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I see a lot of guys starting out who devote themselves
to trying to
hook up with girls who are, to a more experienced eye, clearly just bad leads: they’re women who are
willing to continue to hang around a guy, and continue to let him hope
he has a chance with them (whether because they want the attention, or because
he is too blinded by hope to
pay attention to the clear signals they’re sending him).
The sad thing about distractions like this is that a girl like this will literally waste your time – you could be off meeting women who legitimately like you and find you attractive (and would very much like a roll in the hay with you), but instead you squander your entire outing on a woman who, for all practical purposes, really presents very little value in exchange for the time you spend on her.
Now, it’s all well and good for you to make female friends and get to know women better, and, particularly as a beginner-to-intermediate, you should absolutely be doing this (in particular, make friends with the demographics of women you’d most like to date, so you can empathize with and relate to these sorts of women more easily).
However, one thing you should not be doing is confusing women who have no intention of shacking up with you for women worth your persistence and sticking around for.
That in mind, here are fifteen (15) signs a girl will waste your time... and that you should probably cut bait and move onto the next girl.
Comments
HA HA !!
Great Post. Chase - Take A Bow.
I especially love the "She’s Done with the Hook Up Scene”
Man O man. Do I run into this one MORE THAN ANY OTHER on the list ? I do online dating and this one out of all the others RUNS HEAVY in online dating. Plus I'm 35 and women this age have ridden the cock carousel in the 20's. So they go online dating and try to re-invent themselves
I've come to realise that when a woman says that what she's really saying is
"I’m sick of dating guys who make me so hot that I practically want to rip my clothes off for them. I’m sick of spreading my legs and being a complete sl*t, now I just want to settle down with a sperm donor, wallet and doormat. I’m ready for a nice guy simp, who treats me well, even though he’s not all that sexually attractive to me.”
Done with All of That
Charlie-
That about sums it up, yeah!
Chase
Interesting article again
You are really good at breaking down the dynamics and seeing the underlying cause and effect. I've been waiting for an article like this to come along because I had a question. I'm generally known for being difficult to read (my personality type), non-reactive, poker faced etc. Over the last 2/3 years I've had similar scenarios repeat:
1. Enter a social situation with presence or convey social value, do something high value (e.g. give a good speech), or rock up looking fit and well built.
2. Get body language responses from women - sitting up straight, hair twirling, stammering etc.
3. Have a general shoot-the-breeze style conversation. No romantic intent on my part. I can kind of be aloof and give very little away. Tone of the interaction is usually very detached from my end, with a ‘hey, that’s great, good luck with that’ kind of vibe to the conversation, like the barista you kind of know at your local coffee shop told you a bit of good news from their personal life.
4. Within a few minutes conversation they slot in references to a boyfriend: one time, the woman just blurted out, “I have a boyfriend” within about 30 seconds; others are more subtle but drop the reference in nonetheless.
5. I don’t really acknowledge it and continue the conversation. Inevitably (5/6 times I can think of now), whether instantly or over the course of weeks the try to lure me to follow them – ¾ of these times to join a social situation where I know the boyfriend will be. Other times, they give me their contact details and try to make me chase them around (usually in front of their friends or beta orbiters). I usually non-sequitir or politely decline. One time, a woman working at my local cafe, who had given me a few smiles occasionally but who I never talked to in months going to the coffee shop (i go to unwind from work) actually opened me, I responded politely and got 2 references to a boyfriend in about a minute.
To be clear, I’ve shown no interest and am not engaging in try-hard alpha behaviour,. They're usually in the 6-8 range. Why do women do this?
It sounds like auto rejection
It sounds like auto rejection.
Even though you go indirect, the fact that you as a man open her tells her you are somewhat sexually interested at least at first sight. Your smoothness tells her that you know what you are doing, and that you could likely get her if you really wanted.
So she concludes she isn`t good enough for you and preserves her positive self image by introducing a face saving reason upfront for the expected result, that you two wont get together.
You can prevent this by increasing attainability.
Later on she trys to leverage your higher social value to increase her own, when around her boyfriend or orbiters.
intereesting thoughts..
you talk about leveraging social value - what could a possible reason for doing this in the case of boyfriends?
Her own social value is
Her own social value is extremely important for a woman. A lot of strange manuvers they do revolve around preserving or improving their own social value.
The phenomenon you ask about is called Preselection. It`s typicaly something PUAs use, but works for anybody.
Social Value?
This is claptrap. If a woman cares more about her "social value" than she cares about being with you, she is already wasting your time. The end.
Kneejerk "I Have a Boyfriend" Responses
Blogster-
Yep, like Runnings notes, it’s an auto-rejection response. Good thoughts from him too on them still being open to using you to up their social reputation value.
Women don’t just use “I have a boyfriend” to wave off men. They also use it to inflate their own value: “See? Men want me. I’m already off the market, actually. So even if you DID want me, I’m not, like, available or anything. Just thought I’d throw that out there.”
When she blurts it out like that, she’s not even doing it for your benefit. She’s doing it for her own sense of self: “Wow, he’s sexy. I don’t think he’s even interested in me. Well, he couldn’t be, I have a boyfriend. Hey mister, I got a boyfriend! Whew, he knows I’m off limits now. I feel relieved.” She’s essentially excusing herself from the game and taking pressure off herself. Now she doesn’t need to compete for you any more, but it’s not because she’s giving up – she’s let you know she’s off the market, and that’s why she isn’t trying to get you (that’s her internal reasoning, anyway).
Just chuckle to yourself when you see this. She just felt too intimidated by you and had to drop out of the running.
At the same time, it is a sign you can up your attainability and come across warmer and friendlier… if you want these sorts of women, anyway.
Chase
That seems to be my sticking point
Great article, but also a bit soul destroying. I get this kind of comments a lot. That raises the question if I'm attractive at all. Especially the comment "I'm kind of seeing somebody" and if you persist, the only thing you get is a flaky number. Not gonna lie, its a damn grind right now.
But I still have a positive outlook. Inch by inch I'll get there.
Kind of Seeing Someone Right Now
Christiano-
Yeah, those suck. I got them a lot when I started out. You still get them sometimes anyway when you get better if you push the envelope with women who clearly aren’t into you. You just laugh and go, “Ha, okay. Right. Well, it was worth a shot,” give her a wink, and make your exit. Onto the next girl.
Just work on fundamentals and keep working on your game. You’ll get this down to where you don’t usually get it. Eventually you’ll reach the point where you only get it if you’re pushing things with women you can already tell aren’t into you, so it stops being unexpected. At that point, it’s “Yeah, I figured she’d say something like that if I pushed it with her, but I wanted to test and be sure.”
Chase
Good stuff. Especially party
Good stuff. Especially party mode, big flirt, and not complying are classics that take a while to see the pattern, when you never heard about it before.
Regarding party mode, one may add, that social interaction is pretty much as sexual for a women, as physical sex. (Just look at female porn, aka romance novels.)
So when you approach her during this state it might be compareable to interrupting a man while he is in the midst of groupsex with 5 to 10 women.
Just my 2 cents of speculation to add to the stack of Dollars. :-)
Best wishes
Party Mode
Runnings-
That is a wonderful insight.
I actually thought you were going somewhere else with the comment at first.
Thought you were going to say approach her while she’s partying and you miss out on the social interaction that sucks her in so much.
But your point is also well-noted – when she’s going that nuts in party mode, she does not WANT to be interrupted… hard for men to ‘get’ that.
I remember a comedian talking about it a long time ago (might’ve been Jim Gaffigan). He commented that “You never see men go out and say ‘I just wanna DANCE!’” and then moved his hands up and down his body and tossed his head back like women sometimes do in clubs. And he talked about it how men think women don’t really mean it and they mostly want to meet men but no, they actually mean it, they really do want to ‘just dance’. Pretty funny. But dead on accurate. I don’t think most men can experience that outside of maybe being on party drugs or something similar.
Chase
Haha this article is
Haha this article is legendary
Hey chase
Hey chase
I dont think anyones asked this but what are the components that make up social skills. For instance one would be social calibration but what would the others be
Components of Social Skills
Boyo-
Oh man, that's a broad topic!
That's like asking what constitutes edible foodstuffs. Anything you can put in your mouth that contains nutrients and doesn't kill you, basically.
Social skills are anything that allow you to navigate social situations and arrive at optimal results for yourself and, ideally, the other people you interact with as well.
That may be your sense of humor, your sense of timing, your ability to hold a conversation, emotional tuning, empathy, mental model of how people react and what other people want, ability to think several moves ahead in terms of social interactions, understanding of rules like the Law of Least Effort, learned responses to common social situations (what do you do when someone interrupts you?), instincts for dealing with novel social situations (you're in a car on your way to an after party with a new acquaintance and two girls when the driver crashes. Do you stick around with this new guy while he waits for the tow truck, or hail a cab, take the two girls, and continue to the after party?), etc.
Basically, anything that creates any ripple in your social interactions with others qualifies as a "social skill" of some form or other, to my mind. That could be quite a list of things!
Chase
Chase,
Chase,
All your posts on this site are truly knowledgeable and informative, but this should be in the Top 5 must reads on this site!
I've been looking for signs to look out for with girls who will just outright waste a guy's time and I've gotta say, I cant believe i've missed some of the more blatant signs! The "i'm really busy right now" is one that I missed a lot in the past, but anytime a girl messages me with that kind of non-sense I just drop them immediately.
A girl that asks me to add them on facebook or follow them on instagram, instead of just giving me their number is just laughable and I usually just call them out on it. At that point I realize things wont be going further at all since I just loose all interest.
Time wasting girls are just demoralizing (whether you're a beginner, intermediate, or advanced in my opinion), but recognizing the signs of girls who have a habit of doing this can be a big boost.
First phone call
Hey Chase,
Great post on distractors !
I remember Alek and you talked about giving girls we meet a phone call the next day of meeting her.
But your post was back in 2011 before you said "Use text for logistics" in "Tactics Tuesday: Call her if texts don't pan out".
It sounds like first phone call happens after icebreaker text.
Is it still something you advocate now?
Maybe this is what I need for my flakey numbers...
Lawliet
Phone Call vs. Text
Hey Lawliet,
Great question - Should you call her or text her instead? A difficult conundrum that most men will face on the path to mastering seduction. Chase's book gives valuable, in-depth and very thorough advice on this topic (Especially in regards to solving the "flakey numbers" issue you're having. It was a complete game changer for me).
Per Chase's book "How To Make Girls Chase", Chase advocates using texting over calling for several reasons:
First off, "texts are short, easy to send and low investment (unlike phone calls which can make a woman feel a lot of pressure to respond to). With text messaging, she can take her time to respond to you, think her answers through, and read and respond at her leisure. Texting is more flexible than phone calls are, both timewise and communicationwise. You can text a girl while she’s at work, in school, out partying at night, running errands during the day. You can text her to tell her about a great idea you had or a delicious meal you just ate, things that would usually be silly to make a phone call over".
To answer your question to Chase about the icebreaker - "Is it still something you advocate now?" -
Per the book:
"Personally, while I was formerly a huge proponent of phone calls over
texts, I don’t even use phone calls anymore. I haven’t actually called a
girl in ages. I do everything via text now." - Chase
Hope that helps!
Re: First Phone call
Sorry for the confusion.
I mean whether we should do the first phone call or not after the icebreaker text.
As Chase says in his "First Phone call" post, making the call will consolidate a girl who's unsure of you and turn her around when you call the next day
But that post is old. And if you take a look at the sequence in Panning out article, he doesn't put a phone call after icebreaker.
So would first phone call be a thing to do just to ensure those who are on the fence with you?
Lawliet
Call the Next Day?
Lawliet-
Like Dustin notes, I never use calls the next day really anymore.
THAT SAID, if you think you flubbed it up with her in the interaction and she’ll be chilly to you, it may be worth doing.
Or if you want to practice / improve your phone game, it’s a perfectly fine time to do it.
So long as your initial interaction went well, you should be fine with text. You can still use calls if you want to, though. And if you did poorly, it can be worth trying. If you had a super quick number close (e.g., a 2-minute number close), you may need phone calls to build a connection before she will see you.
Chase
Dumb guy
Hey Chase,
Funny you mentioning this, the dumb guy approach. Could you elaborate on that?
An article would be great!
It reminds me of...
Also,
Re: Sexual compliment opening vs. Other direct
First for low value, other for you higher value than her so she goes from "Is this really happening?! No way, he's joking right?" to "Oh it must be fate!"
But how do you know your perceived value in her perspective before approaching?
Assuming you use it as opener and since value is subjective in HER eyes, not OURS.
Or in other situations where it's not the first thing we say, how do you test the waters so you know which route to go?
Re: Joking to 2 min number grab
Speaking of "Are you joking?"
Weird...I had a girl who said, "Wait, this is a prank right?"
Me: No, I'm serious
Her: Uh...I have a boyfriend
Me: (one second pause)
Her: I'm not kidding
Wonder if there's more meaning behind that response, a sign ?
Lawliet
Perceived Value
Hey Lawliet,
In regards to your question - "how do you know your perceived value in her perspective before approaching? Assuming you use it as opener and since value is subjective in HER eyes, not OURS"
Great question! When it comes to value - perception is key! I think Chase's article on Value and Attraction helps in distinguishing between actual value and shown value, and exactly how to use it.
Ultimately, YOU are the one who chooses how she perceives your value (She'll judge your value based upon whatever aspect of yourself you want her to see). Once you have your fundamentals down pat, you'll have the power to calibrate your perceived value accordingly. And that's the beautiful thing - high value or low value, you get to choose, not her!
Fundamentals
Hey Dustin,
Thanks for your quotes and comments! Appreciate it bro!
However, fundamentals are subjective.
Fundamentals could be top notch for one girl but only ok with another, says Chase.
I can't remember which article right now but I'll look for it.
Then the question is, How do we know our perceived value in her eyes and calibrate our opening?
Re: Chase's approaching habit
Chase, do you approach girls out of the blue or only girls who give you approach signals?
http://www.girlschase.com/content/making-approach-picking-and-choosing-g...
Lawliet
Calibration
Lawliet-
Dustin’s right, it’s down to fundamentals. While different women value different things differently, a high value guy is a high value guy is a high value guy. You can’t calibrate beyond that… if she gives you some signs, like how she reacts after looking at you, you can calibrate to that, but otherwise you go in knowing how women like her typically receive you, and you calibrate to that.
If a girl’s asking you if you’re joking when you go for a number close, you need to work on your fundamentals and your delivery. Something is off if she thinks it’s not real.
As for me approaching, I mainly looking for approach invitations these days, but I also generate them, and I’m pretty good at that. If I’m doing warm-up approaches I don’t worry about this however. I recommend beginners not look for approach invitations though – your instincts will not be that good and you’ll mostly use this as an excuse to not approach (when you SHOULD approach).
Chase
Flirty girls
Hi Chase,
Great article as usual! :)
I have seen you mention that we need to avoid "Flirty girls" like the plague, but I would like to know if its actually possible to turn the tables in this situation. I have observed that these girls do things with a sense of dominance as you have mentioned, but is it possible to out dominate them somehow and win in this situation?(or would we even have to out dominate? i'm guessing same team game would be a good solution?)
Would love to get your thoughts on this one!
Getting Flirty Girls
Hawk-
You sure can turn it around (sometimes); see the article on it:
The Paradox of the Flirty Girl
Zip down to "What Do You Do When She Flirts with You?"
The big mistake men make here is they know some women won't react well to them asking for compliance, so they don't ask for it at all out of fear of being rejected. Ultimately that screens out the women who ARE interested in them (who get tired of things not going anywhere, and leave), and screens in the women who are NOT interested in them (who are perfectly happy flirting back and forth and never having the guy push for more)... that's the one major pitfall to watch out for.
So long as you're moving things forward, and she's complying, you're in good shape.
Chase
The Hmmm?
That one makes me laugh every single time. It's as if you should be so thankful to have even gotten her to roll an eyeball your way.
Would you say this is childish to walk away chuckling (it's genuine) or is it the equivalent to the smile eyebrow-shrug?
AND
Does cutting the cord with girls like this ever cause them to chase or are these strictly just wastes of times?
Re: The Hmmm?
ST-
Nope, nothing childish about leaving with a chuckle.
I’ve done plenty of, “Haha, never mind,” with women like this but never had them chase. Occasionally it might get me a few sly looks later, but a little extra interest is about the most you can expect.
I think the reason “dumb guy” works is because she just assumes the disrespect / superiority in her response went over your head, cuz ur dumb, so you don’t take the self-respect hit a more savvy man would be expected to take.
One other strategy you might take if you don’t like dumb guy would be to just tell her, “No, no, it’s okay, I can see you’re really busy, I’d only be interrupting you,” and try to get her to pry it out of you, “No, it’s fine, what is it?” “No, no, I don’t want to distract you from your studies.” “No, really, what?” “Well, okay… I blah blah.” I’ve had that now and again but you’ve got to nail the delivery. And it doesn’t work unless she pries it out of you.
Chase
2 cents on Facebook
Solid article.
Well, that's like the minimum level of Chase, never goes below "solid" :).
One part I don't fully agree with, though...
Yeah, you probably guessed it.. :).
Facebook :).
Just last week I had sex with a girl after I had taken the FB from, actually wrote a LR about it (she had less than 200 friends, no posts at all, few pics up, was strongly into me... Obvious she wasn't looking for followers there) and while I agree with you many times it goes down to what you describe.. There are also times it's a legit way to save on texts/calls and/or curiosity to know you better and check your pics.
I mean, it's still very worth a shot.
And that's without even considering it's easy to reconnect if one of you travels around where the other is staying.
By the way, these days I believe women mostly collect followers on Instagram much more so than FB.
It's interesting you know that you give FB no chances while are willing to give a pass to "my phone is broken" when if you think about it.. When was your phone broken last?
And how long did it take you to replace it?
Just 2 cents on the Facebook, and great to see you writing articles again :).
Phones & Facebook
Lucifer-
Eh, you know girls. They break / lose their phones at least once a year. You figure the average girl is without a phone 1 out of 52 weeks of the year, do enough approaching, and you’re going to run into a fair few women who are phone-less or whose phones are in the phone repair shop having frappuccino or macchiato vacuumed out of them.
Yeah, if you can get nothing else but Facebook’s an option and you think she’s legit about you, go ahead and take it. Exceptions for everything… no rules are hard and fast in the dating game.
Chase
yep
LOL yeah that's also true, may many instances a girl took out her phone to show a screen so broken it was barely working or you could barely see anything.
I must concur that Facebook
I must concur that Facebook is a valid way to connect with girls. I tend to go only for Facebook friending and not phone numbers for EVERY new social contact, including girls. In one case, I only got a girl's number after we'd already hooked up a few times.
A woman I used to date.
Hello Chase,
I really appreciate your article, it opens up my eyes into realization of women I've dated in the past. I have a quick question for you, I was casually dating a beautiful gal for like four months. But to further explain things, we actually started hooking up and then it lead to casually dating. She told me straight up by the second month she wanted something serious, she wanted a relationship she wanted the title of being my girlfriend... I couldn't comply with her proposal, I didn't know her that well to jump into something serious... All I knew is that I have always had a crush on her from a far. So she was on board to casually date until she got over me (it hurts) because I was falling for her. One problem with me is that I easily get attached to women that show me affection and care. I should stop wearing my heart on my sleeve, this woman also had big red flags that I didn't notice in the beginning because I was so mesmerized by her sublime looks deep down she's a sweetheart. She has daddy issues, she was in a abusive and toxic past relationship and she loves to drink a lot!
I want to try and work things out with her but she is ignoring me now. She's "ghosting" me (have you heard of that term?) I realize that nice guys finish last. I also realized that she wanted to date me right away to fill in a void. I hope to hear from you soon, I would really appreciate it take care of yourself.
Regards,
J.L.
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