content="It sucks to be a male virgin in our society. But here’s the $10,000 question: should you tell her you’re a virgin, or not? (Answer: probably not).">
It sucks to be a male virgin in our society. But here’s the $10,000 question: should you tell her you’re a virgin, or not? (Answer: probably not).
A reader writes in to ask whether to discuss your virginity with a girl you like:
“Hello,
Been a reader of this site for many years and, suffice to say, this site has really changed my life. I’ve gained confidence, I have developed a strong social network of friends, but, ironically, I have still never slept with a girl or been in a single relationship. I’m still young (20; I started reading when I was 15 or 16), I know, but the concept of male virginity scares me. I was wondering if you guys could touch on the subject, mainly:
(1) Does male virginity matter to woman?
(1a) Regardless of the answer, how does one carry oneself, how does one sell oneself?
(2) If you could talk about male virginity in general, and what it means for us, as men, today.
(2a) This could be, interestingly enough, tied in to modern gender roles, i.e., what it means to be a man in today’s Western society.
Also, just a little background: I’m currently serving in the military (in Israel), and thus it has become very hard to meet new women, and I, and the women I meet, are often swamped for time.
Was hoping you could also do a short piece on meeting women when you serve in the armed forces?
Thanks in advance,
Jonathan”
This is a question we get often enough on Girls Chase.
So, let’s answer it.
Comments
Comment from male virgin, 28.
Greetings, I'm a White male that's Hispanic looking from Chicago. The largest Hispanic gang in Chicago is Latin Kings, and I happened to have lived in a Latin King neighborhood for 1 year.
At the end, I hand out pamphlets against the Latin Kings gang, now predominantly to Latin Queens. Near the middle end of the pamphlet, I state I've never had a girlfriend before and am a virgin.
The 1st half of the pamphlet talks about some of the crimes you see them do on the local news. Then the 2nd half of the pamphlet summarizes my 1 year living with them and the 2 times I was beat up by them. The 2nd time I was beat up by them, they thought I was a boy child molester and gay pedophile, from now you know why.
Also mentioned in the pamphlet was a much older Latin King, age 60, but was from a different neighborhood and different faction. At the end, he sided with me. Near the end of the pamphlet, I was at his deathbed, when he was about to die.
I call it a cute story, as well as a thriller.
Me personally, I'm never ashamed to state I'm a virgin and never had a girlfriend before. Women are capable of appreciating it when you have balls to admit it. ;) Not all men have that kind of confidence.
22 year old (almost 23) virgin
Thanks for this. What bothers me is not that i'm a virgin, i really don't care about cultural validation. The problem to me is that i'm getting older and older and as you mentioned in the article, it gets harder to get a partner, if you're inexperienced. When i read the part concerning this subject, fear consumed me.
Playing Catch-Up
Rodrigo-
Well, if you’re worried about it, then start working on it!
We have guys on the forum who didn’t have sex until their late 20s… Pretty sure one guy on there lost his virginity at 30. You’ve got a ways to go still before you’re in Andy Stitzer territory.
You’re at somewhat of a disadvantage at the outset, because you have to play catch-up. But you’ll find out fast that most guys don’t progress at all once they figure out how to get laid on occasion. They’re still as clueless about girls after 5 girlfriends and 5 one-night stands at age 28 as they were at 2 girlfriends and 1 one-night stand at age 20.
So, you’ve got a bigger hump to overcome at the start, but once you’re over it it’s a pretty straight shot into the top 5% or more of daters if you continue to work at it. Most guys quit improving as soon as they can get sometimes-sex.
Chase
Porn and presence
Chase, i really apprecciate your reply. In fact, if it wasn't for this message i think i'd give up of my objective today: 2 approaches. Thanks for that.
I have some obstacles on my way, but i'm not allowing them to dismotivate me, like: logistics ( i live with family), and the worst: not much money to pay for transport (so i can go to more crowded places) and dates.
Now this one is kind of a bummer: around here, almost no foot traffic :( Sometimes i go to the gym, and i come around no woman... that really sucks.
Changing subject briefly: i lived secluded, watched and masturbated to porn compulsively from 13 to 19 years old, and my social interactions with women in this period were almost non existent. It's well known today that porn completely changes your brain chemistry, specially at such young age. I've been doing some small ''nofap'' streaks these past weeks and yesterday i just watched porn and masturbated after 8 days (been doin' 7-10 days streak, i did over 30 days once). And after getting used to how i start feeling when i'm about 7-8 days in, i can't help but notice the contrast of the amount of attention and looks that i get from women when i'm about 8-10 days into nofap compared without nofap.
I could say that i'm a completely different person after about a week into nofap, the main changes are:
-i feel present in the moment; until i reach the end of a week of no porn and masturbation, i feel like my mind is scattered - i can't think straight; my peripheral vision is almost non existent, probably because i can't connect to what's happening around me.
-i can feel the smell and taste of things i couldn't before (pretty scary to think about it).
-my performance on weightlifting skyrockets (alongside my muscles).
-i can absorb much more information while studying.
-get aroused just by skin to skin contact with a girl
-and much more...
-much better reception/attraction from women and much less jitters from them.
Now, i'm really curious about this last point: could it be because of mirror neurons? Because i feel like my mind is numb, neutral during this phase, but it could also probably be full of negative subconscious stuff related to my porn usage during my depression/teen years.
There was one of the very few times that i was on a ~30 day streak and a girl even approached me at class! She asked if i didn't want to come to study with her on another town (LOL, i didn't even know her).
Thanks and sorry for the wall of text. Hope you can give some of your insights one of these days :)
Cheers
Thanks for the article Chase
The first girl I ever kissed was the sister of a friend's girlfriend, at a party. I was 18.
I kinda just talked with her a lot about personal stuff, at first I didn't thought she was interested in me first but she was cute and she opened up to me quite quickly. I had no clue that what I did was deep diving or knew anything about game, I was really clueless. I also touched her quite a bit, which seemed natural to me, but one of my friends that was close even made a point about it, which made me feel a bit shy. All of sudden she went to the bathroom and my friend said she wanted to kiss me, I was like, I have no idea of what to do, I didn't said anything and just chilled against a wall with the most badass pose I could think of. She walked in my direction and I knew what was going to happen. I told her: "Really?", like, I should be the one doing this, and she said "Really". We started kissing and somebody put my hand of her ass, it was really crazy drunk shit. After a while she got kinda weird and she said she was not feeling ok. She started vomiting and everything, I tried to help her, but I was scared but I wasn't used to even drink myself.
After that I discovered GirlsChase and game and all that but I'm still a virgin more then a year trying to improve with girls. Truth is, I was always quite shy, I fought against it all my life but still it bugs me a bit. I can do really well at night with girls with some liquid confidence but I can't take them home since I live with my parents and my home is far away from any cool place anyway. Also I get a lot of approach invitations at day from girls on bus and at uni but day game scares the crap out of me. A girl came talk to me in the bus and I managed to screw things up because I was just so nervous and stuff (I was trying to hide it but in the end I interrupted her quite a few times and acted a bit like an asshole, I tried to get her number but she just said: "Well, I don't think we're ever going out..."). I felt really bad for being rejected on bus, even though I totally deserved it, but then I noticed nobody gave a fuck, even people who could have listened to the whole thing showed any interest. Still I feel paralised and can't approach at all.
There's also the thing that many cute girls in bus seem to be really young, I know that some of them are still schoolgirls and I don't wanna hit on a 14 year old ever again (I almost kissed one at my sister's prom, she and her friends were almost 18 and I was 19 at the time, the girl was in their group, I figured she would have that age too). I also wanna lose my virginity and I think it will be really hard to get it with young inexperienced girls when I don't even have good logistics myself...
I really need to learn how to be proactive and make shit happen. The last time I went out with my friends the cutest chick gave me some intense eyefucking, she looked at me, stared and looked down like 3 times in a row, she came near and stood there waiting, and I knew what to do, how to do it but still I couldn't fucking get out of my head to do it. She obviously dissappeared and I never saw her again, again, I'm flipping out.
I need some serious help.
No Logistics, Nervous
Beck-
If you're doing well at night but can't take girls home, I recommend you explore your other options to clear that hurdle:
Just start asking girls to go to their places or inviting them to leave the venue with you and force yourself to solve logistics. Put yourself in that situation enough times and you will figure it out. Or be more proactive and sit down and map out logistical solutions and draw up contingencies in case your first options don't work out.
Don't worry about getting nervous with girls. That happens. Expect to blow it with girls early on. Blow it a few times (less than you might think) and then it passes. A man's filled with fear the first time he steps foot onto a sporting arena or a field of battle, but years later you see him again and he's a veteran, smiling at the nervous new guys. Just keep going into the arena or wading out into the fray, and you'll become that veteran in time.
Chase
help
Chase, I feel like I'm not good enough to get women. Even if I find out they like me I dont do anything because I feel like I'm boring and have nothing to offer, and that if I were to get with a woman, she will get bored with me and I'll feel even worse. As a result of this, I just stay home most of the time and not approach, and when I do go out, i try to avoid looking at women because I see no point.
Boring & Nothing to Offer
Marlon-
I suggest two things:
Go meet girls anyway and be boring. You may be surprised to find out that some girls actually do not find you nearly as boring as you think you are. And as you accrue more experience with women, you'll have more adventurous and more experiences to relate, that make you a more interesting man. You'll also meet women who pull you along into all kinds of excursions you'd never go on on your own.
Start developing the qualities in yourself you think a woman would appreciate you having. Whether that be a sense of humor, exciting hobbies, noteworthy talents, ambition, passion, etc. What you will discover too is that once you begin to build these things, they have positive effects on you far outside the realm of girls.
If you can only remember one thing, here it is: you don't get to quit being boring until you quit staying home.
Chase
Programming
Hello Chase, I read your advice on learning a monetizable skill, and have started studying computer programming. There are a few questions I have:
(1) Do you need to learn Ruby before doing Ruby on Rails? I've been doing Ruby for about 2 months now but idk if I should just skip to Rails to save time.
(2) Is it really possible to live off freelance programming, or is it basically like a part-time job?
(3) I'm about to graduate college with a Psychology degree and I sort of regret going into it because a bachelor's is pretty useless...is it possible to land a good paying programming job without a degree? And do you know about how long it will take for me to land such a job?
Thank you for your time.
Ruby / Programming
Papichulo-
Very glad to hear it! Being able to program in an in-demand language is going to give you a lot of financial freedom.
I'm not a programmer myself, so all I can do is relay what I hear from others, but my understanding is you only need a basic understanding of Ruby before you're ready to move onto Ruby on Rails. There's a nice little guide here aimed at helping you ease into the Ruby on Rails pool:
You can absolutely live off of freelance programming, but once you've got some experience under your belt you'll be fielding full-time offers that are tough to turn down. Seems like most guys eventually transition from freelance to full-time work because the offers are too hard to refuse. Here're a few good threads on building an income from freelance programming:
As for getting a good paying job in programming without a degree, sure. What most hiring managers want is someone who knows how to code rather than someone with the right piece of paper. That said, all the biggest companies (Facebook, Microsoft, Google, etc.) prefer folks with degrees in their field. I don't think that'd be too big a barrier if you wanted to work at one of them and you built a solid enough career in the niche, though, at least as I understand their hiring practices.
Chase
By the way, it's good to tell
By the way, it's good to tell a girl you're a virgin. It's to test them. Women constantly test men, and so no problem doing it the other way around. Amirite? ;)
Telling Her
Neal-
If you're doing it from a place of strength and you legitimately just want to bust her stones and see how she reacts, I don't see a problem with it.
For the guys who feel insecure about it, I recommend you don't tell her. This doesn't seem to be your problem, so I think you're fine ;)
Chase
nervous eye contact
What does a girl think when you make eye contact and get nervous (e.g. look at away quickly). Sometimes I look at girls and this happens and she laughs. Is she thinking, "Aww, what a pathetic little chode...?"
Re: Nervous Eye Contact
Poosy-
If you follow it up with a good approach / good conversation, it's just another bit of flirting.
If you don't, and you just act bashful, then it depends on the girl. Some kinds of girls, particularly the more aggressive types, can be excited by this kind of behavior in men, since they look for submissive, inexperienced men and enjoy men like that. Other girls find it a turnoff, because they need a guy who'll take the reins and this makes it clear to them that isn't you.
So, might help you, might hurt you - depends what you do after, and depends what kind of girl she is.
Chase
Chase
Chase, after reading your comment reply on the "when does no mean no" article, about that one guys who's life is ruined by that drunk girl has me paranoid as shit.
Reading that shit makes me not want to even do this anymore, it's like one wrong move and you life is over. Shit is crazy.
And I'm black, so that makes it 100x worse.
I know you'll say it is rare, but shit is very worrisome, I read your article on never having false accusations, but reading that comment made me worry a lot.
1. Do I have to do anything differently since I'm black? do I have to be nicer at letting girls down?
2. How do so many people sleep with a lot of women and stay free from it?
3. If we sleep with multiple girls back to back, and we're trying to get as many lays as we can, how do we cut them off right after and not deal with the craziness ?
I remember something you said about that you should stop sleeping with a girl after 2 times? maybe you said you so, I don't remember, but how many times should we sleep with girls and how should we let them off without dealing with the craziness?
Thanks
FRAs: Prevention
SZ-
Race statistics on rape accusations are hard to come by. Looks like as of 1997, among convicted U.S. rapists, 52.2% were white, 43.7% were black, and 4.1% were some other race. But that doesn't tell us anything about false rape accusations.
If anything, I'd think being black might protect you, since black guys are "more dangerous" and she only wants to file a false rape accusation if she thinks there's no risk to her. One of the major trends I've seen among FRAs is the guy acts nice toward the girl, backs off, doesn't go all the way, etc. The assumption seems to be that he's a nice guy, and he won't do anything if she tries to wreck his life. My suspicion is you'd be somewhat less likely to think you'll sit back and just take it if you're black. But without statistics, I could be way off base.
As for how guys sleep with girls and not get hit with FRAs, some of it is just luck of the draw, but a lot of it is being smart. See this article for prevention:
As for setting expectations properly, see these:
If you set expectations properly, girls do not get crazy. They only get crazy when you led them on prior to sex or if they're severely personality disordered.
In the case of the latter, see these articles:
Chase
Honestly it is a sign of
Honestly it is a sign of weakness. If your already engaging in talking with her and do this she is going to see your nervous which is a turn off for them. Looking away every now and then is needed or it becomes weird. Its hard to remember when your caught up in the moment but if you can you should centre yourself take a concious breath raise your chin and imagine your eyes are sexual magnets that are drawing her into your world through your magical desire. This should help.
Constantly Analyzing
Hey Chase ,
I'm fairly early in the journey and I'm still just working on my fundamentals however do you think it's better to approach while working on your fundamentals or to do one thing at a time . My fundamentals aren't bad but I'm a perfectionist and I like everything done to the letter . I only ask because I get AIs every now and then and ignore them telling myself I miss out on these ones now to win even greater in the future when I'm done with my fundamentals
Another thing , I've never really fit into the whole society thing and I didn't care but these day I find myself putting effort to be within the bounds of socially acceptable which is good . The problem is I'm constantly analyzing every social situation I find myself in , in terms of value , investment , dominance etc. This opposes some of the other writers here who have written about 'staying in the moment ' I find it impossible to stay in the moment . I'm constantly analyzing everything when present and even after the fact . Is this just part of the process and then doing things the right way just becomes second nature after a while ?
What are your thoughts on a high value man whose awareness radius is really small but begins to stare down his target mate with intent ( not just darting eyes around ) before making approach ?
Thanks for all the good stuff chase
Analysis
Jason-
Yes, approach now! The feedback you get from girls is vital to how you calibrate fundamentals. There’s only so much you can tweak these on your own. After a certain point, you need to see how women respond to you to progress.
There was a guy who started to learn dating at the same time I did in the mid-2000s. We were on the same message board back in late 2005 – I think he joined a few months before me. This guy was obsessed with taking it one step at a time, and he would not progress until the next step until he’d perfected a prior one. He spent years working on his openers (and not getting laid in the process). Somehow he convinced himself that this was the only way that would work and ignored all the guys telling him the opener doesn’t even matter, start trying to have full interactions with girls.
On analysis, here’s what I recommend: do your best to stay in the moment during an outing, and go back and analyze it at the end. When you feel the temptation to analyze in the middle of a conversation or what have you, force yourself to focus on what the girl is saying and shut out the analysis.
It’s GOOD to analyze, but if you do it while you’re in the interaction it’s like running with a ball-and-chain clasped around your ankle. Much, much harder than it otherwise needs to be.
That said, there may be some level of analysis in-the-moment you can’t fully get around when you’re new. Depending on your personality, you’ll either run on full mechanical analysis or full unthinking adrenaline. Then, as you become more experienced, your thinking should start to balance out; mechanics become more in-the-moment, and intuitives become more aware of the moving pieces. If you notice you are not becoming more in-the-moment as you gain experience, I suggest you begin to take active steps to get there, though.
A long stare before approach can work very well if she’s interested in you. You do need to come in in a masculine way to make it work, though; otherwise, she’ll feel shortchanged!
Chase
Late bloomers etc.
Hi Chase,
an interesting article. I have some questions and suggestions:
1) Can you write an article focused on dealing with difficulties of being a late-bloomer (if you are 20+, 30+ or older virgin)?
2) I noticed one interesting thing that you do not pay much attention to what is starting position of men trying to learn how to pick up girls. Like with any other activity, everyone can learn a lot, but everyone has different starting position. And everyone start in a little different environment. Everyone has at the beginning certain set of advantages and disadvantages with respect to any goal he wants to achieve. It works for dating girls, education, or learning any skill. Often it is somehow balanced, but some people have much more advantages and others much more disadvantages (none of this is the choice or fault of the former or the latter).
Even a few disadvantages like combination of high level of sexual shame, low testosterone level (low sex drive and aggressivity), fearful-avoidant attachment style (difficulty in creating and maintaining intimate relationships) and strong introversion (low drive to socialize, less energy, less opportunities to meet new people and develop social skills...) can cause significant disadvantage i comparison with those who do not have this traits, because it creates huge contradiction between this person and what is necessary to be successful in picking up women. And while it is possible to improve those things during a time at least in some extent (though not everything fully), it is obviously not this persons choice or fault that he has to deal with this obstacles, which are not really the easy ones (especially combined together).
I believe that you do not write much about it because you want to motivate people and because people sometimes make excuses about real or imaginary disadvantages which are mostly possible to overcome. But still it is obvious that people have very different starting position in dating as well as in other activities and that some people really have much more difficult position than others (though it is not always case of those who say it).
3) A lot of men are clueless and do not really understand women and their struggles in dating life. In your experience, can you say that women understand men better, that women realize what are male troubles in dating? Or in what extent?
F.e. That a lot of men are really clueless? Or how much approach anxiety men have? That men suffer from sexual shame as well as women? That for most men it is really difficult to understand female subcommunication and signals of attraction? That men often find female behavior really confusing and it does not make any sense to them?
I know that it depends on level of experience, but since women are generally more socially attuned and have more empathy than men I believe they probably understand men better than vice versa.
4) I am from Czech republic. Have you ever been there? Do you have some experiences with Czech women? Do you have some advice related to picking up and dating Czech women?
Thank you very much.
Anonym
Re: Late Bloomers Etc.
Anonym-
Sure, I’ve noted the late bloomer topic down in our topics list!
On where you’re starting out at, I gear my “beginner” articles at someone in a similar position to where I was: no friends, no success with girls, no idea how to even hold a basic conversation, lots of depression / victim mentality. Examples of articles like this:
If a guy’s better off than I was, he’s at an advantage. It’s possible he could be worse off than I was – say, for instance, if he has Asperger’s and doesn’t have any social intuition, plus also has no friends, plus no girl success history, plus no conversation skills, plus depression / victim mentality. Or if he’s a super nice guy, plus no friends, plus no girl success history, plus no conversation skills, plus depression / victim mentality. But the prescription is the same: go do the exercises and follow the steps to do better with people and girls, using one of these (I have seen plenty of guys in both of those worse off camps succeed):
Re: your question #3, both sexes are equally clueless about what the other sex goes through. Guys think girls are fine and have abundant choice, and girls think guys are fine and have abundant choice. People only see their own struggles. Women do have better empathy than men, but not so much that they truly get men at a deep level unless they’ve spent lots of time studying men (and most girls haven’t).
Re: Czech, just Prage Vacláv. Haven’t actually gotten out and explored the country. I like Eastern Europe though. I’ve met a few Czech girls but not enough to notice any patterns that’d differentiate them from other nationalities. If you’re a beginner though, I would encourage you to focus on learning the basics and getting some initial success first, and figuring out the nuances of different kinds of girls later. A lot of beginners try to do this in reverse (“I’ve got to understand all the differences first, and then I’ll start working on getting somewhere”) but that paralyzes you. You’ll focus on the wrong things, like Czech girls all like this tiny nuance that ends up being unimportant for sleeping with them. The best way to figure out the differences is to go out, meet girls, take them on dates, test out different stuff, sleep with them, and see how they differ.
Chase
Implying Preselection and Experience while still a virgin
I am a virgin still at 24(about to turn 25). The biggest hindrances to me successfully escalating to sex are logistics(I still live at home with my parents; no further explanation needed), and that I have very little knowledge of any good day-game venues to try in my area. But other than that, I'm pretty consistent at maintaining a fun and challenging attitude in my conversations with women, and I maintain a good physical appearance with my physique(I'm an former college wrestler, regularly lifting weights, with a well-maintained full beard). However, when I am able to get some interactions with women, I make sure to give off a way about myself that says I am a man who gets laid regularly. At the call center where I work at, I walk and talk and flirt with the girls that I work with in a way that implies I'm an experienced lover. And I have noticed that there and at venues and instances where I am talking to girls and maintain an aura of a sexually experienced man, women are much warmer in talking to me and give me a lot more looks of sexual interest than in moments where I had an aura of a rejected virgin. So, yes, I can personally attest to the premise that acting as though you are already a long-time Casanova (even when it might not be the case yet) helps you out more when it comes to interactions with women than acting as though no woman has ever wanted to be with you to make the psalm of the bedstead. To quote Roissy of the Heartiste blog, "You are a ladies’ man. Start acting like it, and you will in fact become the ladies’ man ladies love." Of course, I would be happy to hear any insights about implying sexual experience and preselection(when it's not yet the case) that Chase and anyone else may have.
Preselection/Experience as a Virgin
Mitchell-
I’d suggest just a simple focus on fundamentals and frame control. When you’re good in these two departments, you get implicit preselection. Fundamentals say “I’m confident around you”, and frame control says “I expect you will bend my way.” If you’re confident around her that implies you get other girls like her. And if you expect her to bend your way, she expects you make other girls bend your way. Which will lead her to expect you then HAVE your way with those girls.
Touch and sexual flirtation are other big ones. One of the major “markers” of virgins is they tend to be stiff around girls. If they make moves, the moves are often stiff and self-conscious. And they fear being sexual. So if you get yourself comfortable touching girls in close, sexy ways, and talking to them with sexy voice tones, sexual eye contact, and about sexy things, you’ll come across more as a man experienced with sex than with one who isn’t too experienced yet.
There are various little gambits you can use to try and build preselection with words. e.g., tell a story about a “friend” and say “she” or “her” when talking about her. This stuff always made me feel self-conscious when I was inexperienced though, like I was faking experience and maybe she’d figure it out. Which would take my focus off the girl and into my head. So I always found it better to just worry about tight fundamentals and frame control. Then you’re not trying to trick anybody; you’re just being a solid, attractive, confident man.
But your mileage may vary – could be sprinkling in references to ambiguous “friends” of the female sex, or talking about a wild trip you took with a group of university friends and alluding to some of them being female, then leaving her to fill in some of the blanks works for you. If so, you can certainly use those techniques!
Chase
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