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A reader commented on my article on backward rationalization about women’s frequent misremembering or twisting of past event details:
“This is a great article. As a rational man, with integrity, I struggle with this all the time. Young women will routinely misremember things that they said and did, in a way that allows them to not accept responsibility. They’ll conjure up conversations, filling in my words, for their benefit. Very often it is to save them from losing face. Other times it is so they can avoid confronting the truth about themselves. To me, this is lying, but if I’m mad about it, it’s some “loss of frame”.
I had a post about this on redpill reddit a few months ago, asking if you should ever question a girl about why she was dishonest, as it seems pointless. The consensus seems that you just tell a woman what she did, and that it wont be tolerated. When she argues, you ignore.”
What our reader here is remarking on is one of the core differences in how men and women perceive the world, and it’s one it’s tremendously important to have a handle on if you want to run your relationships with women well.
The understanding is this: how a woman remembers a past event has less to do with the facts of the event than it has to do with how she feels right now.
This sounds topsy-turvy and wrongheaded from a male perspective, because how on Earth can you expect to create a sane and stable world if the past shifts with the sands of your very emotions?
However, it serves a critical role in how women deal with the world, as well as with those around them.
Comments
Thanks for the article. I
Thanks for the article. I especially like this idea of reminding her of the emotions she felt before. That might work when pointing out the lies. For example, you state she lied and then suggest maybe she was afraid for some reason or another. Then she can embrace the feeling without worrying you are judging her. If you accurately call out the emotional reason, and comfort her...perhaps she won't do it as often going forward.
Hello,
Hello,
the underlying issue I find with emotional control is that it requires knowing what she feels. I mean, in order to get somewhere, you need to know where you want to go. But also, if someone drops you in the middle of a desert, it will not be much use just knowing you want to get to Paris. And that is, I think, the obstacle that majority of guys (including me) face. And I would say this ability to read her emotions comes from experience. And since most guys dont have the experience, they cant do it. And they dont have the experience because of whatever reason - mindset, low value, attainability, not calibrated enough. Or is there a way to read her emotions and how she feels? My guess is body language but then again, you need the experience, but that could be an answer to anything I guess.
To me this made me ponder about stuff like... Dont flirt just for the sake of flirting, flirt as a tool to instill certain emotions in her. Then deep dive so that she feels a connection and not just to find out something about her.
Regards,
Michal
Learning to Read Emotions
Michal-
Yes, that’s certainly true – tough to read emotions without enough reference experiences to draw your conclusions from.
There’s no easy answer for that; read up on how to read women’s signs, and that will help:
… however, the biggest part is you simply need to get more experience with women, and do so with an approach of “I’m trying to figure out what she’s thinking and feeling” so you’re paying attention to that as you’re out and picking up on signs and testing out hypotheses. As you do this, over time, you get better and better at reading people, to the point where you can begin to seem almost psychic.
Chase
Monogamy - non-monogamy
What a great article Chase. I remember you saying a few years ago that you would not discuss in here how a man can keep a women monogamous with him while he can be non-monogamous with her. I wonder what changed your mind to discuss it a bit further... I had my share of ladies but can't imagine how the conversation would go. Is it possible only with women who perceive you to have much greater value than themselves ?
Relationship Valuations
Alexaco-
Well, I’m not quite giving the keys to the kingdom here ;) My main concern is not sitting down and spelling out anywhere how to set up and run a one-sided monogamous relationship – the guys who really want to do it will figure it out whether I spell it out or say nothing at all, I’m mostly just avoiding putting a series of steps out there the “unready” will use oafishly and do a lot of damage with.
Anyway, you needn’t be substantially higher value than a girl to set up an arrangement like this, but it will necessarily impact her valuation of you and her AFTER the fact. It’s hard for a woman not to view you as either a prince or scumbag (depending on her emotions du jour toward you) when she stays faithful yet knows you’re not.
Chase
WTF
Damn, I don't blame men for sucking with women...this is crazy.
Christopher Ryan's Point
Hey Chase,
Along the lines of woman misremembering, there's an interesting point that Christopher Ryan makes on Joe Rogan's podcast. As you know, Christopher Ryan wrote "Sex at Dawn" and has a second book coming out called "Civilized to Death". On Joe Rogan's podcast #739, he makes a very interesting point about an experiment that was done regrading woman's scents. It has to do with woman being on the pill, menstruation, their attraction to men, and how they will break up with men once they're off the pill because of this point made by Ryan.
If you Youtube Rogan's podcast #739, it's at 2:34:24. Not sure what the time is if you listen to it on iTunes. But do check it out. It's extremely fascinating, and it's coming from Christopher Ryan, who is extremely well versed in the matters of civilization and the sexes.
Cheers,
Evan
keep asking
hey chase,
Your articles open my mind! merry xmas !
Re: texting,
JGIG propose date in person and then texts to figure a time. No witty banter, no rapport building, no other stuff. If that's the case, then every text from JGIG will be asking her out. She says too busy, waits, then ask again. Ya time pass but she looks at text history and sees all those asking her out only.
If every text is an invitation, maybe that be a turn off and come across needy desperate? I might be missing the picture haha apologies! you know, like some filler between asks...
maybe some witty to warm her up to a emotional high in between asks so she wanna more or intrigue her to come out eg "So you wanna know.. I'm down to tell you over a glass of wine" is better? rids the invite in rows in text history too? She looks back, sees content beside asks and says, "He's pretty cool" and not "He kept asking me in a row...he really wants me, but why did I say no...hes so needy"
JGIG
Texting
JGIG-
Your texts should not be straight invitations and nothing else - you want to include nice bits in there as well. See these articles:
If you're getting declines, that means either:
You're not pitching the date before you take the number
You're not asking in a way that's easy for her to agree to (see above articles)
She's not terribly interested in you
The first two are easily corrected - pitch the idea of the two of you meeting up before you trade numbers, and ask women out in the way outlined in the articles.
If it's #3, you're not going to rebuild attraction via text, so try a phone call... it's the better bet:
I don't recommend text message flirting these days because:
It takes a lot of time and effort to do (sending her ~20 messages means you're spending a few hours at least thinking about how to respond to her and waiting to hear back from her / checking your phone, whereas a phone call takes 10 minutes and it's done)
Because it takes a lot of time and effort to do, you're investing substantially more in the girl than you would with, say, a phone call, which increases your chances of getting hung up on the girl or grossly overvaluing her, and takes away from time you could use for other things... like meeting women more willing to come out with you ;)
Use phone calls. They're more effective and more efficient. If your phone game's not on-point just yet, it will be after you've chatted with enough women on the phone. It's just another skill set.
Chase
white knight complex
Re: white knight
i'd saw a lady get robbed by prisky pickers, white knight, will you chase after the criminal for the lady? I mean we see people need help, do we still help?
Helping Hand
JGIG-
Good question. Totally depends on you. Whatever your rules for a woman here should be the same as yours for a man though. e.g., if you saw a guy get mugged, would you chase down the attacker?
I had a girl cause a car accident between myself and another driver that almost got me killed. The girl cut off a driver behind me, who swerved to avoid hitting her, lost control of the vehicle, and came flying back into the side of my car, sending me careening down the highway and into a 10-foot cement wall. The girl who caused the whole thing floored it and fled the scene, but this other guy tailed her and took her license plate down and followed her until she ran three red lights to escape him and got away. He called the police and we knew who she was wholly because of this guy’s awesome citizenry. I always think of that guy when I ask myself when to step in versus when not to.
Obviously, if the guy’s got a gun or a knife, don’t chase after him probably. Better her cards and ID than your life. But if he’s just a purse snatcher, and he’s unarmed? If it’s me, I’d go after the guy, personally. Same if I saw him bean some dude and take off with something the guy was carrying.
Chase
Women's Past / Show you "get it"
Hey Chase,
Merry Christmas bro! Don't be too rough on the lucky ladies ;)
No wait, give them screaming experiences as their presents! Go get em tiger!
I really enjoy your articles as newly written articles update previous puzzle pieces from old articles. And it's so insightful to see the whole picture gradually depict the ultimate spotlight - elite.
This article reminds me a lot of women's past and how we show them "we get it" so they lower their guards and show us that sexual beast of theirs.
On a date of mine, I directed the conversation (clumsily but I'll keep chiselling!) to hooking up and nightstands. She was uncomfortable (inexperience?).
Anyway, I dropped the "Everyone had a nightstand before" from "Women's Forgotten Past" article.
She maintained her neutral expression, and didn't blink an eye. I guess she found it completely irrelevant to her. Then, I thought, "maybe there's more, I better show her I get it."
I searched through my mind about that article how to show her I get it, but forgot it myself.
So I went explicit. I directed the conversation to sex and women.
Me: I just see women as human. They (pause) like everyone else, have their own needs.
Her: nods
Me: I'm sure you'll come across it eventually. Every women does.
Change topic.
Then after awhile,
Me: You know that look of yours gives off this very sexy vibe...
Feel like a dad explaining to his son about puberty...terrible I presume? It gets worse.
She still didn't open up, so I went more blatant.
As we walked to the bus,
Me: The reason why you're so prude isn't because you're religious right?
Her: Oh no, nope.
I personally thought that was terrible, but am super thankful for experiencing that early on.
And your website helping me with my learning curve.
I probably wouldn't be going on dates without you and your team.
What are your thoughts?
Re: Informational date template
One more thing, that was an informational date. She never came out again.
Do we still go for first date sex for all types of dates and not certain ones, such as informational ones? I went to downtown with her, but the washroom was busy as ever or else I could pull her into a stall. I imagine locking it too but it doesn't feel right. I also doubted to pull because her emotional aren't cresting. Side note was she also told me she had to buy groceries an hour later.
If I could get some logistics advice (my pad were not available or her pad) too, would be great!
Thanks Chase for reading all that!
Ciao,
Lawliet
Virgins
Hey Chase! I was wondering if someone could write aa n article on confronting female virgin's in the field, in relationships and how to break up with them eventually. How to do all this without destroying their disney-like view of love and sex in general. How could on be a good driving force in their life? Thank you.
Re: Virgins
Darkwings-
I’ll add it to the queue!
Breaking up is nearly always going to be an emotionally wrenching experience no matter what her experience level is. For an inexperienced girl it’s even more so though, because she’s never experienced it before.
Even with virgins, however, it varies tremendously from girl to girl. There are some for whom sex really isn’t that big of a deal, even if you’re their first. There are others for whom the two of you going to bed together means the start of a lifelong love affair, however – I’d recommend just steering far clear of girls like this, because there’s no way to end things with them that won’t be traumatic. Aim for the “cool” virgins, unless you know you want to wife a girl up or are okay with being the guy who’s the first one to break her heart.
Chase
Virgins
Hello Chase! I've noticed there isn't much information on encountering virgins in the field and in terms of love or relationships with them. How can one be a good driving force in their lives without then getting too attached after sex becuase the can't equate the sex doesn't always equal love. Or when their very socially calibrated and you can't tell they're virgin till it's drop on you right before sex? Some guidance in this area would be much appreciated.
maintaing a relationship
Hi Chase.
As much as i dont have much problem with pick up and short term relations, I have found it impossible to maintain a longer relationship. It is almost as if suddenly my value dropped to zero. The pattern repeats itself all the time and its been going on for years now. At the beginning, women get crazy about me, the persue a relationship and after more or less 3-4 months there is a complete almost overnight shoft in the interest department.
Is it possible that I employ too much game at the beginning so they are attracted to someone im not? I may put on some game at the beginning which makes them pursue me hard and then the moment i get involved, usually after a couple of months, i show them i am involved and their interest drops, they start criticizing me, and its almost like eveything i do is SUDDENLY bad and wrong or ridiculous.
If yoy are in a relationship with somebody of course you show you care, what would be the point otherwise. Why does my value drop a couple of months after we enter the relationship?
Game-Personality Disconnect
Straw-
Yes, if you date women who chase after you, you have to have a personality type they will continue to chase even once together. If you’re the type prone to chasing yourself, you probably want to set aside any game designed to make them chase, and simply show lots of interest and compliment and flatter and run that style of game from the outset, so that your early game is more congruent with your later personality.
The problem with a game-personality disconnect like this is if you’re focused on making women chase, they’re going to view you as this really strong, aloof dude who’s too busy with his mission to get sucked into emotions and feeling. If they then start dating you and out come the emotions and feeling, it feels like a bait-and-switch: oh, he’s suddenly turning sappy? Geez, what happened to the cool bad boy I was with?
On the other hand, if you adopt a much more forward, compliment-based, interest-showing game, where you’re almost chasing girls, but not quite, then you can go right into emotional stuff from the get go: you can be in bed with her the first time around and tell her oh, I love the smell of your body so much; oh, the feel of your skin is just intoxicating. Then instead of thinking she’s made you sappy, she’s going to say to herself, “This guy’s a flatterer; I bet he does this with every girl, and it’s just how he is.”
You want an early game that is congruent with your later personality. So long as you have a match between the two, she won’t feel like there is a “shift” later, and thus won’t have to stop and think, “Hmm, how have I affected him?”
(if you shift from chasing to aloof, she thinks you’ve lost interest in her, and your attainability tanks, and if you shift from aloof to chasing, she thinks you’ve suddenly gotten weak in the knees for her, and your value tanks, basically. If you are simply always the same, she never has cause to think something’s happened, and you just go on being whom you’ve always been to her)
Chase
Sex timing
When are the times you should give her sexual pleasure? Do it as only a way to reward her in some way or routinely "every several hours"..? What are underlying ideas of calibrating the timing when you should have sex and when not. I know the part of operant conditioning when you need to shy away from giving her pleasure for disruptive behavior which is poor precedent in it's own, but what with other times? Should sex become something you do more randomly or something predictable like "every evening and before going to work we bang".
I guess some times not being into sex and having unpredictability helps better than routine which gives too much comfort, ease and is less challenging.
What do you think on it? When it should be your sex o'clock, when you're already dating that chick? For me it seems that it mostly depends on how much she finds sex exciting and how hungry for it we both are.
Sex O'Clock
Anon-
I don’t time it specifically myself. If I feel like, I go for it, if I don’t, I don’t. However, it is good to mix up timing and how you do it sometimes. If you have “lazy sex” 80% of the time, it’s good to spring on her with unannounced, impassioned, wild sex another 28% to 29% of the time, and *very occasionally* set up some romantic sex as well (she comes over and you have a warm bath drawn with rose petals floating on the water and candles around the tub, for instance, then romantically peel her clothes off and ease her into the bathtub, then join her).
This seems to be largely determined by the woman’s sexual appetite; some women you’ll sleep with and you just shag each other over and over again, because they have a hungry appetite for sex. Other women you’ll sleep with and you have sex once each time you see them, sometimes twice, and that’s enough.
I do think, especially if you have a woman who’s more like the latter and you aren’t as inclined to just grab her and take her to bed (because she isn’t super horny all the time herself), it’s good to mix it up sometimes and surprise her with sex at non-ordinary times and in non-ordinary ways:
Turn On Your Girlfriend with Raw Sexual Enthusiasm
Sexual or romantic. Then you make sex more of a major focus of the relationship and less a ‘perk’.
This spices things up more, and also makes her more likely to initiate more herself. And sometimes you’ll find as you do things like this that you “unlock” a woman’s sexuality and she begins to crave it more as well. Much of the time she’s simply never had a man who’s allowed her to feel very sexual around him before.
Chase
Unprovoked Abuse
"You’ll run into it trying to get reliable information from her (e.g., by the time a woman tells you she had an abusive ex-boyfriend, she’ll often have completely forgotten whatever things she did to incite that abuse – there are very few men who come home and just start hurling insults at a girlfriend unprovoked"
Nice article as usual, Chase, but I disagree with this part.
In fact abuse usually is unprovoked. It's not about what the victim has done, it's about the abuser's personal issues and insecurities. Of course the abuser will invent, or vastly exaggerate, a misdemeanour in order to convince themselves, the victim and third parties that the abuse is justified and normal. We should never fall for that or allow ourselves to follow that practice.
Of course, sometimes a woman will call things "abuse" that aren't (for example standing up to HER bulllying).
Nevertheless abuse does happen, and the abuser will always try to justify it by blaming the victim.
Merry Christmas
Criticism
Hey Chase,
I just read up your comment, http://www.girlschase.com/comment/70828#comment-70828
Thanks for the advice about sex objections!
Can you elaborate on what observations regarding my lack of social intuition?
From comments, what I say, or how I interact, just anything!
I want to identify what needs work and then fix it to make myself better!
So don't hold back, I won't be mopping, that's useless.
Instruct me anything that needs work!
I'm putty clay in thy hands, O' Wise One :)
Lawliet
Signs of Mechanical Learning Only
Lawliet-
Well, you ask a lot of questions that I think most guys would just “get” intuitively.
You ask questions about simple social rules that folks don’t usually need to ask about.
Even in the comments, you violate a lot of unspoken social norms, like referring to me (your teacher, essentially) in chummy or patronizing ways that could easily be mistaken as rude or mocking (except I realize you’re just copying what you’ve seen me or others do and are not aware of the subtexts). Other things too like spamming comments, or not picking up on that I don’t answer guys’ individual “This one girl did X, what should I do?” questions and direct guys to the boards for those.
Just lots of little signs that you miss a lot of social cues, which means you’re likely a purely mechanical learner and not someone who figures things out purely by osmosis.
We get a fair few guys around here like that, since I spell things out more than, well, anyone else, so GC tends to attract the mechanical learners – after a while you start picking up on the various signs this type of learner exhibits; there are lots of similarities between guys of that learning style.
Chase
Finding an article
Speaking of sex objections, there was an article you wrote (I think) about going up resistance with a girl. Inside, you talked about how you persisted hard but she still wouldn't let down, so you started to pull up your pants, and said something on the lines of that you two might not see again and asked if she's sure, before leaving out the door of her place.
Ricardus has something like this, but that's not it. It's not the same anecdote.
Does it ring any bells?
Lawliet
Ricardus
Lawliet-
Not sure. Try going through his articles:
http://www.girlschase.com/articles/ricardus-domino
I think the last 7 or 8 were from his "Boots on the Ground" series, where he spins anecdotes into lessons, so you might start with those.
Chase
Training for relationship management : a negligible number
"Many men who haven’t taken the time to train up this ability will balk and ask why they should have to be a woman’s emotional babysitter? "
True, few people consciously "train" in picking up, and only a fraction of those look for conscious improvement in relationship management.
That would be such a small percentage of people, it's negligible, those who do, do so probably mostly unconsciously.
Testing her
Dear Chase,
Thank you for your enlightening insights! I have read, "Do you need game" article and your clarification for why was a convincing explanation.
In addition, others use test to know us, even things we do not let on, including women.
Taking things into our own perspective and how others find out about us, how do we use this concept to our advantage and test others to find more about them than what they let on? thank you for your time!
Re: Testing Her
Tests-
You can use screening, which is how you find out more about women.
And you can use deep diving for this, which in my mind is the best tool out there for finding out a woman’s deepest, darkest motivational impulses, bar none!
Also check out my article on eliciting values, and if you specifically want to know about a woman’s sexual history, you might be well served by getting comfortable using sex talk and sex stories like Alek Rolstad, or learning to identify the characteristics of women with varying partner counts / sexual histories.
Also, challenging women and flirting with them is testing; see these articles:
Chase
move her
yo chase, thanks for the article. i know how much it's stressed to move her, but at what point is it good? after approach, mid conversation, or end of conversation or even unlisted? thanks chase!
Moving, Escalation Windows
Anon yo-
Move her as soon as you can! Move her on approach, if you can manage it: “Here, scoot over here so we don’t get run over.” Definitely move her longer distance within 2 to 10 minutes of chatting with her. The sooner you can get her to move somewhere quieter or take a seat or a walk with you or change venues with you, the better.
On recognizing escalation windows, look for expectancy. If she’s looking at you expectantly, acting a little nervous, has stopped asking you things and isn’t going into as lengthy answers yet isn’t going anywhere, escalation window. Or if it seems like she’s trying to suggest something… escalation window. Or if she seems frustrated and starts talking about how men never get this or that, you’re probably in danger of missing an escalation window (and she thinks you’re about to).
On the example from “Escalation Windows”, I think you’re asking for examples of voice tone, facial expressions, how you’re going about it, etc., correct? The way I do it is basically playful, false-beseeching her, a kind of faux-chasing – like you’re chasing her, but not really. A little dramatic. Half-funny, half-serious. Maybe think of how Sean Connery would deliver something like this: perfectly confident he’ll get the compliance from her, but not authoritarian about it, still with a smile on his face, and if she walks regardless, he knows she’ll want to see him again later.
That’s about the best I can do on paper though. If you want to see an example, I’ll have a course out on this in spring or early summer in which I’ll showcase plenty of examples of everything taught here, so stay tuned for that!
Chase
example of such
yo chase, lastly thanks for your advice to my comments. I have two escalation windows questions. first is how to recognize escalation windows and what they're like? second is in your example scenario from escalation windows and how to respond
girl: Fine, I'm over with you.
you: warm, sexy, not needy or chasing response
can you go into that more, how it looks like and an example of creating such response? thanks chase!
Day Game Article
Just read your newest article about club game, great article.
Think you can make a similar one about day game and how easy it is?
I usually do clubs because it's more normal to me.
Also what age is too old to be picking up at clubs?
Day Game, Club Age
SZ-
Sure, I’ll add that to the article queue!
As for what age is too old for clubs, well, whatever age clubs stop working for you! Generally past a certain age you need a reason to be there though. I’d say maybe 45 or 50 if you’re in good shape and attractive for your age. If you’re not, 35 may be the upper limit. Past those ages, you need to be somehow connected to the club scene for it to make sense.
e.g., I know a few guys who are really good with girls and are over 60 years old that can pick up 20-somethings no problem almost anywhere, and they’re slim and energetic and healthy-looking, but it’d just be a little odd to see them in a nightclub filled with young folks. I’m sure they could still pick up there, but they’d probably have to settle for lower quality girls than they’d get elsewhere, unless they had a high value reason for being in the club (club owner; attorney to the DJ and the DJ dragged him along; etc.).
Chase
Self-deprecating when insulted & Teasing her difficulty
Dear Chase,
Your information on my recent read, "How to Break Rapport" is an incredible addition to my repertoire. Additionally, my last question is about what teasing boundaries we can go when playing with fire. Referring to your warning not to tease or flirt with girls when she's being difficult,
I would like to confirm if I've grasp your concept correctly. If you can identify such in my following examples, I would be very grateful.
Re: She's being difficult
Examples of bad reactions from me:
Her: I'm not into you
Guy: Playing hard to get are we? / Omg princess, you hurt my heart! (fake cries) / Aren't you a bad girl.
Incidentally, your article peaked my curiosity in terms of "what if I used self-deprecating humor in face of difficulty?"
Examples:
Her: Do you even lift? (in a come on, really?)
Guy: Hahaha and I'm also a pirate! Arrrr!
Her: What butterfingers!
Guy: Oh totally (holds up her phone)
Or if you can't get her phone
Guy: Yeah butterfingers, what a trouble and evil devil I am ;)
Re: Teasing boundaries and playing with fire.
The logic why I classify such as playing with fire, because it can come off as needy.What I refer to are actions such as pointing out her lack of text replies. That and similar situations where one points out their act of difficulty can come off as needy and whining. However, would you recommend teasing their lack of replies over text when she picks up the phone?
Something akin to "Ah, so you wanted to hear my sexy voice, is that it? ;)" which frames her as chasing you with her difficulty and sets a playful teasing tone at the beginning of the phone call. Many coaches agree with avoiding coming off needy or whiny and set the boundary with bringing her difficulty into topic. That's true, but is the topic of her difficulty to blame for such impression or the underlying tone when addressing it?
That is the question.
Thanks for your time
jgig
Tease Calibration
JGIG-
Yes, those examples are not bits you’d want to use. When a woman is unhappy, you making light just seems tone deaf. When she’s critiquing you and you try to laugh it off, it looks like you’re uncomfortable with the tension she’s creating and are trying to defuse it. One makes her feel like she’s talking to a robot, the other like she’s talking to a scaredy cat.
If possible, when being critiqued, respond by finding a way to make her comply with you, or respond nonverbally, or (ideally) both. e.g.:
On a woman picking up the phone and you giving her “Gotcha!” chase frames, best avoided. The reason why is it is NOT reflective of what she’s doing, and in fact is probably opposite of it – if she’s been dodging you and answers your call, odds are she’s thinking, “Ah, this guy. Well, let’s give him a shot.” If you then go accuse her of chasing her, you’re very likely to trigger an internal reaction in her of, “Ha… that’s exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was thinking,” and you cement the opposite reaction.
Use chase framing when it’s likely somewhat true, not when it’s likely the opposite of what’s true, to avoid causing the opposite effect of what you intended.
Chase
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