Just Friends: A Man's Worst Nightmare


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My girl was over and we were talking earlier about how difficult a time it is for a woman to find a quality guy she likes a lot. She spooled off a quick list of men she'd been on dates with who hadn't made the cut: there was the older doctor who lied about his age, and the guy she went to the movies with who had touched her arm and creeped her out. But the one who stood out the most to me was the one she described as her "good friend."

This was a guy who took her out to walk on the ice over a lake in town that had frozen over. There, the guy professed to her that he would satisfy all her needs. At the moment when he said that, she briefly asked herself, "Huh. Could I have sex with this guy?" Her answer was no, it'd be weird. He was her friend.

And then she said something that really stood out:

"I like him as a friend. We can talk about anything. I'm like his guy friend. And he's like my girlfriend."

I felt for this poor fella's misfortune: relegated to the position of, essentially, girlfriend. A sexless, masculinity-devoid excuse of a man, who willingly (though no doubt reluctantly) set his manhood aside to continue spending time with a woman.

She still keeps in touch with him, and (when she has a free night) grabs dinner with him (which of course he pays for), and tells him just about everything. And he still seems to be hoping, despite all this, that there's still a chance.

Meanwhile, my girl comes over here, pays for almost all the food we eat together, cooks for me, helps me clean and do laundry, and this guy's texting her hoping to get somewhere.

What's he doing wrong, and how have I not made the same mistakes?

 

Ending Up "Just Friends"

We've touched on ending up in the friend zone on here before in a couple of previous posts – in "Can I Help You?," about men who offer to help women out too much, and in "Overproviding Good Feelings," which discusses the danger of doing too many fun things with women. But now we're really going to dive into the subject.

Just how does some poor schmuck end up in the position of being "like a girlfriend;" how's a guy who wants to date some girl, or make her his girlfriend, or take her home and shag her silly end up being just friends?

There are three big determinants of whether a man will end up as no more than a woman's friend. They are as follows:

  1. Speed – or lack thereof. There's no getting around it – men who move fast with women get more girls, and they even do better with the higher quality girls. How come? Because, generally, the longer a man takes to move things forward with a woman, the less she's going to tell herself she likes him. If a guy "works on" a girl for weeks or months and still doesn't take a girl to bed, she's going to view him as a lot less "man" than she does a man who beds her the day or the night he meets her, or on their first date.

    And when she looks back at those scenarios and considers them, she's going to think to herself, "Wow, I went to bed with Tom a lot faster than I went to bed with Sam... I must've found Tom much more attractive than Sam if I went to bed with him so much faster. But poor Sam... he's a nice guy."
    You should also consider that a woman will tend to view the man who took her to bed the quickest as the most dominant, powerful man she's been with; so, you want to strive to be the fastest to bed a girl usually, particularly if you want to have a long-term relationship with her, because in relationships it's always favorable for you to have the woman viewing you as the strongest, most powerful man of her life.
  1. How much you invest in her. The Law of Least Effort comes into play here, as the more effort a man puts into getting together with a woman, the less she's going to consider him a valid romantic option. Women are most attracted to men who get them as effortlessly as possible; if a man gets her while visibly expending little effort, she reasons that she must be quite attracted to him to be doing these things with him despite his lack of investment. The reverse is true, as well: men who invest a great deal of time, effort, and energy investing in women tend to get thought of as unattractive men. If he's such a great catch, why does he have to work so hard to get her?

    This is the source of the friend zoned-guy's lament: "I've done so much for her, and then she goes and runs into the arms of that guy, who treats her like dirt! I just don't get it!" That guy looking on confusedly from the friends zone can thank the Law of Least Effort – and his failure to apply it with this girl – for his predicament.
  1. What emotions you show with her. Women are attracted to sexy, mysterious men. They're not, despite what television tells you much of the time, really all that into sensitive men who wear their hearts on their sleeves. You still ought to talk about emotion with women, but that's the thing – you'll be talking about it. Showing it, on the other hand, is something else altogether.

    One of the mistakes that men who get friend zoned make is that they often show a great deal of emotion. Whether that's because they're genuinely emotional men, or whether that's because they think they need to be emotionally expressive in order to win women's hearts, it's a turn off to girls. Showing emotion – whether hope or joy or jealousy or anger or concern or sadness or whatever – is bad for seduction.

    Think about women: they're nearly universally all emotional people. And emotional people need other emotional people around them about as much as they need a punch in the face. Emotional people, rather, seek out others who are "rock-like" and can be solid and unshakeable for them. Note that doesn't mean cold; cold people are scary, because women feel like they're not really building a real connection with them. You still should be warm, but you also should stick to talking about emotions rather than showing them.

Those are the Big 3 of ending up in the friend zone: moving too slow, investing too much, and showing too much emotion. And, naturally, those are three things that most men default to with any girl they like a lot: they move slow (to make sure they don't mess up), invest a lot (so the girl will like them for all they've done for her), and they show a great deal of emotion (so she'll see how deep they are and realize what good guys they are, or because they just can't control themselves around her and act jealous or hopeful or nervous).

 

Why You Really Don't Want to Be Her Friend

But hey, being friends ain't all that bad, right? You get to spend more time with a girl; you get to really get to know her; maybe even, with enough time, she starts realizing what a great guy you are, right?

Well... no, it doesn't actually amount to such a rosy deal. A man who's "just a friend" is effectively emasculated to a woman; she no longer considers him a sexual option. His power as a man – his ability to conquer and inseminate women – isn't even something a woman who's friend zoned him thinks about; actually, when I have girls tell me about their guy friends who are "just friends," whenever they talk about one of these guys' love lives they talk about it like it's some cute, funny thing; kind of like, "Oh, how cute, there's actually a girl out there who wants to have sex with my guy friend. Isn't that funny?"

I guess it depends how you take it. To me, this feels like one of the most patronizing, demeaning, disrespectful ways one human being can view another; as being completely devoid of any modicum of sex appeal. It's downright humiliating. Yet, many men sit there and maintain these relationships, because... why? I'm not really sure.

I recently had a girl try to friend zone me. It doesn't happen to me a whole lot, but I can smell it a mile away when it's going on. I mentioned her a week or so ago in "Dating on Your Terms;" she was the one I went on a date with, probably could've closed things out with had I pulled the trigger, but I moved too slow and this is a strong gal. Strong women don't tend to give out second chances all that often, and while I'd guessed she'd get in contact with me when I wrote up that post a week ago, I was right – she called me last Friday. Only thing was, she wasn't trying to meet up with me, per se – she was trying to get me to help her with something a friend needed that related to one of the businesses I'm running. I told her I didn't have the thing she was looking for so couldn't help her out this time. Then I told her to let me know when she was free the next week and we'd grab a bite.

Now, there're two ways this could go: the first would that what she really wanted was to see me again, and this was just her excuse to get in contact with me, in which case she wouldn't really care I didn't have the thing she asked me for and she'd be thrilled to have me ask her to spend time together again just the two of us.

The second way this could go was the way it actually did: she sounded annoyed I didn't have what she wanted, and hesitated to respond when I told her to let me know her schedule and we'd grab a bite, eventually giving me a very neutral, "Yeah, sure."

She wanted me in the friend zone.

 

Avoiding the Friend Zone

Being "just friends" with a woman is often going to be something that sucks up your time without providing any kind of realistic return on investment. Just like you aren't going to be good friends with every single man in your town, you also don't have the time and bandwidth to be friends with every single woman in your town, as nice as that might be. And just because a woman is someone you'd like to go to bed with, or have as a consort, or even a girlfriend, doesn't necessarily mean she's someone you'd like to have as a friend. In an ideal world, sure, you'd only sleep with top caliber women you'd love to have as pure friends as well, but this isn't an ideal world, it's the real one, and people sleep with people all the time they wouldn't want to be just friends with.

So, the first line of defense against getting friend zoned is knowing just what you do want from a woman you'd consider having as purely a friend. That's going to differ for each person, so here are the traits I look for a girl I'd accept as just my friend to have at least one of:

  • Top caliber social skills, contagious energy, and the "know" on where all the good parties and cool people are.
  • An ambitious, dynamic, and results-oriented personality, and I learn something from her every time we talk or hang out.
  • The tendency to be strongly beneficial toward my life in some other way or is integrating me into some crowd I want to integrate into (e.g., an actress who's pulling me into the acting community, or a girl from a specific local subculture who's bringing me into the fold).

In exchange, I offer… well, everything that women want from me. I've worked quite hard to turn myself into a very value-giving person, and pretty much everyone who spends time with me gets a large dose of value: positive, inspirational energy; solid, practical advice; a willing ear; the occasional witty remark; piercing insight; and the chance to be included in one of my many adventures, undertakings, or dreams. Not to mention I exude sexuality, which is always a great deal of fun for women to spend time basking in.

Needless to say, the more valuable a man you turn yourself into, the more women will begin to view you as an outstanding candidate to be friends with... and the more high quality friends you're going to have, and the less time you're going to have to be friends with every woman who comes along. So you must be discriminating.

Once you know where you draw the line at, though – which women qualify as solid friend material, and which women don't meet the cut – you'll know also exactly what you will and won't tolerate from women.

And once you know exactly what you will and won't tolerate from women, you're able to respond appropriately to women who try to banish you to the friend zone. Namely, you won't be going along with the platonic plans of any women who don't measure up with what you look for in your platonic friends.

That's Step 1. What's Step 2?

Step 2 for avoiding the friend zone is doing what you need to be doing – which, as you might suspect, is the opposite of what men who end up getting given the "let's just be friends" speech do:

  • Move fast. In your interactions with women, there is no room for timidity. Get girls moving with you, sitting with you, opening up to you, giving you their phone numbers or going home with you quick. Set up dates soon and with speed, and don't dawdle. Timid men dawdle. Sexy men move with urgency.
  • Invest little and get much in return. This is a bit of an art, because you want to be warm and accommodating and show that you're investing as well, but you want to do it in such a way that you simultaneously appear to be investing less than she is and conducting yourself and managing the interaction effortlessly. This includes conversation – if she isn't talking 75% of the time, you can do better – and it includes communication over distance – if you're getting into long, inefficient text exchanges, for instance, you might consider reading up a bit on how to text a girl. The more you invest, the "friendlier" you seem; the less you invest, the more sexy and edgy you appear.
  • Be calm in your shown emotions. Again, mind the difference between emotions you show, and emotions you discuss. I might be talking to a girl and say, "Yeah, I was really upset," but the way I'll say it will be in an almost bored voice tone. You'll say you were or are an emotion with your words, but you'll communicate strength and stability with your calm, neutral tonality.

 

What to Do When You're "Just Friends"

You probably won't like this advice a whole lot, but here's the #1 best piece of advice I can give you once you've wound up in the friends zone:

Drop the girl and move on.

Drop her, as in cut her off almost completely. Be gracious about it, and don't tell her you're dropping her, just… disappear. You may find she becomes so intrigued that she begins chasing after you, or you may find that she falls off your radar altogether. Either way, it's good for you.

That girl I mentioned earlier in this post, who called me trying to get something from me and didn't really want to meet up with me? Chances are, I won't ever talk to this girl again, because it's not a worthwhile use of my time. She clearly is trying to use me to benefit her life without doing anything to benefit mine. e.g., if she wants to get together with me and have a good chat and then we go back to my place and get intimate, well, that's something that benefits her and it benefits me. If, on the other hand, she wants to be just friends and use me to help her friends and maybe talk to me or have me as a shoulder to cry on, that benefits her, but all it does for me is suck up time I could be using to build my businesses or meet new women or spend time with friends who benefit my life as much as I benefit theirs.

Think about it like this: with a girl you're just friends with, that you don't really want to be just friends with, you've typically invested a great deal of time and effort and energy. And the more you invest in someone, the more committed to them you become. You can very quickly end up in the unenviable situation of being far more committed to a woman (for having invested far more in her) than she is in you (for having invested far less in you). When you're more committed to a woman than she is to you, seduction is doomed. Positively doomed. Not all the time, but about 98% of the time, it's doom. Doom for the chances of that seduction.

So, dropping a girl you've been obsessing over does a few things for you:

  • It ends the cycle of you investing in and becoming ever more committed to a girl who doesn't feel the same way toward you (otherwise, she'd be in your bed by now), and
  • It frees up your time and mental energy to begin focusing on new women with whom you are not in the friends zone.

Rather than trying to climb out of a deep, deep hole with one woman, it's far better to just go find another woman who's standing topside. It can be a little tough once you're invested fairly heavily in a woman, but it's very worth it.

Ultimately, it ties into one of the very core tenets of being a man: a man does not keep people around him who make him feel like less than a man.

What that means, of course, is that if a woman starts viewing you as "like her girlfriend," it's time you forgot her and moved on. For your own sake, it's the healthiest thing you can do. There are a lot more women out there you can find to treat you like the man you are!

Never be afraid to walk away from a bad situation. You always have options – that's what real men realize. And those men – those men unafraid to walk away from bad situations – rest assured, they never end up in the friend zone, because they just won't let women put them in it.

Cheers,
Chase Amante

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Comments

Lau'Ren'Tay's picture

Cookies and Cream


This is really good man; this won't be one of my worse
nightmares. Thank you

Lau'Ren'Tay Walker

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Cookies and Cream

Author

Absolutely, Lau'Ren'Tay. A big part of changing oneself is facing difficulty and overcoming it. The people who shy away from facing their fears and tough situations stay stuck in the same place they started out at.

I don't think I've met a single awesome person who claimed to have been born awesome and to have led an utterly awesome life. There's always somewhere along the line in his life where every person who's an awesome person today was at the point he was about to give up entirely and go live an average, mediocre life, not doing what he really wanted to do, and spend the next fifty or sixty years like that, but instead he persevered, kept fighting for what he wanted anyway, even though it seemed impossible, and eventually he succeeded. Triumph in the face of overwhelming adversity is a keystone to achieving real victory, and it's where "character" ultimately comes from.

Chase

Ali's picture

Wow! The 2nd paragraph was


Wow! The 2nd paragraph was absolutely the best inspirational Quote I could find on the Internet!

Thanks a lot Chase !

Anonymous's picture

Just friends


Hey great article man probably one of the best I've read on the Internet concerning this topic it really opened my eyes and was a total breath of fresh air. I'm ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I've fallen victim to 'just friends' and i tick all the boxes on how i failed to act etc. I realise however that I'm only 19 and I've barely ever been with anyone so I guess I've stil a lot to learn. I totally understand about cutting all ties, that was my initial reaction but due to circumstances with college and and where we live, to disappear and have no communication requires nearly more effort and stress than to remain friends. Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

Cheers, Andriù

Anonymous's picture

Your advice is right on the money!


Your advice is sound.

A major problem guys have is being TOO SLOW in letting a woman know the reason you are showing attention to them is because you are INTERESTED in them (not because you have a shortage of friends and somehow want to expand your female friend base - which is logical to her but completely bizarre to you) .

When you are not clear you get thrown into the "Friend Zone" and it is hard to get out. You spent all this time working on her and thinking she is the greatest thing that ever happened to you and things are going great - only to get socked in the face by her "just friends" response.

If she does this to you..face the horrible fact "you LOST". You tried..you really like her deeply..but she won't cross that line. You are heartbroken. She claims you are the closest friend she has in the whole world and doesn't want you to leave.

DON"T FALL FOR THAT TRAP.

Yeah, it is true you ARE the closest friend she CURRENTLY has in the world. But the day she meets some guy that catches her fancy...believe me she will throw you out of her life in a SECOND - and she won't lose a wink of sleep about it. Not a wink!! Not a bit of sleep.

If you find yourself in the "friend zone" like Ducky from "Pretty in Pink" follow the author's advice and "drop the girl and move on". If she feels "lost" without you..DON'T budge.

It is better (and more importantly more fair) to have both people feel pain of a bad ending. It is tough. If you don't do the mutual pain thing and stick with her - YOU will get 100% of the pain when she tosses you out of her life FOREVER for some new guy. She will walk away without a scratch and you will walk away dazed and confused.

WALK away..better yet RUN away.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Your advice is right on the money!

Author

Yep. Great points here, Anon.

A major problem guys have is being TOO SLOW in letting a woman know the reason you are showing attention to them is because you are INTERESTED in them (not because you have a shortage of friends and somehow want to expand your female friend base - which is logical to her but completely bizarre to you) .

This ends up being an eye-opening perspective for most men. Guys don't realize that women truly, honestly believe they really want to be just friends. They think their interest is obvious... it's got to be! It never even occurs to them she isn't aware that's the case.

But the day she meets some guy that catches her fancy...believe me she will throw you out of her life in a SECOND - and she won't lose a wink of sleep about it.

A hard truth, yeah. A girl can be "best friends" with a guy for years, but if he isn't taking her to bed and a new guy comes along who is, she'll disappear in a heartbeat once she's found a guy she likes who also beds her; she'll devote all her time to him. Being a woman's close friend without sleeping with her ends up being, unfortunately, tenuous at best, with most girls.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase great article. I


Hey Chase great article. I added a girl from work on facebook about a month ago and havent done anything. the thing is though she was actually away in France for a month, have I already moved too slow?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Hey Chase great article. I

Author

Howdy Anon,

Generally speaking, waiting a month to follow up with a girl is going to get you a lot of missed windows, yeah. Her being in France is somewhat of an extenuating circumstance; I suppose it depends on how much you got to know her before she left.

You'll want to check this post, as it's directly relevant to your situation:

The Secret to Hooking Up with Friends

The most important part is about how much you get to know a girl prior to pushing to make something happen. So, if you've met a gal but haven't gotten to know her, haven't contacted her much, and haven't invested much time or effort into her, you've still got a shot because she hasn't had to "place" you somewhere in her life yet.

In other words, you're still an unknown.

What you want to do is go on a blitzkrieg as soon as she's back from France (or a week after... maybe give her some time to settle in), and just reconnect, text a bit, then get her out on a date or two and make it happen. Before she can place you as "platonic cowoker," give her a reason to place you as something more.

The clock really starts ticking from the moment you become important enough to her that she needs to figure out where you fit in in her life.

Best,
Chase

Anonymous's picture

Great article but...


It's almost as if you're saying don't be friends with a girl that you could be intimate with but end up not being anyway. I'm the type of guy where I'm not necessarily trying to sleep with every girl that I meet. However, at the same time, I feel it's still good to come across as mysterious and edgy as you say. Me and my friends talk about being put in the friend zone and it's not somewhere you want to be if you want to get a girl. Where I'm at, I'm not necessarily trying to get a lot of girls and sleep with them but still be the guy that's not in the friend zone

I guess my main thing is connecting with people first and obviously my main target is girls. I definitely understand what you're saying in this article but from reading some of your stuff, it does get a bit convoluted. When you talk about being a good conversationalist and having the girl talk way more than you I get that. In that sense, you're more open in terms of the way the situation goes. What I mean is, it's fine if you and the girl have a really good conversation (where she talks a lot) and you could go on to be really good friends or a relationship or nothing at all. Where my confusion comes from is mixing that with this type of situation here. You dont want to be in the friend zone generally but you still want to have a good conversations with that person. Where do you draw the line? I'm not like you Chase. Even though I enjoy being intimate with girls, I'm not trying to sleep with the majority of the ones I come across. Especially now that I'm in college. That's how you get a bad rep.

So dont you think it's possible to really good/close friends with a girl and not necessarily be in the friend zone?

Can't you be the type of guy that doesn't have to sleep with every girl he meets but can come across as mysterious, sexy and warm?

P.S. Depending on how you apply yourself, the turtle seems to win the race.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Great article but...

Author

Hey Anon,

Sure, yeah, we're just at different places in our lives.

Right now, I'm working 80 to 100 hours a week, I have tons of dinners and social events and what have you on my plate, I have a number of well-connected acquaintances and contacts, I have some very, very good, very high caliber close friends, and I have amazing women in my life. I travel frequently and I'm running multiple start up businesses. I'm at full capacity and literally cannot accomodate more demands on my time by anyone other than stellar-level people with incredible value to offer me. So, I meet a cute girl, and us moving really fast and going to bed, that's a good thing and it provides something of value to my life and it's a worthwhile pursuit. I meet a cute girl and she wants to just be friends and hang out and not become lovers, or introduce me to important people, or invite me to awesome events, or not help me build business empires, though, and, well, she's a nice person, but I unfortunately don't have the bandwidth for her and that's just how it is. There are hundreds of other people who want my time and I can't give it to them all.

I think for some guys, having female friends is a worthwhile pursuit. There was a time when I had female friends I'd hang out with and shoot the shit with. As time's gone by, I've sought out higher and higher performing friends, and the women have generally fallen away.

Regarding friends, I think a man's in 1 of 3 places with a girl at all times:

  • Guy she really, really wants to sleep with
  • Guy she'd be open to having a relationship with if things went right
  • Guy she'd never want to sleep with but values as a friend

With my female friends, I'm the first guy. I don't think I have a single female friend who isn't interested in sleeping with me, or hasn't already slept with me or come close.

Occasionally I meet women who aren't interested in me, and I'm not interested in them or I give it a shot and it doesn't go anywhere, and we just... don't connect. Sometimes they seek me out as a friend, but I'm not really doing any friend / social stuff so there's no common ground there. Again, I'm rather abnormal in that way; I think most guys want to go and hang out and have lots of free time and can use new female friends in their lives. In fact, for newer guys, I might recommend getting some female friends to get more comfortable around women if women still seem like strange, other "creatures"!

Anyway, not knocking it, and you can certainly can come across as mysterious, sexy, and warm and still keep a girl as a friend. If you see her too much and she gets to know you too well and nothing ever happens, you do eventually shift to one of the lower too categories, which is a bummer because she comes to respect you less. But no, you aren't required to sleep with girls who're your friends if you don't want to ;)

Chase

Eddie's picture

This is the anonymous guy


This is the anonymous guy that made the initial post. Based on your last statment in your reply, I'll just do what me and my friends always talk about doing. That is keeping things moving. I think if I do that then girls will only know so much about me and I'll still be making them feel special and I'll still be mysterious to them.

For me, I can pick and choose the ones that I will mostly likely open myself up to over time, but in general, I'll just keep things moving. Thanks Chase. Glad a resolution could be reached.

Anonymous's picture

Follow-up


As a follow-up comment to my previous one, I want to be known as a guy that makes girls feel special. However, I don't feel I have to sleep with them in order to be regarded as such but why should that mean that I'm more likely to be in the friend zone. I still feel I can be all those things you say a guy needs to be in order to appear more attractive to girls and things of that nature. I hope to get to the point to where I can still make a girl feel special but she still cant fit me into some part of her life. Do you think this is possible? Or am I going to also need to sleep with the girl to really close things out? Just asking because I'm not really trying to compromise my ideals.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Follow-up

Author

Hi Anon,

Okay, question then -- if you don't want to sleep with a girl, what's wrong with being in the friend zone? That's just where guys girls consider platonic / asexual end up, which, if a guy isn't going to sleep with a girl, is what he is to that girl.

You can definitely make a girl feel special as her platonic friend -- many guys do. Most of my girlfriends have platonic guy friends they turn to for emotional support, or who take them to go shopping or to dinner or to movies, and I think that's fine -- those guys like doing those things with my girl, and it saves me from having to do it. There are different roles for all different kinds of people in the world, and there's nothing wrong with being the platonic guy if that's what you want, brother. This site's just geared towards helping the men who want to take women as their lovers to do so, which is why this article and all the others come out against this tack -- to shake the guys who want women as lovers out of apathy and start fixing the mistakes they're making. If you're intentionally being just friends with a girl because that's your choice, there's nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,
Chase

Eddie's picture

Once again I am on the anon


Once again I am on the anon that you were responding to in my initial message. I would like to say thanks once again. I think when I was reading the article, I was getting a bit confused in how it was all coming together. So at the end of the day, it really comes down to what type of relationship I'm seeking with the girls on my radar and we'll see where it goes. Right now, I only really have one girl on my radar and most of the others that I know I just want to make them feel special but also show that I'm an attractive guy with being mysterious and sexy and all those things.

So I'll pick and choose the ones that I really want to open up to and be platonic with. I think where I'm at is a stage of 1) being more comfortable around the ladies 2) learning to read their reactions/signals 3) learning how my body language and things I do verbally and non-verbally trigger certain reactions from them which will give me a better idea of how to actually get a girl and let them know that I 'get' them.

With all this being said, I know it will be a long process so I feel it will extend beyond college and when I'm actually trying to find a lover (someone I could potentially marry).

And I do understand the purpose of this website. Just wanted to air my feelings really.

Anonymous's picture

Isn't suppressing your


Isn't suppressing your emotions disrespecting yourself?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Isn't suppressing your emotions disrespecting yourself?

Author

It is, yes. I'm a firm believer that the moment you see a girl you like, rather than suppress that emotion and try to be her "friend," you go get her. And rather than try and take some long, drawn-out courtship process, you simply make it clear that yes, you are indeed a man and you do find her attractive and you do want her, and then you take her to bed and the two of you fully express yourselves together.

Express yourself -- you'll be glad you did, and so will she!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

My friend zone situation


Chase, friend referred me here. In a way similar to you with two growing businesses and very little free time to invest. Had a girl on my radar for a long time, who recently became single and I pounced on it. This girl is not the usual few dates and bring her to bed chicks i always get. She is different conservative only been with select few and really seems to over analyze everything. She is deep in her conversations, and always wants to push the envelope of deep deep long convo's. Which I don't mind, because I enjoy the challenge of a chick this grade. Here is my problem. Week 1-3 went great, good dinners, good drinks and make out sessions(which is a big step for a girl this caliber, goals and morals). About mid week three we were in my bed and I tried to make the move from messing around to sex. Right then she stopped me and explained she just got out a 3.5 year relationship and wants to be friends and dont want to lead me on. I laid off that night, but the next week tried to push again and she got upset. Now at week 6 she still texts me first, asks me to go to places exclusively, but i am afraid to push for a kiss again. I use your "how to text a girl" to build rapture and meets. I don't know what position to play now. Obviously I want to bed this chick, and possibly spoil her this summer, which I know she will enjoy. Problem is this recent long relationship that she was stuck in and her rules of sleeping with guys she doesn't date or know well. she says, she wants to be single and enjoy her summer, but still hits me up to hang.

I can't force a reserved girl to put out if she has rules. Do I stay stuck in this possible friend zone?

Pointers to push the envelope?

Friendzone specialist!'s picture

Hey this is really good


Hey this is really good advice Chase, I'm going to go with it even though its going to be hard. I started sleeping with a girl who I'd been on lunch with a few times at work a year ago and managed to progress to sleeping with her pretty soon after she split with her boyfriend. Then she went travelling for 7 months and I was emailing her all the time, sorting stuff out for her back home and even posting stuff out to her. Then she emailed me telling me she'd changed how she felt about me and 'just wanted to be friends'. When she came back though I slept with her again but then got into doing laods of stuff for her like taking her away, paying for everything for her and helping her get a job, now shes told me again that she doesnt want to sleep with me anyone but that 'I'm one of her best friends'. I've carried on like this for the last few weeks and even went on holiday with her as best mates but its really frustrating me now and I don't know how to turn it around. I've clearly done far too much for her and I can't take that back, do you think I should just stop calling her and returning her email ect or do I need to speak to her? I really don't can't stay in the friendzone I'd rather walk away as its depressing me now.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Former lover who just wants to be friends

Author

Hey FS,

Sounds as though you took the role of the rebound guy who helped her rebuild her self-esteem after she lost her boyfriend. Girls usually go for nicer guys in that role, so doing the nice guy thing can work temporarily there, but once they've recovered they start longing for bad boys again and it doesn't last. The once exception is if she's hit 30 to 35 and she's less in-demand than she once was and starts feeling like it's time to settle down... she may stick with the nice guy who takes care of her at that point.

Best thing you can do is largely drop her at this point. Continuing to do lots for her communicates that she can expect you to treat her like a girlfriend without her having to do anything, and a girl'd have to be crazy to turn that down from a guy. Women are programmed to get guys around them doting on them and providing for them; they'll say they don't want that in the West, but they do it anyway, and girls from South America and Asia will admit it outright and giggle about it.

You don't really want to be that guy... it's a bad place to be. Work on stepping up your game, get some experience with other women, and turn yourself into a sexier, less doting guy, and you may even find she comes back into your circle at some point.

Cheers,
Chase

Freindzone Specialist's picture

Hey thanks for the advice


Hey thanks for the advice Chase. Since we got back from holiday she told me she wanted a break as things were getting 'too intense again' so I didnt contact her and she was back contacting me again a couple of days later to meet her for lunch, though she did also ask me to bring a copy of the holiday photos for her which means I'd still be providing for her. I told her I need some space from her for a bit first to think things over and I will contact her Next (this) week to meet up. After reading your 'How to get a girl back' article and having previously been the most reliable person around when it came to her, I plan on being the opposite by not contacting her and waiting for her to call me to see whats happened.

The problem I have is when I do meet up with her I'm unsure how to play it. I dont know whether to just tell her the truth about how I feel and that I cant see her anymore if Im going to stay in the Friendzone. I cant carry on avoiding her without giving her a reason or she will definitely lose all interest won't she? Shes very strong willed and when people have really upset her she has cut them out so I dont want to push her into that situation. I am hoping that eventually she'll realise what shes missing and come back to me so I want to leave the door open for her and not end up saying something that makes it hard for that to ever happen. In the meantime I'm taking your advice and seeing other girls and even slept with a girl a couple of days ago, but it all feels like I'm settling for 2nd best and what I really want is a turnaround with the other girl. I realise this is unlikely but any advice you can offer to prevent me from making it impossible would be much appreciated.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Turning around the friend zone?

Author

Hey FS,

Props on continuing to get out there and find success with other girls despite the circumstances with this one.

What I've done traditionally with women who were trying hard to friend zone me was I started insisting that the come hang out with me at my place. They'd either say "no," and try and get me out somewhere neutral, which I knew was a waste of time so that was very clear and cut and dry (yeah, not interested in that), or else they'd say, "Okay," and come over, and then we'd make out and either get together or not get together. I had a few girls who'd come over, we'd make out, they'd say, "No, I don't want blah blah our friendship!" and I'd say, "Yeah, sure, I understand," and then try and get their pants off. They'd leave, then try later to get me out on neutral ground. I'd say, "Ah, I can't, I'm really busy; why don't you come over and hang out and we can watch a movie," and they'd say they didn't want to just watch movies with me, and I'd say I understood and it was totally cool, and then that'd be the end of that conversation.

You can't force a girl to like you or not. But you can force her to either accept you as her lover if she wants you in her life, or stop pursuing you as a friend if she can't accept you as her lover.

Hope this helps.

Chase

Jack's picture

Hey this is amazing site,


Hey this is amazing site, props to Chase.

I'd like to add in addition to Chase's remark and in response to FS's response...

FS I have found that you have to think about the situation almost very coldly. Expect it not to work out. Imagine that you wake up tomorrow and she doesn't give a damn about you. Then realize that although your own emotions for her a genuine, the state and reality of her disliking you is a very real possibility, and you have to treat her as if she is just another mechanical being on this planet who is stupid to the laws of attraction. Stop idolizing her and realizes that she is replaceable, like Chase has said on his site. Only when you realize that do you realize that everything else is bonus...her liking you is a bonus.

Of course you deserve to be treated well and be given love in a relationship, but this kind of behavior has not been proven on her end. She is being SKETCHY. And she is not worth the thought and energy and idolization you have put into her if she is being sketchy, because it means you're being played.

Certainty is an important concept when chasing women. Wake up and realize that you have to be certain about the fact that you want this woman in your life as a girlfriend, or not at all. And like Chase so nicely explains in his article, her response to that ultimatum is your answer as to whether she's worth it or not.

Because ultimately when it comes down to it, psychology is just a game, and if you invest too much energy on your end holding out for a low return...you may find that you will have ended up given much more of your valuable time and your life (and these things are actually detrimental to a healthy lifestyle and having a healthy relationships in ways that don't justify having her around!) for shit all.

And you know what? We all can appreciate cheap love and presents in life...but ultimately our lives are a result of the amount of energy we put into them, and knowing where to put the energy to improve oneself first (as Chase obviously knows) will bring about the "best minimal usage of energy to highest return" ratio. Which is exactly what Chase means when he says "get her to do most of the work."

At the risk of sounding sexist, it's a reality of our time that women have come to take advantage of the energy men put into pursuing them, and as a result they have options and are in the habit of expecting too much from men. Chase has clearly exploited a type of reverse psychology where, when the opposite is done towards women, they come to think (which is almost stupid when you think about it but makes sense) "well if I can pick from most guys who put all the work into trying to get me and THIS GUY is not putting any energy into getting me, then HE must have lots of choices, so HE must have a lot of VALUE.

For us normal mortals (unlike Chase), it may be the case that we don't have - or don't feel we have - as much value as we think would should to get with a girl. The reality is that either you are feigning that you have value, or you simply believe that you have value when you don't necessarily have it, or you actually have value and you believe you do. Either of these states will be desirable to a woman if done properly over and over again. And like anything, the more you do something, the more you come to realize that you do have value in the task, even if it's only faking it at first, or maybe if later faking it turns to an understanding of how to make it work in conjunction with a realization of all the ways you actually do have value for women in the real world.

Just think back to the women you have been with that have liked you - what did they like about you? Chances are it was you simply being yourself and not trying to fake your way into their lives. This is what Chase means by being fast...you need to act fast while your intentions and your personality are genuine, because dealing with the aftermath will be easy.

Great site btw.

wesk's picture

Isn't much of this about framing correctly?


I'll use a personal example. A few months back before I knew anything about attraction having an expiration date and the importance of having sex with the woman fast, I used to constantly make a woman wanting me hard from the start. I unwittingly would get women hot and horny on a our first outing together: too much touching, kissing, and sex talk, but I'd never "finish the job" that same night.

I carelessly presumed that leaving on (what I thought was) a 'good note' (i.e., by leaving while she was horny and wet and not having sex that same night) would naturally make them want to meet up with me again in the future (and build sexual anticipation for me in my absence), much more than if I was to do it on the same night. Despite how wet and horny women would tell me I made them after I left - I ignorantly believed it was better to leave with them wanting more.

Even after taking women to bed, the next time around, or even the third time around, I could make her orgasm in all ways, using my hand, oral-sex, but I'd always try to find a smooth way of getting out of actually "penetrating". It's not my size that I'm insecure about, it's staying hard once I start, and the fear of uncontrollably going soft, and the whole awkwardness of trying "play it off" and the stinging humility of a woman judging me as "inadequate". So, if there was a tad of doubt I had about staying hard, I avoided penetration completely, and made it seem like I was too drunk or too tired, or whatever, rather than make an attempt.

So, from reading these articles, it's clear why I never made it more than three, possibly four dates, of seeing any one woman intimately, before they started getting cold on me or telling me we should just be friends. (from reading these articles, I'm pretty sure it was the lack of penetrating)

---
(side-note)
Chase, a week ago I read your article on how to overcome performance anxiety and now I feel much more ready simply because everything you said NOT to do, was exactly what I was doing. I wasn't allowing myself to be in the moment. Those thoughts of past experience which have scarred me I can now just let go of and drop more easily. Even if they return, which they do, as long as I'm "watching" them (aware of them as they happen in the present) and acknowledging them (instead of resisting them) as inefficient mental patterns that ultimately have no reality other than its emotional response felt in the body (which I've been unconsciously keeping alive through resisting it), suddenly, even though I may still FEEL the fear, because I'm aware that it's nothing more than a cause-and-effect, thought-to-emotion reaction, I am no longer controlled by it...
---

Now that I know what I need to do from now on, there is a woman I work with whom I have 'taken to bed', three times and have had sexual fun (making her orgasm, hand, oral, but no penetration as I stated)...naturally, she probably felt undeserved, she got cold, said she wanted to be friends...

Going back to my subject on framing correctly and what this has to do with it: If a girl-friend zones a man, this "friendship" is only going to work if the man conforms with a "friendly" framing in compatibility with the girl, right?

In other words, if a girl "friend-zoned" the man, but the man continues to exude sexuality, be sexy, don't show emotion, and, regardless of what the girl says, never conforms with compatibility to her friend-zone frame, the friend-zone thing obviously doesn't happen. She must either leave you completely or possibly even feel attraction for you again. Either way is good, right?

Is this how you'd recommend dealing with a co-worker - if there is no benefit to becoming her 'friend' ?

Thank you.

Girl in need of advice!'s picture

Not wanting to enter the friend zone!


Hi Chase,

I've been reading a lot of your articles and they have been very informative.

However, I'm in a bit of a bind. I've been 'dating' (and I use the term loosely as we've only been meeting up once a week or fortnight for the last 6 weeks or so) a guy whom I'm attracted to but he seems to be taking a rather long time to show me what he wants.

On the third date he initiated contact, and we ended up kissing and he ended up spending the night on my sofabed (as I wasn't ready to sleep with him). The next day, to my surprise, he stayed all day even though he had things to do. Nothing happened that day...not even a kiss.

On the fourth date he pulled me into a long cuddle in the cinema (when I jumped at the film) and I really thought he was going to kiss me, but alas he didn't. I even invited him back to mine to spend more time with me...But he declined (although I think he was pretty downcast as he had to be somewhere else later that evening).

Later that week he tried to initiate a night together, however I was very poorly and tired, and I was preparing for a very important exam. So I turned him down. Since then he has sometimes been quite aloof, although still seems to want to spend time with me.

I am due to see him in a couple of days, but I don't want to end up in his friend zone, and I certainly don't want to put him in mine. I have considered doing this, just because I'm not sure of his interest level anymore. I suggested going swimming and he said he's up for that, but I'm not sure if he really is. I thought of this to help me feel more comfortable in front of him while being in just a bikini...and I thought it might nudge him forward a bit too!

I'm quite shy at times and I get quite nervous about having sex with a guy for the first time (it's been a long time), so I don't feel comfortable initiating it. But I'm not sure how long it will take for him to try again (when I'm not feeling gross or flu-like!).

I need to kiss him a lot more before the bedroom anyway, and I have told him this, but I'm not sure if that's what he wants now. How is a girl to know without asking him out right? I don't want to be demanding! And I don't want him to think it's just a one-night-stand either as I'm not into that, which I've told him.

In the past I have been extremely patient with guys that took too long, but after a few months of waiting my patience was pushed to the limit, so I walked away. I don't want this to happen with this new guy but I don't want to waste my time either...I'm sick of time wasters!

I'm not sure if he still wants to sleep with me, or if me turning him down (while feeling ill) has put him off completely. How do I prevent the 'just friends' scenario? Please help!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Guy moving too slowly

Author

Hey miss-

Two things to be aware of going in:

  • This guy digs you, but he's shy and uncertain
  • He's gotten what seem to him mixed signals from you, so he's not sure if he can get you

Nothing you did wrong here on your part; actually, everything looks super solid for getting this guy in a relationship. The more mentally and temporally invested you can get a guy before he's able to take you as a lover -- without you causing him to give up altogether, that is -- the more highly he's going to value you as relationship material.

That in mind, you're going to need to make him very comfortable, but you don't want to do it in an overt way that'll hurt your relationship value.

So, my recommendations:

  • Find an opportunity to cuddle up to him and be affectionate and have a lot of body contact without being overtly sexual. Maybe get on his lap and place your head on his shoulder / against his face and smile and shut your eyes. Ideally, place your face very close to his, in kissing distance, but don't kiss. Open your eyes and gaze at him and smile warmly. This'll give him the safety and green light he needs to proceed.
  • Intersperse a few "safe" comments when you're cuddling with him. "I feel safe with you," you can tell him. "You're a strong man," is another great one, particularly if you're running your hand over his chest when you say it.

Between the two of those, he should feel both safe and increasingly excited. You're almost guaranteed to get results that way.

Good luck!

Best,
Chase

Girl in need of advice!'s picture

Friendzone here I come!


Hey Chase,

Thanks for your advice, I'll definately have to try that with the next guy. However the guy I was starting to date did a little disappearing act shortly after I posted that, and now he's reappeared saying he wants to still see me but only as friends.

Naturally I'm gutted, but I'm ok with it for the moment. I liked spending time with him and he said the same. I still a bit confused by the whole matter, but I just think that I will always be confused with guys!

However I will keep in mind what you said, ready for the next guy!

Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Guy who moved on

Author

Hey Girl,

Try not to take it personal. Looks like he went into auto-rejection when he felt he couldn't get you. That's basically a self-esteem protection mechanism that both men and women have.

Hey may just come around and make another play for you in a while after he's rebuilt his self-esteem a bit. Of course, by then it sounds like you'll likely to have moved on.

And so it is with men and women...!

Chase

mcguyver's picture

BF


I'm curious, how does the girl having a BF change this? How do girls with boyfriends categorize new guys they meet? It can be tough to figure out whether you've been friendzoned or you're viewed as 'dateable, but i've got a bf at the moment'-material.

I'm sure you get my jist. I've gotta go so I can't expand but I'll visit back asap to read what you've got to say :)

Chase Amante's picture

Re: How girls categorize guys when in a relationship

Author

Howdy McGuyver,

Well, as unfair as it may sound, women tend to categorize men pretty much exactly the same when they're in a relationship. If you're a nice / moral / upstanding man and you respect her relationship, you don't actually get points for that -- you in fact end up in the same category that any guy who moved slowly with her would.

So, two options here then:

Kind of a choose-your-own-adventure at this point -- but you do have some solid options, for sure.

Chase

Friendzone Specialist's picture

Unsure how to play it


Hey Chase

I’ve been finding the information on this site really useful in terms of getting with new girls and building on my skills and experience so I can’t thank-you enough for that. My main aim though is to use this information to get the girl I’ve posted about before back. I’m at a crucial point now so I thought I would check with you to see what I should do as the information you supply is usually the opposite of what I was thinking of doing!

I’ll quickly brief you on the situation now, we had this break after the holiday and I agreed to meet up with her to talk, but before that date I bumped into her in a bar on where she was on the dancefloor with her friends. I went over and immediately got her to come and get a drink and sit with me, which she did for over an hour despite her friends constantly coming to try and persuade her to dance. I got a bit sick of the interruptions so asked her to leave the bar and come with me to another bar which she did and we spent the next 5 hours chatting. She tried to talk about how she felt and I said no save that until we meet on Friday. On the Friday we spoke for hours again and I played it cool and said to her that this whole thing was becoming too much trouble and wasn’t fun anymore. She said I’m one of her best friends and she never wants to lose me. I was cool again and said we’ll just have to see how things go but then destroyed this casual image by presenting her with a really professional photobook of our holiday that I had spent hours making for her! She was so happy she had tears in her eyes looking through it and said it was the best thing anyone had ever made her.

I did manage to stick to my word and didn’t contact her over the next few days, but then she wanted to have another talk again which turned out to be her telling me she felt very uncomfortable about the photo album and saying she was really worried that I wanted a relationship and she would end up hurting me. I managed to play it down and told her not to read so much into it and that I’ve actually made myself an album too so its no big deal. She believed me and is now back to texting me everyday and today when I was discussing moving to Spain she was saying she’s thinking she wants to come with me.

So my problem is that I know she really likes me and I have no problem getting investment but it’s just hard to see how to turn that into attraction. I’m not sure now whether I should be being elusive (the opposite to how I was before) or take this as a fresh chance to get her out and move fast and try and escalate things physically? I took way too long to escalate before and only really had the confidence to do it when we’d been drinking, but I don’t know whether it’s too soon and would just scare her away? What do you think? Thanks in advance for your advice and for reading the whole of this essay!

Harry's picture

where exactly am i?


Great article mate, wish i read it a few months earlier!

Ive been getting really close to this girl for around 6 months and it took me a while to realise that i actually like her but by then i realised that i may be too late and ive entered the "friend zone"

So i tried to detacth myself around a month ago from her hoping shed realise what i meant to her. So she kept constantly texting me looking for attention and trying to make me feel sorry for her with her problems but i wasnt really responding as openly i normally would. However, this kept continuing so i decided to give the attention back and push with flirty and more forward messages. But she either doesnt repond to them or gives me a really cold one liner. So again i have decided to stop texting her but she just comes back again looking for attention. I have never really come across this type of girl before- very needy and attention seeking but whn i give the attention its almost as if she doesnt want it anymore. You think she knows what she is doing and is just trying to keep me there as someone she can talk to when she needs? whats the best plan forward?

Migz's picture

You were Friendzoned for


You were Friendzoned for sure. Proceed to ignore the girl and get a new lover. Once you do and she realizes you're too busy for her drama because you're shagging a girl who's cuter than her. She'll suddenly start flirting with you, but by then you won't be interested in her anymore.

Jack's picture

Hey dude, Again I'm not Chase


Hey dude,

Again I'm not Chase but I seem to be addicted to this thread despite my stomach telling me it's time to eat.

I recently broke off with a girl that was acting the same way, except things went south and she stopped texting completely after I got kinda a little too needy/smitten. Now mind you I think she lost interest before I started getting needy and I'm not sure why - I guess that part of the dating game is beyond me - but I can tell you almost 100% surely that you had better stop texting her if you are, and essentially give up, because you are pretty much in the friend zone already.

If you have a chance at all, it will be - in my opinion - by asking her out on a legit date flat out and acting assertive and playful and pushy almost with her NOT CLINGY OR NEEDY OR WANTING HER, and judging on the date (secretly) what she thinks of you, while at the same time remaining distant and NOT letting your emotions get the best of you. You should know in the first half hour whether there is any potential and if you feel there is - then lay it on strong and flirt in a playful but careless way (never letting her think that she can have you). Depending on how the flirting goes you might end up kissing her or she might get turned off for whatever reason, there's no surefire way of knowing. But either way on that date you would leave what happened alone and force her to contact you if she's interested. By the way if she doesn't want to go on that date ... GIVE UP and move on to the next one, she's not worth it.

Simon's picture

Friends after not speaking for months?


Hey Chase.

I ran into some thing that was new to me, and I stumbled upon your excellent article.

I was dating this French women for 4-5 dates when she decided she "just wanted to be friends".... After that conversation I just dropped it there. I am in my 40s so I have had my share of relationships and I am just not interested in expending the energy on a women that isn't interested in me. That was months ago.

I've been on a few dates with other women already and carrying on with my life and my business....when I got an email from said French women with some cute cartoons and stuff about hoping I was doing well and "I also wanted to reiterate my hope to be friends".

Perhaps she is lonely and wants a friend? We connected in a lot of ways around Music and Movies, but I'm not interested in being "just" friends, but what do you make of it? Should I wait a week and politely tell her "I'm not interested in being friends".

Thanks.

egysky's picture

need an advice


so what about a girl who was happy with a guy for 3 days and they did very nice things during these 3 days and full of romantic moments and then the girl asked him to be only a friends because the relation went so quick for her and she doesn’t feel ready to have a serious relation, although the guy went away and was sad as for him he couldn’t accept being just a friend with the one he feel something with and can’t stop himself touching her or kissing her when he see her as he used to do during these 3 days and actually she is the one who used to come to him and holding his hand and kiss him before, now the guy he went away and he left the whole group of us and don’t want to see this girl any more, the girl is still asking about him every day and trying to make him understand that he can be a friend as she needs every thing to be slowly but he doesn’t accept it as he says that what has started with feelings and love can’t be ended this way , may be it would be easier if it was only a friendship first and then it turned to be sex but the fact that they were attracted to each other from the first day and they had 3 nights and days all together happily and exchanging great feelings is making it hard for him to accept as well she just stands behind the idea of being only friends and meeting every day??? me as a friend with others we couldn’t find out who is wrong and who is right, and as well we couldn’t help them out to get back again or find a mid point…any one can advice us now with what they think ?? and specially any one can tell us why the girl she did this?? and is it still in love really with him or she has just changed her mind? and if the boy is wrong when he said that he can’t see her if he has to be only a friend after what they have had together, also the fact that she was always telling him how happy she is and how he see her not happy now when he is around??

Yeahyeah's picture

Overseas Chick Dramas!!! What to do??


Hello GUys,
I just stumbled across this site and thought it is pretty cool. ANyway a little bit about myself. I am a 30 year old Aussie who loves picking up women. I am a natural bodybuilder who competes nationally, and I am a decent looking guy who gets a bit of attention from the ladies. Anyway usually I don't give a fuck and pick up various women, sleep with them a few times and then move on (i get bored easily with the same chick). Anyway things were going brilliantly for me. I recently went to Thailand over the Xmas period. THat place was crazy, a different girl everynight. ANyway on the last night (just before New years) I met the most beautiful girl I have ever seen. She was a 19 yr old Denmark girl. I was at a club and she was there with her father. Anyway I got talking to the father and the girl. She kept hugging me and flirting with me. Anyway at first I was unsure what to do because her dad was their. After about ten mins of the flirting I thought fuck it, so I started pashing her (in front of the dad). He was really cool and didn't care. So after that we were together all night. Anyway at about 3am the dad told her they had to go home because she was getting to drunk. I was devastated because it was my last night in THailand and she lives on the opposite side of the world. I then got all of her details. I gave her a quick call the next day (before i flew home) to make sure she was all good. She was fine and very happy to hear from me. Anyway I then caught my flight home and arrived home. Since I have been home we have been texting each other a fair bit. She was basically telling me I am the most special guy she has ever met and she loved my body and everything else. I was also letting her know that she is the hottest girl I have ever seen, blah blah blah. ANyway things were going along well with the messages and she was telling me that she wants to save her money and come see me in two to three months.

ANyway the last two weeks the text messages have really slowed down. I have been sending a fair few and been getting a reply here and their. THe text messages she sends are still as passionate basically telling me she thinks of me everyday and wants to save money to come be with me. The thing is the last message I recieved was about a 9 days ago, I have sent her about 6 messages since her last message (basically telling her I want to show her around Aus, how hot she is etc). I have had no reply to any of the messages (I even tried calling her during those days and was getting no answer except once, when basically she said hello and then the phone cut out, I didn't even get to say anything). So now I have thought fuck it and haven't contacted her for about 6 days (to see what happens).

If this chick wasn't so hot, sexy and cool I would just fuck her off and find someone else. You got to realise I have been with so many women and there is something about this chick that stands out from any other girl (even though it was just after one night of meeting her).THis chick is different unbelievable and its fucking with my head. I was thinking of waiting a few more days and then just sending her a text, saying "Hey _____ its been a while since i have heard from you. I hope you are doing really well and everything is going great, blah blah blah".

So Chase can you step up to the plate and tell me what you would do. THis is the most weirdest situation because if she was from my country it would be a lot easier and also I do not know how Scandinavian women think (as you don't meet to many of them in Aus)

So boys I would love to hear from you!!!

Jack's picture

Hey dude, I'm not chase but I


Hey dude, I'm not chase but I can offer my opinion.

I think you're being really dumb about the whole thing. You contacted her 6 times, and she blew you off, and WHAT? She actually HUNG UP on you?

I mean come on, I guess you're not used to rejection like I am - which is a good thing for you - because that is a sure sign that it's over. Forget about her. And based on this article Chase would say the same thing.

But but but...she's SPECIAL and no other girl made you FEEL LIKE THAT and she's SUPER HOT and .......... wow just sit back and listen to yourself. Come on man, that's not you and you know it.

I'm going to take a brief aside and explain my own situation with girls just to give you some perspective to how stupid you are being (by the way, I call you stupid in a compassionate way, lol, because we can all be stupid about girls now and then - obviously you usually aren't which is a good thing but it's bad because you don't know how to deal with it).

My situation is that I was a 30 year old VIRGIN until recently, when I lost it in a very cool way, I might add. I'm very proud of my first time and wasn't shitty like most peoples' first times, we were both into each other and it was DAMN WELL WORTH THE WAIT. But the circumstances were fucked, she had another guy in the picture, and she ended going back to him.

I was gaga over the girl by the time she left, but I recovered within a week. Why? Because I'm DAMN WELL USED TO REJECTION. I have been rejected by so many women now, I know how to react, and like Chase says - once you reach that friendzone or that "drop" zone, you instinctively will know (even if the girl says otherwise), and you should immediately give up. Some guys will at this point get aggressive and push the girl away first, which might result in one of those nasty rebound in-and-out-of-a-relationship situations that aren't fun for anyone (besides scattered sex here and there).

But anyway moving on... My whole life I've been more academically adept than intellectually or emotionally, and I've always been horrible with women. You might be wondering at this point why you'd even want to take advice from me, and here's why: because I know rejection and I know that you have fallen into a pit you can't recover from whether you like it or not.

It's a psychological game man. You obviously have the physical prowess I don't to keep women interested in you. But this girl seems to be a few notches up on the psychological game above you in this case, because she lost interest and she dropped you based on texting - in other words she grew bored of the fact that she couldn't be with you sexually and emotionally etc. A relationship at a distance like that was bad idea, because you've obviously grown to the point that you've invested so much emotionally and psychologically into her that you can't step back easily, and that's your big problem here - NOT whether or not she likes you still.

She obviously doesn't, or she would text you. It's that black and white. Time to move on. And I know it's tough, but try spending your whole life waiting for a decent girl to fuck and then having her leave you for her man...sounds worse doesn't it? It's shitty but I recovered after a weak, and I have to say I'm proud of that because normally it takes me forever to recover from women, but I think I can honestly say I've stepped up my game a notch (which obviously would sound ridiculous at the age of 30 for guys like Chase, but remember, not all guys excel in the world of chasing women and plenty of guys excel in other areas (like myself) and come to better understand chasing women later in the game.

I'm pretty direct about what I believe, but of course it's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and you might find parts are not true to you - and they very well may not be true for you. But dude, if you can chase women all your life and toss them away like flies (and believe me I WISH I could do that, but it's not in my DNA physically), then step back take a fucking look at yourself and realize that it's all a fucking game. People are not better than other people, women are not worth idolizing in excess, and in the end be happy with the life you have, because you just might be blessed with something that someone else wishes they had.

And of course, realize that you can make a decent catch for long-term appreciation, but it's probably not this girl.

And if you really want closure, you could try calling her again or texting her, but chances are she won't respond...and obviously she isn't worth it if she treats you like that anyway. Good people don't treat other people like that. Good people would at least say "I'm sorry, I just can't do this anymore." I wasn't given closure and although it was kind of painful to realize that the girl didn't like me and what's worse WASN'T BEING UPFRONT AND HONEST ABOUT IT BUT INSTEAD DENYING IT... even despite that I realized that the girl was a little fucked up in the head and I'd prefer not to spend the rest of my days with a girl that fucked up.

And that's what it means to be a man - to truly not give a fuck at the end of the day and be willing to walk alone into the future, because ultimately, we are all alone, and the ones who truly know this are the once that can walk the walk alone and paradoxically - they are never alone - because they respect others who walk the same walk and they can truly appreciate everyone in this world, even the ones who are too fucked up to realize their cycles of dependence and despair.

Wow that got deeper than I expected.

It sounds like you need to step up your psychological game. Being a guy that blows through women, you might have to do more work on realizing how to keep woman around a bit longer. Getting involved with this chick and infatuating about her while texting from another country is ridiculous, because 1) you can't fuck her while you're doing it, 2) you can't build a genuine relationship on texting alone and 3) you can't fuck her while you're doing it.

These are like cardinal rules, and they even work with Chase's rules. You can't build a relationship on texting alone and you can't do it in another country because it breaks Chase's rule of MOVING FAST and keeping things genuine.

And I'm no expert like Chase but I think I have this one pegged. I hope you find this useful, even though it might not be what you want to hear. Dude honestly, you fuck women I'd be more than happy to spend the rest of my life with - women who probably have psychological issues or emotional issues or even physical issues - but I'd take them simply because it's so rare to actually get a woman to see beyond my appearance and love me for the more artsy/intellectual strengths I have that actually in honesty rarely become vocalized (I'm more hands-on into the arts than vocally - a better writer than speaker like Chase obviously is). Just be happy you can get women and move on to the next one, and begin the process of erase that other girl from your mind, because ultimately it's a waste of your time. And if it helps, imagine me and my inability to even catch a hotty besides a couple of times in my life, and be damn well happy you're not in that predicament! Be grateful for what you've got and stop being selfish for the things you don't have!

Cheers man, best of luck.

Ann Nonymous's picture

Hello Jack! First of all -


Hello Jack!
First of all - you seem like a smart guy and you KNOW that looks and money mean NOTHING!...but for some reason you are not giving enough value to yourself...nooo good!!!....I used to compare myself with the most beautiful women and was getting ``low`` ...then all changed when I started seeing all those who have even less than I have and felt so ashamed of my complaints.
There are people who have no arms...and how about all those who don`t have legs ...but you can walk...you can write and you can sing badly in the shower ...and many cannot! And yet they do manage to carry out their dreams and if they are artists ,like you,and love to paint but have no arms -THEY WILL STILL DO IT WITH THEIR LEGS!!!How amazing!? )))) ok you might think you are ``less fortunate ``for not having look of CLARK gable ;)...but I`m sure you are still MORE fortunate than many others who have EVEN less than you do -so don`t ``be bitter`` ,smile to yourself ,say :DAY IS beautiful,I AM BEAUTIFUL ...!!!!-done!

We should be happy with what we have and the way we look as it is not the LOOK that makes a woman falling in love with you -and not the money either!and not the size of ....you know what hahaha!...
And why for god`s sake you are all so behind ``hotties``??? Guys ,you all should look what`s there inside of her not only through her ...let`s say:vagina but through her heart -how about that?
I am a very average looking and feel sorry to be ``discriminated `` ....as ``hotties`` always have more value to any guy...try to look beyond the LOOK because you might simply OVERLOOK your own happiness).
They say it is energy or pheromones that makes the two of you ``cliiiick))).....no !!!honestly -I have to run to bed now-even birds managed to wake up already !!!)...and it will be another ``zombie day `` for me )))
Night Night!
YOU LOOK GRrrrEAT JACK -don`t be grrrrumpy !!!
Take care and keep smiling :0)
Ann Nonymous

Anonymous's picture

What about a girl who has sex


What about a girl who has sex with you on the day you meet, and also several times after that. Then, she disappears for a month or so, and finally calls giving you the 'just be friends' speech.

Jack's picture

Chase is going to hate me for


Chase is going to hate me for troll'n his site.

That sounds rough dude. I bet there is a way to play her and make her want you back. Tell her you wanna be friends, but then fake that you're with another girl and you don't have time for her or you're preoccupied with this other girl. And maybe pretend to slowly lose interest in hanging out with her. The key to attraction is not being overly attracted to her and sending off a vibe that you could easily be out of her life. At least that's what I think, I'd be interested to hear what Chase would say.

Jason's picture

Help!


Hey Chase,

It's Jason, the personal trainer again.Just wanted to say thanks for the advice you gave me earlier in another post - helped a lot with pulling a girl for a "workout" session. Now it seems I'm having a new problem - Chase, after 7+ years of playing the field I'm looking to hang up the cleats and settle down. Here's the kicker though - I'm finding in the process of doing so I'm getting friend zoned! In other words, I still have great success with pulling women and getting them into bed with ease, but when it comes to me stating my genuine intent with a woman I really like, they laugh it off thinking I'm not serious or even worse - a few days later state they think we're better off friends because they're just not "feeling it."

This is seriously making me confused, brother! I've tried multiple approaches - my usual approach, which I think you could classify as the "sexy/mysterious man," the bad boy/aloof approach, where I hold out letting a woman know I like her until she's waving big red flags she likes me, and gradually I start showing her I like her as well - but this flips and turns into a power struggle where she loses interest and again, the friend zone speech. Then I've tried the taking it slow approach, where I still push to convey strong interest both sexually and emotionally on the first date, but instead just push for a kiss and only mild physical touching (hand on the small of her back, pulling her in a certain way for a hug, kiss-kiss on the cheeks, and hand on her waist when approaching her), but again, this gets a woman telling me I didn't seem like I was really interested in her. My last most serious relationship was about 5 years ago, since then I've just been living the player's life, and now I want to come out of it, but have no clue how.

I'm writing you asking this because it's clear to me I have no problem bedding beautiful, sexy women (I literally had a realisation tonight after bedding a lovely lady I met while out with my wingman, not to mention the success I had this past weekend as well)), but come commitment time it seems I can't come across as being serious. Is there any sort of advice you can give for the situation I'm in? I need help brother, odd as it sounds I'm a bit worried I've been on the field too long.

Jack's picture

Hey man, I responded to your


Hey man,

I responded to your earlier post and it's interesting because I seem to have you pegged - you have trouble with the psychological part of keeping women around.

Again I'm not really qualified for helping you out with this issue based on experience, but from a theoretical perspective (and having experience with rejection I guess) I can offer some enlightenment or at least try. But read my earlier response for more details on my perspective of your situation, I'm going to keep this one short.

Basically, what age women are you going after? At your age I think you should be going after girls no younger than 25 and up and preferably close to your age. Because as Chase has said, these are the girls that are looking to settle down.

The second thing I have to say is perhaps not something you want to hear, but you should try going for a girl a little LESS attractive than the super sexy girls. But wait, you don't want to do that do you? Because you have a dream of having the super sexy girl forever and...bla bla bla. Again, I have you pegged. No offense dude, but the world is not fair and it's not perfect. You might have to date a girl who is down a few notches in terms of hotness and even, dare I say, almost AVERAGE.

Why? Because girls like this tend to 1) not be as crazy, 2) not be as fucked up in the head (yeah I know, same as the 1), and 3) recognize genuineness and are willing to hold on to that and not fuck around. You've been dating hotties all your life, well now you might have to realize that you're going to have to settle for someone who isn't super hot. Or you could keep trying to date hotties with the hope that someday you'll get the chance to prove me wrong. Well that's life dude...Not everyone gets the hottie in the end, and Christ knowing some of the fucked up girls out there, I'm GLAD I won't be stuck with a super hottie my whole life.

BUT IF YOU WANT to bag that hot girl, you're going to have to get used to the reality that you've got to be a man. And being a man means not wearing your heart on your sleeve, and not being overly emotional (besides like Chase says, talking about emotion from time to time). I have found too that girls - at least the ones I am attracted to - don't want to hear that you want to spend the rest of your life with them, DEFINITELY not at the beginning of the relationship! They want to continue with the mystery. Remember how you got so attracted to that girl that was in another country? How did that happen? It took time...wasn't as easy as a quick lay.

And that's the reality - if you want commitment with a girl you gotta stay committed and stay a man and not get all mushy and needy just because you WANT something. You got the craft of picking up a girl and getting THAT part of what you want easy, which is commendable because I will probably never perfect that. Do you ever act mushy and needy to get women into bed? I'm guessing you don't, or if you do it's more of a game than an actual neediness. Women are turned off by that, and if you start acting needy and wanting to tell them you want to keep them forever, they'll run to the hills.

It's the same law of attraction that got you laid all those years, you just have to keep doing it over and over with the same girl. You have to keep being hard. Keep being a man and waking up realizing that the possibility that you might NEVER hook a girl for the rest of your life (or the possibility that you might hook a fucking retarded girl with mental issues and be stuck with that) is there, and you'll have to live with that reality daily for the rest of your life. Only when you truly are willing to face that reality on a daily basis will you be able to look at your life and appreciate what you have - appreciate the girls you love even if they won't be with you forever. And when you honestly can do that and live in the moment on a daily basis, that's when eventually a girl will realize that you're worth keeping around because you fucking VALUE her and you value a future through your ACTIONS, not words.

And that's how you get a girl for the rest of your life. So basically you apply the same philosophy that you use to get women into bed, but you do it in a more stretched out fashion and you have to use more patience. There's lots of literature online about sustaining a relationship with a girl so you obviously need to work on this. But man as I said before, appreciate the fact that you can at least get girls now even if only temporarily.

fake name's picture

Hey, Huge long backstory


Hey,

Huge long backstory which i will try avoid to this, but essentially:
-met a girl 2 years ago, were really into each other - she went overseas and i had a gf at the time so things ended up with us not talking for a year
-contacted her the other week to try make amends for my actions, we end up hanging out all week more or less, getting more and more intimate
-one night we hookup, the next night I'm sleeping with her and she tells me she loves me

PROBLEM: she was moving away to another city - we only had one week. now that she's gone she is definitely trying to convince herself we are in the friends zone, but i really don't see that as working, purely because of the way our relationship as friends has always been.

heres the thing, i really enjoy her company regardless of physicality's, and i liked feeling like a close friend.

Jack's picture

Hey man, That is brutal, but


Hey man,

That is brutal, but I think you may very well be screwed.

Women are apparently fickle and they overuse the "love" word. Whatever you felt when you were together - best to forget about it now. You could potentially text her to see what is up, but don't bother texting her back unless there is obvious interest on her end and DON'T ask her about continuing anything.

Get used to the fact that she is out of your life now and might never be back (unless she seems interest in continuing to text you, but make that HER decision; essentially don't give a damn).

You can't have a relationship with someone who is in another country. The most you can hope for is that she'll someday come back, and if you play your cards right (ie. forget about her and improve yourself), someday, she may return and want you more than ever.

Bottom line though, you can't have a relationship with a girl in another country. That shit is for long term proven relationships or engagements, and even then it's testy.

Anonymous's picture

The advice and information


The advice and information you give is honestly among the best there is out there. Thanks for sharing

Anonymous NYC's picture

Girl


Hey Chase,

Great advice. I was wondering what to do if you just told a girl you have liked for a long time (4-5 months) that you liked her, but in response she thinks of you as her best friend, almost like a brother to her. Is there a way to change her mind, and make her realize that dating me is a possibility, and could work out well?

Thanks.
AnonNYC

Jack's picture

Hey dude, That is the epitome


Hey dude,

That is the epitome of being friend zoned, and there really isn't any escape from it. Maybe Chase would have some tricks in mind, but the best advice I can give you is go out meet another girl and make it known you're with her - and you might eventually draw the attention of the other girl, but I would not hold my breath.

Anon's picture

Got a number from a girl who


Got a number from a girl who then said it's nothing romantic.

Guess I'm immediately in the friend zone eh?

Anonymous's picture

Need advice on this girl


I've been reading this page and think you have sound logic on how to handle women. There is this girl I could use advice about. Your time is appreciated.

Long story short, I've been friends with this girl for a year and a half. When we first met and had been hanging out for a bit, I had told her I liked her and she basically friend zoned me. 5 months later, on my birthday, we have drunken sex and she pretends to hardly remember any of it; and wants to move on. Yet, over time, she has brought up specific parts of that night, and many of the memories are from when we had sex. We stopped talking about a month after my birthday for 7 months due to differences and where we were at in life. About 2 months ago, we became friends again after she hit me up on facebook to see how I was doing. I had totally gotten over her and my feelings came back. I'm not sure what to do based on our past and could really use some feedback whether it be from Chase or anyone else on this page. Thanks guys.

Anonymous's picture

I met this girl, about a


I met this girl, about a month and half ago at a party. I got her number and we started texting then speaking on the phone (mainly she'd asked to ring me), but she keeps giving me mixed messages, sometimes i think she's interested and other times not. I express my intentions to her, however she's moving to another country at somepoint and she said that she is not looking for a relationship because of this (I'm guessing because she doesn't want to get hurt), but we continue to speak and flirt with each other. I'm not stupid and i know this girl is professional at mind games (which should put me off but she does it in a very clever, nice way without hurting me). I know your advice will be to leave her alone but i can't lose this girl to someone else. Not to sound big headed but i've been through a few girls who i found attractive too (mainly i'm the one whose playing them but i know this time i'm the one getting played), but with her it's different, she was the first girl, i've truely fell in love with. I really fell for her and i've never felt like this before for someone. Is their anything i can do to win this girl's heart without having to moving on and break this stupid friends barrier?

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