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While my normal recommendations are that guys stay far out of boyfriend-territory and focus on sealing the deal with girls they like on the first date, the truth is sometimes you're going to move too slow by accident, or not feel confident enough moving quickly with a girl, and you'll wind up as a boyfriend candidate after all.
So what do you do then, when she's not seeing you as a lover, and you can't move fast?
Just give up?
Or do you play the game the way she wants you to play it... but with your own twist?
I'm going to introduce you to the concept of date compression in today's article - making dates count for more than a single date, and having a full boyfriend-candidacy dating process in a short amount of time, rather than the protracted courtship these frequently turn out to be.
In the end, you'll be able to take girls who view you as a boyfriend candidate as lovers and as girlfriends much more quickly and reliably than the men who stretch things out - and often lose the girls they like after plowing time and money into trying to get them.
Let's talk about speeding up the entire dating process without skipping steps.
Comments
Needy?
Even though you said be cool about how you set things up... how do you do that without coming across as needy, not busy etc. (low value)
Also you have mentioned in the past, when saying farewell at the end of a first date, you don't say "I want to see you again" etc. to build intrigue. Is it different here?
Also what do you think about dropping subtle hints seen I'm going overseas soon. e.g. "yeah I'm off soon so I just want to relax, enjoy and have fun" while on a date to speed things up.
I think it's a good tip. Keep up the awesome posts!!
Cheers
Not Coming Across Needy
Prince-
A large part of that is going to be your presence when you first meet her. If you seem like a guy who might be needy, she may well interpret texts along those lines from you in a needy way. But if your presence is down, your fundamentals are bolted tight, and her impression on meeting you is, "Whoa," this doesn't come across needy at all - in fact, it's exciting that such a sexual, powerful man is so juiced on moving fast with her.
I would not say, "I want to see you again," or give her any indication like that during the date here either. What you're going for on dates is emulation of the passionate lover that women fantasize about - he is impulsive, warm, and he never plans ahead. No planning ahead on your dates... be the man who lives from one moment to the next.
If you're going overseas, don't mention it until she asks. If she asks what you're doing with your life, just mention in passing that you're preparing to head overseas. If she wants more details about this, she'll ask; different girls will react in different ways (e.g., if she sees you as a boyfriend, she'll get depressed, then either write you off, or shift you into the lover category; if she already sees you as a lover (or, conversely, as a platonic friend) she likely won't flinch).
Chase
Time & Age
Hey Chase, great article.
I understand how useful date compression can be for when she views you as a potential boyfriend, but I am a little unclear on how much time I should be putting into dates. I saw you mentioned about three hours, in the article. Is that not too long and doesn't that amount of time spent on a date talking to a girl contribute towards the whole boyfriend dilema? Also I don't know what I could possibly talk about for three hours in one go lol.
Another thing that I am interested in is age and the role it plays in dating. I read on the forum somewhere that you believe the prime age for a mans attractivness to be between the ages of 32-45, which I totally agree with. However during those ages does it become harder to date younger girls, say 20-25? I guess the fact that your at an age where your skill level & overal attractivness is so high that your age doesn't really cross the girls mind? I mean I am 24 now and sometimes I worry, ohh in x years I wont be able to date girls who are x age, it really annoys me. How big of an obstacle would an age different of like 10+ be to girls? Does it even matter?
I got no plans to settle before 45 but I don't want to be 45 and have to date 35+yr olds. (not that their aren't hot girls who have looked after themselves at that age)
I think i'll always prefer younger girls, mainly for their energy to be honest and to me if seems perfect for an older man to be dating/in a relationship with a younger more energetic girl who can be looked after better by the older man and learn from the man. It makes sence, but society seems to disagree, the main complaint is that the two wont be able to relate? Which surely is just a personal thing, not much related to ages?... I guess another one of societys twisted ways of thinking? Interesting though.
Take it easy
Re: Time & Age
Senna-
You'll want to vary the time you put into a date based on what you want the girl's expectations of you to be, and also on what date it is and what you're doing on that date. e.g., if you spend three hours just sitting in one place talking, that's too much; however, if you have dinner at one place for an hour and a half, and then a slow dessert at another place for another hour, that's fine. You will set "boyfriend"-type expectations - usually - but if she already sees you as a boyfriend, that point is moot.
Regarding age - there are some girls who view older men as out of the question, but they seem to be something of a minority, and mostly relegated to the girls with the lowest "independent" streaks who are also heavy into group activities; that is to say, the ones who are very dependent on their groups for approval, and believe (rightly or wrongly) that their groups will judge them unfavorably for dating an older man. When a woman isn't of this personality type and in this life situation, she'll usually be a lot more open to dating men somewhat or even significantly older than her. In fact, we have a couple of guys on the forum right now in their 40s who routinely sleep with attractive women in their 20s, and some of the in-field students I've had who had the best success early on were men in their early 40s dating women in their mid-20s.
It does seem to be somewhat more difficult for older men to date high school girls / college girls, largely due to that "dependence on the group and fear of what the group will think" mentality. Women in their late teens / early 20s who don't go to college - whether that's because they're too poor, or they're athletes / Olympians, own their own business, are artists, etc., invariably lack these same reservations.
On "society disagreeing," it's often better to think of "social norms" as the rules that society imposes on the worker bees to keep them in line and doing whatever it is it needs them do to ensure social cohesion. Your objective is to ascend above the rabble and be a man who steers his own course and brings others along with him; for men like this, and the women they select (assuming those women are equally exceptional), the rules do not apply quite the same way. e.g., when Michael Douglas married Catherine Zeta-Jones, I don't recall there being much of an uproar over the 25-year age gap, so much as a little, "Oh! That's surprising. But isn't it sweet!" Because Douglas is seen as a strong man who knows what he's doing with his life, and because Zeta-Jones is seen as an accomplished individual in her own right and not some brainless bimbo, his choices and her choices are not subject to the same kind of social castigation as, say, a random 45 year old office worker type and a 20 year old girl with no notable achievements or distinguishing characteristics to her name aside from youth and beauty who decide to get hitched, where all anyone can say is, "Why?!"
Chase
And what if she wants you as
And what if she wants you as a boyfriend, but you don't want her like that?
I have a girl that when talking about relationships said like 3 times how she wouldn't want to sleep with someone on the first date.
If I break that resistance this way, and then just be like "let's keep it casual". That would probably hurt her feelings right?
How would be the more tactful way of not hurting her?
What She Wants vs. What You Want
Anon-
When I get girls talking about relationships / boyfriends a LOT with me and it's clear that they're trying to set the tone with me, I'll first play it off and hint in no uncertain terms that I'm certainly not the type they want that with, and that I'm not available for that. If they don't get it, or are really stubbornly trying to shoehorn me into it still, I usually take that as a sign of desperation (women who are desperate for a relationship will try to shove even the most unsuitable men for this role into it), and simply not see her again. Desperate women make for uncomfortable partners in any capacity you can get them to serve in.
If however you break the resistance properly - say she says, "I wouldn't want to sleep with someone on the first date," and you say, "Too bad for those poor schmucks who date you," and then she laughs and you sleep together - she's not likely to get hurt because she's accepting your frame first: "Oh, right - this isn't a date. He isn't boyfriend material. He's just a quick fling."
Chase
Addendum
One addendum that I would like to add to this is that you absolutely should still attempt to invite the girl home on the first date.
She needs to know that you are man enough to at least attempt to push things forward. If for any reason she suspects that this will just be another "chain of boring dates" for her, then she won't waste her time and move onto someone else. Besides, if you don't invite her home on the first date, then you won't know if you could have bedded her then and there! Inviting her home will also give you a good idea of where you stand with her -- did she place you in the 'lover' category or the 'boyfriend' category? Once you find out, you can run your next few dates accordingly.
However, I do agree with not inviting her home on the second date if you invited her home on the first and she declined (reluctantly). This will build intrigue and make her curious enough to go on the third (and possibly fourth) dates. Then from there, make sure to make your move. ;)
Cheers,
Franco
Re: Addendum
I would add an "It depends" onto this addendum - essentially being "It depends on how involved / complicated that first date is." Inviting a girl home and getting turned down injects a great deal of variability / reduces consistency; some girls will respond to it by being excited ("Ooh, good, he's not going to be another wet noodle!") while other girls respond to it by being disappointed ("Oh... he invited me home, then gave up as soon as I gave some resistance - he's not who I thought," or, "Oh... I thought he was a gentleman, but clearly he's not. Disappointed"). Very much depends on her personality, how she interprets her rejection (her being in control vs. you being in control), and what her expectations are with you (lover, boyfriend, etc.).
Some examples: if you take her for a walk, then grab dinner, then go dancing, then go stargazing... you've pretty much got to try to get her home at that point, otherwise there's a good chance she walks away saying, "What does this guy WANT with me? Is he just leading me on?!" Conversely, if you take her out for a quick 1- or 2-hour date that doesn't involve too much more than a little chit-chat, inviting her home here can come across premature and overeager, as if you're not reading the emotional arc of the situation.
The easiest shortcut for knowing whether to invite her home or not is if a.) you've done a lot, and b.) she's looking at you entranced. If you can say "yes" on both of those, it's worth inviting her home. "No" here is dangerous though, because while it can sometimes ramp up the anticipation, in many other instances it can kill it. You very much need to handle a "no" expertly to still come out on top - it's worth saving the ask with a girl who sees you as a boyfriend candidate until you're reasonably sure it won't be turned down unless you're confident you know what you're doing or you want to push some boundaries (or aren't too afraid of losing the girl).
Chase
This is interesting... I
This is interesting... I really think it depends on how you ask her. I feel like a girl is either going to be into you, or she isn't going to be into you by the end of the date. If she isn't into you, then inviting her home or not inviting her home is probably not going to make a difference -- she'll decline your offer, and you probably won't see her again. If she's into you, meaning she has either slotted you as a "lover" or a "boyfriend," then in this scenario, asking her very smoothly to come back home as if it would be the natural thing to do next since you two are "having such a good time" really can't be that hurtful as long as you are extremely calm and accepting of what the answer is. I think being "too persistent" here is what will actually kill your chances of you getting another date, if that's what she wanted. I would only be very persistent if your goal was a one-night stand in the first place.
i.e.
This is usually one of the few situations where I recommend initiating some kind of physical contact (such as going for a kiss) to let her know that you are genuinely interested in her, and it also shows her that her declining your offer didn't affect you one bit; it shows that you still want to see her again. (NOTE: Just make sure to be the one to end the kissing first! Don't let her think she "has" you!)
After that, be cool, send her on her way, and hit her up a few days later for date #2.
So in summary, heavy persistence in inviting a girl home I think is great if you were only looking for something casual (and you don't care about the outcome), but I think only subtle persistence should be used if you think the girl is longer-term material and seems to have decided that she won't go home with you on the first date.
I've had great success with a pattern similar to this. =)
- Franco
Small city dating
Hi chase,I'm going to be moving to a small city under 100,000 population metropolitan area,and weather is cold there the majority of the year.are there any advantages or positives of living in a city of that population size when it comes to dating women?
Re: Small city dating
Anon-
There is one advantage for dating of being in a smaller town, and that is if you like social circle dating, and you're the type of guy who very quickly rises to the top of his circle, you can make a killing.
Typically, the smaller the population size and the less movement in and out of the area there is, the more conservatively women behave (because they have more to lose, their reputations are more important, and there are fewer mating options change to - e.g., they can't disappear into anonymity and go meet somebody new). If you can get established as the top guy in your circle in a small town, though, you can often be one of the few people with access to a decent supply of women there.
Before you go, I'd recommend checking out Peter's series here on meeting women via social circle - that'll be of a good deal of importance there.
Chase
Observations
Sometimes I swear you work for the NSA and have access to my phone! I had a convo recently about this same exact damn thing... that the reason for all these "rules" is fear. But it's logical that fear creeps in after having experienced humiliating circumstances. Even though some women are adept at not showing their hurt (e.g. they appear strong on the surface), when they're alone or with friends, they feel CRUSHED. And as human beings we do not forget how something made us FEEL. And if some new man made a woman feel like garbage, when she encounters something similar (like YOU), the negative emotions flow automatically and without restraint. Especially if they aren't truly at their core super confident (instead of appearing that way on the surface). So it really helps to be empathetic in your interactions with people in general. And I've found out that when you can read how women must feel without them telling you anything first... it's impressive to them!
And also the part about not planning ahead (in front of her) and instead seeming to just live life in the moment... excellent advice! Planning ahead in front of her removes the mystery element, so even though you're excited to see her again, you have to give her some time to think about you, to stew on the memory of you... this is how embed yourself into her subconscious. Let her wonder when you will contact her next. If she's really excited, and you're an interesting person that makes her wonder, then her heart will flutter when she sees your txt on her phone. She'll wonder what is coming next from this interesting individual! In what direction will you take her mind now???
One thing I've realized after thinking about how dating works on TV shows and in some movies... guys there tend to be dweebs when you stop and think about it. They give so much attention to a woman who hasn't yet invested anything at all. The result I think is that women in the scripted dramas are actually given more power. But women in real life seem to respond MUCH more strongly to not having as much power (at least with a new attractive man) It's almost like the less power they have with you, the more attracted they get. The more badass you are and do what you want around them (while being respectful of course), without worry about consequence, the more they crave you. It's like you have to give them just enough yawn for them to feel as if you might like them, but not so much that it appears that you've surrendered.
For me this was a weird concept to wrap my brain around when I was starting out. Because at least for me, I like to have control over things in my life. I have always consciously hated that "out-of-control" feeling when dealing with people. And because I hated it, I thought other people did too. So I erroneously tried to make life easier for women by being too nice, showing too much interest too soon, letting them know I like them, etc. thinking that they would appreciate me more. Yeah right.
And after thinking about why I was no challenge, I now know why my emotions were so stirred up by certain girls. It was not because of them per se, but more because of the image that I conjured up in my mind about what they could be to me! The possibilities! The potential! Me being the creative guy I am, I envisioned things in my mind!! Delicious! Exciting! I didn't care about the dangers, I was ready to move forward now and deal with the dangers later! Except I didn't realize how that presentation of my self came across to skeptical women who didn't share my enthusiasm. Presentation is so important. How could I be so enthusiastic about someone who hasn't done anything to prove themselves to me? It's like powerful and connected people don't get enthusiastic easily, if at all. And so as I have learned to tamp down my enthusiasm and be more skeptical and on alert for BS answers or evasion, etc and letting that drive my questions and persisting when they're evasive/cutting thru the BS, I am finding success. It's kinda like you have to operate a little more like a woman to get them to stay attracted to you. And I thought complete opposites attract! Hah.
Anyways, thanks for the article.
Not Being in Control, Feminine vs. Masculine Qualities
Breeze-
Well, you know, the funny thing is, women hate not being in control every bit as much as men do. BUT, it's the very hating of this that drives up attraction. Just like how you meet a beautiful, charming girl you really like, and then… she keeps flaking on dates. You hate it! But you start to become more and more enamored of her… chase her more and more. She starts seeming more and more valuable, like some priceless treasure who of COURSE must be valuable… why else would she be so scarce?
You're right, in many ways, you are operating more like women are in dating to get more success. The better a man gets with women, the more you'll notice he possesses a set of "feminine" qualities about himself… still masculine, but with a certain feminine edge that most men lack (usually, again, because they're afraid of being labeled "gay" if they have it - but a guy with his fundamentals in place never gets labeled "gay" no matter how much of a feminine edge he wields, because men are intimidated by him as much as women are intrigued by him).
On opposites attraction: positive assortative mating - people look for people like themselves. You always see these big muscular uber tough guys whom you'd think women would go for because their bodies are just so ripped - and women DO like muscular men - yet, there they are dating fat girls, because that's all they can get… often it's because the men you see like this with those kinds of women are so afraid of having even the slightest "feminine" quality about themselves (and getting called "gay" by their buddies in the gym) that they can't become something women relate to, and so the more attractive women meet them and immediately write them off as roughnecks or meatheads (as opposed to, say, the really muscular guys who figure they can do whatever they WANT, and freely adopt some of the more feminine traits / sense of humor / softness / sexiness… those guys clean up with girls, but there are so few of them).
Chase
Femininity and muscles and attractiveness
Two very interesting topics in this message.
1. FEMININE QUALITIES
This is very interesting, I'm not sure I get what you are referring to in your message. An article dedicated to this subject would be very interesting
2. MUSCLE AND ATTRACTIVENESS
I remember somewhere you mentioned that hitting the gym was "optional", while now you seem to imply that big muscular guy clean it up.
I was wondering, on average, if muscle and body building can be considered an additional further "fundamental" and/or how much do they actually help.
Types of Women
Chase ive noticed that alot of women date men similar to them... for example a thug girl usually dates a thug guy or a girl who has had a poor life and has been abused by their parents seem to have abusing parents is this mostly true? Also ive heard that most women are attracted to men who are similar to their father is this true as well? Sometimes I wonder why some girls are attracted too a guy who by most peoples standards is unattractive...
Re: Types of Women
Anon-
Yes, absolutely true. Women will tailor their image to the style of man they are attracted to (just as cleverer men will tailor their image to the style of women THEY are attracted to), to better enable them to net those men.
For instance, a girl who likes educated men with good career prospects will pursue an education herself and work to improve her own career prospects to put herself in the same circle as those men and more easily relate to those men and be thought a match by those men. A girl who likes body builders will hit the gym herself. A girl who likes surfers will spend a lot of time at the beach. And there's also a feedback loop going the other way, too - a girl who's a fitness nut will end up dating men from the gym, build up more positive reference points with these kinds of men, and come to see them as "her type."
Women who've had messed up backgrounds are attracted to the same kinds of relationships, yes. It's almost spooky how consistently people imitate the patterns of their parents. Genetic predispositions and early-life role models rule all, I suppose, and if her mother was attracted to men who'd treat her horribly and leave her, she'll be attracted to men like that too. Some women try to fight this, but they ultimately end up going for men like their fathers.
A good rule of thumb: if you want to know what you're getting into with a girl, just see what her parents' relationship is/was like. Then you've got your answer.
Chase
Chase!Check this out if you
Chase!
Check this out if you have the time!
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/07/09/5553262/sex-video-clears-men-accused-of...
Tried looking up how to link websites using my browser, could not get it to work for some reason;oh well, next time.
Anyway, man when I read this my throat clenched and I felt like I was going to choke, now I don't feel like going to clubs for at least 3 weeks, maybe years! Why would a chick do this?
To me it seems like after she left her stuff accidentally at their place she could not come up with a good enough lie to her boyfriend so she accused them of rape.
I know most chicks are not like this, but man just picking up that one chick can make your life hell if your not careful. It doesn't seem like the guys took advantage of her in any way at least from this story. Stories like this and the story of Brian Banks give me the greatest feelings of dread.
I guess I just want some solace lol, you ever have a problem like this in your years of picking up?
Thanks
Nick
Edit:Phew! I feel better now, just remembering all those great times I had with chicks, anyway thanks Chase.
False Rape Accusations
Nick-
From what I understand, this is reasonably rare, but it can happen, both with women doing it unconsciously (girls who got drunk and forgot that the sex they had was consensual) and consciously (girls who want revenge, are on a power trip, or are mentally unstable).
I haven't had it happen to me, but I did have a coworker back when I was just out of high school who slept with a girl who was very drunk (they were sitting outside, she threw up, then she grabbed him and started making out with him, then they had sex), who then went around telling everyone in his school that he'd raped her. He was panicking at work and saying, "What if she calls the cops?! I didn't rape her! She's telling everyone that I raped her!" and I told him, "Have you tried just talking to her and saying, 'Whoa, hey, please stop saying I raped you, because I did not rape you. Do you not remember? I thought we were going to, like, DATE or something! You told me you had a great time!'" So he did that and then she calmed down and said, "Oh, okay. Sorry about that," and everything was fine for him after that.
Best defenses against this are don't sleep with drunk women, who can "misremember" events (when out at nightclubs, tell girls to stop drinking so much because you want to get to know THEM, not 'drunk them' - them being drunk also generally makes it a lot harder to pull - girls get sloppy, start throwing themselves at any man in the vicinity, their friends start trying to protect them from making a 'bad decision,' etc... it's just smoother if she's no more than buzzed) and make sure you give a girl a great experience, and try to sleep with her again in the morning when she's stone sober to really pound home the point that this is something she did because she wanted to. Give her a follow up text a few hours after she leaves: "I had a great time last night. Hope you're not too tired today ;)" to reassure her that you don't think ill of her, and to get her reply text that you can use as defense in the event of any false accusations.
You can take other precautions - 50 Cent, the rapper, has said publicly that he videotapes ALL his sexual encounters, because false rape accusations with rappers and athletes are so prevalent from women trying to get money or fame - but this is still not THAT common.
I also notice it happens a lot more often with MMF threesomes / group sex - my suspicion is, the girl feels GREAT when she's doing it, then later has trouble dealing with the fact that she had sex with more than one man, has an internal ego battle over whether she is a "slut," and finally decides to go accuse the men of raping her (especially if she'd been drinking), because she wants to find a way to not be accountable for having done this.
In the case of the girl in this story, it sounds like she intentionally created drama - having sex with the two men, leaving her belongings in the guy's apartment, and then crying to the boyfriend that she'd been raped. Hard to speculate on motives, but I doubt it had anything to do with the men themselves - they were just pawns. The real focus was on her relationship with the boyfriend - perhaps she needed to see him defend her from a "bad guy"; maybe the relationship was on the rocks and she wanted to create a situation where he'd come to her defense and it would bring them together more firmly. Or it could've been she was just ditzy and didn't cover her tracks well and he found out about it, and she decided to paint the two men as rapists.
Whatever the case, it's a weird scenario, and not one I think you stand much chance of running into.
But do be careful with girls from nightclubs. I love picking up in clubs, but I am ALWAYS cautious about it... clubs attract some of the worst kinds of people. Not all of them; there are plenty of normal people there too. But it's good to be a little careful when meeting women in them.
Chase
Moving Too Slow and the Friend Zone
Hi Chase,
Let's say a was first a lover (kissed the girl) to a girl but she wasn't ready to move things too fast because she was hurt in the past, and so she puts him into limbo between friend zone and lover. But THEN she regrets things and starts to move him slightly into lover zone.
If the guy isn't sure whether he's fully in lover category, should the guy reciprocate the lover vibe or play hard to get and see if she continues the chase?
Lover / Friend Zone
CJ-
In that case, I'd just play hard to get until she went FULL lover on you and started asking you out. Even then, still play a bit hard to get and let her chase... obviously that's what she likes.
Until then, treat it as just another attempt to get you back in the friend zone with a little more affection.
Chase
Three Different Scenarios
Girl 1: I meet her at a party, and she sends me a Facebook message the next day. I get her # and we text a little and try to schedule a date. We go through 3 days for the next week. Tuesday? Busy. Thursday? Can't do. Sunday? Nope. Finally she tells me "we can just do it next week" but still doesn't nail down a day/time. I write her off, but she proceeds to text me incessantly over the next week (this week). I'm still responding, but I don't know about it. I'd like to just next her, but she's still sweating my nuts via text. So... I don't know I guess.
Girl 2: Scheduled a date within a couple days of me asking. Went on the date, bounced her to three different venues, had great time. Very physical with each other, hugged me extra tight at the end of the night, and we kissed. It was a six hour date. She then leaves two days later for a week long vacation. I text once or twice during the seven days to stay on her radar. She gets back tomorrow. Going to try to schedule a 2nd date, but I feel like I'm back at square one.
Girl 3: I have a field (lay) report up on the forums about this one. Met her on a Tuesday, first date on that same Friday, second date the very next day (Saturday), and took her to bed. That's date compression.
I guess what I take from all this is that it just works or it doesn't? How could I have works the first two in my favor? The second girl, it just seems like I have no control over that one.
NJ
Re: Three Different Scenarios
NJ-
Girl #1: I love these kinds of girls. They're interested, but flakey. I lightly scold them over text and toss the ball back into their courts, and they usually love it (I guess guys don't hold them accountable all that much). Looks like this: "Tell you what - I can't do the whole chasing thing, I'm really not good at it, and you keep trying to make me! So, I'm leaving this on you - you plan a date and time, and let me know when it is. I'll meet you then ;)"
Girl #2: Probably back to square one, yes. The vibe on the first date sounds like you should've went for the pull (or maybe you did, and no dice). The alternate is you just assume things were so intimate on Date #1 that you're going to invite her over to cook - you might be able to pull that off. "Why don't you come over, we'll make some dinner, and you can tell me all about the vacation." Since she's just getting back from vacation, she may be amenable to a quiet, relaxing night back chatting with you - and more, of course.
Girl #3: that's the hottie from the tanning salon you've got right here, correct? I just read that one earlier today… going to comment. Nice pickup; nice report! That's definitely date compression. Works wonders for creating that whirlwind romance feel, doesn't it?
Chase
Reply about perfectionist and What if first date i at your crib?
Hey Chase, this is a reply to your comment. What I mean by protectionist is I keep trying to think of the right time wrong time frame and the should I say this or should I say tthat type thing.
Its pretty much I always try to think of the right thing to say but I never say it because I keep thinking of different things to say.
Should I just say anything?
For example, at work I seen a cute girl I had no idea on how to approach. I kept thinking I should say this but it might sound lame, then its maybe if I smile, but I shouldn't smile to much because ill look tto platonic and not sexy, but if I don't smile she'll think im too serious. The cycle keeps going on and on, it's basically saying im indecisive. I think of one thing then another idea pops into my head to change my other idea and then I can't pick which sounds best and I end up not saying anything at all.
As for ego, I think like I don't need anybody, if a girls interested in me or if my friends are really my friends they'll contact me first.
My questions about this article is, does this work with girls you work with?
If the first date's at your house and your in the boyfriend zone, do you try to sleep with her?, deep dive then sleep with her, or just chill and not make any moves at all?
Does the kiss rule apply if it's a date at your house? Even if its the 1st date, 2nd date, etc?
Is it possible to chill at your crib for three dates then sleep with her on the third? Or is that moving too slow since she's been at the crib 3 times so she must want sex.
P.S. What would you do if you worked in sales and saw a cute girl shopping? How would you pick her up?
Thank You Chase
Work and Picking Up Shoppers
Balla-
Yes, get in the habit of just saying the best thing that comes to mind. You'll stumble for a bit but the mistakes will make you learn. You can't learn until you start doing, no matter how much you think.
Work is a different scenario. "Never shit where you eat," and all that. You're going to be hesitant at work because you've got a lot more to lose; if things go south there, it gets messy. Until you know what you're doing, better to keep work girls as colleagues alone and focus your efforts on women you don't know. You just can't push the bounds with coworkers when you don't have enough experience with women yet, because you get one shot (your coworker) instead of 1,000 shots (all the random women you'll meet cold approaching).
If you're going out with a girl you work with, I'd probably recommend date compression, yes, just because you're going to tend to automatically be in boyfriend territory unless you're really good with colleagues.
If it's a date at your house - don't do that unless you will have first sex somewhere else (your car, a hot tub place, the beach, etc.). Otherwise, you set the precedence that your house is a non-sexual environment, and when you DO want to make a move on a subsequent date, it's going to be weird for both of you.
Hitting on customers - just flirt with her first, and if she seems to be enjoying it and responding positively, ask her, "Is it bad of me to be flirting with you? I mean, I don't want to interrupt your shopping…" and if she says, "Well, I'm just trying to find [whatever]," in a serious way, tell her, "I understand - I'll get out of your way," and leave with a smile. If she says no, keep flirting, or she teases/flirts back, ask her if she's single and then ask her on a date.
Chase
The entrapment
The rules they set up might be there, or they might not be there.. It`s their subconscious mind that makes those decisions.
But what interests me the most is this.
You have a girl you like, she likes you back, you talk on the phone, chat via facebook ( with her putting the kiss smiley :* at the end of every conversation on facebook ) and what happens is this.
I ask her out she says it would be lovely to go out with me.
When i ask for her schedule she flakes, she says she can`t at the moment etc..
I asked her out again after a week or so, and the same thing happens.
We keep in touch though the same way as before, but what happens next is what puzzles me.
I haven`t met her in person but She is single, she is flirting with me, and all of the sudden after i ask her out again she says " I have a boyfriend " ..
What the ?!
Normally i would joke with " you must have the wrong idea, i do not want to be your boyfriend, i just wanted to hang out with you " in a way to friendzone her into thinking " what ? i thought he wanted to bed or make out with me " ..
Is that a good way to counter her " i have a boyfriend" statement ..
If it isn`t can you tell me some good comeback sentences or quotes ?
Thanks.
Regards.
Over-Bantering
Anon-
When you get "I have a boyfriend," unless she's using it to clear herself mentally of any culpability if you move forward with her (which it doesn't sound like is the case here), it generally means, "Hold your horses, I'm not interested in you like that." If it comes after she initially showed interest, that means somewhere along the lines it went off track; you missed an escalation window or otherwise took too long and attraction expired.
What sounds like it happened with this girl is you got into text bantering / instant messaging, which is a big no-no for girls you want in any kind of non-platonic way (unless you met online... perhaps the one exception). For any girl you meet in real life, texting you want to keep purely for setting up logistics for a date; you usually want to skip the phone call, unless you only had the chance to talk to her for a few minutes when you first met her and didn't propose a date; and instant messaging you just want to avoid altogether. With Facebook, if you must add girls as friends, don't add them until after you've slept with them, or if you only want them as platonic friends and are not going to pursue them (see: "Why to NOT Meet Girls on Facebook"). Girls will uses smileys, kissy faces, and "xoxo"s in texting / IM'ing because they've learned this is an effective way of keeping men in their orbit.
I'd recommend checking out "How to Text a Girl" to use as your baseline for interacting with women you'd like to date via correspondence. Long and short of it: keep it tight, keep it brief, and keep it focused on figuring out logistics for meeting up with her in person, and you can't go wrong.
Chase
Wait, am I paying for these dates?
It's hard to imagine a girl who would move that fast if I also make her pay for her food/dessert. You say you don't pay for girls, so how does this work?
Curtis
Not Paying for Dates
Curtis-
Check out this article for the discussion on not paying: Should You Pay for a Date?
Paying for dates rather tends to slow things down, not speed them up, as the communication typically is, "There's a value imbalance between us, so I'm going to pay for you to make spending time with me worth your while," which subtly causes a woman to question whether a man she's on a date with is really up to par with her or not. The sole exception to this is older man / younger woman; any time a girl is 10+ years your junior, it seems to be advantageous to pay; it ends up expressing dominance and established/mature power. When she's closer to your age - at least in the West - paying communicates lower mating value, rather than higher.
Chase
Busy, busy and busy, but...
Hey Chase, following all your advice I've truly became one of a kind most men can only dream about. Going place-to-place, meeting girls here and there really is fun but really its more of a second nature now due to schedule overflow. But I have one tiny problem, it's about my sexy walk when carrying items. Like grocery, trays (of food), suitcases and all the stuff that hinders your sexy walk. Swaying my shoulders would just cause the things to hit me and is unbalanced that feels awkward. So is there a way to walk sexy with big stuff in your possession?
Cheers,
Begin-to-End
Burdened Sexy Walk
Begin-
You can still walk fairly sexy while burdened, it's just... harder. Worth practicing when you've got stuff in your hands just for getting it down well. The easiest way to walk sexier when burdened is walking with a wider gait; that is, imagine that your thighs are chafing against each other and you're trying to not allow them to touch, or imagine that your testicles are extremely large and need a lot of room. This is one of the things that contributes to a walk looking sexy (it suggests to someone else viewing that you are well-endowed and, thus, infused with testosterone, power, and masculinity), and it's still relatively easy to do even with lots in your hands / arms.
Chase
Is Boyfriend Zone and Friend Zone a Spectrum?
Hey Chase,
Do women have clear, defined categories when it comes to if a guy should be a boyfriend, lover, or just a friend with the potential to become a boyfriend? Or is it more of a spectrum where a guy can move along that scale if he plays his cards right and is a sexual man?
Spectrum
Greg-
It's more a feel of, "Here's what I think this guy MIGHT be," and, "Here's what I know this guy is NOT."
So for instance, she may meet a man and think, "Hmm... he MIGHT make a really good boyfriend! But I would NEVER have a fling with him."
Once you're "ruled out" for something, it's extremely difficult to get ruled back in... so, do it right the first time, or cut contact and move onto the next girl to try again!
Chase
Fantastic article -- More like this please!
What an article! Chase, my man, your logic and plan of action is always great.
However, I'd like to see more articles like this about the boyfriend process. I agree it's better to do the lover thing fast but sometimes it just doesn't happen or sometimes we want to be that boyfriend. Sometime we want to sweep them off their feet.
I'd like to see you write an article on making girls fall in love. Ricardus writes plenty about it but I want to hear what YOU have to say!
Thanks bro.
Heads up
Just as a heads up, Rider: The girls you usually bed on the first date can actually fall the hardest in love with you. You just need to keep sleeping with them after that and it will happen naturally.
The scenario Chase describes above is simply for situations where the girl has subconsciously decided that she will not sleep with you on date #1. In that case, you can use date compression to still end up as her lover, even if you're in the boyfriend territory.
The thing to keep in mind here is that, in order to even become her boyfriend, you have to be her lover. So if you become her lover first, it is much easier to transition into the boyfriend role, rather than the reverse.
Always try to become her lover on the first date if you can. If you "slip up" (or she's experienced) and you end up in the boyfriend role, use date compression to get her into bed with you, and, ultimately, into a relationship.
Cheers,
Franco
Boyfriend Process, Making Girls Fall in Love
Rider-
+1 on what Franco said. I do have a friend I know who likes deliberately taking things slow with women and not sleeping with them until they're begging for it, but I can't say how consistent this is... and I think he more enjoys the process (teasing them, making them chase) than the end result (sleeping with them, taking them as girlfriends), so the actual "getting" of them isn't as big a concern for him I don't think. My recommendation would be, if there's a girl you ABSOLUTELY want the best shot of actually having as a girlfriend, sleep with her as fast as possible. However, if you do legitimately enjoy the process of going through the early pre-sex romance and that's a bigger concern to you than actually getting any particular girl in question, I see nothing wrong with slowing it down if you like.
I could do a write up on having girls falling in love, although it's more something that just naturally happens than anything I've given much thought to before. I'll see what I can tease out, detail-wise though ;)
Chase
Fixing Things
Hi Chase,
Awesome article full of great points. I am actually in boyfriend territory with a girl I took too long to bed. Thing is, I'm cool with being her boyfriend if that's where things are headed (and they seem to be). I have high value to her and I've done things to really make her fall for me and it's showing.
I read up on qualities to look for in women and she fits the bill.
One problem, though. I'm 11 years older than her but she thinks I'm only 6 years older than her. Keep in mind, I would like to actually start a relationship with her.
What do I say to fix this lie? How do I say it?
We've known each other for 3 months and it looks like we can start getting into a relationship fast the way things are going.
Thanks, Chase, for your help.
Re: Fixing Things
Aaron-
I wouldn't mention it until after you've slept with her a few times (unclear from your comment if you've passed this point or not). Once she's got some emotions swirling for you though and you're reasonably locked in - not too deep into the relationship though - it's best if you can correct her when she says something about your age in a non-public situation. e.g., she mentions your Chinese zodiac sign is the year of the sheep and you say, "Huh, no - I'm born in 1974 - that's the year of the tiger," as if she should've known that. And she'll go, "What?! I thought you were born in 1979!!" and you'll say, "Nope - 1974."
Then she'll freak out a little bit, you'll stay calm and look at her like she's crazy for making it a big deal but otherwise remain nonplussed, and then she'll calm down and deal with it and get over it.
If no natural moments are coming up you can always leave your driver's license out for her to stumble upon, though this one is not quite as elegant. I had a friend's sister discover her boyfriend was 10 years older than she thought he was this way... led to some tumult, but they were fine after a couple of days.
Chase
Pick Up Community
Hey Chase,
I've been reading a lot of your stuff and you say that you know guys who did this and know guys who did that. Or, when you "got involved" with the pick up community. How do you find these people? I live in NYC and it would be cool to meet up with other people in the community. However, I don't want to meet anyone that is super gamey, or who uses cheesy pick up lines. Any advice?
X
Meeting Guys with Game
X-
Some of the guys I know who are good I met through a small online pickup forum, that had a very high caliber of member quality on it. There were really only 15 to 20 people on that forum (it was a private board for alumni of the first bootcamp I took with a great but now-defunct company), but almost all of them were or became pretty solid with women, and everybody there was a lot more normal (or even exceptional; a surprising number of those guys are quite wealthy) than the folks you'd have met on the bigger pickup boards back then like mASF (also now defunct).
Others I met as I was out and about - one of my good friends and wingmen in Southern California I met through an invitation-only social club, another was the roommate of a guy I met at a bar picking up girls. Still another friend in SoCal good with women I met at a nightclub; I was relaxing at the bar alone, and he approached me to ask if I'd mind winging him on a couple of girls.
I've never actively gone "looking" for guys who are good with girls, but I do keep my radar honed for it, and when you see it it's a rare enough thing that it's probably worth getting to know the guy better. At the higher levels, most guys have different enough strategies that you can learn a good deal from anyone who's sufficiently talented at sleeping with lots of women in a hurry.
I'd probably avoid your local pickup lairs, as they tend to attract guys who are "super gamey" or use "cheesy pick up lines." There can be some good guys mixed in there too, but even many of them will sometimes have their own not-quite-normal quirks about them.
Chase
Incredible site.
Hi there Chase.
I used to follow the teachings of the other company, the one super focused on inner game. I grew very tired of their content because it really started to sound like too much mental masturbation.
Then I ended finding this site and I am very impressed with the quality of the content. No inner game fluff talk but rather content that has very practical application.
I´m fortunate to be very handsome so it baffled to no end why girls would give me a hard time to go to bed with me. Now I understand that if you´re the opposite of a life wreck and you look good girls will put you very quickly into boyfriend material and will resist attempts to turn them into FBs.
On that other site if you say you are handsome and girls resist your lay attempts it is because you are a complete faggot who can´t escalate. What a relief not having to read that bullshit anymore.
This site is so great, I´m pretty sure I will get some of the programs just to reward you for the quality of the articles.
Keep the articles coming, especially more on how to disqualify yourself as boyfriend material.
Since I´m already here allow me to ask: whats the best way to actually verbalize "I´m not interested in a long term relationship" without sounding harsh (for the girl)?
I feel I can end up losing girls who want me as boyfriend but could be down for sex only if I play my cards right, but they might get super pissed if I just blurt out I´m not interested in having a girlfriend.
Disqualifying as a Boyfriend
Rational-
That sounds unpleasant... there are a lot of places in the pickup niche that attract cynical / negative people who attempt to raise their own statuses by belittling others, unfortunately. The Internet is rather conducive to people saying things to other people that they would never say to them face-to-face in real life.
Telling women you're "not interested in relationships" instantly lowers the caliber of woman you can get, because women always take it as a personal slight - she knows there's SOME girl out there you'd be crazy about dating if she came along, and the fact that you aren't that way toward her can send her into auto-rejection.
The better call is using one of the reasons here: Telling Women You're NOT Boyfriend Material, especially if it's travel- or just-got-out-of-a-relationship-related. I personally tend to tell women I'm either on vacation (if I am), or I don't even know how much longer I'll be in the country - I may be here a few more months, or I may be gone tomorrow.
Play up your instability and uncertainty due to forces largely out of your control - you're leaving, you're recovering from a relationship, you're already IN a relationship (I've heard wearing a wedding ring when you pickup can lead to some really interesting results, though I haven't tried this one myself) - and you'll get the benefits of being ruled out as a boyfriend without the drawbacks of having a girl feel slighted.
Chase
Playing hard to get
Hi, id really appreciate some help,
I just finished University and i got myself a local job and because i'm a student i take the bus. It just so happened that the cute girl that works there that i saw during my job interview, also takes the same bus. So every morning i chat to her, we flirt a bit and start laughing, she plays with her hair a lot as well, but its a new job and im naturally shy anyway, so i don't have too much to say and neither does she.
She usually has friends that she works with get the same bus so i cant flirt as much, but it breaks up the silences.
At work she hardly flirts at all, i always try and shout out a few funny/cocky remarks but she doesn't respond much, its like shes rising above my petty remarks and playing hard to get, or that she doesn't feel comfortable doing it at work.
When i finish work i have to pass the desk she works at to leave and i stop and have a chat with her on the way out, i tease her and flirt with her a bit and then i leave and the same thing happens most days. Im a layed back person and to be honest im not that bothered if i get with her or not, but id obviously prefer it, i just want more of a reason to ask for her number, or take her out, as she hardly makes any effort with her playing hard to get tactics.
A couple of days in to the new job she invited me to a go-karting event that our work place organized, there seemed to be some gossip from there on about us going on a date at work to which they brought up when we were all together at a meeting which i found funny, but she seemed uncomfortable with the situation.
So i went karting and we flirted a bit before hand on the bus . The thing is every time i was at a distance from her and then turned around, id see her turn away as if she was looking at me whilst i wasn't looking, but whenever i'm around her and her friends she doesn't talk to me much ( maybe a few flirty comments) but laughs with all her friends, i thought she was shy at first but she was quite loud and chatty with her friends.
I got on with all her friends fine, i ended up having more of a flirty conversation with her sister as she also works there and came along. We went for a few drinks afterwards and we were all having a laugh, i joined in as much as i could but i'm new and they've all got there own banter and what not. I started bantering with her a bit whilst she was there so we could flirt but she didn't seem to offer much in return, and as before she seemed to pay attention to her friends a lot more.
I was also laughing and flirting with one of her other girl friends in front of her , but she had a boyfriend.
I had also previously been invited me to another work night out but that's not for a while. Ive been at work for 2 weeks now and I'd of thought she might of showed more interest by now if she was playing hard to get, but i'm not sure. Maybe i should have moved faster and showed interest in her quicker, got her number and worked it out from there, but from the start i thought back to previous times when i've been with a girl that i've worked with and if things don't go so well it can get very awkward (don't piss in the pond you drink from an all that) , so that thought also kept me quite reserved when dealing with her, is this the right way to play it or not? .
I'm just at a point where im not sure if shes interested with the way she acts, i don't chase her or anything, i talk to her when its convenient, i don't go out of my way to do so. I hardly chat to her on facebook either. Should i bother getting her number?? and risk making it awkward at work, the thing is given the way shes been around me i'm not sure if getting her number will turn out any better as she seems reserved towards me. I'm not usually the pursuer in the relationship i just sit back normally.
Cheers
Girl at Work
Anon-
Dating at work is similar to dating in a classroom in that you don't want to move super fast (i.e., ask her out the first day you meet her), but you do want to move relatively fast - generally, I'd recommend setting up a date with her between the third and fifth times you see her.
It's very easy to become the orbiter / get stuck in the friend zone with women from work where you don't move fast to remove things from platonic workmate mode right away... then you are perpetually chasing and flirting, and SHE is flirting and playing hard to get, but it's no more than that, and any efforts to push further feel weird because she's become so used to flirting with you and having it go nowhere. Suddenly you want MORE than this... uhhh, what changed? Feels off.
I still need to do a proper post on dating in the workplace (there's one on flirting here: Can You Flirt at Work Under the Radar? Why Yes You Can), but for this I'd say either ask her out sometime in the next week if you're ever going to do it, or just accept that it'll be a fun flirtation and invest your "get the girl" energies into some more promising prospects instead.
Chase
Feeling like a ghost
Hey Chase,
I've been following your website for a really long time and I am grateful for the work that you put in. Really helped me change my life, especially the mindset ones.
I just have one major problem I just cannot seem to solve, and it regards to social circles, and I should be asking Peter this, but it seemed like he doesn't reply to comments.
Every time I'm in sort of social circle, either it's with my main friends, a group of girls, a group of new people, it just feels like the social circle would exactly be the same with me or without me. It feels like I'm a ghost, just standing by or having unmeaningful contribution to the group. It feels really bad in the inside because you feel like you have no value to anyone, and specially I'm in highschool this is even a major issue. Do you have any suggestions or tips to feel more "contributed" and/or have more value within a social circle?
Again, thanks for all the work you do!
Contributing to the Group
Alphonso-
I'd recommend these articles, all on creating the right feelings in people socially:
Showing interest in people and making them feel good is a major key to this.
Having a sense of humor is very useful - being the guy who brings levity is usually a high value play. Being able to tell a story (and doing so) is another.
There are also the guys that people like having in the group who aren't THAT funny, who don't tell THAT many great stories, but they're big muscular guys and people like having them on their side. These are the jocks / athletes (although it helps to develop stories / humor / conversation / the ability to inspire and make people feel special as a jock or athlete, too).
I'd focus on nailing down a role for yourself first - are you the physically imposing guy who makes everyone feel safe, are you the funny guy who brings levity, are you the inspiring guy who provides the moral fiber of the group, are you the guy who's always got crazy stories about crazy things he's done or had happen to him?
Then, as you get one of these down, start adding more on. The more different kinds of social value you learn how to bring to the table, the more key you become to the groups you move in.
Chase
2nd commeng
Hey Chase,
Sorry for leaving two comments on the same post, but this is relevant to this article. I tried to do something similar, but it was AFTER I took a girl to bed. I had just read this article... night went smooth. First date, went to bed, and rocked her socks. She was even making comments like "Your energy is so intense. It makes me feel so good" This was before and after sex. This was on Friday night. She had mentioned that she'd be in the neighborhood on Sunday and maybe we can get together. So, I figured to play this one with the same card as this article- create a whirlwind romance. So I texted her the next day "Hey azucar :-) Hope you were able to get up this morning for mu tai ;-)..." "Last night was fun... we should keep the ball rolling. You're in my hood tomorrow, yeah? What time are you free? :-P"... she said "after five sugar"... and this is where I think I made a big mistake... I said "Cool. Come by around 6ish... cool?"... I think I should I have said "let's meet up", or word it differently. I realized that after I sent the text that it kinda made her out to seem slutty and I slapped myself in the head. I didn't get a response back. When I followed up, her next text seemed a bit more aloof/cold. Although, I may be reading into things too much. Not sure how to play it from here.. any advice?
Morning After Faux Pas
X-
My read's the same as yours... you slept with her one night, and then the next day you're telling her to come by for sex. But she hasn't converted to a regular sex partner of yours yet - it normally takes 2 to 4 separate sexual encounters before a girl starts seeing herself firmly as a sexual or romantic partner of yours. Even with a girl who is, being too matter-of-fact can cause auto-rejection.
I'd wait a few days on this one, and then give her a call and talk to her very relaxed. I probably wouldn't even invite her over. Just chat for 10 to 20 minutes, then tell her, well, cool, I've got to go hit the shower, I'll talk to you later, and get off the phone. The next day or a day later, text her to come over, but do so with fewer assumptions; e.g., instead of replying to "after five sugar" with, "Come by around 6ish... cool?" reply with, "Got any plans?" Don't assume she's yours just because you've slept with her once; assume she's got a life, a stacked schedule, and you've got to find out what she's got going on and whether she can see you now or later before proposing anything much.
Chase
Kissing and phisicality: when if at all?
Hey Chase,
I'd wonder, you don't mention kissing and touching in this post.
What's your recommendation on kissing during this process?
My guess would be:
-not after the first date as it's too brief;
-not after the second as you want to leave her "hanging and longing"
...
So no kissing at all?
I'd almost feel weird spending so much time without ever making a move for a kiss..
Lucifer has a good question
Lucifer has a good question and I wondered about this also.
In the beginning should there be sexual tensions flirting and hugging etc?
Hey Chase, what about
Hey Chase, what about planning the next date in person? As in, you are on the first date and it's going well but you can already tell she's got you pegged as boyfriend material. Is it better or worse to make plans there-and-then?
I had this exact situation recently. Took a girl around a few quiet bars and there was a lot of touching and kissing, but she was making me work a lot for it, so decided to just arrange to meet another time (which didn't happen). But now I'm thinking I should have just checked out of the date early (on a high point) and left her wondering for a bit.
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