A Few Thoughts on MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Ways | Girls Chase

A Few Thoughts on MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Ways

Chase Amante

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MGTOW
What is the MGTOW movement all about? Do MGTOWs reject women, love, sex, and society? Or is the phenomenon about something else...?

On my article “Quit Letting Girls Off the Hook So Much”, Jimbo asks for my take on the MGTOW movement:

That whole MGTOW movement. It seems to have gained steam lately. Their two main talking points are: – Women want to spend their prime years screwing around bad boys and then when they become less desirable they want to settle down with a good man to provide for them. So screw it, I’m not gonna be neither! – Marriage is a trap wherein in a woman grabs her man by the nuts because of all the divorce laws that favor her hugely nowadays and also because of her greedy nature. So screw it, no marriage from this guy!

Yeah, the whole MGTOW thing is an interesting phenomenon.

I’ve clashed with MGTOWs on occasion when they get into the whole ‘rah rah join our cause’ routine... I’m not really the club-joining sort.

But the rah rah MGTOWs aren’t necessarily representative of the movement overall. So what I’d like to do today is take a look at the ‘men going their own way’ movement and share some thoughts on it from a somewhat broader perspective.

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his One Date System.

GET CHASE’S ONE DATE SYSTEM

Comments

Vigkri's picture

Hi Chase,
First and foremost, I would like to thank you for providing us with this awesome content. My question is not related to this article (or any other article for that matter). It is a personal challenge I face from time to time.

Being an Indian, I have a thick English accent, which acts as a turn off for most women I come across. I have improved my fundamentals and deepened my voice, but my accent still hurts my success. Is there any way I could improve it, or should I own the shit up. Please help.

Thanking you,
Vigkri

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Vigkri-

All the Indian men from India I’ve seen who did well with women living in the West just kept their accents and didn’t worry about it. There are accent reduction classes you can take that aim to train you to speak like a local wherever you are, but I don’t see much point if the only goal is to do better with girls.

Think of it like this: if you have tight fundamentals and a solid skill set and process with women, your accent only adds to the charm. Even if you have an accent from a usually-less-desired background, when you walk up brimming with charm and confidence it’s taken as an extra plus, because you aren’t supposed to be cool and sexy, so… you must really have something going on.

I’d not worry about the accent. Just own it / ignore it, and focus on the stuff that matters (fundamentals + game).

Chase

Dionysos's picture

Train your neck dude. Indian guys have very often very small necks (pencil neck).

Abed Sheriff's picture

Once again! Great article. I love your smoothness chase. The way you wrote this made it seem like you were the casual, quiet, calm, observant badass in the leather jacket standing in the corner. I personally think being smooth is the most important thing you taught me. Have yet to buy the spellbinding video due to no access to a debit card ( are MC or visa GC applicable?). But we will get there

Anyway! One thing id like to point out is how well spoken you are! How does one get to that level of words and ability to convey their thought into words?

Reading books? Having time to actually write it down rather than having to speak immediately?

Thanks friend!

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Abed-

Cheers. And on products, yes, we support MasterCard, Visa, Discover, and PayPal – any / all of those work just fine.

Well-spoken-ness comes down in part to being well read, but also in part to studying argumentation. The better you are at structuring arguments and anticipating and heading off objections, the better-spoken you become. You spend a lot of time focusing on how you craft your message (and a lot of time tossing out unsatisfactorily crafted ones).

It’s all kinds of things, like trying to recognize bias in your message and remove it as much as possible, stamping out unhelpful emotion, including helpful/inspirational/motivational emotion, using emotional ups and downs as you speak or write, etc. Lots of tips on storytelling in this article; much of well-spoken-ness revolves around or draws from storytelling:

How to Tell a Story that Rivets and Captivates

Also, you have to be a little obsessive about message structure. You have to hate it when you say something and other people misinterpret the message or assign motives or intentions to you you did not have. You have to want your ability to communicate to be as succinct and far-reaching as possible. And you basically never quit trying to refine your skill set as a communicator further.

Personally, I’ve come to believe one’s ability to communicate is the foremost ability one can possess. The better you are communication, the better you are at syncing up your mind with others’ minds and learning from them or getting them on your side instead of wasting all your time in pointless verbal jousts.

Chase

Jose Tom's picture

"I suppose it’s different for everyone, but for me the term ‘MGTOW’ is irrevocably tied to sexually frustrated men filled with bitterness toward the opposite sex."

You are still uninformed or in denial about female nature and behavior. Get a clue dude. You are not special, you are not going to get that special snowflake who is going to treat you nice forever and ever. You're probably one of those dude who thinks "She's going to look at me after a year of being together the same way she looked at me the first time we met" LTR and marriage are dead. That is my point of being GMOW. Spend some time researching female behaviors and how they truly feel about men and you may see the light. As for sexually frustrated, that can easily be taken care of with escorts, this is about being happy,at peace and stress free. Good luck to any man trying to get that special snowflake, you're gonna need it

EricZombrow's picture

Frustrated yes, sexually denied or frustrated not always.
I look at it from the aspect of resources and potential. Every guy that i grew up with who was married got a divorce. They worked great jobs one started a business landscaping in College before he met his wife, built it up to a huge machine working throughout state parks in two states. Worth Millions, she destroyed him and the courts gave no sympathy that he started it long before he met her. Anither friend also destroyed by false allegation made to resign from a fortune 500 company without evidence he eventually proved she lied but what a nightmare to go through, had to sell his paid off home in legal fees.
My point is Women have changed and use Marriage as a trap, and then attack. Now my day, i wake up refreshed, no one tells me what to do, where we should eat, i do what i want, and in my corner of the World i am not wrong.
I date, i use protection, but i never get into relationships. If at some point i want kids there is adoption or surrogacy

Neal's picture

A related subject is escapism, where men come up with hobbies like math or video games, to distract them from thinking about women all the time.

Hugo's picture

Hey chase, great article!
I have a problem that is a bit unrelated to this topic but still I wanted to get your opinion. I am 20 years old since I was a teenager I was never that good with girls and I never had a real girlfriend because I always felt a bit immature. Fast forward now that I'm 20 I look much better, I dress well and go to the gym so I have a good body that girls compliment me frequently. The problem that I have and that I wanted your opinion on, is that by this history of being bad with girls and never having the attention from them is hurting my game, because when I go out I tend to need validation from girls and when I feel that they're attracted that is enough for me and I don't continue the interaction because the validation that they give me and when I know they're attracted makes me feel more complete and I don't close the girls. Is this problem caused by a lack of confidence or simply because I'm inexperienced?

Thanks.

T's picture

Hi,
I am not Chase, but for me it sounds that you have no REALLY defined goal with women.
What do you REALLY want with women?
Excerpt: "I feel that they're attracted that is enough for me and I don't continue the interaction because the validation that they give me and when I know they're attracted makes me feel more complete and I don't close the girls."
That is a goal and it's fine. But is that the goal you really want with women?

T

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hugo-

Check out this article – should sum it up for you nicely:

Why It’s Bad to Want to Be Liked Too Much

Chase

Jimbo's picture

Thanks for tackling the subject, Chase. As always, you didn't disappoint. Let's hope it goes viral and makes many of them reconsider their retirement from the dating/reproductive scene, and perhaps even bring up their opinion of the opposite sex a notch or two.

The part about the incels who suddenly disappear from the manosphere the moment they get a girlfriend reminded me of the saying: "Socialist until you get rich. Feminist until you get married. Atheist until the plane starts going down." Though I'm sure there are many exceptions to these.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Jimbo-

Indeed.

That’s one of the problems with the Internet. It amplifies minority extreme voices but silences (by simply not attracting / encouraging to post) the majority balanced ones.

Out in the real world, everyone sees extreme, dramatic teenagers and young people (I was there too), but you look around and see all the chilled out older people who used to be that way and got over it and you know they’re just passing through a phase. Online, age is invisible and the chill people are absent or not motivated to jump in and mix it up, so you get a bunch of extreme people on both sides yelling at each other.

And then they move on and quit participating.

Partly ties back to the end of history illusion – people assume their views now are the same ones they’ll hold forever. Rarely are, though.

Chase

John smith's picture

MGTOW is a very deep philosophy. To truely understand it requires reading countless articles and watching countless videos and spending countless hours in reflection. It took almost a year for the message to sink in for me. Believe it or not, MGTOW is not really about women. It is more about economics (all types of resources, how they are accumulated, and how they are expended). Women are often the catalyst that causes MGTOW to find a man, but they have nothing to do with the end goal of the philosophy. The path of MGTOW is closely akin to the greiving process, the goal of which is acceptance. But MGTOW offers and will eventually deliver a step past acceptance where a whole new world opens for a man. I won't attempt an explanation. But I will say that almost without exception the detractors of MGTOW have no idea what they are talking about because they haven't done the hard work necessary to understand it. Criticizing without understanding is a common human failing. If you are going to criticize, please at least understand the subject beyond the superficial level. Thanks, and Cheers.

Steve Donald's picture

I think you have largely missed the point of MGTOW here, although you have focussed on an aspect of it, the frustrated men. What you have glossed over is the main reason, that in marriage, Mens lives are at serious risk and interaction with women at that level is very dangerous. I know people now locked in marriage who are a woman's decision away from having there lives completely destroyed, unable to see there kids much and nothing more than a useful financial tool to help fund a females family aspirations regardless of whether you are present. Your presence in the whole family equation is no longer necessary and the number of fatherless kids is on the rise. The point I am making is that no matter how wonderful you think you are, how smooth your game is or how 'alpha' you are, the system of family courts and laws in marriage will reduce you to nothing more than a financial commodity and useful sperm donor. This is the crux of MGTOW , it's a 'phenomena', just something that happens naturally when self preservation kicks in and the odds are stacked against a certain group. I know a guy who is great with women, he would agree that MGTOW are just silly frustrated men. He has two kids now that he visits on the weekend. His ex has possibly never worked a day in her life and who can blame her, she doesn't need to, he pays her rent, pays everything.. he has that look now of a man who wishes he had never been born, only young as well, he never realised. The suicide rate for men is so high, simply because in society, men are the sacrificial lambs whose well being is secondary to female comfort. Men are simply waking up to this fact and saying.. 'Not for me thanks' .. you can shame that all you like, call them little whiney children, but it will continue happening regardless

Franco Lombardi's picture

S.D.,

We understand the nature of MGTOW, and we understand all facets of it.

Yes, a woman can totally divorce-rape you if you decide to marry her. Is the fact that you married her the reason she divorce-raped you? Absolutely not. There maybe be a correlation, but there is not causation.

A woman will only use the aspects of you that you present as useful to her. However, if those uses are: strong, dominant man; sexy lover; mature leader; good father... then she will want you for you eternally, and she will sacrifice whatever is necessary to have you and your hand in marriage. She will be more loyal and faithful than your own family, and she will present the absolute best side of herself throughout that marriage.

On the other hand, if a man marries a woman and then shows the following characteristics: weakness; poor lover ability; submissive; and/or a terrible father skills, then she will take whatever she can get from you (i.e. your money/resources in a divorce) and use it to find a better man.

The main point to focus on in that last sentence is use it to find a better man. A woman is always looking for the best man she can reasonably get. If you are not that man, then divorce is a better option for her than leading a life of mediocrity with a mediocre man. She does not care about your established wealth or your devotion to her for years -- your devotion to her only means something if she respects the man you've presented yourself as, and it only means something if she feels like you'll continue to be that man for the foreseeable future.

So yes, we understand MGTOW. And our response to the MGTOW individuals is this article here:

She'll Do What She Has To To Get What She Wants

- Franco

bbelle's picture

All these PUA techniques are a waste of time even when they work (and they do most of the time, but never as well as advertised btw). Changing your voice and personality just to please some random chick seems a great idea.
The only way it would be worth it is if men would really find pleasure in applying the 168 rules of seduction detailed on this site and others (but I suspect that 99% of men would rather play videos games than making fools of themselves on tinder and in bars).
As a married man, I'll give you a heads up: Good luck on keeping up your game for 15-30 years until she hits the wall and she becomes loyal. She will take you to the cleaners if she wants to do it no matter what. Most bad boys end up divorced and paying child support, remember that.

Howard S's picture

Franco: However, if those uses are: strong, dominant man; sexy lover; mature leader; good father... then she will want you for you eternally

You guys don’t really understand what is going on, you still don’t get nature of women. You can be all of this and the woman can still dump you with no regret. After a while she will get used to you as such man, and she will get bored. You can be Superman and she will still get bored with you. Today, good looking woman is exposed to many guys on daily basis. There is much less slut shaming, there is easy access to tens of dating sites with thousands of available guys. Women can walk out out of marriage or relationship any time they feel like to, without any consequences. There are bunch of available guys where she works, or city where she lives. Not all of these guys are weak with poor lover ability; submissive; and/or a terrible father skills. You are very wrong.

You don’t get that women today don’t need any man, no matter how supper he may appear or believe. Women are also looking for variety, many different guys.

Black South African MGTOW's picture

Man, thanks for this comment. I took the red pill last year in October and it's been great since. I moved to a bigger city in the new year(2017) and a friend of mine who has a girlfriend convinced me to live with a lady who lived opposite his apartment for my 1st 2 months in the new city just so I could get on my feet. I took the offer as I was quite desperate to settle in. She agreed to me moving in and about 2 days into that arrangement I tried to warn her that female tricks aren't going to work on me and she laughed it off. She is doing quite well for herself working at the bank and all. She is also 4 years older than me and she has a kid which my friend didn't tell me might be moving halfway through my 2nd month in her apartment. She bought me everything you can think of to try and 'civilise' me e.g. Shower gels, cologne even some expensive restaurant food at times. I told her a week later that I still don't want to have sex with her a nd she flipped because she didn't understand why. I said "well coz I'm in my early stages of mgtow" and she still didn't understand so I let her be. I told her the next day, during a random conversation, that my older brother is as gay as they come and that sort of put her at ease knowing that my reasoning for not having sex with her was because I had a gay brother who might've influenced me otherwise but that didn't make her stop the leoparding around the house. She continued to wear very revealing clothes thinking I might change my mind.

Whoah then her son arrived halfway through the 2nd month and she could see a good stepdad in me because I do forex trading so I just stay at home and work on my computer. I started asking for my refundable entry deposit 10 days before the end of the 2 month leasing period and she acted as if she didn't know she had to pay me back. Asking me shit like, "How's the apartment search going?" And I would just ignore her and insist on my money and she'd come back from work angry and she would do some crazy stuff man. Most interestingly though, she hasn't deleted my contact details on any social media platform since I moved out. What's up with that shit? I asked myself, why wasn't it as easy for her to completely cut out a guy who didn't bow down to her as all the other girls I had dated in my younger years did? Then it struck me... Sandman's video about women in general really not supporting Gay culture. I mean even after I told her that my brother's Gay she still thought something in her sexual value would attract me and that my brother's teachings would be quickly forgotten but you know what... I'm not Gay just single, my brother's Gay and very wealthy. See women are beginning to see that LGBTI is nothing without the G. Otherwise who would fund the marches? Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that people like Milo Yiannapolous are the future and they make these women cringe because they are Gay men they'd naturally be attracted to but guess what they are either Gay or single

Dr's picture

Steve: "The point I am making is that no matter how wonderful you think you are, how smooth your game is or how 'alpha' you are, the system of family courts and laws in marriage will reduce you to nothing more than a financial commodity and useful sperm donor"

Agreed with Steve, there are still lots of delusions about MGTOW, as well as PUA and seduction out there.

Average normal guy would have to study seduction for years to be really that good as Franco depicted: strong, dominant man; sexy lover; mature leader; good father... then she will want you for you eternally, and she will sacrifice whatever is necessary to have you and your hand in marriage...

I'm not saying that Franco is wrong, all these are good characteristics, however even then there is no such guarantee, you are still a cheap sperm donor. In reality there already are many guys just like that, and they still get screwed by the system.

Also, in reality many guys can't be this mysterious traveler who moves from place to place, have some source of unlimited income, and always gets the best women available. Many guys have real job, they get home tired, all the money they have they spend on food, housing and car, debt, never mind if they are married and have kids. These guys are the real backbone of our society, thanks to them we can enjoy relative peace and freedom

The Black Knight's picture

Bingo and on point. There is an over 50% divorce rate and 70% are initiated by women. The courts cater to women. The man cheats on his wife he pays alimony. The woman cheats and he still pays alimony. There remains the "wage gap" argument even when the actual numbers clearly show that women work less hours and women do not enter the high paid technical fields. Not to mention this nonsensical propagation of a "rape culture" on campus that doesn't exist. But enough of the hydra head harpies say it's so and the rest follow. So when a few of us are questioning whether we should reconsider suffrage--that's why. Women vote emotionally--maybe there should be a multi phasic test before we allow a woman to vote since they show clearly--since the vote of prohibition that they cannot vote with logic--mostly, not all but mostly.

Women have destroyed the military by attempting to portray "oh yes we can" when they cannot compete with a man. The physical fitness test is not the same for women hence you have never competed with men on any level globally. In the workforce? Please, women have caused complete chaos due to their illogic and irrational behavior of overfixation of what isn't important. Really, anyone want to argue that globally? Women are terrible leaders who would rather be social than focus on their jobs-note--it isn't men who organize your stupid pitch in potlucks at work every other week.

Oh and the single mother--well that's worked out hasn't it. Check the stats on prison populations. Not to mention the snowflake mentality of participation trophies and safe spaces--all due to the feminization of men by women, mainly female single mothers.

It's bad enough of all these stupid, illogical anti reasoned tenets that make up the modern female exist now. But to want to live with this amplified intolerable harpy that represents the western woman? You're kidding me right? No, can't imagine why we want nothing to do with women. Oh and by the way I was a former kickboxer and still at 49 am in terrific shape and remain at my fighting weight AND have a lot of money and am half retired. Do you, Chase, really think I DIDN'T have a background with women? Do you really think I can't get a 30 year old hottie today? It isn't worth it anymore. Obviously I don't like the western woman anymore--and that is a lot they created. But Chase, it really comes down to risk analysis. I would never chance my assets with a female when the field isn't level.

Van Halen's picture

Facebook offered to start freezing women's reproductive eggs in order to make them work as efficiently as men without children into their 40's. Now why wasn't this a world headline? Hahahaha good times these hey

Will Winters's picture

I think its great.
No, women aren't that great. At least not for the hoops guys have to jump through to get a girl to have sex with him.
And the life-ending consequences he faces afterwards?
Thats just crazy!
Not to mention how guys are supposed to be the assertive and more aggressive, then they're not, but then they get viewed as weak, so then they're supposed to be aggressive again, but that leads to being insensitive, and so on, and so on...
I'm glad to see teen boys taking a stand and making a decision on the pitfalls of todays sexual relations.
Women don't want to be objectified?
Wish granted.

MGTOW's picture

I don't think you quite understand the concept of MGTOW. Which is understandable, but to write 50 page essay about the topic you are clueless about shows your lack of education in the subject matter. Many of the claims you make are simple rhetoric of men that identify as MGTOW. By definition MGTOW CAN be married, they can date, they can have girlfriends. MGTOW can do ANYTHING they want. It is a simple declaration of freedom. A declaration that you will not be a willing stooge to a system that uses men as a disposable utility. A declaration that you will not be used and abused by the narcissistic sociopathic women we call modern females. You see, you make all these claims from the stand point of the golden child. You are the beta simp to your mother. Therefor for you to see 95% of women for what they are is impossible. You will die defending women because you are in fact a mothers boy simp. You can't fathom a world where women do wrong and you write 50 page essays attacking a group of men you know nothing about. I've had sex with over 400 women and I'm not even 30. Heck I'm not even 29. I had my own business at 19 and 3 different Audi's by 21. I had women whenever I wanted. However I wanted. I also had a sociopathic malignant narcissist mother than used and abused my father through out my life. I saw exactly how modern american women treat men, while maintaining their innocent do good appearance to the rest of society. She cut my fathers balls off and used me and my sister as black mail to keep him around. Witnessing the gold digger women myself, as well as the malignant lying narcissistic sociopaths claiming to love me, as well as the cheating slutty whores that claimed to be in a relationship with me, it's easy to see the truth of female nature. And the REALITY that 95% of women are in fact like this. I have lived it. I have experienced it. Do I hate females? No. I am banging a beautiful latina girl that is 7 years younger than me. I don't treat her like a spoiled entitled princess. I speak exactly like I am now to her and she loves it. It turns her on. She knows that the minute she starts playing any games she is out the door. The first time she starts trying to manipulate, lie, or anything in between, she is gone. That is the difference between a MGTOW man and a beta boy like you. And why you feel the need to attack out of jealousy of not having any balls yourself. You probably won't even post this comment.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

My heart goes out to you, amigo. I can see you're hurting. You had a rough childhood.

I'm sorry this piece affected you the way it did. Projecting your childhood pains and experiences onto me (i.e., what you experienced with your mother... so you attack your online opponent as being the same as what you are/were) is not a good way to argue. Nor is going off into tangents about how successful you are (particularly when the claims are large, and the evidence is nil. I'm an entrepreneur pick up artist; half my friends are multimillionaires with 3-digit notch counts. You do not talk like any guy in this category I know). These just make you seem like you're throwing a temper tantrum to anyone who isn't 100% sympathetic to your view.

So hey, it's a New Year, 2018. May you find peace and happiness this year, and come to let go of the sour strings you're holding onto from a messed up upbringing.

I know you don't want to hear it, but the world's not as ugly as your start in it may have led you to think. The world's a mirror though - if you carry ugliness around with you, ugliness is what you will see wherever you look. You won't start to see the good stuff - or meet the good people - until you let that monkey go.

Happy 2018.

~Chase

Jimbo's picture

If we can't base the MGTOW definition on those who identify as such, then who are we gonna base it on? The subjects of women spending their youthful years chasing bad boys and of gold diggers having the laws tilted on their side to divorce-rape their men are all topics expounded upon ad nauseum in those MGTOW videos on YT and such. Aren't those "the source", the main spokesmen of the movement? Sounds like your whole definition of MGTOW is, "women are bad."

You say you can be one but still sleep with, date, and marry women, provided you remind them every now and then how shitty their gender. Well, if you do that, then you're not really going your own way, you're just expressing sour grapes.

KingChris 's picture

The divorce rate in the United States is at 50 percent. Millions of men lost their homes, children, retirement accounts, emotional peace, and precious years of their life for this ideal that marriage is the end all and be all for happiness. I don't necessarily agree with MGTOW but it does not take a genius to realize where the source of the anger and fear to follow society demands. Just open your mind and think about it. Why should anyone sacrifice their dreams and desires to conform to society. Why should women or anyone outside of your own self determine what makes you truly happy. I witness first hand the devastation women can cause. Some women do not even have the courage to look you in the face and say they want a divorce. Many do it thousands of miles away with a lawyer's letter. In 2018 Marriage is a construct that no longer works in this day of age. A man will always lose far more in assets and emotional turmoil than women. I have seen first hand how a divorce destroyed a friend of mine. He lost everything including his 2 children. The 2 children grew up in young women and they have no relationship with their father. He took a knife to his throat at that was the end of it. I will say this bluntly F***** relationships. My own parents have been married for 35 years and they are miserable. It is not worth it.

T's picture

ChrisKing
these are extreme situations that characterize someone. I am a German and as far as I know we don't have such a movement in this manifestation. But in my opinion it depends on the mindset of a man. I am ok with MGTOW as long as you say I am a Man Going My Own Way to find myself and I don't need a woman therefor and to be lucky. But I seems to me that a lot of men are bitter men and that is a kind of self destruction. In this case MGTOW is not more than a response of defiance that's no use to man or beast and at least men. Women are not the the hub of the universe but we are enamored to them thats nature. So lets go for them in a controlled, confident but nevertheless passionate way. And....... Nobody has to marry :-)
T.

The Real Truth Is's picture

Well since the women of today have really changed for the worst of all that will certainly explain it. And now you have all these very pathetic loser women with their careers that think they're all that which their not anyway. Most women now unfortunately just don't have any respect for many of us men at all since they have such very horrible manners as well altogether now. God forbid for many of us good men just to say good morning or hello to a woman that we would really like to meet which has become very extremely dangerous for us now since they will be very nasty to us and walk away. And when you compare these very pathetic loser low life women today to the old days which back then when most of the women at that time were real ladies and totally the opposite compared to now. It is very obvious why many of us men nowadays are going Mgtow since the women of today are just awful now more than ever unfortunately which will save save us good innocent men a lot of pain, misery, torture, and keep plenty of extra money in our pockets too.

EricZombrow's picture

I will never let a Women destroy me in Divorce and Family Courts. Any Man dumb enough now to look at the marriage and family laws and still sign up to lose half to sixty percent of his assets and resources then pay support in some states like California for life if a marriage lasts ten years, is a fool. Marriage is dead Feminism and the liberal State ideology ruined it.
If divorce went back to 50/50 of current assets and thats it i would consider it.

Marius's picture

I think there are some analytical methods used here that guided the author to the wrong conclusions and assumptions. One mistake is to equate loner and MGTOW. The problem with this comparison is like comparing a memory chip of a computer with a software program. MGTOW is on a philosophical layer while loner is on the physical layer. While it's true that many MGTOWs may be loners, the two are not the same. a loner is a person who go life solo with minimal relationship interactions. There is no indication that MGTOW is about that. The analytical approach seeked the common denominator of elements of MGTOW that stood out for the author and not for the MGTOW. Hence when you take that common denominator you get, "I want it all my way" while that is not what MGTOW is about for the MGTOW. the various themes may be popular in MGTOW literature, but does not create the common denominator the author derived.

The common denominator is best explained by Dr Helen Smith. It is described as a cost vs benefit analysis modern men who free them from the indoctrination of old traditions and religions do. MGTOW is very progressive by nature. Marriage between men and women is a patriarchal construct and its not radical to think that if you destroy the patriarchy that the mechanisms that was responsible for its necessity will crumble and the construct will crumble with it. Marriage failure is an indication of this transition and that a hybrid model seems to be ineffective. We need to understand that if you change any system there will be gains and losses. Patriarchal societies maintained their status by pairing men and women where the man have the control. Matriarchal societies are clans and social groups living together. Hence we see friends living together, we see marriages falling apart as the patriarchy is destroyed by feminism. To me this is typical and expected that those who just casually and socially live together will get a better deal today. But in the transition phase conservative thinkers hold on to tradition and progressive thinkers look at the new opportunities and threats and organised to optimize to the new environment.

We can turn a rugby feeld slowly into a soccer field, and those who insist to play by the rules of rugby would increasingly get penalties and realise they do not score any points. So the progressive person have on of two choices, learn the rules of soccer or go pick up you ball and go home or get another hobby. Feminism has changed the playing field but its irrational to think that rugby player will now get a liking in soccer or that they will all adapt to the new game. Its expected that some will and some wont and those who wont who recognize the change will make another plan.

If enough has changed in society over time, a sensible person would forget tradition and religion for a moment, and re-calculate the SWOT diagram to determine if it still makes sense or is it in your best interest? is it working for you? how does the benefits and risks compare now? Once you calculate the decrease value women have for men and the increased risks and demands on men and factor it into other progressive concepts propagated by feminism such as "women need a man like a fish needs a bicycle" where this declaration of independence and separatism is deemed progressive. It is typical that a new result will be derived.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you raise the price on a product while its reliability decreases and new alternatives are invented that the sales of that product will plummet. MGTOW hashtag seems to create awareness about the social sift and that old traditions must be reevaluated where special focus is placed on the obvious rise in risks men take with marriage and also the decreasing benefit modern women hold for men as womens roles also become obsolete.

Men do not need women to live a good life anymore because women gave up their unique roles and society replaced those roles with machines and services available to every man. Women became disposable in that sense. Feminism took the position that everything women do and meen for men must be stopped because men benefit from women that way. But then created a void and the market place and other innovations then rush to fill the void. washing machines, microwave ovens, porn, video games, home theater, ready made meals, social media, pubs around every corner, more single guys who can bond and maintain social lives with each other. All these came to help fill the void left by feminism who took women out of unique roles they served for men. If you remove those roles only an idiot would think that everything else will not change accordingly.

So MGTOW is more about a re-calculation of the cost/benefit analysis consistent to progressive philosophy.
The independence of women took advantage off this idea for 50 years already. With an ongoing feminist movement shaping the world it is not odd, but typical that men would re-calculate their opportunities, threats, strengths and weaknesses relative and as the results change, so should the decisions and objectives change accordingly. MGTOW is typical and not odd. Infact there are about 1000 times more men living by MGTOW than those you see in the MGTOW community. Its a reactive phenomena transforming into philosophy as men adapt to the new environment in a typical way.

Jimbo's picture

Great analysis!

T's picture

Hi,

there are some points I absolutly degree but also some I absolutly disagree.

Excerpt: "The problem with this comparison is like comparing a memory chip of a computer with a software program. MGTOW is on a philosophical layer while loner is on the physical layer."

If you compare it in such a way then I will compare it with running Windows 10 on a Intel 8086. It simply does'n't work. So you can have a wonderful philosophy, if men don't get it or simply are not able to follow it isn't worth the paper it is written on. The same with MGTOW. A very good thing if you want to find your own way and if you have the personal resources for it (Intel Core i7-8700K ;-) ) . But a lot of men haven't (Intel 8086). For them it is a replacement and valve for their bitterness towards women.
Don't get me wrong. I absolutly agree with your last two paragraphs. BUT: it is a big difference between what men are able to do with regard to their possibilities and what they see and feel from their point of view ( the same with feminism by the way). And they see that they want to mate and if they don't come along with it they withdraw and/or become bitter. Not good. From this point of view this very plays in the cards of MGTOW (and even feminsm): to groom men who take responsibility for their lives and one important factor is a satisfied love and sex live accepting and enjoing strong women (whatever strong means).

T.

T's picture

Hi,

there are some points I absolutly degree but also some I absolutly disagree.

Excerpt: "The problem with this comparison is like comparing a memory chip of a computer with a software program. MGTOW is on a philosophical layer while loner is on the physical layer."

If you compare it in such a way then I will compare it with running Windows 10 on a Intel 8086. It simply does'n't work. So you can have a wonderful philosophy, if men don't get it or simply are not able to follow it isn't worth the paper it is written on. The same with MGTOW. A very good thing if you want to find your own way and if you have the personal resources for it (Intel Core i7-8700K ;-) ) . But a lot of men haven't (Intel 8086). For them it is a replacement and valve for their bitterness towards women.
Don't get me wrong. I absolutly agree with your last two paragraphs. BUT: it is a big difference between what men are able to do with regard to their possibilities and what they see and feel from their point of view ( the same with feminism by the way). And they see that they want to mate and if they don't come along with it they withdraw and/or become bitter. Not good. From this point of view this site very plays in the cards of MGTOW (and even feminsm): to groom men who take responsibility for their lives and one important factor is a satisfied love and sex live accepting and enjoing strong women (whatever strong means).

T.

Marius's picture

Hi T
The solution in my view is simple, if MGTOW is not for you or a man don't get it, then perhaps it just means it's not for him. Then he should get a wife and happy life. I don't think that any philosophy can fit the world view of every person and thank God it doesn't. As I wrote; MGTOW is more a thing that get discovered by like minded people which means that MGTOW hardly try to change men to their view because it's mistakenly explained as a movement, then its criticized for not being a proper movement. MGTOW is not a movement, it lacks any manifesto, centralized organisation to be a movement. That's why I regard it as purely a philosophy, a philosophy that works for some men and not for others. Its like my example suggest, if you transform a rugby field to a soccer field then some men will continue to try to play rugby, but increasingly get penalties and score no point, other men my enjoy soccer or even like it more than rugby and other will say this is not for me, pick up their ball and go do something else. So sure there is a big element of personal direction here. But what I do normaly find fairly obvious is. that people who are not MGTOW who talk about MGTOW usually come across as very uninformed and seem to miss the point MGTOW is about for the guys who follow it.

I think the same holds true for the soccer players who see some guys pick up their ball and go home perhaps as losers etc. But I also dont think feminism is about hating men, I don't think all of feminism is harmful or that all feminists are bad people, I just recognize the way feminism changed the world and that men must recalculate, whatever answer a man come up with is fine, but at least recalculate, reevaluate the society you find yourself today, think about the pros and cons, the risks and benefits and renew your position if you have not done so. Because I dont say take you ball and go home, I just say stop playing rugby on the new soccer field because it will not serve you well, not in family courts and not with the culture. So as a MGTOW. I dont hate feminists, I just acknowledge how they changed things and that I need to change my lifes objected accordingly in a way that works better and more efficient for me. But of cause it is not for all men.

I just caution men to be careful to try and interpret and explain a philosophy you yourself do not believe in, because the odds are that you miss it in the eyes of those who do believe in it is very high, that almost apply to any philosophy including feminism.

It stands to reason that if you are bitter about the choices in life, you make like going MGTOW, then its obviously not for you, that brings me to the point that I doubt in any intelligent being that MGTOW men are bitter about going MGTOW, they may be bitter about other things that bother them they speak up about. But if they are bitter about being MGTOW, then they must stop. But it seems like a misunderstanding that MGTOW makes men bitter or MGTOW men are bitter. But some have real concerns and for people not to acknowledge some of the concerns perhaps expands the philosophy which could potentially lead to an organised movement.

But sure there will be some men who dont mind getting married and have kids, they dont mind risking a devorce in 2 or 3 years time or are just naive. They dont mind having to go though family courts and pay their lives for kid that gets taken away from them while false allegations his loving wife is making to better her case. Some say not all women are like that, some say enough women are like that not to risk it, and some say its irrelevant if all women are the same or not, all family courts are the same.
Some look at micro factors for decision making which they can control, MGTOW are more likely to look at the macro factors they cannot control. So sure people have different views and I don't think MGTOW want to change men who are happy with their family choices.

But its not surprising that MGTOW may worry if these men gave it a proper thought and if these men know the fine print of the contract. But I know not all men will share this philosophy and perhaps its a good thing. because MGTOW needs case studies to examine and use as reference LOL.

Most males up to 40 around me are MGTOW without following the MGTOW group, most dont even know what it is. But most men can stay single and go their own way without a community to help them do so. But you do get a smaller groups who has the intense need to express their experiences and issues with those who understand them who are like minded people with much the same interests. That is the MGTOW online community, but most MGTOW men do not take part much in such communities its a small minority who seeks expression and interaction on things they find difficult to express outside the community.

You cannot write in the NYTimes how women screw men over without massive political and media backlash, so those "politically incorrect" discussions has to happen in isolated communities, but for some its important to be able to talk about it an discuss it as those forms part of life changing experiences, often devastating experiences. For outside observes it seems like a cult or something perhaps, and its fine; up to the point they claim to know what MGTOW is about and white about it as a bunch of bitter men hatting women, reiterating why men cannot discuss issues with women outside such a community to begin with as the mainstream culture do not tolerate it well.

Lukey's picture

You seem to think all MGTOW's are ultimately loners, but that is NOT the essence of MGTOW. It is actually about not allowing women in any way (especially via the state) to have control of you - and the marriage contract (via divorce in our man-hating court system) is the worst way of allowing that control.
You can have relationships with women and indeed everybody else, you just don't take any s**t from them, if they try it you offer them the door...
Now if you REALLY want kids you have to compromise a bit, because you are then open to child support - and women WILL take maximum advantage of that if you are not paying for them as part of a relationship.
The main thing is don't deliberately put yourself in harm's way from a woman - especially by adhering to bulls**t cultural norms like marriage.

MGTOW mikey's picture

If i could go back in time and speak to my younger 19 year old self I would give him this advice: "make women your absolute bottom priority." Focus on building a life that you are proud of, develop a skill that is congruent to your nature and life will get better each year. I instead chased women for many years. The great chase was really what kept me going, the sex/relationships I got were never fulfilling. Looking back on my pua days I see a sex thirsty guy that was willing to invest a large amount of time into satisfying his base desires. in 2018 hypergamy is more rampant than ever (just look at tinder). A woman has access to attractive men 24/7 regardless of her own SMV. The natural result is that the top 5-10% of guys are sleeping with a majority of attractive women. This isn't me complaining, this is fact. If I was in a woman's shoes it would only make sense to choose the best I could get in regards to mating. SO where does that leave you? Well If you're anything like I was you are a decent, average-to above average looking male who can think for himself. The simple question is this: "Is the time and effort necessary to date these top tier women worth it?" For some the answer may still be "yes of course it is", but for me the cost benefit analysis has led me to pursue the mgtow lifestyle. Minimal effort to date/sleep with women with a primary focus on my own wants and desires. It is ultimately up to you my friend, but just understand that the trade off is always your time, and time is limited. What I ultimately realized was that through all my chasing of tail I did not become a better man by my own standards, but by the standards society and women had set for me. Health is important to me, I am not going to go out drinking 3-4 nights a week to sleep with a woman below my caliber with possibility of contracting an STD/false accusations/pregnancy/ etc. It's just not worth it. I am sure many of you already know the downsides of marriage. But anyways, this just the perspective of a former pua dude turned mgtow. Take what you will from it. Best of luck to you.

Ron (from Florida)'s picture

I used to be very miserable due to my "severe-lack-of-female-attention". But after being alive for over 40 years, I consider myself VERY lucky to be one of the most "un-wanted" men in my country (U.S.A.); words cannot even describe HOW blessed I am to be completely "woman-free", especially since I never have to worry about things such as catching an S.T.D., being cheated on, alimony, child support, and "baby-daddy" issues. I am ever so grateful to "God" to be overweight, disabled, and shy...it keeps me safe from harm!!!

Marius's picture

Ron you are blessed I might not be overweight, disabled or from USA, im from South Africa. But we share the same path to a great life. Im about your age engineer and business owner, never married, no kids and just this morning i deleted a woman who wanted me to spend money on her in exchange for sex, i told her to get lost. No self respecting man will go that route. She asked why i dont want a relationship. I told her because i like to maintain control over my own life and therefore keep family courts and feminists as far away as possible. She said, she wants a relationship because she is tired of games and drama, i said i dont want a relationship because im tired of games and drama ;) but I was MGTOW long before i knew what it was, i only had to know what feminism was to become MGTOW

Jimbo's picture

When you said she wanted you to spend money on her for sex, you mean she outright suggested you buy her stuff for right off the bat? If so, then damn, some of these chicks are getting bolder.

Marius Dumas's picture

Hey it gets much worse than that. One example a friend of mine married a nice blonde. After 2 years they decide to have kids. She gave birth to twins. While in hospital she tell him she is lesbian and she only wanted the kids so she wants to divorce now. She got the kids and he must pay child support. His rights is zero

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