14 Terrible Signs You're Deep in the Friend Zone


We’ve talked about the friend zone on Girls Chase before: why it’s bad, what it looks like, and how to get out of it.

But you’ve asked for more.

You’ve asked for clear signs you can look for that are undeniable proof you’ve careened off the Road to Sexytimes and into the Bog of Asexuality. Irrefutable sign posts that the good times of dreaming about lovingly gazing into one another’s eyes are long behind you, and you now exist solely to stroke her ego as proof that she is so charming, so wonderful, and so hypnotically mesmerizing that great guys like you will just hang around in awe of her... all while she samples her fill of sexy bad boys.

friend zone

Well, never fear. While the greatest danger of the friend zone is your own denial, all the rest we will solve with this enlightening post.

So, provided you can handle the healthy dose of cognitive dissonance you’ll receive from discovering that the girl you were so certain you were just one more funny text message away from talking onto your johnston really doesn’t think of you “that way" and probably never will, let’s dive in...

... and arm you with the 14 Terrible Signs You’re Deep in the Friend Zone.


friend zone

First, we’ll start with seven (7) pretty clear signs that you’re well into the friend zone.

These signs are “pretty clear" because if you’re young, inexperienced with women, or wrapped in a cloak of infatuated denial, it’s still easy to explain these away as her being “hard to get."

But trust, she isn’t hard to get if she’s doing these things.

She just doesn’t want you to get her (ouch).

Here they are...


#1: She Asks You to Go Shopping with Her

“Shopping – great!" you might think at first. “I know it’s good to keep dates cheap – to keep the pressure off – and that you want dates you can have plenty of conversation during. Well, what else is there to do during shopping besides chat?"

Don’t be fooled by the superficial appeal this one holds – an invitation to go shopping with her or, worse still, you actually taking her up on such an invitation, spells disaster for your romantic aspirations.

Why’s that?

Well, what do you know of what a gal’s looking for in a fellow? She’s looking for a strong guy... an attractive guy... a cool guy... and a guy who doesn’t expend unnecessary effort running around doing silly things that he doesn’t enjoy doing, just for her, to spend time with her, because she wants to do them. Especially when she and said guy are not lovers yet.

And what guy wants to go flit about the mall from store to store for four-and-a-half hours watching her try on dresses and stare at shoes? Not any kind of guy she’s desperately lusting over in the midnight hours, you should know that much.

“Oh Fernando," she said lustily, in a breathless, heaving voice, “hand me another pair of shoes to try on to see if they match this dress."

Nope. Doesn’t fit.

When a girl actually respects you as a man, she will never in a million years ask you to go shopping with her when you are not her boyfriend yet. She will wait for you to propose a proper date idea, or she will suggest something that respects your time as well as hers, and will be something the two of you will enjoy equally.

If you need any further convincing on this one, just check out this article, but be warned, there’s no happy ending for our hero here: “The Sad Tale of “Shopping Guy"."


#2: She Only Agrees to See You in Public

You’ve been chasing her for weeks, but she won’t agree to go on a hike in the mountains with you, come over to cook dinner with you, or just hang out and watch a movie?

Surely she just needs more time, right?

If you’ve been on 3+ dates with a girl (and often, fewer than that), and she will only agree to meet you in public venues, you should read that as a loud and clear sign that she is working overtime to prevent your relationship from progressing beyond the ass-out hug stage.

“Keeping it public" is an age-old strategy women have employed since cavemen started getting their own caves to prevent men they valued most as shoulders to cry on and for the gifts, homework help, workplace promotions, party access, and other favors those men shower on them in the hopes of said gifts somehow switching on these women’s sex drives from “making a move" and ruining that whole parade of benefits.

So long as she keeps it in public, you can’t make a move, and are forced to keep chasing her.

After all, you’re wearing her down, right?


#3: She Keeps Inviting You to Group Events

Ah, the group event. Her invitation surely means she likes you!

But how come when you show up, she spends all of five minutes with you, then runs off and socializes with so many other people? Who even invited all of them anyway?

In case you haven’t realized it yet, she did, and that’s the same reason you’re there. She likes a big party, she likes to socialize, and everyone in her Rolodex got an invite.

You thought it meant something special; it just meant she thought you wouldn’t totally ruin the occasion by showing up.

It’s amazing how many men show up to parties and events thrown by hot women just because the girl invited them all. Every single one of them who is there is certain she likes him, and hoping that this will be the night he gets in her pants.

Instead, all the men end up mingling with each other, none of them realizing the only reason all the other men are there is because the same girl texted each of them to come, and all of them are kind of sort of wondering why there aren’t really too many other women there, but are mostly all just busy rubbernecking to see what guy their girl (that is, the one who invited them all) is talking to now, instead of talking to them.

So what should you do when you get a party, networking, gallery opening, charity event, or other hoopla invitation from a girl you want to nail like a piece of birch wood? Nothing. Don’t do party dates. Politely decline, and follow up a few days later to see if she’d like to meet you in person.

If you get some vague excuse about how she’s too busy this week, but there’s another awesome event coming up next weekend and you should totally come out for it, it’s time to press your “delete contact" button (and, if you have that functionality, block her number, to prevent your phone from getting constant event spam rolling in from her).


#4: She Compliments You in Patronizing Ways

If she’s complimenting you, that’s got to be a good thing... or so you’d think.

That means she likes you... doesn’t it? Don’t you have to like someone to compliment them?

Well, let’s play spot the difference. Here are two compliments from two different girls – see if you can tell which girl likes you as a pal, and which girl goes to bed at night dreaming of what your wedding will be like.

Girl A: [in a matter-of-fact tone, with a pleasant, friendly smile] You’re a super cool guy. I’m glad we hang out.

Girl B: [in a nervous, trembling tone, with an infatuated smile] It’s amazing that you know how to draw like that.

No contest, right?

Girls who are enamored with you compliment you less, are more nervous and girly around you, and when they do compliment you, compliment you in impressed, awestruck, spur-of-the-moment ways on things you’ve just said or done.

Girls who just like you as a friend are friendly or platonic in voice tone, are more neutral than they are girly/romantic around you, and compliment you not in impressed, awestruck tones and ways, but usually in patronizing, almost condescending ways, much the way you’d compliment a really precocious kindergartener who said and did neat things. “Hey, that’s a neat-o finger painting; you’re going to be a great artist someday, just keep at it, kid."

Keep an eye on her voice tone, inflection, and facial expressions as she says it, most of all. These are where the real tip-offs lie. However, anytime you get a compliment that remotely sounds like she is passing judgment on you, it’s pretty safe to say that you were friend-zoned somewhere along the lines and you’re only just realizing it now.


#5: She Offers to be Your Wingwoman

This one should be commonsense, but it’s amazing how often guys secretly hope to shack up with their wingwomen... and think said wingwomen want to shack up with them.

Sometimes they do. If you have a very sexually open wingwoman, she may be open to the idea of spending a night with you, in addition to helping you find other women to spend your days and nights with.

And it’s possible that if you’re good with girls, and she ends up watching you pick up and sleep with women who are prettier and higher status than her, preselection kicks in and makes her decide she wants you now after all.

But most of the time, for most guys, she probably doesn’t want to be your girlfriend. And there’s a good chance she may only want to help you meet other girls because she gets a kick out of it, and not because she’s secretly hoping you’ll take her home instead.

The reason why? Women who want to date you don’t try to hook you up with other women.

friend zone

They want less competition for your heart... not more.

If she’s offered to be your wingwoman, chances are it isn’t to get closer to you.

It’s just for kicks.


#6: She’s Always Busy When You Propose a Date

There are genuinely very busy women out there. There are some women who work 80 hours a week, and fly out every other day for business, and not to mention have their new art exhibits opening up at the gallery downtown, and oh by the way, they’re hosting a wine tasting at the new underground wine bar over on Y Street this Thursday. And then they’re traveling down to Cabo for a weekend with the girls.

But let’s be realistic. If you’ve been trying to set up a date with her for weeks, and she’s always busy, even that girl with the crazy schedule we just talked about will find a slot to schedule you in sometime if she genuinely has interest in you.

And she probably isn’t actually that busy.

In all likelihood, she spends at least a couple of nights a week sitting around in her underwear watching Grey’s Anatomy. You’ve almost certainly seen her on Facebook chat some of those times when she was “too busy" to meet you for an iced chocolate, and the odds are good she hasn’t totally cut herself off from all her friends and social life simply because she is so, so busy.

Nope. She’s not too busy for the rest of her life.

She’s just too busy for YOU.

And the part that stings the most is, she almost certainly isn’t too busy for some other men out there... the ones who hit it off with her right.

Take it as a blatant, blaring sign: if she’s been too busy to meet you for quite a while, it isn’t because she’s off saving the world from super villains and has no time for a 30-minute coffee date.

It’s because she’s decided that as great a guy as you are, you just aren’t someone she’s willing to invest the time in to get dressed up and walk to a little café to go talk about her life story to and pursue a potential romance with.


#7: You Mostly Interact with Her from Afar

Related to #6: if you predominantly interact with her over phone, text, chat, social media, smoke signal, passenger pigeon, messages in bottles, or love letters, she isn’t interested.

Not in this day and age.

You mean, being a girl’s texting buddy isn’t the road to hugs, kisses, and passionate nights beneath the stars?

Sadly, yes. You may someday hear a tale of someone who managed to Snapchat his way into some girl’s heart... but if you ever do hear a tale like that, it’s probably just an urban legend.

Connections are formed in-person, not via correspondence.

And you will never make up for a poorly-made first impression over text message, no matter how incredibly witty and interesting you are in that medium.

Your best shot here if you flubbed your first impression (or your last date) is to make a phone call and recover there... but if that’s not enough, and she still keeps giving you the runaround, well, it isn’t because she’s a homebody who only interacts with people via computer and smart phone.

It’s because, like the girl in #6, she just doesn’t want to take the time to meet you.

She likes you better as her pen pal, and as her pen pal you shall stay.

Don’t upset the status quo of being her long-distance chatting friend. You’re good for her in that role.


friend zone

Moving on, we arrive at our next 7 signs: the signs that you’re so far friend zoned you have to really be flying blind not to see these.

Even if you didn’t recognize them before, don’t be too hard on yourself; love is blind, they say, and a guy in the friend zone is a blind, deaf quadriplegic with completely numb skin.

That is to say, you may be forgiven for mistaking the sucking quicksand of the friend zone for a warm, caring embrace... but not anymore after reading these 7 signs.

After these, you’ve got no excuse – so clamp your teeth onto your lifeline and let’s yank you out of there.


#8: You’ve Been “Working on Her" for Months

You didn’t get her phone number the first time you met her in acting class, but you’ll get it the next time? Okay, it happens.

That new girl who just started at your office has been out the door before you’ve had a chance to really talk to her after work the past couple of days, so you’re going to try running into her after lunch next time for an extended chat session instead? Sometimes your strategy just needs a little tweaking; that’s understandable.

You’ve gone out with her three times over the past two weeks and still haven’t sealed the deal, but you’ll get it wrapped up next time? All right; you’re stretching it a little, but she likes you, you’re a champ, go get her.

You’ve been talking to her off-and-on for the past four months, and you’re pretty sure you’re gradually getting her to the place where she might be ready to trade emails? No. NOT acceptable.

Attraction is not something that develops over the course of months or years. It’s something that happens instantaneously; and it expires fast.

If you do not close things out within a relatively rapid window of encountering a girl you like who likes you back, rather than dial up your efforts and turn winning her affection into some kind of multi-stage love-military campaign, with reinforcements called in from the gift division and strategic planning sessions with all your best mates, it’s time to cut your losses and move on.

At absolute most, give yourself two (2) months to take a girl as your lover if you are a pure beginner. Pure. No one else gets this much leeway. If you have some idea what you’re doing with women, it’s a month; and if you’re pretty good, it’s two weeks.

Anything more than that, and you’re just chasing phantoms... and disinterested women.


#9: She Asks You to Help Her Meet Other Men

If you’re deeply, desperately in denial, it’s possible you might see this as some sort of ploy to get you to chase after her... or something.

But it’s not. If she asks you to help her meet other men, it really, honestly is because she wants you to help her meet other men.

Which also means she feels you are so far friend-zoned that:

  1. You won’t be offended an ounce that she’s asked you for your help in aiding her to secure a mate, and

  2. You’re the kind of guy who would willingly sacrifice his time to enable a pretty girl to mate with some other man than himself

If you’ve made it this far, bravo; you’ve achieved Friend Zone Level 99, an honor few men have had the pleasure of attaining.

Get out now before she consumes your soul.


#10: She Tries to Hook You Up with Ugly Friends

Truth be told, you’re probably pretty friend zoned too if she’s trying to hook you up with her cute friends.

But if she’s trying to hook you up with her plain or ugly friends? You’re so utterly friend zoned that she doesn’t even view you as worthy of her better-looking friends.

Hang your head in shame, friend; you have subjected yourself to this abuse for far too long.

Girls who respect you at least a little bit will deem you worthy of their cuter friends, or at least will intuit that your standards will not allow you to end up with any plain or below-average girls, and won’t even try to set you up with them.

For a girl to try to fix you up with Plain Jane or Ugly Judy, she needs to view your worth as a mate as about equal to their level, which is... none at all, really.

Not so enviable a place to be.


#11: She Cries to You About How Bad Her Man Is

... or, worse still, her crush, whom she isn’t even sleeping with; or, some fling she had where the guy won’t even see her again.

If you’re here, you’re in some pretty dire straits.

friend zone

Oh, sure; very occasionally, you can get some rebound action by playing the “shoulder to cry on" role for a sufficiently wounded girl coming out of a sufficiently damaging affair. Chances are, she goes back to the bad boy boyfriend anyway, and ends up returning you to the friend pile as soon as she does.

And most of the time, you won’t even get that far. She’ll just cry to you about him, and as soon as she’s finished dumping all those bad emotions on you, she’ll get back together with him and leave you with nothing but a damp spot on your t-shirt shoulder for the effort.

If a woman is crying to you about another man, it isn’t because she wants you to save her from him. It’s because she wants to be with him, and can’t, so she needs to have SOME man around to at least reassure her that there are men out there who will accept her presence.

It isn’t about wanting love, romance, or sex from you. She just wants you to tell her it’s okay... while she waits for one of the guys she actually wants those other things from to give her a call and order her over to his place for a round of shiver-me-timbers.


#12: She Says She Likes You as a Friend/Brother

Don’t mistake this for flirting with you, teasing you, or trying to send you mixed signals.

If a girl tells you she likes you as a friend or (about 20x worse) as a brother, it isn’t some kind of girly game she’s playing with you.

She actually literally just means she views you as a platonic friend or as a kind of extended family member, with whom any sort of romantic or sexual liaison would basically be incestuous, and she would never in a septillion years think of you that way.

You might be worried about how you should react to this. Whether you should laugh it off as a joke when she tells you you’re like a brother, or take this opportunity to open up your heart and express your true feelings to her.

But that’s not the right question to ask here. The right question is, “How fast should I run, and how far away should I run to?"

The answer is, “As fast as you can muster, and as far as you can go."


#13: She Asks Why She Never Meets Men Like You

No, this isn’t some secret code for, “I so desperately want you, and this is my oblique way of telling you!"

This is just a sweet-sounding way of passing you a “compliment"... while simultaneously announcing the you are the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of the types of men she goes for.

If your mind is working overtime trying to convert every little piece of communication she gives you into a sign that she must certainly be as infatuated with you as you are with her, you’re going to tend to read this as if she is saying, “I just randomly stumble into my relationships, and the lottery that is life keeps forcing me into relationships with all the wrong men. I totally hate it!"

But the fact of the matter is, if she’s remotely attractive, she constantly has a cornucopia of men competing for her attention, attraction, love, and sex... including you.

And from among ALL those men, she chooses her mates.

She doesn’t clumsily stumble into them, like some kind of drunk hobo crashing into a display of soup cans at the village grocery.

She very carefully picks and chooses exactly the men she wants to date.

And now, she’s telling you those men she very carefully picks and chooses are your polar opposites.

What do you think your chances here are? [hint: they are the polar opposite of “awesome"]


#14: She Finds the Idea of Sexual You to be “Cute"

This one usually is going to come up somewhat indirectly (she’s probably not going to say, “You? Sexual? Oh, how adorable!"), but you’ll see it pop up instead during normal conversation, as she comments on your dating exploits. e.g.,

You: So, I asked out Jamie Lynn today...

Her: Really? Aw, that’s so cute! What did she say? Are you going out?

or

Her: Have you ever thought about going on a date with Brianna?

You: [thinking, “But I want you!"] Uh, no... why?

Her: I don’t know; I just think you two would be adorable together!

If a woman thinks that the very idea of you as a sexual man is something “cute" or “adorable", that means that she views your sexuality as being about on par with that of a bunny rabbit’s, puppy dog’s, or gerbil’s.

That is to say, something sweet, goofy, silly, and totally and utterly not even in the same ballpark as her.

The men she likes? Powerful, potent, fertile, fecund insemination machines who make her knees buckle and her heart skip a beat.

You? A cute little yipping fox terrier whose tiny reproductive equipment and stunted mating efforts are something so harmless, unthreatening, and child-like to think about that she actually gets a little thrill of asexual cutesiness just considering.

This is the ultimate sex-related insult you can possibly receive as a human: to have a member of the opposite sex communicate to you in no uncertain terms that he or she does not even view you as an eligible mating partner; you aren’t even on the table for consideration, and the very idea of you engaging in mating behavior seems cute, funny, and quaint.


friend zone

Want to know the magic pill answer?

Cut contact and get out of there.

friend zone

Hanging out in the friend zone is like spending time in a guerilla warzone without a platoon to back you up. You’re just asking to get mowed down and bled to death.

Really, there’s no winning there. You’re fighting a losing battle, for spoils of victory that have long since been captured by someone else moving faster than you.

If she starts to chase after you once you’ve checked out? Good; let her chase.

Do things on your terms, and only on your terms.

If she won’t play ball, leave it be; it was going exactly nowhere anyway.

But most of all, it’s time to start meeting new women... because you won’t be able to stop thinking about her until you do.

And until you do, you will always be in danger of reentering the deadly... the humiliating... and the mind-bendingly, reality-alteringly, fist-clenchingly horrifying

Friend Zone.

So stay out of there. Keep safe. Watch your back.

And don’t let some girl suck up your time, energy, and life force to stroke her ego, when you could be out meeting women who are genuinely interested in you as a prospective partner instead.

Life’s too short for that nonsense – don’t you think?

Your friend always (without the “zone"),
Chase Amante

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

Nice article.


Truly nice article Chase, i have recognized some of those that have happened to me.

But as of lately i haven`t noticed those characteristics..
That might mean i am not in the friend zone, but it means i make mistakes in other areas which i try to improve..

Anyway, the number 13 struck me a bit.

"#13: She Asks Why She Never Meets Men Like You"

This is interesting, because the exact opposite happened to me.

We were on the bus together, she wanted a massage on her arms, i gave her that, i figured what the heck, at least she will get comfortable with me touching her..

Afterwards we exited the bus and she handed her purse over and asked me to hold it..

I held it for 4-5 seconds and replied the following:
"Okay you`ve used me enough, the only reason i am not putting your purse down is because it is bad luck to have a purse on the ground"
This was said with a small smile, slight closed of eye lids making eye contact and teasing voice by me..

Just as that happened we continued on our path and she replied:
"i haven`t met anyone that opposes me like this"

At the time i felt it was a good compliment, because frankly i don`t think most men who go on a date with her are being bad boys, mostly they are being way to nice guys...

What do you think Chase ?

Chase Amante's picture

Someone Like You

Author

Anon-

Yeah, that's not a bad compliment, especially if she says it in a turned-on tone. I maybe made that one a little too vague in the article; I meant it in the sense of a girl saying rather patronizingly to a guy something along the lines of, "How come I never meet anyone as great as you?"

Girls verbalizing that you're a challenge is a sign that they're a little overly analytical - sometimes that makes them harder to bed, because they're running everything through their logical filters, and if sleeping with you isn't part of a rational plan for them they won't do it; other times though, you'll have girls say something like this to you in a turned-on voice deeper into a seduction, and they're really just expressing to you verbally that they are "giving in" because you've outmatched them in the game of seduction (which is what they want - they want you to win, because then they win, too). In this case, she sounds like she was just analyzing you aloud early on, which could've been a good thing, or could've been neutral depending on her mood (somewhat hard to tell from the comment). But doesn't sound like it was a bad thing at all.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

The P-Train


Ah, here's one to share with friends still stuck in the ghetto of Friend Zone City. Get those sucka's out and rollin' down the tracks towards Playahaven. Next stop: Människagatan -- what what!

uForia's picture

Motivation behind your blogs?


Ive been a long time reader of your articles, and I can't help but be skeptical at times. Your posts often have a tone of disliking competition from other men, and what makes you even want to help other men? Wouldn't you be worried that other men will take your girl eventually due to the popularity of this blog? Or does making money off this site offset the potential costs seen there? I know whenever other men ask me for advice, I always tell them to be nice and confident, of course knowing that the advice won't help at all.

What really are your motivations for your website?

Alcaeus's picture

Way Beyond


I initially, had the same thought-cycle when I first found the website that of which I wanted to keep it to myself. I was scared others would find it, and my competition would only make it harder for me. But those days are over...

After a couple months of focusing on my fundamentals, I out class men who are double my age in posture, charisma, and voice. It's mind numbing.

Yesterday I was at a social event and I noticed the other men who were in the group stiffing up and walking robotically in an effort to mimic my sexy walk. It reminded me of the first weeks I set out to refined my walk and posture and saw these guys going through the same growing pains...

I was happy for them, and flattered to be their role model (if only temporarily) but I knew, they knew, and the girls numbers who I received knew, I was in a class all by myself. I was happy that they were working on themselves, and at the end of the event , even refereed them to the website (your welcome Chase ;).

Its just that when you get so good your unphased by other men, because just purely reading the articles doesn't net you SMV, you have to mentally and physically condition yourself as well.

Using myself as a micro example, I can confidently tell you, Chase is so beyond the average man when it comes to SMV, that he gets/got the girls of his dreams and can confidently walk about the earth a king in his own sense. His decision to share his knowledge was a business and selfless initiative that will make men and women both happy and if he strikes a little profit on the side, that's a plus too.

-Alcaeus

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Motivation behind your blogs?

Author

uForia-

I did an article response to part of your comment here: “Real Empiricists Test”… although don’t take it too personal, I had a few other fellows who’ve waded onto this site more in mind - this comment was a good jumping-off point into stressing testing rather than taking me at my word.

A more matter-of-fact less stern-lecturer reply is that Girls Chase is my company, and the main differentiator for the site and its number one marketing channel is its articles and content. It’s not the easiest business in the world (if I had to start over, I’d have done something else), but due to the debt I acquired on other failed ventures I sort of got locked into this one and had to make it work. On a personal level, it is also a vehicle for affecting others’ lives in a positive way, which is something I find meaningful and enjoyable. I’ve always been an advice-giver, since childhood… just default personality types I suppose.

Re: competition, I’m a pretty competitive guy, and competition motivates me to get my ass in gear like little else. If I have to choose between “not competitive” and “just barely beatable”, I will go with the latter, because the former is uninspiring and will lead to me lazing about. So, not so much that I dislike competition as that I get annoyed around competition, and then set to work finding ways to beat that competition.

The material on the site itself I’m not terribly concerned about training up legions of competitive men… most guys come, read a few things, and leave. Some guys implement enough to reach an intermediate level. Almost no one will take the information here and push himself to a level where he’s a real competitive threat to any guy who’s very good with girls. Not because he can’t; just because most guys aren’t motivated enough for it, and will find a girl they like enough midway through their journey, and drop out of the race to go be with her. You don’t need to be a game superman to find a pretty awesome girl; you just have to be good enough, and that’s about as good as most guys will put in the work to get. At the upper echelons of ability with women, there are far more very appealing women to go around than there are men for those women to swoon over.

Chase

Joe R.'s picture

Having female friends?


I've looked at 2014 Forbes list (1600 people) and you can see that 99% of self-made billionaires are men. It's probably similar thing with moderately successful business owners (didn't found exact data).
There are obviously exceptions with women, but I think if you have more male friends, you less likely to waste time being in the friends zones and concentrate on doing more productive things.
Am I wrong about this? I've always tried to keep the number of female friends as low as possible. Did you found secret value in having a lots of female friends that you can't find in having male friends?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Having female friends?

Author

Joe-

Yes, that's been about my experience. I made a bunch of female friends for a number of years when I was focused on really upgrading myself socially, but once I focused most of my self-development on business, my female friends dropped off more and more into the background and I found myself with really only just male friends anymore. The last close non-girlfriend female friend I had was a business partner, and we really were more business partners than friends. I still retain old female friends and shoot them an email every now and again or grab a drink with them when we find ourselves in the same town, but that's about it, and I see the same with my business-focused friends.

I think it's primarily what spheres you inhabit. For, say, a college kid, whose whole world is school, he'll tend to have female friends because males and females in college have reasonably similar interests, activities, and the like. If he's going out often once he's out in the working world, hitting a lot of parties, going to clubs, doing networking events, etc., he'll often have a lot of female friends too, who have a similar focus to him there. But if he starts focusing on business, he's entered a realm that most women don't concern themselves with, because it's predominantly a male sphere - men start businesses to accumulate resources in order to maximize their reproductive success. A woman who's worth $10,000 and a woman who's worth $10 million really don't have too much difference in terms of reproductive success, and the risk of failure (90% of businesses fail within the first 10 years of their lives) and the huge amount of sacrifice and stress involved in building a business makes it not worth it for women... so if you spend your time in this sphere, you will find your path diverges and you and your female friends go separate ways.

Chase

jj123's picture

THANKS!!!


I appreciate it, Chase. Well laid out, quickly done, absolutely HILARIOUS!

My only big question at this point is: of the 14 terrible signs, how many must there be for a guy to conclude he's in the castrated ZONE? I can see the combo of #11 and #13 as being enough, absent any of the other tell-tales being present. I mean, I guess she can still be OK with meeting for dinner, drinks, even cooking at his place, but she'll nonetheless go for his padded shoulder with her face, rather than elsewhere on his anatomy.

Now oftentimes when FZ'd guys pull the plug on the ego-stroking, free emotional tampon therapy, she'll badger him asking why...should he just be upfront and state that he's looking for another kind of relationship and can't spare the time for her?

Michal's picture

Well, after readin this site


Well, after readin this site for some time, it is sometimes more technical than it needs to be. And the reason is, when you get really, really goot at something, you have different point of view on that thing which makes it harder to remember exactly how you looked at it before. I mean, you know how you looked at girls before you found this site, but I would say you cant pin point exact thoughts.

So, using this, I would say some signs can be missinterpreted by guys. I met a girl once on my way to class and she was like a body without a soul which was unusual. So talked to her, I cheered her up and she was happier. I dont think you can count this as being a shoulder to cry on. But some guys may take this and count it that way. She would not ask me to hear her out because we were not really friends, we were more like acquaintances.

With friendships and stating you want more, there was an article about this how to cut contact. Where you quit for some time and then come back changed. So she starts to get curious and starts to screen you and test you and challange you again. Contrary, I always heard how you need to show her you want to be more than just a friend. Take her out and make a move. But my guess is many of FZ guys made their move and got shut down so they sit there in FZ telling themselves it is better than nothing and that one day she will see their true power.

However, my guess would be, this "show her you want more" can be applied only in a situation where you two basically behave like a couple and she is afraid something happens and she loses her best friend. So then you can say "well I guess I got the wrong idea then" and start restraining. And she will then seek you out and will have sex with you because it seems to her she already lost you as a friend and this is the only way to keep you around.

However, with really beautiful girls, one sign can be a red flag already. There are some obvious ones, like that being busy. If she was really interested, she would find some time. If she never initiates contact and if she does, it is only something she needs help with... well...

But I would say some inexperienced girls will invite you to parties to see you because they want you yet dont know how to force you to make a move.

So it comes down to - be inteligent about information you acquire.

Chase Amante's picture

Castrated Zone

Author

JJ-

I'd give a guy a cutoff more at amount of face time he's spent in a few of these roles without getting to physical intimacy than a specific number of signs. If, say, you meet a girl, and tells you you're a great friend and won't meet up with you in person for a few weeks, that maybe looks bad, but if you then get her out with you a few days after this and take her to bed, safe to say you weren't as bad off as it looked or you thought.

A quick-and-dirty yardstick may just be any amount of time greater than a month you spend time in the "platonic friend" role, and you're probably not going to get anywhere with a given girl outside of divine intervention (or a real reversal in your game skills / level of preselection).

Chase

jj123's picture

How about this...


Chase,

Thanks for replying. Let's say she starts right away by complaining about being torn and wounded by a past relationship with another guy (say, in the last few months). In order to avoid the friend zone, would it be alright to say to her: "I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. Relationship endings are always rough. It sounds like you need more time to heal, and I don't want it to feel like I'm pressuring you right now. Let's get to know each other more at a later time instead when you're feeling better." This way, she doesn't feel pressured to start dating or hop in bed. But more importantly she won't assume that because you're there to listen to her, she can dump you in the friend zone after she gives the "I'm not ready to date again" speech. Would this make sense?

V's picture

#5


In my personal experience, when women introduce you to their friends and try to set you up, it isn't a death knell for seduction. My first time was with a girl who had first tried to set me up with her friend (her friend wasn't good looking either).

I politely declined and told her that I wasn't interested in her friend. Less than three weeks later, she asks me to hang out and one thing leads to another. After, she tells me that she had a crush on me the whole time.

Maybe this is an exception, but I doubt it. The attraction just seemed too strong.

I'm not sure why, but this has happened other times too.

Do you know why this happens Chase?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: #5

Author

V-

Some girls occasionally use this one as a test of your standards, and you turning down their friend lower status / less attractive can serve as a message to them that says, "Okay, good; he's actually on my level."

It can also sometimes be a "girl-is-frustrated-for-you-not-making-a-move-and-wants-to-subtly-take-a-jab-at-you" thing, where she's essentially throwing her hands up and saying, "Okay, well, you're not interested in me - how about my ugly friend?" If you keep your composure here and turn it down calmly and politely, when she cools back off again, she can sometimes swing back around.

Additionally, I've seen with very inexperienced girls a thing sometimes where they will feel out your availability by proposing something with one of their friends. Based on your response, they can use that to judge whether you're fair game or not and might be receptive to their advances.

Those are what I'd consider to be the exceptions to the rule - if she's just feeling you out, or (possibly) is taking a jab at you because she's mad you haven't moved faster with her, but may calm down again later. If she doesn't soon take initiative herself, or respond to your attempts when you do, it's usually safe to rule this one a cut-and-dry friend zone signpost.

Chase

The M's picture

Excitement, "masculine" behaviors, slow loading time


Hey Chase!

Well, I've had plenty of female friends, but fortunately haven't received most of these. I did get a #4 once, though - a "Good job, you did it!" as if I were a little kid. Ouch.

Actually, this just reminded me of two questions I had:

1) When I'm high energy and excited, who kind of vibe is most attractive? (e.g. probably not "mad scientist") Do you have any advice on how to cultivate that?

2) If you exhibit "masculine" behaviors that separate you from the other sex, does that increase attraction? Fixing cars, woodworking, blacksmithing, fist-pumping with friends (lol), etc.? And if you don't display or care for those behaviors, does it make you less attractive or appear less masculine?

Finally, the site loading time suddenly became a bit sluggish recently - it often takes a solid 10 seconds for a page to fully load, on a fast internet connection. I think it started about a couple of weeks ago. So maybe you made a change then that's slowing it down?

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Excitement, "masculine" behaviors, slow loading time

Author

M-

I'd suggest, when feeling excited and high energy, going with the talkative vibe from this article: "3 Flavors of Sexy: Brooding, Smooth, and Talkative Vibes." If you can redirect that energy into focused intensity, you can tap into one of the other ones, but when it's spilling out of you you've got to go talkative.

Masculine behaviors I'd modulate by the kind of girl you're talking to, and what she values. e.g., some women prefer men who engage in more intellectual masculine pursuits, while others prefer men in more hands-on ones. That'd be like the professional girl with a good education preferring a man who's building his own business to one who's great at carpentry on first meeting, vs. the girl working as a bartender who can't really relate to a business owner, but thinks the fact that you're a carpenter who builds things with his bare hands is hot. Once you're in a relationship though, all things masculine tend to become attractive, since the girl already likes and agrees with your character and more manly things, hands-on and intellectual alike, just add to the allure.

Re: site load time, I've been seeing that too; sometimes just reloading the page is enough, but intermittently the whole site is slowing down. We've talked to our host and it isn't always clear what's causing it. Our developer is working pretty hard on upgrading our site software to a more modern version, so hopefully when that's complete, site load time sees a jump and the slowdowns quit (it may actually be his work on the development site causing some of the recent slowdown though, too).

Chase

Taco's picture

A different style to this article!


Hey Chase, very insightful read! I noticed that this article had a different tone in the writing and correct me if I'm wrong-it seemed that you adopted a much more sarcastic, "tough love" approach to your choice of words that didn't try to seem too filtered (which made me feel even more vehement about the friend zone, so I'll say it worked haha).

I found one part that seemed to capt my attention: #8 when you say you should give yourself at most 2 months trying to get a girl to be your lover. Does that same dynamic apply if she's in the same classes as you in college? I've read your posts on dating in college but when it comes to making girls your romantic lover and not necessarily dating them does the same sort of stuff apply? I guess you could say the situation that I am in involves a girl whose number I got but barely text even though she seems interested to an extent and the worry comes from not making a move quick enough and thus attraction expires (although I don't get to talk to her too often as well). I feel as if though the college dynamic can be slightly varied from everyday cold approach, just a thought that goes through my head when reading a blog. Thanks and keep up the awesome work!

Chase Amante's picture

Social Circle Time Lines

Author

Taco-

Yes, different tone to this one - when you're writing, it's fun sometimes to change it up and not always be doing the same thing, to keep it fresh! Also nice if you're a reader, I think, to get some stylistic variety. This was the sort of post where it's easy to do a more humorous, "pal giving you a ribbing" style of delivery.

Timelines on social circle are different, yeah. The counter doesn't really start until you really engage with a girl; if all you have previously with her are short interactions (a little light banter, some small talk), the counter hasn't commenced because she doesn't really "know" you. Once you spend a healthier chunk of time with her and get to real rapport, that's when the countdown begins, and at that point the length of time you should allow yourself is about the same. The exceptions are if you don't mind slow gaming it and competing for the boyfriend role, which you can do more effectively in social circle (though for the sheer saving yourself from neurosis of it, I'd recommend starting as a lover and moving fast so you'll know whether or not you get her a few weeks in instead of 4 or 5 months in), or if it's a very loose social circle with a lot of hooking up going on between longtime acquaintances (e.g., fraternity & sorority pairings, etc.).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Compliments


Hey Chase, another great article.......keep 'em coming........
Can you please offer your opinion on a few compliments that i had been receiving from a girl back in a classroom atmosphere? I had to attend this 15 day course for speaking skills. The thing is that on stage people say i speak really well and have a good manner of delivering speeches to a crowd.
So this activity was to be done in a group and this really cute girl comes in a hovering sort of manner and says to no one in particular about what topic they got and how its going. I don't know whether it was just cause everyone was busy or something, but no one responded to her and it was a pretty loud atmosphere so no one was paying attention i guess and quite frankly speaking none from the group were people who actually ever spoke to her. My personality in this classroom setting was one of an aloof guy who never spoke until approached. (I am trying to change a lot in myself so i overdid it, i guess, as a beginner.)
So I don't know why, took this as an approach invitation and i answered. So as we continued speaking about her interests and mine......I could tell the conversation was getting into that trance like state you spoke of.....you know, where the conversation becomes so deep that the rest of the world would be slowly cut-off. One thing a noticed she was kind of playing with her hair during the conversation but I observed that that's just something she did all the time. Then, some one from the group told me to come back and it was like a snap out of something great. Then I did something completely stupid, I broke circle.
But again after a few hours she approached me again and again we continued speaking quite deeply and heatedly she told me where she was from and where she lived currently.....not much flirting going on then. Then again some one from the group called and i broke circle again!!!!! damn.
Anyway, over the course of the remaining days she complimented me once on my opinion during a speech. However, the next day i beckoned her to come and sit with me and she shyly refused and smiled and signaled me that she was ok there.
I wanted to ask her out but I wanted to first check out whether this chick was really into me or not. I could not figure it out. Sadly, i hardly ever spoke to her after that, mostly due to the personality that i had started out with in that environment. She had this group that she used to hang out with and no one else in the entire classroom not with any other guy or anything.
Then at the last day we were given an activity where people were to speak about the qualities of another person. So when my turn came, she was the only girl in the classroom to raise her hand and say. "Anon' has a great quality and that is to compliment others about their good qualities and he is learning to play the guitar and how to dance on his own." After that I never took her number or anything and no other words were exchanged between us other than this during those 15 days. The course concluded and she's gone now. Personally, I feel it was a friend-zone thing but I thought I should ask your opinion on this stuff.
Now I know i let her slip away but i just wanted to know what were here compliments all about? Was she just being nice or was that a non-friendzone compliment that you discussed about? Please tell me so that i can improve upon my skills, the next time I meet a girl like her.
Thanks in Advance. Love your work and your support.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Compliments

Author

Anon-

Sounds like she was probably fairly attracted on day 1; however, when you deep dive a girl, you need to be careful about going too deep without giving her sufficient satisfaction for the vibe you're building up with her. Generally, a little deep diving is good when followed up with a date request / phone number swap; a lot of deep diving is good when done on a date where you're clearly ending things on your terms, or in which you invite her home as things are peaking. If you're not ready to ask a girl out, it's better to keep things to light banter and small talk to prevent her associating deep connection with non-sexual / assertive action on your part.

So, if you met a girl in a similar situation in the future, you'd stick to doing only a few minutes of deep diving, wrapping up with telling her the two of you should grab a bite sometime and swapping cell numbers with her, then really getting into some deep rapport on your date (followed by you wrapping up the date yourself, or inviting her home with you).

In this case, the girl's compliments in class were almost certainly an effort to "send you a message" that she still liked you and thought well of you, and to give you an opportunity to reconnect with her (You, after class: "Hey, Amy, thanks for the nice compliments during class!" Her: "You're welcome Anon; it's all true!" You: "Yeah, sorry I've been kind of shut up in my own world recently; we should grab lunch or a hot chocolate"). When girls go out of their way to give you an "in" like that, it's usually a mixture of a little remaining attraction, and some interest in you as a friend. The progression often goes: girl really likes you on first meet --> her expectations get built up, but nothing happens --> girl's attraction cools off a bit --> with no further interaction, and you not chasing, she gets re-intrigued --> now she isn't exactly smoldering with attraction, but she's sufficiently intrigued to know she'd like it if you were in her life in some capacity, even if she isn't sure what capacity that is just yet.

You still might've had a chance to pull something off here, had you jumped right after the opening she made for you with the classroom compliments, then executed well after that. The better and higher probability move would've been to simply ask her out after a few minutes of connecting with her the first time you met.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Thank You Chase


Ok......I know that Chase......I know i did a pretty bad thing by not asking her out immediately. But because of your feedback I now at least know exactly how much to deep dive a girl. The main dilemma I was facing was whether those compliments were friendly or flirty. Your comment cleared things up for me, thanks.In the classroom environment which i described in my comment. I was mostly in a mode I'd like to describe as 'test mode' where I was simply testing different techniques and gauging their respective reactions. The reactions I got from different girls was quite fun!!!!!!!! :) You were right about that too, its quite fun to try new stuff while learning the art of game. The thing is the day i received that public compliment was the last day of the session. I did a bad thing by not going for a number close but I guess i learnt something from it and there's no telling that i won't meet her in my profession sometime in the future :D. (I'm pursuing the CA profession by the way, which is an equivalent of CFO or CFA in America i think.) I will work upon my aggressiveness in my future conversations with the opposite sex.
Thank you so much for all your advice and support Chase.
Wishing you all the success in the world, I hope your site grows to the highest level of viewership

Wolf's picture

Wanting to be social and talking more


Hey do you think you could make an article about wanting to be a social guy and how to be a social guy? (While still being sexy of course)

I don't like talking much, I kind of hate it. I really don't care about how people that much to talk. But if I want to get better with women I have to keep talking to people I don't care about.
Thanks man

Wolf's picture

To further elaborate, I


To further elaborate, I don't even want to do the date things with girls. I just want them to come over my house or I go to there's and we can talk there. Im a pretty cold un social dude that needs help in actually caring to talk to people. I just don't feel like talking. I can be the life of the party most of the time, it's actually hard for me not to be. But when it comes to people I don't know or chicks I have to spit game at. I really don't feel like going through that effort. I just want to say hi, get her number and fuck. Don't want to sound like an asshole, but im just being honest.

Chase Amante's picture

Not Being Interested in Talking

Author

Wolf-

I can do an article on "how to be social", although your problem seems to be more a motivational one than anything. I'm not sure there's a very good fix out there if you really aren't interested in talking to other people... the better way to direct your efforts might be to focus on developing a style of game that minimizes the amount of talking you do (say, looking exclusively for potential fast hookups). Though, even that requires some amount of conversation.

The other thing you can do is simply work on inflating your value up as high as you can get it: focusing hard on putting on muscle, getting amazing style, killer nonverbals, building up status, prestige, wealth, and power, and the like. The more solid you are in all these departments, the less talking is generally required of you before women are ready to jump into bed with you. The shortest, least verbose path to the bedroom lies in top shelf fundamentals.

Chase

Wolf's picture

Emotions


Chase, think you also make an article about forgetting your emotions, not letting them distract or hinder you and pushing through them? I know you can't get rid of emotions, but how do you handle them and do what you gotta do?

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Freedom from Emotion

Author

Wolf-

I can do one on that (and in fact, was recently thinking about doing such an article). I have it noted down now... might do it soon. In the meantime, if you haven't seen it yet, check this one out for a partial solution: "Emotion Regulation in Your Friendships and Relationships."

Chase

Yink's picture

Finding A Girl I Genuinely Like!!!


Hi Chase,great article once again.However I do have a question for you:how do you find a new girlfriend(who you really like) in order to replace an ex.I just broke up with my ex because of something she did and I don't want to get back with her again(it has happened before),so I need another gf to get over her but the problem is that I am really picky and its not everyday I see a girl I genuinely like.Just like you said in an article,most of your relationships have started through love at first sight.Now there are many girls in my college but I don't want to settle for less(just for the sake of replacing my ex) but at the same time I need a Girlfriend who will get me excited so that I don't get sucked back into my previous relationship.Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Finding A Girl I Genuinely Like!!!

Author

Yink-

That is the million dollar question, isn't it! The material on this site is designed to put you in a position to do exactly this. Once you've arrived at the place where you can quickly and easily replace a girlfriend with an equal or better girlfriend, you've reached absolute abundance, and the dating world is your oyster.

For getting yourself in position to easily replace girlfriends, this article is designed to be the complete guide to that: "How to Find the Woman You Most Want: A 10-Step Process."

Chase

V's picture

Getting Girls from high school


Hey chase, is it possible to sleep with girls that had crushes on you for years during high school that you didn't sleep with? I didn't reject them, we just never slept together and they've liked me all four years of high school (while sleeping with other men and having boyfriends) .

I've been out of school for a few years and some have seen me and got my number and others have asked my friends about me ( I didn't make moves with them because I was sleeping with other girls) . All of them have kids and aren't married, so I guess they'll try to mess with other dudes sooner or later. Is it possible to still sleep with them and how should I try to sleep with them?

Also, what makes you think a person seems slow?

Thank you!!!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Getting Girls from high school

Author

V-

I haven't done it myself, just because I've spent zero time around high school classmates since graduating from high school aside from a 5-year reunion I attended, with a really terrible, painful throat cold and a girlfriend in-tow I'd brought home with me for Thanksgiving, so no opportunities to attempt anything there! However, I've seen plenty of reports from guys who've done so, and high school reunions are known as hookup-fests for a reason. You should be able to pull this off with a little effort.

As for someone seeming slow... usually it's a mix of reaction times + the content of what they say (things that make it sound like they don't grasp the concepts being discussed at a very high level, have difficulty parsing what others are talking about, are routinely off base in understanding the point of what others are saying and think the point is something other than what it is, etc.).

Chase

jj123's picture

Another item


Chase,

Do you see the following social scenario in today's dating/marriage landscape?

Men are expected to commit to women in a relationship, and will find all sorts of ways to enforce this. This is because of the pop psych notion that men are pigs, and will stray at the first opportunity. But at the same time, there's also the underlying feminist notion that men oppress women, and will use marriage and relationships to carry out this oppression. Therefore, for many of the women, the equal insistence by a guy that she be totally committed as well, is often treated as controlling and possessive behavior on his part, on a practical level. If she wants a night on the town, dressed like a slut, once a week with the other girls, going to bars to get drunk with slick dudes who will hit on her, a guy she's with is expected to smile and be OK with it. If she wants her exes in her life, as well any male "friends" she's fooled around with before, well, open up your pad to them! Anything less, and you're a swine!

Chase Amante's picture

Selfish Girls

Author

JJ-

I don’t know that I’d call that a social feature so much as the behavior that you’ll see from individual selfish women (and men). Selfish partners tend to focus on limiting the other partner’s freedom while retaining theirs. It seems like it’s more common to see women doing this in long-term relationships, probably because the men who employ selfish relationship tactics stick to shorter-term relationships or don’t have much need or desire to engage in long-term relationships at all, though I have seen a number of men who take this approach with their long-term relationships too (woman is kept on a very short leash, while they act indignant if she ever tries to restrain their freedom a bit).

The women you see the most extreme version of this behavior from (the example of the party girl going out and getting hit on while expecting her man to just suck it up, then flying into a rage herself if the man starts flirting with other women) tend to be personality disordered, and a small but visible proportion of the population. They also make for good television / film antagonists because they’re so easy to hate… the modern day version of the entitled princess. Unfortunately, the effect on how ubiquitous people think they are due to their outsized presence in the media, shock stories, etc., makes it seem like they’re crawling the streets in packs, looking for weak-willed men to bend to their wills by the wagon-full. It’s like the terrorism paranoia or bird flu panic or whatever latest fear is drummed up by the media; a handful of people have actually been affected, but this is what everyone fears, while being utterly nonplussed by the actual dangers that kill tens or hundreds of thousands or millions every year (car accidents, household accidents, regular seasonal flu, eating too much junk food, etc.).

The best way of avoiding these sorts of women is simply by knowing the red flags to look out for:

... and refraining from entering into relationships with women you meet or who frequent venues that have the highest crazy-girl headcount:

It can also be worthwhile to examine your media diet if you find your perceptions being too distorted by what you're watching or reading: Bitter Women: No, They Are Not “Everywhere”, as meeting women outside of bars/clubs/online dating will tend to produce a very different impression of women than the one you'll get meeting them in these places, and exposing yourself to too much media focused on women you meet in these places can make you feel like this is how all women behave, and like there's some sort of terrible woman epidemic, when it's really more like a small but badly behaved and highly visible minority population doing its best to give an entire sex a bad name.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Questions


Hey Chase,

Nice article, this stood out well for me. I just have a couple questions that I hope you could clear up for me:

1. When you use a direct opener and say something like "Hey I saw you sitting here and I think your the prettiest girl here, I'm Tom", what do you do after so that it doesn't become awkward between you both and that she because almost instantly attracted to you? So like how to get into a great conversation right off the bat.

2. If I was going to use the question opener "Excuse me, are you single?", if she says no do I just say "No worries" and walk off? But if she says yes what do I then say next?

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

After the Opener

Author

Anon-

After a direct opener (or almost any opener, just about), you'll usually launch into a few initial "boring questions" that you can then use to lead into repartee (banter) and, after that, rapport (deep diving). Think of it as getting into small talk, and ramping up into bigger talk. Here's an example of what that looks like: "Conversation Example."

If you get a "no" after using "Are you single?", unless she's making it expressly clear that she doesn't want to talk to you, you're best staying in a bit and continuing regardless to see if you get some initial interest. The reason why is because, as Ricardus notes in his "Says She Has a Boyfriend?" article, plenty of women will tell you they're attached as an autopilot response when in fact they're perfectly single (but just accustomed to saying they aren't to prevent too many unwanted advances). Continuing anyway would look like this:

You: [bright, vibrant tone with a big smile and an inquisitive look on your face] Are you single?

Her: Um, no. Why?

You: Well, I saw you walking along here and I just had to come find out. I'm Anon.

Her: I'm Mina.

You: That's a nice name. Are you a native New Yorker, Mina?

Her: Yes, I was born here.

You: I love New York in the spring. Even though there aren't that many trees.

... and so on and so forth. Either she'll seem interested and happy to be talking to you - a sign that, partner or no, she likes you - or she'll be uninterested and trying to go on her way, in which case you can wish her a wonderful day after 10 or 15 seconds of clearly go-nowhere conversation and exit, or if you're pushing yourself you can always hang in and see what you can achieve, or go for a quick date / phone number close (sometimes you'll be surprised, especially if you're new and don't have a good intuition about which women are genuinely interested and which ones aren't, which ones might be but are too guarded or lost in their own headspace to show you, which ones you think are but are really just being friendly or flirty, etc.).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Chase my questions pertain to


Chase my questions pertain to the article you recently wrote on flirting... Recently I walked into a venue and the girl at the counter wasn't fliritng with me at all but went out of her way to go grab me a fork,that was in the self service section of the venue.That was the first time I entered the place.The second time I entered this same girl was more flirty,started to challenge me with light teasing. It seems to me that this was her way of trying to get my attention,because I din't give it to her initially.She also went and got me a fork again,(a subtle form of compliance on her part possibly)This girl is average in looks and certainly isn't above me in the looks category or status.The fact that a girl of her caliber would think that she is on higher ground speaks volumes about today's modern woman ,who has an inflated ego because of smartphones,facebook,and the constant validations she receive's from those outlets. History has never witnessed the arrogance shown by today's modern woman (minor rant).I didn't test for compliance because I really wasn't that interested. But iv'e had similar situations in the past with girls that were more attractive. What's your take on situations like these,interested or uninterested?

I think you could have been a little clearer when you say that basically women who flirt have the upperhand with you.Because I think a distinction needs to be made between subtle flirting(smiles,subtle challenges) and outright "im toying with you"like a puppet style of flirting)which seems to be what your describing in the article?

I read in an interview you did a while back where you said that anytime you go out you expect to go through meeting 12 or so women before you meet one that is into you. It seems to me that the benefits of being high level in this skill are not as beneficial as some might believe.Because in the end no matter if your beginner or advanced in pickup it never stops being a numbers game. Really the only thing that matters is how much you approach,and advanced level just seems like some sort of side effect of doing thousands of approaches,where the only benefit is that you'll have better knowledge to execute the pickup once you meet a girl who is into you.But i don't think it means that you necesarily have better numbers.I would consider myself intermediate in pickup.But this whole rating system of judging skill levels is really unimportant when you look at the big picture.If someone who becomes advanced in this skill still has to do 15 or so approaches to meet a girl who's genuinley is attracted to him,then he's really not miles ahead of a beginner who with little game knowledge can approach in somewhat similar numbers and find a girl that's into him,regardless of his skill level.

Chase Amante's picture

Degrees of Flirting, Benefits of Advanced Game

Author

Anon-

Yes, girls doing things that show interest or give you compliance are a different story from the girls who are the big flirts focused on gathering up male attention. A girl who's a flirt won't race to give you compliance, because that disrupts the image she has of herself as "hot commodity"; rushing to comply is tipping the balance of power toward you, rather than her. It sounds like the girl you ran into was genuinely interested and just trying to get you to pay more attention to her. If it wasn't clear the difference between a girl who's being very flirty, and one who's simply showing interest and giving you investment, than that's my fault not making that article clear enough. I'll reread it and, if I think it needs it, add a clarifying note.

Re: beginner vs. intermediate vs. advanced success rates, there are two styles of approaching - what I call "mass approaching", and what I call "targeted approaching."

Targeted approaching is where you just hang out, relax, and only approach when you see girls you really like the look of whom you're pretty sure it's going to go very well with; the more advanced you get, the easier this gets to pull off, and that skips the whole mass approaching deal of having to go talk to a number of different women. You more or less won't be able to do before reaching a somewhat advanced place, unless you're naturally a very confident guy who's very socially attuned; normally though, it requires a large degree of time meeting new women to really build up the ability to intuitively recognize which women are receptive to you on sight.

Mass approaching is where you go out and focus more on just meeting a lot of girls and filtering through them quickly, rather than waiting to see one that sets off your bells, which may or may not happen on any given outing. The difference in mass approaching between someone who's advanced and someone who's a beginner is that the guy who's advanced will have far better fundamentals, which gets him much warmer receptions with the women he finds who do initially hook (i.e., a "good connection" with a girl for a guy who's intermediate and a guy who's advanced is an order of magnitude difference), and he's also got the process in place to turn what might be, say, a nice 20-minute conversation with a girl who likes him for a beginner or a phone number with date potential for an intermediate guy into a hot night of passionate sex then and there for the advanced guy.

The main benefits of getting a higher degree of skill, in terms of pure numbers picking up, is that your hook percent goes up somewhat as your fundamentals do, but more that the girls who hook hook much harder, you can turn those girls who do hook into lovers a lot faster and more consistently, and you also gain the ability to go out and target and select girls to approach reasonably consistently and with a pretty high degree of accuracy without having to mass approach at all if you prefer.

Chase

Flames's picture

Thanks


Another great article...

I must admit I read this with a bit of apprehension as I quite often friend zone myself, or at least I thought I did, but I have to say I've never had any if these pop up.

What would you think about a girl who actually refuses to friendzone you, even though that might be what you thought she wanted? I've come across a few in my time and it seems a bit obvious that they're interested in something other than friendship. In few cases the attractions hasn't seemed to expire at all (Of course it's bound to eventually).

These girls are friendly but not exactly falling all over you, but again they seem to want to be around you.

Regards
Flames

Chase Amante's picture

Girls Who Won't Friend Zone You

Author

Flames-

Good to see you! There is a certain threshold of attractiveness you can have for a woman over which you're never really friend zoned. Where this is the case, even with extensive interacting and no moving forward with them, their attraction for you doesn't expire. An extreme example would be a regular girl hanging out with a popular male celebrity; even if he keeps things platonic for two years, if at some point he decides he wants sex, she's probably going to be open to it (though at that point, she may be comfortable enough around him to demand a series of dates first, as she seeks to position him into boyfriend territory). The value differential between you and the girl doesn't need to be nearly as extreme, however.

There's also differences depending on the style of interaction you have with women over time. If you never really get to know them super well, and instead keep things light, playful, and flirty, you can maintain sexual attraction for an extended period of time. And even if you do get to know them, if you have that sufficiently high value for them (all relative to what they look for in a man), they can still have interest in you and be curious about having you in some kind of romantic-sexual role.

Chase

Flames's picture

I'm still around


Good to see you too :)

I've been staying away from the forums and been concentrating on honing myself. Trying to get rid of those little things that do myself a disservice.

I don't go to many clubs these days (every few months or so) I've got a bit into 'club game' more mainly to see how my usual skills translate. The answer to that is pretty well. I don't really care about opening any number of people, male or female. If there's a group of obviously approachable people I'll just do it. The level of alcohol in my system doesn't 'seem to' have any effect.

I still have trouble with nervous girls, as it sets me off in a bit of loop, but even that I've learnt to take a step back and let them either deal with it, or not and I've found more often than not because I'm feeling more emotionally solid they'll follow suit.

Feeling pretty good at the minute.

I'm glad to see your still churning out quality articles and appreciate all the work you put into them.

Regards
Flames

Anonymous's picture

Tests


Im dating this girl that i know and shes a shy excited girl. She is shy around me. But we text alot. Some nights we would text for about 3 hours or more and she always kept the conversation going and she would text me first sometimes. Now that we cant see each other for a week because of spring break. I try to text her but now she takes very long to reply and gives one worded texts and she doesnt reply either. She also doesnt text first either. Is this some sort of test women give? Please elaborate

Chase Amante's picture

Texting Drop Off

Author

Anon-

When you see a big drop off like that, it's either a sign that a.) something has happened to dramatically sour her mood on you, or b.) your understanding of what the relationship you had with her was different than her understanding of it. Because trust, she knows what a difference her texting frequency is, and how you'll interpret that; so it's either to send you a sign, or because she just doesn't care.

The first would be if, say, she got home and decided you were all wrong for her, or went partying during spring break and slept with some sexy new guy and now feels guilty or dislikes you and thinks poorly of you, etc.

The second would be if she just thought it was a fun, casual sexual relationship with back-and-forth texting, but now that the two of you aren't around each other she's busy with other things / other people and doesn't care to spend time thinking about you. Meantime, you're thinking it's a serious relationship, without realizing she doesn't see it that way.

If you aren't sleeping together, and just hanging out platonically, then it's probably the second instance, where you think things are a lot more serious/ committed between the two of you than she does.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If you're not sure which of these it is, just look at her reaction toward you once the break is over. If she's moody and sour toward you and still doesn't want to see you, something changed in a major way toward how she feels about you. If she picks up right where she left off as if nothing happened, she's telling you that you serve a specific role in her life, and it's one you only occupy during the school year (so just go with it, she says).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey, Chase, great work..


Hey, Chase, great work..
how can you know if you are in the friendzone when the girl actually makes out with you everytime you are together and in public... but you haven't managed to sweeten the deal ,yet, and she is always busy when you ask her out and generally seems disinterested i.e. she does not call you or text you often except when you are mising for three days or more. It seems to me, that she just wants to feel wanted but how do you handle that?

Chase Amante's picture

Doing Things on Your Terms

Author

Anon-

Don't know enough about the particulars of your situation or the girl in general to have a reliable read on whether she likes you or she's just someone who enjoys kissing boys and you're one of the boys she likes kissing, but with girls who seem to be showing interest, but are being flakey and only wanting to see you in public, the only way to deal with that is to phase them out of your public life and keep inviting them to come see you one-on-one in person.

Once she realizes that the only way she'll get to see you is one-on-one, she'll either get with the program and say "okay" (if she does like you), or she'll lose interest in you and move onto more compliant men (if she was just using kissing you as a way to get validation for herself and nothing more).

Chase

Gem's picture

Hey Chase, Wanted to share a


Hey Chase,

Wanted to share a story of something recent and ask a couple questions regarding it too:

Last week Sebastian Marshall had a meetup in LA for the givegetwin tour. It was a really great experience I got to learn a lot and meet some really cool like-minded people. I was sort of drained when I went to this from beforehand (I had like a particularly long 12+ hour day, plus 2 hours driving in bad traffic and had eaten fast food all day which I personally think really contributes to feeling like shit); was lucky that I had written a couple questions down and got to ask them and get good notes, but wish I’d preserved my energy and taken more time to make connections meet people (and be mentally fresh could’ve had some more things I could’ve asked/learned).

I got to Santa Monica that evening for the event pretty beat but pretty eager and curious about the event (and this kept me sort of driving forward and made me not crash). I met a girl there who was a Japanese exchange student who drove down there from real far away with other college students (some 100+ miles away). I think this Japanese girl was a love at first sight type deal sort of because I walked in and our eyes sort of drew to each other and we walked to each other and said hi causing me to forget to sign in or do anything else. I talked with this girl a lot and I was amazed by how refreshingly different she was (from the typical valley girls of course but different in many ways as well from the occasional driven, ambitious western girls I meet). I had read your article on girls in China a while back and this girl was somewhat similar I think: masculine, independent, determined girl but very feminine and nurturing at the same time. I was really refreshingly surprised by her she was sweet, inquisitive and very curious (deep dived me almost better than I could her). It was very funny (I liked that it’s gotten to this point though) because I was sort of half dead through our conversations and it was just process and fundamentals moving me forward with her (there was a point where I was qualifying her and deep diving but caught myself nodding off from lack of sleep; and because of my energy levels I was having trouble talking but despite that she got a fair bit out of me). The girl made me promise to stay with her and let her show me all around when I come visit her country, and I looked her in the eyes and told her I mean it that I will.

I wanted to ask that from your experience do you find preferable the Asian girls you meet (so nurturing/feminine while meeting all your other preferred conditions) vs. Western girls or other foreign girls who might have less of that feminine/nurturer element. This girl fed me snacks and asked me a bunch of questions to make sure I was all right (and was warm like a girl will be towards me after sex; much more so than many of those post-coital sweet girls in fact).

I’m sort of the independent worker type, have little emotional needs, and wouldn’t like a girl who’s emotions I have to consider constantly (who can get hurt easily and who I might upset and not even realize). But somehow I still like this category of a nurturing, sweet, curious caring girl provided she is ambitious and independent and not too emotional (like it’s interesting that the two traits go together because I haven’t seen it like this with western girls I’ve met).

I think I happen to have somewhat similar preferences to yours in girls Chase, what would the pros and cons be between the two sets of girls and what things do you like and not like?

I was writing notes about what was different with this girl and the main girl I’m dating now and realized that the girl I’m dating might be similar but is more colder, cynical, bluntly rational (she’s still warm and feminine and imaginative and all those other things; but I think growing up in the west and being an engineer always with other guys are sort of resultant of some of the differences between her and the Asian girl). I don’t think I could see which type I like more or not without being a relationship/courtship for some time with either brand of girl; curious at what you’ve observed and seen here and what you think based on your experiences.

-Gem

Chase Amante's picture

Gem- Sounds like a fun time

Author

Gem-

Sounds like a fun time at the event and with the girl. Yes, I’m like you; I like a good mix of nurturing/feminine along with my preferences for a woman being strong, savvy, and driven. If she’s only the latter but not the former, it’s basically impossible for us to have a relationship, because I’m not a nurturer and I’m not someone who’s going to break my back trying to make things work; if the woman isn’t in that role with me, the best we can really be is lovers casually.

I also personally just find femininity more attractive… you see it more with Asian, South American, and Eastern European women than you do Western women, this is true. You can still sometimes find feminine Western women in more conservative areas or, occasionally, when girls have been raised in non-mainstream families that run their own businesses and are exacting about raising daughters that are both strong and very feminine. These days I just think of it as “breeding”; most Americans, for instance, don’t engage in giving their children “good breeding” because they think it’s haughty or not their place (e.g., they’d rather be a friend to their child than a teacher or mentor), but when you meet women from strong familial backgrounds (of which there still are plenty of here and there, mainly outside the big cities, in the West), they’ve approached child-rearing as a life-long process of raising children who are aware of the world and the best ways to operate within it in order to get what they want and lead a fruitful life.

On the other hand, girls that are TOO soft and sweet I find I grow bored with too easily. They’re too compliant and can’t keep my interest; they also get hurt with me too often and too easily, no matter how much I try not to hurt them.

One thing to keep in mind is the “grass is always greener” phenomenon; when I’m with a very soft girl, I find myself thinking, “Gosh, she’s a real sweetheart, but I’m just so BORED; I wish I had my interesting girl,” and then when I’m with a saucier girl I sometimes catch myself going, “Man, I miss my sweet girl… so much less drama.” Then when I’m with the sweet girl, it’s, “Gosh, she’s a real sweetheart, but I’m just so BORED…”

It seems like everyone I know does this, guy and girl alike; you see it with breakup patterns - people break up with the bad boy / bad girl, chase after a nice guy / nice girl to rebound with, then get bored, and go date another bad boy / bad girl again. And over and over it goes, and so on and so forth.

Of course, there are ALSO the girls who are neither sweet NOR saucy, but just cold and lifeless (and they come in every culture). Those girls, I just won't date. Worth noting that it can seem like you run into many more of these girls in your home country, but that's because when you meet foreign girls, there's a lot to share and explore and teach and learn with the mixing of cultures. With a local girl, you don't have any of that, so there's less excitement and adventure to it. Guys from every culture complain about how boring / picky / lifeless their home country girls are... it's more a "the local seems so much less interesting than the new and exotic" thing than anything else.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hi chase, I've made such


Hi chase,

I've made such great progress but at the same time I'm not sure if I can call it that. On some days I radiate with confident sexual energy but it fades eventually, esp. When I get tired. Then I transform into the complete opposite and its so scary experiencing that contrast and living in a world of insecurity and hypersensitivity. It's so scary but unless I'm at home and ableto relax through meditation, the problem only intensifies when I'm in public. So first, why do I keep reverting and what can I do to prevent this? Second, if I keep reverting does it mean that every so often of reverting will never go away? I'm almost scared to date a girl because I know that ugly monster inside of me is going to pop out sooner or later.

Friend in need

Chase Amante's picture

Back and Forth

Author

Anon-

It's normal to backslide and have ups and downs when you're working on changing yourself rapidly. You'll see those switches in yourself and notice the flip-flopping and worry that it's going to be something plaguing you forever, but with time it happens less and less, and eventually you don't worry about it at all.

Sometimes I sit and think about what the me of 10 years ago would think and feel if I picked him up and plopped him into the life of the me of today. I imagine he would start panicking, and thinking, "Oh God, I have everything I want but this isn't ME at all... there's no way I'll be able to sustain it!" The me of today just smiles at that though, because I'm comfortable enough now with the life I live that I not only do I know how to maintain it, I can also tear it down and completely rebuild it on a moment's notice and think nothing of it.

This is mostly just one that comes with time, and the experience of having repeated successes. Once you've repeatedly succeeded at the things you need to succeed at (like picking up and sleeping with pretty girls), you stop worrying about whether you can sustain it because it becomes an automatic thing, instead of something you're having to willpower yourself to do. At that point, you have to work really HARD to feel insecure about these things... and even then, the best you can muster, really, is just a memory of what it used to feel like, and a sort of a ghost of the old operating system your mind used to run.

Chase

Kisuke Urahara's picture

Friendship Questions


Hello Chase, this is a really great article, and I'm really grateful for your writing it. I finally mustered the courage to cut contact with a girl I'd been chasing for two years.

Well after I left, I found I had alot of free time on my hands, and a serious drop in confidence. I'd lost all my friends and confidence to talk to people. I found even little kids would treat me coldly. Well after I stumbled across your site and began working on myself I got my long lost confidence and friends back. However, there is some things I would like to ask you about.

I'm in an area where there are mostly males, and besides your Guy Talk article, I couldn't really find much to help me make male friends. I just wanted to know whether the conversationalist article works with males as well, and if, with the right (straight) vibes applied, the art of the deep dive would work on building connections with them?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Friendship Questions

Author

Kisuke-

Props on rebuilding your confidence and friendships. Yes, the same general conversation strategies you'd use with women work with men, too - you just need to keep the topics more masculine, as in the "Guy Talk" article.

One difference is that, just as with talking with casual female friends, you won't want to engage in TOO much deep diving, usually, if you don't want to be known as that way-too-intense friend who always wants to get into really deep conversations. Most of the time with your pals, you'll stick to small talk and joking around / banter. Deep diving is good to do every once in a while to build or deepen a bond (or catch up on everything you've been up to if you haven't seen someone in a long time), but most of the time, friends will mainly just want to chill out with you and have a beer, so to speak.

Chase

Dale's picture

Good article


I've saw these so many times; then found ot later that I had friend-zoned myself by not pushing far enough and putting the women into auto-rejection.

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