Note from Chase: this is a guest post from Sarah Williams of Wingman Magazine. In this article, Sarah shares the features in gay men that women find so alluring, and why women keep gay men in their lives and around them. If you haven’t spent much time in gay bars, you might be surprised how cute and sexually available the women who hang around gay men can be; if you’d like a peephole into why this is, this article’s a solid primer on the subject. Take it away, Sarah.
Imagine the scene: a bar, a pretty girl or even a group of good looking girls, all hanging out with just one guy in their circle. He doesn’t seem to be a Dan Bilzerian playboy type either. He’s just their friend, laughing and having a great time with all of them. This lucky guy is simply surrounded by hot females, who all get along very well with him, instead of hanging out with a bunch of dudes talking about football. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything special, but the most beautiful chicks stick to him like bees to a honeycomb... They all have so much fun together! He treats the presence of beautiful girls around him as a naturally comfortable situation. Why couldn’t that be you who so easily enters and enjoys a group of beautiful girls without being completely awkward?
There is one major different between you and him – you’re not gay.
You’ve probably seen at least one pretty girl or even a group of pretty girls laughing and having fun with a gay guy. I personally love to hang out with gay guys even though I’m looking for straight men. As a single woman who lives in a big city, I have quite a bit of choice with whom I hang out with. I love going out with my girlfriends, and I’m friends with guys both at work and outside of work, but most of my very best male friends are gay! And I’m definitely not the only female who appreciates their company…
What makes gay guys so special that women love to hang out with them? What makes so many females choose gay guys as their best friends?
The answer is more complex than just sexual orientation. It touches on certain common characteristics and typical behaviors gay guys display towards women. When it comes to conquering women’s hearts, straight guys could learn a lot from gay guys.
Comments
LOL
Chase, your blog is usually filled with arguably the most insightful and actionable content on all of the internet. This piece is bloated with stereotypes and lacks anything of substance.
It's probably a joke from
It's probably a joke from Chase & company. Like that one article on April Fools Day, testing our game w/an woman's article to show how poorly they see the world through a man's eyes and dick. Good one Chase, had me fooled pretty good! (If this isn't a joke, then I got nothing else to say but shake my head in silent disappointment)
..
Theres no game here lol. Gay guys behave like nice guys, the way she is describing them. I'd stick to taking advice from the writers of girlschase
Feedback
Hey Anon,
Thanks for the feedback, I'll let Chase know.
Just Dave
Retort
Well this is interesting. Not sure if the advice in this article is the path you should want to go, unless your goal is reactions over results with women, that is.
Be in touch with your feminine side, yes, but don't be a bitch and brown-nose to anyone -- especially on the basis that they have a vagina and expect it from you. This article seems to stand on the false premise that all women are inherently more valuable than men by virtue of... vagina? I couldn't tell you.
Because of that, we can see that this article assumes low-value men to be its audience. Why? It's certainly not intentional. It's simply because, when girls give guys advice about how to get girls, they will almost invariably advise you to let them be the dominant party. This is their logic talking -- it is not really what they really want though. You have to see through that.
This article is no exception to the general advice women give of "if you submit to us, the relationship will be great!". But of course, that's not the path to a healthy relationship. And there are plenty of articles on this site that support that claim.
Getting more into the grit of it:
Women like gay men because they are willing to be treated like a commodity in exchange for a pat on the head -- like a puppy.
Everything else the author talks about is symptomatic of that initial submission and lack of characterological integrity. Is it a good trade off for both parties? Certainly it can be nice for the women. What about the (socially) gay men? Let's look at an example from this post:
Notice, for example, how when the author's gay friend told her he loved her that "it made her day." Know what made my day today? A fucking egg salad sandwich. Talk about valuing the relationship highly, lol!
So, what is gay? This article seems to be focused on the popular conception of gay -- not only a man who likes sleeping with men, but who also identifies with a certain subculture type -- like goth or emo (though, it's interesting to point out that by blending the two together, socially gay men -- the type discussed in this article -- can justify their immaturity. I must be clear here: there is a world of difference between a sexually gay man and a socially gay man. One is a member of a particular high-school-esche subculture, the other is simply an expression of attraction to other men, and NOT the predominant character trait of the person. It's not something to get so stuck up on -- that only leads to a highly reduced, reactionary being.
Yes, the fundamental characteristic of this type of person is immaturity; where members seek individuation through conformity and submission.
Socially gay men often choose that path (yes choose. One chooses to be socially gay, while being attracted to other men is outside your control -- though if I've learned anything in my studies and personal experiences it's that we all are are attracted to everything and everyone anyway, it's just a matter of personal preference and how we see ourselves. Some of those ways we choose, some are forced upon us with or without our conscious knowledge thereof) they typically feel insecure with themselves, and they see acting that way as a way for them to be cool. However, the trade-off of fitting in (read: submission) is that you give up most of your integrity and ability to mature. Why? Because all the sudden it is alright to act like a child again. It's a back door if you fail to mature (no pun intended) that clenches down on you and keeps you inside the asshole of immaturity.
Gay and straight are both bad terms to describe people's sexuality with anyway. They both inaccurately connote modes of sexuality, and they're tied with a lot of silly stereotypes, like the ones expressed with such earnestness in this article.
-Reao
P.S. Does anyone else get the vibe that the author of this post thinks her audience are retarded cavemen?
That's very true; I have gay
That's very true; I have gay friends who are more masculine/dominant/alpha than probably any PUA has ever been. You would not know at all unless you knew them personally. It's the "socially gay" people that I can't stand because of their obnoxious high voices, effeminate gestures and shrieky way of interacting with other people. I'm pretty sure some of them are actually straight and just playing that awful character for validation.
I have no idea why a woman was allowed to submit an article to this website, or anywhere in the Manosphere; they are completely incapable of giving men dating advice which benefits men, and mostly because they constantly lie to themselves about what they want and what makes them happy. Without the ability to honestly examine oneself, there is no room for advice and I have yet to ever see or hear a woman giving honest dating advice.
Ironically, if you're in the Secret Society, they will giggle and blush when you say things they know are true and that work--but they will never, ever verbalize or acknowledge these things of their own volition. Especially not to a group of random men, that would completely defeat the purpose of having a Secret Society in the first place.
Red Pill / fight club - secret society
Man, that secret society thing sounds a lot like the "red pill" and the "fight club" thing that was going strong and Chase made an article of :).
Good Article
Very solid article, there are definitely things to be learned from gay people (male and female). It's nice to see someone ignoring the archaic stigma against them and growing as a person instead, which is pretty much the opposite of what bigotry does for you. Also, I can't deny that it's nice to see an article written by a woman on Girls Chase. There's plenty to learn about dating from male seducers and the people they pursue.
Because they're just like
Because they're just like women, except trustworthy.
Well, and they are sexually
Well, and they are sexually liberated!
Fair point. The Secret
Fair point.
The Secret Society is composed of:
1. All women
2. Most gay men
3. Players/Seducers (small percentage of straight men)
Some of the advice above is
Some of the advice above is a'ight but the rest: what straight men can learn from gays if off key. Sounds like your typical "be yourself", "be sensitive to her needs", and attentive crap that doesn't work in the real world. Yeah, it's cool to spare some emotion every now and then but to follow most of the above is ludicrous and counters some of the fine advice given to us by Chase & company. I'm not hating on a female writer but a woman's rationale on how men date and attract women will be always somewhat biased to her experience with men. Not always accurate and sometimes off if a man does apply what is advised, but other than that its a decent view into how gays operate and how their minds work.
Here's some more:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/gay-boyfriend/
@ Drexel Scott (towards the bottom):
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/secrets/
Two Contradictory Interpretations
While reading this article, two different interpretations came up to my mind:
1) Men successful with women are men in contact with their feminine side. All classic seducers of the past were very much in contact with their yin side (Don Juan, Cassanova etc)
2) Men, according to the author, seem to be a source of free validation to women. Opening doors, lighting cigarettes etc are all in the black list for ANY serious dating advice addressed to men and are clear behaviors of old-fashioned supplication.
My effort to synthesize:
While women seem to make all kinds of intermediate choices with all kinds of men, when asked about how a man should be with women, they respond with an idealized image in their minds. They don't image an average Joe opening doors for them; they imagine top-skill/top-fundamentals men doing it. Who in their right mind would say that George Clooney is supplicating to a woman because he opened a door for her? None. Why? Because when he does it, it seems effortless, genuine, and non-reactive.
Bottom line: it is not the "what", but the "how" and "who" that matters. If you are beginner or lower intermediate in terms of fundamentals and skill with women, avoid anything that MIGHT be interpreted as supplication. If you honed your fundamentals and skill to excellence, you can still do the "gay" things and not only get away with it, but also add another flavor to your charm.
Good Suggestions
Hey Sam2,
This is definitely very beneficial and helpful information to beginners. Avoiding supplication will definitely lead to higher results with women. Thanks for the very good break down of the information.
Take care,
Just Dave
Have to agree with the commenters
Most of this advice may be well-intentioned, but it is antagonistic to the philosophy presented on this website. Things like being attentive or appreciating her personality isn't useful knowledge. I can imagine a novice or a man who has just started his seduction career being confused by this when Chase stresses the importance of NOT following mainstream advice.
I wouldn't say the reaction this article has caused is because a woman is displaying her view. Rather it is the quality of her writing that is at a level, we (as readers) are not accustomed to. I feel this is something I would read on a social media led, mass-opinion orientated site like Buzzfeed, not GirlsChase.
Comment on Article
Hey fellas,
Quick comment on why we published this one. When Sarah floated the idea, the concept was for a "stuff we (girls) like about gay guys"-type piece covering a topic we haven't explored on here before - so potentially something quite fresh and interesting. And I do think she has good points in that part of it (the attentiveness and gentlemanliness in particular - though I wished she'd gone into more detail about how gay men typically use this attentiveness and gentlemanliness in a very dominant "I'm in charge, you just sit back and I will lead the show, honey" way).
I missed the little "what guys should do" part at the end while skimming it in review, and yeah, it's pretty fluffy; good core message but not terribly useful unless you already know how to apply these lessons, in which case you probably don't need to read about them. Probably should've kicked it back and asked her to revise or remove that part when I went through the whole thing prior to publication; as it stands, it unfortunately reinforces the advisement that you not take dating advice from women.
(also, I kinda wish Sarah talked about how often gay guys often hook up with their female friends, because that would've made for a really post!)
Chase
Chase wrote:(also, I kinda
Chase wrote:
(also, I kinda wish Sarah talked about how often gay guys often hook up with their female friends, because that would've made for a really post!)
I can do that. If there is one man on the board who knows a lot about gays it is me. I have been seducing women in gaybars for quite a while.I have seen it all, women sucking off their gaymates, women fucking me in the same bed as their gayfriends is fucking their catch, straight married men fucking young gays ... and the worst one...
THE GIRL HALVOR JANNICKE BANGED who wanted to become a dude in order to fuck gaymen. I have seen it all.
Shoot me an email and consider it done.
Alek
Article on Gay Guys
Alek-
You mean, take time out of my super-compressed schedule in London where I'm trying to juggle a million different balls at once and get all my work done and still see the city to sit down and write you an email to something I can just as easily respond to this comment in the affirmative about right here on the site?
Done! The email is sent. Can't wait to read the article.
Chase
Thought you were getting soft
Thought you were getting soft on us there Chase... Thank god this ain't the case, how about no more girl written articles for a while. I'm still nursing this pain in my stomach after reading mainstream dating advice I usually find on Yahoo. I need a hot shower and cold dose of your brilliant insight into women to wake me from this shitty slumber of a week.
Fail
Damn, a million balls is a lot. LOL speaking of gay.
Chase...in London?
Chase, are you in London on business? Or also practising game?
You'd be a king if you managed to day game a girl on Oxford Street or the tube into a instant date....from my experience/own feelings, Londoners will do everything to avoid being diverted from where they are heading.
Also, regarding the comments in this article, the person who mentioned socially gay vs sexually gay is spot on. This article plays on the stereotypes and talks mainly about socially gay people. I think a lot can be learned, to an extent from sexually gay people, and bisexuals especially. As Chase wrote once before, a lot of naturals are bisexual.
Also, I know quite a camp guy, who I was sure was gay, but is actually one of the most successful guys with women out of his friends. I;ve never been able to pin point why but I think part of it is not coming off as threatening, being overtly flirty and getting away with it, and being a very sexual guy.
Yeah that would be
Yeah that would be interesting but please take care of not making that article another cliche about gays hooking up with everything that's got a hole.
There's one simple truth about "seeing it all in gay clubs": you "see it all" in a very peculiar scenario -the tip of the iceberg- and you infer all the rest.
A bit like saying "I know everything about human beings because I've been going at raves all the times".
I for one live in the gay district of the most gay city in Europe and more than once talked to some gay gay who would never live here as they found the "most sexually open" gay clubs disgusting..
Why this article is bad.
I was pretty interested when I saw this article. Interested enough to take some time out of my work and applying to grad school to take a look.
I was really let down. And it isn't because it is written by a woman. I personally think that a girl writing dating advice isn't bad. In fact, I've seen it done very well. Male dating advice doesn't have to be a "boys club" or a "manosphere". It is more difficult for people to give dating advice to the opposite gender. For example, I tell girls to just go for the guy and have sex with him which isn't the best advice for a girl who wants a relationship. The same goes for the gentleman advice in this article. Well meaning, but misplaced. Sarah, it doesn't really seem like you considered this from a guy's perspective, only what you'd want your ideal guy to be.
Secondly, this reads more like a buzzfeed or GQ article (which I suspect a of of people come here to avoid). What makes GC different is that it breaks down things to a basic level. This article barely skims the surface. Where another article here might tell you how to be attentive by using eye contact, sitting with your back to the crowd to only look at her and letting her do the talking, this article simply says, "Pay more attention to her"
That was my frustration with other sites in the past. When you don't know all of the social cues or HOW to show that you are paying more attention to her, general tips don't really help. A lot of guys want to be able to pay attention to a girl, they just don't understand how. I didn't until I saw this site. I really wish this article went more in depth on the deeper parts of what made gay guys special, not just the things on the surface. I did like how you linked to the deep dive article.
Thirdly, I disagree with some of the advice. While I'm sure it would make a girl feel special that a guy loves her without sex, I don't want that kind of a relationship with a girl I date. I want my girl to understand that physical attraction is a part of our relationship and if that isn't there, then I'm going to leave. I can love a girl's personality, but ultimately, this site isn't about appreciating a girl's personality. Its about getting in her pants.
While broadening my horizons is great, I'm not going to do yoga with my girl. I see too many guys out there who are feminized by their girlfriends. I just saw some poor sap who got squeezed into a Micky mouse costume for Halloween. Now more than ever, boyfriends are becoming Bae's (I HATE that word) and husbands are becoming hubbys. Forget that nonsense. I'd rather be single and alone than be shown off pet poodle with a bow in my hair like I'm my girl's accessory. While those guys might be safe and be in a relationship, they aren't the guys who make girls wet. Could you see Don Draper, Damon Salvatore, or James Bond doing yoga? Hell no. I refuse to let my girl see me as anything less than a sexy man because the second she starts taking me out for mani pedis is the second her eyes go from me to the guy across the street.
I happen to love gay guys as well. They're honest, they're funny, and they encourage their girl friends to have sex with me. They also can provide a girl with a male gal pal she can have all those things with that you listed in the article. But make no mistake, I'm not going to take that role. Because no matter how much emotional support and attention a girl needs, she still wants and needs a powerful sexy man to sweep them off their feet, and give them sexual satisfaction. I'm not trying to attack you Sarah, I just disagree with your points and I disagree with how much fluff is in this article.
V
duh
well duh.... guys you shouldn't take dating advice from women!!
Fashion: BIG Differences between straight and gay men
I won't go on to discuss anything in this article apart from saying it sounds nice guyish. I read all the comments above and basically everyone agrees that this article was disappointing.
Sorry about that Sarah Williams. Better luck next time. I only wish this article went more in depth and spoke about fashion more in depth.
One thing I have always been fearful of is fashion and dressing well. Men have a stereotype thing when it comes to fashion. " Only women should take fashion seriously. Men who dress well must be gay".
And to a point that is true, most time it's easy to spot a gay person based on how they dress. There are a few articles on here about fashion. I get the feeling that some guys will take the advice too literally and end up looking gay when their intention was to look sexy, male sexy.
Some items I know a man shouldn't wear are:
Earrings
Skin tight or really close pants
Creamed hair
Nose or tongue ring
Feet bracelet ( clear sign )
Sparkling small girl watch
Extra tight shirt
Pants below butt
And others that are way too obvious
Whenever I go out I have to be extra careful not to over dress. Because I don't want to take this fashion thing too far and look gay. I'm still not sure where the fine line is between looking straight and gay. Could someone help out with some advice on not looking gay while still fixing up our wardrobe? Thanks
Troy
What She Forgot To Mention...
The part this woman forgot to mention... Is that gay guys actually get laid MORE than your average guy with no GAME. Let me explain. Gay dudes are not all that "Gay" as most "gay" dudes tend to have bisexual tendencies. It is human nature to be attracted to the opposite sex. Even "gay" dudes cannot go against biology. They are part of the Secret Society who truly get to understand woman as individuals, and not as the bs society sets them out to be. Gay dudes get to hear about women's emotions, and do not judge women for being promiscuous. They are found attractive in their sense of Style, and their personalities always radiate. Gay dudes always know how to entertain women, and keep them intrigued. They are better than your typical "Nice Guy" because they do not bother women in their neediness, and weakness. Women find gay guys fun. Do you know WHYYY gay dudes drill more poon than your Average Joe?
GAY GUYS ARE A CHALLENGE!
It is the same way, that when you're an asshole to women... Tell them "Shut Up" "I don't feel like hearing you speak right now" and not responding to their texts... You'll hear
"You're not an asshole, I just know you're not"... Next thing you know, they'll be knocking on your dorm room, trying to "tame you from your bad ways", and getting hurt when they can't lock you down. (True College Stories Lol) Assholes get all the girls because the girls want what they're not sure if they can have. Maybe they can. Maybe they can't. Who knows? That's the fun part. Women Love Mystery. They always feel the need to "Change" someone from their ways. They want to be that girl. Other than Assholes... You know who else provides that Challenge? (Drum roll Please)
Gay Guys
Women always think
"There's no way he's gay! He can't be"
Or "I want to change him straight"
The same way they think for the Asshole, is how they think about the gay guy. They want to Change Him... Because he is a Challenge. They are stable... But at the same time... They are not. Because she can't have him (or can she)
"And then out of the blue, he said Sarah I Love You! Just like that. It meant that I'm important to him, and he loves me as as person, BUT DOESN'T WANT TO GET IN MY PANTS. SIMPLY LOVE WITHOUT ANY ULTERIOR MOTIVATES. It just made my day"
A woman would never, ever, EVER, mention a man getting in her pants without it actually happening. What she forgot to mention... Is that he got in her pants... And it made her day... Because she conquered the Challenge. Read between the lines. It's not that... Challenging! Haha Get It ;)
P.S... Chase, I know you must've posted this article for the controversy of it all... You Sly Devil ;)
The Comments are True
I hope this article is satire. Just goes against everything I know from this site, it really sounds like something I would read from some superficial article shared on my facebook wall
Jealousy
Hey Dave(or chase if you're reading),
it's been a long time. Can you tell me how to obliterate jealousy out of mind completely and effectively? I don't seem to find any article which would guide me how to mentally stay stable when you heard, remember or even a girl tell you about her boyfriend/ex boyfriend she was so close with or that passionate night when she loosed her virginity.
It's really stupid. It's just attachment which causes jealousy. Especially when you are into a girl, then though her ex boyfriend the thing that this girl was so close with that guy or still is disturb you. Even when you saw her first time with her boyfriend it didn't bother you but later when you start feeling for her then those same memories disturb very well. I literally want to get rid of it. It does no good.
A Good Website for Advice From and To Women
Not to comment on anything too specific in this article (other than Chase has agreed that the only points worth noting might be how important fashion is and how dominance in gay males reflects a female's desire for a dominant male nearby), but for those of you looking for a website where a woman gives good advice, I would check out the following:
The Feminine Woman
This is the only website I have ever seen on the web that provides sensible advice from a woman on dating. It still has a few flaws among its articles, but it is the closest thing you will see to a "GirlsChase" for women.
I would ignore any other dating advice from women.
- Franco
My two cents.
Well, here are my two cents for anyone who cares to read it.
I see both things to consider and disregard in this article. Rather than being bitter or angry with the fact that it's a woman giving dating advice to a man, or that alot of it sounds like beta material, lets look at what we can learn from gay men, in order to incorporate into our own masculine styles:
WHAT I AGREE WITH
1) They look great: Of course, fundamentals are the foundation of seduction. Things such as dressing well, facial hair, your vibe, style, etc. This is a no-brainer.
WHAT I SOMEWHAT AGREE WITH
2) They're attentive: Attentiveness, I believe should be used as a reward. The more she invests in you, the more she interests you, the more attentive you are towards her. If she wastes your time, says something that annoys you, or is just an overall constant chatterbox, you turn your attentiveness down. Compliments themselves, I find kinda tricky. I've been using a real mixture of different kinds of compliments lately;a) Superficial compliments that are genuine, such as compliments about her hair if I think it's nice, or her style. b) Compliments that utilize push and pull, for example: Youve got a real nice sense of style.. you should teach my grandmother how to dress. c) Compliments that have a suggestive comment thrown in there, for example: That's a real nice dress, how many men have you killed showing those legs? d) A sincere compliment that builds us, somewhere within the interaction: It's always nice running into artistic types such as ourselves, I feel like were a dying breed. e) A sincere comment, just directed towards her. f) Sometimes i throw in a neg, just to bust their balls, but make sure she can only hear it. Example: Looks like youve had a bit too much to drink tonight, the buckets over there sweetheart.
All have worked for me, theyre just a mixture of what Chase and experience has taught me.
3) They're gentleman: Okay so, I'm not gonna light a girls cigarette, unless I can get a bit of light touch on her face. I'm not gonna hold the door for her, unless I'm gonna guide her in with my hand. When she expects me to do these beta acts, expect me to just use it as a vessel for some kind of touch or investment. Drinks, I won't buy her one unless I feel it'll help me in some way. Never when she asks for one.
4): They're able to talk about emotions: Yeah, just as Chase has said before, dominant males dont show emotion, they only talk about it. The little bit of emotion they do show, is used as a heavy reward. My company is enough of a reward for them, emotions are a huge form of investment for me. Something I can't afford giving, unless given something huge first. For example, sex.
5) They know we need time before going out: Don't expect me to wait around for you to get ready. Don't expect me to waste my time waiting for you, when you know about this long ago. I'm a considerate man, but a busy one. If were going out at 8 tonight, and it takes you two hours to get ready, then start at 6. If you have some obligations before, then dont tell me youre available that day. If you're going to make me wait more than 15 minutes past the time we set, don't expect me to stick around. I'm a persistent, patient man, but only when I have to be.
WHAT I DONT AGREE WITH AT ALL
6) They have feminine interests: females are feminine, gays are feminine, men are not. We don't find feminine activities even remotely appealing. What you should look for here is mutual interests and passions. Writing, painting, traveling, always something related to both of your goals and passions. Find out what she likes, compare it to what you like, and emphasize the mutual interests. Mirror her, and make it feel special that you both share this one interest, and not many people do, even if its not true. If you try mirroring her in activities you have no interest in, from experience its kind of a trap. You end up feeling like an idiot if you have no knowledge on the subject, or sometimes the topic just bores you and you dont feel connected.
7) We can talk to them about guys: Need I say more? Men don't gossip. Men bring others around them, not tear them down.
The real reason
While I can appreciate the article and the reasons given seem fair, they are from a woman's point a view, and so they are a bit biased.
I'd say, in the big picture, the real reason that they like gay male friends is because men and women are in a state of control, where women are controlled by men, who are the head of the household. So, a gay man is very refreshing, they get to be around a man, but get to play with him without the trappings of a straight man. Straight men do not have gay female friends. Which proves this point.
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