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Pickup Problems Faced by Intermediate Seducers

Alek Rolstad's picture
pickup problemsIntermediate-level playboys have problems too. Their problems picking up women are different from beginners. They get some success now… but now come the plateaus, inconsistency, and ego.

Hey guys, welcome back.

Today I want to address a rarely discussed subject: issues intermediate and advanced players face with their learning curves. We often talk about difficulties beginners face, such as approach and escalation anxiety, lack of motivation and confidence, and even becoming depressed.

I know coaches who specialize in helping beginners. They spend time motivating them and playing the role of a therapist so beginners deal with whatever issue they may face while teaching them the basic skillset.

Many products are also geared toward beginners. They give a basic understanding of social dynamics and teach them the fundamentals of pickup and seduction.

Fewer products or coaching programs are dedicated to intermediate practitioners and even fewer to advanced guys. I will get to why that is.

I am careful about calling a top-tier advanced guy a student since they might hire me as a consultant to get an external perspective or learn about something I specialize in to master a new area.

Take a moment to jot down some challenges these two groups of students face. Then I will share a few words on dealing with these issues.

Why Do Guys Screw Up When the Girl Is Really Hot?

Chase Amante's picture
hot girl screwupsHow come when a girl is really hot, you mess up more, even if you don’t with more average girls? There’s a reason for it – and it happens to almost every guy, too.

I recently received an email from a long-time acquaintance who'd left England to begin traveling through Central and South America and get back to picking up girls again while also working as a yoga instructor.

He'd continued sleeping with average girls from dating apps over the lockdowns, then once his trip started, he bedded a few more average girls from hostels. Assuming all was good with his game, and he must be rust-free, he then proceeded to meet an extremely beautiful Argentinian girl... and it all fell apart.

He says:

I met physically my perfect girl who was working on the tour desks. She’s Argentinian and I’m really into Latin girls.  I suggested she joined me for dinner and it went really well. I deep dived alot and after dinner moved her to a quiet sofa outside by the pool.  She was a little bit tipsy by now from all the Argentinian wine at dinner, and was sitting super close to me.  She also told me what an amazing evening she’d had and hugged me twice for a long time.  It was the obvious escalation window, only I didn’t do anything!

My reasoning was that I’m new here and don’t want to seem like I was taking advantage of her when she was drunk.  I figured I had loads of other opportunities.  It was also late and I had to teach yoga in the morning. So we hugged and went our separate ways. 

That was a big mistake!  She text me the next morning saying how good a night she had. Now all I was thinking about is ‘this is going to be the hottest girl I’ve slept with, when can I get her alone again!’  So I went into full on chasing mode, suggesting she came with me on my weekend trip and suggesting a load of other potential dates. Plus inviting her to come and stay with me in London!

By time we had dinner it was the next week and by then her long distance boyfriend was unexpectedly coming to see her for a day later in the week.  She’d also been offered a job in Tulum and was leaving at the weekend.  This made me think ‘this is my last chance, need to impress her’ so I was way too high energy. Got her back to my room to drink wine on the balcony, but waited way too long to do anything, plus hadn’t been touching her or leading the conversation towards sex.

Also I’d been doing way too much deep diving that it had become an interview.  She was tired so I knew it was my last chance, so tried to kiss her with no setup.  She said she just wanted to keep things as they are as we get on really well and I said nothing to persuade her otherwise!  I just waited a while and tried to escalate a couple more times, which again was chasing and unsuccessful.

I spoke to her a few times around the hostel in the week afterwards, but just casual friendly stuff. Turns out I’ll be in Tulum next weekend, she said let her know, but feel like it would be hard to arrange to see her without it seeming like I’m chasing.  I was so mad with myself the next day! The escalation window had been wide open with a super hot girl, and I decided to walk away! But at least it lead to me re-reading a lot of your stuff!

Now, it wasn't like his game just completely disappeared. Because the very next day this happened:

The next day I had another tinder date with a Mexican girl who didn’t speak English.  As I really didn’t care about her of course my game was great and quickly slept with her and had a great night!

He wraps up by asking:

Would you say there should be no difference between game with 10’s than average tinder date girls? If you haven’t written an article on this I think it’s an interesting topic. And how would you play seeing the Argentinian girl again?

I've written about that in places, in snippets, but I don't think I've ever devoted a complete article to the subject.

So, let's do that now. Let's talk about why guys screw up with really hot girls... and whether you can (and should) approach them exactly the same as more ordinary, average, or cute girls.

Seducing Women to Sex vs. Guarding Daughters from Sex

Chase Amante's picture
lovers vs. daughtersHow can a seducer view sleeping with women as morally correct… while knowing he likely wouldn’t want his daughter to sleep around? A deep dive into sexual morality.

On Alek's recent piece showcasing three new sex talk gambits, a reader posted the following provocative comment:

Hello Alek.

I've noticed something about Girls Chase and the seduction community at large.

There seems to be a lot of cognitive bias and intellectual dishonesty in this space Re: "Sluts".

See, in this space we teach that women are human beings just like men and should therefore be free to engage in sex freely w/o judgement.

Additionally, the concept of "high body count" is a non issue to us "lovers" unless seeking an LTR.

However, the facts show that "most" women are NOT in fact built for casual sex. Most high n count women either have personality disorders, histories of child abuse, poor impulse control or high sex drives.

For the most part women barter sex for relationships and constant hookups for the average chick without committment damages her psyche. That's why FWB chicks sometimes get jaded and tired of empty sex.

Here's a thought, if women like sex so much, why cant they hold down an FWB arrangemnt in perpetuity like men would prefer?

Chase has also countered the argument that older seducers do not corrupt younger girls by fucking them young 18/19yo) because women have agency and can think for themselves.

Yet we also go on to say that women are cute little smurfs who need guidance and direction. They aren't the best decision makers particularly when young.

In short all these axioms we have here seem to be rationalisations for "lovers" to be able to fuck girls without suffering from guilt.

And one way I can prove this is to request an article titled "A Letter to my 18yo Daughter" or sth along these lines giving her advice on how to manouver sexual relations as she goes off to start her first year in college.

Would you still tell your daughter that its okay to fuck a smooth talking guy on the first date if she feels the vibe?

Would you still tell her that body count is a social construct used by prudes and puritans? One nightstands are perfectly okay.

Would you still allow her to be fucked by older dudes (30s) while in her first year of college because older man + younger chick is a completely normal thing to do?

I find it hard hard to fully embody the lover archetype because it frequently clashes with the patriach archetype inside me who thinks he might have a daughter one day.

And I understand that this site does not give womens advice because it is a mens site for MEN but in this case saying that might be an easy cop out from addressing the disingenious nature of the things we teach here Re: Women and Sex

Is it possible to be a lover and a patriach without experiencing cognitive dissonance?

Trillion Dollar Question.

I love this question, and I'd love to answer it... so, while it may be addressed to Alek, I'd like to weigh in with my thoughts on it too.

Sexual Disgust: How Do You Get Past It (and Should You)?

Chase Amante's picture
sexual disgustSexual disgust can hold back your progress with women or wreak havoc in your relationships. Yet how do you overcome it… and SHOULD you?

A week back, on an article where I discuss a girlfriend who'd been with three men before (two boyfriends + a guy she hoped would be a boyfriend but who turned out to already have a girlfriend, unbeknownst to her), a reader commented:

Chase, I've worked hard for not feeling insecure about the girl's past. What i still do feel though, is disgust. With no intentions of insulting your girlfriend, if i had a girl like that with a past like that I'd feel utter disgust. While that girl may be considered a unicorn in ur country, i feel utter disgust. any tips on overcoming this disgust and being too damning on women??

What he's talking about is sexual disgust.

Sexual disgust is a natural - though not absolutely ubiquitous - phenomenon that occurs among both women and men. You'll see it the most by far with sexually inexperienced individuals; the more sexually experienced someone gets, the less sexual disgust is an issue for him. We'll discuss more on this below.

I want to discuss it with some sensitivity in this article, as any time the topic comes up it tends to provoke polarized responses from all sides. People low in sexual disgust regard as Puritanical those with higher sexual disgust; those high in sexual disgust view as degenerate those with lower sexual disgust.

Instead, in this piece, we'll aim for practicality:

  • What is sexual disgust?
  • Why do people have it?
  • How do you overcome it?
  • Should you overcome it... and if so to what degree?

All, I think, are worthwhile explorations. Let's have a look at each.

How a Man Meets Women Radically Shapes His View of Them

Chase Amante's picture
man's view of womenMen hold quite various views on women. Why do men’s views diverge so sharply? Much comes down to how they meet, with different avenues leading to differing views.

We just had another conversation on the forum where a guy who does 'sugar dating' (i.e., a type of prostitution previously known as 'girlfriend experience' or GFE) argued the same line I've heard a hundred times from men who frequent prostitutes of all stripes:

You pay for it one way or another, whether the meals you buy her on a date or the house you buy her once she's your wife. At least with prostitution the whole thing's [benefits of prostitution].

This isn't an article about whether you should or shouldn't do prostitution. I've already written that article.

Instead, I want to cover some of the more common ways men meet women, and how the way they meet women colors the interactions they have with them and shapes the way they think about them.

What Is the End in Seduction?

Alek Rolstad's picture
end in seductionWhat end must you aim for in a seduction? Is it attraction? Is it stimulation? Is it to impress her so much she chases? In fact, it’s none of these… not if you want the girl, that is.

Hey guys.

I hope you are all doing well.

Let’s get ready for some advanced stuff.

Today, I would like to reflect on how the typical “ends” in pickup and seduction are not what one should strive for (aside from shagging her, of course).

By ends, I am referring to what you want to accomplish, so you get her into bed:

  • Do you impress her?

  • Do you stimulate her?

  • Do you make her attracted? (I prefer the word “compliance”)

Are these ends the correct ones? That’s what we will discuss. I will cover the typical concepts of ends and why they are not real ends or simply just a means to an end.

Then I will cover what the real ends are.

This post should not be confused with “the end game” of seduction and whether your end goal with a woman is a relationship or casual sex. Only you can provide the answer to that question.

So we will discuss which ends to focus on to have the most results. This is a more objective approach than trying to answer the subjective question of what type of relationships you’d like to have with women.

I will start with basic concepts and get into complex stuff later. Let’s dive in.

"Women Are Worshipped & Men Are Disposable" Is a Fantasy

Chase Amante's picture
men are disposableSociety doesn’t care about men. Women are worshipped. For this reason, men can’t get women. Is this true? Or is it… fantasy?

We had a guy register on our forum and derail a thread to talk about how if you're "not in the top 1% of men" women don't want you and you can't get girls.

Needless to say, this is a guy who admittedly does not get girls. So he must know all about what it takes to get girls, eh?

Am I in the top 1% of attractive men? I suppose it depends how you determine that. I tend to think I am, so long as you're taking into account charm, social abilities, resolve, and whatnot. But I can tell you I definitely was not when I started out on this journey... and I still got girls. Some of them quite hot, too.

I shagged a fashion model when I had a beer belly, baggy clothes, mumbled talk, and a little boy haircut! I got a beautiful, vivacious girlfriend who was the niece of the former Secretary of Defense of a Latin American country around the same time! (she didn't want to date me at first, but persistence paid off!)

Our Field Reports Board on the forum is filled with lays from guys who aren't yet in the "top 1% of men" (as well as some guys who probably are!).

But this isn't about "do you need to be top 1% to get girls" (I've already addressed that elsewhere).

This is about this particular excerpt from one of this user's posts in his forum thread:

But it is true though.  Women are propped up and worshipped by society.  Men are disposable and basically thrown away like defective toys.  The only ones with any real power, control or lasting effect over women these days are the 1 percent.

There it is, isn't it?

"Women are worshipped. Men are disposable. Only the top 1% of men can rise above it."

Let's talk about that mentality, and how guys get it... and also why it's a sack of over-ripe mainstream media brain-slave cow manure.

How Driven Must You Be to Succeed at Seduction?

Chase Amante's picture
drivenness and seductionMust you be driven to succeed at seducing women? It depends how far you want to take it. Also discussed: success in other areas of life vs. with women.

I'd like to talk today about 'drive'. Drive to greatness in anything, be that seduction or anything else.

If you don't care about greatness or aren't seeking it in anything, the discussion in this article is moot to you. You don't need to be great to get girls. You can use the material on Girls Chase without needing to be some legendary seducer and still enjoy as much success as you want.

However, we also get guys coming here who want to talk about greatness; so let us talk about that.

I see this issue raised from time to time that asks whether focusing on women is a distraction. Learning to find, approach, talk to, flirt with, ask out, and bed women may be pulling a man off his grander purpose(s), goes the reservation.

There's some truth to this, of course; when you're very focused on women, you won't tend to be focused on whatever else you are doing.

However, there's another truth, which is this: the rate men succeed at seduction has a lot more in common with the rates they succeed at other passions in their lives than it 'takes away' from such things.

Because, you see, there are underlying factors that impact how well a man does and how far he goes in this art... and many of these underlying factors have a great deal of overlap with other areas of that man's interests.

Rather than seduction 'pushing them out', it's more the case that a man who is sufficiently driven will tend to excel in seduction alongside a few other areas of excellence too.

Why Autistic People Struggle with Dating: Mind Blindness

Chase Amante's picture
autism and datingMen with Asperger’s struggle with “social confusion.” Others often behave in ways that seem irrational to them. Why is this so, and is there anything they can do?

I write this article for every guy on the autism spectrum, whether he's on it a little or on it a lot.

I'm not an expert in autism or Asperger's, but I will say this: after coaching social skills for a dozen years on a site that attracts many folks on the spectrum, due to

  1. said folks really needing social skills training, and

  2. this site being more drilled-down and nuanced than any other site (something of particular appeal to autistic folk)...

... well, when it comes to the autism spectrum, I know it when I see it.

I'm going to focus on Asperger's in this piece; that is to say, high functioning folks on the autism spectrum with normal language and intelligence who, nevertheless, have a significant social stumbling block.

I want to lay out some of the (very) common stumbling blocks I see Aspies making, again and again, when they start learning dating, and I want to highlight a missing 'sense' these men have, that they may not realize they're missing, that, at least, the knowledge of its lack can help fill in some blanks for them.

PSA: Don't Chide Girls/Society; Stay Sane

Chase Amante's picture
stay saneWhen things are getting crazy, you can let the crazy get you, or you can keep a cool head. Don’t give in to the weirdness; keep your head screwed on straight.

I am seeing guys increasingly having trouble dealing with some of the social weirdness going on right now.

There are a couple of parallel mass hysterias happening at the moment. Almost everyone has been driven into one or the other of them at this point. That's what hysterias do... they push people to extremes and force them to pick sides.

We have been having guys vent on the forum about women buying into the mass panic. Others are debating whether they should relocate (to avoid lockdowns/lifestyle restrictions) or comply with various measures (or, if not, risk losing their livelihoods). It's rational to have concerns... any time anyone is pushing something on you, trying to force something on you, it's wise to be careful and move prudently.

However, no matter what is going on around you, if all the world's gone mad, even if people are forcing you to do things at gunpoint, whatever it is, you've got to keep a cool head.

You've got to keep a cool head for your own sake, and you've got to keep a cool head for the sake of anyone dependent or reliant on you in any way.

You will find, if you can keep a cool head, things rarely turn out as bad as you fear.