The 5 Big Differences Between Naturals and “PUA”s


natural vs. puaWhen I first discovered dating advice for men on the Internet in the mid-2000s, I was ecstatic; here were exactly the tools I was looking for to take what I was trying to do and put it on rocket fuel.

With these tools, I knew, I could shave years off my learning curve and advance at a far faster rate than I could having to figure every single thing out by myself, on my own.

It didn't take long though before I realized that many of the guys posting on seduction forums and meeting up in pickup lairs were "quirky"; there were things about them that were off, and the kinds of women they were going for were... not the kinds of women I was all that interested in.

I maintained friendships with the cooler and more "normal" guys I met through PUA - and indeed, many of these guys are still good friends of mine today, and are some of the sharpest and most improvement-oriented people I know (many are also quite successful in their businesses and careers nowadays) - but aside from them, I largely retreated to friendships with "naturals" - guys who were naturally good with women, and hadn't studied pickup and had only the most cursory knowledge of what it taught.

What I noticed was that there were some very distinct differences between the guys who were naturally good with women and the guys who were not - and while some of this went away as guys improved, some of it didn't; these differences remained.

And those differences very often meant the difference between being cool and getting the more attractive, harder-to-get girls, and not being and getting those.


natural vs. pua

I don't really like the term "natural", to be honest... it sort of deifies and mythologizes guys who are good with women without having sat down and studied books and articles and materials on doing better with them, when in fact they're really just normal guys who happen to do very well with women.

I much prefer to just refer to these guys as "my friends who are good with girls", because it's a less loaded term, and more ambiguous... and "ambiguous" is a big part of the "natural's" mystique.

Guys who are seemingly naturally good with women tend to be smoother, edgier, and more sexual than guys who are consciously working to learn these things. That doesn't mean you can't learn how to be these things consciously; rather, what it means is that most of the men who sit down to methodically learn girl skills don't learn these things.

To my mind, that's the biggest part of the difference between "naturals" and "pick up artists" - while the aim of what they're doing is often similar, these two classes of men go about things different ways and focus on learning different things.

This site, actually, is focused predominantly on a fusion of things learned from naturals, things I and the other authors already naturally have come to do that work, and useful things picked up from others in the pickup community. I can't speak for all the other guys on-staff, but at least for me, what I talk about is probably 80% natural, 20% PUA, all jumbled up together and put through a "how to make this as simple and intuitive as possible" filter.

But how did guys who are "naturals" come to be on the pedestal they're on in the pickup... and what's so great about them anyway?


What the Natural Knows

If I had to categorize all the guys I know who are self-taught with girls and are very good with them, I'd say that they all are "students of people" and "students of the mind." They find people, relationships, thinking, persuasion, negotiation, communication, influence, and much more to be extraordinarily interesting topics, and they are constant students of these topics.

They won't often talk about these things, because:

  1. They're wary of being thought of as manipulative, and if there's one thing someone who's very socially aware knows, it's that you want things to seem as effortless and unconscious as possible,

  2. They're very aware of the fact that most people just aren't as interested in how people and brains work as they are... and that these topics are often too "intellectual" for most of the folks they spend time with, and, finally

  3. They usually have some kind of rough objective for their socializing - and talking about how people work is not usually anywhere on the path to achieving these, and even if they would enjoy these topics, unless you're already highly advanced in this field you probably won't have much that's all that interesting to them to say

That makes guys like this somewhat impenetrable to a lot of less socially savvy men, who can't get into their skulls and can't get a good explanation out of these guys on how to do what they do ("You know... you just go talk to girls!").

natural vs. pua

There's a sort of idea in men's dating advice circles that a natural is a sort of "idiot savant" - he's really good, but he has no idea what he's doing.

In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth.

He just doesn't want you thinking he knows what he's doing, is all.


Why Naturals Play Dumb

Most interviews with top business people churn out a lot of the same general, "You can do it too! Just try!" non-advice that sounds great but is practically useless. These are things like:

  • "It's all about persistence."
  • "You've got to know your market."
  • "Make sure you're making something people want."
  • "If you don't believe in your business, no one else will either."

Great sound bites, but if you take this advice and sit down tomorrow to go launch your first business, you're going to be every bit as lost as you would've been had you never heard these one-liners.

Are great businessman idiot savants too? Maybe they just do things and don't really know what they're doing?

No. They know what they're doing. Not all of it is 100% conscious, of course... there are always important things you're doing that help you succeed that you're not completely aware of. There's always more nuance.

But the truly important things? They can teach those if they really want to.

They just don't.

Why not? A variety of reasons:

  1. It's pretty hard to do. It's a LOT of work to sit there and analytically figure out how to explain something you do naturally all of the time... it's not very easy. I do it all day and have been for years, and it's still a grind whenever I'm trying to explain something I haven't already explained a hundred times before. And this is especially difficult when you're talking to someone who just doesn't get it... when you're good with girls, and you're talking to someone else who's good with girls, you can just say, "You know, you tease them a little bit, and they go all soft on you and do whatever you want them to do," and he nods his head in knowing agreement. You say that to a guy whose a beginner, and he stares at you like you're talking Martian and says, "But I tease girls all the TIME and they NEVER do anything I want them to do!"

  2. There's no reason to do it. I write about this stuff because my business is writing about this stuff, and because I enjoy writing about it. However, the motivation to hang out with people who don't understand it and explain it all to them piece-by-piece simply isn't there. Sure, it's nice to give back and help out... a couple of times. But eventually, it's kind of like teaching the alphabet to kindergarteners - it's great the first few times, but after a while, you're just teaching the same thing over and over, and if you aren't making the big bucks doing that, there's not a whole lot of motivation to exchange your free time for training up one person, then another, then another...

  3. It's not fun to do. Unless someone views you as an authority figure - and guys who are naturals usually avoid being seen too much as authority figures - even when he asks you for help, he'll still tend to push back on anything you tell him that doesn't mesh with what he presently believes. And if he isn't at your level with women yet, you'd better believe that what you believe and what he believes are two different things. Be ready to have him ask you how to do something that he doesn't know how to do, you'll spend time telling him, based on having done it time and again, and him coming back and challenging you and telling you no, that's not right, because the mainstream advice you've listened to your whole life told you otherwise. There's little in the world more frustrating than someone asking you to give him advice, then rejecting your advice after you give it.

  4. It makes them potentially look scheming. Get a guy who's a natural to really open up - it's pretty rare - and he'll talk to you about the stuff he does with women and knows he does with women. And... it just makes him look a lot more scheming and conniving than you thought of him before. Because this is how anyone looks when he's playing any game at a more advanced level than the other players; he knows something they don't. Which is not to say that those OTHER players wouldn't do the same exact things if THEY were the ones with the information advantage... these imbalances play out all the time between men and women - woman friend zones guy, even though what he wants is a date / sex / relationship with her, because she has a better grasp of what's going on when he does; man has one-night stand with girl, even though what she wants is some kind of an ongoing relationship from him and time to figure out if she wants that relationship to mature into something more. Socially intelligent people know the best thing to do here is shrug and say, "But I thought he/she wanted that!" and play dumb, because then nobody blames him or her for going after what he/she wanted - after all, he/she simply didn't realize.

Add all that up, and you've got a pretty convincing case for a guy who's self-taught to be good with women to play dumb and not get into details whenever envious or aspirational men start asking him how he does what he does.

So, the natural gets to go on playing the rule of clueless, innocent child in pursuit of fun and fornication, while the world watches scratching its head and says, "He's just got something that women love, and not even he know what it is."


natural vs. pua

If we want to get specific, we can really narrow the differences between your standard self-taught naturals and your run-of-the-mill community-taught pickup artists down to five (5) key distinctions... but that doesn't mean if you fall into the less natural camp you're stuck there, or doomed to end up there.

Rather, like all things, simply by knowing where you want to get to you can start moving yourself in that direction.

Without further ado, here are the five differences:


#1: The Natural's Been Doing This a Lot Longer

natural vs. puaYour average naturally-good-with-women man started working on his "game" back in his teenage years - usually somewhere before age 14 or 15. He was sleeping with lots of women in high school, working out how to be charming, working out how to get sexual faster, and had his social skills polishing on overdrive to start racking up more and more results - and more and more lays.

Most guys who stumble into the pickup community don't do so until their early- to mid-twenties or later - as much as a decade or more behind the natural.

Now, there are certain advantages to studying material from professional teachers over having to self-teach; you can generally advance a lot more rapidly this way, all other things being equal.

Except, all other things aren't equal - you will usually never have a more choice testing bed for game skills than the environments in high school and college. Many of my natural friends had taken between 10 and 30 girls to bed before graduating high school, and made it past the 50-lay mark before they left college.

And those are just the girls they got in bed... that's not counting all the girls they got close with but didn't close the deal with; the girls they made out with; the girls they took on dates; the girls they flirted with but had not pan out.

They acquire mountains of experience in environments typically unlike anything else you'll experience for the rest of your adult life. After college, you'll almost never be so surrounded with horny girls your age who are young and inexperienced and don't have their defenses up so high for a guy who knows what he's doing with them.

Sure, you can go get a job working in a college bar, or go live on a party island somewhere (one of my friends spent a year living in Koh Phangan, Thailand, home of the Full Moon Party, and had an understandably wild set of life experiences there), but most people aren't going to do this because they have other priorities in their lives and partying / sex / girls simply isn't #1.

And, you can meet more women by cold approach than the most social socialite will meet via social circle... but, again, most guys are never going to put in the hours to get good at cold approach, and even many of the guys reading this site I know use the material here to improve themselves and do better mainly still with women in social circle. It's just simply how most people meet.

That head start afforded to your average natural when compared to your average pickup artist ends up making him seem entirely different - because he is. He's:

  • Smoother
  • Sexier
  • Edgier
  • More effortless
  • More confident
  • More unflappable
  • More inured to the vagaries of random variation in his interactions

While it's certainly possible for a late bloomer who's studying material to catch up, the reality is that most won't put the hours in... if it was something you're that inclined to do, you usually will end up starting as soon as possible - and end up a natural, rather than a PUA.

However, there is a silver lining to this cloud: if you get some natural friends, and pay very close attention to how they are around women (and people in general), you can generally absorb these characteristics and learn to display them yourself.

It's very hard to learn this from reading or even from watching videos. If you end up spending time around a guy like this though, it's quite possible to take the mannerisms and behavior patterns it's taken him 5 or 10 years or more to get down and simply adopt those yourself.

And the cool thing about this is, as you adopt those characteristics and behaviors, the way people treats you changes, and they begin to treat you just like they treat your natural friend.

Which is, usually, as a very attractive man (because you're acting like a very attractive man).

And the more people treat you this way, the more it reinforces these kinds of behaviors, and the more you begin to improvise similar but unique behaviors to these, but in the same vein, and evolve the traits and mannerisms you adopted.

Eventually you just become them.

So, in a way, by carefully studying and mimicking a talented natural, you can actually skip ahead to somewhere close to where he is - almost like skipping a few levels in a video game. Is it cheating? Perhaps. But it's fun nevertheless.


#2: The Natural's an Intense Examiner of People

Something I've noticed that stands out as a very key difference between naturals and most pickup artists is this: guys who are naturals are CONSTANTLY figuring out who the people around them are down to those people's very nuts and bolts. They LOVE getting inside people's heads, figuring out what makes them tick, and divining which buttons to push with those people to generate what reactions.

Most pickup artists don't do this. They're pushing buttons, sure, but the buttons they push tend to be more "one size fits all" buttons - they learn that certain things work well for them, and then they just do those things with everybody.

Naturals don't do that though. They sit back... and observe.

And probe.

And pry.

And before you know it, they're under your skin, delicately prying out all your most intimate details, and uncovering those little secret weaknesses you thought you hid so well.

And they're laughing about it with you and teasing you about it, and you feel slightly naked, but, well, whatever... that's what naturals do.

You don't take it too personally, because...


#3: The Natural's Always Having a Good Time

He doesn't go out on a "mission" like a pickup artist does. And he isn't there just "to get laid." Sure, that may happen - and it may be a part of why he's there - but he isn't especially caught up on having it happen.

He's more concerned with enjoying himself.

How does he enjoy himself? Well, perhaps not completely how you think:

  • Cracking jokes is part of it, yes - every natural I've ever known had a fantastic sense of humor and loved to laugh

  • Drinking is sometimes a part of it, when out at night, though not necessarily always

  • Bringing the energy is a big part of it - bringing people together, being inclusive, elevating everyone else's energy levels

  • Probing into people is a big part of it too - just as I recommend with deep diving and chase framing, you'll find that most naturals will tend to probe and pry a little bit, then turn around and relieve the tension that probing and prying kicked up by introducing some more laughter into the interaction... although generally, most naturals have far more light-hearted conversations than what I usually recommend for deep diving (ultra fun, light-hearted conversations are very good for seduction, but they're a very difficult balancing act and can be hard to pull off if you're not of an inherently whimsical nature)

  • Leading people is another one that is high on most naturals' priorities list - leading is "fun" because it's both a way of dialing the energy up a notch, and getting a winner effect going on by playful-but-firmly insisting someone do something that's just a little bit outside her comfort zone and getting her to comply

Essentially, men who are very skilled with people enjoy themselves by leading around their interactions with other people, really getting under those people's skin, and using their skill set to make the occasion a good time for everyone.

This is fun for a natural... and it's also something you very rarely see your standard-issue pickup artist busy himself with.


#4: He's an Expert at Target Selection

natural vs. puaThis one's partly the result of experience - you can't help but develop an instinct for which women will be receptive to you and which women won't as you grow more experienced with them - but again, it's also partly a matter of focus.

The guys who study pickup frequently employ mass approaching - that is, going up and talking to lots of girls. Which is... exactly what you need to be doing when you're not very good yet with women and aren't so good at picking out which women are interested in you and which women aren't.

Yet, as you're approaching, you should always be asking yourself, "Does this woman want to meet me?" before the approach, and try to figure it out in advance. You train up your instincts this way - because afterward, you either say, "I was right on the money - I KNEW that girl was going to be open to me, because she [blank]," or, "Yeah, I could tell she was going to be closed, because she [blank]," or, "Wow, I had no idea she was going to receive me so well - I thought from her [blank] she was going to be ice cold!" Over time, this makes you refine your ability to estimate how open women will be to you more and more - and you get better and better at target selection.

I've been out with guys learning pickup who didn't do this at all - they just spam approached everything that moved, and didn't bother paying attention to any signals those women were giving off one way or another - and I've been out with the guys who do this to the point of paralysis, second-guessing every potential approach with, "No, but, she just turned her body away... I don't think she's interested." There's not much of a happy medium there.

When a natural is first starting out, his state of mind is, "Okay, I think this girl is interested... but let's go see what happens," or, "Hmm, I don't think that girl wants to talk to me, but she looks so good I've just got to go find out for sure." Over time, he trains up his instincts this way - and if you adopt this mentality, so will you.


#5: He Knows Girls are Just Girls - and That There are LOTS of Them

For your average pickup artist, girls are a BIG deal. They're one of the main things he thinks about. He eats, breathes, and thinks girls. He often pedestalizes the really pretty ones, and resents the really unattractive ones. He beats himself up when things don't go the way he wanted them to, and is prone to falling in love with that one special girl who shows up and is better than what he usually gets.

Naturals don't operate this way. Probably because he has had an abundance of women in his life since not long after he first wanted women in his life, a natural has never had to live in a world where women were a scarce resource - and, thus, he has a natural, and more or less unchangeable, abundance mentality.

He doesn't take women very seriously.

He doesn't get too worried about what they do.

To him, girls are silly and cute, and they're not some über-big-deal thing to stay up late worrying about.

Sure, they're interesting.

And he loves to pick them apart and get down to the nitty-gritty.

But he doesn't worry about them a whole lot... because there's always another girl just like this one around the next corner - that's not to say that all girls are the same, but if you want to find a girl who's almost the same as any one particular girl, you can probably find her - you did it once, you can do it again.

Girls are great.

They're just not that big a deal, is all.


The Natural and the Pick Up Artist

You can adopt any of these mentalities you care to adopt - it's really mostly about being intensely interested in people, and never really turning your "analysis mode" off. Because as much effortless fun naturals look like they're having, they're always holding a magnifying glass up to everything happening around them socially they can see.

It's also about wanting to control the social environment around you - both probing (to understand who these people around you are and what it is they want) and bringing the energy (to keep everybody high in spirits and, thus, more likely to stick with the program - your program) - in order to get things to go the direction you want them to go in... a direction that everybody will end up being happy in, and especially you.

Naturals legitimately love helping other people have a good time around them, because they've learned through experience that when others have a good time around them, they have a great time - all kinds of good things manifest out of thin air (including horny women).

If you want to emulate a natural - and get the kind of results a natural gets - part of it is just hard work to get yourself up to a not-so-tiny social and sexual experience level.

But a big part of it is just plain old emulation - pick a role model, and go be like him.

You can't be "natural" over night, but don't worry - even naturals weren't born naturals.

They were just born interested... and persistent.

Yours,
Chase

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Comments

Firestorm's picture

The Effects of Self-Esteem Level on the Seduction Process


Hi, Chase. I'm 19 years old, so you can guess somewhat at my experience level. To be brief, you've altered the course of my life in the few months I have known of this website.

Just kissed a girl who says she has low self-esteem. That got me thinking about how girls with high self esteem (esp. narcissists) need reciprocal challenges to understand that you are a high quality man. However, I have a hunch that low self-esteem girls need building up more than anything.

The concept of self esteem facinates me. Going off on a tangent. I think it may also apply to the lowering of standards you've been preaching here at girls chase. Because the best way to build ourselves up is not by using people who are lower class, but by building THEM up...lowering our standards and showing girls a new world where they can stand up onstage and face their fears, conquer their doubt, and vanquish their self-esteem draining demons.

Do my ideas sound cogent? Could we see an article on the effects of self-esteem levels on the seduction process and the resulting variation of women's needs that need to be fulfilled before they sleep with us? I also see a potential tie-in with inspiring people and lowering standards.

What do you think?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: The Effects of Self-Esteem Level on the Seduction Process

Author

Firestorm-

Pleased to hear I've / the site has impacted your life so greatly - I hope for the better ;)

Self-esteem, lowering standards, and narcissism are an interesting topic to explore, yeah. I'll add that one to the queue. Off the top of my head, there's going to be some adjustment needed with lowering your standards, although the kind of adjustment will vary by girl - some less attractive women are low self-esteem, but then, so are some really very beautiful women. Some less attractive women are brimming with confidence; and other unattractive women are not the quiet, retreating low self-esteem types, but rather the "I'm so great and I don't need ANYONE!" low self-esteem types who are hiding behind a veneer of ironclad independence to protect themselves from dealing with esteem issues (or, alternately, because they're just so driven that they don't want anyone slowing them down - sometimes these two will look very similar, although their accomplishments and life trajectory quickly distinguish them from each other). Each of these different types requires a different approach.

If your standards dictate dating only women of normal confidence levels, you certainly will encounter a hodgepodge of differing self-esteem issues by broadening the net, and that does demand you get a lot more flexible and a lot better with people in general. Low self-esteem shy girls must be inspired and encouraged; high self-esteem "confident & sociable" girls must be respected with supplication; low self-esteem "I'm too good for everybody!" girls also need respect, but a lot less teasing than you'd use with high self-esteem confident/social girls; and high ego "I'm blazing a path through the world - just stay out of my way" types need another approach altogether (i.e., the intriguing, inquisitive man who offers no judgment one way or the other on what she's doing - he neither calls it folly nor noble, since the man who calls it folly she dismisses as weak at heart, and the man who calls it noble she sees as an outsider trying in vain to bridge the gulf between his smallness and her greatness - instead, he just makes curious conversation with her, and lets on nothing about himself).

Inspiration works with ALL confidence levels and personality types, but it only works once you're past the girl's shell - it's obviously harder to pull off with both esteem-level "I don't need anyone" types.

Anyway... more on that in a future piece!

Chase

Supah's picture

Naturals


I don't consider myself a natural at all, but as i read this i do see a lot of things i do, actually 4 of the 5 'differences' except the first one but i'm still quite young. "little ego boost"

I think it's mostly because of my standard of women which was to high in high school (which is still to high i guess) why I didn't get a lot of experience, now that i'm writing this I do remember that I was quite good with girls of my age when I was just a little boy, around the age of 10. I guess I messed up later..

But now that i'm in college there are just so much girls that my high standard isn't a real problem anymore I made a lot of progress since, but I only discovered girls chase about 2-3 months ago and it did made me see what I was doing right and wrong before. I now understand why I got that lucky with that girl and why that one time didn't work out or where I went wrong. So thanks a lot for putting so much work and effort in this website, the world would be a different place without this.

About the learning other people about what you know about girls. It is exactly as you say. Its quite frustrating actually and it happened to me a lot of times while I was just talking with my friends about girls. It even happened to me yesterday. A friend of me was criticizing another friend because he thought he was 'moving to fast' while picking up girls. I told him he was wrong and explained him the benefits of moving fast, but he would just look at me like I was talking bullshit and literally told me I didn't make any sense. While luckily my other friend felt supported in his behavior.

Anyway this comment is getting way to long, thanks for sharing this, it's yet another great motivation to keep going out there and picking up girls.

Cheers, Supah

Chase Amante's picture

Friends

Author

Supah-

The thing with friends is annoying, absolutely. One way around this in the case you mentioned is simply waiting for the "you need to go slow and be a gentleman!" friend to finish his piece, then walk up to your other friend when Friend A has left and tell him, "Don't listen to that guy; he never gets laid. You're on the right track."

That's far more encouraging than engaging the first guy in a battle of philosophies, because the untrained eye is unable to tell who's making the better point, and to him it ends up seeming like a draw between two equals (when nothing could be further from the truth).

Chase

Supah's picture

Friends


Chase,

Thanks for the advice! I'll keep this in mind for when I happen to be in the same situation again.

Cheers, Supah

Richard Weddel's picture

Chase - " what I talk about


Chase -

" what I talk about is probably 80% natural, 20% PUA, all jumbled up together and put through a "how to make this as simple and intuitive as possible" filter."

This is quite possibly the best aspect of the site... and it's my belief that every guy is natural to an extent with women to a degree, and the site helps to pull that potential out of you.

Like myself, I was a "natural," once I broke my AA, and was comfortable with women, and then do what I normally do.

To me, the site offers information that should be used as you see fit, instead of followed exactly (most of the time anyway).

More of a personally adaptive type of approach where people get the information and use it with how they are naturally...

Anyway, great piece Chase. Really eye opening and refreshing for me.

-Rich

Black Mystery's picture

New Concept....what you think?


Hey Chase,
I would like to share something with ya. I am actually at the beginners level but still I found something that would make girls chase us. I called this "being in friend zone but not ACTUALLY being in it".
You know, 3 years ago I did approach a beautiful girl and charm her very well within seconds. The fact is I was actually inexperience and a bit nervous. And out of that when she asked me while smiling and looking into my eyes-are you directly flirting with me? And I stupidly replied that "No, I just wanna be your friend"( but I actually wasn't interested to be her friend & I didn't know about this site at that time).
What I notice after that my behavior wasn't actually a friend material. So she was constantly trying to get me out of it ( or even herself) by showing her affection towards me directly. I did like it.
I'd like to know, what do you think about this?

Black Mystery

Chase Amante's picture

"Just Want to Be Your Friend" *wink*

Author

BM-

That one can be fun. I stopped doing it a while back because I found it a little TOO playerish... there's just something about saying to a woman, "Hey... I REALLY just want to be your friend," with a smile and a wink (so to speak) that makes girls go, "Oh - YOU!" and punch you in the arm, but then put up a wall of resistance to sex later. Then again, I haven't done it in earnest since back before I had sexiness down all that well, so it might be something you can combine with overall more sexual game and pull off okay.

One thing I can say definitely is potent is making offhand friend remarks to girls, like, "You know what? I'm glad we're friends... you're really cool people," or, "I do believe you're my first Belgian friend." These statements introduce uncertainty and ambiguity into the interaction, because the girl doesn't know if she's "got" you or not - most men who are interested in her desperately avoid references to "friends" unless they're cornered on it, and here you are throwing it out there proactively. Might you actually NOT be interested in her? This tends to make girls realize how much they like you (by making them experience the mild panic that comes from thinking they might be losing you), and often kicks off some solid chasing assuming they're already into you when you use it.

Chase

Oskar's picture

Just posted a FR focused on


Just posted a FR focused on this very topic. Awesome timing :)

Playing dumb in certain situations is vital -- too many times I've made the mistake of sticking my head up when I shouldn't have and gotten scalped. The difficult part is that playing dumb can sometimes chafe your ego. Getting good at this is essentially building good social filters based on solid reference points without succumbing to egotism.It also involves the art of saying things without actually saying them, so that only those who know how to listen can pick up on your meaning. The best way I can think of to target not saying too much is to reward yourself with private humor -- making jokes between yourself and God (though overuse will probably make you more egotistical. So it's definitely a balancing act; an art.)

Best,
Oskar

Anonymous's picture

Hmmm, I liked the part how


Hmmm, I liked the part how these guys play dumb.
Also, I can see the advantage they have, that other people have. It is not just these guys, but the girls too. They have been being approach since forever and I guess they saw almost everything. And without being on her level, I realize I have no chance because of lack of experience.
I read more than approach. Last time I cold approached was in May.

I am a loner and I think about stuff. Reading your blog made many "yea, I think that too" or "that is what I do!" moments. But I realized knowing too much is bad. Because now I have all these mental wars in my head with my brain and I usually lose. Sometimes I say 'fuck it' and I just go and mumble out something like "Hi, I looked at you and you have really outstanding style and I thought - ok, lets try to talk to her." But only if it is honest, I cant just go and say this, if my brain was "she is too beautiful for someone like you." If this is the line, I go with "I felt intimidated by your beauty" (which is bad and I know it) and whole interation is just polite and I make my exit after couple of minutes.

What I also realized is, people need mentors. How do I find a mentor without paying them? I know this from many other experiences, if you want to get better, you need a guide. It is not the information he provides, it is his guidance. His leading hand. He shows you what to do and HOW to do it. And then you do.
You can find tips on work outs, perfect form, how to defend yourself against attacker.

But with social situations I always felt it was not real. It is not "do this move this way and you are set". I want a social mentor because I feel it is the only way. Like with sports actually. In everything you interact with people, you need this. Sure it helps for working out, but the impact is not that big as in this. I learnt a lot from just watching my teammates play, waching their technics and such.

Or should I really just get a job and hobbies that involve other people? I feel like I need to be out there but not in a way of approaching. Maybe organize some parties? I had an idea once I am older to just organize these halloween parties, how I would create invitation cards and just spend time with that. I dont like doing this for a birthday because that is basically "today is my day" kind of party.

I just do not know how to be social and it result in my connections with people being on the surface, nothing deep. Because as a loner guy I think first step is to build some social circle. I dont think I need to list reasons. Many people described those. Basically Maslow's hierarchy, step by step.

Chase Amante's picture

Getting Social

Author

Anon-

I wouldn't recommend throwing parties until you're a bit more socially advanced and a bit more connected. I thought throwing a party sounded like a great idea when I first moved to California in 2007 and decided I wanted to start learning social circle, so I put one together (and it was exactly that - a Halloween party), and invited maybe 10 people I knew... my old college roommate happened to be in town, and came for that (actually, he might've come to town just for that party - sorry, bro!), and other than him, three guys I didn't know showed up, because some girl I'd been trying to sleep with decided she wasn't attending but told some of her orbiters where there was a party they could go to. Moral of the story: don't throw parties until you have a lot of people you can have come, because unless they already know your parties kick ass or they really, really like you, you'll have a LOT of flakes.

Just getting more social experience is key, yes. What I did after that party was I started going to as many social events as I could find - networking events, Meetup.com groups, classes of all kinds, alumni meetings for my university, etc. Through these, I'd meet people and get invited to parties and meet more people and expand my circles and get more and more comfortable with increasingly diverse groups of people. Some of my good friends in California I met in quick succession through unlikely chains of people this way. Doing this - immersing yourself in every halfway interesting social outing you can find - really rounds out your social skill set very quickly.

On mentors - yeah, that's somewhat of a circuitous route, especially for things like getting good with girls... I'll add it to the article queue, and get something up on it in a bit.

Chase

Victor's picture

And there is one more thing


And there is one more thing to it - namely, fear. Often, the guy who jumps into man-woman thing later than average was stopped by fear in his teenage years. If the cause of that fear is not dealt with, he won't come off as a natural, no matter what his skills are.

Chase Amante's picture

Fear

Author

Great observation, Victor - and very true. Fear and self-consciousness is one of the biggest factors in looking uncomfortable and off the mark, most definitely.

Chase

Wes's picture

Filtering


I think I was a natural when I was younger. I really enjoyed picking people apart and i was always naturally funny. Until I discovered Mystery in 2007 while I was in junior high.
With all the rules of "don't do this" and "don't say that"
Or "say this" and "say that", a person can lose themselves to fit a mold that they believe will get them success.
Yea, I was naturally curious and funny...but I never got very far with girls. Therefore, following whatever advice I was given and following to a T.
I think it can be dangerous sometimes though because we may sometimes filter ourselves from saying or doing things that we think will not work.

Example: today, I was eating lunch with a male friend and a female friend. I had just gone to the club with the female friend over the weekend and she had given out her number to a guy. At lunch, I was asking about the guy, his texts, and what he's been saying to her...to learn how good his game is. Ultimately, she told me she wasn't comfortable meeting up with him because he felt like a stranger.
A guy eavesdropping and sitting at another table interjected saying to me: "you can't ask her that!"
We all just looked at him, ignored him, and kept talking.
The guy was saying that it was wrong to ask my female friend about her social life and that it was wrong to get into her head to figure out why or why she wouldn't go out with a guy.

It got me thinking about the things that I avoid saying because I think it's "wrong" to talk about. Or that it would ruin my chances with the girl.
In other words I put a filter on everything I say or do.
Honestly, I have no idea what things we ABSOLUTELY should not say or ask.
I would ask for a list but I'm sure there's many many things that could be on that list.
Some things, my friends are surprised I get away with. If they're watching me as I talk to a girl, they'll often jump in and say: what? You can't say that! That's weird! (they even think its weird when I approach strangers and talk to them)
While the girl didn't think anything of it.
Anyway, can you go into depth about ridding ourselves of filters we have and having social freedom?
I really think my filters are what's holding me back from getting good at deep diving. I'm fitting too much into the mold you have for the deep diving article and I'm avoiding things that I assume are poison for my seduction.

Wes.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Filtering

Author

Wes-

Ah, I didn't know you were an MM guy. The only guys I've known who did well with Mystery Method were guys who were already self-taught naturals who were getting laid consistently already, and then used MM to add structure and process to their game that allowed them to up the consistency further. The guys I used to see who turned to MM as their entry into sleeping with women would have just what you had happened - they get constrained by a bunch of rules that are useful when implemented properly, but that new guys never implement right, and they end up becoming "structure zealots" who don't really understand WHY the structure is designed the way it is… sort of like red tape bureaucracies that have forgotten why all the rules are there and the spirit of them, and just follow them for the sake of following them.

It's actually MUCH easier to take a guy with zero experience and get him results with girls than it is to take a routine guy and get him results with girls, because he tends to have a lot of ingrained "rule-based" thinking about what he should and shouldn't do that really impedes his ability to change. The difference between filling an empty cup and filling one that's already full, you might say.

Most of my instruction has come from naturals. The only rule with naturals is NOTHING is out… so long as you phrase it right and she gets your meaning. You can say or do anything you want, from the most disgustingly saccharine things to the most clichéd to the most raunchily sexual, so long as she gets the spin you're putting on it. The sub-communication is all important… the words, not so much. That's one of the big differences between what the focus is on here and what it is with routine stuff… words are important, yes, but mainly for the sake of making your language more colorful and interesting, not so much any certain thing that is verboten or isn't.

For the friends, it sounds like you have a lot of white knights around you… the best thing to do here is to look quizzically at them and ask, "Why?" (assuming you're not with a girl; if you are, just ignore). And then they'll go into some fuzzy explanation, and you'll say, "If I listen to you, will it get me laid more? Or get me more girlfriends?" (in a very genuine, "no, I really want to know" tone) and they'll stumble around, and you'll chuckle a bit, and say, "Are you getting laid a lot right now?" in a half-skeptical, half-inquisitive tone, and they'll stutter step and get flustered and you can say, "Tell you what. How about a friendly bet. I do what I'm doing, and you do what you're doing, and let's see who can get to 5 new girls in bed the fastest. You game?" They'll never bother you on girl stuff again.

And for the filters… I would suggest that rather than adhering to any hard and fast rules, fashion yourself as more an explorer. Take the general idea of a thing (say, deep diving), and ask yourself, "I wonder what happens if I deep dive a girl and talk to her about X." You can talk about whatever you want - talk about things I've said you usually want to stay away from (past relationships, for instance). See what kinds of results you get. You might have different experiences that diverge from mine or others'… everyone has his own little things.

You won't find yours until you start exploring down all those little "forbidden" paths that other people have told you not to go down because they "don't work" and seeing what you can find. In my experience, there's always a way to make the unworkable work - sometimes it just hasn't been discovered, or covered all that well yet.

Chase

Troy's picture

failure and success


Hey Chase,

There is a lot on my mind lately and it's stressing, embarassing and making me feel suicidal. I remember you saying in several of your articles that as a teen you went through a lot of problems growing up and i find it relatable or at least most of it.

I am one of your high school readers and i've comment and asked for advice from you Chase and i must greatly thank you for your help as always.

I am currently experiencing several problems: verbal bullying, physical bullying (very rare though), depression ( im working on ridding it but my problems just keep overcoming my mental strength as i try to fix my problems), name calling, rejection (by persons at school, on the road, even at church), anxiety, slight rejection by parents in favor of my smaller siblings for most things), ghetto guys thinking i am gay because i am most times alone and wanting to fight me, people looking at me and thinking i am crazy, and me now just feeling suicidal.

Now i want to fix my problems and i hate the idea of even writing this but i feel as if all my motivation and drive to push forward is almost gone. I dont want to put all this negative feelings in writing but i feel SUICIDAL RIGHT NOW!

I believe in going for what i want making myself be IRRESTIBLE to women and make my social skills good to a tee and helping other people as well just as you are doing.

I have a few questions:
1) How do i deal with verbal bullying? It tends to stick on me since i seem like an easy target because i walk and spend most of my time alone most times since no one will walk with me and i keep getting rejected after trying to spend time with people.

2) How do i deal with suicidal feelings since it is worst but related to depression?

3) How do i keep motivated when everything seems tough to handle. I'd like to see a post on " keeping motivation when the going gets tough" if this interests you as a topic and you dont completely oppose to this topic. Maybe a few motivation articles would be great Thanks:)

4) What are some of the signs of a crazy person (based on there non-verbals and the stupid things they say sometimes ?) Persons say i am crazy because i smile like a goofball when people talk to me and i say weird things. How do i deal with this? This started happening when i was young and the teachers and chidren laughing at me for something weird i did and it put in a doubt and hesitation. The article on " the x factor about keeping a vibe has been causing me to feel like i am on drugs and constant smiling on my face but depression on the in me most times even when smiling. Id like to here your advice on this issue.
thanks much!

-Troy!

Moon's picture

antidepressant


For suicidal thoughts due to depression, I highly recommend you to seek a prescription of antidepressant, at least for a little while, it will make restore your energy and mood, see life brighter, relieve anxiety and thus be able to analyse thoroughly and emotionlessly how you act and how people respond.
Cheers, i really hope you all the best mate, this is no fun what you're going through

Chase Amante's picture

School Times

Author

Troy-

Sorry that's happening… school's no fun, especially when you have school with people who feel the need to ladder climb you with insults. I dealt with bullying when younger than you - it was worst when I was in fourth grade, the "school nerd" - but wore off between 6th and 7th grades, but not a good feeling when it was there.

I actually decided it was a rule for me in 8th grade - I wasn't being bullied anymore, and I was getting a lot more respect then, but I was becoming a lot more sensitive to my reputation - anyone lays a finger on me and he's getting his ass kicked. I was quite skinny and had never been in a fight before high school (not one I fought back in, anyway), but I traded punches a few times with kids in high school who tried to push their limits - and it only ever did happen a few times.

Keep in mind that bullies only pick on people who don't fight back. One of the reasons I stopped getting bullied was because I started verbally tearing apart anyone who insulted me... I actually REALLY started enjoying this in 6th grade as I got better and better at it, and found myself increasingly disappointed at the fewer and fewer opportunities I had to own bullies as they started realizing that insulting me publicly always ended with me making them look like fools and them losing social status and me gaining it. Same deal with verbal bullying - if a guy thinks it's going to hurt for him to hurt you, he'll target someone else. Even if you lose the fight, if he knows he's going to come away from every attempt to bully you with a bloody nose or a black eye, he'll quit trying very quickly. Simple operant conditioning - no faster way to nix a behavior you don't like than responding with positive punishment.

As for suicidal thoughts - I agree with Moon... if you're having these and they're frequent and compelling, it's time for meds. You can always reduce the dose and teach yourself to operate without them later, but when you're in crisis mode, you need to right the ship ASAP. Longer term... I think you only have another year or two of high school, right? It feels like the whole world is high school when you're in it, but the real world is 7 billion people, and none of them give a fuck about what's happening in your high school. It's big to you and your classmates, but it's completely irrelevant to everybody else. After you graduate, you go off to build a new life elsewhere, and nobody from high school even has anything to do with you. I haven't talked to anyone from my high school since my 5-year reunion 7 years ago (I missed my 10-year one... wasn't able to make it back home then). I think there were 2 or 3 kids from my high school at the college I went to, and I never ran into any of them.

Intermediate term, don't let people put their own bad emotions on you (because that's what bullies are doing); it just sits inside you and builds and stews. When people dump bad emotions on you, just turn around and immediately dump them right back, the same way you got them. Someone insults you? Insult him back (and do it better). Someone shoves you? Shove him back, and get ready for a fight (punch him in the nose or head butt him - freaks people out).

Trust me - it feels GREAT. You feel like a champ. And the other guy is like, "What happened?"

And the weirdest thing about it is that the kids who try to bully you that you then trade fists with ALWAYS come up to you later and try to be cool with you and want to be your friend. I've never understood this, and my reaction was always, "Uh... yeah, hey, what's up," while thinking why are you talking to me, man? Did you forget you tried to rough me up and I roughed you up instead? What makes you think I want to be your friend? Jesus!

When I was a kid, my mother used to tell me that the people who bully you REALLY want to be your friend but don't know how, and I always thought that was just some nonsense to try to make me feel better. But after I started catching those kids back with their own medicine x2, they really started acting subservient around me and trying to be my friend. It was surreal. It doesn't make sense until you realize they come from broken homes where their parents abuse or ignore them, and they're really looking for relationships where they are abused by a dominant party... they abuse in order to provoke others into abusing them back.

Motivation - I'll add it to the article queue. However, I will add that it's mainly just being able to say, "Fuck it, I've got nothing better to do - I might as well knuckle down and make some good things happenin my life, build up experiences, and work on my skill sets." If high school sucks, treat it like a prison sentence where you get free in 2 years (or whatever); are you going to mope for 2 years and feel bad for yourself, or are you going to train yourself to the hilt in all the most important skills you can so that when you get out you can hit the ground running?

As for crazy, there are so many different flavors of crazy that it depends on what you're talking about. In my opinion, so long as you aren't hallucinating, talking to people who aren't there, bursting into tears at odd moments, or hurting children or small animals, you're pretty much sane. Saying weird things depends on what that means; I had girlfriend once whom people told said strange things sometimes, but she was actually just really smart and happy and sociable and her mind was always running a mile a minute and sometimes she'd just run through half a conversation already between different points so would come out with something seemingly random at times; on the other hand, I had a friend with benefits once who talked to me about the rocks in the sky and how amazing it was that I knew what she was talking about (I'd said nothing to this effect) and didn't think she was crazy like everyone else... now that girl was crazy, and needed to be on medication (and actually had been, but didn't want it... I didn't see her after that crazy talk incident - crazy people are scary).

I'd really try to address your emotions, probably with medication for the depression / suicidal thoughts, just to get free of that and lift those chains, and then chipping away at the vestiges of your depression with retraining your brain to focus on the future instead of the past/present. Depression is a disease of the "now"; you want results now, but don't have them; you want change now, but don't have it; you want to feel good now, but don't feel that way. When you're focused on the future, the now becomes irrelevant... unless you're burning out, what you feel now doesn't matter, because what's really interesting is where you're going to be a few years from now - and the only way you get there then is by working on the things you need to work on now.

Also - random suggestion, but please do really consider - think hard about taking up music. There's nothing quite like dumping out all your bad emotions into a powerful act of creation... I didn't take it up until college, but I wish I'd done it sooner. It's amazingly easy to create great original tunes with GarageBand's loops on Mac, and then just write and record whatever lyrics you want. There are similar programs for Windows (I used to use FL Studio back in the day, but it didn't have loops; no idea what it's like these days). Not only is it cathartic, but you're training your voice, training your ability to write compelling pieces, and training your musical ability, something that is very attractive to women (a few years down the road, once you're not a terrible beginner anymore ;).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

this ones jumbled


Hey chase,
ve really got myself into a jumbled up situation. there is this girl good friend of mine now and also we share the same friend circle. We have been constantly in touch for almost 8 months now. Her best guy friend is also one my closest friends. We happened to be good friends who just flirted at odd times . I sort of like this girl .But what happened was one fine day there was an escalation window. She made an excuse to end up in my room in the night. But i missed to pick it and ended up having a few more friends over. It was surely a missed opportunity. since then she continued chasing me as friend . But when i realised the missed opportunity i began chasing investing and also persisting . But since then she is giving me mixed signals. Hang out and flirt but am not able to move her at all or isolate her for escalation. Now am stuck. Its my regular hangout group. I realise the best solution is to see other girls. but am not sure if i should drop the girl entirely or keep persisting .

Chase Amante's picture

Re: this ones jumbled

Author

Anon-

The magic cure-all for these situations is preselection. Basically, you were only interesting to her when she wasn't sure if she could have you... once you started chasing, she knew, and you became uninteresting. You can cut contact and maybe pick up with her later on down the road and there might be a difference... but if you really want something to happen now, find a way to let her see you with pretty girls flirting with you and attracted to you and vying for you. It'll be like a light switch - she'll go from playing coy to hot pursuit in the blink of an eye - the more attractive the girl and the more clearly into you she is, the stronger this effect will be.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Lying


Chase, I fear I may be a compulsive liar. In fact, I know I am. I've been lying ever since I started school. Mostly it's about small things. "Did you do this?" or when people ask me what I do (I recently started my own online business) I would say I'm still at my old job. These aren't great examples but I have many more. Let's just say lying is a part of my day.

I seriously want to change this. What would the steps I would need to take.

I notice I lie often when telling stories to others. I would change the details around to make it much more interesting or funnier. Or I would lie to a girl. There was a girl I met at a club. We hit it off, making out etc and we had a date planned. However, I told her I was 21(im 18), went to her university, told her about my travels in China that haven't happened yet. Suffice to say it was an embarassing conversation when I had to tell her...

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Chase Amante's picture

Quitting Lying

Author

Anon-

I don't have experience addressing this personally - my friends who are compulsive liars or exaggerators I've eventually fallen out with at some point or another... even when they realize it's a problem, and own up to it, I find they very often are only just "adjusting the lies downwards" to something more maintainable because their lies had grown so large and outlandish that they couldn't keep up with them anymore - they still continue to lie, just not as big as they were before. It used to be entertaining for me (I'm pretty good at seeing through lies, and it was a good way of testing both my lie detector abilities and my investigative prowess at uncovering the truth), but eventually it just got old and annoying.

However, I will say that, at least originally, lying starts out as some mix of fear-based and control-based behavior - e.g., one's afraid one can't get the outcome one wants with the truth, so turns to lying instead. Eventually it can become a habit where you just lie all the time and think nothing of it.

A brief Google search finds some interesting links, including "How to Stop Compulsive Lying", written by a therapist, and a forum thread titled "I'm a compulsive liar.. How to stop?" One forum post that stood out to me was this one, by someone named B. Niles (wonder if that's his real name...!):

“I actually just signed up so I could comment on this. I just wanted to tell you I used to be a compulsive liar.I stopped myself I can tell you how too. You need to confirm that you have a problem, on a daily basis. You also need to adress it on a daily basis. Once you start pointing the problem out to yourself everyday. You can start to work on it and get better. Point out on a daily basis that these problems are dramatically effecting your well being and life. It's just like quitting smoking I've done and that's when I knew I could overcome this problem too. They are both addictions, a good way to stop is to break your train of thought. You can break the train of thought before and during a lie. To correct yourself and keep from saying lie's. Basically try very hard to think before you speak. Hope this was helpful.”

... which sounds exactly like the same process I wrote about using to beat depression in "How to Overcome Depression." If the solution is the same, the affliction is likely the same, too - a pathway gets carved in the brain, and the mind just gets used to taking that path way again and again. The only way you get out of it is spending a few months vigilantly policing your thoughts and running pattern interrupts in your brain whenever you catch yourself reverting to the old pathway (compulsive lying).

Assuming it's the same, it'll likely take about a month of very high vigilance on your thought and never backing down from forcing yourself to not lie... and then after the first month it gets a lot easier, and within a few months the process starts automating itself. After a little while, with disuse, the old pathway in the brain begins to grow over - and then you're free from it.

But, you've got to do the hard work of detouring your thoughts away from the well-worn path and into the jungle for a while, first.

Chase

Japandy's picture

Hey Chase, your articles tend


Hey Chase, your articles tend to have great timing, at times being specifically relevant to what is going on in my life at that moment. Quite odd! I've actually heard others say something similar!

Anyway I have been thinking about some things that may help my progress. I remember an article you did on time orientation and how people experience life in different timezones. I believe my brain has pretty much been newly programmed for a hedonistic vicarious lifestyle and is sliding in that direction. It almost what I imagine it might feel to battle a drug addiction.

There are plenty of things I want to do like figure out a great butternut squash recipe, writing music, drawing, going out and approaching women, and just experiencing life, yet there is the TV and computer which can provide instant stimuli and a quick fix. Making a great soup or meeting a new girl can be a lot of work but is so much more gratifying than surfing the web. I need some rehab from a vicarious-life.

Perhaps figuring out how to cultivate a curiosity for the unknown and adventure rather than instant gratification would end this madness! Thanks for your help so far Chase. In the mean time, I'll be working on kicking that habit.

Chase Amante's picture

TV / Web

Author

Japandy-

It's easy to get sucked into those things.

I quit television in 2002 when I realized it was adding exactly nothing to my life (it was easy to do at the time, as all the shows I'd been watching all seemed to have their series' finales that year). Movies were still okay - it's hard to get too hooked on movies. Even with a really good series... there's only so much Rocky you can watch in one sitting, no matter how enjoyable and motivating it is.

The Internet I've discovered has become far less addicting now that I'm off social media. Like movies, there's only so much science / tech news you can consume in a day before you go nuts and need to do something else.

Since it's something you're torn over, I'd recommend sitting down and listing the things that are sucking up your time, and then asking yourself two questions:

  • What does this add to my life? and
  • What does this take away from my life?

Based on your answers to those two things, decide if the thing is something to keep around, or something to get rid of.

For me, chucking my TV felt great; and shutting down social media, while difficult, provided a surge of "freedom!" feelings as soon as it was done (and some temptation to get back on the first few weeks, which went away, never to return - I spent four years on there, building up awesome profiles, but no one would ever get me back on social again).

You may find that television and social media are valuable parts of your life you simply cannot do without, and contribute far more than they takeaway.

But I doubt it.

I think what you're going to find is the the minuses are many more than the plusses - and if that's the case, you know what you have to do.

Chase

Balla's picture

Am i becoming natural or a pua?/Becoming natural in college


Chase so am I learning to become natural by reading your stuff or becoming a Pua?

I know you said you teach 80% natural, but im learning from you which means im not natural, so does that make me a pua?

Anyway, I feel im a natural, but not to the extent of what you teach.

I just got laid here and there but I got stuck alot along the way if I ever had a problem with women.

one question I want to know is do I count as a natural if I got girls but didn't get a high lay count?

What I mean is when I was younger I wasnt jumping on every girl and was very picky, what I would do is sleep with one girl for a while and so forth. I basically slept with a girl alot of times and then id try here and there for another girl, but If I couldn't get them then that be it id go on a dry spell until I hit it off again.

my main question is what should I do since I still have college left as an option to sleep with many horny women?

I have a few years left, and im in my early twenties, but I won't tell anybody.

What should I do though to get my natural game down and notches up while in college and at work? Should I just be more social and use your stuff?

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Am i becoming natural or a pua?/Becoming natural in college

Author

Balla-

Well, if you're using the material on this site, you're firmly on the road to becoming a natural... but whether you get there or not depends on how much you really do, how hard you work, and how well you implement what you need to implement.

Deciding who is a "natural" or not is something of a subjective judgment call... but to me, a guy is only a natural if he's racked up a reasonably impressive lay count (the earlier, the better). I've heard various guys describe as "naturals" guys who were good at talking to girls, and things like this, but didn't have high lay counts, but what we're talking about here is a natural at getting women in bed... and if all a guy's doing is chatting girls up, that's not enough to qualify for this particular designation.

Also, if you were a natural, you wouldn't need so much advice - or to ask if you were a natural or not, Balla ;)

It sounds like you certainly do still have college left - so I wouldn't worry about that too much. Just, yes - be social; be very cool; get to know the people who throw the good parties; and if you REALLY want to get your experience levels up, join a good frat... there are certain frats that have access to the choicest sorority girls on campus - do a little research and see which ones (I couldn't tell you myself - I steered clear of the frats because the hazing activities sounded really lame and I didn't like the idea of taking orders from anyone, but if I had to do college over again I would've done it - I had some opportunities to join cool frats with cool guys, but thought I was "above" all that - silly me back then).

Chase

Harvey's picture

Changing Beliefs


Chase,

I've been looking for an article on changing beliefs, is there one? I.e. how to change your beliefs and mindset, or would you say that you just have to take action and the beliefs will follow? I feel like i'm having a hard time changing my self image and that it keeps reverting back to normal when I make progress.

Harvey's picture

I've found that when I'm


I've found that when I'm feeling confident, or in "state" if you will, that I can do anything I want including chasing women and telling them how much I like them etc. and that it works for me. Almost like a I see something special about you and you're meant to be with me and I'll do anything to get you. Doesn't this make a girl feel special which is what she ultimately wants? Perhaps this is natural for my personality type and that as long as I'm not coming from a needy POV that this is what I should embrace? Or do you see any flaws with this approach?

Chase Amante's picture

Mindsets, State

Author

Harvey-

On changing how you think about things, see the "Mindsets" tab - everything on there is about instilling various different beliefs. For the actual process of inculcating yourself with beliefs, see:

State I'm not a huge fan of - see "Going Out to Meet Women Even When You Don’t Want to" - though if you like state, Ricardus has a 5-part series on state control on the site here that really resonated with a lot of the readers - first part is here: "How to Pick Up Girls: The Success Factor Part I."

Chase

triannad12's picture

Too many new guys writing Imy


Too many new guys writing Imy lot's.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Too many new guys writing Imy

Author

Aye... new blood is good, necessary, and vital, but the "comments and questions" side of things starts feeling more and more like déjà vu the more you do it.

Chase

Knight's picture

Natural


Well, I'm the most awkward person around but when I talk to girls I feel so alive. I wanted a number within ten minutes, just got it done in five. As others say every day - you've helped us so much.

George Montague's picture

Boredom


As always, very insightful, Chase.

Recently, I've been trying to incorporate a tint of boredom into my interactions, when it feels as though threads are not conducive to moving the interaction forward.

Is there a proper way to go about using boredom, in a way that has women work harder at keeping my attention and impressing me, rather than having them go cold, or messing up attainability?

Thanks again,
George.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Boredom

Author

George-

Yes - and I'll add this one to the article list. But basically, you don't want to resort to boredom until you've tried to move things forward and she's declined to do so with you - you've tried, she's declined, you get bored. You don't act overly dramatic, just as though the interaction has become less interesting to you... I'm sure you've met women who've done this to you after they've asked you for this or that, and you know how it feels (e.g., imagine you approach some girl awkwardly, she asks for a drink, you say "no", and she starts acting very bored... inside, you panic a little bit, and maybe - if you're like a lot of guys - even end up buying her the drink).

When she does what you wanted her to do to win your attention back, you don't want to just spring back to attention, either - make it more of a gradual "I'm becoming gradually re-interested in you again - tell me more" type feel instead.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

How to get over the paying vs non paying awkwardness


Hey Chase,

I have a question for you. If I am dating a girl just for fun, no sex, and to work on my conversation skills, would you ever pay for the date? It seems like every date I have ever been on the girl insisted that she pay it half half. This surprises me because I had always thought there would be girls who want guys to pay for them.

I sometimes run into awkward situations where I say, its ok, ill pay and theres an awkwardness. At the same time, I dont want to seem like I am cheap and some times I am dating asian girls and I dont know how the customs work there and am deathly afraid of seeming like a cheapo.

Usually, for example, if I am getting lunch with a girl, we are usually waiting in line and when its our turn, it gets awkward because I usually order, then offer to pay, then she senses that there is awkwardness in me paying, etc...

Do you have any ideas how to get rid of this or how I can know for sure if not paying is ok?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: How to get over the paying vs non paying awkwardness

Author

Anon-

It's different for women from different areas, but for Western women the breakdown is generally as follows:

  • Want the guy as just a friend: split the bill
  • Want the guy as a lover: split the bill, or she pays for him
  • Want the guy as a boyfriend/husband prospect: he pays for her

When you offer to pay for her, what you're essentially communicating is, "I'm courting you as a potential girlfriend," which is a very dicey proposition for most women in non-romantic / over-the-top dating situations these days in the West. e.g., if you were taking her to a fancy restaurant and were clearly boyfriend-caliber material, she'd be thrilled you were offering to pay; if you're taking her to a sandwich shop and you seem like an okay guy she's most comfortable with as a friend and you offer to pay, it's going to strike her like you've got the wrong idea about you and her (and letting you pay would set completely the wrong expectations for you, leading to trouble and awkwardness for her down the road).

So - if you're not playing the role of sexually exciting lover, and you're not courting a woman in an impressive, "let us be companions in life" kind of way, it's going to be most comfortable with most Western women if the two of you just split the bill.

With women from more conservative backgrounds, however, this rule is more flexible - women from Latin America, Asia, Eastern Europe, and conservative parts of the West are often more accustomed to men paying for them no matter the circumstance, including male friends, and only pay for themselves / the man if he seems like a very sexual, attractive man who is outside of what they can ordinarily get, and/or if he's provided so much value on the date that the woman senses paying for him is one small way she can contribute some value and make herself more likely to see him again.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Paying on dates


Hi Chase!

Just a fast question clarifying the one above, you had an article about 2 years ago saying how it was unnecessary to pay. Has your views changed thus far? Also, I am going on a "date" with a chinese girl this monday, I used quotation marks because its a bit ambiguous whether she sees me more as a friend or something more. If you are religious and wont have sex with her, would paying for her be a good idea for lunch?

also, was wondering if you had any ideas for a phenomenon I'd been experiencing on dates. I have been able to come across as high value and attractive to many girls by improving my game and recently noticed that girls a lot of times will vehemently protest me paying. There was a traditional girl I dated in taiwan who protested against me paying which really surprised me. Do you have any idea why this is? If they are really attracted to me, wouldnt the psychology be to let me pay and thus I become a long term boyfriend potential?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Paying on dates

Author

Anon-

Paying is more a function of contributing value - the less attractive you are to women relative to them, and more in-pursuit of them you are relative to how in-pursuit of you they are, the more often you'll have to pay; the reverse is also true. As you level up in attractiveness and aptitude with women, the girls you date begin to feel more and more like letting you pay for them is simply asking too much of you, and is going to make you less likely to come out and see them again (because it'll have been too much of a one-way value exchange from you to them, disincentivizing you from wanting a repeat).

So - if they feel like you're chasing them hard, and they're far more desirable than you, than yes - you will be expected to pay. Alternately, if things feel very relaxed and/or like they're chasing after you, and you're sufficiently high value as a friend or mate compared to them, they're going to feel increasingly uncomfortable at the idea of you paying for them - or even, eventually, you paying anything at all.

Chase

mande2013's picture

Dear Chase: This doesn't


Dear Chase:

This doesn't directly relate to the article at hand, but I came across your piece about the four types of women, which interested me, but I figured if I posted on the comments section for that article it wouldn't get noticed, since it's a little old. So here it goes. I'm a 25 year old male, and I would consider myself strong and inexperienced. So my dilemma is this. It seems finding a soft and inexperienced female who's both high quality (read: attractive and other adjective you want to throw in) and age appropriate would be a lost cause at this point, and I'm not willing to date below 21 or so, although I could be wrong on that first point. Okay, maybe I could swing for a 20 year old were she really immature. In any case, keep up the engaging advice

Cheers,

mande2013

Chase Amante's picture

Finding an FT/IN

Author

Mande-

This largely comes down to where and how you're meeting women, the kinds of women you're targeting, and your location in general. For instance, if you go to church meetings (from what I hear from friends), you can still meet women in their early 20s who fall into the FT/IN type. You may also meet some of these from time to time at charity events, or other events that have some tie to religious communities. Some fresh-off-the-boat women from Latin America or Asia can fall into this category as well, sometimes at slightly older ages than you'll be able to find Western women in this category at.

Of course, in areas like the American Midwest / Deep South, Germany's Bavaria, rural parts of Canada / Europe, or less developed Asian / Latin countries like Malaysia, China, Bolivia, and Peru, you can find these women in much greater abundance than in dense urban areas and more progressive cities / countries - having lots of dating options very quickly rids most women of their inexperience.

Chase

Billy's picture

Chase vs. the Anti-Chase?


Chase, a smart, beautiful woman I was dating left me for some guy. He is the rebel sort, like a thug. I realize I may not get a straight honest answer here, but are the tips you espouse here directed toward a specific kind of guy who's interested in a specific type of woman? This guy I wouldn't say has much game or is particularly sexy or charming. He's masculine and I'm guessing has a carefree attitude which is probably fun. If the girl chooses him, should I be on this site learning how to make girls chase me and play hard and lose the girl while this guy does none of those?

In your opinion is there a model of the most ideal, attractive man who appeals to most women or are you simply saying this is what works for you (and the man you personally want to be) and the type of women you're interested in (which I'm guessing isn't guys like that)? You don't come across as the conventional alpha, and although that is a nebulous concept, how do you explain what happened here? Do you think you could get the girl over that guy and why is she choosing him if he's lacking so many qualities like sexy, smart and successful? Is that just the archetype some girls have a preference for or is it a phase she'll grow out of?

Chase Amante's picture

Masculinity and Attitude

Author

Billy-

If I'm reading right, you had a girlfriend you'd been seeing and sleeping with for a while, and she left you for a more masculine, carefree man, yeah? If anything, I'd say it sounds like he was following more of the advice on this site than you were(!) - here's what I mean:

Masculinity:

Attitude:

The objective in attraction is to be masculine and carefree. I can't say I've met any man who's been all that successful with women who isn't these. The good news is that you can become them - it isn't something you're born as. I get told repeatedly by just about everyone I know - from very beautiful women to very large, muscular men - that my presence is imposing and intimidating, and that I am a very strong, dominant individual. That's 100% learned - as a child, I was soft, sensitive, and spent more time reading books and singing songs than roughhousing or beating people up (something that people who know me in real life tell me they have a hard time imagining).

For more specifics on why this girl left you, see these two articles:

Both go into a good bit of detail on why women leave / get out / "trade up" - and the spotlight is always on you as the cause - not the other guy. Most people want to blame the competitor when they lose, but frankly, if you work on yourself, most "competitors" won't be competition all that long.

(also, in case I misread, and this is a girl you were taking too long with and hadn't slept with yet, see this article: "How to Get Girls: The Last Post You'll Ever Need" - it will open your eyes)

As for how I'd stack up against this guy - I don't know him, haven't met him, don't know the girl, haven't met her, am not 100% clear on the specifics of the situation, and, in any event, there are no 100% guarantees for anything in life, much as most people would like to have them - anyone who gave you assurances that yes, he could absolutely XYZ for certain in any given situation is blowing smoke. Nothing's 100%. That said, if you want examples of banishing the competition to irrelevancy in a pickup environment, see these:

As for whether women "grow out of" the preference for powerful, carefree men - they don't really "grow out of" this, though they do reach an age (early to mid 30s) where they become somewhat embittered over their inability to rein in any of these more attractive men, and begin casting about for a more stable provider-type man who can assure them companionship and a family and resources as they age and lose their appeal to their more preferred type of man. That said... the desire for the more masculine man will always be there - see "What Women Think About Their Husbands." You're well-advised to get masculinity handled - there's simply not a substitute for it, just as if you look at the women you find attractive, an un-feminine woman will simply never hold a candle to very feminine one when it comes to raw animal attraction... no matter how great a gal that un-feminine one might happen to be.

Chase

Billy's picture

Thanks for the reply. Well,


Thanks for the reply. Well, would you say that a party girl is more likely to prefer a carefree guy who isn't really successful and just goes to the bar every night? Whereas a good girl with a passion for her hobbies is more likely to choose a man like you who is more reserved, quietly powerful and stable? What i'm trying to figure out is, why do you preach certain traits over others? No matter how carefree i become, i'll never be as carefree as the guy who really just does not give a shit and only wants to have fun all the time. He will also never be the "high value" guy who everyone wants the attention of, who is sexy and charming. So does it come down to a preference of the girl and the kind of man you are trying to be? What is your rationale behind your teachings?

If you say, I can learn to be masculine (or another trait), how do I figure out how much along the spectrum of masculinity is the right amount for me? I'm assuming you don't suggest I embrace my natural personality.

Anonymous's picture

Sexual tension


There's this girl I know that I think I'm in the friendzone with, or used to be in the friendzone with. She used to be just very nice to me and somewhat flirty. Now she stares at me for a very long time then I stare at her and she is still staring. It's kind of awkward. She also touches me more. But oddly she is more mean and kind of avoids me alot too.. Chase do you think that I got out of the friendzone and she has this sort of sexual tension towards me? I would ask her out but I'm not really sure..

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Sexual tension

Author

Anon-

Yes, there are clearly boat loads of sexual tension there - it's just always a little weird transitioning from "just a platonic friend" to "some guy I want to go to bed with" for most girls, unless you do a very good job easing the transition.

I'd just ask her to come hang out with me some time, and have a few drinks (not too many; just one or two - enough for her to say, "Oh God, I can't believe that happened! We've been friends FOREVER - I never thought we'd have SEX!"), then make it happen.

Chase

JS's picture

College conversation, deep diving trouble


Chase,

This website has been instrumental for me in changing the way I look at my potential with women and I'm even hearing it from girls whom I already hang out with telling me that I've "changed", "seem more confident" and I really can't thank you enough.

I keep being faced with the same roadblock in my conversations however: I'm in college, and whenever I find myself trying to get passed small-talk into deep dive, often these two things happen:
1- I get a feeling this deep conversation is out of place (usually at a bar, house party), kind of like I'm making the conversation too heavy for the setting.
2- A lot of the girls I meet don't seem to have that much to them. Maybe I'm missing a key thing in dive technique, but too many times the girl I meet says she doesn't know why she chose her major or doesn't do much to spice up her life beyond watching some TV series, hitting up bars and clubs. I hear close to nothing that I can build a meaningful connection on, and it just sounds like an interview that she's botching.
There is always the (big) possibility that its just my technique that's not there yet, but could it be that college conversations (especially with the younger students) needs a more dumbed-down approach ? Is this a rare case where I need to fill in for their lack of input with my own interesting input? I can't figure this one out. It's like I'm either making the exchange too heavy for the moment, or too meaningless to lead anywhere.

If I don't get answered, I might post this question again on a more recent article as I'm not sure how the Q&A works here. Its not to be annoying, promise :)

Thanks for everything and best of luck with your business goals,
JS

Chase Amante's picture

Re: College conversation, deep diving trouble

Author

JS-

Deep diving can take a little while to get the hang of - you basically need to help her find out what's interesting about herself so she can tell you about it. College girls make up a healthy chunk of my "diet", so to speak, and I never have trouble with it - in fact, I first started playing around with it with college girls.

One tip that might help is that you want to transition them very quickly into talking about dreams, motivations, and speculative plans - e.g., her deep-seated passions that she's always had but never talked about because she thought other people would think they're silly, or she's never acted on them; getting her to envision her future and describe it to you; etc.

If you haven't seen them, these articles should be useful:

In bars / parties, you don't want to start deep diving until you've already gotten to the point where she's excited to be talking to you, and her field of awareness has narrowed down mostly to just you - this is very often after you've moved her for the first time.

Before then, you'll mostly want to stick with making small talk and playful banter / flirting / teasing to build up and cement attraction prior to securing a move, where you'll get into more deep diving - see these articles on those:

When you get to deep diving, think of the objective as being getting OFF the facts and into the emotions - she likes a TV show! Great! Why does she like that TV show? What is it about the characters she relates to? What does she see of herself in them? Once she's talked about it, you can start cold reading her and pointing out how she's talked a lot about one character - clearly that's the one she feels like is most similar to her. She likes clubbing? Fantastic - what is it about clubbing she loves so much? Is it the chance to be social? To meet new people? To let her hair down and just dance? Is it that she needs a break from the ordinary, to bust her routine, and just go do something crazy and wild where she doesn't have to worry so much about keeping up appearances?

Forget the facts. Get to the emotions.

And, once the talk about emotions runs out... and she's staring you down hard... you usually then will have her permission to just take her home and do naughty things with her.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Keep Emotional Problems/Issues away from women??


Is it recommended to keep your emotional problems/issues separate from seduction?

Some girls (that I've known for more than couple months) seemed to have been of the stock where if I ever talked about my personal emotional issues (like the deep shit that you become aware of as you gain emotional IQ/mastery) with them, they gave me a look like how dare I speak about myself more than they talked about themselves...that's not how it's supposed to go!! Men, including lovers are people too, and have emotional moments (maybe a overbearing boss or a horrible relationship with parents or frustration from not being able to start a business or whatever). What I really wanted was for them to provide me with the value (same empathy/support) that I provided them, but they didn't really seem to care all that much...(it was more of a fake care, but not a real genuine OMG I feel your pain). Obviously they couldn't (nor volunteered) to really help me out and provide me with advice (even when asked), just an awkward silence then they turned the conversation back on them.

Have you ever seen this? What are your thoughts? Do you advise to keep have a support system separate and apart from seduction, and to not clue women into what you're feeling?

I am clueless on this. But maybe it's not women. Thing is I've seen a similar thing from my family too. Growing up, they weren't really equipped to deal with my emotional needs. Perhaps I presented them wrong? Conversation is part presentation...anyways the result was thatI just kept shit bottled up inside, becoming aloof and not even recognizing it until much later. Now I'm more of a fixer, but it's really good to have someone around that says "i understand how you feel...try this." Never had that, not even from family.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Keep Emotional Problems/Issues away from women??

Author

Anon-

Normally, yes… emotional problems will wreck you with most people, and cause most distance themselves from you. It's easy for others to start seeing you as an emotional vampire if you're frequently in emotional distress and they're having to tend to repeat emotional wounds… the normal behavior is to first feel bad for someone doing this, then to feel disgusted if it keeps happening, then to start distancing yourself. I've had a number of people in my life I've distanced myself from because they became emotional and wouldn't stop being emotional - it just becomes very distracting.

Alternately, if you're experiencing ongoing emotional problems and it isn't something you will or can fix, it's probably best to be fairly upfront about these - they can sometimes lend you an air of Byronic vulnerability, and they'll screen out the people who want nothing to do with an emotional hot mess and screen in the people who want to play savior / emotional rock. Those are the individuals with superman syndrome - something I'd normally tell people to stay away from being, but in your case, these might be exactly the kinds of friends / lovers you'll need.

If it's more shorter term emotional problems you're experiencing, and they aren't that frequent an occurrence, I'd actually advise you to find an outlet other than venting to people to alleviate these feelings - start a journal, start a blog, take up a physical sport like weight lifting or martial arts, start making music - find some way to get the energy out that isn't destructive to your personal relationships. Then you won't need people around you playing the role of superman, and can get more normal, not-so-co-dependent individuals around and won't be scaring them off by shifting your emotional burdens off your shoulders and onto theirs.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Let me set the record


Let me set the record straight. When I said "emotional problems" I meant speaking about issues that annoy or piss me off in some form or fashion. I get annoyed very easily, and I've held it in most of my life. The smaller issues I deal with, but the larger issues I think it takes confidence to show that side of yourself, to become self-aware and face the music. The way I look at socializing is what's the point of having someone around in any significant capacity if they are scared off when I speak about the issues that I am passionate about (even if some of those issues are things that annoy or piss me off... that I am trying to deal with on my own). It's more about having someone care and listen, rather than playing "superman" as you call it.

You say find an outlet other than venting negative feelings to people. The thing is, my interactions aren't always negative, just the occasional topic or two. Thing is, after deep diving and getting to know women more deeply, what happens inevitably if I let them is that they begin to vent their issues to me. It's like I'm the therapist and they feel emboldened to come to me with their issues. I don't shun them, I actually like getting to know who people REALLY are...the things you learn are fascinating, when you're nonjudgmental. The point I'm trying to make tho, is why is it ok for them to vent to me, but when I vent to them (occasionally) they appear uninterested in my problems or are unable to help. Isn't it supposed to be a two way street? Or do women expect men to have a listening, ear, give them sex, and be strong, calm, but unemotional/positive at ALL TIMES?

Are you suggesting that the better option is to hide everything that bothers you inside, for fear that other people will reject you if you open up to them more? To act like a robot as if nothing affects you when that's not true at all? Wanting someone show empathy and just listen isn't equivalent to needing a "superman." I can understand if someone is ALWAYS negative, then yes being around them is more trouble than it's worth. But everyone has needs, so what's the point of wasting any effort becoming close to people, if you can't self-disclose the occasional significant negative issue with them?

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