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In many articles on GC, we’ve talked about how important it is to avoid ending up being a girl’s platonic guy pal whom she taps for personal and emotional support, and never lets things proceed any further:
- What Regular
Guys Don’t Understand
- Just Friends: A Man’s Worst Nightmare
- How to Get Out of the Friend Zone: A Man’s Survival Guide
- 12 Traits All Boring, Unsexy Nice Guys Have in Common
- 14 Terrible
Signs You’re Deep in the Friend Zone
Yet, while it is imperative for newer guys who have not yet become the compelling, demanding, sexual studs of men that women are wont to sleep with to avoid the “friend” role, the more advanced you get, the more easily you can “bend the rules.”
In fact, it’s completely possible for you to learn how to hang out with a girl calmly, casually, and like nothing more than a friend... and still sleep with her.
Believe it or not, there are even advantages to this style... such
as simplicity.
This is the “friend approach” to seduction, and it’s a bit different from what I and the other guys usually talk about on here; however, if you have friends who are naturals with women, you’ve almost certainly seen it before.
You know: that buddy of yours who just has the most laid back “dates” ever – all he ever does is hang out with girls super casually, and then they just somehow always stumble into his bed?
Wouldn’t it be cool if you could consistently do that?
Comments
Laid Back Vibe
Hey Chase,
A few things I don't get:
1. What do you do if you invite her for a hang-out date and move too quickly, and then she refuses your advances? How long do you wait before making another move and how do you save face?
2. Also I've noticed my friends who have a laid back vibe (surfers, stoners, etc) who are good looking and have game tend to use this hang-out approach more and it seems to work for them more. Do you think this is just because these kind of guys are less likely to go out on dates or is there something else going on there? I can't imagine a suave type guy in a blazer pulling this off as easily as a good looking surfer type. It seems like the laid-back type of guy may make a woman feel easier to let loose around and not feel so pressured.
3. This brings me to my next point. I'm a big proponent of the Byronic type of guy, who isn't very clean cut and doesn't get too dolled up when going out. (I have long hair and can pull off either look depending on how I do my hair and dress) In general, is it better to be the laid-back surfer type or the cleaner cut guy in a blazer? Or does this have to do with the type of woman you're pursuing? I know your look and style has to be congruent with how a woman dresses/appears. But is one significantly better for picking up women in general? In other words, in public, is it best to have very laid back look, GQ'ed up, or a hybrid? I assume a hybrid would be best - Not clean shaven, still wears sharp clothes, and has an edge in his clothing (necklace, open shirt, etc.) I figure looking too sharp makes you seem too valuable, and may put you in potential boyfriend/provider category, while being a laid-back guy makes you better suited to be a lover. Am I right on this?
4. Finally, I'm confused about value. You say here that you want to be valuable (have her want to invest in you because you're valuable to her) and I've heard it before on this site, but I recall you writing in an article that you DON'T want to appear too valuable. This way a woman is more likely to see you as "only" a guy she can sleep with, which then let's you bring her to bed. I'm a young professional and I can't quite seem to figure out if it's best for me to let women know I'm successful or not say anything. And if I should appear as a one-night stand type of guy who has a laid back vibe and not doing much with himself work-wise or if I should be that guy who looks like a GQ model and is successful (but that may make me look too valuable, right?).
P.S. One very last thing... I haven't found any articles on picking up a woman's friend. Like tips on seducing the cuter friend of a girl you're dating, even if it means losing the girl you're dating. Just a suggestion.
Cheers and thanks for all help.
Momentum
Re: Laid Back Vibe
Momentum-
How long you wait depends on how the date ended – did she leave happily and playfully, in a “Not yet, but soon!” kind of way, or awkwardly and uncomfortably in a, “I can’t believe this happened… my life is over…” way?
If it was closer to the former, meet her as soon as possible. If the latter, you might need to smooth things out with a tamer next date after a few days have passed.
I do notice the laid back surfer / stoner / casual type having a far easier time with the hang out date, yeah. I think it just matches the vibe better – this is clearly a guy who spends his time kicking back at home, so it feels more natural for her to join him in this. If he’s a guy who’s always on the go, heading to nice places, etc. (or seems like he is), a hang out date seems not nearly as congruent, which throws up some concerns for her if he’s trying to get her out on one.
As for which style you adopt, yes – it has to do with what kind of woman you’re after. You’ll get very different kinds of women as the laid back surfer dude vs. the clean-cut jeans-and-blazer guy. Anecdotally, you’ll have an easier time picking up in dive bars, college campuses, and near the beach (say, on the boardwalk) as the surfer dude; you’ll have an easier time meeting women in lounges, nightclubs, wine tastings, and busy downtown metropolitan areas with a more stylish/blazer look. Both looks can do well in coffee shops and cafés.
Value – value’s a balance. Like Goldilocks and the three little bears: you want to have just the right amount, not too much, not too little. Too much and she’ll auto-reject in most cases (exceptions: celebrities or other public authority figures); too little and she’ll be uninterested and uninspired.
I’d experiment with showing yourself as the successful professional or not. You’ll generally find that you’ll have an easier time with lower status-but-hot girls (e.g., hot girl working as a Starbucks barista) if you’re clearly a successful professional but still keep your attainability in good shape, because she knows you’re out of her reach for a relationship but still finds you attractive, while being clearly successful can make it tougher with professional women (who view you as being in the range of what they’re looking for in a long-term mate, and thus put the brakes on things to slow them down and not mess up).
And – noted on the “picking up her friend” article. Bit of an ethical gray area there, though I suppose if you’re being responsible it could be okay. I’ll add it to the topics list.
Chase
Too much contradictions between articles
In an article you written before you say FUN kills ATRRACTION , while here you say 2 "The one she laughs with, gets turned on by". I'm really confused. Can you explain different types of fun please?
Also,please make posts about how to dominate not only girls but also our gender-boys; how to make boys listen to you, how to lead groups and have your word listened most , how to make boys chase after you for your friendship, what are the tricks some guys use to dominate you and so on....
I believe you have a lot of readers waiting for this kind of things and giving us guides like that would make us really happy!
I know that learning how to become a lover automatically on the other side makes you a valuable and respected man for boys, but before becoming that, what are some tips we could do just now?
RE: Too much contradictions between articles
Anon,
On your first point, "fun" (as in the type of fun you should not be) is like playing bumper cars with a girl or taking her to play laser tag. In this article, Chase points out that these sort of fun activities take away from the inter-personal dynamics between you and her. Aside from "fun" being used as an activity, being fun also is along the lines of having the nice guy or the funny guy personality, and these guys are great friends for a girl, not lovers. As Chase has written before, women do like having fun guy friends and value this friendship, but they aren't lovers. I think "the one she laughs with, gets turned on by" implies being playful in a sexy, teasing way. This article is for more advanced guys, which is why guys with experience can walk this fine line and not get pulled into the "funny/fun guy" category. Balance is key here and you want to time your fun moments to get her lightened up and then move as you normally would in a sexual way.
In response to your request on leading men in groups, Chase has written about that here:
http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-be-alpha-male-without-becoming-ste...
Cheers,
Achilles
Yeh
The above post on fun hits a few points about the contradictions between your own articles Chase regarding fun.
I realise it's all about balance, and when on one article you say not to be so fun but in stead concentrate on leading and connecting what you mean is don't focus ALL your attention on making her laugh
But it's hard to grasp from your articles the kind of balance that we need between being fun and all jokey, making girls laugh etc and being more calm and still with the occasional joke.
Sometimes I'll read one of your articles regarding advice from you to lose the fun vibe and I will picture a guy who is very calm, still, mostly connects with girls, occasionally breaks the tension with a joke or chase frame but is largely more stoic.
Then I read an article like this one and I picture the master seducer as being some jumpy kind, sexy but nice guy who is always cracking jokes, busting on girls, and just having FUN with her.
I can't seem to find the balance. Which one is it?
I have to say that your advice in this one about being all fun and flirty does seem a bit different from your usual recommendations. Reading the article I picture a really nice happy chappy, inviting a girl back to his to sit on his sofa, I picture him smiling all the time, getting her laughing, having a great time together., yeh teasing her and flirting sexually, But I don't picture that as seduction, it just seems to fun and flirty based, almost not serious enough. Kind of like how a retarded stoner might attempt seduction, yeh it might work, but is it the best way forward?
And what happened to your kiss in 10 minutes rule?
As you know too much fun and flirting kills tension, which is never good.
RE: Yeh
Anon,
The balance is certainly a fine line, and the hang out setting is more for experienced guys since they can walk this line. You want to be fun (women don't want a negative or boring guy) but you don't want to be "all jokey," since that's an unsexy polarized approach and would make you the funny guy. Fun means keeping things sexy, intriguing, and interesting, peppered with some humor. You can still be calm and stoic, as these are not mutually exclusive with being fun. Being calm and stoic has a lot to do with your physical demeanor, approach, and reactions. This should not take away from your ability to keep her intrigued and in a playful mood.
If you want to a sexy polarized approach, you can be the talkative type, brooding type or the smooth type. Chase has an article pointing out how to use these different approaches:
http://www.girlschase.com/content/3-flavors-sexy-brooding-smooth-and-tal...
However, using any of these approaches has to do with your social setting and experience level (the smooth type is for experienced guys since it allows for very little error in your game). While those are three major categories of sexy, there are also 9 major identity types which can determine the right game for you. Think of these as being on another axis as those big three sexy types. They can be found here:
http://www.girlschase.com/content/9-male-identities-and-how-they-affect-...
The point of this is that any one type of approach isn't going to work for everyone all the time for every woman. We are dealing with human interactions and it's intuitive that there will not be any one blueprint for everyone.
The hang out date is for experienced men and does not have to do with any one type of sexy approach. The experienced guy knows what he's doing in this laid back environment that may normally be a setting for an encounter between friends, but he knows how to make it into a sexual one. Since the hang out date doesn't apply to any one type of sexy approach, the article has broad guidelines (the lack of detailing what fun entails). These broad guidelines may get guys confused and ask "how playful or fun should I be?" Adjust that level according to your style and the situation, but keep it sexy, fun, and keep her interested in you.
.
In fact just to illustrate my point, you know the guy in the picture you have used for this article. That is exactly who I picture when I read this article. He doesn't look seductive to me. Sure they're having a great time, but are her panties getting wet, having all this fun? Is this guy really setting himself up as a sexy man or just a fun guys who is great to hang out with and play some xbox. Even if that guy is busting her stones and flirting in the process, does this whole fun vibe not detract from his sexuality and manliness? He looks like a kid
Fun
Anon-
Sorry for the confusion. Please reread the section under subheader #1: Be Exciting, Not “Friendly”. Also, Achilles's previous comments to you above.
The kind of fun you want to avoid - the sort I was talking about in “Why "Fun" is a Seduction Killer”, is the external / impersonal fun: fun places, fun things to do, funny jokes about other people and things, etc.
This is what "regular guys" lean on because they don't know how to generate "adult" fun with women - teasing, flirting, banter, tension. These latter items all are also "fun", but they're not the kind of fun someone who is inexperienced with women knows how to be or is any good at being. This is the kind of "fun" you need to be to make hang out dates work.
Every guy who's good with women that I know has a good sense of humor, but he's also not cracking jokes all the time. It's a spice sprinkled in, and when it is it's almost always personal to the girl - either it's about them, or it's creating an "us vs. them" vibe against other goofy/dorky people around (compared to the guy and the girl, who are cool/awesome/sexy).
Beginners tend to view things in extremes, because they don't have the experience built up yet to know how to use balance and nuance. So they hear, "Girls like guys who are funny," and think, "That's it! If I can just crack enough jokes, she'll HAVE to like me!" And then they hear, "Girls don't like guys who are clowns and dancing monkeys," and they think, "Oh, okay. I've got to be SUPER serious and suave all the time." Both of these are unattractive extremes. Women want the men who can use humor judiciously, but well.
On dealing with men, having your word listened to, making friends, leading, etc., check out these articles:
As for the guy in the picture, he'd have an easier time of things if he had a blanket to throw over the two of their legs to escalate under on that couch.
Chase
About monogamous girl
Hi chase :)
I am enjoying your articles very much. But I have something that's bothering me it's about marriage. Can a women stay loyal to one man that she tells she wants to marry . She says she loves him a lot and believes in the institution of marriage. Will she always love him till death does them apart. If the guy is a man who keeps thing fresh , exciting and challenging while simultaneously meeting the woman's need. Will still her attraction fade for him ?
Is there something like life long love between couples ?
P.s. My parents are married for 35 years never cheated and happy together but I don't know if they still are attracted to each other.
Would be nice if you can send me to some links answering these question.
Monogamy
Anaya-
Check out my thoughts on this here: "Yes, Monogamy Works."
Chase
RE: About monogamous girl
Naya,
Life-long attraction can exist, granted the man keeps her interested throughout the relationship. However, many men don't know how to play their cards right and how to keep that woman interested in them indefinitely.
Keep in mind that marriage and attraction are two very different things, a point you illustrate in stating that your parents are married but not attracted to each other. Women stay in loveless marriages all the time, whether it's for financial reasons, social reasons, etc. So staying married and staying attracted must be differentiated.
The dynamics between a man and a woman in a marriage are expected to be tumultuous, but the man's ability in making the woman submit on a regular basis will keep her attracted to him, and thus keeping their marriage together.
Achilles
Attainability.
Hey Chase,
I find this article amazing because I'm the guy who cuts friendzone stuff out of the way as soon as I see it coming a mile away. I've never considered "using" female friends for sexual experience or just my social skills training but I just might give it a shot next time. But let's continue to the main issue.
I noticed you mentioned "becoming TOO attainable". I read your article on attainability in general but I'm having a hard time to process the issue of identifying it as a problem. I'm a good-looking dude, I go to the gym and I shave my head to a buzzcut style 1 or 2. My fashion sense is okay, I'd say, typical H&M, New Yorher, Bershka, Zara type of clothing. Now, I live in Europe where jacked-up, shaved heads are basically stereotypes of them being a douchebag. At least that's what I gathered from the social criticism when I went clubbing, partying or whatever.
With all that in mind, I haven't had sex in over 2 years. I have no problems approaching a girl, but I'm having difficulties meeting women who aren't crazy (you know, the ones from clubs and night bars). They are immediately dismissive as if I really am just a good-looking douchebag with no character at all. My guess is, as you said in articles, I'm low attainibility.
How can I change that?
My fashion sense is okay, I guess. Shaving head won't change because I have high temples and a receding hairline. My head is naturally well-shaped so I can pull it off. I like going to the gym and be fit. What else can I change or do to change the women's impressions?
Thanks in advance.
Being More Attainable
Romy-
In your position, I’d focus predominantly on build a really warm demeanor – warm facial expressions, an easy laugh, and a very friendly, outgoing personality that’s disarming to people, if you’re coming across as really “hard edge” and low attainability.
That is, I’d leave off worrying too much about “looking sexy” with facial expressions, for instance, and focus more on “looking warm”, trusting your physique and other characteristics to make you automatically enough of a sexual threat already.
This article might be a good place to start: “Tactics Tuesdays: How to Be a Warm Person.”
Chase
Awesome
This is great work, Chase. It's by far the best kind of "date:" no money involved, no weird "interview style" sitting across a table, no expectations of when the awkward kiss might happen later in the night...just two people having fun and oh hey look, now we're touching and egads, we're fuckbuddies now. Seamless.
Wow! This was long overdue. I
Wow! This was long overdue. I had a friend in first/second year who I'm pretty sure did this all the time. I'm planning to move out of my parents' house next semester (they're paying my rent), so I'll be trying this out a lot. I like that video game picture - your new picture person must be working out!
Michael
Social Circle, Date with Girl Today, & Being Fun
A anonymous reader asked the same question I had in mind before regarding fun and how to be sexy at the same time. So I'll get straight to my other questions.
I'm becoming fed up with social circle. I want to be apart of it but I'm being ignored almost everywhere at school. People may call to me and have 30 seconds small talk and that's it between us for the day. I keep falling into negative thinking when I can't find anyone who wants to hang out with me.
A few weeks ago I talked about a girl by the name Tanique who was on friendly terms with me. I talked to her everyday and I had to be the initiator most times. At first, when we met at school she knew no one so had no friends. She is a shy person but back then she would come up and talk to me. Now that I introduced her to everyone at school and kept her company so she wouldn't be lonely, she has now begun separating herself from me.
How I know? She walks past me whenever I am sitting down on the corridors and cafeteria. Yet everyone else on the corridors and cafeteria she calls to them. It's getting overly annoying. Today I got really angry because of that. I didn't let it show though.
I sat in a group of five persons. One girl and the rest of us guys. She walked out of her way to come talk to two of the guys and give the other one a big hug with a big smile on. He didn't even hug her back. He is a ladies man. At just 18 years old, that guy has slept with over 20 girls.
And me, she didn't even look at. After all what I did. Even if I was a platonic friend she could have at least said 'hi' to me. I got pissed so I went to the bathroom to cool down.
It felt like a slap in the face. I talk to her everyday. I keep her company and introduce her to everyone. And what did I get. Being ignored.
Two days before today I sat down with her and calmly explained how I feel when she doesn't call to me or come talk to me first. Tanique told me that it's just that she doesn't feel the vibes to call to people every time she sees them. Yet she calls to everyone and gives hugs to guys she met the day before.
I'm getting rejected far too much now. I suspect I need to be more calibrated. A girl even told me that I don't know how to talk to girls. I have been talking to almost every girl I see. In my social circle that is. The major problem is that I have a bad reputation so everyone knows of it. People at school will sit and talk to me IF I APPROACH THEM BUT THEY NEVER TALK TO ME FIRST.
All this rejection is making it increasingly difficult to stave off depression. The way I feel now is terrible. I was even consideringdrdropping out of school because of feeling rejected and lonely so often. Anyone has any advice on what I can do to keep pushing.
At this rate without any success I can only go so long without a SOCIAL LIFE AND FRIENDS before I fall back in depression. Any advise is appreciated.
Thanks
Troy
Troy- You need to go back to
Troy-
You need to go back to basics. If people aren’t enjoying your company and are finding you a social burden, you’re obviously missing the “how to provide value to others” part of things – interesting stories, good sense of humor, effective leadership, knowing where the party is, just being cool in general, etc.
Start with these articles:
But, even MORE importantly, you need to become an extraordinarily keen student of everyone else around you: you need to watch what they’re doing, what they’re saying, what kind of jokes they make, what kind of stories they tell, how they move between talking from one person to another, how frequently they contact and greet each other.
When you lack the ability to learn something intuitively, you must learn EVERY piece of it mechanically. Until you take the time to do this you will be consistently making mistakes by assuming you are doing things right when in fact you are being off-putting to others. You need to observe every detail of how others act and strive to be like them; focus on conforming first, and differentiate yourself only after you’ve mastered blending in and seamlessly being a part of the crowd.
Chase
Approach
Chase, about approaching :
How do you approach a hot girl without appearing like you are
chasing her. What I mean is, let's say there's a really hot girl.
She knows she's hot. And she gets approached by a guy. Will
she not be thinking : " This guy approached me cause I'm hot, it's clear
he wants me! " Most probably, she places the guy as any other ones
who desire her so much.
So how do you approach in a way that she does not think : " This guy surely
thinks I'm sexy. "
Instead, she thinks of something like : " Oh my god, THIS guy approached me !!! I must try not to screw up! "
Well, you've got my point. But I think that most hot girls won't
be thinking like that. They'll rather act in a more bitchy attitude.
Thanks.
P.S. ( Please don't reply with article links on approaching. I've read those. I
just want to clarify this specific point I mentioned above )
Approaching
Anon-
The same way you approach any other girl.
Keep in mind: "really hot" for you is "meh" for other men, just like "really hot" for one of your buddies is "meh" for you.
Also, there are ugly and obese women who view themselves as "really hot", just like there are gorgeous women who are convinced they are ugly.
Focus on approaching every girl the same way you would any other girl, and with time even the ones that you consider "really hot" will open for you the same way the others do too.
Chase
Simply greetings and thanks from Germany
Hallo Chase and team,
I simply want to say thanks for this great site. I learned a lot. I think you arent surprised when I tell you that even married since 23 years the stuff can also work (and work again) with a wife after all that time. I have to admit that I was always good with women even in my teens. When I met my wife I followed all the rules you describe here ( well more or less :-) ) and it works until now. But there is one thing I always did: I was always sexual! Touched her breasts while she was cooking, whispered dirty words in her ear and so on and I can say this: she is more dirty then I am believe or not. Today I touch women, play with eye contact simply because I love it and feel manly that I dont hide and women forgive me even that I am married :-) :-) But there were years where I was the provider (I have twins, boy and girl), and worked for the family. That belongs to a marriage. I have made mistakes and there were times when i was on my knees, I was far away from my wife and simply functioned. I was captured in the cage of rules, moral, dos and donts that were not mine. But it belongs to a man is the best way to free yourself. But you have to accept the challenge. Today I feel stronger than ever and everybody sees it ( I know it from the feedback I get). I follwed consciously your tips and as I said I learned a lot and it works!!!!!
I wish you, your team and all your readers all the very best and dont take women too serious, they dont want it. They want men who are cool and relaxed around them....
Thomas from Germany
This is exactly what I want.
This is exactly what I want. I always wanted to have this intrinsic quality, mostly because I am not this kind of person and people want what they dont have. You said it is advanced so how do I get to that level? I mean, if you want to be good lover, go and have more sex but this? Do I work on my wit, my overall knowledge about as much topics as possible so I can connect with people better, do I lean towards things that are currently cool or trendy, do I just go out and have as many interactions as possible? I never knew how to keep people in my life and I always thought I need to live and do more exciting and cool stuff. Do I become good companion becausd of my life or does my life shape me into a good companion?
Best regards,
fellow reade
Getting the Quality
Anon-
If I had to say "how to get this quality", it'd be "get REALLY comfortable spending time with girls, flirting with girls, teasing girls, and timing your movements with them."
That's some mix of experience, abundance, and just general non-neediness. Some of that you may already have, but other parts you'll only add as you go along.
You can certainly practice with this date going for all of these things if you are a good intuitive learner - e.g., if you go in knowing "okay, I've got to be super comfortable with her to really put her at ease hanging out with me, just be laid back about it, and make it all happen very naturally." And then she comes over and you get a little jumpy and overeager and she gets freaked out and leaves early. And you say okay, well, I know what I did wrong, and I know what I need to fix next time. So you try it again, and the next time it goes a little better. And the time after that goes a little better still.
So, it'd be your call - wait to use this date until you've already got the pieces in place, or offer some girls up to the learning gods and use them as your guinea pigs for learning how to run this sort of date smoothly and properly. Each way has its merits and drawbacks - which ones appeals more though will be up to you.
Chase
The hang out
Hi Chase,
Great articles, interesting thoughts on approaches and closing the deal.
I also have the 'stoner' type roommate who is great at the hang out dates.
In my experience with the number closing, I am usually able to close the number (a good amount on my college campus) but tend to stop hearing from them, via text, when I ask them to 'hang out' or go get food... I plan on trying the more direct approach in the future, as it becomes frustrating collecting all of these numbers and not seeing results. I've experimented with asking almost immediately to hang out (via text) as well as waiting a bit to text or call; I still have no bite.
If I am able to get all of these numbers- is the problem too indirect of an approach? Or is it a text game issue? I feel if I can just get them to this 'hang out' or to even meet up, I will have success.
Thanks for the help,
-J
When you meet resistance to the hang out....do this.....
If she's flighty and doesn't give you her schedule as to when she's free to come over.....end the text or conversation with hey, that's cool, give me a call if you change your mind. And then wait to hear from her again and attempt to make another date at your place.
if you invite her over, and she isn't flighty, but tries to change the date around to going out somewhere instead of your place, end it with......you know what, i've had a hell of a week and i'm really just interested in hanging out. If you're not down for that, give me a call in 2-3 weeks and maybe we can do something more formal then.
If she gives you either of the above, twice in any order (basically, turning down two consequitive attempts to make dates when she reached out to you) you should stop trying to make dates all together. The reason she has done this is because she just simply isn't ready to see you yet, from this point forward it needs to be her idea.
When she does reach out at this point, your objective is to be polite, warm, and respond to her. But be brief and leave the conversation with a "hey, i'm really jammed up right now and need to get back to what I'm doing. It was really great hearing from you. Keep in touch."
Two things will happen, she will either stop calling/texting OR she will make a date.
This will work regardless of whether or not she reached out to you, or whether you reached out to her (but, you should be letting her doing the chasing anyways right? Right.).
last second deny!
Hey Chase,
I am hitting brickwall, I can't wrap my mind on something and getting quite frustrated. Maybe you have some idea what is the issue. tl;dr: long with girl, doing everything but sex.
We date 8-9 months now. She was the one to call me after our first date (intentionally gave her number and declined getting hers). She hardly shows any interest or care, holds back emotions. I am very perceptive and I am able to notice very subtle signals that she cares, likes, and is into me. Second date - she invited me to her place. Kisses, touch, 2 base. Third - she came to my place, got topless by herself - everything but sex. I gave her time, was sexual, warm, exciting bla bla bla... I really enjoyed our time together and I know she does too. We even cooked together at my place, go out regulary together - she chooses movies and we go. I can do whatever i want to but strong "NO!" and fight back when i am trying to get to third base. I even tore her panties, get to third base (she was into it) - but no sex. . . FOR FUCK SAKE WHAT THE FUCK?!!??! Seriously - this is the girl I want but i am getting extremely frustrated. I get hard signals she wants it and then stops me last second. I dont think she is a virgin, atleast she says she isnt. I didnt ask.
I think that you would classify us both as high value, high status. She is 21, me - 30. I want to be boyfriend and father someday. I dont care for chasing bunch of girls - i want this specific one. Maybe important fact - her father abandoned family when she was like 10. She spends half of her childhood in divorce courts... maybe this messed her up so badly.
I want to spend life with her, d'fuck knows what she wants... I'll ask next time she is around.
Its not alot of information but with person like you - you are probably bored by this messege after second sentence. If not - ill provide more info. So any clue ?
No Need
If you just want to hook up with women just tell them the first day. No need to pretend to be there friend.
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