What Caused the Trust Collapse Between Women and Men? | Girls Chase

What Caused the Trust Collapse Between Women and Men?

Chase Amante

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men women trustA recent article on loneliness exploded to the top of Hacker News (the Reddit-like programming and entrepreneurship newsboard). The article clearly struck a chord. The thrust of the article was that the decline of the family has led to an epidemic of lonely people.

In the comment section below the article, a reader had this to say:

After numerous attempts to find a reasonable/semi-normal female "life-companion" I gave up at 50. I tried to overlook the hostility and conceit they had towards men in general at first, until neurosis and personality disorders would reveal themselves later - if the relationship got that far. I felt like I was in a competition and she was determined to "win".

It's many things, but the enmity and distrust that feminism has caused between men and women is by far the most significant contributor. Men are the "enemy" that must be defeated. Why are the majority of homeless white men? They surrendered.

It's a sentiment that seems to be bursting out of the stitches among more and more people. Women express similar sentiments as often as men -- this isn't a purely male issue.

At the core of it, the real center of the issue, is the cultural phenomenon of 'trust collapse'.

The great tragedy of our time is this breakdown in trust between the people... and, particular to this website's mission, the breakdown in trust between the sexes. When the sexes trust each other, anything is possible. When they do not, society comes undone at the seams.

The sexes have battled throughout history; a little tension is nothing new. Yet rarely does the fight grow as embittered as it's today become.

Today more and more women are distrustful toward men. They worry there are rapists behind every tree. They opine that women are paid less than men (and thus, implicitly undervalued). They jump when a stranger approaches, or chide men not to walk up to them in the first place. At the same time, they wonder where the good men have gone, and instruct men that now that they are ready to marry, it's time for those men to be ready too.

Just as women's trust in men has crumbled, so too has men's in women. Many men fear false accusations of harassment (described as "sometimes just a different perspective" in this article), false accusations of sexual assault, or false accusations of rape. Men with good careers walk on eggshells around female colleagues, wary not to become easy prey for unscrupulous corporate climbers (all a woman has to do is say a man did something to her, the same way the football player feigns injury to penalize his opponent and benefit his own team). Many men fear the power women wield in marriage courts, and the loss of their children and assets and lives in the event of a divorce. Some swear off marriage under current Western law; others swear off dating entirely. In a recent 'sexual harassment backlash' survey by the very feminist Lean In organization, 60% of male managers report now being uncomfortable mentoring, working alone with, or socializing outside of work with female employees.

While not everyone has caught it as bad as the more sensitive (and paranoid) among us, everyone has felt it to some extent. And plenty have felt it to large extent... between 2008 and 2018, a mere 10 year gap, the number of 18-29 year old men not having sex in America rocketed up from 10% of them to a whopping 28%.

As the relations between the sexes have increasingly frayed, more and more individuals have come out as preferring their own same sex instead. That number increased by 17% in only four years, between 2012 and 2016. Among millennials, in 2012, 5.8% were homosexual; just four years later, in 2016, a full 7.3% were out of the closet (so much for the ol' "only 1-2% of the population is gay" chestnut you used to hear, huh?). And the fertility rate in the U.S. hits new all-time lows pretty much every year.

How do make heads or tails of all this?

What is happening to the mating market in the West?

Is there any sense we can make of this at all, or is it all just a bunch of unfathomable deep civilizational processes, layers beneath layers, impossible to peel back?

Well, we're going to peel the layers back. And we'll see if we can arrive at an understanding of just what's afoot in all these tremors we've felt in the modern mating market.

Fortunately, there are white polished stones that lead the way us to follow. Let's see where those stones lead.

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his One Date System.

GET CHASE’S ONE DATE SYSTEM

Comments

Jasper's picture

Hey Chase,

The girl I'm sleeping with sometimes mentions her ex. This upsets me slightly though I never told her.
Is it a good idea to ask her not to speak about him? She herself asked me not to mention other girls cause she gets extremely jealous. Yet she doesn't fail to mention her ex and her other male friends (she's got many)

Also, she's very unstable. At times she's highly affectionate but there are moments when she's a real storm. I don't really know how to handle that. She's really hot and lots of fun to fuck (her sex drive extremely high. Had no problem the first time we had sex).
It's just these instability issues that drive me nuts at times.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Jasper-

"Hey, I'm glad you dig your ex. But I'll tell you, you asked me not to talk about mine, then you talk about yours constantly. And I want to hear about yours about as much as you want to hear about mine. So figure out what you want to do. You can talk about yours and I'll talk about mine, and we'll have a good time trading ex war stories. Or you can not talk about yours and I won't talk about mine. Let me know which is better."

Then just remind her the next 4-5 times she does it. Then if she continues to do it after that, make an obvious in-her-face ex reference when she does it:

HER: blah blah my ex was SO annoying!

YOU: I know. My ex was great but she did this annoying thing with her teeth. I have no idea why she did that.

HER: OMG I told you not to talk about your exes around me!

YOU: I thought we agreed. If you talk about it so will I. You keep talking about it, so I figured it was fair game. I'm just following your lead here.

As for the instability... well. Make sure you've read this article:

Spotting (and Avoiding) Cluster B Women

Chase

SZ's picture

Hey Chase,

Had questions, not many questions, but they're pretty detailed because of the new dating experiences I've been going through since I talked to you last time. I don't plan on writing this much again anytime soon, but please bear with me because a lot has been going on that I'm stumped on.

The good news is I've been going out solo more, using apps, getting in the gym, stepping out of my comfort zone, and working on other things for some time.

1. I know dating apps and clubs aren't the best places, but isn't that the easiest way to meet a lot of women? I'm trying to get to my 100 notch count goal and I'd like to try to get there as fast as I can (within 2-4 years), I just started apps, but I figured I could get some luck or something, but haven't, same with clubs. I keep doing club game because I want to succeed in it and master it , but it's been so many years of not getting anywhere I don't know anymore.

I'm surprised bars are one of the best places to meet women.

Anyway, if I'm trying to reach 100 notches wouldn't the apps and clubs be my only choice to do it quickly? I know you made an article about how to do it, but most require a life change that I'm not ready to commit to yet, so I wanted to focus on these two because I believe I can get more notches because of the volume of women I can meet. 

Do you think it's still possible to reach 100 in about the same time with mostly day game? I feel it'll take me a lot longer with day game than apps and club, I'm guessing I'll have to combine them, but the girls I get are flakey from apps and clubs I admit, but I still have to get good at all aspects of game to reach where I want to reach.

2. My thing with the apps is this, how do some guys get laid so much with them? Not talking about guys who girls think look extremely good, I mean guys who get girls to come out and actually not flake on them and come back with them to sleep with them with minimal games?  I get many matches, so my profile is decent, but I get girls who just go ghost. There's success stories on the forums of dudes sleeping with so many girls off apps, that's basically what I'm trying to do, get as many lays as I can in a fast time so I can stop worrying about this. A dude I know said he slept with 20+ girls off apps in a few months. Other dudes I know keep talking about all the girls they smash and dates they get off apps, but for me I just get bullshit, how come? I get their numbers fast, give them a quick call to build rapport and they are excited for the date, then ghost. I follow all your tips for talking on the phone, texting, setting the date up, etc. I just don't get how these guys get laid so easy and I'm here struggling to even get a chick out, even though I'm getting matches galore. Are they just getting lucky? Why am I not getting anything? What can I do to get these girls from apps to meet up like these guys are?

3. There was a stretch of time where I would go out 2-3 nights per week to the clubs consistently for over 2-3 years. I have had numbers, dances, and kisses galore, but no meet ups after. I know you say this is one of the worst ways to get dates and you should use them for ons, but when the hell do u get a lucky break? I can't get one girl to come out with me after going out for years? I know the club sucks, but how is that even possible I couldn't even get lucky at all? Then you have the dating apps, no luck with that either? I'm not even talking about sex, I'm talking about dates and a chance to have it.

What could I be doing wrong for going out for years and not having one girl meet up at all after?

How can I get many matches on apps and not meet up with one girl? When there's dudes who started off worse than me cleaning up?

I feel like a pathetic loser because I have all this knowledge from here and get good responses from women all these years and I haven't gotten a girl out from any of these places for years. 

4. So with the hotel, is it better to not ask the girl about going to her place and just try the hotel invite? I heard girls will feel slutty, how do we fix that? And should we pay for the whole thing?

5. Do you still recommend not paying for dates? Even if it's a coffee, drinks, ice cream, etc.? How do you not look cheap going dutch on those things. Just making sure.

6. Think you could make an article when you shouldn't reach out to a flake?/like it's a waste of time to contact again? And how you should contact them again if you do? I recently had a flake (Dating app smh) where a girl literally spoke to me days and the day prior, very excited to see me, gave me compliance, all of that, then day of, she flaked, no response. So I called her a few days later, she gave her excuse and she said she wanted to see me, it never happened because she went ghost again. Dudes on the forum said if a chick wants to see you she will, but I know you say chicks can flake and to be cool about it, but I feel I wasted my time with this one. So maybe you can give me some quick tips on if you should reach out to a flake or should she be the one to reach out to you first? And if so what's the best way to reach out and get a date? For example, should you wait for a girl to hit you up if she didn't respond to you the day of the date? Or should you just forget about her if she doesn't hit you back in a few days? That happened to me, she never hit me up, but I called her a few days later and she was nice and submissive, she still didn't come out though, so I want to know when should we just leave a flake alone?

7. Why is getting girls so hard for me? Well getting dates and laid with many women? I was on this site for years, dudes I went out with for years getting more lucky than me and they don't know about any of this shit, they just get more lucky than me in the same environments. These guys aren't spitting much game, I see them, the girls do most of the work from giving the number to setting up the date. Im not saying every girl is doing this, but some do. This is not even just night game, college game too (which is like day game) I went through a whole semester without any chicks showing me any signs of attraction, which surprises the hell out of me, I have been going hard to be more social and stepping out my comfort zone a lot in college. I can't think of any attraction signals being thrown my way at all during that whole semester. While one of my boys got an easy lay from a chick that did all the work for him that seen him on campus.

So I don't get why this is so hard and unlucky for me to succeed at all, I don't even get bones thrown at me or any luck, and this has been going on for 5+ years!! Ive always been in decent shape, and I have good fashion, great hygine, hairstyle, etc, many people have told me this. There's something I'm not getting or understanding that guys who don't even study this stuff get, this shouldn't be this hard for me really. I hope somehow you can pinpoint what is going on where nothing is working for me, it feels like there some power over me to not get women consistently and it is 10 times harder than it should be. I hope you can tell me what I could be doing wrong and help me get this feeling off of me. I feel I should get lucky some of the time while I work on myself, I put myself in a lot of nerve wracking situations in college and going out solo and this is months were talking, I'm being more social, talking more, trying to join groups while being way older than the students, I'm trying here for real!! I should get a couple of dates and lays, or at least a chick making conversation with me to make things easier some of the time. But there's just something that is making it hard for me to get some luck, hope you can help me solve this problem I've been having for a while.

Thanks!!

Author
Chase Amante's picture

SZ-

You're not going to hit 100 notches without a major lifestyle shift. Your life has to be about getting laid, at least for a few years, to do serious numbers. There's just no getting around that. You could do it with day game, night game, whatever... but your life must revolve around it.

Re: apps, if you have One Date, take a look at the bonus book by Alexander Abraham in there. It has his complete system for killing it off apps, and is as good as anything out there.

Re: not getting dates from nightclubs, think about it like this: if you want a woman you met at a nightclub to meet up with you some other time, you need something special going on. Either you need to really strike her as a possible boyfriend candidate, or she has to find you sexy enough to want to meet up and potentially sleep with. If you didn't impress her as very sexy or a potential boyfriend, you're just another club rando she won't meet up with after.

Hotels, sure, ask about their place first. Or better yet, feel out their logistics. You should have a decent idea if the girl's place is a viable option before you even ask; just check her logistics during the conversation. I suggest you pay the first 10-15 times with new girls; after that, once you've got a pattern down and you know you can pull it off, you can experiment with getting girls to pitch in or pay outright themselves instead. As for them feeling slutty, like any pull: just keep the conversation going, keep it light, and keep the pressure off.

Yes, I still recommend not paying for dates. Unless you are clearly the distinguished older gentleman. Dress well, be smooth, and don't get in weird situations where you've boxed yourself in and have to pay or look stingy, and you're fine.

Re: flakes, yeah, I could possibly do another article on flakes. Let me have a think on it.

Re: being a hard case, I don't know man. There's a distinct minority of guys who study game, do their best to apply it, and never make it work that well. Off the top of my head I can think of four different guys I've seen, you being one of them. One's a friend I have worked with a lot over the years, and while we've improved his results, to the point where he can get the women he wants now, he still can't hold onto them in a relationship. And it is just the weirdest thing and I can't figure out why it is happening to him and neither can he or anyone else. I'm sure if I spent a week with a guy like this I could figure it out, and it's almost always some selection of social cues he's missing or basic things he's doing wrong. But the guy himself doesn't know, and he can't tell you, and it's just impossible to figure out over text. You should be getting the guys you've seen do better to give you their critiques of why you aren't succeeding. Better still, ask them to go out with you over the course of a month and keep an eye out for what you are doing wrong, and at the end of the month tell you what you're getting wrong. If you can get a few guys to do this, you'll get some actionable feedback.

Chase

Axe Rogue's picture

Hey Chase,

 

Great analysis. What I always like about your work is the methodical way you break things down. If you had a book about social dynamics for personal/work, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

 

What is your take regarding this competitive behaviour when it comes to location in the US? Is one more prone to see it in liberal places (LA, NYC, etc.) versus conservative ones like the South?

 

Axe

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Axe-

You know, that's an interesting question.

I thought about it some... and I don't think there's a difference.

Competition can be fierce in some liberal parts of the country. California, for instance -- there are a lot of very liberal men, who are very competitive. But conservative men can be extremely competitive too.

Their competitiveness can take different flavors. Liberal men are more likely to try to compete by making it seem like you are their intellectual or ethical inferior. Conservative men are more likely to try to compete by making it seem like you are their physical or cultural inferior. Both can be very competitive, though. Although neither necessarily is.

I've spent a lot more time in liberal cities than I have in conservative areas. But just among liberal locales, I can say that places with a higher male:female ratio tend to be a lot more competitive (e.g., 'Man Francisco' and 'Man Diego' feature much more competitive males than New York and Washington, D.C.). I'd suspect it's the same in conservative country too.

Chase

blogster's picture

This is a very accurate description of life today.  Not just in America but in other western countries.  I currently live in one, which has a strong feminist influence, in the capital city.  You very accurately describe the situation on the ground. 

Unfortunately my experience (and pre-emptive observation prior to deciding whether to engage with someone), is it is too far gone in a number of ways.  I am well versed in gender politics, the 'red pill' and are widely enough read and educated to understand things without the indoctrination and propaganda of the modern force of left-wing feminist politics.

On the other hand, where I live now, most are incredibly insular, having lived 'inside the bubble' of 'tolerant', 'progressive' politics; it's all they know.  Trying to even explain the situation in a meta-sense would be foreign, confusing and 'offensive' to them, even if I tried.  

As a result, I simply do not bother interacting with locals beyond a few who pass through my filters and tests.  I am living the reality I first read about in blogs.  They are mostly far too blinkered and brainwashed.

The situation on the ground? Even friendly banter is frowned upon.  Touch a woman on the shoulder whilst making conversation? Well, you are acting entitled.  Observe the biological differences between men and women? Sexist and misogynist.  Women frequently comment on the barriers in place for women, yet we have female national political leaders and my organisation is mostly staffed with women in top positions.  Even HR at my office, without any relevance, talk about how important it is that women are given the opportunity to be in higher positions because of past prejudice etc.  Any attempt to act in a natural, masculine manner is either derided or shamed.  In short, women both in my office and around town, want compliant gimps.  I am astounded by the men attractive women date: meek, effeminate, compliant gimps.  Yet I have been called 'intimidating' for acting in a strong, confident, masculine manner.  As you said, women have been trained to view this as 'acting out privilege', 'toxic masculinity' etc.

Companies in my industry proudly trumpet plans to increase the number of women in senior leadership positions, rather than looking at positions based on merit.  This gives me little hope for the future.  "Equality" describing in actuality, a power grab.  

There is no polarity between the sexes and things are dull and colourless.  I've come to dread social interactions with locals.  Everything is safe and inoffensive.  Women are more masculine and men are more feminine.

At work, I avoid interacting with women as the risk is simply not worth it.  The hypocrisy however is astounding as women constantly fish for my attention, make eyes at me etc.  It's a trap indeed. Yet woman constantly complain out aloud about how bad men are, yet if I were to do the same about women, I wouldn't have a job.

The point of all this?  It IS actually as bad as the 'red' and 'black' code levels you describe.  I'm going to move it is that bad.

 

 

Author
Chase Amante's picture

blogster-

Sounds like your society is farther along the feminist curve, actually. That makes your pessimism on some of this stuff more understandable.

Question: do women in your society NOT respond to masculine males? As in, it isn't just a muted response / one they try to deny, but there is just no response at all and they actually get turned on by meek men? I will say... one thing I've heard from Swedish men is "Swedish women like every man who isn't Swedish." I've wondered if the reason why is Swedish men have become so burdened with expectations of meekness and conviviality that only foreign men are able to act as masculine, attractive men and not set off local women's "pariah!" alarms.

I was going to say, if it is that bad, why not move? Looks like you plan to already though.

Which, yeah. Sometimes a move is the smartest move you can make. Unfortunately.

Chase

blogster's picture

Yes, I am currently sifting through job offers elsewhere.   Not Sweden, in fact the opposite end of the planet.

I find it quite weird.  One woman I knew, who said to me once she found me 'intimidating', used to follow me around the gym.  Further, when she was drunk, she would get touchy feely (from a very reserved culture where public touching is generally frowned upon).  She recently married a nerdy, dull boring dude; probably the most boring conversation of my life was with him.  He is safe and steady but.  She seemed a bit schizophrenic.  

The women are a bit of a mix; in the work place, a lot try to shut down/shame men from acting masculine (they're usually the ones who can't get a man on looks and femininity, the careerist types); outside the workplace women are a mix of 'schizophrenic' behaviour I just described and clear discomfort, as if I'm not playing to the script I'm supposed to and are confused. 

On the other hand, I've been propositioned at work by the more feminine types, had a married woman in my office intentionally bending over in front of me and rubbing my bicep and another actively seeking my atttention by being in my proximity (it drove her nuts when I paid her no mind, but i could see her keep glancing over).

But I"m not going to risk doing anything at work given the overall climate.  Further, socially, the men are incredibly tepid, within even remotely risque banter deemed 'sexist' or 'inappropriate'.  And I don't mean saying crass 'check out the tits on that' type remarks.  But commenting directly that a woman is attractive is seen as objectifying.  They're like the hobbits from The Shire who have never been travelling around Middle Earth.

In short, I have had to sift long and hard to find people I could relate to, now my career opportunities may take me elsewhere thankfully.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Blogster-

Ah, copy that.

Yes, the women who are most susceptible to popular culture can have those sorts of schizophrenic reactions. They're attracted to you, then freaked out by that attraction. Their biology wants it, but their society has told them it's bad to want it.

I've had friends who specialized in sleeping with these sorts of schizophrenic chicks. They like the broken girls, the radical feminists, etc. Usually the guys are pretty extreme right wing themselves... I guess they see these girls as a challenge. The girls really like them and frequently get attached, while the guys themselves typically just see these girls as amusing conquests and not girlfriend material. The girls always pair up with a nice guy for something long-term, and often are dating or married to a nice guy while shagging my friends. You've got to be real careful with these girls though due to the ego issues they have. Definitely dodgy territory.

There was an incident along the lines of what you're talking about here the other day I read about, where a guy had a woman at his workplace getting more and more aggressive in her advances at work, then starting to go scorched earth talking about 'harassment' and him 'making her uncomfortable' when he rejected her. Dude had a 'no dating at work' policy and reported the gal to HR and had HR talk to a bunch of witnesses as soon as she started her revenge crusade.

I personally think it's just a lot healthier to be a little flirty at work, just to maintain a good relationship with female coworkers, and simply otherwise just avoid them as much as possible without looking weird about it, unless you're on your way out of the company (my M.O. in the past when I had office jobs was to keep low level flirtations going on with girls at work, then not actually shag them until I was leaving the company / had already left. Kept the workplace drama to a minimum).

Further, socially, the men are incredibly tepid, within even remotely risque banter deemed 'sexist' or 'inappropriate'.  And I don't mean saying crass 'check out the tits on that' type remarks.  But commenting directly that a woman is attractive is seen as objectifying.  They're like the hobbits from The Shire who have never been travelling around Middle Earth.

Could be office culture or industry culture. I've been out of the office for a little while (almost a decade now), but even back then there were some places where the men were like this, but mostly not anywhere I worked. Was still an old boys' club in the office jobs I had, with the token female hires either getting with the program and having fun with it, or getting too uncomfortable and transferring out. Much healthier environment for you if you're a man, or a woman who's comfortable with men.

So, whether you're changing countries, cities, or just jobs/industries, you might well find you have better luck elsewhere.

Chase

pradeep 's picture

Hello Chase

I’m a big fan, and I still believe your original Girls Chase textbook is one of the best references out there.
Your site first introduced me to Zan Perrion, and his focus on authenticity in game continues to guide me on my development path.

The first part of the article you wrote can be mirrored on many other men’s sites.
Conservative men lamenting the loss of male leadership fail, in my opinion, to understand the deeper issues going on.

I would like to recommend a non – game book : Foragers, farmers and Fossil Fuels – Ian Morris. At first it simply reads like any other human evolutionary textbook.
The key takeaway is far more nuanced. Except for a few very basic human values such as fairness and some others, all our evolved value systems are a direct response to our evolving socio-economic circumstances.

When we were hunter gatherers /foragers – there were virtually no hierarchies, no property, and society was fairly egalitarian, with an important caveat. The Polarity between Men and Women was maintained and was the foundation for all their social interactions.

Agriculture, having land and a need to defend that land and its output, resulted in centralized power hierarchies, patriarchy and the subsequent male breadwinner , female child-rearing and sex provider roles. ( I am oversimplifying here, it lead to many of the complexities and cruelties of the past few thousand years that are described in your article )

The Rocket, the first steam locomotive, did its maiden run in 1829 – a mere 190 years ago .

As we moved into the industrial socio-economy, with its focus on urbanization, all the old social ties, developed over the past 8-10,000 years , have been affected – this is what you are discussing in that article.

And now we are moving into a forth socio-economic order, the post-industrial world, where internet connectivity allows us to get make contact with people geographically far away. What this means for our interactions between men and women we are currently in the process of finding out…..

But for those men who lament the old patriarchal model, the only way to return to that is to turn the clock back on all the advances we have made in the past 190 years, and go back to a pure agrarian society again.

Instead, it may be possible that as we move into the 4th stage of human development, we could return to some of the egalitarian features of hunter-gatherer societies, provided that the neutered geeks running our governments and (anti)-social media don’t continue to derail it with their insistence on merging male and female identities into one miserable androgynous (but politically correct ) lump.

Egalitarianism with a clear respect and appreciation for the polarity of the male and female could make a great future society.
Without the polarity, we have what we are now experiencing – a miserable amorphous mess that nobody is happy about.
That, coupled with a trend towards greater state regulation in all aspects of our lives including our interactions with each other, is making for rather trying times…..

one thing i have noticed is that younger women tend to be more confused and sensitive about things like touch and who should take the initiative when we first meet .......older - over 30 or 35 - women tend to be more comfortable with touch and also more forgiving of our occasional 'faux pas' .

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