Should You Pay for a Date? | Girls Chase

Should You Pay for a Date?

Chase Amante

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pay for a dateIt used to be the way things always were in America: if a man and a woman went on a date, the man paid. No two ways about it.

It's now not quite as ubiquitous as it used to be, but it is still a very common mindset. Many women expect men to pay for the first date. Many men would even feel embarrassed to not pay for the first date. Of course they pay for dates! That's just how it's done, and anything else would be classless and rude.

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his One Date System.

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

This is pretty much the most ridiculous post I've ever read. I was rolling my eyes the entire way through this one. You are giving a personal opinion and trying to cleverly disguise it as some scientific experiment with actually proof behind your hypothesis.

The majority of your inferences (and therefore conclusions) are based on premises that are completely unsubstantiated. The inferences you draw from your whole theory of this friend, provider, lover thing assumes a man has an equal chance of being put into either of the 3 categories which is not necessarily true and, I would argue, is actually very likely UNtrue. Also, it assumes that a man can be placed into only one category, which as a woman, I can tell you unequivocally is NOT true. In addition, in your section "keep it informal" you clearly make the assumption that there are two outcomes that can happen...either you can take a girl on a cheap date and get laid, or on an "uber formal" date and never win the girl over. Give me a break. Like a girl has never slept with a guy that took her on a nice date? Stop making generalizations and stop acting like it’s a black and white situation lmao. It completely undermines the credibility of the already weak argument you are trying to make.

If you want to give your opinion then give you opinion and let it be known that that is what it is…in your opinion you get laid more if you don't pay for a girl when you take her out. If you want to come to the party with a psychological experiment then bring some well documented numbers and specific case-studies proving that not paying for a date actually improves your chances with women. And you're probably going to need more then yourself because I highly doubt that one man can realistically take out and date enough women in a reasonable amount of time to generate statistically significant numbers. And if you want to make an argument (since you obviously don’t have a real study) you should think about reading up on the pieces necessary to construct a true and logical argument . It will help it to not be picked apart to hell and back.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hi Anon, thanks for dropping by.

Actually, my idea with this post was not to "disguise it as a scientific experiment" but rather to at least put up SOME numbers and draw SOME conclusions rather than simply cough up the same mainstream rehash that everyone else bandies about. Yep, I know, you should always pay for women because that's what your second grade teacher said is the path to marital bliss, but... well... from everything I've actually seen, that advice, despite being quite ubiquitous, doesn't hold up.

No, this isn't a proper scientific experiment conducted in a lab; I'm not funded to conduct any research, and I'm not sure even how well you could have a controlled study for something like this. But, since you do seem so interested... any interest in providing a grant?

That said, it doesn't make much sense to call this an "opinion" either, because I am, like it or not, measuring real results.

A few questions your comment raises:

  • Where do I say a man has an equal chance of landing in the friend, lover, and provider categories? I'd say the chance is greatest for friend, lesser for provider, and significantly lesser for lover for most men.
  • Where do I say you will always succeed with women on inexpensive, informal dates or always fail on expensive, formal ones? What I say rather is that you're more likely to succeed on inexpensive ones and more likely to fail to succeed on expensive ones.

I guess what I'm saying is, in response to your demand that I "stop making generalizations and acting like it's a black and white situation"... please kindly stop twisting my words into generalizations and implying that I make gray situations into black and white ones!

In any event, kudos for attempting to "pick apart to hell and back" the arguments made in this post, though I think you fall somewhat short of that. Asking me to censor myself until I've conducted proper scientific studies is on the extreme side -- this isn't Scientific American nor is this Nature. This is MY BLOG. Discussing what I've seen to be true IN MY LIFE and the lives of others. I'm not going to censor myself because a few people find the gray world outside the Matrix is less pleasant than the colorful fairytale inside of it and they want to stay plugged in.

Anyway, this is a site designed to break things down to a technical level for men to help them do better with women, not a feel-good, pat-you-on-the-back, give-you-a-gold-star fluff site where we talk about mainstream, politically correct "how to be a nice guy she feels safe with" stuff. This is stuff that's technically correct but politically incorrect.

Finally, there's one more side to this argument, which I didn't mention here because I didn't think it was relevant, but when I have occasion to discuss it with women they always agree with me: yes, there are women out there who expect men to pay for their presence. But if all a woman is concerned about with me is whether I'm picking up the tab for her or not, then we've got a lot more problems than that. Personally, I'm looking for a woman who wants to spend time with me because she wants to spend time with me... free food be damned.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

I totally agree with you Chase. Especially the last comment. I want a woman to hang out with me because of the great qualities about me, not the great things I can provide her. Also, a guy asking a woman's opinion on dating is wrong most of the time. They'll tell you to do things that they want done for them to make them feel better. Also, I hear women say that all the time - they'll never go on a second date with a guy if he makes them split the bill. Not true. If they are having a good time and like the guy, they won't care. If they aren't having a good time and or don't like the guy, they'll care, but even if the guy paid, they still won't see the guy again because they didn't like him.

Dashie's picture

And the fact that they are just generalizing on what mainstream would expect of them.
They don't know what it's like to feel a little uneasy.

Actually I would think if they ran into the situation on this article without reading it whiles enjoying their time with the guy they are going out with they would normally be fine with this more than they realize.

Kevin 's picture

LOL, LMFAO.... youre so not a scientist. Oh my god!

This girl cracks me up. Someone just passed Statistics with a "C" and wants to show off.

"Picked apart to hell and back"? Wow, you need to stop flattering yourself. This website has some of the best advice ever handed to mankind. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this....and yes, I'm a rocket scientist.

Chase, thanks for letting this girl post on your site. She makes me crack face.

Anonymous's picture

I wholeheartedly agree Kevin.
Chase, your site is wonderful, and it actually makes SENSE
for once! It's well rested on Chase's vast experience, and is
very practical.
Thank you for your many advice.

Kenji's picture

First off, I understand where the women are coming from: if there was a blog for women on getting guys to pay for dates (and I'm sure they're around), I wouldn't enjoy reading it.

Secondly, Chase isn't saying to make the woman pay, he's just telling guys that not paying seems to increase their chances.

Thirdly, I understand Lisa's point of the inviter offering to get the tab; I live in Europe and have for the past 5 years and it's especially a cultural thing to do this in Western Europe, "I invite you" translated in both french and Spanish literally means "I will pay for you".

Fourthly, I would agree with the anonymous girl that women do place guys in more than one category. But I would also agree with Chase, though he doesn't mention it - that if women do happen to place a man in just one of those categories (or mostly in one category), her behavior towards him becomes extremely polarized. The same is true vice versa.

But for the first 3, there actually seems to be a logic where both opposing views can fit:

I'd like to bring up that I neither pay for women nor ask them to pay for me. If I do pay for them, they get the next round, and vice versa. But I would like to bring up a few occasions where a woman kept insisting I never get the next round.

She'd get me coffee, I'd offer to get the next round, then she'd bust her money out before I could take my money out and she'd pay again, telling me to "stop being ridiculous, it's just coffee". Whenever I did buy two small beers for me and her, she'd come back with two caipirinhas for me and her, etc. Yes I was sleeping with her, but this sometimes happens to a lesser degree with girls I don't sleep with.

If a person (or woman) is truly enjoying their (her) time with anyone (a guy), it seems like offering to pay seems like a natural byproduct of that. I've gone on casual drinks with ladyfriends of mine where I'm almost certainly in the "friend-zone" and they are like "Stop. This is on me". I neither offered nor asked them to pay, but I didn't refuse it, and I thanked them.

The point I'm trying to make is that Chase's post could read like "women paying is a tactic for getting women into bed" but I'd like to point out that women paying for men seems more like "a result of her already wanting to bed the guy".

Again, I don't ask women to pay for me. I always go dutch whether I'm out with a friend or a woman I really want. In other words, I always do the same thing. I haven't gone on as many dates as Chase has, nor have have I broke it down into percentages, but I will say that I did have far bigger chances with the girls that did pay for me. Why? Because for whatever reason they already wanted me and I didn't refuse when they offered, not because I used "not paying" as a tactic. The girls I did split with I've had less chances with because they weren't already as into me, but still okay. The girls that demanded I pay, I don't think I've ever, ever touched - probably because I already did something to kill my chances, which brought about this behavior in them.

That said, and from experience, I would agree with the ratios Chase gives on how paying translates into hooking up, but I'd add that who does pay seems to be an effect rather than a cause.

Lastly, to the point of expensive dates: I did have a ladyfriend that was wined and dined to the 9s and she ended up sleeping with a guy the first date. Can't say she's a gold digger because she dated a friend of mine for years who isn't the wining and dining type. Thing is, the rich guy is so loaded that he frequents places of that caliber every time, so him taking her to those places is not him being impressive - it's just what he always does and he'd do it alone anyway. There are definitely other factors that came into play, but taking a girl out on an expensive date and paying is not always trying to impress the girl in every situation. In fact, it would be ridiculous for a 40-year old investment banker to split the bill in (even) a mid-level restaurant with a 20-something year old girl who is working 3 jobs to get through college. In cases like these, and there are plenty, if he were to just pay and not fuss about paying because he always goes to the these places anyway and he's not trying to be impressive, it's just his lifestyle - I don't think it will hurt his chances plenty.

I think the point Chase is trying to make is that for the majority of us men of normal income, taking a girl to extraordinarily fancy place may look and seem a bit artificial, so we come off as trying to impress. For someone like the guy above, there's nothing really artificial about doing that, the girl picks up that he's just him - it doesn't hurt his chances, it doesn't seem like he's buying her. But if us normals were to try it, it wouldn't always fly.

Conversely, if the guy from above/ some CEO really, really goes out of his way and routine to go to some street stall to "split the bill" and "not impress her", then that's a bit of a stretch and he has already tried to impress her, she'll pick up the fact that he's "broken his back to not break his back", and his chances will have lowered.

The question of the expensive date, it seems, falls more into how routine it is for a guy (how much he doesn't seem like he's stretching), but for most of us normal chaps, it is a stretch - the cheap/normal place does seem like the better option, and it would feel more natural, and less impressive, to boot.

Found both sides extremely interesting, and saw some middleground with different semantics. To sum up, women do slot guys into more than 1 of the 3 categories, but her behavior becomes far more polarized if the guy is slotted into just one. As a guy, knowing this can drastically increase your successes depending on what you want. Defo agree with the paying-to-hooking-up ratios Chase gives, but would point out that it seems to be an effect more than a cause (he doesn't outline as a tactic, he was probably just pointing out a fact, but I could see how the post could read like a tactic). Lastly, the expensive date seems to be okay for some CEO, but as long as the guy is not trying to be impressive, that's fine. For us, that might be some cheap cafe.

If I did err of if any of my points or experiences don't make sense, alternative views and explanations are always good.

Cheers, seriously interesting stuff,

-Kenj

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Kenj, what's up brother! Cool to see you on here, man.

Yes, good point by you, and balanced reply; I should've noted that I wasn't necessarily advocating having women pay for you as a tactic, though I will note that I know a few guys who DO use it as a tactic and claim it works well for them.

Personally, I'm just increasingly having women offer to pay for things for me without me having to suggest it at all. I'd say actually the majority of first dates I've been on the past year or so, the woman has volunteered to pay. Even on a few traditional dinner dates, though I usual prefer informal cafe meet ups. In discussing this with a guy I've mentored recently, I mentioned that I think what is happening in my case is I'm providing so much value -- I'm having women frequently make comments like, "I feel so free talking to you!" and, "I feel so good when I'm around you, like I can talk about anything!" -- that they're wanting to pay for things as their share of the "value exchange."

Also a good call on the well-to-do guy springing for dates and it not being an issue. This is also something I should've mentioned to make it a properly balanced article; I'd erred in leaving it out. Men who have means can pay for things and have it be a non-issue, assuming they don't come off too provider-like in other ways. It can still raise women's provider alerts somewhat -- there's still a small risk she feels like, "Oh wow, he can just throw money like that down like it's nothing... I should be careful not to lose this one," and it's a pretty subtle effect that can subconsciously hit even the women who aren't "gold diggers" -- but overall, if the rest of your approach with women is tight, you'll have yourself mostly outside of boyfriend-territory and it won't be an issue.

Thoughtful reply, Kenj.

Chase

Anne's picture

This advice for men is total crap. I and most women love being treated well by a man. I agree with one of the statments above that said whoever invites should pay. This is standard courtesy. If I am dating a man, I would never expect him to pay for every meal, but if its the first date and he set it up, he'd better pay. And vice versa. The man I love insists on paying for meals, but every now and then let's me pay because he knows it makes me feel good to do so. We both work hard for our $, he loves being a gentleman and I love that he wants to take care of me, even though I can pay for myself. From the first time I met him, our first date and every one thereafter, I have always thought of him as a man I would date and eventually have sex with. Perhaps the women you refer to as dismissing a guy for paying and thus becoming "average" are women that don't know how to appreciate a quality man and want a man to treat them badly. To the men reading this out there, if you date a woman who can't appreciate your kindness and manners, she's not worth dating. And in return, she should be just as respectful, polite and acknowledge your efforts.

Anonymous's picture

Anne, just how often do you ask guys out on dates as opposed to them asking you? If he's already gone through the trouble of fitting you into his schedule, and making sure you were free, finding out somewhere he could take you that you would both like to go why is it that "He'd better pay?" He was the one that had to make all the moves, what did you really have to do outside of say yes and find out what to wear?

You seem to have a problem with this because this post isn't really based on what society views as "chivalrous" and you need to be "taken care of" but that's not something you ask a stranger to do, that's a parents job. You're basically asking him to commit to being your provider before he even gets to know you. Now think of that if it were the other way around, how would you feel if he wanted you to commit to being his lover before getting to know him at least a little?

People often fear change, but it's time get rid of this outdated way of thinking that women need to be taken care of. I'm not that type of person to cater to anyone, so of a girl's attitude is that I'm obligated to pay her way and show I can "take care of her" if I want anything to do with her in the future then that just shows she isn't worth my time or money. Reminds me of something called "manifest destiny" and that, my friend, really was total crap.

Jax's picture

I revel in the fact that you, a woman, have obviously come to this website to pick apart aspects that you do not agree with. Of course you would! It's counter-productive to your wants and socially acceptable pedestal for which you, as a woman, have been groomed and placed upon. In your eyes, you wield the power. A man asks you out, and you have the choice to say yes, or no. Therefore, you automatically direct the first piece of the play.

No one forced you to say yes, you said yes to a first date in response to an attraction and interest in the man. No one held a gun to your head and made you accept an invitation to dinner. When I am invited to a birthday party dinner, I do not automatically assume that the hosts will pay for my meal. If they offer it, that's awesome. However, it will not affect my enjoyment towards the meal, or the occasion for which I was invited to participate in.

Apparently, "if its the first date and he set it up, he'd better pay" according to you. Well, why is that? Honestly, think to yourself why this man owes you a meal as a human being. He invited you to spend time with him. I don't understand how that equates to "he better pay!!!" Just that one little snippit of your post is all I need to know about your expectations. You've offered no logical reasoning to support your request to be pampered. You simply cite the fact that you were invited. You, like all women, have an incredible sense of entitlement derived directly from your socially accepted and influenced power over men.

I am tired, just plain tired of the double standard. I'm sick of the "I wish I could find a nice guy" sighs from women who blindly and purposefully ignore real nice men. The song and dance that you women play is, honestly, utterly embarrassing. You claim that you want to be treated well, yet cannot deny your primal instinct for a man which you cannot tame. Women like you claim that "it's not as complicated as you make it seem!" or "I don't know what kind of women you go out with" while simultaneously stroking your egos when you make a man prove his worth to you.

"I and most women love being treated well by a man." of course you do!! Who wouldn't love being waited on, paid for, chauffeured around town, and doted on like a princess? Yet you, as a woman, control the flow of the relationship. And that wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that you and your sisterhood often abuse this quality in a man for when it suits your primal desires. "He's so nice, but... it's too nice." .. "On the one hand, he's everything I want, but I think he's a bit too weak." You women, always looking towards the future, stringing us along and you get upset when we try to counter you at your own "needy", self-righteous game?

Go ahead, continue to call men like myself misogynists. Maybe if you women actually grew up and threw away your girly fantasies of what a man is supposed to be, your expectations would be so high. And our tireless efforts to prove that you are beautiful, and than we care about you won't explode in our faces because, in your mind the more he reassures you of your worth, the less worth you deem him to have.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anne and Jax, lively discussion we have on here. Anne, since you started this round of nasty commenting with remarks like, "Stupid," and, "This advice... is total crap," I'm going to say the buck for the less pleasant nature of commenting on here stops with you this time.

That said, let's keep things civil, folks. This is a site for men to charm, romance, and entrance women -- to help men give women what they really want! It's supposed to be fun and good. Let's keep the Ad Hominem stuff outside and save that for Fox News and MSNBC.

Chase

Jax's picture

Understood Chase! Thanks for your articles good sir. I found your website when I google'd "How to text girls". After countless lame pages with cheesy pickup lines I finally found someone who was able to lay out a decent, and logical approach at texting women!

I also alerted my favorite online community about your website - and it got a great response. Check out this link:

http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/hoql5/stepping_up_your_textin...

Not sure if you've ever been to reddit, but that's a sub-reddit (area of reddit) dedicated to seduction. The direct link to that area is www.reddit.com/r/seduction

There's also /r/sex, /r/politics, /r/askreddit, /r/gaming, etc, etc. You might like it if you've never been there! Huge community by the way.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hey Jax, you're very welcome, brother. Yeah, I've seen healthy chunks of traffic coming from Reddit very recently; a former student told me he'd shared a few articles on there, so I figured that was it. But -- wow, looks like a mother load of links you posted up!

I'm happy to see the Reddit community seems largely to get something out of my posts; and, much obliged to you for sharing them. Grazie.

Interesting reading the comments on there. Looks like my site design needs some improvement! Ah, tough trying to toe the line between building a site that's easily navigable and provides clear information, but at the same time gets the job done on the sales-front so I can put out products and blog posts instead of mashing keys in a cubicle. If you or any of the Reddit cats have suggestions on upgrading the look of the site / comparison sites I could benchmark, I'd be willing to give them a look and seeing if it's something I could pull off with my admittedly limited theming skills.

Meantime, I'll try to stay consistent during the building phase here, and see if I can't turn this into something special for you and everyone else who stops by.

Cheers bro, and thanks again for the links-
Chase

Hilda's picture

You guys are so funny. In that, basically you're trying to correlate your wallet with the amount of sex you wind up having and statistically weighing up the odds. No problem - this is a guy thing to do.

None of you seem to be listening to any of the female comments on this page, instead you find argument with them instead. Again, a guy thing to do - you assume it's a debate when actually it's really quite simple.

A guy who pays for the date wins points, always. If the girl isn't really interested in him but he has asked her out, she will still expect him to pay, but an extra nice girl may offer something towards the bill, whether it's dessert or a round of drinks; this could happen regardless of whether or not she is interested.

If she is not interested because of a lack of chemistry, it is unfortunate for the guy if he winds up paying for everything because he may have an expectation that she was interested. The lesson here is, don't ask a girl out to dinner unless you can afford it. If this expense is something you cannot afford the luxury of, how about keeping initial dates to just coffee or drinks, that way you can build up to dinner when you know she is definitely interested, and then she - and a relationship with her - becomes your investment.

If a girl is not interested because you are a jerk and don't realise it, she may not offer to pay anything and even if she does, will likely want to get out of there quick smart.

If a girl IS interested and you insist on paying, TRIPLE SCORE!!! Not only are you a fine catch but you are capable of handling your finances and will score highly as a gentleman. If you are the kind of gentleman who really does not like woman to pay for ANYTHING, then there is no problem other than she may turn out to be the kind of woman who objects to you paying ALL the time, and you may have to allow her to pay for some things. Most women like to give something in exchange, it may not always be a splitting of date costs, but appreciate what of herself she does give you in return for treating her so well, because a woman takes great pleasure in giving as well as receiving.

At the end of the day, it's nice for a girl in a relationship to treat her loved one every now and then, but on the whole, a man who kicks up a fuss about paying comes across as un-masculine and in my experience, is a bit of a whinger about other stuff as well. Usually because they are used to Mommy doing and paying for everything...

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Egad, Hilda. Trying not to criticize, but there's a discernible lack of applicable, practical real world understanding of female psychology here.

I just wrote a post entitled "How to Get Girls: The Last Post You'll Ever Need," primarily to address this misunderstanding about the nature of "point scoring," as you call it.

There are provider points (see the graph in the post you're commenting on) and there are lover points. And the two are most definitely not created equal.

The more provider points you get, the harder it is to get a girl in bed, and thus become her lover, and thus transition her to a relationship, assuming that's what you want (your comment assumes that men exclusively want relationships with women and women exclusively want relationships with men, which... yeah, not exactly true much of the time).

Basically, the "finer a catch" you become, the more women try to not mess it up with you and move slowly and carefully... and ultimately, due to the vagaries of life and what happens to opportunities that people move slowly on (those opportunities pass them by), the less likely you are to end up ever taking them to bed, becoming lovers with them, and yes, even getting into long-term relationships with them (ironically enough).

So yeah, you may be a fine catch by paying for things for women... but you also reduce your odds of anything ever happening by doing so. It's one of those things that seems on first glance like a good idea, but because of the oddities of how people work, ends up not being so.

Chase

Ahem's picture

Ahem, Chase, are you telling a girl that she doesn't understand female psychology? Sorry, brother, but this is ridiculous.

janis's picture

yay Hilda, EXACTLY.... maybe Chase's advice works on 20 somethings, but as we get along in years, a man who is still stuck on the topic of paying/not paying gets boring. If I am required to finace the dates, I lose romantic interest VERY QUICKLY.... get over it guys...

Rey's picture

I enjoyed the post, but I'm curious as to how you go about this. Whether the date is informal or formal, how exactly do you not pay for the girl? Can you provide some examples or advice? When the cheque comes do you start doing math to figure out who owes what, or have you agreed beforehand to split the bill? Early in your post you advocate not monetizing the date, but how does this work if you haven't said something beforehand or surprise her when the bill arrives? I imagine if most women expect men to pay because of tradition or convention they'll be caught off guard when the cheque comes and they find out they are expected to pay their share. Basically, what I'm trying to get at is how you arrive at the end of a date where both parties pay their share without surprise or upset feelings?

I understand this approach in regards to the picnic where nothing is being bought or paid for during the encounter. Similarly, if you were to suggest a walk, or getting together at the beach. But when you've invited someone to a place like a bar of cafe, even if it is informal in nature how do you share the cost? I can see inviting a girl out to a bar, and when she shows up, suggesting she grab a drink at the bar and then come join you. Is this how you go about it? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just trying to figure out how to apply what you've written in a practical sense.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hey Rey, no worries at all on all the questions. You have some good ones there.

There's a concept in the social arts called "Social Pressure." You can feel it when, say, you're talking to a cute girl, and one of her friends walks up and starts staring at you. He's using social pressure to try and make you break circle and engage him. You can feel it when your girlfriend's mad at you and giving you the silent treatment; she's using social pressure to try and make you snap and capitulate.

Women tend to be very good at using social pressure, and men tend to be not so good at deflecting it. When a check comes, men often feel social pressure to grab it and pay. This is something you should learn to resist.

So, for instance, the next time a check comes, don't touch it. Don't look at it. Just keep talking to the girl you're talking to. Eventually, she will almost always bow to the social pressure herself, and pick up the check.

At that point, if you want to split the check, you can say, "What do I owe?" or, "How much is mine?" or, "What's the total? We can split down the middle."

The alternative is you pick up the check, look it over, and then hand it to her. Then take out your wallet, put down half (or however much), and tell her, "Here's $20 for my half."

Avoid staring at the money, or watching her as she takes her purse out, or doing anything that makes it obvious you're not comfortable / used to women paying, as you may not be if you're accustomed to footing the bill. Just talk to her normally, don't make it a big deal, and she likely won't either.

Chase

Rey's picture

Thanks for you informative reply. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Migz's picture

Funny that the only article that provokes complete indignation from women on this site is about not paying for women on dates.

Nothing about the myriads of social techniques to bring a girl home fast, not a whimper about the physical dominance, and not a single word in defense of nice guys who take things slow.

Very revealing. The only good reason to pay for a woman is because the date would be if the price was too far above her lifestyle level. Outside of that, you ladies have jobs and can take care of yourselves, we're not in the fifties anymore.

We don't pay for our male and female buddies even when we invite them. Why the anger at Chase? We don't have to buy your time. You're not wh***s, are you?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hey Migz,

Actually, there have been some push backs against some of the other articles -- the post "Is Seduction Wrong?" I wrote to address the first real piece of vitriol aimed at something I wrote on here, at, incidentally, a conversational technique called "baiting" which admittedly sounds kinda bad if you go just by the name. Probably should've named that one a little more eloquently.

I took to moderating comments after that incident. These days I'll let negative / anti-seduction / slightly ad hominem stuff through, IF it contributes to intelligent discussion or allows for a teaching point.

The ones that are pure hate, bitterness, and vitriol I just delete. They tend to be passersby who stumble on the site, get offended because they don't agree with what's being written, make one nasty comment, then leave, never to return. No sense posting comments like that, because they add nothing and only contribute to a more negative environment on here. There really aren't that many of those; I get one every couple of weeks and just can it.

Most of the comments from women on this post come with raised hackles, but they raise points worth addressing and otherwise contribute to the discussion, so I grant them the green light.

You do call attention to something interesting -- lots of women pushing back against the idea of men not paying. There's a lot more push back against that idea than anything else on here, for sure.

A friend recently shared an article with me about sexual economics -- I'll try to do a post on that soon, and on how women both work to uphold their own sexual market value, yet simultaneously often undermine it. Makes for interesting discussion, though perhaps not all that practical a topic from an "improving with women" standpoint.

Cheers,
Chase

Kevin 's picture

Migz,

GREAT observation! thank you

vicky's picture

Just thought I would add something to represent another story to the female population on this thread since it's awfully one sided. Age and geographics might play a factor in this, so I will say that I'm a woman in my early 20s, living in NYC. I would never, ever want, much less *expect* my date to pay. We always pay for ourselves, because we are there to enjoy our time together. Money should not be a factor in that. It almost would feel like I'm an escort girl if I accept a paid meal, as in he's literally paying for me to be there and giving him my attention (which isn't true, I'm there because I *want* to be there, not because I'm doing him a favor)

I'm definitely not a feminist by any means, but it is just common sense, and fairness to pick up my own tab. Even if I was asked out, I would not let my date pay; I accepted the date because I genuinely wanted to spend time him and get to know him as a person, not his wallet haha. If I ask someone out, the same deal apply, we pay for ourselves.

It is silly to prescribe a gender to this whole issue though. Regardless of gender, race, ability, if you're with someone else, romantically or platonic, just look after yourself, pay your tab and enjoy the other person's company, no strings attached.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hi Vicky, appreciate you dropping by and providing an alternate female perspective.

It's funny how much of this is about differing feelings among people, isn't it? Back in the days that I would at times pay for women, I had plenty of girls I went out with who refused to let me do so -- either because they didn't like feeling like a men would pay for them, or because they considered me a friend and didn't want to give me the wrong idea by letting me pay.

Other women are happy to let you pay no matter what position they see you filling in in their lives; their view is, the man pays, the woman is paid for, and that's the way it is.

I'd be curious about how much of this is due to raising (women from Latin America and Asia do seem to be vehemently in favor of men they view as potential friends or providers paying, whereas many American women seem to prefer going Dutch), and how much is due to demographics (like you note, being in NYC -- a city with +200,000 single women over single men, as opposed to, say, Los Angeles, which has about +60,000 single men over single women, if I remember my stats right; I saw an interesting study on how women at a college where men were a big minority expected far less from a man and engaged in sex a lot faster than women at a college where men were a big majority and women were the scarce resources).

I'd guess that demographics play the largest role, but there's an adjustment period when people change locations (e.g., a woman moving from California to New York still expects men to pay for her at first, but gradually realizes she's having a harder time meeting and keeping men than she did in LA, and starts adjusting her tactics). Pure speculation there, but based on the studies of those colleges I've seen (could probably dig them up if anyone's interested), I'd guess that'd be the case.

Cheers,
Chase

Omolara's picture

I agree. It depends mostly on demographics. I am Nigerian and here, it is totally unheard of for a girl to pay on the first date. Ever! Even if she was initially willing to sleep with you, she wouldn't solely for the reason that you didn't pay for the date. Nigerian guys expect this and act accordingly, the only issue being how cheap or expensive the date is. I think it stems from our culture. The host pays for everything. You go to a party u were invited for with absolutely no plans to pay for food/drinks. In fact the only few times I've heard of guests or females paying here is where both parties have lived in your world for a considerably long time.

If you were ever to visit Nigeria, I bet you wouldn't get ANY girls. (except perhaps for horny housewives...looool). You would definitely have to change your MO. :D

That said, I quite enjoyed the post and comments. Well done

Kevin's picture

Vicki,

You restore my hope in humanity. Thank you for being one of the few female voices advocating equality.

The guy is there to get to know the girl. Its so sad when the girl demands a drink for the honor of her company.

janis's picture

...then guys cant stop demanding endless grooming, haircuts , perfect nails, and wax jobs etc etc...

Anonymous's picture

...women can stop listening to guys (who *are* these guys?) demanding endless grooming, haircuts, perfect nails, etc. I'm a guy. I don't do this. I've never heard of guys doing this. I *have* heard of women wanting to do this for whatever reason. Is this about what men want or the pressure women feel put on them by 1) society and, 2) other women?

Anonymous's picture

"demanding"? Is that what men do to you? I honestly doubt any guy said they wouldnt go out with unless you got all that stuff done, you looked that way from the time they met you. I'm also almost 100% positive that it wasn't some guy that told you that you need to look and/or dress that way, you probably read it in some magazine and the article was probably written by another woman who had had plenty of experience and success in dating men. Much like this site. So in other words, you sound like a hypocrite.

Emily's picture

I just have another positive point for going on cheap dates: we're much more likely to pay for ourselves. If the man plans this big, fancy meal at a nice restaurant that I would NEVER have gone to normally because of the price tag then by all means, let him pay. He chose the spot. But if we're meeting at a cafe where I would normally come and pay for myself I'm much more inclined to do so because that's my habit and I can afford it.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Great point, Emily.

Not something I do, since I specifically want to avoid those kinds of places (they imply the wrong things... traditional dating, competing for the boyfriend position, etc.), but yeah, it's not terribly cool for a guy to invite a girl somewhere very pricey and then ask her to pay when she wasn't expecting it and maybe it costs her a noticeable chunk of her week's pay.

I'd say the one time it's all right if the guy clears it with the girl first. Like, "Hey, there's this restaurant I really, really dig -- amazing food, ambiance, service, everything -- and I'd love to show it to you, but admittedly it's kinda pricey, like $80 a meal... if you're cool with that, let me know, otherwise we can just hit up a cool little cafe nearby and have more of a casual night out."

Something like that might be all right if you're a guy and you want to take a girl somewhere expensive and not be footing the bill. Might be okay if she's a professional and making big bucks. But yeah, other than clearing it with her first, there's a certain social obligation I'd expect to inviting someone somewhere really expensive where the standard cultural expectation is that the man pays that makes startling her with the bill at the end of an expensive meal an unpleasant surprise, and downright discourteous and inconsiderate.

Before inviting people to expensive engagements, make sure they know they'll be expected to pay. Every time I've had a friend invite me to something expensive, and then asked me to fork over a lot of cash when I arrived, after I'd assumed they were going to get me in free, it was no good.

Like Emily says, just one more reason for keeping dates cheap -- so it's about you and her, instead of the meal, the restaurant, and the money.

Chase

M's picture

I'm wading on in here late in the game, but thought I'd add my thoughts.

I sent a guy that I was trying to have a casual fling with to this site, as he was making every mistake in the book and I couldn't stand him not listening to my feedback. I sent him to 'How to tease Girls' cos out of so much RUBBISH I read online from other mens sites, this site was on the money, and broke things down so people could learn. Kudos!

As for paying on dates, I agree with most of what Chase wrote, and I had this argument with the guy I sent here. I loathe fancy dates - they just make me tense and nervous. I don't want to have sex with someone after those kinds of dates as I'm just worn out from getting all dressed up, remembering all the manners, making conversation etc etc.
I'm a low-key lass, and I go looking for casual flings, not relationships. High stakes dates are STESSFULL.

I do agree with the premise that whoever asks for the date, pays. If a guy asked me out the and then expected me to pay I'd be shocked and would write him off. ESPECIALLY the first date. The guy I was with offered to buy me a drink on the first meeting. I said I'd go see what they had. He stayed siting and watching the TV. I paid for my own drink. No problems, but I did note it, and I didn't like it. No one likes a cheap date.

I slept with him anyway. Why? Cos I wanted to get laid. Sometimes, some women just want to get laid. Some of us aren't game playing Princesses who wanted to be pampered. I'm a red-blooded grown woman who isn't looking for a husband. I'd love a Martini, a good laugh, and some great sex. Simple.

However, everything else I agree with. The guy I sent here insisted he paid for everything (after that first drink...I think he expected me to report back from the bar and then he'd buy the drink. Weird). I found it hugely demeaning. I asked him out for a cheap and cheerful meal, and he insisted on paying and said it would always be like that. That puts me in the position of having to ASK HIM TO TAKE ME OUT. How demeaning is that?? I'm not gonna beg somone to take me
out. Geez.

Let me hold my own please. Don't ask me to fancy restaurants cos I simply can't afford them. Take me somewhere cheap but with great food. Let me buy an icecream afterward, or a drink or something. Let me be equal!!

So, I think the advice is sound, but has to be used carefully. I'd suggest erring on the side of social norms for the FIRST date, and have the guy pay (unless the girl did the asking). After that, let her pay when she offers. Don't you guys want a girl who isn't using you for money????

Totally agree with picnics, walks etc etc. Keep it about the girl...if she wants the fancy dates all the time, you then have an indication of who she is...does she like you, or your credit card??

ML's picture

I had a gf who sounded just like lisa and janis above. She is a korean girl (im korean born but a kiwi), but on the slightly crazy side admittedly (white guys serm to think asian girls are nice n sweet, well they are not). She told me that a korean guy took her out on a first date and asked to split the bill, she chucked money in his face and stormed off. Ouch! But she did say lateron that women will be only happy to pay for the guys if they 'like' the guy enough to do so. And that means he has to be a 'lover'. I do agree w chase, but his logic is slightly 'off'. If you can get the girl to pay then it means she likes you enough to do so and maybe she will even sleep w u, and you not paying reinforces that attraction. But not the other way around, do u jnow what i mean? Its how u do and what you do to attract her during ur date that determines whether she's happy to pay or not and her paying confirms her own attraction, but if you have screwed up ur date no amount of 'not paying' will fix that situation.

Panos's picture

Hi Chase
Well i find your articles a real treasure for me, as i had made mistakes on the past i try to fill them with good interactions.
I'm perfectly understand the above but i had stuck in you statement below

"Certainly no sex before Date #3, probably not before Date #5, and quite possibly not ever unless you're perfect through those first five dates"

I have read it quite sometimes and it actually means what it say..

I'm a bit confused as is it contrary abt the fact that i had read both primer which it includes the boyfriend dillema and the next one which describes to move fast in bed...

Even if i want something not temporarly i will strive to engage as fast as possible for sex.
There are 2 girls that i like so i'm not going to give them a boyfriend or a provider material too soon
Thats my mindset now..
Any inputs on this even if its of topic?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Howdy Panos,

All looks good, brother. Not sure what more you wanted input on -- sounds as though you've got the right idea: move fast, make things happen, don't come off as boyfriend material / provider material. Take care of business that way, and hopefully one (or both ;) of those two girls will be yours.

Cheers man,
Chase

chris's picture

When you said, "Certainly no sex before Date #3, probably not before Date #5" you were describing the outcome for guys that pay for the first date, thereby filling the 'provider role.'

I think Panos may have misinterpreted this as advice to withhold sex until date 3 or 5. Perhaps the page break prior to that sentence contributed to his confusion.

Anonymous's picture

Chase,

How do you react/proceed when your date pulls the I forgot to bring cash card?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Hey Anon,

I've only had this happen to me a handful of times. It's really a pretty shady thing for anybody to do, and it usually means the girl is trying to manipulate you (either to get free stuff, to get a "win," or something similarly crappy).

If it's before you've gotten whatever you're ordering, or you're just receiving it, my recommendation is just to shrug and say, "Oh really? Oh, that's okay -- we can just go for a walk then, no need to get expensive food," and then take her out of the restaurant or whatever it is and do something free. If she honestly likes you, she'll be fine with this; if she gets upset, it wasn't you she cared about -- it was the freebies she thought she was going to get.

If it's after you've already eaten (at a restaurant, for instance), you can either foot the bill and just eat the cost (and probably don't call her again, unless she seems genuinely apologetic and to sincerely be interested in your and isn't being manipulative), or, if you're getting a strong whiff of manipulation and really want to call her out, you can act surprised and tell her that, oh no, you forgot to bring your wallet too!

I pulled that last on a girl who was clearly trying to get money out of me once before. She grudgingly took out the purse she'd supposedly "forgotten," and paid for both of us (I'd have split the bill with her had she not pulled that charade). It was a thing of beauty.

Chase

Kevin 's picture

Nice, Chase!! I absolutely love it!

Zerbu's picture

Its just plain simple sense nowadays: You both pay, or whoever asks pays.

Guys, STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES, the more you do this, the more women will think its okay- when it isn't.

Guy's picture

Hey Chase,

Just discovered your blog, there's are a lot of interesting topic and point of views, good work!

I went to the same conclusion myself, so I was smiling when I read your post.

Now I have a tricky question for you: what would you do if a girl is really amazing but is genuinely broke? Would you invite her anyway, even several times if you can afford it? I used to be in this situation myself.

cheers,
Guy

Anonymous's picture

I live in a country in S/E Asia. In my county, guys always pay, and it is a protocol. If a guy does not pick up the tab, he is not considered to be a gentleman. Rather, girls would see him as a cheap guy. In our culture, women should be nurtured, so picking up the tab is one of the most important parts to start dating and having a relationship. In fact, good guys are responsible for all things and always take care of women financially, emotionally and physically. When they get married, the groom side always pays (unless the girls are richer). When they live together as a couple, men usually pay. However, individualism is not strong here, money belongs to both and "the concept of mine or yours" does not belong here. We are collectivists. We help each other. We support the poorer one. Sometimes, girls may help guys financially if girls are richer which is not common. I would say there is a very high chance here you would lose the girl if you don't pay for them. Girls will start to branch out because they want someone to take care of them and their family. So, I would like to add here that the value of picking up the check in some countries may be so strong that it is a must to do for guys.

Ridita's picture

I'm european and maybe a little old-fashioned. If someone "invite" me to a restaurant, I expect him to pay. I don't want a fancy restaurant, but if he can't pay me a drink, he looks like a cheap guy.
I think if you want a relationship with the woman, you should pay the bills at least the first times. It's a sign that you can take care of her and your future family.

Kevin's picture

..."He looks like a cheap guy."

"I think if you want a relationship with the woman, ...It's a sign that you can take care of her and your future family."

Rita, which is it? Is the problem that he looks like a cheap guy, or that he won't be able to provide for his future family?

In either case, the whole point of this was to STOP women from thinking of us men as providers and boyfriends so we can move faster toward intimacy.

Mark's picture

Apparently when a man doesn't pay, he's cheap, and when a woman doesn't pay, she's not. Women display the very behaviors that they claim to despise in men.

Am I the only one who is getting tired of the "pay for my meal to prove you are a provider" excuse? Are we freaking troglodytes? Besides, a homeless man could drop $20 on 2 dinners, even though he can't actually provide anything else.

I think what we are witnessing is that nature was right all along, and gender roles were not socially constructed. We have had over 40 years to turn women into men, and it hasn't worked. Even the most staunch feminists still cling to traditional gender roles. Especially if it means living an easier life.

Let's face it, most women are dependent, little girls.

R!'s picture

Women love to test men. That's how she gets you to chase her. A proper response to that comment would be to simply look off into space, or give her a cheeky smile. Any emotional reaction - anger, submissiveness, etc. is going to mean you fail the test.

Though, if she absolutely demands an explanation to why you won't pay, I wouldn't think that the date of yours would have actually been going anywhere before then.

s1lo's picture

lmfao tooo funny i agree in alot of ways with that comment.....dont get me wrong, there are some really mature ones,but!.....most of the ones ive met have the wrong viewpoint on alot(not to offend) ijs.

Anonymous's picture

It's a matter of the girls having the goods guys want. The average girls can get a man more easily than the average guy. Woman are more at risk by having casual non-committed relationships. Not all women are extreme feminists. Women will never be men and men will never be women. I think it's too simple to say that women want to be men. No, women want to be seen as just important with the understanding that differences will always be present because woman and men are different (biologically, psychologically, emotionally, life experiences) that can't ever be converged into one. Paying for a girl the first few times just let's her know you are not just trying to "hit it and quite it". If thats what she wants she'd actually get a really nice looking guy or guys who have nice packages. The average guy doesn't fall into this so showing interest is his best chance of getting to know a girl and allowing things to get intimate.

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