What's the Endgame for a Playboy? | Girls Chase

What's the Endgame for a Playboy?

Chase Amante

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playboy endgame
You won't stay young, wild, and energetic forever. So what happens to the old playboy when age catches up to him? Does he just fade away?

Under my article "Male vs. Female Mating Motivations Laid Bare", a reader comments:

hard question to ask, but it just seems having children or getting married is a no win situation, if she wants to she can put you on child support or divorce you when she feels like it. with that being said is there a way to have kids and not be put on child support? is there a way to not have kids as an older man and not get looked at as weird? I'm actually really interested in the not paying child support part. what's your plan for yourself Chase logically with this stuff? do you plan to have kids and get married? or just have kids? I liked to know your process of what you think older you would do with women.

I feel like making an "Old players never die, they just..." joke, but can't think of a good one.

"They just NEXT away"?

Nah, too obscure.

Well, anyway. The "what's the endgame?" question is a valid one for the modern playboy.

I'm going to skip the child support one, because, well, it's not realistic for most guys. Children are costly, and someone has to pay for them. Women usually can't pay for them themselves (some rich women excepted, but there's problems with targeting rich women to sire offspring with, then peace out, that I won't go into here). If the father won't/can't pay, the burden then falls to society, simply so the child doesn't die or end up scrounging for scraps on the street like what you see in less developed countries. So most societies have laws mandating fathers pay for their own children, to avoid having it come out of everyone else's pockets. There's no way to get around that in most developed societies without just being a straight-up dead-beat dad who knocks chicks up then runs away and hides so they can't collect child support, then runs away and hides again if he's found and hit with back child support payments. Which I guess you could do, but it's trash behavior, and you're hopefully on this site to learn how to improve your life, rather than lead a trashier one.

The child support question aside, that "what's the endgame?" question, now that's an interesting question.

Because, well... it isn't clear what the endgame for most men IS any longer.

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his One Date System.

GET CHASE’S ONE DATE SYSTEM

Comments

Risenin2019's picture

Grew up repressed up until about my early 20s, even had to go to a local school due to overbearing parenting. I have to say this is eye opening because I grew up in one of the most fake, morally self-righteous, two-faced, and goody two-shoe part of the US, the good ol deep south. 

Confused me too, it seems like the way American society works is:

High school -> Have sex and explore the other sex more

College -> Go wild and have tons of sex

Right out of college -> Okay settle down, you're nearing your end now

25 or so -> Have kids and a marriage

It made no sense to me either, you're finally rich when it comes to finances and have more freedom now if you did it right. They say men peak in their 30s or so, well why are Dan Bilzerians so rare? Why is hedonism and sleeping around with lots of women only acceptable in college and high school, why not in the "real world"? More men, especially those who are now finally hitting their prime and didn't have the golden spoon in their mouth like some rich frat guy did, should want to sow their wild oats but why is this idea so unheard of?

I then realized that the "social pressure" you talk about is society having to pander to the losers and the norm. The ugly chick who has no man or is very limited in her options or the average guy who doesn't have what it takes to make it in the game, society has to at some degree pander to him. Marriage was invented to keep the losers who would otherwise not even be reproducing calm so disaster does not strike (large scale Eliot Rodgers). 

What really gets me in the player path is the lack of camraderie with fellow men who also pursue that path that you do not get with age.  A guy who peaks in college can get it with his bros but a guy who peaks in his 30s is heading into it as a lone ranger, only at the envy of most men who made nothing of their lives and want him to fail. I have missed out on too much to consider monogamy and that chip on my shoulder will always be there. Good shit though Chase!

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Risen (or, should I say Oh Pry, I presume?)-

I think you missed big chunks of the post.

People don't pair-bond and enter into romantic unions due to social pressure. This is highly normal, near-ubiquitous human behavior.

Dan Blizerian is getting married now... and it is not because women on Instagram shamed him for his lifestyle. Nor is that the reason most people marry (celebrities and non-celebrities alike).

Your own background of rebelling against a strict upbringing likely clouds that from you. Most people aren't you -- they aren't dealing with a huge amount of social pressure. When they enter into a long-term pair-bond, it is because they desire it.

Lamenting the lack of camaraderie among players also misses this point. People grow. Things they do to go from one stage of life to another they don't continue with in the later stages. There is a lot of broken continuity in most people's lives.

You can have camaraderie among a military unit. But once the unit is no longer serving together, the soldiers from that unit grow apart. They'll still be friends, brothers... but they see each other once a year and barely keep in touch.

Having a group of party friends is like this. You and your boys all go out because you're single and want to (ultimately) get laid. Or at least they do (for you, I know, it is something different).

One by one your buddies are going to find girls they like more than the others, and decide they want to keep those girls. And once they have them, the motivation to go out isn't there anymore.

You have a strong need for social acceptance, which drives you out to nightlife and partying. People who have already passed that stage (which is most people by 30) do not have that same driver. They also don't have the sex (men) or attention (women) drivers they once had. So partying loses its appeal.

That said, there are exceptions. But any normal friend group, the friends are going to drop off one-by-one as they age. They pair up, and stop wanting to go out.

You're still their friend. Maybe their brother. But going out to party is just too costly an activity. They might do it once in a blue moon for the sake of showing their brother some love, but sacrificing their nights, spending a bunch of money, getting trashed and feeling awful the next day, waking up late for work or whatever else they have going on, and putting strain on their relationship by going out with their bachelor party friend to somewhere that explicitly exists for people to meet singles and hook up is a very costly activity for them. No matter how much they love you, they just cannot do it all that much. They get nothing out of it, aside from seeing you, their friend, and sacrifice much.

Here's an idea: if the camaraderie is what's truly important to you, why not make a shift?

Men in relationships maintain friendships too. They just engage in activities less costly to their lives or relationships.

For instance, I'll bet if you put together a barbecue on a Sunday afternoon and invited all your old going-out buddies and their girlfriends/wives, they'd love it... it could even be a regular thing.

Ultimately, it is a little ironic to me that you want them to, in effect, sacrifice their own personal happiness, relationships, and productivity to come out with you, lamenting their lack of camaraderie with you... which ultimately, if they heard you say that, would amount to you socially pressuring them to do something they don't want.

I think the truth is you don't really care about camaraderie at all... if I understand it right.

You'd have no interest in, say, that weekly Sunday barbecue with your old pals and their women.

What you want is an image... this image of the cool guy living the Instagram lifestyle... something other people are going to look at and feel jealous... where they are going to look at you and say "Whoa, what a cool guy that is."

And the thing to realize there is that that is a strong motivator for you to go to party places, but the people you are meeting mostly do not have that motivator.

In fact, the people you most want to hang around will all think that motivation for partying is lame.

I know it's something you're trying to work through.

But I'd perhaps meditate on that a bit.

Chase

Benjamin's picture

I was intrigued to know that you did one sided monogamy relationships. I learned hector did them and I figured you probably did them too since you are a man of great influence and made yourself desireable to women. How many lays and relationship experience would a man need to have to realisticly be able to pull off a one sided relationship with a moderately attractive woman? Also were you financially stable when you had those kinds of relationships? Or can you still pull off the broke lover? Social dynamics discussed on this site is very forbidden to talk about in society,but how do you resist the urge to do this when everybody around you talks gibberish and to whom could you discuss this with who aren't initiated? Any man who aspires to improve themselves with women through seduction is completely alone and has no one to support him. It just sucks. Obviously you were able to pull it off,but it's still very easy to be discouraged. My friends are not people I could convert to believe in this type of stuff and it sucks because they are good guys.

Curious as well's picture

I wanted to ask this same question and wanted the email notification lol

Naye's picture

"How many lays and relationship experience?"

Dude I pulled this off with just 3 lays and 0 relationship experience. Asking that question just shows you imposing limitations on yourself ;)

"Were you financially stable?"

Was broke and living with my parents.

 

Numbers are not enough to tell you if you are ready or not. Personally I wasn't sure if I could pull it off or not but I went for it anyway.That relationship lasted just under 3 years. Push yourself outside of your comfort zone and you'll be surprised at what you can pull off.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Benjamin-

What Nayes said.

My first one-sided monogamous relationship was when I was a total newbie beginner, with a very beautiful girl I was in love with. At the time I was basically just repeating lines from a coach of mine and figured there was no way she would tolerate it, and no way it was going to work. Except it did.

I had a decent job then but negative net worth. With later one-sided relationships I was jobless and broke.

I will say you learn more about women from succeeding with things you think will never work than from just about anything else you could do.

When 'impossible' stuff works, you end up in a situation where your mind is just continually blown... until you come out of it with a completely different perspective on the thing than what you had going in.

That said, my first one I was still very young, and very irresponsible, and I did a lot of damage. She was okay in the end, but I really put her through a wringer, and felt quite bad for it. It was the biggest relief in the world for me to see her marry a very high quality guy after me... made me feel that okay, I didn't totally wreck her, she bounced back in a great way.

If you run this kind of relationship, you really have to be super careful about the frames you are setting, not just verbally, but also implicitly. Very easy to do a lot of damage if you're too cavalier about things.

Chase

SZ's picture

Really good article, the thing I believe, everything gets old, commitment and being single, both get boring after a while, but being committed is easier because you don't have to keep going out.

1. what do you think of the case if you go longer than the 2 year drop? a girl I was seeing still contacts me to this day and I've known her about 5 years and we fucked for 3. there was a drop during the second year, but that was because of me, I tried to distance myself from her while she still chased me and still does to this day. so I stopped talking to her after the 3rd year, but she still wanted to be with me even after I didn't talk to her for some time.

maybe the situation was different? we weren't really too public, never met her fam, and we only saw each other for a few days a week.

so why do you think that lasted so long? do you think if she's chasing commitment that it goes past the 2 year drop, instead of actually giving her the relationship and not stepping up the relationship with kids or marriage like a normal 2 year drop? does her wanting the basic commitment make it last longer?

2. what do you feel about guys who are repressed and have to learn game way later? what if they did what society said and settled down kind of young, but later on are really sad they didn't sleep with more women, not they are older and maybe still married or divorced, but they never had the success and now are very bitter because of it. do they just end up being single and learn how to get women? wouldn't it be that much harder because of age? what if he wants to make up for lost time?

3. you said that men who have slept around with a good amount of women never really settle down, so do these guys still cheat on their wives? do these guys really sleep around at 60+ years old?

4. to me in this day and age every girl is different, do you really think it's wise to really settle down? I'm not saying this like a young boy says he doesn't want to settle down, but I'm talking from the view of dealing with the drama that comes with it and if you decide to split? what if modern women have made you too bitter?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

SZ-

1. what do you think of the case if you go longer than the 2 year drop? a girl I was seeing still contacts me to this day and I've known her about 5 years and we fucked for 3. there was a drop during the second year, but that was because of me, I tried to distance myself from her while she still chased me and still does to this day. so I stopped talking to her after the 3rd year, but she still wanted to be with me even after I didn't talk to her for some time.

Yeah, so it's three years, and she's still checking in on you two years later.

That is not uncommon. It's not the rule that every relationship automatically becomes "marriage or babies, or else GTFO" at the 2-year mark. Just that with most women this is when you see the shift.

Some women stick it out longer. Some are more laid back, or tell themselves "He's almost there" and hang on a little more. Or you may have done things that allayed a girl's concerns for a while and caused her to postpone checking out.

Checking back in on you post-breakup is pretty normal. A lot of women will do this -- typically when they don't have another very promising man in their lives. And you will also have exes pop back onto your radar again when a relationship they had flames out, sometimes. "I can't believe Damon left me... I wonder what SZ is up to?"

This is all pretty normal stuff.

2. what do you feel about guys who are repressed and have to learn game way later? what if they did what society said and settled down kind of young, but later on are really sad they didn't sleep with more women, not they are older and maybe still married or divorced, but they never had the success and now are very bitter because of it. do they just end up being single and learn how to get women? wouldn't it be that much harder because of age? what if he wants to make up for lost time?

Well, I don't know. How late is he starting?

J.J. Jones was a natural who knocked a girl up and married her too young, cutting his player career far short (much shorter than he wanted). He came out of it emotionally beaten down and broken, in his late 30s, shorter and balding, and feeling like he'd forgotten everything he used to know with women. After about six months he started doing some reading, found this site, started going out, and posted a slew of lays. I think he had one year where he did 30 or 40 lay reports. Finally ended up nailing down a gal he really liked and settled back out of the game again, this time happily and when he was fully ready to.

I had coaching clients back when I was coaching who were newly divorced, early 40s to early 50s, wanting to live the playboy lifestyle they never had because they married young. And some of them do it.

The only differentiators between the men who do it and the men who don't are:

  1. Is the guy realistic about the learning process?
  2. Is the guy REALLY motivated to do this?

If he's not realistic about the learning process (e.g., he isn't all in, 100%, on just total self-improvement, on being the most attractive version of himself he can be) or he's not really motivated (he's going to make up excuses to dodge doing the work he needs to succeed) -- and those two things tend to go hand-in-hand -- then he isn't going to get there.

But, one might argue, he never really wanted to get there in the first place.

3. you said that men who have slept around with a good amount of women never really settle down, so do these guys still cheat on their wives? do these guys really sleep around at 60+ years old?

Oh yeah.

I knew a couple guys who at 57 and 59 respectively were both still total charismatic flirtatious playboys, each with a wife and a nice house and three kids, who were still taking new women occasionally.

Haven't talked to them in some years, but the last time I saw one of them he was in his middle 60s (probably 63 or 64) and I mentioned I'd likely be in Eastern Europe the next year to film a video product... and immediately he got that twinkle in his eye and excitedly told me to tell him when I was going because he wanted to join. It was very obvious as soon as he said it he was thinking "Euro babes!"

The drive definitely goes down.

And it is not like they are seeking it out all that actively.

But they have become these men women (including, maybe even especially, 20-something women) are just drawn to, and end up with these opportunistic now-and-then lays.

4. to me in this day and age every girl is different, do you really think it's wise to really settle down? I'm not saying this like a young boy says he doesn't want to settle down, but I'm talking from the view of dealing with the drama that comes with it and if you decide to split? what if modern women have made you too bitter?

Well... I suppose it's hard to say.

My attitude is like, look: the laws at this point are pretty unfair. But not totally (yet).

If you're intelligent about mate selection, and you're intelligent about asset protection, you can still be relatively safe even in a conventional marriage. I spelled out my recommendations for that in my post on not getting divorce raped:

10 Steps to Not Get Raped in Your Divorce

If you're like a normal guy, and you are not going to take these steps, then it is probably a 50/50 shot whether you are walking into a dangerous situation or not.

But if you are a normal guy who is not going to take these steps, you are probably also oblivious to any risk and not really worrying about any of this stuff anyway.

As for drama, well yeah. Any ongoing relationship with a woman includes drama. Once you move in you are in for occasional bouts of mega drama. That is unavoidable, even if you pick very well. No matter what you give her or don't give her you will be in for at least some of that.

I guess the issue is that if you don't get into an LTR, and you want that, eventually you are going to get depressed. A friend of mine who bounced from LTR to LTR and continued his playerdom into his late 30s and for a long time intended to be a playboy bachelor forever has recently had to deal with depression, as he is tired of casual sex and has realized he is only content when he is in an LTR (at which point he gets the itch for new women, then goes and shags a bunch of girls and feels guilty about it, eventually breaking up with his girl to not feel guilty and be totally single). Now he is missing an ex he broke up with, who is happily moved on, and regretting her as the best girlfriend he had, whom he knew at the time was the best, but he let her go. He says he has never felt like this or gone through this before, and it took two years for it to kick in for him.

There is a bit of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to getting into a settled LTR with a woman at some point sooner or later.

My recommendation has always been "follow your biology", and that you ought to do what you are biologically programmed to do, because if you don't, then at some point you are going to have to reckon with that.

I will say it does seem like some guys are really not programmed for any kind of ongoing long-term commitment or anything to that extent.

If that's you, and you don't need an ongoing relationship to feel content or not get depressed or antsy, then maybe perpetual playerdom could work?

It will be slightly different for each guy. But the vast majority of men do seem to tire of being players and opt for relationships at some point or other. Including I think just about every player I have known.

Chase

Will KZ's picture

Great article. Originally I misread the title and thought it said "whats the endgame for Playboy", which seems to have the endgame plan of becoming super progressive and lecturing men on assorted BS, much like GQ...perhaps all men's magazines will soon become Jezebel light.

But your actual article was far more interesting. I remember the Tiger Woods thing putting me off mainstream media when I saw the only mainstream people saying anything close to the truth were a few comedians while everyone else, was shocked, shocked to find that a famous, athletic man nicknamed Tiger, worth billions (or close), might dare seek out extramarital flings. 

I wonder what my endgame will be. In my early 30s now, focused more on money than women. Wonder how I'll feel in my 40s whatever path I take.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Will-

and thought it said "whats the endgame for Playboy"

Indeed.

"Put a bunch of trannies on the cover and cater to an audience no one is really certain actually exists" would be my guess.

In my early 30s now, focused more on money than women. Wonder how I'll feel in my 40s whatever path I take.

Typically when you reach that point, where women start becoming an afterthought, but of course you are still horny and still sometimes want some female companionship, eventually you start to cast around looking for a girl who's worth keeping around longer.

Your 30s and early 40s are the best overall, most attractive periods of your life as a man... which nicely coincides with the declining amount of energy most guys are willing to put on women at these ages.

You're not as active, but the girls all want you, and what you're looking for at this age tends to be more aligned with what many of them are too.

And at that point you just get to sit back and be the chooser: "Hmm, nope, not that one. This one? ... nah. Could be this one -- but, no. Ah! This one perhaps. Hmm. Gotta think about it. Let me try this other one..."

Bit of a role reversal from your earlier years.

Chase

Lao Che's picture

being single and childless as you head into your mid-forties is a bad place to be. the ride doesn't last forever and you'd better figure out where to get off before you get thrown off. family is EVERYTHING, whether you think so right now or not

 

 

i've had to start telling people i'm divorced, just so they don't think i'm gay or a weirdo. it's just easier. 

how old is Chase?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hey Lao Che, good to see you!

Yes, you have to plan ahead. Everything in our society is "now now now! The future never comes!"

And then it's like getting hit with a freight train with the future shows up, for many people.

The good news is there's plenty of information out there.

So long as a guy's aware of his own end of history illusions he will generally be okay.

(but then again... a lot of guys are not...)

I'm in my late 30s now.

But I was married in my early 20s, divorced a few years later. So that's never been an issue for me. I've also basically never been single since I got into the game... always at least a girlfriend or two, and if need be I can talk about that with girls. They can typically sort of smell it on you also (and socially, for work functions, you just bring your girlfriend along, and everyone thinks she's great, and no one is worried about whether you're gay or a weirdo).

If you're worried about socially, just try to keep a few dateable FWBs in your rotation if you don't do girlfriends, and take one of them along when you have a happy hour or work party.

And if it's girls looking at you weird, just tell them you just broke up.

Technically if you are sleeping around a lot, it's like a lot of little breakups, all the time ;)

"We just broke up." --> "Oh I'm sorry, how long were you together?" --> "About 12 hours. She was great, but there wasn't any future there." --> "Oh I see."

There's the more serious route you can go, too.

Most guys have had a girl they were serious with, with whom it did not work out.

You can very easily use that girl as your story:

"I had a girl about 10 years back I was in a very serious relationship with. Then blah blah blah it didn't work out. I wasn't ready [or whatever the reason is. It should be you breaking up with her though]. And since then I've just been very busy and I'm only really getting back into more serious dating right now."

Typical tragic Byronic hero stuff.

That's going to be enough for most any girl.

Chase

Mr.Rob's picture

Every once in a blue moon they come around. Bravo! 

Really good points on the "current state of affairs of mistresses and one sided monogomy". I read JFK's biography and that guy had pussy delivered to him on a daily basis like rock star status. The meds he was on for his pretty severe addisons disease compounded his sex drive through the roof (not a bad side effect lol) and was quoted "if I go 3 days without a woman I get major anxiety and can't sleep". His staff and secret service were constantly supplying him women and keeping steady tabs on all his mistresses to prevent a scandal from what I gather.

Interesting stuff, but my gosh what a pain in the dick to be a celebrity or powerful man married in today's social media/cellphone age where its even harder to keep things private and under wraps!! I'm sure it makes some powerful men want say "to hell with it" and go start a cult! 

If you end up weighing in on the comment section here I'd be curious to get your toughts on "mistress game" (if your willing to give away those secrets that is [which Im sure you have ascertained from 2nd hand sources only ;) ... Namely how do you run a mistress relationship? Is it basically a run the same way as a casual FWB or do you have a mini monogamous relationship with her. Thing is I know successful ppl w/ mistresses having long term (1 year +) relationships which kinda defies the casual relationship 3-4 month typical thing.

So eh changing tack here... what would you "guess" ;), is the best way to run mistress game? Is it run the same way as a FWB/Casual relationship or "would you imagine" there are certain intricacies to keeping her on board and cool with being a side chick. I guess there's probably an inherent value in being sexually involved with a powerful man even if he'll never commit to more than just fucking her (she gets his access to his seed).

I know many famous men had mistresses that lasted years long in duration which defies the typical 3-5 month long casual relationship expiration, so is this a different beast? 

Anyway awesome article boss man.

Cheers,

-Rob

Mr.Rob's picture

Eh I sent the original comment off without fixing the Edit I made there. Sorry for the confusing paragraphs at the end there. 

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Rob-

Yeah, JFK was a total horndog.

I wonder how much the medication was really responsible, and how much he just blamed it for loving women.

Because certainly, when you want to shag a whole bunch, you are typically going to need some kind of "not my fault" explanation for it, especially when trying to explain it to a wife (I didn't read the bio and don't know all the details, but I'm sure Jackie knew) and people responsible for assisting your liaisons.

Interesting stuff, but my gosh what a pain in the dick to be a celebrity or powerful man married in today's social media/cellphone age where its even harder to keep things private and under wraps!! I'm sure it makes some powerful men want say "to hell with it" and go start a cult! 

I do wonder though.

Becuase we have Donald Trump as president now, and we know about a handful of affairs he's had.

And he is basically an obvious and admitted total horndog. Are those really the only affairs he's had?

Has he totally kept it in his pants since he got into the White House? Probably not.

But we really have no idea about the vast majority of what he gets up to.

That said, I would imagine without the Secret Service ferrying women to you, U.S. President probably actually is a fairly isolating job. Only women around you are going to be whoever's working for you in the White House.

Thus, Bill Clinton's choice of mistress (chubby Monica). Probably the best of the slim pickings there.

Namely how do you run a mistress relationship? Is it basically a run the same way as a casual FWB or do you have a mini monogamous relationship with her. Thing is I know successful ppl w/ mistresses having long term (1 year +) relationships which kinda defies the casual relationship 3-4 month typical thing.

Yeah, typically they are monogamous-ish.

Obviously you are still with your main chick / wife.

Mistresses themselves come in all shapes and colors. Though few of them are actually totally monogamous to the man. Usually they come in one of three flavors:

  1. Married women conducting a mutual affair with you
  2. Women who are with you because they're in love and think this might lead to marriage
  3. Young women who are with you for money / assets because you're rich and they see a chance for gain

Typically the #1 and #3 women are going to be sleeping with someone else. #1s with their husbands, and maybe other affair partners. #3s with their boyfriends they are actually in love with and pursuing a potentially serious relationship with. You see a lot of #3s in Asia, where the married man buys his mistress an apartment, and comes there to visit her and have sex with her. Then on the days he is not visiting, the girl has her boyfriend over.

#1s and #2s can be young (20-something) or older (30s, 40s, etc.). #3s are almost always 20-somethings, because they're still young enough they're okay to trade time for money. Once they start nearing 30 this becomes less and less of a good deal for them, and they start to look hard for a guy to build a real life with.

The #2s are typically with a married man who is either genuinely in-love with them or who is leading them on. Typically he is promising them that before they know it, he is planning to leave his wife. He complains about her to them and makes her feel like his relationship is horrible and he wants to get away. So she keeps telling her self soon, soon he will leave her, and then he will be mine. Once her friends and family find out about it they start to work against him, and tell her he is leading you on, he is not going to leave his wife. But she will refuse to believe it for a while, until one day she wises up and realizes, "This guy always says he will leave her, but never does. I think he really never is going to leave her." And then she starts giving him ultimatums and acting like any typical 2-year drop relationship girl.

At which point, either the guy dumps his wife and makes it official with the mistress (less common), or he tells the mistress the truth is he cannot leave his wife (more common).

(then sometimes the spurned mistress goes all scorned woman on the guy and alerts his wife and tries to wreck his life... which actually sometimes works. I have seen instances where the mistress alerted the wife, the wife divorced the husband, and the husband reconciled with the mistress and married her. So it is actually an effective strategy, some of the time)

And yeah, you get a huge boost in attractiveness being a married man and/or a man who has successfully reproduced.

Women are scandalous. They want that guy another woman already has. And they want a guy who's proven his genes by passing them on. There's nothing more attractive to a woman than an attractive guy, except an equally attractive guy who's married and/or has kids.

Chase

SZ's picture

Another thing Chase,

I wanted your opinion on this.

1. When should a guy get married? or should he even get married? but if he should get married, what do you think Is the best situation?

should a guy marry young with no skillet with women because of society norms? I ask young because the older you get the harder it is to get married to younger women who have their stuff together with low baggage. the man would also have to get good skills with women to get younger women as well.

or should he wait until he gets to a certain skill level with women before getting married? and how many partners should he be at?

2. what does a guy do while married? does he just not care about other women anymore? does he just let his skillset fade? what is the endgame for a married man? it sounds so boring to not not have attractive girls all throughout your life.

3. this kind of adds in to the 2nd question. what are real old guys supposed to do whether married or single? I'm talking 60+ like should they just quit pick up all together if they're single? or should they just really not care about seduction or being in shape (let themselves go), be a sugar daddy, pick up 40 year old women? lol. and what should they do if they're married and that old? like what's your opinion on what real older men should do whether they're single or not when it comes to all types of self improvement?

SZ's picture

Chase, could you elaborate more on how playboys never fully settle down?

you said they really can't fully be faithful.

and I'm guessing you mean this well into age.

so how do these guys do this without getting caught and divorced or whatever?

how does that while scenario play out with finding the girls, dating, sleeping, etc. while being really old and maybe married?

Thanks

Author
Chase Amante's picture

SZ-

1. When should a guy get married? or should he even get married? but  if he should get married, what do you think Is the best situation?

Oh, I don't know.

I've seen guys do great marrying young and I've seen them do great marrying older. I've also seen disasters from marrying young, and disasters from marrying older.

I have seen hardline guys in the men's space recommending both: "You need to wait until you are 40+, then marry a woman who is in her late teens or early 20s." Versus "You need to marry when you are young: get a girl who has not been ruined, marry her, and get her birthing and rearing your children, so you are not still running around trying to do all that when you are old."

I don't really have an opinion, personally.

I think different guys have different life paths they're on, with different upbringings, and different genetic predispositions, and they are going to follow those, regardless what people tell them.

2. what does a guy do while married? does he just not care about  other women anymore? does he just let his skillset fade? what is the  endgame for a married man? it sounds so boring to not not have  attractive girls all throughout your life.

Depends on the guy.

But yeah, most guys once married aren't too concerned with having a ton of women around all the time.

They're more focused on work, business connections, their kids, etc.

Women become a minor distraction / occasional dalliance, at best (or else they go full monogamous and don't even worry about women at all).

Some guys get bored with that. Most don't though.

Probably the best analogue is like how children look at stuff you read or watch as an adult: "Why are you reading that? It's boring!"

Yet to you it is very interesting.

3. this kind of adds in to the 2nd question. what are real old guys  supposed to do whether married or single? I'm talking 60+ like should  they just quit pick up all together if they're single? or should they  just really not care about seduction or being in shape (let themselves  go), be a sugar daddy, pick up 40 year old women? lol. and what should  they do if they're married and that old? like what's your opinion on  what real older men should do whether they're single or not when it  comes to all types of self improvement?

Why does this matter?

I do not know even a single 60-year-old who is asking these questions.

I 100% guarantee you by the time you are 60 years old you are not going to be asking them either.

Besides, that is 30 years from now for you. I have no idea what the dating landscape will look like for you then.

Although I have to imagine it won't be that different: if you're an exceptional older man, you can still take young women.

If not... well, you'll have to settle for whatever you can get...

so how do these guys do this without getting caught and divorced or whatever?

Some do.

Most not unless they want to (i.e., they are tired of being married and want an out).

Most women once they are in a stable long-term relationship with kids with a guy they love will turn a bit of a blind eye to a guy's occasional indiscretions, so long as they are not too blatant. If the guy is doing everything they need him to (bringing the bacon, being a good father, being a loving husband who treats them well, etc.) unless they are women with extreme personalities/personality disorders, you'd be surprised what many wives will let slide.

As far as how married guys meet women... typically opportunistically. They aren't going out hunting like bachelors anymore. Don't have the time.

Instead, they are meeting women like this.

Chase

Anonym's picture

Hi Chase,

Thanks for an interesting article. I have a few notes here:

  1. Ad powerful men always having mistresses and being polygamous. Of course many powerful men live this way. But there are examples of powerful men living monogamous or non-sexual life because of different reasons: religion (f.e. the popes – at least some of them), focus on work (Nikola Tesla), repressed sexuality (Cecil Rhodes, Adolf Hitler), introversion/awkwardness/shyness/possible autism (Bill Gates, Lionel Messi). For example, Victorian public schools trained young English men to repress their sexuality and many of otherwise hypermasculine builders of the British Empire were not sexually active. Probably some other deeply religious powerful men were disciplined enough not to live in polygamy. Etc.
  1. I am surprised that in your comparison difference of the West and the other parts of the world you do not mention Christianity (and Judaism) as a factor of cultural dominance of monogamy. If you are practicing Christian, you are allowed to have sex only in marriage and you can marry only one woman. If you follow the rules, you have to be monogamous. Traditional Christian (or secular) Western family is based on marriage between one man and one woman who have children together. Mutual monogamy seems like natural and logical implication (or precondition) of this model. Cultural influence of the West to a big extent overlap with spread of Christianity, though in some regions there is syncretism with local cultures and therefore more visible polygamy. Moreover, if ratio of men and women in polupation is balanced, then monogamy is better since more men can have woman and their own family. It is better also for stability of society, since there are less frustrated men.
  1. I wonder how you could have thought the way you thought if you were raised in conservative Catholic family. I have atheist background (Central-Eastern Europe) and I have always considered mutual monogamy as natural and the right model of family, while infidelity was as a bad thing (I am not Christian, so sex outside marriage is normal, as well as serial monogamy or casual sex or FWB). I have never had real desire to have multiple girlfriends at the same time or even multiple families, I found it absurd, unthinkable, not right and inconvenient. Idea of onesided monogamy is unfair to me. Since I am a rules based guy, not a wild bad boy, when I found for the first time my male friends were unfaithful to their girlfriends, I felt like „how could he possibly do that?“ and not „wow, he is a cool guy for getting laid with another woman“. Now I am more in peace with reality but still it would be uncomfortable for me to do it since it goes against my core values.
  1. One point to one previous article. You correctly wrote that nice guys are guardians of social norms and that social norms cannot exist without people defending them. That actually implies that bad boys need and are kind of dependent on existence of nice guys. While they sometimes mock them and are arrogant to them as to people not knowing how to have fun and not being manly enough, they are exciting to women in contrast to them and their rules breaking is exciting only when other people follow the rules. When all nice guys start to behave like bad boys, this contrast disappears and social norms change or cease to be valid, so breaking them has no more effect.
  1. In the past I wrote you about my dilemma in relation to this Indonesian girl in long-term relationship (here: https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-screen-wife-and-mother). For your information, while she is still as lovable as she used to be, recently she got married with the same guy she was dating when I met her. So even your advice could not have worked in this case. Sometimes it is hopeless since beginning.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Anonym

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anonym-

Good notes here on powerful-yet-celibate men, and deeply religious or repressed men who led (likely) monogamous lives. (I say "likely" since the vast majority of affairs never make it into the history books)

I didn't mention Christianity as a basis for monogamy because you have monogamy in other societies (such as East Asia) without Christianity. If you have 4 billion people practicing monogamy, and half of them are Christian, and the other half Buddhist or atheist, it's hard to find a commonality in religion. I know a lot of people like to tie monogamy to "Christian cultural values" but I am skeptical of that explanation. It seems to more be an emergent property of specific civilization setups.

Even in Medieval Christendom, you had polygamous popes, and Chaucer's wild, debauched England.

And of course, we always have the origins of Valentine's Day, our modern day holiday of monogamous love:

In the Middle Ages a tradition (condemned by the Church) appeared in Europe of men drawing women's names from jars on Valentine's Day to select a random sex partner. A little later, the holiday morphed from being one of casual sex to one of romance, and letter-writing and poetry on Valentine's became popular... by the end of the 18th century, there were books with Valentine's Day lovers' poems for men who lacked the creativity to come up with their own.

(from my article on Valentine's Day)

The Europe of the Middle Ages of course being 100% Christian, more or less.

So, while the "monogamy is because of Christianity" belief certainly seems prevalent among Western intellectuals, it doesn't hold a lot of water IMO.

I wonder how you could have thought the way you thought if you were  raised in conservative Catholic family. I have atheist background  (Central-Eastern Europe) and I have always considered mutual monogamy as  natural and the right model of family, while infidelity was as a bad  thing (I am not Christian, so sex outside marriage is normal, as well as  serial monogamy or casual sex or FWB). I have never had real desire to  have multiple girlfriends at the same time or even multiple families, I  found it absurd, unthinkable, not right and inconvenient. Idea of  onesided monogamy is unfair to me. Since I am a rules based guy, not a  wild bad boy, when I found for the first time my male friends were  unfaithful to their girlfriends, I felt like „how could he possibly do  that?“ and not „wow, he is a cool guy for getting laid with another  woman“. Now I am more in peace with reality but still it would be  uncomfortable for me to do it since it goes against my core values.

I've always had mixed feelings on it personally.

I genuinely do not feel like it is appropriate for me to be limited to one woman. I actually think it is unfair to women in general if only one woman at a time can have me.

Little bit of ego there I guess. But also, objectively I think being with me is a very good thing for women, and women usually seem to agree. So, to a certain extent, the more the merrier.

However, I also do not want to hurt a woman, especially one I care about.

So there is always a bit of moral conflict there. In particular I have tended to steer my relationships toward a place where the woman reaches the "I don't want to know" point, where morally you are more or less in the clear... so long as you keep the relationship strong and healthy for her.

One point to one previous article. You correctly wrote that nice guys are guardians of social norms and that social norms cannot exist without people defending them. That actually implies that bad boys need and are kind of dependent on existence of nice guys. While they sometimes mock them and are arrogant to them as to people not knowing how to have fun and not being manly enough, they are exciting to women in contrast to them and their rules breaking is exciting only when other people follow the rules. When all nice guys start to behave like bad boys, this contrast disappears and social norms change or cease to be valid, so breaking them has no more effect.

Absolutely true!

In I think it is Matt Ridley's book The Red Queen, the author talks about the cads vs. dads strategy specifically.

The essence is a population can only support a certain percentage of cads... somewhere around 10% cads, 90% dads is stable. As soon as the percentage of cads gets too high (say, 30%), being a dad starts to become significantly more attractive again.

I think we can fairly safely equate dads with nice guys and cads with bad boys in our thinking about this (of course, not all dads are nice guy pushovers... there are plenty of alpha providers... just using this as a rough approximation for what percentages of each a given population can support).

Re: the Chinese-Indonesian gal, yeah... not really a big surprise, honestly. Sorry though. Indonesians and especially Chinese-Indonesians tend to date pretty seriously and not try a whole bunch of partners before settling down. Sometimes/often only one.

Of course there are plenty more like that where she came from, as well as in Malaysia and mainland China (also somewhat more Westernized Chinese, who will date around more, in Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. Then if you get to the Western-born Chinese girls, they're basically the same as European girls, values- and behavior-wise).

Can always go spend a year abroad at some point and come back home with a wife, if you've decided she is your type.

Chase

Lawliet's picture

Chase, you've been with me for half a decade or more. Despite not meeting, we've known each other for awhile. If you do fade away and call in quits with being the bachelor, don't be a stranger and hit me up by my email and let's stay in touch. It's like having a close friend who travelled to another country and never comes back. That feeling sucks.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Cheers Lawliet.

Well, I am still here. Just a little busier ;)

That is life though, isn't it?

One long series of people you get to know, traveling off on their various paths, some to cross paths with again later, some where you never really know what happened to them.

I've always kind of been more intrigued by the mysteries, myself.

Chase

TL01's picture

Thank you for this, Chase. Thank you.

Anonymous 's picture

Hey Chase, I just read a comment about you having a friend with a 400+ lay count. What did he work on and how did he improve himself to that point to get there?

I read one of them was charm. How do you get more of that?

Thanks

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anon-

Hey Chase, I just read a comment about you having a friend with a  400+ lay count. What did he work on and how did he improve himself to  that point to get there?

Anything and everything. He was a total obsessive about appearance, pickup, conversation, relationships, social dynamics. Even the tiniest nuance he would drill into at minute detail.

And he was an absolute approach machine, basically always looking to get laid, who would bed some of the most stunningly beautiful women you had ever seen, and some of the most appallingly ugly ones.

Fun guy. Very driven. Always great to talk to.

I read one of them was charm. How do you get more of that?

Yeah... it's a very abstract concept.

I have a course coming out on it very soon. Almost ready for launch. The best way I can explain it is "buy the course", because it is such a pain to explain/teach charm/charisma I never want to have to do it again :D

We also have a few articles on the site you may want to peruse:

Chase

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