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Recently, a commenter asked a question about my article “12 Traits All Boring, Unsexy Nice Guys Have
in Common” – he wanted to know, specifically, why these traits, beliefs, and
behaviors are so boring to
women:
“Chase, I read your article about the 12 traits all boring, unsexy nice guys have. How do these traits in and of itself make a person boring? How does things like believing in karma or watching pundits make you boring? Is it possible that you could write about things men do that make them seem boring to women during conversation or in their actions? I don’t think you have that sort of list on this site.”
In case it’s been a while since you read that article, here’s a quick recap of boring nice guy traits:
- He doesn’t mind waiting... and waiting...
- He wants points for being ‘nice’
- He gets upset when the world doesn’t play fair
- He believes in ‘justice’, ‘karma’, or ‘just desserts’
- He consumes a LOT of media
- He thinks women are victims of men
- He is extra soft, friendly, and gentle with women
- He doesn’t have any interests or passions
- He can’t understand why women want bad boys
- He thinks women don’t REALLY like sex
- He believes he must promise relationships to get sex
- He can’t believe any girl could want him JUST for sex
Here’s a thought though; read that list. Imagine a man with those 12 traits. Would you like to have a friend like that? Or would you better prefer a friend who is the opposite of that?:
- A guy with a lot to do who doesn’t wait around for long
- A guy who, if he is nice, expects nothing back for it
- A guy who shrugs if the world doesn’t play fair, then gets back to work
- A guy who believes you only get what you get, no ‘karma’ about it
- A guy who isn’t overly plugged into popular media
- A guy who thinks women and men complement each other
- A guy who is playful and flirtatious with women
- A guy with several real interests and passions
- A guy who knows exactly why women like bad boys... he is one!
- A guy who knows women love sex (or at least they love it with him)
- A guy who doesn’t give a woman relationship until well after
their first sex
- A guy who believes women want to take advantage of him sexually
Man, that’s a couple of totally different human beings right there, isn’t it? Do you know which guy you want to be friends with? I know which guy I want to be friends with. It ain’t the nice guy.
Why do those ‘nice guy’ traits make a man so unappealing though?
Comments
Flirting on point
Hey Chase,
Thanks for the article. It reminds me a few months back I asked you how to flirt and explanation beyond your "Flirting" article. I didn't get it and honestly was upset too at your brief answer of "That's all there is to it".
But now, after chatting with girls a lot, saying things that come to my head at the time, and being around girls every day at work, I got better at flirting from time to time. It's so passively exciting inside.
I realize flirting really comes down to doing more and it'll come, just like charm.
There's not really an equation (actually, I'm becoming more intuitive now and EVEN I can't finger exactly what I'm doing now that works).
It's just that to really do well in something, we just have to stick to it and do it.
In a smart way though (Are you giving up too soon Chase article)
Thank you bro.
Re: Persuading women
I read your article on that and I notice our responses are logical responses to their objections. We aren't persuading them emotionally but rather kicking down walls instead.
Then how do we deal with emotional objections?
Her: I don't like to move there
Her: I don't like to watch movies at my house, maybe when I'm alone though
Her: I don't like nightcaps
Ex.
Me: Let's move over there, it's too hot here
Her: I like it hot (Points at heater)
Me: Ok, let's move over there, it's burning over there!
Her: I like it here
Also,
if the both of you are already isolated (at a coffee table ex), and moving elsewhere would be worse than where you are now (more crowded in the shop), do we still move and if so, where/how?
Re: Job that's helps with social/seduction too
That job I had was seasonal and was over.
Now I'm hoping to find another job that gives me cash and involves interacting with women more too. Any leads or suggestions for a regular college student?
I'm in van.
Re: Good venues
Btw when you were here, any markets do you remember? Low market, high markets?
I (and all my friends) just call it "granville strip" and none of them name names.
Time to dive into night game!
Lawliet
Jobs, 'Why' for Objections
Lawliet-
Wonderful to hear on the flirting. Seems like you’re leveling up.
If you meet a girl sitting down and moving elsewhere would be worse (e.g., there’s nowhere else you can move to to be seated at that makes good logical or emotional sense… like, you can’t say let’s move over to that booth in the sunshine, it’ll be cozier), you’ll just have to skip moving her for then. But still get other forms of investment, definitely.
As for finding jobs that put you in touch with women, here’s a big list:
Jobs that let you meet loads of women
Venues, you’re in Vancouver? I haven’t explored the Vancouver nightlife, so couldn’t tell you venues. As I recall there’s one central downtown area where most of the nightlife is located though (might be the Granville Strip you mention). I’d just recommend checking out all the different venues on different nights, feel them out, and find which suit you (and which don’t).
As for dealing with objections, don’t ask why – you just cause her to come up with a logical reason to back up her emotional response, and now you’ve cemented the emotion. Shrug, use a bored look, or just change topics if you can’t come up with a good response.
Chase
Re: asking why
For dealing with objections, do you recommend asking why?
Girl: I don't like to share drinks with strangers
Guy: Why? (Qualify objection?)
Girl: Because I don't know you / Because I don't like sharing spit
That gives more info to work on and we can transition smoothly past it:
Guy: Well let's get to it, I'm Jack / That's not even a problem, just pour it in here (cup)
Thoughts?
Lawliet
Asking what to do
Isn't it that in some manner it's still plausible to ask her what to do? If you're not used to dating or dating at that city wouldn't it be nice to ask "Maybe there's some venue you like to visit, when you meet people?" or something along these terms where you:
- Ask her what we could do...
- Are still a leader, because well, you just ask for preferences, not imposing whole "what will we do" stuff on her shoulders.
- Need more reference points what girls like doing on meeting in person/dates (especially if you travelled somewhere and know little to nothing about dating tendencies here).
Or should you strive to have things planned out in advance as much as you can?
I may not be the best person
I may not be the best person to reply to this, but in my mind you might be able to phrase it such a ways as to show her you have a plan of what you want to do, but you're entrusting her to be your guide.
e.g.
I'm new to the city but I really want to visit [insert attraction], try [local cuisine] [etc etc], perhaps you could show me a few places.
Re: Asking what to do
It's a very interesting question I asked myself the other day as well. My szenario was the following: A man who is completely city raised and who is fantastic in his job, with women, in his social environment and correspods in each aspect the here mentioned successful man. Now he is for any reason stranded in the wilderness without any tools but with a woman who is a survival specialist. She knows how to make fire, how to build a shelter, how to hunt, all that stuff to survive. She knows with out her he would die. All his knowledge is more or less useless here, he simply has to follow her lead if he want to survive. Let's go a step further. She feels superior (what she really is in this situation) and let him know this and teases him for that. I wondered if you can be manly in this situation. I think yes, you can. My solution would be: Be on as mission as it is often mentioned here as one main aspect of manlyness. In this case it would mean (at least for me) to learn from her as quickly as possible. Ignore any teasing. Focus on learning the skills. Learn how to make fire, to build a shelter and so on. Avoid the 12 here mentioned spects of beeing a nice guy and show her that you perhaps not yet have her skills but you are working on it and best would be to show that you make headway. Behaving this way you meet important characteristics of a man often mentioned here:
- Be on a mission
- avoid beeing a nice guy
- learning new skills (albeit perforced :-) )
And who knows....... perhaps you can apply your seduction skills during campfire... ;-)
You're the Man
It's more of an emotional thing for her which probably won't entail a logical concession.
I remember asking a girl where we should go eat and see her attraction fade fast.
You're the man and you have to lead.
Makes me wonder if they suggest something at the date.
I would probably think it through Hmmm...(pause a couple seconds) before saying yes or no.
You can explore options together, but never lean on her as sole guide...because she's leaning on you.
Ex. "Hey, let's look up the internet and see if any new cafe opening tonight!"
Then you both look it up together, giving opinions and work a solution together.
Lawliet
Re: Asking What to Do
LittleCorrection-
Well, the problem is this: she’s looking for an experience, and for things to feel natural and spontaneous, which means she didn’t have to think about them or plan them, they “just happened”. Any thinking or planning she has to do detracts from the experience, and if you ask her, not only does she have to think/plan, but now she knows you are too (she knows the process was you thought “Okay, we have to do something” → “Hmm, I don’t know what to do” → “Ah, okay, I’ll ask her”).
Another problem is the aimlessness of it. It may be okay if she’s not a busy person and she’s already smitten with you. If she is busy though, any form of aimless, “Let’s do something; I don’t know what, but we can just do something” business will annoy her; and if she’s not smitten, it’s the equivalent of going to a rock show where you don’t much care for the band, but you hope maybe they’re good, and instead of putting on a show the band stops a few times to ask, “Hey, what song should we play?” and then just plays whatever pop song the crowd asks for. It’s not new or exciting; just more of the same stuff you’re already familiar with and could’ve heard on the radio (e.g., she’s taking you to places she already knows that other men have taken her to in the past).
I suppose you could ask girls for opinions if your main goal is really just, you know what, I have no idea where to take girls in this town so I’ll just use my initial dates as scouting expeditions and see if these gals know any good places, and then I can use the date locations from them on future dates. And if you do everything else right, asking her for ideas may not be a death sentence. It doesn’t help you though, and probably hurts. Most girls don’t usually have good date spots to take you to, in my experience though. I did it when I was new too (how do you think I learned this stuff? ;) and it got me a whole lot of crappy go-nowhere dates that made me realize leaving the date planning up to the woman was like letting the other general pick the field of battle in an upcoming conflict. Odds are it won’t work to the advantage of whatever you’ve got planned.
So, if you can, I’d simply recommend you spend a while exploring town, finding places that seem like they’d be fun date ideas and/or that are logistically convenient, and then putting your dates together. When you’re new, you ought to be spending a good hour planning logistics for dates. Things won’t always work out, but because you’re putting thought into it and trying different things, you’ll learn much faster and quickly sort out which places and types of dates work well for you and which do not.
Chase
Critical comments
Hi Chase,
there are many good points in this article, but also a few not so good ones.
1. The set of 12 traits of nice guys and bad boys are only theoretical constructs. In real world most men are somewhere between them. I know some men who might be labeled as nice guys, but none of them has all 12 traits, f.e. all of them are passionate about something (playing piano, running marathons, politics, science/computers...) and some of them are very good at it.. I think that man who fits all 12 nice guys traits is pretty rare.
2. In other articles you distinguish between "jerks" and "real men", though here both of them are in one category "bad boys". After all, gangsters are bad boys as well as GirlsChase guys.
3. With respect to friendship with man having one of the trait sets - here you write about your personal preferences. My preferences are in some extent different - on the one hand I want my friends to have some interests and passions (like you), but it is not so important whether he believes that women want him sometimes just for sex or whether he gives women relationship before sex (there are more important things for friendship, like having something in common, mutual respect, or whether he is trustworthy and reliable). Nice guys tend to respect other people sometimes too much (that is source of some of their troubles), but bad boys sometimes tend to be arrogant (i.e. not respecting other people enough). Personally I prefer a friend who respects me - something what is the arrogant version of bad boy incapable. It is similar with reliability. My myle friends are "nice guys" and "real men", but no jerks or fake alphas.
4. Some of the "nice guy traits" are not nice guy specific. F.e. getting upset when world does not play fair. If you get upset in this situation that means that justice is an important value for you and you have strong sense of it (if you only shrug then justice is not so important for you). Well, it may be more common between nice guys. But there are many people who struggle or fight for justice (whatever is their understanding of the concept) - and it gives them edge, they are passionate about it and are in some extent aggresive in their struggle. Can you really say, that f.e. Martin Luther King, a great fighter for justice, was a boring nice guy?
5. There are some oversimplifications of "nice guy mentality". F.e. expecting extra points for being nice, while it is only minimum standard. Well, some nice guys ae guilty by that. But it does not necessarily mean that they has nothing else to offer. It means rather that they value niceness and respecting others more than other things and that it is important for their identity. Often it is that they do not like jerks/fake alphas who tend to be arrogant/overly aggressive and do not want to be like them (maybe because they have bad experiences with the dark side of arrogance and aggressivity).
6. Belief that women are victims of men - this belief might be more common in the USA and some Western countries because of stronger influence of certain versions of radical feminism. The key is to find a balance - while there is no reason to oversimplify history in the way "evil men - poor women", there is as well no reason to deny that there has been certain level of oppression (see history of violence against women, development of family legislation, punishing and shaming women for their sexuality, discouraging or punishing them if they wanted to do something that was not in their cultural-historical context considered as appropriate for a woman (it used to be education, politics, sport, leading positions...) etc.). But of course, many women supported some of those things, while many men did not.
Thanks.
Anonym
Re: Critical Comments
Anonym-
Well, if you’re too extreme, nothing is true ;)
However, to address each point:
#1: all traits – for sure, a guy would be a complete caricature if he had all 12 of the ‘nice guy traits’. I’d probably say a guy qualifies as a ‘nice guy’ if he has three or four of those traits (or more), however. He doesn’t need all 12 to qualify.
#2: believe you meant ‘jerks’ and ‘genuine men’ (I try not to use the term ‘real men’, since that has a lot of cultural / shaming baggage tied to it; people like to shame a man as ‘not a real man’ whenever he doesn’t want to do whatever they want him to do, typically). For this, yeah, just using ‘bad boys’ to differentiate from ‘nice guys’. But yeah, if you’re using a broad enough brush, ‘bad boys’ could mean Columbian cocaine kingpins or something. ‘Jerk’ and ‘genuine man’ could each mean different things from what I intend when I use them as well, as can ‘nice guy’. That’s the thing with language – it’s infinitely flexible and re-definable. Anyway, ‘gangster’ is not how I’m using the term here. I think that’s pretty clear, but if it wasn’t previously, well, there it is.
#3: cool, yeah, I feel you. I can’t stomach jerks / fake alphas either. Anyone with a tryhard vibe, basically. If a man is a genuinely nice person, I’m cool with him (I have friends who don’t care too much about getting laid / aren’t super sexual / etc.), but if he’s the kind of fairy tale nice guy I’m focused on here, that’s, again, too much tryhard for my tastes (I suspect yours as well, from the sound of it).
#4: I wouldn’t say MLK Jr. was fighting for a “fair” world. Instead, he was pushing to revise the terms people judged people on: he wanted others to judge each other on the content of their characters rather than the color of their skin. Further, he pushed his followers to be model citizens in order to change the perception of their characters (and hence, ideally, change stereotypes associated with the color of their skin, as well). He was focused not only on changing the legal and social landscape, but on improvement of himself and his followers. The kind of fairness mentality I’m discussing is the one where the person does not want to change, but wants everyone else to treat him better and give him stuff. Whereas MLK Jr. said okay, here’s how the world works, so let’s make sure we give people reasons to respect us, and then work to make sure they pay attention to those reasons and work to change the laws to take account of those reasons, the typical unattractive nice guy throws a fit because he expected the world to be one way, it isn’t that way, and it’s not fair and doesn’t make sense and other people are stupid and bad and unfair.
#5: you’re projecting your own concerns here. I said nothing about a guy not liking jerks / fake alphas. I don’t like these guys either. What I was talking about specifically was men who want POINTS for being nice. e.g., I treated you nice, and not like a fake alpha. Therefore, I expect points. And if you don’t give me points, it’s not fair and why’s the world got to be like that.
#6: I shared my thoughts on the historical oppression of women here: “Re: Oppression of Women (historical)”
Chase
Not good
I think categorizing men who are not good with women as "nice guys is going to do them more damage than good. Most of these men are just men who have been hurt badly in the past or that have low self-esteem/depression or anxiety. Telling a guy he's boring and women don't like him is like trying to get overweight person to lose weight by telling them that they are a fat slob who is unattractive to the opposite sex. Do you really think that person is going to be motivated to go exercise and diet? No. He's probably going to retreat back to his junk food and find solace in food once again. Instead, it would be better to just give him advice on how to diet and exercise, not bring him down and making him feel worse. They already have self-esteem issues to begin with.
The outline of another "Nice Guy" trait
Personally, if someone criticized one of my weak points I would either ignore it or agree that I require improvement. Is it constructive criticism or rudeness to be ignored?
Falling in the face of criticism looks like another nice guy trait; not enough confidence to take a hit, not enough motivation to fix a problem, or not even considering that they may have a problem. The type of person who wants to hear about how special they are just because they are themselves... you get the idea.
Can't Fight Honey with Honey
Sodacan-
+1 to what Seventh Sky said.
Thing with nice guys is they already have their bubble of people telling them they’re wonderful and perfect and the right girl will come along if they just wait long enough and continue to sacrifice. Just sacrifice enough, and your sacrifice will be rewarded.
Sometimes, with everyone else pouring sugar down a guy’s throat, the only way you draw him out of that sugar coma and get him to come to his senses is to slap him in the face and tell him they’re poisoning you with sweetness.
He’ll bitch and whine and moan, because the sugar sure tastes good, but in the end, the guys who don’t listen weren’t going to listen no matter what you did… yet the guys who do are going to say damn, thanks for that slap. I needed that.
Chase
Destroying embarrasing moments
Chase, how do i solve this problem?
Im into sports Chase and you know that you can't win them all and that you can't do good 100% of the time.
My thing is I do combat sports and I have had a few moments where I looked bad. The fights mostly get recorded so we can see what's wrong with our form and etc.
But you know everyone talks shit. So when people see a video of me not doing well, and not winning, how do I combat them? How do I respond when people make jokes?
What's the proper way to do that? I'm not trying to be seen as weak, even though I'm doing stuff people wish they could. I need to find a way to keep making myself look cool and get respected.
1. How can I still look like a cool tough guy if I don't do so well in a fight?
2. How do I stop feeling bad and repeating the bad fights in my head?
3. How do I combat the people who make jokes?
4. How do I win more and look good doing it every time?
Thanks
Why? How do I stop?
Chase, for some reason I get these comments. I don't get them all of the time, but I get them enough to notice it.
1. One comment I hear sometimes is that I act white. Now I don't speak super proper, nor act white at all, in fact I hear people tell me why do I act so black? So it is really confusing. I mostly hear this from white people I work with, it makes no sense to me because why would I act hood at my job? To be honest I really don't act white at all, so I feel they are stereotyping me because I don't act like a thug at my job and I'm cool with white people. Only thing I can think is maybe it's becauseI smile and joke a lot? But don't black people do this as well?
I'm asking you this because I would want to know what would make them think that I'm acting white? Like I said I hear both sides of it, I act white to one side and then the other side says that I act too black. I really don't want to be acting white or whatever. Could you tell me why they say this and how I can stop it?
2. Another thing is people underestimate me with women sometimes as well. It's similar with the above comment. People sometimes think I'm a good guy and my body count is low and whatever. Without knowing anything about me, they assume that I really don't get girls, now I'm not saying that I'm fucking every girl in the world, but I'm no hopeless goody too shoe lover boy. I want to shed this off of my as well as its annoying that they underestimate me and don't think I get it in. How do I stop that?
Thanks
Comebacks, Acting White
SZ-
Guy: “Man, Sub-Zero really sucks!”
Sub-Zero: “Are you kidding, I was on fire in that fight!” [sarcasm]
or
Sub-Zero: “Hey, I slipped on a banana peel. Rewind to that part – see, look at that. Banana peel. Dude lucked out.”
or
Sub-Zero: “I was letting him win to study his moves. Next time, he’s a dead man.”
Actually, in contrast to your “acting white” comment, comebacks like these I picked up from my black friends, who always had (hilarious) excuses for every screw up or mistake. Perhaps I can, thus, help you act a little blacker.
That said, I have no idea why those white folks are saying you act white. Could be they just haven’t been around many black men and are shocked you aren’t acting hood… or something. Maybe they think if you aren’t setting cars on fire and walking around with a #BLM sign you’re acting white. Don’t know.
Anyway, if you want it to stop, just say, “How am I acting white? How would me acting black look different from this?”
At that point, they will probably think you’re getting snippy / sensitive about their racial comment, and back off because you are now acting too black for them. Most black folks are unafraid to be a little confrontational; I suspect that’s the disconnect here, since it sounds like you aren’t the best at confrontation.
Folks thinking you’re ineffective with women, just roll your eyes at it. Bravado doesn’t impress in that department, but verbal humility doesn’t work either. People will form their opinions based on your nonverbals and fundamentals. If you want people to think you get laid more, improve these.
Street game, we have dozens of articles on opening on this site; check them out:
Opening
Try out variations as you like, but the delivery’s the important part – not the words.
Clubs seem to get harder past 40, unless you’re clearly in “exceptional male” territory. At which point you can go much longer – I know men in their 60s who have no problem picking up attractive twenty-somethings in nightclubs in North America. But they’re clearly trim, youthful, attractive men – they’re exceptional, at an age when most men are portly, tired, beaten-down, and poorly dressed. It depends on you.
Chase
Mouthpiece
Chase, how do I develop a mouth piece? I'm at the point where I see you really can't get girls unless you can spit game. You can be fly and have money, but many people can have that as well. I am normally the quiet reserved type, but I have gotten better.
I want to have a smooth mouth piece I want to spit game because it's hard to pull women In with just your looks. I want to learn how to be able to talk to females on the fly and be good with it. Like if someone ask me to get girls off the street, is saying " where yell going/heading?", is that good game? What would you say to chicks in the street?
Now mind you I'm a black dude so I have to be a Lil hood with it especially with these black girls.
Also, what is too old to be picking up at bars and clubs? I've been going for a few years, but no luck besides phone numbers, sad to say I haven't gotten a date from these. I want to change that. What can I do ?
Thanks
Nice Guys vs Bad Boys
"Why don't women like us Nice Guy but love the Bad Boys."
Translation:
"Why don't high SMV women like us low SMV men but love the high SMV men?"
Re: Nice Guys vs Bad Boys
Gil-
Good translation.
Chase
Please change all word 'women
Please change all word 'women' to 'girls'. Thanks.
Misunderstanding
There is a difference between a nice guy and a whimp. 1) what wrong with waiting. I'd rather do something good than a fast bull$hit.
2) I would't give a fu[k.... ever.
3) EVERYONE DOES, at least most of the people I have encounter. Myself, there is no point in dwelling whatever you're a nice guy or a bad boy, complaining won't change what has happend and what is happening.
4) "justice" eh... are you perhaps naturally born stupid or does aging maje you stupid over time, no offense. "Nice guys belive in justice", noting wrong to do so I belive, it's better to have a false belive than resorting to violence and breaking your mind. Of course if you want the violance root, then go with it but be awarr of the consequences, of cours you can also just be a realistic(myself) and be done with it.
5) idk, and couldn't care less.
6) white knight, feminist, not nice guy.
7)feminist not nice guy.
EXTRA: femminists can be both nice guys and bad boys.
8) if the hobby is boring dosen't mean it's non existent. And btw not what they see as a hobby you may think it's just hard work, but that's not limited to nice guys only.
9) duh, 90% of world population wont be able to understand each other.... unles they try to talk and not trying to read each other minds.
10) for the fu€k sake, not every nice guy is a fu€king feminist. Again some bad boys are feminist too.
11) sort of true.
12)completely true.
All these years i've considered myself a nice guy but know I don't know anymore. I'm certainly not a bad boy but not a nice guy either. I'll late you decide.
1) can I protect a women? Yes I goddamn can and i'm 99'98% sure that 99% of man can.
2) my mission is to do all my needs and make myself happy and entertained every single day. And for that of course I work but my life is not my work, I work just to fulfill my needs.
3) I am not respect hungry, I don't give a fu€k about what others think if me, their opinion wont affect nor change my way of life, i'm true to myself. They can hate me, be disgusted by my hobbies, ostracize me or even insult me, i'll just laugh it off and inslt them back with more cruelty and if they physically harm me , i'll just have to break their bones, desfigurate their face and huniliate them and then laugh if they kill themselves the next day.
4) I usually try to avoid that, too much of a pain.
5) same as 2).
6) My childhood doesnt allow me.
7) I'm goddamn realistic I dont underestimate or overestimate myself.
8)good at supporting mentally weak people, good in managing economy.
Extra: 9) I have "godly" patience.
10) lazy to do physically labor.
11)always thinking
12)lazy to study material I dont use in real life. (Most of the times)
13)I tell people the true even if it hurts them.
So tell me what kind of guy am I?
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