Girl Has a Boyfriend? 3 Things to Do, and 7 Things NOT to


girl has a boyfriendI've been with my fair share of "attached" women before - that's girls with boyfriends and girls with husbands. As I've mentioned before, the way I see it, there's always some guy, SOMEWHERE who's going to be angry you're sleeping with a girl - whether he's her boyfriend, her ex-boyfriend, her husband, or just some guy who's already "called dibs" on her and you moved faster, it doesn't matter - somebody somewhere is upset that you're with "his" girl. So you can either spend time worrying if some man you don't know will have his feelings hurt if you sleep with a woman who wants you, or you can sleep with a woman who wants you and figure that if someone is upset about her for sleeping with someone else, well, that's between that person and her.

And if she was REALLY his, there's not a thing you could've done to get her... trust me.

By the same coin, it doesn't bother me a lick when men are trying to get a girl *I'm* seeing. If you're dating a beautiful girl, men will want her, and men will try to get her. More power to them for trying. And hey, if she DOES give you the slip for some other cat, you can take that as strong evidence that either you weren't doing things right with her, or she wasn't the kind of girl who believes much in loyalty and fidelity, or you're dealing with some combination thereof (usually it's some combination thereof).

Lately though, I've been seeing some pretty lame attempts by men trying to get my girlfriend. And it's made me (and my girlfriend) realize: most men have no idea what to do when a girl has a boyfriend and they like her.

In an effort to stem the tide of lame attempts men make to get girls with boyfriends, I've put together a list here of the top 3 things TO do, and the top 7 things NOT to do when you're trying to get a girl who's got a guy. After reading this list you will, I hope, be in a much better position to avoid making these mistakes - and avoid ending up in time-wasting or worse situations with attached women, too.

girl has a boyfriend

The most annoying situation you'll encounter when a girl has a boyfriend is the one where said girl's not going to do anything at all with you... except waste your time, and potentially other things, too (such as: effort, emotions, money) if you aren't careful. Look out for these girls, or you might get sucked into a black hole where you're chasing after a girl, and eventually even perhaps can't stop thinking about her and start falling for her, while she's busily shacking up with that silly boyfriend you thought you could outfox.

Many a daring man has been lost to falling for a girl with a boyfriend he can't convince her to leave.

To save you from such a fate, our list of what not to do starts off with this unique category of women and situations: the Time Wasters.


#1: She Wants You to Help Her Make Him Jealous

No doubt you've been out somewhere - a bar, a nightclub, a party - and met or seen the girl who's miffed at her boyfriend and is trying to make him jealous. "Ah, easy pickings!" your mind might suddenly declare, as a diabolical grin spreads across your face.

Not so fast.

If a girl has a boyfriend with her at a party or club and she's upset at him and trying to make him jealous, that tells you two things:

  1. She's close enough with him that she CAME with him, and
  2. He affects her emotionally enough that he can make her upset

There's usually a third point attached to this one, too:

  1. She has friends close-in-tow nearby

What's wrong with these things? Take it to the next logical conclusion:

  • She came with him, which means she's probably LEAVING with him. Right?
  • If he affects her emotionally a great deal, that means she has strong emotions for him
  • If she has strong emotions for him, those emotions are going to also include LOVE
  • If she's trying to make him jealous, she isn't focused on you... she's focused on HIM
  • Finally, if her friends are there, they're going to step in and intervene

For all these reasons, a girl who pops up looking for some guy to help make her boyfriend jealous is usually a bad bet and is going to lead to wasted time and effort.

There is, however, ONE glaring exception. Before anyone asks me to censor this because they don't like it, remember that when a girl is trying to make her boyfriend jealous, she isn't interacting with another guy as a person - she's trying to USE him as a tool to make her boyfriend mad. Is there harm in having a consensual encounter with a woman who was trying to use you? The only people who seem to have a gripe with this are those who believe that women are unable to control themselves, and therefore men must control women's emotions for them, for the good of society.

Needless to say, as someone who sees women as, well, thinking, independent PEOPLE, this argument doesn't hold much salt with me.

So here it is: if you move fast with a girl who has a boyfriend - like, really fast - you can (sometimes) clean up here.

One friend of mine met a girl who was upset at her boyfriend and she took him out to her car for a quick fling about 30 minutes after they met.

Another friend of mine met a girl upset with her boyfriend and took her in an alleyway outside the nightclub they met, before she went back inside to rejoin her friends and boyfriend.

If you don't have your sexual vibe down and you're not moving blazing fast at handling logistics though, girls mad at their boyfriends and trying to make them jealous will just waste your time. They're just trying to use you to make the boyfriend feel bad and chase after them.

Do NOT:

  • Spend a lot of time with a girl trying to make her man jealous
  • Hang out with the friends of a girl trying to make her man jealous
  • Meet the boyfriend of a girl trying to make her man jealous
  • Do anything other than move, move, move her to the point that you get together... or she decides she doesn't actually want to do something with you and goes back to her boyfriend

Don't be a tool to help her make her boyfriend chase her harder. Escalate things and see if you can move girls that are (seemingly) flirting with and interested in you, and if you can't - move on. There are plenty of other women you can meet who won't be nearly as much of a headache.


#2: The Girl You Wine and Dine

girl has a boyfriendI don't recommend doing this anyway (see the ever-popular-with-the-ladies "Should You Pay for a Date?"), but when a girl has a boyfriend this one ESPECIALLY goes out the window.

Why? Because imagine the value calculation going on in her head:

There you are, pursuing her, spending time on her, spending money on her.

Meantime, she continues seeing her boyfriend.

You take her out for a nice seafood dinner... then do call her again. The next day. After she went home after your dinner and had sex with her boyfriend.

This continues for some time. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Now... how's this affect your value to her? You're pursuing her over time, spending on her, entertaining her, and he's... sleeping with her.

I'll tell you how it affects it. Her attraction for you plummets deeper and deeper down into the bottomless well of no-attraction.

I've seen this happen back in the old days when I'd still spend time taking women on multiple dates and I did this with girls in relationships, and I still see this now with guys trying to get girls I'm dating. My current girlfriend will let male friends who want to be more than friends buy her dinner, but you can see the drop in attraction as time goes on - she might describe the guy as charming initially, but after a few of these outings she visibly has less and less respect for him.

Don't be that guy who's taking a girl who's already got a boyfriend on date after date. If you can't do it in one date, the chance that you do do it falls dramatically with all women - but especially with a woman who's already got a man who's providing for her what you are not.


#3: The Gal Who Needs a Pal

You know what I'm talking about: the guy who's just friends with a girl he likes in the hopes that she'll eventually realize he's better for her than her boyfriend is, or that she's eventually going to break up with her boyfriend and then the two of them can be together.

Why's this a bad idea? If you don't know, you need to check out that "Just Friends" article, as well as the one on the friend zone. But the long and short of it is, she's going to stop seeing you as a potential mate and come to value you primarily just for your friendship. She will date someone when she eventually breaks up with her boyfriend... but it won't be one of her close male friends.

And all the while, the guys who were plowing all their time into "being there" for her are going to receive nothing in return for their time - at least not what they'd hoped. The only real thing you'll get will be a front row seat to her relationship ups and downs, and you'll get to be there to dry her eyes in between boyfriends.

Not exactly "Consolation Prize of the Year," if you ask me. Don't waste time on being a girl's friend while you hope for her relationship to end.

Instead, just come back into her life when her relationship ends. Trust me, she'll have a lot more attraction for you still than the guys who were hanging around holding her hand through the break up... and instead of you being the one standing there going, "Hey! But I put so much time in!" it'll be other guys saying that, while you get the girl.


#4: The Girl Who's a Tease

You may be surprised to hear it, but there are, in fact, girls who are nothing but teases out there. My girlfriend right now is this way - she leads men on and leads men on, and they never get anywhere with her. She did it when she was single, and she does it now. She used to not be aware she was doing it, but now she is... and she keeps doing it anyway.

Many guys HATE hearing about these kinds of girls, because they've had their own run ins with a tease and it wasted a lot of their time. Understand this, though: a girl who's a tease is not (usually) being a tease out of malice, but out of a sense of fun.

I've seen a few girls who led men on because they liked messing with guys. That's pretty rare, though. Most of the girls who knowingly lead men on do it because they get a kick out of it, and they really believe that they're making the man feel good too - he gets to talk to a pretty girl, right?

And that's the rub: the girl figures the value the man gets out of the whole interaction is that he gets to talk to a pretty girl. When a girl is leading a man on, she assumes he's a guy who doesn't get to talk to pretty girls that much.

Why? Because experienced guys don't get led on. It's only the guys who don't know what they're doing that do.

What do experienced guys do differently? They don't waste time. They'll very quickly set up dates and get together with a girl, and very quickly sleep with a girl, or they'll disappear.

No:

  • Texting back and forth for hours
  • Confessing their feelings
  • Fretting because they haven't heard back from her in too long

Just plain and simple "make it happen or move on."

How can you tell if a girl's a tease? A few ways:

  1. Most important: she'll be in control of the conversation
  2. She'll get a guy telling a lot about himself or flirting
  3. She won't tell much about herself or let you get to know her
  4. She'll avoid meet ups as much as possible - they're harder to control

A girl who's a tease is getting her kicks while in a relationship without risking that relationship. After all, no harm a guy can do her over text, right? She'll sometimes meet up if pushed, but she'll get upset if the meet up goes out of control and the guy tries to advance things. Why's that upsetting? Because that's not the role he's supposed to play.

He's supposed to text her and let her get her kicks, and in return she'll provide some hope to him that he might actually have a chance with a hot girl like her.

The reality? He lost his chance the moment he started chasing her. Don't chase women - especially not women in relationships, and especially not women who'll tease.


girl has a boyfriend

Just because a girl who has a boyfriend decides to go for you doesn't automatically mean you should go for it. There are other considerations, too, not the least of which are the ones where there are going to be consequences to your actions that aren't going to be so good.


#5: She's Got a Crazy Boyfriend / Husband / Ex

I don't care if he's:

  • Her boyfriend,
  • Her husband, or
  • Her ex and she's totally single...

... if the guy's unstable and a mess and you know he's a problem, stay away from her. It's not worth putting yourself in a situation where a guy's going psycho because his little princess ran off and hooked up with some guy she met at a dive bar (you).

And if you think he'll never find out, you might be surprised. I received a phone call from the husband (whom I didn't know existed) of a girl I slept with sometime back. I thought she was single; turned out she was a newlywed. I've met boyfriends who gave me cold stares; they knew.

I don't know anyone personally who's had a violent run-in with a boyfriend, husband, or ex of a girl he's slept with, and I know some guys with pretty sordid pasts, but this sort of thing is something to be very wary of. If she's the kind of person who'll involve herself with a crazy violent person, too, that says something about her as well - even if she's trying her best to not let on that there might be anything wrong.

Steer clear if she's got an overly possessive man in her immediate past or present. There are thousands or millions of women in your town right now that aren't going to introduce those kinds of problems into your life, no matter how "wonderful" she might seem to be in the moment.


#6: When a Girl is Emotionally a Mess

A girl who's emotionally a mess can trigger another one of those deceptive "Ha HA! Easy pickings!" moments in many men's heads (same as an attractive man who's emotionally a mess can trigger those moments in women's), but I call that "deceptive" for a reason: girls who are emotionally a mess are not a walk in the park.

Whether you want to steal a girl like this away from her boyfriend and turn her into your girlfriend, or you're just looking for a one-time night of bliss, you're going to get a lot more than you bargained for when you date the Girl Who's a Mess™ with all her emotional baggage in tow.

What does "more" mean, exactly? Well, to put it bluntly: you're going to be listening to her problems - often, complaints about her boyfriend - and she's going to be constantly talking about what makes her unhappy. If you're good, you can tell her, "Shut up, and let's just try and have a great time and not think about our problems," but at some point - maybe before you take her to bed, maybe after - those problems are going to come back again.

She's stuck in a loop, and she'll keep returning to the things that are on her mind - and what's on her mind isn't her and you (unless you cause some problems for her that she can dwell on, that is); rather, they're her and her boyfriend, or her and how men don't treat women right, or don't treat her right, or how her parents didn't treat her right, or how someone is doing something not right to her.

Basically, she isn't in control of her life, she's going to blame everyone else for her problems, and you're either going to listen to it... or you're going to become one of those people who gets blamed for causing problems for her too.

Worth selling your soul just to partake of her charms? Unless she's exceptionally more beautiful than what you're accustomed to (and perhaps even then), the answer's a resounding "no."


#7: When a Girl Has a Boyfriend She Loves

This is the one where I'll advise you to rein in your powers of seduction to avoid wrecking a woman's life. Otherwise, your soul will turn black and cold and all hope for redemption will be lost.

Well, not necessarily, but you'll still mess her up. Just don't do this.

Why not? What happens when a girl loves her boyfriend and you manage to seduce her despite herself anyway and get her in bed? It was her decision anyway... right?

Here's the thing: most people are not REALLY in control of their lives. This is why most people fear seducers so much. Most people are floating aimlessly through life, chasing after emotions, looking for their next emotional fix, following some fleeting, vaporous sense of purpose they absorbed from church or school or society or the latest Sex and the City rerun. They don't really know who they are, they don't really know what they want, and they let other things around them influence them by impacting their emotions.

And as a seducer, what you're doing is you're impacting women's emotions.

Usually, this is a good thing: you pluck a girl out of the mediocrity that is ordinary life and give her an extraordinary experience. Maybe the two of you go on to be paramours; maybe it was just that one night that you spent together as lovers. Either way, you leave a positive, meaningful impact on a girl and she'll always look back warmly on having met you and gone away with you.

Not so for the girl you seduce who loves her boyfriend, though. That girl you're temporarily blinding to her emotions by creating other emotions in her... but then, once it's over, her love for him comes rushing back, and she's torn apart.

I haven't seen this myself - I stay far away from people who are in love, it isn't something I want to mess with - but some of my more cynical friends haven't, and I've heard some of the stories of girls coming to see them and crying over their boyfriends they love. It messes with women's heads.

For your own sake and for hers, don't date or sleep with a girl who has a boyfriend she loves. It isn't worth it.



girl has a boyfriend

Let's say a girl has a boyfriend and you realize she doesn't fall into Category One or Two - she isn't a time waster or worse. She's got a man, but she isn't happy with him - she wants you. At least, you think she does. What should you do?

In this last part of the post, I want to focus on those three things you should do if you want to get together with a girl who has a boyfriend... those things that will help you to be a success.


#8: Be Refreshingly Different

Everyone falls into routine with their relationships at some point. He does his thing, and she does hers... and she gets bored. Your role as the "guy on the side" or as the new guy who's going to take the place of the boyfriend, if you want that, is to be what he is not: exciting, fresh, and different.

What that means, of course, is that the guys who try to get a girl who has a boyfriend by talking about their boring jobs and dull hobbies are even less likely to get girls than the guys who do that with single women.

That doesn't mean to be an entertainer though, either. Funny doesn't get you girls... otherwise, Bozo the Clown would be up to his eyeballs in women, instead of dogs and kids and colorful fuzzy balls. A good sense of humor and wit is fine - but you need to open her eyes and show her vistas she doesn't see in her relationship.

You must be better than her boyfriend... while maintaining sprezzatura and respecting the Law of Least Effort.

girl has a boyfriend

How do you do this?

Be calm. Be cool. Move fast. And don't be a burden. Don't complain to her, don't whine, don't seem anything more than a dream... because that's what she wants and needs you to be.

She needs solace from the drudgery of an everyday relationship with an everyday guy. You must be exceptional.

Read "The Conversationalist" and "How to Build an Emotional Connection" for more on these.


#9: Be Persistent

Some guys meet a girl with a boyfriend who is not sure whether she wants them or not. Many guys will get discouraged here and throw in the towel, when in fact had they persisted somewhat they would've gotten the girl.

You needn't be persistent in an off-putting way - you can be quite charming as you persist. e.g.:

You: Come with me, let's steal away into the night.

Her: I can't... I have a boyfriend.

You: It's okay, he'll never know.

Her: But *I'll* know.

You: So will I. We can share it together as a secret.

Her: [laughs] No!

You: I don't think you'd be laughing if you weren't interested.

Her: I'm laughing because this is ridiculous.

You: You're laughing because you're too excited to contain your laughter. Now let's go.

Her: [laughs] I am not going anywhere!

You: We'll go for five minutes and then you can leave if you want to.

Her: Okay. But ONLY five minutes!

You: Cross my heart.

Her: [laughs] Okay, let's go.

This kind of persistence can be very winning with women - very attractive to them. And if you persist with a girl persistently (sounds funny, right? Persist persistently?), and she stays around for it, you can be assured that she's at least considering it... otherwise, she'd be uncomfortable and she'd be gone.


#10: DON'T Be a Boyfriend!

You've seen it on this site again and again - don't try to be her boyfriend! This goes for single girls as well as girls in relationships. But it's DOUBLY true for attached women.

Why? A couple of reasons.

  1. Women in relationships are more attracted to single men. A recent study found that single women rated men they were told were in relationships as more attractive than men they were told were single, while women in relationships rated men they were told were single as more attractive than men they were told were in relationships.

    Why? Women who are single are looking for boyfriends - so they care if a guy's a high enough caliber that other women want to date him. Meanwhile, women in relationships are looking for flings - and those are easier to get with guys who are single than guys who are attached.

  2. If you try to be her boyfriend, you're in COMPETITION with her boyfriend. One of the most atrocious things a man can do when trying to get a girl is compete with her boyfriend. "He's no good for you," a guy might tell his prospective lover about her boyfriend. Wrong answer! When a guy says this, he's communicating that he's competing for the boyfriend role. What happens then? Now she must evaluate him and compare him to current boyfriend - investment levels and all.

    That means that even if he's slightly better than her current beau, he's still shut out because she's already so invested in the guy. He's got to be LEAGUES better... and then, of course, he's got to prove he'll be exceptional boyfriend material through multiple dates and lots of waiting. Chances are, nothing comes of these efforts, and much time is wasted. Don't go this route.

She'll be more attracted to you if you're a single rogue, and she'll be more attracted to you if you AREN'T (seemingly) interested in replacing her boyfriend... just in, say, supplementing her diet of men. If you do want her as your girlfriend, trust that she'll be far more inclined to become it once the two of you are lovers - especially if you really are a better man for her than her boyfriend is (she'll have to be the judge of that, though).

By staying away from time wasters and worse, and focusing on doing things right with the girls you like who are in relationships, you can up your odds of landing the girls of your choice - even if they happen to be with some guy not quite as great as you right now ;)

Talk to you next time.

Yours,
Chase Amante

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Comments

annus horribilis's picture

Reading this was horrible and


Reading this was horrible and caused me to lose a lot of respect for you. One of the worst things that ever happened to me was having my ex cheat on me. It's fucked me up and my ability to be trusting and open. You seem to not spare a second of thought for the other man affected by this dishonorable behaviour and its consequences.
The possibility of being cheated on is now something I worry about daily with my current girlfriend - as much as I try to be the best boyfriend she could possibly have, it's always on the back of my mind that no matter how much she tells me she loves me - she can always turn around, rip my heart out, and throw my investment in her out the window at any time.
And here you are teaching men to steal women from other men in commited relationships. You are part of the reason why commitment and self-sacrifice mean nothing these days.
Shame on you.

Chase Amante's picture

Other guys' girls

Author

Hey Annus,

I've certainly been there. I went through a period with an ex-girlfriend where we broke up and got back together and unbeknownst to me she was already seeing another guy. Tough time to go through.

I actually met the guy. And you know what? I wasn't mad at him. Why should I be mad at this other guy when it was MY GIRLFRIEND who got together with HIM? He didn't do anything wrong; he was just a guy who had a girl who wanted to be with him, and he got together with her. Actually, turns out he's a pretty cool guy. You know who did something wrong there? *I* did something wrong: I failed to keep her wanting to only be with me... or I failed to select the right girl to date.

I see a lot of guys who refuse to accept responsibility for their own relationships. They don't understand why women cheat, so they want the world to do them a favor and have everyone else on Earth just respect that they're in a relationship and stay away from their girl. But along the way, they forgot to brand the girl's forehead with a "Property Owned" stamp... and the girl forgot that she was owned property, too, and instead acted like women sometimes do and followed her heart.

Before you blame me, or that guy, or even your ex-girlfriend for your ex-girlfriend straying from you, Annus, stop for a second and take a good long look in the mirror.

Until you own YOUR mistakes, you will never be secure in a relationship again.

If you choose the right woman, and you REALLY do a good job making her love you, this post is no threat to you at all.

The fact that it IS tells me you're more interested in telling people to stay away from your girlfriend than you are in finding ways to make her want to stay only with you.

Chase

annus horribilis's picture

You, yourself, in your


You, yourself, in your article acknowledge that sometimes women who love their boyfriends will get together with other guys.
I've been with girls with boyfriends and married women before I got cheated on. Then I realized what a fucked up thing stealing someone else's girl is. there so many single women out there - why bother with drama and potentially cause a lot of pain - for both the girl and the guy?
I don't stamp anyone with 'property owned', but I acknowledge people sometimes make bad decisions. And one night where someone "follows their heart" could lead to psychological devastation of both the girl and the guy for years... if they can recover. and if there are kids involved, to the break up of families.
Can you sleep well at night, knowing you gave someone the tools to make this a reality? Do you never consider the ethical implications of what you teach?
By empowering men to make it easier for women to do that you are part of the problem, not the solution.
I don't feel the world and other men owe me the favour of not hitting on my girlfriend, and believe me I try everything within my reach to make sure she doesn't feel tempted to stray. as well as do what I can to keep myself interested in her. this goes both ways.
But I also recognize we are all only human and a single mistake can destroy years of history.
Good luck in your future endeavours, from an ex-customer.

Chase Amante's picture

The Victim's Drumbeat

Author

Annus,

Here's the problem with your argument: it is that men should stay away from your girlfriend, no matter how unhappy you make her, and NOT make her happy, because, well, because... you said so. She's in a committed relationship, after all.

And you see nothing wrong with that. Nothing whatsoever.

Men who come here who want to learn how they can make their girlfriends so happy and satisfied that they'll never WANT another man - I want those people here. This place is for them.

Men who come here who want to control their women and throw them in a walled keep and put palace guards and fortifications in place to keep the woman trapped in misery and keep away those men who can actually make their women glad - those men are NOT welcome here. I, personally, hate blamers and complainers. Hate 'em. They're the scum of the Earth, as far as I'm concerned.

Because there's this:

If you truly cared about your girlfriend, you would not be telling me to censor myself - you would be asking me how to give your girlfriend such an amazing relationship that she'd never even LOOK at another man AGAIN!!!

And in fact, my follow up post to this one is on exactly that.

But you're not asking me about that. You're not interested in that topic. You're not saying, "Okay Chase - well, I know how to get a girl who's in a relationship now - now, how do I keep my woman so thrilled with me that this is never a scenario I have to spend even one second worrying about in my own relationships?"

Because you don't care about your girlfriend - you care about what your girlfriend can do for you, and you care about keeping other men away from her - no matter how happy (or not) she is with YOU.

You're more interested in defending those men who fail their women than in those women failed by their men.

I'm not. Because the world doesn't work that way. You fail at school, you get held back a grade. You can whine and say it's not fair, but them's the shakes, and if you want to do well at school you learn how to pass tests. You fail at work, you get fired. You can whine and say it's not fair, but them's the shakes, and if you want to do well at work you learn how to do your job. You fail with your girlfriend, you get broken up with or cheated on. You can whine and say it's not fair, but them's the shakes, and if you want to do well with relationships you learn how to keep women happy and satisfied.

Don't make me the target of your selfish victimhood. Man up and teach yourself how to be a rockstar at relationships.

And before you get upset that I chewed you out, have a think about this. You're either going to come back in 2 years and thank me for making you realize you could do so much better at your relationships, or you're going to still be sitting there in 2 years crying about why other men won't leave your sacred relationships alone and how it isn't fair.

The world doesn't give half a squat about fair. It cares about if you can make the cut or not.

The people interested in that last one are the ones this website is for. Stop trying to control others and instead start learning how to control yourself and provide so much value to the people around that they won't want to leave.

Yours,
Chase

annus horribilis's picture

You're putting words in my


You're putting words in my mouth. I never said I wasn't interested in making my girlfriend happy enough with me that she wouldn't want to leave. In fact I said the precise opposite. I do try. That topic ( becoming a rockstar in relationships ) is precisely what I interested in. I was excited when I read recently on this very site, how there was going to be a focus on that very topic.
Hence my surprise and shock, that one of the the first posts on the subject of relationships, is in how to teach other men to steal other men's girlfriends.
I value your advice, I was just expecting more from you - ethically.
Anyway, I have seen you have posted on the subject again, I will read that carefully, and I thank you for getting me to think on what my priorities are from a fresh perspective.
Regards.

Chase Amante's picture

Ethics...

Author

The thing with ethics is most people try to use them to control other people's behavior for personal gain.

We already went over this example - proclaiming it isn't fair for men to pursue attached women, when you find yourself in a relationship that you're not certain you can hold onto (you don't hear a lot of attached women complaining that it's unethical for men to be interested in them, do you?).

You see similar "ethics" all over the place - e.g., fat women complaining that it's unethical to suggest that thin women are the ideal (you don't hear a lot of thin women complaining that it's unethical for men to like thin women, do you?); people complaining it's unethical that there aren't more of this racial minority or that racial minority in universities (usually blacks or Hispanics in the U.S.), but not having any problem when more qualified members of other races (usually Asians or whites in the U.S.) are turned away to make room for less qualified members from the first group; people complaining that wealthy people don't give enough back to the country in taxes, yet not wanting to give back more themselves via higher taxes on their own income; and the list goes on.

I see the term "ethics" get thrown around a lot to mean, "You should do what I want, and make things easier for me," usually by people who perceive themselves as "victims." It's equivalent to the "That's not faaaaair!!!" cries of schoolchildren who've lost some toy at the hands of a selfish bully... as if life should make other women fat because you are, to even the odds, instead of life demanding that you get thin if you want to compete. Similarly, you can complain it isn't fair that other men are capable of outcompeting you for your own woman and do... or you can decide to step it up, stop leaning on "ethics" as a crutch, and accept life's challenge to become competitive (by becoming what women really want, and by giving women satisfying relationships).

In life, you've really only got room for one focus at a time:

  • Stopping, slowing down, and controlling others, or
  • Elevating yourself and those around you.

You can't do both. Can't. I've never seen someone running around saying, "That's not fair! Stop it!" while at the same time heavily focused on becoming better, stronger, smarter, and more effective. Haven't seen it.

You've got to choose - the mind can only handle one position at a time. That doesn't mean you go around hurting people or being a cold, callous prick, but it does mean you don't label things as "This is black, while this is white" when reality is more complicated than that - her boyfriend might be heartbroken if she strays with you, but she might be heartbroken if you ignore her and leave her trapped in a loveless relationship or one she's come to resent. Which one are you right for helping, and which one are you wrong for harming?

Chase

P.S., saw you read the post on preventing cheating - glad you liked it, Annus. Hope it's what you needed to help make sure you don't have to worry about going through what you went through again.

annus horribilis's picture

one last comment


"her boyfriend might be heartbroken if she strays with you, but she might be heartbroken if you ignore her and leave her trapped in a loveless relationship or one she's come to resent. "

re: this, she has the choice to terminate the relationship prior to cheating. if she is "trapped" it´s her own fault for choosing to remain in a loveless relationship. last time I checked women are´t helpless beings "trapped " in relationships that are being forced upon them. at least not the ones I date.
likewise for me, if I come to recognize that I am not in love with someone, and my needs aren´t being met, I will try to repair it. if it´s beyond repair, I will terminate the relationship.
I won´t cause further pain by betraying my (monogamous ) commitment. or by enabling someone to break theirs.
but hey, that´s just my personal ethics - and I´ve come to it through trial and error ( a lot of error ).
I´m just saying posts like this imply that men taking the iniative to break someone else's commitment are justified. they are not.
Ethics aren´t about controlling someone else´s behaviour. it´s not about you defining what is right and wrong for someone else.
it´s about recognizing there is a right and wrong, positive and negative, good and evil.
this was my point all along, not about controlling someone else´s behaviour - which is always beyond our control. we can only try to influence the outcome, by choosing to engage in positive behaviours such as the one you described in your other post ( one which I believe has a much more positive message than this one. ).
anyway, I hope I explained my point clearly - this was always going to be a thorny subject and being one that is very dear to me personally I chose to engage, perhaps more than I should have.
Looking forward to your book on relationships.
Cheers.

Chase Amante's picture

On Moral Absolutism

Author

Hey Annus,

Good debate here - it's good to be challenged on your beliefs and be forced to further define them and flesh them out.

Point taken on control.

On moral absolutism (the stance that there is DEFINITELY a right and DEFINITELY a wrong), I'm a big opponent of "Good vs. Evil" thinking. e.g., for the U.S., George W. Bush was good, fighting back against cruel terrorism, and Osama Bin Laden was evil, murdering innocent women and children. For Pakistan, George W. Bush was evil, murdering innocent women and children, and Osama Bin Laden was good, fighting back against cruel terrorism. When people use good and evil, they tend to over look their own "evil" actions and dehumanize their opponents, painting them as "animals" or, at best, individuals who "don't get it." It's the basis of the psychological effect known as "othering" and leads to tribal thinking, herd mentality, and, at the extreme, massacres. Read about the flaying of Hypathia in Alexandria or the Christian Crusades or Islamic Jihad more recently for examples of the end result of good vs. evil thinking.

Anyway, your last comment highlights your belief in words over feelings, which is actually a very common difference between men and women. Men tend to hold that, "What you SAY is what matters," e.g., your word is your bond. Men often despise "weak willed" women who follow their emotions instead of their stated word. On the other hand, women tend to hold that, "What you FEEL is what matters," e.g., you should run from bad situations and toward good ones. Women often despise "controlling" men who demand that they hold fast to their word when the circumstances have changed and the man is no longer providing the strength or security those women originally provided that word to him under.

Remember, men normally occupy the dominant role over women in relationships. That makes it the man's responsibility to ensure that the woman's needs are met. Men who abdicate this responsibility lose their women, or enter into relationships where they surrender that role to the woman (e.g., she is in charge and she calls the shots). It's the same as having a child - if you create an unhappy home for a child, the child will both want to escape and fear the loss of parental protection and resources and, also, fear possible retribution. So, your child won't say, "I'm terminating our parent-child relationship henceforth." He's not in the power position; he doesn't get to say what happens - you do. So he'll avoid that because a confrontation with the dominant individual (you) will just lead to him losing and suffering further. Instead, he'll try to undermine your authority and question you and resist and rebel and try to push you to change, until he reaches the breaking point and just runs away... and you'll be left feeling heartbroken he could ever do such a thing without verbally informing you he would first. Women do exactly the same thing, and men often can't understand it. "I thought she was happy!" you'll often hear... same as a parent discussing a child who ran away from home.

The person in the weak position (normally women) in the relationship isn't thinking, "Let me make sure I take care of the strong person's emotions." They're thinking, "Jesus Christ, I handed the reins of my life over to this person, let him be responsible for my emotions, and now he's running slipshod over them." It's the strong individual's responsibility to take care of the weaker individual's emotions. This isn't a "you should do this to be nice" sort of optional thing; it's more a "do this or your relationships will break down" sort of mandatory thing.

Black and white good vs. evil thinking only works so long as you fail to see things from the other side's perspective. The moment you start seeing it through her eyes, the world becomes a very different place.

Who's right - the man who claims a woman is evil for cheating on him, or the woman who claims a man is evil for holding her in a relationship where she was unhappy?

Both of them are - and neither of them is. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

First time viewer


I would like to say, although I didn't read the whole thing (I'm sure I can trust your argument to sustain), I believe you have the perfect grasp on what survival of the fittest means.

Your intelligence on every article I've read has kept me completely consumed and in absolute conformity to your logical conclusions. I will be reading your articles and if I change who I am and turn into the more dominant male I wish to be (whilst still maintaining humility), I will gladly pay for your services. I would also recommend based off the few articles I've read, that your mind is fit for the psychological field. I thank you in advance because I am confident that your advice is the best advice I've ever received and intend to try it as soon as I man up.

Best regards.

lucifer's picture

When ethics and moral do come into play


Very interesting back and forth here :).

Your point is powerful, Chase, however you also mention that girls who are in love -or in long term happy and fulfilling relationships for that matter- can stray in the spur of the moment, so in that case, ethical considerations as the ones raised by annus *do* seem to come into play.

Even in that case, no right from your side to label other people as dicks as maybe they didn't know and even if they did she did her part as well, however I would find it hard to not at least shrug and say "that was a bit cheap of him".

Anonymous's picture

That is why Chase said in the


That is why Chase said in the article that if you meet a girl is in love with her boyfriend(and the signs are obvious!) that you should not pursue so he has got that covered, there are ethical considerations that come do come into play from Chase's side, Chase also says to not sleep with married women with children because they could be hurt, so trust me when I tell you that Chase has all of this covered.

Anyway, Chases words in this debate are very inspiring and I feel they are right, glad a guy like him is throwing his knowledge on the internet for others to catch.

luc's picture

Ehehe I trust you man


Ehehe I trust you man :).

Just chipping in, sometimes all these "it's the BF's faults" seem like excuses not to own up to what you did.

Is it cool sleeping with a girl who has a BF? I don't know.
Maybe no, sometimes it's not, but just own up and say "I did it anyway, someone will get hurt if they find out but I did it anyway".

Zuke's picture

I have a dumb question.


I have a dumb question. If a girl was going to cheat on her boyfriend with me, why would I want her to be my girlfriend again?

Anonymous's picture

Ace argument with this guy


Ive been in that dudes shoes. I had this fiancee who had cheated on me a few times. I wanted to murder the dude and thought she was just swept up in the guys BS. He was 38, married, a psych major and she was 23. I figured he was the cat she was the mouse. This was 7 years ago.

Boy what a difference 7 years makes. I now know that SHE was the cat. Right now im banging this girl who has a boyfriend. I started dating her before she got with him, she got serious with him after she moved out of town. Yet like clockwork every time she comes into town she ends up banging me at my house. I feel kinda bad for the guy, here im barebacking his girl while hes using rubbers and doesnt know shes on pills, but if shes gonna travel 6 hours straight to my house hes obviously not doing it for her. Id marry the girl even.

That last sentence is the rub. Sex is sex and love is love. I dont care that shes boned by him. She is gonna scratch the itch eventually being out of town. I can only do her 1-2 times a month and i cant do all the couple stuff.

Im also dating another girl who is married in a loveless relationship and another girl who is in an open relationship. If they want to use me as an escape, whatever.

It can be summed up like in this story. My roommate and his friends brought this 19 year old home. She had a boyfriend but none of them were and none of them knew. I asked around if she was single or who she was with and it was nobody.

Im 37. I just cold asked for her number and within a half hour i had kissed her. Sensing "easy prey" because of the brutal efficiency of my game with the age difference, he then wanted to go for her and asked me to back off politely, to which i obliged.

He went out with her and she revealed to him that she had a boyfriend, that they were just friends.

She ended up back here and was all over me, despite my room mate doing everything in his power to keep her and i seperated. She even woke me up from a drunken stupor and crawled into my bed and told him she was going to sleep with me, he convinced her to go back to him.

She came up and told me that once he fell asleep shed come up and bang me. Which she did. I was snoring so she grabbed my bathrobe and wrapped herself up and slept in his bed. Poor guy came upstairs to let me know she was sleeping in his room to see her clothes all over my floor.

The point of all of this is that what the poster you are verbally sparring with is suggesting is that men with game should back down when a girl is vibing them out of some "mens code". Problem is, its not the dude with game who is breaking the rules. Its the girl whos wandering panties is giving him the signals in the first place.

That 19 year old? She only banged the "boyfriend" twice and then he assumed exclusivity and it drove her insane. She did not want a "relationship" with anyone. The roommate played the wine and dine game on her and she friendzoned him while continuing on the payroll, and his attempts to keep her away from me only pushed her at me even harder to the point where the moment he fell asleep she came straight to my room and got buck naked instantly.

I used to think like that guy. But now i dont care. If the girl wants to bang somebody else and comes back, whatever. I dont own her like a peice of property. Its just sex. The logical extension of that kind of thinking leads to that masterbation is cheating because only one person is allowed to offer her any sexual or emotional pleasure.

LR's picture

Not Many Women, Unfortunately


Truth is there's way more single men out there than there are women and chances are, every girl you meet will either be in a relationship, engaged, or married. So there's plenty of competition with other men, even here in America and in foreign countries. Because we kill more female babies on average.

Anonymous's picture

I'm chasing a girl right now


I'm chasing a girl right now who's into me, and flirted with me behind her boyfriend's back, why she does this, I don't know, and when I say behind his back, I mean literally...

All I know is, he's not making her happy, she likes me, and I like her. So I'm going to pursue.

The other guy actually is pretty cool, but he obviously is doing something wrong, should I just ditch the chance to get to know this girl who really has my interest, just to spare his feelings? No. Sure I'll feel like a little bit of a dick, but hey, that's the game, don't hate the player...

Anonymous's picture

Dude... Your EX as well as


Dude...

Your EX as well as the other guy knew you were a schmuck who would respond just the way you did. YOU saw it...you knew it.....and you responded correctly......for them! The sad part is you think he is COOL...LOL! They both need their ass kicked. But the best thing you could have done is simply turn and walk away and find someone else. Its guys like you who make it easy pickings for the sharks.

I love this site! It is reality...women can NOT control their emotions. With the right tools and mindset anyone will be in bed with a woman tonight! I have tried the advice and it works. The girl doesnt even have to like you...lol!

THANX for this website!

Ex-Schumck
:)

Anonymous's picture

Thx


I found this article very good, and would like to thank you. I fell for a girl , but obviously I'm here because she has a boyfriend. but obviously his not the dream man to be with as she confesed to me that she also likes me , and the thing that holds her back is her boyfriend.... she is been knowing like about 8 months but started goind out like only 3 months ago. this makes me think she's not really that into him. she said she also feels a strong connection with me that she never had before with no guy, and I mean that should mean something... I put a lot of effort into making a "relation" with her, but I loved the idea of the sprezzatura rule". she asked me also to try going out with other girls if I like do so , though she said that that will make her jelous , I shouldn't keep waiting for her, because she dosen't me to suffer. but I feel she's not that happy with that guy...many people told me to let go and move on, but why should I let go, why? just because that guy came before me? huh, I feel she is special and might be the ONE... so I think to follow the advice of this post /article and see what happens. and I agree with what you're saying regarding the thing that very often is the man who dosen't follow his woman's interest and needs, and when lose her he blames everyone expect him self...
can you also give me some advice... thx

max's picture

madness chase vs annus


wow! the chase vs annus is awesome..i was starting to wonder if annus is actually chase giving himself a foe to explore the thoughts in his own mind and expand his own ever evolving theories further.. either way its awesome!! ...so brainiac(s).. consider THIS- Using your intelect / brain as a way of solving/finding happiness in your own self s still connected to the happiness of those around you..what is happiness? Good vs evil? I could write you a lifetime of words on this alone, but the argument is very simple indeed...Another perspective on this, is this... If you were to cut yourself accidently or not ,you are normally hurt and repelled from that which cut you? So what it would seem happens in cause and effect is ,emotional and physical!!!!!!!!!! To seperate the two is insanity ...compartmentalising behaviours that needn't be only to 'evolve' to another level of percieved existance and perceived reality... What im getting at is that we humans are very basic in so far as our needs and wants...as is all living things and those or that considered dead.. we require what sustains us to evolve and survive .. If i have empathy and i cut you ,i hurt myself..if i have no empathy and i cut you i hurt you alone? WRONG !.. Haaa haaa Wake up!! I will now Explain to you Chase and Annus what is really going on... The Universe and all that is in it is one and the same ,all that is in the universe is the universe ! You are me and I am you ! You are hurt , I am hurt... I am hurt, you are hurt.. I hurt you, I hurt me ..and so on.. Consider this when considering your actions and then applying this consideration in your action will bring you happiness... Remember YOU and I are actually YOU ... If you are feeling physically/mentally (same thing !) unwell or repulsed from your actions then i would suggest doing the opposite..

Anonymous's picture

I know a couple I want them


I know a couple I want them to breakup he is using her and I can't stand it she deserves better even if it destroys him

Anonymous's picture

white knight


it sounds like you are experiencing white knight syndrome, check out the article

~Madlibs's picture

Oh someone slept with ur


Oh someone slept with ur girl? it was probably me. but either way shut up, this was the best thing I've read all morning... its only 2.
also he said at the beginning if a girl really wants you shes not going with some other dude. which means if she slept with me then u obviously didn't catch her fancy.

Anonymous's picture

Stop being a puss, fuck that


Stop being a puss, fuck that shyt these hoes is supposed to get fucked, do yourself a favor ditch the bitch and take the mans advice.

Kristen's picture

Trust me, if the thought of


Trust me, if the thought of another man being attracted to your woman even enters her brain in a negative way, she isn't worth keeping. (I believe he mentioned that in the very beginning). You want to be in a long term relationship with a girl that is with out a doubt yours and maybe even continues to remind you of it. There are going to be men hitting on your woman whether she is attracted to them or not, it is up to her to show you what kind of person she is by acting/not acting on it. He is simply saying that there are ways to get the ones that aren't worth keeping. Does your girlfriend give you any reason to believe she would do these things? (Putting your past aside)

Starbuck's picture

...


Nope bro.

She's the reason. Perhaps with a little of you sprinkled in as well.

Blaming Chase for your troubles is sort of like blaming a fireman for telling you your house is on fire.

It's sort of like the old saying, if the right man comes along any woman will have sex outside of their primary relationship. I find this true in about 95% of cases. Some women wont for various reasons. But I have a secret to tell you. It's also true of men as well. And if you think it isn't true, you should travel more and type less.

My advice? If you want top notch women. You must expect them to be in demand. And your chances of keeping them corralled for the long term are at best about 50/50. The other option? Find you an intelligent 5 or 6 that makes a killing and she'll stick your side like glue. Then you too will have time to enjoy the finer things in life. On the side.

DAve's picture

Don't fret


Dude, this could honestly happen at any moment with any girl. It doesn't matter that the last girl cheated on you or not, that does not increase the odds of your current girlfriend cheating on you. Okay so what if she does? You get up, you clean off the dust from you, you keep walking and moving forward. There's plenty of other woman out there. I've learned that the hard way and now life is so much easier lol, she cheats, shes gone and look for the next one.

Don't deprive yourself from trusting another being, but then again, its not something that should give you a burden. If you don't trust then you are not ready for a relationship. You will be ready when 1) You have full capability to trust. 2) You don't care if they cheat or not.

Cheer up, life goes on :)

Derrick's picture

"This: The most annoying


"This: The most annoying situation you'll encounter when a girl has a boyfriend is the one where said girl's not going to do anything at all with you... except waste your time, and potentially other things, too (such as: effort, emotions, money) if you aren't careful. Look out for these girls, or you might get sucked into a black hole where you're chasing after a girl, and eventually even perhaps can't stop thinking about her and start falling for her, while she's busily shacking up with that silly boyfriend you thought you could outfox.
Many a daring man has been lost to falling for a girl with a boyfriend he can't convince her to leave."

Basically, this was me. I obsessed over the same girl for 2 years, only recently reaching the point where I will never contact her again.

I have no problem with getting with girls in a relationship. If a girl is dating a guy but still goes with me, that's cool. I don't follow the "Man laws", I follow a much simpler moral code: I don't mess with a girl in a relationship with someone who I know and feel is cool or that I respect.

That said, all these tactics and techniques are really counter-productive for inexperience guys like me, because this particular topic always gave me hope that somehow I could turn things my way. Even if you can do this, is it really worth the work? It's one thing if you approach a girl and once you start making out with her on the cab ride home she brings it up, and another to try and convert her over to you. I guess it can be done, but couldn't the energy and time required be better used on meeting another girl?

Chase Amante's picture

Girls with Boyfriends vs. Unattached?

Author

Hey Derrick,

You and I have a similar ethical code. Messing with friends' girlfriends is where I draw the line too. I've been around guys who don't follow this rule, and it's way sketchy. It's common for girls to be attracted to your friends, as you'll tend to have similarly attractive friends to you and you confer automatic value and trust upon them simply by being their friend. Guys that don't rein themselves in here run out of friends pretty fast. (Girls can run into similar ethical problems - actually, it usually seems worse for women than it is for men... many women have few qualms about taking a friend's man. High quality men are rarer than high quality women, and competition among women for these men is FIERCE. Good to be the king, I suppose... not so easy to be the queen)

Gauging whether to go for an attached or an unattached women can be a tough call. A few advantages of attached women:

  • They're more decisive about fast hook ups - they either want them or don't (single women are trying to decide between their short term and long term urges - do I want him as a fast mate, or as a long-term boyfriend candidate? Attached women don't have this same internal debate to go through)

  • They're typically less drama, unless you get into a position where she's assessing you as a replacement boyfriend

  • You'll have an easier time finding an open, high sex drive attached woman (if you want that), as most attached women not in this category don't go out as much and are far less likely to stray

I'll flirt with attached women and see how flirty they are, and I'll see if they'll move around with me a bit and invest. I usually won't ask much about the boyfriend. If the girl talks about the boyfriend a LOT, I leave it alone - first, because she's more likely to not be open to us getting together, and second, because if she talks about him that much he's clearly an important part of her life and I don't want to interfere. It's only if she marginalizes him or clearly doesn't have much consideration for him that I'll move forward with her, both for practical and for ethical reasons.

So I'd say this:

If you can find attached women who are clearly into you and won't be much work and they hardly mention the boyfriend and treat him as if he's not really an important person to them, go ahead and move forward with them and you may even find them easier to take as lovers or girlfriends than single women. If they talk about the boyfriend a lot or seem closed off, they're going to take up a lot of time and not give much back.

Chase

John B.'s picture

how to respond "I have a boyfriend" and "law of least of effort"


Thank you for the amazing post, Chase.

---First, I'm sorry for those odd comments here. If they don't like it, or being miserable, they can leave us alone. ---

This is quite long, but I hope people here could also learn from my lesson.

I have run into many situations that girls UNCONCIOUSLY bring up their boyfriend during the conversation, which I don't understand what goes on, or she likes me or not?

One of the most common scenarios I encounter is: we are talking about something that she likes to do, then she says: "oh, wow. My boyfriend and I do that all the time." or when I ask her why she works for CITI bank, then she says her boyfriend's mom brought her in...
HOWEVER, those are not major parts of the conversation, but the statement is so doubtful in my mind. People say if they really like you, they will not bring up their ex. or current relationship into the conversation. How do you interpret this, Chase?

Also, what if those girls are super nice but not that into you, are they teasers? I just happened to me yesterday, and I don't mind sharing this story: There's that girl l got out for exam review, and then grabbed her to a coffee shop. We had OK conversation despite I'm a beginner, though I would grade it 40% because I gave up quite a few of my values. She was pretty compliant to share a lot about her life, and told me that she would be free to come out again the next day (yesterday). I texted her that night to say "nice conversation with you", and she replied "ya, I agree". I took it as green light to schedule a date, then no reply (she is a very kind girl and replied all my messages before). I sort of knew she wasn't that interested, but I still gave it a shot to send another message to insist. She replied" Hi, John.I need to help my dad clean his shed, and then I have a "LUNCH DATE" at 2. I might have some time in late afternoon". I told her a time, but she never replied till now, not to mention showing up...

My thoughts: she is super nice girl who does not hurt anyone's feeling. Unlike most other girls who reject me right away, she kept replying my messages at the beginning, (but short, does it indicate something)? This is what almost dragged me into the blackhole, thank god, I pushed her to make a statement early then pulled out as quick as I could.

What should we do, Chase? Is that important to find out their status on the first interaction? I don't often ask a girl "are you single" like Ricardus, or should I? in order to wipe out the uncertainty and confusion immediately.

By the way, I was trying so hard to learn the "law of least effort" in my class last term, but it turned out people feeling that I'm like a dick. It's part of the progress, I understand. Yet, I wonder if I am so much of a "strong silent" type, how could people even get to notice me? Like, should I talk a lot, or should I just be a "lazy male lion" when doing group wok (that does sound like a dick, even to myself)?

I appreciate if you have some time to reply my post, Chase :-)

Anyways, you've done an excellent job here, Chase. I wish this blog can stay and inspire more and more people like me.

Thank you.

John

Chase Amante's picture

@ John

Author

Hey John,

With the "casual boyfriend reference," you'll tend to get this from girls hinting that they don't want you to get the wrong idea / they're not interested. You'll also sometimes get this from girls trying to test you. Usually this is if you came across a bit nervous or stayed a little too long, OR if you don't have a sexual vibe down yet and it isn't really clear to women what you want, so feels awkward. Normally when you get this, I'd recommend ending the conversation almost immediately after (politely, of course), and then heading elsewhere. Sometimes it's just over; sometimes the girl will try to get your attention again. That's how you separate out the ones who legitimately were trying to wave you off from the ones who were just trying to see how you'd respond (by calling their bluffs).

"Lunch date" - you've got to remember "lunch date" doesn't mean "formal date." She could have a lunch date with her girlfriend or boss. "I might have some time in the late afternoon" is a "I was interested, but now I'm losing interest," which you don't want - you want strong interest or none at all. Something like that you reply with a, "Hey, if you're tired or short on time, let's just do it a different time then." If she's interested she'll step up and insist, or try to reschedule right then, and her interest goes up; if she isn't, it'll die then and there and you can move on.

Being a dick - don't worry, that's part of the natural progression most guys go through. They start out being too nice, then become too much of a dick. Many guys park here and figure being a dick is the ultimate place to be socially, but you know that's not it. So you keep working on it, toning it back down - maybe you go a little too far and become too nice again, but now you can tell where you rate more and more easily. Eventually you get to the happy medium where you're confident and self-assured but not overly a dick, and no one calls you a dick anymore.

Sounds like you're working hard and making steady progress. Keep at it - more will follow.

Cheers man,
Chase

AR's picture

This post


Chase, I always wondered what exactly your view was about sleeping with women in committed relationships. I'm so glad I read this post because even though I don't agree with most of the things in it, I understand where you're coming from. Like Annus, I choose to steer clear of women in committed relationships because that's a choice they made and commitment is so important to me (in almost ALL aspects of life). However, I realize it's on ME to make sure she stays. If she chooses someone else, then I guess she just saved me the time of figuring out if a long term relationship will work with her.

It was a good post, and definitely something I'll be thinking about. And I'm glad to have a deeper understanding of your values. :)

Chase Amante's picture

@ AR

Author

Howdy AR,

I understand, and glad the post gave you some food for thought.

One thing I'd add on commitment: what a lot of people do is they take their worldview and values and assume that everyone else's versions of those views and values is similar to or the same as theirs. Therefore, if commitment is incredibly important to you, you assume that any woman in a committed relationship similarly holds commitment in high regard.

In fact, that usually won't be the case. You're going to meet women for whom commitment is even more serious than it is for you, and women for whom commitment is far less of a big deal. You'll probably even meet women who'll tell you they have a boyfriend, but will laugh it off if you tell them they're in a committed relationship. There's a lot more range and flexibility in both the relationships you'll encounter out there and the women having them than you might believe.

But I get your choice, and I think what it mostly comes down to when the focus is on "respecting commitment" is that you don't want yourself to be someone who is interfering in what may potentially be a committed situation (or may not be... often, it's impossible to know), and that's a totally acceptable place to be.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

A Quick Question:


Hi, Chase.
This is a great post.
Recently I moved to a small town for some training, and I have noticed that most girls here are taken.
After reading this post, I think I have gained some solid knowledge on how to deal with this problem.

But, how do I know whether the girl loves her boyfriend or not? Are there any indications that I can pick up from the conversations?
Because, of course, I don't want to hurt them...

Thank you.
Lance

Chase Amante's picture

Telling if a girl is in love

Author

Hey Lance,

Sure. A girl who's in love will mention her boyfriend to you. She'll also talk highly of him when she does speak about him, and never dismissively or rudely. She'll be excited to have the chance to tell you about him if she gets it, and won't want to avoid the topic.

A girl who isn't in love and wants things to move forward with you usually won't mention her boyfriend, although occasionally she'll use it to see if you're tough and can handle her. She might brag about her boyfriend, but she'll do it in a "Ha, so there!" sort of way and not a "Isn't he wonderful?" sort of way like a girl who's in love will.

Those are just a few things to get you started but should help in separating the girls who really love their boyfriends out from the ones who are only with the guy as a placeholder until they meet someone they really click with (as is often the case with women - many women will get into a relationship not because they love a guy, but because they don't want the social status hit that comes from being single too long - those are the girls you want to meet, not the ones who think their boyfriends are Mr. Wonderful!).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Clarifies it


Chase, I agree with the two types of girls that you mentioned.

The one who discusses her boyfriend in a "ha! so there" kind of way compared to the one that's full of admiration. However, I've met a girl that challenges the two binaries through being both testing of toughness and also being in admiration for the boyfriend.

For example, I took her to the most expensive dinning area, where she had that challenging look her eye when I splashed out on her as if to say "you know I got a boyfriend," but without wanting to even mention him. Later, she gave me a cheeky smile as though she enjoyed me making so much effort, and I define myself as an Alpha. I look good, make money and work on a submarine.

Another time, we were sitting in a bar, discussing Europe. She had an expression on her face and mentioned that she missed Eastern Europe (where she is from), and that her boyfriend is Eastern European and knows how to dress well. The expression and tone of voice was in full admiration of him. Her alpha of a boyfriend has been away for about a year in prison, and she's on the outside.

She talks super sweet and feminine, and I know that she wants to have nice things in her life and does have a domestic side when she's not busy at university.

I doubt any relationship expert could clarify the depths of the unknown in this woman's mind. What would you make of this from your experiences?

Al's picture

Chasing vs persistence


Hi Chase

Useful post. The majority of girls I meet these days seem to have boyfriends - so as much as I'd prefer to pursue single girls, I probably needed something like this.

One thing I STILL don't get though is the distinction between chasing and being persistent. For example, I'm not sure why you don't consider the example conversation above to be 'chasing.' I think you did address this in the comments section of another post, but even after that explanation I was left feeling confused. Apologies if I'm just being dense here. I do think this is an important point though - potentially worthy of a post in its own right.

Cheers
Al

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Chasing vs. Persistence

Author

Hey Al,

Yeah, that's a good topic idea for a post. No guarantees I'll get one up on it, but if I think of it over the next few weeks I'll see if I can.

Quick run down: the relationship between chasing and persistence is similar to that of squares and rectangles. e.g., all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Similarly, all chasing is persistence, but not all persistence is chasing.

You might define chasing as imbalanced persistence - the pursuer is putting in an overly large and ever-expanding amount of effort with ever-shrinking odds of success.

For instance, asking a girl you've just met several times to accompany you is persistence. However, if you start making increasingly desperate overtures and concessions to get her to say yes, you've veered into chasing.

Or, periodically flirting with a girl you repeatedly run into, despite her regularly laughing and telling you she has a boyfriend - standard persistence. Texting her, asking her, "Why??," bothering her and annoying her - chasing.

You can think of non-chasing persistence as something that doesn't take much effort on your part, and is attractive to the woman - she laughs, she enjoys it, and you can tell she's finding you more attractive, more manly, and more dominant for doing it.

You can think of chasing as something that's taking up increasing effort from you, and is off-putting to the woman - she's disgusted, resents it, and tries to get away from it, and you can tell she's losing respect and attraction for you and seeing you as more desperate and less confident and less successful.

Thus, non-chasing persistence actually helps attraction and ups your odds, while chasing harms attraction and reduces them. Guard against chasing, and realize it's better to let a girl now and run into her later if the only choices are chase her or let her go.

Chase

Al's picture

Re: Chasing v persistence


Chase

Thanks for the reply. So if I understand correctly, chasing is essentially persistence taken too far. You're expending a lot of energy for little return or prospect of a return.

I think I realise now why repeatedly asking a girl to move with you - as in your example - doesn't overstep the mark:

1) Persisting in this way takes up only around 30 seconds of your time. 2) As far as the girl can tell, you're not expending much emotional energy. There's no reason to suspect you'll be up all night thinking about her. 3) There's probably a decent chance that she'll end up agreeing 4) The potential rewards justify a moderate amount of effort.

It's interesting that you mentioned texting as a danger area. I don’t know why, but distance communication instinctively feels more like chasing than face to face.

Thinking about it though, the problem might just be with re-initiating contact in general. I agree with you that once you’re in a given interaction, a high level of persistence is fair game. But when you repeatedly re-initiate contact - or try to – that’s when an unproductive ‘chasing’ dynamic seems to develop. Definitely a good reason to push things as far as possible before you part ways!

This is also why I like Ricardus’ “Hi X, this is Y…save my number” text so much. (Although I personally stick a smiley face on the end). The text does move things forward, but it’s almost like you’re not re-initiating at all. You aren’t asking any questions, you aren’t trying to set up a date and you aren’t trying to start a conversation. However, the text also seems to ‘bait’ women into starting an interaction with you. I’ve found that ‘hey Y, how’s your day going?’ is a pretty typical response. So even though you sent the first text, it doesn’t feel like you’re the one in pursuit.

Hopefully that adds something. It’d be great if you do manage to get a full post up on this. If not, well, your explanation above has definitely helped clarify things!

Btw, I notice your number of facebook 'likes' is skyrocketing at the moment. Unless I'm going mad, it was only about 300 last time I came here. Nice one. How have you managed that?

Cheers

Al

Dan A's picture

Great stuff


Hello Chase, I'm new to your site, and I love your interesting topics and analytical insights. I've read through several posts over the past 72 hours or so, and I thought that in one of the older ones focused on closing you said something to the effect of it taking 2 hours or trying to escalate a girl because she had a boyfriend she really loved. Were you unaware, or have your views simply evolved since then? This issue is a gray area for me, and I'm still trying to be able to more readily discern really in love versus really secure/attached. Anyway thanks, and love your work! -dan

Woman's picture

Open relationships


Hi, and thanks for the post.

I don't know if this is relevant, but there are also some women (and men, naturally) who have an open relationship, i.e. they have a boyfriend but have mutually agreed they can also have other people as lovers. I am a married woman living in a relationship like that. I don't know how common this is but anyway.

If you met a woman like me, I think the reason for mentioning the husband/boyfriend could be that she's trying to get a chance to tell you about this. First, she'll tell you she has a man, then, she'll tell you it doesn't matter. :) And she has to tell you this because she would feel guilty and insecure if you didn't know. She wants to make sure that you're both after the same thing, so she won't feel she's being dishonest with you... which sounds very ethical of course, but actually I think it's more about a personal need to feel accepted. If you accept her way of being in a relationship (and still want to sleep with her), that means you understand her, which means she'll relax in your company, which means she'll want to sleep with you too. :)

Still one point on ethics: for my part, I don't think I'd easily give in to a man who's telling me he'd sleep with another man's girlfriend. ("It's ok, your bf will never know!") It's funny, because there have been situations where a man knows that I'm married, but DOESN'T know about the open relationship, and he's trying to seduce me telling me things like this, and I've got mad and turned him off, even if, in principle, I might have said yes. And very likely would have said yes, too, had the approach been different. But, in general, I don't feel good about cheating. I don't mean to judge here, I'm just saying that if someone's openly suggesting cheating, I don't find him attractive. Maybe that's because I have strong feelings for my husband and I don't like the idea that some other man is not respecting him. Or maybe it's just because I would feel like he's not respecting ME. I don't know. Still, some other kind of approach might work better with me.

But then again, I guess women like me are a small minority, and I really don't know what are the chances of running into one of us anyway. :) Have you met any?

Tasty's picture

Category? Or am I just a hopeless romantic.


First off, You certainly have some experience with women as much of what you say on how to make women like you, seems fairly accurate.

The girl I have became fond off is similar to a few categories, but is also different in its own right( as I am sure with most women).

First off, she is friends with the same group of my friends, but less then I am. She certainly seems interested in me, may not be romantic but she enjoys me as a person. I have not pressed any real charm to woo her to see past that. She may still "love" her boyfriend, but she certainly isn't happy with him.

Now I don't want to sleep with her, while she has a boyfriend, that is not my style and I may hear it from my friends. However, I do want to be charming and explain my interest in her. Is that a good idea? Or is it best to hold out for another day when she is single, and get the ball rolling instead of a simple gesture.

Mayhem's picture

Hey Chase, First of all I'd


Hey Chase,
First of all I'd like to congratulate you on your spectacular blog!
Very easily understandable, applicable and plain down-to-earth information...
(and this is coming frrom a guy who has read many PU related material)

This article specifically intrigued me because right now I'm after a girl who is in a relationship... Let's put the ethics aside for a moment, I read your "debate" with one of the commenters above, and I agree with your side of the argument. Truth is, if you have a woman who is sought after, there will always be someone who wants her, it's up to you to keep her with you, or if she's the "wandering" kind, then you just screwed up in thinking she would be yours forever...

Anyway, this girl is in the periphery of my social circle, friend of a friend, so I rarely see her. But I've been contacting her almost on a weekly basis for a few months via text message or Skype... I now think this is a mistake.
I really don't know how to classify her, she's either a tease or a green light.
She very rarely talks about her boyfriend, and usually changes the subject when it is brought up. I've already expressed interest pretty clearly and have tried to set up dates more than once, she usually agrees, and then cancels at the last minute (she usually goes out of town on the weekends and often only knows about it a few days prior, so it isn't easy to set up a date when both of us are free)

Now I'm up to the point where I'm thinking it's best to just let her go, and stop persisting, but in the back of my mind I think she just needs a little push. I think if I can get her to go out with me, I can make things happen, but at the same time I don't want to seem needy...
Keep in mind that at the same time I'm dating other girls, but am clearly focusing my mental efforts on this one, which is also not good.

Based on the information I gave you, what do you suggest?
Hopefully I'm not late to this post, seems that the last time you replied was a couple of weeks ago...

Thanks anyway!

Ed's picture

Chase What about when you


Chase

What about when you were dating someone who goes cold on you (you dont know the reason). Is periodically texting her and trying to get an interaction going/ date arranged chasing or persistence?

Or does it depend on the context?

Thanks in advance

Fibbie's picture

Friend Advice


Hey Chase,

So I have this friend that I've loved for 3 years, we didn't talk much at first but later on we started to talk and text all the time and I eventually got into the friend zone. We sang on the phone together, she gave me and told me important stuff she'd never tell anyone. She could've been my girlfriend if I asked her out but I was too scared. Eventually it was too late to ask her out on a date and this other dude asked her out and they've been dating since May 12th but they see each other and hang out once in awhile. I suspect they talk to each other all the time however your advice was quite true about the attention seekers. She used to always come to me whenever she was bored and I guess she saw me more as a friend but something inside of me says that she had feelings for me once and now we have 2 classes together at school. Her boyfriend goes to a different school from her and is in a different county, however I see her twice a week in college (dual enrolling - taking high school and college at the same time) and she sees me but we never talk in person. I think she's in the honeymoon phase with her boyfriend because she never talks or texts me anymore and isn't that close in person, however one day she took me out to go to McDonalds drive thru to eat (she was driving) and her boyfriend called on the phone and she told me to be quiet or else he would get mad because of another guy with her. But anyway all of this has changed, we don't talk anymore and she only talks to him I think and I feel as if our friendship is drifting away but she texted me finally today and just asked me if I was okay but it had no smiley faces or anything. I know I can't force her to like or care for me but should I just lay it low in class (she sits next to me) and just ignore her until she misses me or something bad happens to her boyfriend and her or should I just keep it low and be super happy and talk to all of my other friends and whenever I talk to her I'm just quiet and still caring but not as talkative? Should I get her gifts for her birthday or try to gain back her trust or not? Because I got jealous once and took a picture of all her boyfriends wallposts on Facebook and sent it to her and she ended up blocking me from everything except texting and calling and I kinda pulled a suicide threat cause she didn't talk to me for attention but she forgave me from all of that stuff. It's just the times I wanted to talk to her she wasn't there and when we argued she would isolate herself instead of talk out our problems. What should I do? Thanks for all of your help and your advice is really good!

All the Best,

-V

Trix's picture

Hi, I've read many of your


Hi,

I've read many of your posts, they are truly interesting!!!

What I would like to know is, could you use the same approach if the situation is the oposit? I meet a man who already has a girlfriend?

I follow my feelings, he seams to have them as well, but he never talks about his relationship or anything close to it...

We have an awesome connection and the level of texting is mind blowing... But we haven't been more intimate then kissing several times. Going on for the last 5 months, I'm getting frustrated!!!!

Advice on how to move forward or letting go?? I'm getting nuts and way more obsessive over this than I should...

Kind regards,

Trix

Anonymous's picture

Girl that loves you but has a boyfriend?


So recently me and my "friend" were talking and well we had kissed before over and over. She told me that she had gotten a boyfriend one day through facebook one day after i kissed her, but i have known her for a while and she likes me and i like her. Dont ask how old we are just go with it. She has a boyfriend but she says that she loves me and not him and that she didnt know what to do. I told her it was up to her that it was her life, her choice.

I read what you pointed out in not trying to compete to be her boyfriend but the thing is kind of looked like it at first so I made up this character that supposedly was my 18 year old friend who went through what she was going through and that she was in love with someone but they didnt go out and she got a boyfriend. Then as time passed the guy lost interest in her and she wanted him back saying that she felt like she made the wrong decision[all being said by the made up character].

She says she wasn't able to think straight and that though she had thoughts of leaving him she didnt want to do it for some odd reason which she hasnt revealed to me and supposedly doesnt know what they are. I talk to her a lot practicly every single day but even though i do really like her and she says she really really likes me i kind of am losing interest in her but i dont want to. I want to be with her but she is making it hard.

Any suggestions?

dave's picture

great site, valuable info


came across you site while trying to find some info on dating, etc. trying to update my skills just like would for a job. Your site was a pimp slap of HARD TRUTH. I did that whole texting crap a few years back after some tragic losses, I was weak, and in moments of weakness we stupid stuff. everything you described was exactly the way it all played out for me. when I realized how deep i was in. but, we learn from our experiences. Thanks for all the valuable information. good stuff.
What I have been looking for is info on any experiences as to why a girl would tell you "i have a boyfriend" when you first meet and are chatting casually or if you progress to chatting online (which I am new at) they will say "my boyfriend is sleeping right now". they say this but you never showed any interest in them. I assumed they are trying to test the water.
if anyone has any feedback on it that would be cool.

Again, great site, lots of valuable information. keep it going man.

Anonymous's picture

Hi chase, i found your


Hi chase, i found your article extrememly insightful and helpful, but i ran into one problem recently: What if a girl actually flat out tells you she LOVES her boyfriend, but then procceeds to not talk "highly" of him, and complain about him, and how he doesnt treat her right and so on...is she really in love or maybe she just thinks she is? i hit a roadblock at this point trying to figure out what category this particular girl is in.

"Harvey"'s picture

Looking for help!


Hey Chase,

love this post and others on the site, has given me great and plentiful insight to the world of women, but i seem to have myself in quite the situation with a girl in particular.

If you would gladly bear with me, i'll try and do my best with quick, detailed rundown. So basically, i've known and been talking to this girl who i will refer to as Ashley from here on, for about a year and 3 months now. For as long as i've known Ashley, shes lived with her boyfriend of 3 and now 4 years. Shes a great girl, beautiful face, bitchin body, im still not sure how i even managed to get her to like me but i did, and over the course of my year talking to her i've come to love her and i have the same in return from her. I want nothing more than to make her my own girlfriend, but after a year of work she's still with said boyfriend and the most "official" progress i've made is her changing her facebook relationship status from "in a relationship" to "its complicated".

It should be important to note that we are romantic with each other, after 3 months of talking we shared our first kiss (3 days after her 3 year anniversary with her bf, which i find interesting), which with time lead into making out, and from there it just snowballed, steadily making our way around the basses over the next few months. So yes we do sleep with each other, have been for awhile now, and we can definitely say we're lovers. But there's a little more than that, she's claimed that im her single true best friend, and we've discussed marriage and children and the works, which she claims has NEVER talked about with anyone else, that she cant see herself with anyone but me in the future, etc. Despite all of this however, shes still with her boyfriend. He even knows a bit about that too is the thing. (he doesn't know im having sex with her, only her and i know that much). Just recently on the day of their 4th anniversary (which i still find interesting) he brought up that he saw us texting each other i love and you and goodnight, to which she replied that we say that because its true, we do love each other and that im her best friend because i was there for her when no one else was and that im not going anywhere...to which he apologized for accusing her of things. ...yea, he said sorry -_-

To me her only real drawback is that, that she lives with him of course, and over time it's hurt more and more knowing she goes home to him every night and not me, and it leaves me paranoid and thinking that they're still having sex when she insists she hasn't done anything with him for "the greater part of the year now", and i cant quite 100% believe that's true. I know in a certain light you could say i cant be mad at her for sleeping with her boyfriend, but after all the marriage children to our end of days talk, it would just be the biggest slap in the face and her going back on all of that, as far as im concerned.

I know me believing her or not on things is on me and that it's not good, im not saying shes all to blame for our issues, but it's to the point now where i ever wonder if we're going to end up together. After reading this i've realized i've made a couple of mistakes unfortunately, she definitely knows that i want to date her. She claims that im being too pushy about it, and that she obviously needs a place to live, and that if i don't want her living with him then i'll provide a place for her to live. She's said that shes talked with her parents about the 2 of them moving back in (to which she added that they would then break up, him move out to his own place and they're done) and that they're cool with it, but that was almost 2 months ago and nothings changed, its just been talk so far.

So one would think, "ok, just move out then". I very much want to, 21 and at home with mommy doesn't exactly bring the ladies screaming, but it hasn't been that easy for me. Being a temp across numerous jobs, not holding any of them down, you get the idea. But with how blunt shes been about it, i feel she just wants to shackle up and do anything to not live her parents again, hence why i think she's yet to follow through with moving back in with them despite saying that's her game plan. I feel it's almost too easy to just get my own place.

My question is after all this, is she still worth pursuing? We have our up's and downs like anyone else, we both have red flags out there, but im not sure anymore if things will end in my favor should i continue pursuing her. Should it really be as simple as moving out? How do i know she's not fucking him despite pleading to me that shes not? Am i wasting my time with her? Or on the flipside, should i hang in there and see where it goes? What can i improve upon? Am I on the verge of a big breakthrough? Please tell me what you think

Anonymous's picture

Re: Looking for help!


"My question is after all this, is she still worth pursuing?"

I'll be very blunt here. No. No she is not.

Why? The reality is, you can't force a woman into a relationship (or anyone) and expect it to go well. You can't "pursue" a woman, you can really only seduce them. Once you start pursuing you've already lost. It's why this site is called girlschase.com and not chasegirls.com

You need to realize that all these problems you think you have with this woman are ONLY because you're in a lack of abundance. Do you think you'd be wasting your time with her if you had multiple beautiful women (who also are completely your type) chasing after you?

And it's not like I haven't been here before. I have, multiple times. It doesn't work. It violates so many social aspects of dating, and no matter how stubborn and "persistent" you are with acquiring her love.. It's never worth it.

Even if you do pull her away from her boyfriend, you still pursued her. She's the one-up. She's in control. She has options.

Down the line she's going to lose interest in you, just like she has with her boyfriend. You're not a challenge, and you're going to be stuck in that position. And when she does lose interest in you (and this WILL happen), I'll be honest. You'll be royally screwed. You would have wasted all your time on this girl, and for what? You haven't focused your effort on something that will withstand time (such as seduction).

I know I'm being a bit harsh but you really need to hear this. Your approach to women and dating is going to cost you in the long run, and it's simply a problem of not meeting enough new women.

Harvey, I don't want you ending up like that.

Cut ties with this girl, and stick around on the site. Go through the articles on the sidebar. You'll find your path.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/absolute-abundance
http://www.girlschase.com/content/cant-stop-thinking-about-her-heres-why...

- Eric

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