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A reader writes in on the article "Staying Out of Auto-Rejection," about asking himself the question of "Are we just friends?" and giving up on a girl he was pursuing - only to have her pull him back in with an expression of her feelings:
“I wrote off a girl (well have tried to anyway with great difficulty) I felt strongly for about a year ago due to the fact that although she expressed strong interested in me, she moved onto another guy due to me moving too slow, being aloof etc.
Since then, as part of bringing closure to the whole episode, I read all these theories about escalation-windows and auto-rejection, and concluded that this was most likely what happened in my case, and thus put the whole thing to rest, reaching acceptance that anything we had was over (well at least trying my best with these steps), and resolving not to make these 'mistakes' again with the next someone special who comes along.
Comments
do you put your dates in the friends zone?
Hey Chase,
I just want to say you are such an inspirational guy both are a writer/ coach and also as a businessman because you treat your readers and customers with so much respect.
I know you advocate not paying for your dates before you have slept with them.
1) When you guys go out as dutch, are you putting her in the friends zone? (aren't you confusing her if you like her or not? )
Wont she think, this guy approached me on the street by telling me how stunning I was and on our first date he is not even paying for my drink/ coffee.?
2) What are you really conveying or what is the frame of the interaction when you do not pay for her drink/ coffee etc?
3) Have you ever had girls become upset with you and did not come on a second date because they thought you should have paid?
Dates and Friend Zones
Funman–
On dates, you ideally want the communication to be that the two of you ARE just friends… who have a sexual connection. You want her to be mildly confused… if everything is crystal clear, the mystery drains out of things and it’s business as usual. At that point, you’re competing on the same things that every other guy is – looks, money, career. And usually that means she’ll need to draw things out further to see how well you stack up against the competition.
I’ve had girls get upset and refuse second dates for not paying, yes.
I’ve never had a girl who really liked me get upset and refuse a second date, though. Only girls who were dating just to date (e.g., dating is their hobby), or were on the fence and didn’t have enough reason to see me again if I wasn’t going to pay. Those are the kinds of girls you’re probably not going to get together with anyway, though – so you’re saving yourself both time and money by not having to see them again.
One caveat: if you’re older – say, late 30s or older – you can get a “father figure” attraction boost by paying for younger women, but it’s usually important you take them to bed immediately after. Paying but then not taking the girl to bed right away communicates very clearly that you are competing for the boyfriend role.
Chase
Excellent Post
Ah yes, another great article. This advice is dead on accurate. It really boils down to what was mentioned about underlining the woman's actions. Not words. Chase is right, women will tell you anything they think you want to hear. But the reality is, bottom-line her ACTIONS. She she going on dates with you? Sleeping with you? Making herself available? Listen to Chase: DO NOT listen to what women say - they speak "womanese" - bottom line their actions and you can figure out with 99% accuracy how they feel about you.
(I originally tried to post
(I originally tried to post this in the ‘Purpose’ article but was unable to - word verification wouldn’t allow me - that’s why it’s out of place!)
Thank you Chase,
A very enlightening and, as always, very well written piece. Would it be correct to say this sense of purpose can be seen in people from say George Clooney to Martin Luther King Jr.? There’s an aura of calm in how they present themselves, but also a visible ‘edge’.
I still have one question though, you may have covered this in the post and I may not have understood, but why do you believe there is a need for a purpose, rather than happiness? A sense of purpose is needed to care about others as much as or more than yourself, but if you invest enough time in your purpose/s, and once you have achieved them, don’t they become emotional needs again, and therefore contribute to your happiness, above and after your sense of purpose?
Purpose, Edge, and Happiness
Anon-
Yes, absolutely - anyone with an edge you will find has some purpose he subscribes to. I touched on this one in the post on being edgy, actually - having a mission is a prerequisite for having edge.
As far as happiness, happiness is an emotion you will naturally achieve in the course of going about chasing down your dreams and satisfying your purpose(s). If you forget happiness and instead pursue a purpose, happiness will find you on its own. Conversely, the most miserable people you will ever meet are the ones chasing happiness, because they're chasing a fleeting, transitory emotion that is fickle and never sticks around for long. Happiness is a byproduct of doing what you need to be doing, not an end to be sought in and of itself. It's the reward, not the object. Chasing happiness is exactly like making your goal with women, "Get girls to like me," or your goal with business, "Be good at business." Because there is no end point, you can never achieve it, and you will never get the sense of having "made it."
No one really wants to be truly happy, either. The happiest people in the world are Buddhist monks - numerous brain scans have confirmed that they have more activation in the centers of their brains responsible for happiness than any other human beings on Earth. Any man whose true object is "be happy" would immediately leave everything behind and go become a Buddhist monk.
But nobody does this.
Which shows that people's REAL objectives are not "be happy," but rather something else. Only, they don't know what they are, because they keep thinking their real objectives are "be happy," when they clearly aren't.
The road to happiness lead through the thick and sometimes dark forest of purpose. Many people try to avoid that forest and find a simpler, more carefree way, only to end up frustrated and bitter when they find themselves unable to achieve the lasting happiness they thought they could if they made "being happy" their primary pursuit.
Real happiness comes through knowing what you're supposed to do, and doing it. Do that, and you won't have to worry about finding happiness; it begins to find you.
Chase
Hi Chase, I met a girl that I
Hi Chase,
I met a girl that I see on a regular basis (same class) that I got her number about two weeks ago. First time I asked her in person, she tried to ignore the issue. When I texted her, she didn't respond. I rarely am able to building attraction with her as she has class after. I texted her again after 1 week wanting to meet within 2 days. 1 hour before meeting, she texted saying she was busy with homework, I said "np, next time then". At this time, is all hope lost? I personally have higher value than her and I tried to tone it down. At this point, how would you approach her and should I just move on? Thanks Chase! Really appreciate your great feedback!
Non-Responsive Girl
Anon-
It sounds like she just isn't interested. If you're significantly higher value than she is, it could just be that you're too out of her league, and she doesn't even consider you as an option (i.e., it's too far outside her reality).
If you're seeing her in person, you need to be mainly interacting with her in person, building attraction with her there, and asking her out there. No matter how much higher value you are, asking her out over the phone when you see her repeatedly in person looks bad - it looks like you're scared or nervous to do it in person.
You probably want to simply drop this girl and move on, unless you can find a way to get some preselection going in a way that she can see and try to rebuild attraction. Right now it's swung too far the other way - and it doesn't sound like you have any opportunities to build it back up again. I'd spend my energies on other girls who haven't made a hard "no" decision about me just yet - it's more a productive use of your time.
Chase
Hey Chase, How do I present
Hey Chase,
How do I present myself as a mature man when I am still in my teens? I want to go after older women. Legal age limit is no problem in my country so it is alright to give me advice. I guess I want to know what Mature men do differently and how they act around women from immature men?
Also how do I change my sense of humor to one of a mature man? I want to be humorous to older fine ladies also and not come across as the age that I am. I get a lot of my humor and wit from comedians. Do you know of any comedians with mature humor and wit? Also, sorry if I write badly as English is not my second language. :)
Anon
Being Mature
Anon-
Maturity comes from generally coming across as:
If you begin changing your behavior to match those, you'll start getting told more and more that you seem "very mature." See the articles on the Law of Least Effort and sprezzatura to get a good idea of what this looks like.
On humor, I learned a fair bit by watching David Letterman when I was younger, although the humor you really want to be using with women is more what you'll see a charming, seductive man use - see Sean Connery or James Garner flirting with women in movies from their day, or Val Kilmer or (somewhat less mature, but still good) Jude Law more recently. Any of the newer James Bonds (Pierce Brosnan, Daniel Craig) are good too.
Chase
Actions speak louder than words
Nice article to start off the holidays Chase!
I'm going to remember your comments about charity next time some-one doesn't do something I agree with fully. I actually like the 'There is someone who doesn't ..." way of approaching it. It's too easy to sit there while stuck at home and over analyse topics which in the end mean squat. Although I do enjoy analysing and researching clever stories that I do like - latest in mind is Bioshock Infinite.
Chase when you are in a downer mood these days, are you able to completely snap out of it at will? I have less and less of these days now that I'm not falling into victim mentality or going against some of my bodies wishes such as sleeping. I had one the other day and my body fell out of whack, my posture fell out and I felt awkward just standing. I wasn't approaching or talking to any women as I was working. I know you read a lot of scientific articles and was wondering if you have come across and tips to adjust that? If not, I guess I'm just going to keep working to avoid those situations. :)
Downer Mood / Awkward Movement
Knight-
I can usually snap out of a funk almost at will, yes. When I feel a little off, I usually give myself permission to just relax, hang out, and watch a movie or surf the Internet until it passes just because it's a relatively uncommon event and I have my process for overcoming those moods internalized, so it runs automatically without me having to worry about it. It's normally an expectation reset - e.g., you were expecting one thing would happen, but something else did, and now you need your expectations to reset and your mind to adapt to reality being a little different than you thought it was.
Much of the time I don't need the extra time to "snap out of it," though, unless it's a big expectation fail; usually all I need to do to get immediately snapped out of it is to think about something I really want to do, and then dive into working on it. That's a combination of automating your anti-depression process with having lots of things you want to do that contribute to your overall goals/purpose and that you can begin working on at any time.
On suddenly feeling awkward while standing: this happens if you become self-conscious about something and your logical brain takes over control. Malcolm Gladwell discusses the difference between "panicking" and "choking" in his book Outliers; panicking is where you lose all conscious control and your subconscious systems go crazy trying to get you out of whatever situation you're in, while choking is where your conscious mind takes full control over certain body systems and is trying to manually steer everything without your subconscious autopilot. The only problem is, most things you know how to do, you were only consciously learning them as a very beginner, and once you had the basics down the rest of the learning occurred subconsciously. So, your ability to stand well and expertly is contained in your subconscious, and when your conscious takes over you're only able to stand as well as your conscious mind has learned to stand - which is to say, like an awkward beginner at standing.
Two ways around that:
Everyone chokes on things from time to time (e.g., you suddenly notice a really beautiful woman, and all of a sudden you're walking funny because your conscious mind wanted to walk so perfectly it took control of your walking, without realizing it's actually very bad at walking). The best thing to do is seek greater comfort levels - but if you can't get more comfortable, then learn how to control things smoothly and naturally, even when your subconscious is turned off. That requires, however, a degree of relearning how to stand or walk (or anything else) with another part of your brain - and it takes time.
Chase
Want her back
Hi chase
I was dating a girl and all was ok, i told her that o love her in the 4th date qe already had sex but she started to feel scared, we had a little discution but she want some space and time because she is sick, but dont talk to me anymore .. What can i do ?
Girl Acting Different/Weird
Daniel-
See my reply to you here.
Chase
rapport
Hey Chase,
just wanted to ask, is it possible to build a rapport and a connection with ANY girl?
i'm going through some lows right now and it seems like every girl I talk to, there's nothing there. No point in trying to force it and should write them off. But how can a guy like me be the kind of guy almost every girl likes?
And if you could, could you make a post on some of your connection making techniques?
girls aren't buying it. i'm getting the-"are you just saying you like that because I like it?"
Rapport with Anyone
Wes-
Hypothetically, you COULD build a rapport and a connection with anyone. However, various people have walls of various heights and at various places... in the real world, the closest you'll be able to get is able to build rapport and connections with <em>most</em> people. There will always be a few people who either don't like you at the sight of you, or get off on resisting connecting with people, or view themselves as some kind of reclusive victim of the world and don't want to be seen talking with others.
Your ability to connect and bond is tied intimately to your life experiences. That is to say, the more comfortable you are with different kinds of people and the more different kind of experiences you've had, the more likely you are to have common ground to connect with people on.
e.g., a guy who's traveled the world and dated women of every ethnicity and a number of nationalities and held jobs in the service industry, academia, the 9-to-5 world, and worked for some world government agency is going to have a much easier time connecting with more people than a guy who was raised by wolves and lived in a cave until last year. The more experiences you have, the easier it is to connect with more people - connecting is really about shared experiences.
On connection-making techniques, check out these:
If you're missing something, it's in one of those pieces.
If you're doing the, "Oh yeah, I love that too!" it sounds like you're trying too hard to force the connection - that's a no-no. Instead, try to curb your enthusiasm and wait for a more powerful reveal later.
That is, she says she loves windsurfing, which is your secret passion, but you just go, "Cool, how long've you been doing it?" then probe her to talk about it. Later you can say, "You know, you don't sound like someone who's only been windsurfing two years. You sound like a grizzled old veteran of the sea, almost. You could probably teach some of my pals a thing or two." She'll then ask if you windsurf, and you'll say, "Oh, yeah - of course! I've been windsurfing since I was 10."
And then she's amazed to find someone else who does it - and even more amazed (and impressed) that you didn't freak out and blurt that you did too. You were more interested in just talking calmly and casually than you were in trying to force a connection.
Chase
Go for it or drop it
Hey Chase,
So about a month or so ago I asked a question on an article how to handle a situation with going for a girl who is good friends with a girl you previously asked out. Your advice was to date her in secret or talk to your previous flame first.
Anyway, I decided not to pursue the girl, as I really wasn't too interested. Now, I've changed my mind on the topic.
Over this last weekend, some friends in my class(including her) and I took a trip together. Over this trip, we bonded a bit and I decided she was someone I'd like pursue after all. On the trip home, the guys and I got a little immature, and started to discuss which of the girls we thought were more attractive. By the end, two of the girls(the girl who I was previously interested in and her friend who I'm interested in now) found out what we were discussing(although they never figured out who we thought was more attractive), but no big deal was made out it and went all home not thinking much about it.
A few days later, at school, we were all signing each others year books, and I made a joke referencing us talking about about them on the trip home. She signed my book about 10 minutes later saying this-
"You're really shallow with lady choices, but I guess you are alright - Road trip buddy (Sarah)"
Now, usually about a year ago, I'd take this as a clear sign she wasn't interested, but after reading your articles for sometime now, I'd think it also means is interested in me. She has a very sarcastic personality by the way.
Usually I'd ask her out now, but twice(once at the beginning of the week and once at the end) I sent a text to build rapport, during both times we exchanged a few messages and then she'd stop replying(mainly because both times were late at night, and I fell asleep after sending a message both times, and replied to her again the next morning).
So my question is, does it sound like she's interested in me? I'd think her note on my yearbook shows she's interested, but I've known to be wrong.
Thanks,
Chris
Sarcastic Girls
Chris-
It can be very hard to tell with sarcastic women. Much of the time, they ARE interested if they're using their sarcasm with you in a flirtatious way - but not always. Usually if she's sarcastic her luck with men isn't the best, so that works to your advantage - she isn't exactly fending off the suitors, most likely.
Anyway, you don't want to spend much time text bantering, ideally - too much of that, and you become the Really Incredibly Witting and Interesting Guy that women eventually grow bored with. Texting her something short, cool, and to the point on setting up a date is really all you need. If she says "no," you persist a few more times, but if you keep getting "no"s then it's time to move on. And if she says "yes," well, then, you'll be glad you got to it and didn't let things fade out by taking too long to pull the trigger.
A fun text might be something like, "So, want to come see if you can change my shallow lady choices over hot chocolates next week?"
If she's any fun at all, she's almost obligated to say "Okay, sure," to that.
Chase
Girls are not heartless :)
Chase,
You are right about almost everything you write on this site concerning women and their emotions.
But, I have to tell you guys, women don't just simply move on, they have hearts too, they fall for guys hard. The thing is, as a woman, even if you fall for a guy, there is only so much you can do to show your interest... Guys can be aggressive in their pursuit, women have to be coy. If they don't do it just right, game is off, the guys is not hooked and chances are you might not see each other ever again. I was hung up on someone for close to 10 years (big sigh). Does he know about it? I am almost certain that he doesn't... And it is not because I had no options, I actually have an abundance mentality dialed all the way up. That is not the issue. But once so often you meet someone and they are not perfect, but they floor you, something about them just makes you go sick for them, you try to forget them, move on, but you can't.. I think I am not the only woman who has experienced this - lots of heartache and feeling helpless... Literally. It is very very sad and, Chase, please don't tell guys that women just shrug things off and move on. They do a lot of the times, but not always. Some love you so much but you'd never know it.
Hope my 2 cents were helpful to someone ;)
Girl
Fairytale ending isn't always
Wallflower,
I know a girl who loved me too, a girl in school. Her voice sounds blissfully happy when i call her today, but then she got a boyfriend. I definitely can take her away from him. But then again, i did my best to get her, she didn't reciprocate. Then she was in tears infront of her boyfriend when we were in final year in school, and that was her birthday that is also the last time i see her.
Guess you can't always have fairytale endings, or i shall keep my fingers cross. I'm still alive.
Zac
Yeah I think I possible may
Yeah I think I possible may have screwed myself with the texts.
Last night I sent her another out of sheer bordem.
Me: Hey, Sarah! What's up?
Her: Just doing homework.
Me: Lame! ;P I just got back from band practice.
And then no response back after that. I don't see her again until Thursday, so should I wait till then to see how she treats me and ask her out the next day via text(no way to get her alone at school, as her best friend is always present)? Or maybe drop her all together, as it sounds like I may have missed my window.
Girls Not Heartless
Wallflower-
Of course! I know this as well as any. Sorry if the article came across that way.
Generally speaking, it's better to have strict guidelines you follow in sticky / complicated situations like this simply because it's too easy to get trapped in inertia. The problem with the "guy likes girl, girl likes guy, guy and girl don't do anything, girl dates some other guy, girl tells first guy she still likes him, guy doesn't know what to do, still doesn't do anything" scenario is that usually the guy didn't do anything to begin with, and isn't going to do anything now. If he is, it's fine - he can do something, and either it'll work and the girl will leave her current man and run off for her fairy tale ending with him, or it won't and she'll stay with her current guy and the first guy can move on with his life.
Re: motives, people tend to do things in their selfish best interests... but not out of heartlessness so much as out of lack of awareness of their effects on others. The more enlightened and empathetic people will let others go so they can go live their lives and find happiness and love and companionship if they can't give them that. Most aren't thinking for others like this though, and just ask people to stick around and wait for them to choose - essentially, asking for sacrifice, with the promise of "maybe, someday, we will be together," then frequently not rewarding that sacrifice with the desired object of the sacrificer in the end (and this goes both ways; men holding onto women in go-nowhere relationships, too).
I've seen a few situations where the guy waits around and eventually the girl breaks up with her guy and gets together with him. The vast majority of the ones I've seen though, the guy hangs around forever, the girl never gets together with him, and it ends up spending a lot of his time and he leaves a lot more bitter toward women and romance than when he went in... which is something I want to avoid guys going through.
No girl wants to end up with the embittered man who wasted too long waiting for some girl who was never going to be his... and I don't like having to moderate bitter comments from guys who think women are all ice queens because one woman once in their lives asked them to wait and nothing came of it!
Chase
Fairytales?
Hey Zac,
Without further details it is difficult to say what exactly is going on with your girl there.. I hope you get her eventually. Use Chase's tactics, he has great info on this site.
And well, at this point in my life I know for sure that fairytale endings don't exist, but once in a while it would be nice to not miss out on the fairytale beginning . Those still exist... I hope :) It's when you don't even get the beginnings that you feel totally jipped, in my opinion.
I don't think you can have everlasting love with anyone ever for that matter.. Maybe Chase could correct me here?
What if we already slept together?
Chase,
I've had a girl who I used to chase, but stopped chasing because I started meeting more women. Fortunately ( about 4-5 months) of ignoring random birthday wishes and unnecessary greetings, she gets drunk with her friends and invite me over later that night. It was there we meet, started kissing and getting intimate where she asked me two questions: 1 ( why havent t you had a girlfriend within the 3 years we've known each other) 2 ( why haven't we ever had sex). The answer to the first question was because I was busy and I asked her the same thing and she told me she was scared of getting into a relationship and something better coming along. The answer to the second i couldnt think of an answer so I escalated. We slept together that night and unfortunately I had to leave early the next morning for class. After a couple of days, I asked her if she wanted to grab lunch and she told me she wouldn't be free until about a week later. I like this girl, but I'm not naive to the fact that women string men along and I'm not sure if she wants me as a boyfriend or just a lover... What are your thoughts on the best thing to do? I want to settle down and have a girlfriend for a bit and I think this is the one, but I don't know how to go about it...
Seeing Her Again
Anon-
See this article - there's an exact prescription in there for seeing her again once you've slept with her once already:
3 Second Date Strategies to Make Her Flirt and Swoon
Also, even if you think she's "The One," keep your cool and start it off slow and let her chase the relationship a bit. No one wants to date someone they think is cheap with their emotions... let her win you over a bit. Start out as a secret lover and let her eventually start pushing to make things public and let her win some victories there. That doesn't mean act cold or aloof or disinterested... just don't throw yourself at her with complete reckless abandon from the get-go. Let her warm up to things first.
Chase
Totally Confused!
Dude, you are so right.
I had the similar situation. Heck, I told myself, this girl wont do this to me she is too nice but it happened and like you have said, she probably did not do it on purpose.
We worked at the same place, we became good friends. I basically, spent the whole year listening to her problems about her boy friends...all of them bunch of douche bags. I thought for my self, damn I can do 100 times better than these guys and she will be happy. We were chatting everyday at work and chatted a lot over whatsapp. (At that time I could not see that she was using me to make her feel better, I always listened and comforted her)
I left my old job for an awesome new job and I was thinking that now that we do not work together I might have a better chance (with this dont date people at work). As soon as she got the idea I wanted to be more than just friends, she started to chat a lot less with me and giving very short and uninteresting replies.
I was so confused and really mad at the same time, I didnt know WTF was going on. Her friend told me that she told her that she sees me as a brother and she was getting the idea I was pushing for more than just friends.
(I didnt tell her I had crazy insane feelings for her and ... BLAH BLAH, you know the rest)
Have not spoken to her for about 10 days now, I am usually the person who starts the conversation over whatsapp. So I got a bluddy message auto rejection without even telling her.
I do not even know if I should bother telling her ... To be honest, I have stopped trying to understand why and this and that. I am now just looking at ACTIONS like you have said. This whole thing is keeping me away from meeting new woman because I was stuck in this whole of "she likes me and this can work, I should be patient" mentality.
I am a good looking guy, I am successful at my job and I live I healthy life but for some reason I being a dumbass and hope for this one girl and not even going out to meet new ones...
This article just gave me a proper slap in the face...time to wake up.
You are awesome!!! Thanks for spending your time to help the poor old lost fools like us ;-)
Slap in the Face
Frederik-
Glad to hear the article helped wake you up.
One thing to always remember, when you hear girls complaining about guys they're dating - actions vs. words is right.
Her words are saying, "Oh, why do I keep ending up with these guys, I hate it!"
Her actions are saying, "I keep ending up with these kinds of guys, because these are the guys I want."
Actions are the ones you want to listen to when you run into this.
Anyway, I usually just run the other way when I meet girls who start complaining about their boyfriends. It's clear they aren't comfortable with the kind of men they're most attracted to, but since those are the men they're most attracted to, they're going to keep dating them, and keep being uncomfortable. They're perpetually unhappy damsels in distress.
Chase
damsel in distress - rescuer
This is an old comment but anyway. I had this personality trait for as long as I can remember, I love to be the rescuer of fragile girls. I got involved in a similar situation. Being the pillow for a girl so she can vent endlessly. I started to develop attachement, found beauty in her non-prettiness. First girl I tried to touch too. She left a deep print in my mind. I still don't know how to deal with it. As of now I can only try to fix my life; we shared many issues, even though she was a lot more down than I was. Now the situation flipped, I'm as insecure if not even more than she was when we talked.
There's something I don't like in pure attraction, something that draws me to feel deeper for distress girls. Lack of self-esteem fueling this. But I find the affection of this distress/rescue pattern more valuable than desire based relationship.
When a girl shows interest
When a girl shows interest initiates the texts, agrees to go out even asks about details seems enthusiastic about it/ flirting involved but even after she initiates the conversation and all this happens as soon as I follow through with making a solid game plan..such as what are you up to this weekend? I might work Saturday you? I'm off work I figured I'd see what your up to maybe we can work something out..nothing...same thing happened twice..I show no reaction and usually act like it didn't even phase me and I'm assuming she was tied up..so I'll give some radio silence and see how she's been..but after the pattern of this happening twice I'm pretty confused..it seems kind of ignorant to just not even text back a reply when I try to set up a solid date/time..why did she bother to text me then? And after this happens I usually won't here from her at all...you would think she must be talking to other men and doesn't know what she wants to do yet but keeps me
On the backburner but We have a mutual friend who when I mention that we made plans she never follows thru further with and she might be talking
To other guys which isn't a big deal she states she knows for a fact she's not:.so what could the deal be?? Thanks-
Showing Interest but Not Going on Dates
AnonymousSure-
This almost certainly means she enjoys text flirting with you more than she enjoys the prospect of actually going on dates with you or having you as more than a texting buddy.
What I'd recommend you do is this: don't respond via text to her anymore at all. When she texts you, wait 10 minutes or so and then call her on the phone. Get right to the point pretty quickly and say, "Hey, instead of us texting like this all the time, let's just grab some food and meet up. When's good for you?" If she's really trying to keep you as just a texting buddy, she's going to freeze like a deer in the headlights, panic, stutter, and make some kind of excuse, and you'll know she's just wasting your time. If she's cool about it and wants to meet up though, then set a time with her (make sure you do it over the phone, don't let her say she'll text you later), and meet her. If you get voicemail, just leave her that quick message: "Hey Sophie - just figured instead of texting you back I'd call you and see when you want to meet. Too much texting, not enough hanging out. Let me know when's good and let's plan it up!"
Basically, you're communicating that you're done running around in circles (and you do it in a nice way, of course), and you tell her it's put up or shut up time.
She'll either disappear - if she really doesn't want to go out with you - or she'll show up for the date, and then you can work your magic.
Either way, you're rid of a girl who wasn't interested and just wasting your time, OR you're on a date with her and not chasing your tail anymore. Much better, regardless the outcome.
Chase
Hey Chase, So listen to this
Hey Chase,
So listen to this one and help out if you can. I am sooo deep in the friendzone they're making internet memes for my story. I took a risk though, and it paid off. I asked her for a chance to change her mind about me on a date. SHe said yes. And was excited AF. she stopped talking to me since then though. Im not too worried about that yet though. But what i am worried about is planning this date. If i have one shot do I go all out keep it low key or find a happy medium. Keeping in mind there arent a lot of coffee shops in the bahamas. What do you think?
Are we just friends?
Hey mate, just a bit confused really so I was hoping you could offer a bit of advice on the situation. Basically me and this girl have been on a few dates, we have kissed/cuddled/held hands, but she claims she isn't ready to be in another relationship; she left a 2 year one 3 months ago. I was thinking that if she spends more time with me then she will develop stronger feelings for me and it will eventually happen, what do you think?
Tricky Sitch
I'm in a situation where I believe there's some intellectual attraction between myself and a young woman. Currently she is in a relationship of about 4 years. A few things I've noticed:
She holds on to my phrases, engages me in witty banter, and often speaks to me for hours at a time.
Is that the trap? Am I getting "zoned"? Last week she kept repeating in our conversation that I was "charming"; I shrugged it - ala Sprezzatura - which is probably why she said it as often as she did. I'm a pretty chill guy and I don't make moves to impress...It's never been my style. Anyways, she has a man, and I don't want to cause any trouble (He seems nice enough). When I speak she listens, we rarely text except to meet up, and we speak for long periods of time. Which she says she looks forward to. She also does a lot of preening/gives a lot of IoI's.
How do I gauge if she is attracted to me or not? Where do I go from here?
Sometimes guys go off the deep end. I just want to know if there is a sure-fire test to gauge and anticipate if a girl friend digs you, doesn't dig you... or wants you to dig her out.
Just sayin'
Love your site by the way. Extremely thought provoking .
"Not Sure"
Hi Chase,
I echo many of the positive comments here on the article – awesome read! A part that is relevant to me – I told a girl whom I met just once that I like her and she said she is not keen to have any relationship now and she cannot be attracted to a guy so fast. Sensing what could be a nicey rejection attempt, I quickly assured her I can wait till she is ready and I asked whether she wants to stay as friends forever (basically I want to know whether I have been friendzoned). She replied she is not sure – which according to your article, is a “code” she wants me to stick around till she decide. I noted she is more guarded after learning I want to be more than friends ..but we are still texting on a daily basis. And she still agree to go out with me .. I wasn’t sure whether this is a sign she is bit interested because I would assume she would make all sorts of excuse to not meet up IF she has friendzoned me after now learning I am interested to be more than friends. Again she could be just nice not to reject my invitation to hit the town but wouldn’t one be feeling uncomfortable going out with someone he/she doesn’t like romantically at all and whom he/she knows is keen to be more than friends? The burning question to me is whether I still stand a chance with her and if not, I try not to waste any more time and effort with her. Appreciate if I can get some expert advice and thought
Exactly where I am. Thank you
Exactly where I am.
Thank you for writing this. I'm in the exact same situation. I guess most of our experiences are more universal than we think. I've been trying to move on for a long time, and she's been very good at making this hard in exactly this way. But you've made everything crystal clear and hopefully it helps with getting some closure.
thanks
thanx guys for this website,its been a great help to me
Should I move on or Should I wait for her to message me?
Hi Chase,
Your articles are very helpful and really helps a lot
I have this situation. Actually, I like a girl and we know each other for the last 2 years. When I met her first, she was in a relationship and we were good friends. Talked to each other a lot almost everyday. I started feeling for her and told her about this. She also said she liked me though she was in relationship. So, we never went ahead in this, but we always talk as very good friends till the time she was dumped by her boyfriend. After she broke up and giving her some time, I proposed her and she accepted it too. But she was always confuse about it because of which I get messed up easily and we fought. Actually the problem was she never talks to me when I want to talk to me but she only talks when she wanted to whether it is after 2 days or after 1 week. And she always have friends around her to give her suggestions on this which makes this relationship a mess always. And yeah it was long distance not that too long but we were not in the same city. Then we dragged this relationship in this way only. On and Off always.
Now she is in the same city with me for few months. And i tried approaching her again so that we can clear up all the mess and start over again. She met me on first date and we had a good talk, clear up the mess. I gave her some gifts too which I purchased for her from abroad(Germany). She was very happy and told me that on a 2nd date which was my birthday after a week she wants to go for night out. And we went to a very nice hotel room after having dinner on 2nd date and had sex.
Then suddenly I do not know what happens, After 2 days she started lying to me again. She was talking to somebody late night for hours and hours but she told me soething else giving an excuse of not talking to me. And I again fought with her because she was lying. And suddenly next day she told me she does not wanna continue. And I was like completely shocked on why?? And I also ended up with a bad note and ignored her. Then she called me up after 2 days and said the same things again, I went emotional. She was giving excuses and all. Then suddenly after few days she texted me that she want to meet me and I was out of town to give a fresh start but God knows why she wanted to meet me again. And I told her I am out of town and will meet her when I will come back. And she told me she will meet next week. And when I went back and asked her out she was like not interested again, dragging the meeting daily by saying the same I have this this work today and will catch up tomorrow. Asking her daily and she was dragging and when I was completely ou of my patience after a week, I went to meet her without her permission, shouted on her, abused her(said a whore and slut) by saying she is a confused personality and only making me confuse and disturbing me mentally. And then I never contacted again after that.
She still likes my pictured on Facebook account It's now been 3 weeks, I have not contacted her and she also did not but she always likes my pictures on facebook which makes me thik of approaching her. I asked her today after 3 weeks if she wanna meet and she replied that someday we will meet.
I do not know what to do. This girl has made me crazy. I really love her a lot, letting her go. I do not should I move on and never contacted her again even if she is contacting me. Or should I wait untill she texts me?
Reply to this guy in the article
“I wrote off a girl (well have tried to anyway with great difficulty) I felt strongly for about a year ago due to the fact that although she expressed strong interested in me, she moved onto another guy due to me moving too slow, being aloof etc.”
Got it.
“Since then, as part of bringing closure to the whole episode, I read all these theories about escalation-windows and auto-rejection, and concluded that this was most likely what happened in my case, and thus put the whole thing to rest, reaching acceptance that anything we had was over (well at least trying my best with these steps), and resolving not to make these 'mistakes' again with the next someone special who comes along.”
Good!
"As it is not often that someone who I feel is really special comes into my life I did not react to the apparent loss by trying to find someone else, as I knew it would be highly unlikely that I would come across two girls who made me feel this way within such a short space of time."
IF you don’t have a way of meeting and getting together with girls then yes it is highly if not completely unlikely.
Also, you don’t need a girl as good as her to start getting over her – even someone 50% as good as her will ease the pain. Ie if say getting a girl who is just kind of your type might ease it to where at least you aren’t desperate and completely broken, but just kind of sad.
"And I wasn't going to get one to use to try and make her jealous either, as not only do I not play such games, but it would be hard to find one as attractive as her (at least to me anyway). "
Why not? Why not “play such games” – reality is that girls pay attention to guys who have other girls around them. Also “as attractive as her” has likely more to do with your infatuation over her and projecting her to be that attractive. In addition, who says you need someone as attractive as her to make a girl jealous? How do you know if she thinks she is that attractive? And even if she did think so, the emotional impact of a situation that would make her jealous would override any logic… AND, would she do the same to you? Or would she not give a fuck, and if she saw the opportunity and maybe would make you jealous (hypothetically)?
"So I have basically just spent the entire time feeling very down over the whole thing and hoping someone else would come along that would help me forget about her."
Nice. Well amongst us practicing seduction, “hoping” is a very delusional word, and not one that entails taking responsibility and creating what you want.
"Yet I was recently left pretty much stunned to find out that the girl in question had never given up on me, never moved on, and never really went into this supposed process of 'auto-rejection' at all (don't ask how she chose to demonstrate this to me, it's too complicated to explain here). She had actually went to what are in my view the pretty extraordinary lengths of getting involved in an apparent ever-increasingly serious relationship spanning over a year - including moving in with the guy - throughout the entire time I was trying to come to acceptance that anything we had was long gone and unrepairable, while all the while still having her sights firmly set on me."
Nice. However “firmly” she had her eyes on you and whatever that might mean, it clearly involved NOT being with you, and fucking another guy day in day out, AND moving in with him, spending time with HIM, messaging HIM all day, all the while you were down hoping and wallowing in your misery fantasizing about her!
“The effect of this on me has been a bit like being told by a loved one that they only had a year or two left to live - going through the processes of anger/frustration/denial mourning and acceptance - only to find out it was all only a joke and one of these 'tests'.”
So dramatic bro. Got a love story and a poem written next to this? Sounds like an emotional rollercoaster.
"Now I'm torn between deciding whether or not to just leave her to her own devices with the guy (who seems nice and who she must at least like, but definitely doesn't love) she used all this time to get under my skin (thus making her the ultimate loser in this long game, but at the same time not only depriving her of me, but me of her as well), or to swallow my pride, accept that the pain caused by the whole thing was partially my own fault, and come up with a way of approaching her with the aim of fixing the whole thing and putting the games to an end. It's an agonizing decision to have to make. We're both in our final year at college, and the college environment has proven a good one for this type of long game, as I can't simply avoid her, and can't leave it either (unless I take time out which would show she's getting to me)."
I don’t think there is any “decision” here – don’t delude yourself. Being hung up on the same thoughts and same emotional state for a year is anything but a decision – it is indecision. An indecisive state caused by your fantasy of a girl who isn’t with you and in reality is with someone else, and you’ve sold yourself on some romantic hope that hasn’t come to fruition. You’re in scarcity without girls, and without any precedent of being able to get girls out (romantically) on a regular basis, so you’re coping with that void through your fantasy of this “special girl”.
“On the one hand I don't want my own stubbornness to be a permanent source of regret over what could have been with this girl”
Aaaaah the good ‘ole “what if” – you’re so in scarcity you’re not even realizing the severity of ALREADY having lost a year in fantasy WITHOUT girls… because of some imaginative “could have” with this girl do you regret that? (Sometime in the future you will. You aren’t realizing that the “could have” is purely meaningless in the face of reality, and if in practice it hasn’t come to fruition that’s a great trend to suggest it won’t. “Regret” is irrelevant here because you’ve had a year to have it happen, and it hasn’t.
"while on the other hand I don't want to give into this manipulative behavior and feel like she herself could maybe do with learning a life lesson about the risks involved in playing these games. If neither of us gives ground over it, we'll both go through a lot of sadness and regret which will probably stay with us for a very long time, but at the same time we will each learn some valuable lessons over it all. Or one of us could just simply reach out to the other and bring the whole thing to a happy conclusion. Although she's got involved with this guy to such an extent, including actually living with him for our whole last year at college and now nearing finals, that bringing everything to a happy conclusion won't be simple at all. What course of action would any of you guys do/advise in this situation?"
You’re pretending that this is some “hard choice” and projecting that she also has some big stake in it, when in reality she’s being dicked by another guy she is living with. The elaborate words with which you describe the consequences of each choice and the different ways this could unfold just shows that you are ultimately still hung up on this, and emotionally attached to the obsessive fantasy you had over this girl. You don’t actually want to let go – now the reason for not wanting to let go is a delusional one – yet an inevitable consequence of having a void of girls in your life, and attaching to a romantic fantasy to escape that void.
"I just wanted to highlight that all these auto-rejection and escalation-window theories are too simplistic (unless of course when applied to nightclub hookups or situations where either party wouldn't be particularly bothered if they never saw the other person again). Where special feelings have begun to develop a woman can't just go into auto-rejection mode with someone she's falling in love with and make such feelings simply disappear, especially over something so laughably trivial as the guy moving too slow for her liking or him being a bit aloof. "
Actually she can just go into that – and maybe just partially but that’s even enough to start making things harder for you.
"The whole idea of 'Escalation Windows' is also similarly simplistic and is by and large only applicable to casual hook-ups too. If two people really have powerful feelings for each other they will never just go away, and one party won't simply be able to write off the other simply because they didn't move fast enough within some time frame. Maybe it would be a good thing if everyone could be as clinical as that with their emotions, but the reality is that things are not so simple and most people of either sex can't."
You’re really just trying to ride off of “it’s complicated”. Because you have to have it be “more complicated” in order to give yourself hope. You also have to be in massive scarcity and disproportionately overvalue a girl (you aren’t even with!) to have spent a FUCKING YEAR dissecting all the little elements of the situation and pining over a fantasy, while she was fucking another guy, and while you WEREN’T meeting other girls. You need to wake the fuck up.
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