Being a Challenge to Women (& REALLY Turning Them On)


Back on the article about gym pickup, The Tool (one of our forum members as well) commented in asking about ways he could meet girls in the gym as a member of the staff, without overstepping professional boundaries:

It was 8 am and this girl wanted to Tan and she had another hour before she could tan (24 hour law) so she begged and i told her to wait another hour, she stayed in the locker room and came out an hour later, she asked If she could tan yet, I told her 5 more minutes and asked her "so what brings you to the gym this early on a saturday? working out before work or to flirt with the guy at the front desk? She said Haha I am not. I said "you totally are and now your lieing about it...jeeze." she said haha I guess I am. anyway jist of it I deepdived a bit and got her digits saying your a cool girl we should get some coffee sometime. she said sure and baddabing.

Anyway as a staff member things like this are risky for I can lose my job if it was ever found out or I made it awkward for a girl. So would you advise that those guys who are in fact the staff not try to pick up girls at their own gym?

My advice to The Tool was to use barriers to get these girls chasing him; it was, in effect, this: be a challenge to women.

being a challenge to women

In the article excerpt from my eBook entitled "How to Challenge Women," I discussed why you want to be challenging women, how it helps you, and what the potential risks are if you take it too far. And I offered a few strategies from the book on not being too little of a challenge.

But what about really being a challenge to women? Is it possible to use conversation and communication to set things up so that women are pursuing you, regardless of whether they were or weren't at first?

Sure, it's absolutely possible.

And, it's a heck of a lot easier than you might think.


being a challenge to women

"Why does she keep going for guys who don't treat her right?" says the nice guy to his friend, struggling to understand why that girl he likes keeps falling for bad boys despite the fact that he's right there and would gladly give her everything she says she wants. "Why can't she see I'd do ANYTHING for her? I'd give her exactly what she says she wants!"

My guess is that anywhere from 60% to 80% of men in the Western world fall into the "nice guy" category these days. These are the men who'd happily do whatever it is women wanted to be with them - if only they could figure out what women wanted!

But they can't. So, they just keep trying to do EVERYTHING for women, and being confounded when women choose someone else over them.

But women don't want a man who'll do everything for them.

Quite to the contrary.

Women want men that they must work for.

To quote Bogg's and Ray's research on "The Heterosexual Appeal of Socially Marginal Men" again:

Surveyed women consistently specify preferences for egalitarian dates and/or mates. A common perception is that many of these same women often select consorts who are inscrutable, assertive, and controlling, ultimately bemoaning their choices. Dominance has been experimentally shown to provide initial attraction advantages. The Byronic Hero, a venerable literary model, embraces protagonists who possess extraordinary masculine traits that include dominance but also multiple personal flaws. Byronic Heroes, easily identified and plentiful in popular fiction, appear strongly to resonate with youthful audiences and provide alluring portrayals of heterosexual relations. In a classroom survey employing slide images of paired apparel models and a blind date scenario, collegiate women slightly but significantly preferred models independently judged to project Byronic traits over equally handsome men who appeared affable and conventional. Subject comments on Byronic models uniquely included allusions to sexual and mysterious/rebellious attributes. It was concluded that projections of Byronic masculinity provide initial advantages in the securing of heterosexual liaisons.

Even sitting in a classroom, without having so much as met the men, only looking at images of them, women still rated as more attractive the men with the bad boy-esque "flaws" than the equally attractive "flawless" men.

Why? Why is imperfect rated as more perfect than perfect?

If you ask me, there's one reason, and one reason only:

Attainability.


Attainability, Value, and Attraction

Think of attainability as a lens through which your value is viewed:

  • Too much attainability, and your value becomes too easy to see, and thus not very exciting. There's no novelty of discovering anything new, and a girl can easily reach in and grab whatever she wants. There's no challenge.

  • Too little attainability, and your value becomes too murky, as if you've intentionally obfuscated it. She feels like you're playing with her, or out of her league. You're too unattainable, and she auto-rejects.

  • Just right attainability, and she can see enough of your value to feel like you aren't toying around with her, and enough to intrigue her, but there's also enough murkiness on the lens that she can't really see anything, and now she's struggling to wipe away the murk. She's curious; her interest is piqued. She feels like she can get what's behind that lens, but she needs to know what that is, first. Now she's interested... she's desirous... and she's in pursuit.

Obviously, it'd be much better if your attainability isn't too high (no challenge), and isn't too low (auto-rejection), but instead is just right (the perfect balance of attainable and challenging).

And these men with Byronic traits tend to be exactly that.

If you had to put each of the following three boxes from above, who'd go in which box?

  • Kyle, a great guy who goes out of his way to do whatever women ask of him. He drives female friends around town, helps them with their projects, and is ready for dinner, parties, or going out on a moment's notice. Kyle frequently finds himself wishing he had more success with women, but he believes that if he just keeps spending time around them and being as helpful as possible, at some point he's bound to start finding success.

  • Clive, a perfect example of an all-around great guy. Clive's in great shape, he's friendly, smart, charming, fun, and straightforward. He's one of those guys you feel like Mother Nature blessed with unfair advantages in just about every department. Clive doesn't have any great hidden secrets or a "damaged soul;" his life, rather, is an open book, and he's happy to let anyone who wants to read it.

  • Flip, an attractive guy with a checkered past. Flip's perhaps not what you'd consider naturally good looking, but he has a certain edge about him that you notice the moment you first meet him. Flip has his own rugged style about him, an air of devil may care, and a tendency to shrug off insults, challengers, and those wishing him ill-will like beads of sweat. Flip's developed charisma about himself over the years, and when he steps in the room everyone notices - and wonders what, exactly, his story is.

That's right - Kyle's the nice guy who's too attainable and no challenge for women at all.

Clive's the guy who's too good to be true and out of the leagues of most girls. He's also not all that interesting, mysterious, or captivating, so he paradoxically struggles to be seen as a lover despite his laundry list of good qualities.

Flip, on the other hand, is just right; he's attractive enough that women want to get to know more about him, mysterious enough that they never really feel they've found out everything there is of interest about him, and just attainable enough, due to his flaws and vulnerabilities, that girls feel like they can get him.

Here's this perfectly imperfect man, with imperfections that must be overcome. The girl needs to "save" this guy from his checkered past and his flaws.

He's the bad boy that nice guys sit there and fume over the girls going crazy for.


Working for Love

being a challenge to womenWe know that women want men they have to work for. And they need men who are in that "just right" range of attainability that puts men almost out of reach... but not quite.

A big part of being maximally attractive to women is being just attainable enough.

That is to say, you want to be an achievable goal to women (and not completely out of a girl's league), while still being a challenge to women enough that it doesn't feel like a shoe-in to get you.

Why do women value men they have to work for more highly? In fact, it's true of ALL humans (and mammals, for that matter): the harder we have to work for something, generally speaking, the more highly we value it.

Imagine I showed you into my house and pointed out two coffee mugs sitting there on a cabinet overlooking the den. One mug, I explained, I'd spent years scouring shops and listings for in vain, before finally having a friend locate one for me in a remote part of Canada. I'd had it shipped out here from there. The other mug, I told you, I'd won at a raffle at some party I'd gone to.

Which mug would you assume is more valuable? Almost certainly the first, right?

Yet, I haven't told you anything about either mug's value. I haven't said what they're made of, if they have any special designs, what their retail market prices are. You just know that one mug I worked really hard for, and the other I didn't, and you assume the one I worked hard for must be a lot more valuable.

The amount of effort put into attaining something factors in directly to how high we calculate its value.

This is why, among collector's objects (coins, stamps, trading cards, etc.), the most valuable items are quite often the rarest objects. It isn't any special property of the object itself that makes it so valuable... it's the level of difficulty in acquiring it.

Same deal with your value as a man. If there are a million other nice guys in town just like you... that makes you not so rare.

But if you're the Byronic male, attractive but flawed, rare and difficult to get, preselected and competed over by women... suddenly you start to look a lot more valuable.

So how do you start being a challenge to women and getting them working to acquire you? How do you know how to challenge enough, and when you've challenged too much? And what do you say - and do - to make yourself into that kind of challenge women want so much?


being a challenge to women

To be a proper challenge to women, you need a handful of things:

  1. To be able to read whether a woman sees you as too much or too little challenge
  2. To be able to both pull away and push ahead
  3. To be able to inspire women to chase

I'm going to cover each of these sections below.


Reading Your Attainability

If you start dialing down how much of a challenge you are when you already aren't much of a challenge, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot nice guy style by making yourself far too attainable (and far too uninteresting).

On the other hand, if you start ratcheting up how challenging you are when you already seem largely out of reach, you're going to throw girls into auto-rejection and soon find out what "bitterness" tastes like coming from women scorned.

Thus, one of the most important abilities for being able to challenge women properly is the ability to read where your attainability is at with any given girl.

Can't you just learn the right things to say and do and say and do those same things with every girl and you'll be fine?

No... because every woman you meet is going to view you differently and place you somewhere else on her sliding scale of attainability.

For instance:

  • You might meet some ugly girl out at a bar, and she considers you way out of her league, auto-rejects before you even say hello, and the moment you start talking to her she treats you like the scum of the Earth.

  • Next, you may meet some beautiful girl, who also considers you out of her league, and she acts cold and aloof, fearing rejection.

  • After her, you meet an ordinary girl surrounded by loads of male fans and friends, and she sees you and automatically pegs you in her mind as another probable fan, and immediately writes you off as "no challenge." She's very nice and polite to you, because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings - after all, it must suck never being able to be with someone as amazing as her.

Right there alone, you have two women whose league you're out of - one ugly, and one beautiful - and one who thinks she's out of YOUR league - an ordinary girl with a lot of "just friends" male worshippers and emotional validators.

And you can't go just off of looks, or any other characteristic - one girl might think you're out of her league, and the next girl who looks exactly like her may think you don't have a shot in hell with her, while the next girl after that who looks exactly like those first two girls may think you're just perfect for her.

You can't go off appearances. You need to be able to read and adjust on the fly.

How do you read attainability? You look for:

  • Aloofness: if women are acting distant and uninterested to you.
  • Compliance: if women are complying when you ask for investment.
  • Enthusiasm: if women are acting excited and interested to be talking to you.
  • Rudeness: if women are acting spiteful and catty toward you.

If you need to remember those when you're out meeting women, just think "ACER" - aloofness, compliance, enthusiasm, rudeness.

Aloofness is bad (you want less of it), compliance is good (you want more of it), enthusiasm is good (you want more of it), and rudeness is bad (you want less of it).

How do you know where your attainability falls with any given girl? Use ACER. If a girl is:

  • Aloof +
  • Compliant -
  • Enthusiastic -
  • Rude +

... she's in auto-rejection or close to it, and you seem unattainable.

If she's:

  • Aloof -
  • Compliant -
  • Enthusiastic -
  • Rude -

... you're in "no challenge" land and in real danger of entering the friend zone.

If she's:

  • Aloof -
  • Compliant +
  • Enthusiastic +
  • Rude -

... you're exactly where you need to be with her, where she's neither aloof nor rude, but IS both compliant and enthusiastic about being with you and talking with you.


Being a Challenge to Women (and Being Less of One)

Once you know where you stand on attainability, you've either got to be more of a challenge... or less of one.

So:

  • If your attainability could use a little reducing, be a challenge
  • If your attainability needs to be boosted, be less of a challenge
  • If your attainability is perfect, keep doing what you're doing

Much of the time, your attainability is going to be a little off, since you're approaching women and that's an uncommon thing to do. The very nature of approaching means you're going out on a limb and making it clear that you're interested; you may come across as the one who's chasing, or you may come across as someone who doesn't see her as a human being and merely as a sex object.

It's common to approach women and have them be somewhat aloof at first. This is actually auto-rejection, not no-challenge. They don't know you from Jack, assume you're just another guy who doesn't care about them and is only trying to get in their pants, and feel disgusted thinking how impersonally you're treating them.

So, you respond by being equally aloof - you:

  • Act aloof not long after opening / you slow open
  • Give girls the bored look when they act aloof
  • Don't chase and don't get involved

This is not how normal men behave after the approach, and it intrigues most women into wondering if you aren't actually different. They'll begin viewing you as a person and not some stereotypical man who's chasing sex, and your attainability goes up.

They begin to warm up to you and ask you questions and show interest.

What about the opposite though? The girl you approach who's NOT rude or aloof, but also doesn't seem super excited to talk to you and doesn't give you investment when you ask for it? This girl views you as not very challenging, for whatever reason.

Could be the case you came in too energetic and not adhering to the Law of Least Effort. Could be you came across as nervous or overly friendly or not a very sexy man.

It's worth knowing the "why" for training and perfecting purposes, but for immediate purposes of troubleshooting attainability, it doesn't matter. All that DOES matter is that you start being a challenge with this girl.

Acting aloof here doesn't work very well. When you try being aloof with a girl who already sees you as "no challenge," it doesn't inspire chasing; it gets viewed as "cute" or "pouty."

Instead, you must be directly challenging, e.g.:

You can best think of it this way:

  • When a girl is cool, rude, and/or aloof with you, tone it down with her, be calm, minimize investment, and get her comfortable around you with you being very chill, relaxed, and not pressuring her or asking for anything out of her at all to let your attainability rebound. Think of this as "taking the pressure off."

  • When a girl is friendly, uninterested, and/or nice with you, turn up the heat, get more demanding with her, really grill and probe her on her background, dreams, and motivations, suggest that she's pursuing you, and escalate investment from her to shift yourself out of being too attainable. Think of this as "putting the pressure on."

You can use these challenge "gear shifts" to rapidly change how women see you and make them alter their perceptions of your attainability and how difficult it is to get what they want from you.


Inspiring Women to Chase

Once you've repaired attainability and you've got women feeling like you're just within reach, how do you then get them pursuing you?

The secret is being a challenge to women in a few specific ways that encourage them to chase.

Our three tools for doing this are:

  1. Using barriers
  2. Creating scarcity
  3. Applying time limits

They work as follows:


#1: Using Barriers

being a challenge to womenA "barrier," in seduction terminology, is a not-insurmountable obstacle that you employ to get women to pursue you. These are best used when you're in a situation that it's easier for the woman to deal with herself.

For instance, you might be invite a girl home, but she's surrounded by friends and you know if you ask her plainly and simply to accompany you back, it's going to be a problem. So, instead of doing so, you say:

“You know, I'd really love to invite you somewhere alone with me where it'd be just the two of us, and we could have drinks and talk and hang out just us. It's too bad all your friends are around.”

What this does is to:

  • Tell her what you'd like to do to her / with her

  • Set a barrier up that stands in the way of this happening

  • Communicate to her exactly what she needs to do to make it happen

This is far more effective than simply saying, "I'd like to take you home," because it follows up with, "But I can't," then gives the girl an action to take if she'd like to make it happen.

If she takes that action, and finds a way for the two of you to leave together despite her friends (in this example), she's buying in and committing to what the two of you will do together.

Then, no longer is this simply what YOU want to do... but it's what BOTH of you want to do.

Obviously, you need well-balanced attainability mixed with attraction and a fair amount of investment already for barriers to work - they won't inspire women to action early on when they're still on the fence about you. Girls need to be excited about and ready to take whatever the next step proposed by the barrier is in order to take it.


#2: Creating Scarcity

Creating scarcity is best done by contrasting yourself with others.

You never want to insult other men or other people, or it looks like you're trying to take out the competition; but a few offhand remarks like, "Most guys are weak," or, "Most people don't really know what they want," allow women to more clearly recognize the things about you that set you apart.

Of course, this only works if these traits actually set you apart. If you say, "Most guys are weak," but you don't exactly seem the pinnacle of strength and dominance yourself, well, she's going to shrug her eyebrows as if to say, "Huh?"

But if you actually are the opposite of the trait you point most people out as having, women recognize this and instantly become a lot more aware of your scarcity.

You can show how impressive you are night and day, but if you never point it out by contrasting it with what almost everyone else is doing and being, the contrast never fully registers.

Make it register by making a few points.

(Obviously, if your whole conversation is, "Most people are this," and, "Most people are that," you're going to wear that one out pretty fast. Use it sparingly to get the right level of contrast running without overdoing it)


#3: Applying Time Limits

Anything that reduces your availability or the probably time window a girl thinks she has to land you works here.

Most men try to make themselves infinitely available to women. "I will be right here, waiting for you!" go the song lyrics. A lot of popular music contain lyrics like that. The guy's so reliable that he's just going to WAIT for her... how romantic!

Your lyrics will be more like, "Take it or leave it, babe... I ain't got time to waste."

Why?

Imagine two girls:

  • Girl A tells you, "I'll wait for you as long as you need! You just call me or text me anytime!"

  • Girl B tells you, "I like you, and I want to be with you. But I'm not waiting, so choose."

Which girl has your respect, and which girl are you most likely to actually want, desire, and date? Girl B by a landslide... not even close.

Why's it work this way? Well, we tend to intuit that the more valuable a person's time is, the more valuable the person himself is.

So, if your time is so value-poor that you're willing to wait around for a girl, or spend a lot of time pursuing her, then you must be value poor as well.

Ouch.

How do you apply time limits then, to get around being that sad little man who's perpetually available?

You can do this with:

  • Laser focus on the person you're talking to. Truly busy people tend to be some of the most focused you'll meet. But wouldn't you expect busy people to be distracted? In some things, occasionally, yes; but with socializing, if someone lets others interrupt and distract him, he's simply communicating poor control of his time and attention. You can get his attention any time, simply by interrupting him and asking for it. If you're zeroed in on whomever you're talking to though, girls will know they can't get your attention again simply by breaking your circle, and will know they need to use what time they have with you to advance things.

  • Not being available for social functions. Women will sometimes test you out to see if you'll be a good fit for their friend zones by inviting you to accompany them to social functions. You should always politely turn these down. Make it clear that the only time you have available for them is one-on-one time... don't waste time being a part of their group.

  • Slow correspondence response times. Taking a little while to respond back to phone calls and text messages helps to establish some scarcity. Not responding to emails and Facebook messages and texts and other things some of the time (or much of the time) will do this as well. When you're actually truly very busy, you'll do this naturally anyway. When you're not there yet though, you can still slow down your responses so as not to seem overeager.

  • Telling women you're moving out of town or not sticking around. If this isn't the case with you, obviously, you can't really use it, but if you're leaving town even in a year or so, letting women know in conversation that you won't be around forever creates some time limits for things to happen in.

One thing I don't advocate is the "false time constraint," where you tell a girl soon after opening her that you've got to be going soon. Saying this presumes that the girl doesn't want you there and wants you out of her hair; it's used to "buy you some time" to win her over.

But if you're hanging around meeting women who don't want you around... you're doing things wrong.

Skip the FTCs and focus in stead on being less available and being zeroed-in on girls when you are available. Make your time quality time, and limited quality time.

This is how you create the nonverbal feel of someone in high demand, and really get girls chasing after you.


What's Being a Challenge to Women All About?

Some people might tell you this is about "playing a game" or "seducing her."

Far from it.

Being a challenge is about flirting and intrigue. It's not a game; it's part of human mating rituals. Women are attracted to men who challenge them; men who do not challenge them don't switch on the mating dance (and then these men get frustrated that women don't want them and complain about how women go for all these "bad guys").

Is it a game if a man tells a woman he'd like to kiss her passionately, it's just too bad there are so many people around? No. He's flirting and telling her what she needs to do on her end (express interest; help get alone with him) if she wants the same thing he does.

Nor is it a game for a man to be zeroed in on women, or taking a while to respond to messages (if he's genuinely busy, that is; you might consider it a game if he isn't, though).

It's also NOT a game to point out that you are not like most people.

Remember, correcting attainability and being a challenge is about:

  1. Reading attainability (too high, too low, or just right?)
  2. Being a challenge, or less of a challenge (putting pressure on or taking it off)
  3. Inspiring women to chase (using barriers, scarcity, and time limits)

Keeping a close bead on attainability, monitoring it, reading it, and keeping it balanced with challenging women is how you keep intrigue up, auto-rejection down, and get girls going with you - and hordes of nice guys wondering why women keep pairing off with "bad boys" like you.

Ciao,
Chase Amante

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Comments

studentofthegame's picture

sex and high school


Hi chase I'm in high school and I now have a detailed process on getting girls, moving faster,getting num bers etc.but when it comes to sex I have a problem for one I don't have an apartment where can take the girl to and I live with my parents and siblings.so I am confused on how can bed women fast being in this pickle.I don't want a case where they might walk in on me or something which could seriously hurt my Morale.

Chase Amante's picture

Sex Without a Bed

Author

Hey Student,

It's very possible to still take girls to bed even if you can't take them to bed where you live.

See this article for some ideas on how to handle your logistics outside of bringing girls back to your folks' place:

Book Excerpts: Get Girls in Bed (Without a Bed)

Chase

Jack's picture

Interested?


Studentofthegame, I am in high school as well. Would you mind contacting me? Would mean a lot! I have been looking to perfect a process as I am I high school to take into account girls not willing to have sex so soon and social issues as well. Thanks get back to me!

Balla's picture

A few questions


Hey chase just have a few questions
1.How can I make my mind clear and stop planning things out with expectations? The cat gets my tounge when I approach and I get upset when things dont go my way with a girl. How do I let go and go with the flow?
2.I've been applying what you wrote from the get taken seriously article, but guess I haven't gotten it down all the way because girls still play games. Should I be more aggressive with them and more demanding?
3. Don't all girls think that you want sex and if they didnt wouldn't you be in the friend zone?
4. Will your programs be free when you join the membership?

Peace,
Balla

Chase Amante's picture

Re: A few questions

Author

Hey Balla,

Getting your mind to clear is something you can achieve by working on "mindfulness;" that is, training your inner eye to turn its sight onto your thoughts, and out onto the present world around you. By focusing your thoughts solely on what's happening right now in this given moment (e.g., exactly what thoughts you're feeling, emotions you're experiencing, and what's happening in the environment around you this instant), you turn off the conscious element of the prediction engine of your brain and simply experience what's happening around you.

Hard to say on the girls playing games. If these are still the same girls from the past, yeah, they're just going to keep doing that. It's very, very difficult to turn things around with women who already have set opinions of you.

On sex - no, not all women assume you want sex! This is a common misconception of a lot of new guys - they think they should play things neutrally to disabuse women of the notion that they're just after sex. But if a man isn't exuding sex, women will assume he isn't turned on or interested.

As for programs, they'll be the same price they always were!

Cheers,
Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hi Chase, While i was reading


Hi Chase,

While i was reading this article i started to wonder if you have any notes on flight attendant game and what kind of barriers can you use on a plane if any

Chase Amante's picture

Flight Attendants

Author

Hi Anon,

Flight attendants can be a little difficult to meet on-plane, simply because they're in work mode and they're accustomed to men hitting on them there anyway.

I've picked up flight attendants in nightclubs, but I haven't really sat and tried to get a method down for it on a plane simply because of the logistical difficulty. I've had friends pick up flight attendants on their ways out of planes though, setting up dates and grabbing numbers while waiting for the rest of the passengers to deplane. My TOP recommendation would be to find out where the flight attendants hang out in your city (there's typically one or two bars that flight personnel gather at) and focus on meeting them there, simply to give yourself more time to work and a more social setting to work in.

If you're set on meeting attendants on planes, you'll need to come up with some sort of pattern interrupt. I'd probably use a direct opener so she knows exactly what you're about and then escalate things quickly with pointed, personal questions on her if she's receptive to the opener. Then most likely find out how much time she has in the city you're landing in, or if she ever has layovers there. Swap cells and plan to meet.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Byronic


I have several girls interested in me primarily because of my flaws, and they have told me to my face that I am imperfectly perfect. I am interested in this Byronic concept. Do you try to adapt byronic traits? And can you do a post on them?
Great article btw

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Byronic

Author

Hey Anon,

Yeah, it's a neat topic. I have adopted Byron-esque qualities, yes.

We had another commenter on here asking for a post on vulnerabilities, and I think this would tie in nicely on that. So I'll probably look to do a post that ties in attractive vulnerabilities and Byronic flaws, since they're largely one and the same.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Time Limit/Moving Slow?


I will be moving out of the country after I graduate from college in 5 months and I recently told that to girl that I have been dating. She responded by starting to cry, and then saying she now wanted to move slow, that she didn't want to get too attached emotionally, but that she would be there with me all the way until I went to the airport.I was a little taken back, didn't expect her to say that of all things, so I mustered up a "look into my eyes" , so I just looked into her eyes with a deep gaze and I came closer to her face and we started to kiss. Did that for a good 5 minutes, with a little whispering in the middle, and parted ways for the evening. We both live with our parents, so moving her to my place, which would be ideal for such a conversation, was not possible. I am definitely not in the friend zone, but I've now disqualified myself for the boyfriend role.

PROBLEM: she's shy (at least when sober... have avoided party dates like the second coming of the bubonic plague thanks to GirlsChase), and I've tried to escalate beyond touching/kissing, but no go. So I'm not really in the lover role, am I?

She always shys away or giggles, killing the tension when I try to sexually escelate, whether it be in a park or in my car. I don't want to work too hard, crossing that fine line where aggressive becomes unwanted/creepy touching. Wouldn't be surprised if this girl has only slept with 1 or 2 different guys before. Comes from a somewhat religious family... and so on.

I seem to be in a fourth zone: the guy who is exactly like a boyfriend, super high attraction level, quite romantic, but a little safe and predictable, all lacking the high important title of boyfriend. We've been moving slow, but not on my wishes, on hers. She keeps citing not wanting emotional attachment, but she's obviously attached to me a great deal, then we just act like boyfriend and girlfriend without the titles. I feel like the only way to progress with this girl sexually would be to have a active relationship- otherwise, for whatever reason, she's not giving into sex. Just my reading.

All the meanwhile, I like her a lot, but I've started to make myself more scarse, not care as much, and see other girls because I'm not locking myself into that. Abundance mentality for life.

Thoughts on this "fourth zone", as I'm starting to call it with my buddies? Or how to salvage things with this girl, if it's not a lost cause?

Chase Amante's picture

Early Boyfriend

Author

Hi Anon,

I actually have an old article on this phenomenon - what you and your buddies call the "fourth zone," I call being the "early boyfriend." Here's the article:

The Early Boyfriend: Why It's a Bad Idea

Unfortunately, there's not much you can do to get around that other than start disconnecting your value from her. You can also have a sit down and talk with her, and simply be honest with her, telling her, "Look, I really like you. A LOT. But we do everything a boyfriend and girlfriend do together except actually make love, and it's destroying me. I can't be in a sexless relationship anymore... I want to be with you, but you don't want to be with me. I understand that, but I can't do it anymore. I can't spend time with you anymore; it's simply too painful."

At that point, she's going to decide: either that, okay, she DOES want to sleep with you... or, no, she still doesn't want to, and she'll say goodbye.

You can't be mean, can't be bitter, you've got to be sad and you've got to let her know why and let her know it's no fault of hers. Then cut her off if she won't be with you.

Sometimes even if she won't sleep with you at first, being away from you will make her realize that she actually DOES want to be around you enough that she's willing to sleep with you to not lose you / retain you as her boyfriend and lover. Or she may decide she's better off without you.

Either way, you won't be stuck in limbo anymore - either she'll be yours, or you'll be free.

Chase

Maxz's picture

Being Challenging.


Nice gem here Chase on being a challenge.

I had a question for you. I recently texted a girl I wanted to sleep with a message saying I was thinking of her after seeing her at a function. Does that show the guy is no challenge if he is sending the girl a thinking of you message? Will love a reply on this one. Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Thinking of You?

Author

Hi Maxz,

It depends on how she views your status relative to hers. If she views you as roughly equivalent to her in value and status, then even if she's going nuts over you, showing her this much affection when she isn't your lover yet assures her that she has too much sway over you, and immediately ups the stakes for you to become her lover. Basically, it takes whatever amount of work you'd need to do to bed her and double or triples it. Still possible, but it'll be a lot more grueling.

There's another alternative, however: if you're so much higher in value than her that she'd normally consider you far out of her league and the very notion of you thinking of her makes her laugh (i.e., she considers it playful teasing), you're okay. Think of how a girl would feel if she got a, "Hey, I was just thinking about you," message from a rock star after he saw her. She'd laugh, knowing that rock star sleeps with a lot of girls and that he's sending her some playful sexual banter (the intimation here is, because he's such a sexual guy, he's thinking of her sexually).

Essentially, if she knows that there is NO WAY on Earth that you're thinking about her longingly and romantically, you're fine. If she thinks that's even the slightest possibility though, it's very damaging to your cause, and you'll want to not do it with future girls.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Badboy look VS James Bond look


Chase, my question is regarding style of dress and the perception they give off.

Take for example the cliche bad boy look. Tight black shirt, biker jacket, black boots, spiked hair, ect... You get the point.

Next take the "James Bond" look. Parted hair, wearing nice things such as sweater vest and Blazers with nice black shoes.

Will dressing in the James Bond style make me look too "safe" and make girls automatically slot me into a nice guy category?

I'm sure that a mans attitude/personality counts more. For example, if the bad boy acts like a little girl most girls will find him unattractive. If the James Bond looking guy is, well... like James Bond, then women will find him attractive.

However, do you think I'm making it harder on myself by dressing more "safe" than dressing like a bad boy?

Thanks Chase!

Chase Amante's picture

Clothes vs. Vibe

Author

Hey Anon,

That's a real question of clothes vs. vibe.

i.e., James Bond has a very bad boy-ish vibe, so he can get away with being in a suit. Put a guy who's not quite as rakish in a suit, and he just looks polished and nice.

You can think of clothes as at first helping to compensate for a lack of a vibe - e.g., the guy who's a little too nice still, so he throws on a leather jacket to give him some edge.

Later, when your vibe is killer, you can use them to actually take edge OFF, further enhancing the vibe. e.g., James Bond in a suit instead of a leather jacket. The nice clothes stand out more because they're adorning a man who so obviously exudes power and confidence.

So, I'd say if your vibe needs some accentuation still, err on the side of badder clothing. Once your vibe is VERY bad boy, start moving toward nicer clothes to offset that and get contrast going on.

Chase

The Tool's picture

excellent advice.


Excellent read, Your advice on my question on the gym post has been monumental. It has immensially upped my game because of the challenges ive been implamenting. People definately should take this one to heart it is in fact one of the larget game changers. Becuase of the challenge, it makes women invest which allows you to gauge interest.

in some cases it is better to recieve more than to give ;)

Cheers, The Tool

Chase Amante's picture

Re: excellent advice.

Author

Howdy Tool,

Extremely cool to hear you've been using challenges and barriers and reaping some dividends from them. They're strong stuff once you're already generating interest with women.

You're very right - they can help you tak investing to the next level, and serve as a solid gauge to interest as well. Strong voodoo, this.

Chase

Vaughn 's picture

Hello Chase I haven't seen


Hello Chase I haven't seen you in a few days. I wanted to just ask one question but I read the comments so I wanted to ask a few more.
My first one was my own which is, Chase it is so hard for me to get sex and to get these girls to comply, I dont know what else to say man it's just driving me crazy that I can't get one girl I like to sleep with after learning all your stuff. What am I doing wrong chase, what do I have to do to get rid of this barrier from me getting sex? I was just thinking of telling them I want sex and stop being indirect. Tell me what I have to do.

Second one is what I got from Balla's comment response from you. How do you change girls opinions about you and see you as a guy they want to sleep with? I'm mostly talking about girls who know your very sexual but you havent slept with.

Third one was from maxz, when he wrote about thinking of a girl, my question is fantasizing about girls. I'm not putting them on a pedestal but whenever I feel I'm close to getting a girl or I'm talking to a girl I like i think of having a romantic time with them I think about having sex with them even kids with them. Im not thinking of one girl like this, I'm thinking of every girl that's attractive to me like this. Its like your article about cant stop thinking about her where you say get more girls but my problem is when i get a new girl i think about her then i go to another and think about her and on and on. How can i stop this cycle. Thank you!!!!

Chase Amante's picture

Becoming a Sexual Man / Stopping Fantasizing

Author

Hey Vaughn,

I have an inkling that your third point is contributing to your first two.

When a guy lets his thoughts run rampant and he starts getting fantasies going on about girls, this tends to make him hesitant and start treating girls with kid gloves. He won't move fast enough, won't demand investment from girls, and won't treat them the way a man with lots of options will. He effectively gives off loud, clear signals to women that he isn't a guy with man options, and kills a lot of his attraction.

Even if you don't have much of a sexual vibe down yet, if you're meeting new women often and following a process that revolves around moving girls and keeping things progressing forward in your interactions, you should be getting dates and taking girls home at least occasionally. Are you meeting 30 to 40 new women a week at least and improving your approach with them as you are?

On the mental thing, you've really just got to train yourself not to think about women you have any intentions of dating. The instant you fantasize about a girl as being something important to you your goose is cooked, and you'll start acting funny / hesitant / unmanly around her. You've absolutely got to shift your thoughts off girls you like and onto something else, which is where having projects and passions you're working on come into play. It's no coincidence men with great passions also do well with women - they have a lot more to take up their thoughts, freeing them from overvaluing individual women.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

chase i need help man


Hey Chase I'm the type of the guy who creates attraction on the first sight.But then when I go on the dates looks like women losses interest or I would get stucked with texting.! Now I started reading your articles maybe a month ago and helped a lot especially with texting and setting up dates now It's really easy and almost every girl responds to text messages that I copied:) from you.! Also before I would never go for the sex on the first date I guess I'm typicall nice guy who is trying to change and deep diving I see a lot of improvements.But I get stuck when it comes to second date. I didn't manage yet to get sex on the first date. Here is the scenario in last 2 weeks I had 2 dates with 2 different girls.Anyways with second one we were kissing and everything but no sex she didn't want to go to my place.! Now for the 2nd date she responds to msg but says like she is busy we can see eachother only for short making excuses,if I want to see her to come where she lives which is 30min drive.I get stuck on 2nd date how to escalate Chase.Should I use more phone calls request more investment and how to react when she requests investment from me. Like to come where she lives and we can have short lunch.Thanks.!

Chase Amante's picture

Escalation Windows

Author

Hi Anon,

Wonderful to hear you're seeing some progress, man. Sounds like you've made some great headway from the days when women were losing interest quickly!

Unfortunately with the girl in question in this comment, it looks like you ran into an escalation window - see her:

Escalation Windows

Essentially, once you start kissing a girl, you've opened the escalation window to sex, and much of the time if you don't have sex relatively shortly thereafter (within a few hours, and sometimes much less... typically, it needs to be sometime before the mood is broken), the window closes, the girl backward rationalizes that she wasn't that interested in you and that's why the two of you didn't get together, and things are over. That's why it's better not to kiss until you have a girl alone with you.

There's not much to say here except save kissing until you're alone with her for future girls, and keep getting out there and meeting new girls. You'll get it down, don't worry.

Chase

M's picture

Clarification


Hi Chase,

I seem to have gotten some of my understanding of this reversed.

On deep diving: on the one hand, you're showing interest in her and in getting to know her well, which seems to raise your attainability, and on the other hand, you're "grilling" her and not letting her get away with shallow or unsatisfactory answers, which seems to lower your attainability (as you stated in this article). I guess the grilling part "wins" if you do it properly, so that's why you put it in the decreasing attainability section.

On being chill, cool, and undemanding: doesn't this make you appear that you're not trying too hard to get her, so it would decrease your attainability? I guess the "undemanding" part is what you meant to be important here, which would put her at ease and increase your attainability.

One other question: could you please write a post sometime on how to be non-judgmental and more constructive and encouraging? Many times I find myself thinking during a conversation, "Hmm, your career path/school/etc. sounds pretty dismal...why are you so unambitious? Not really sure what I can say that would be both encouraging and true." The conversation of course shuts down pretty fast after that. But I know that there IS something both encouraging and true I could say, and if I didn't have that thought in the way, I would probably be able to relate to the person and think to say it.

Best,
M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Clarification

Author

Hey M,

Yes, you're exactly right: once you're into deep diving, you're asking the girl to qualify and explain herself to you, which she won't do if she's close to auto-rejection. Instead she'll just ignore this, and you'll get negative compliance. Deep diving does bring an attainability boost, but only after the girl shares about herself and sees that you understand and relate, and she typically won't do this if she's too close to auto-rejection.You're basically letting things cool off and calm down until she's ready for deep diving - and once you can get that going, you're set.

The post on being non-judgmental - yes, that'd be a good one. I've been meaning to write one for sometime, actually - just for good measure, I've added it to the list (which I just realized I didn't have it on before).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Why do women want to work...


Why do women want to work to get a man...if they have so much choice with men why make the conscious decision to choose to put in more work to get someone rather than not having to work as hard(assuming a dominant sexy man wants to make life relatively easy for her)? Maybe I'm lazy, but this is certainly not the path of least resistance.

Chase Amante's picture

Why Do Women Like Challenges?

Author

Hi Anon,

For exactly the same reason that men don't fall in love with the women who throw themselves at them (calling these girls "sluts" and treating them disrespectfully and disdainfully), but DO fall in love with the one girl they cannot get (check out the very long comments section at the end of "Can't Stop Thinking About Her? Here's Why You Need to Meet More Girls").

The human brain is wired to view things that are difficult to get as more valuable, because they typically are. A man who challenges women is one who isn't needy (which means he gets girls), is comfortable with women (which means he gets girls), and prompts them to begin investing in him (which signals to them that he must be valuable for them to invest as they are).

Women select mates based on hard-coded genetic value. Essentially, they want men who are good with women, because men who are good with women will give them sons who are good with women, and these sons will give them the best chance of spreading their genetic legacy far and wide. This measure reduces in importance as they age and begin looking to settle down; at that point, they become more willing to "settle;" that is, to accept men who aren't quite as challenging (or desirable). That's the age they begin to declare that they're "tired of the games" (that they loved so much when they were younger).

That's the long answer. The short answer is, men who are a challenge to the right extent excite, thrill, tantalize, and scintillate women into action in ways that men who are not a challenge simply do not.

It's like the difference between playing a video game that's really, really easy to beat, and one that's just challenging enough that you can almost beat it but keep losing at the last moment. You REALLY want to beat that latter one... but the former one, well... it's kind of a bore.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

The poker face


Are pretty and in-demand women really afraid of rejection? I mean if every time they go out they have potential suitors trying to get into their pants don’t they overtime develop a sense of superiority? I know I would naturally if I had hundreds of women coming up to me all the time.

Anyway, I’ve tried dating such women, and a pattern I recognized that I haven’t devised a solution to yet is that they usually take the “poker face” approach to dating. In the beginning, they give no compliments other than one or two, and certainly they give no indication that they care about you other than by using non-verbals to hint that they might care. Some real CIA shit that seems to be designed to have me asking "Does she like me or not?" All the while deep-down they do feel strong emotions but they’d never say anything. It’s kinda like they withhold this info in a power-play attempt because they fear that my ego would get inflated by their strong affections for me.

This kinda behavior confuses me, and I’m not certain as to how to act with such women. And make them chase. But I want to LEARN! I assume attraction and proceed accordingly, but I've found that they usually never ever return the compliments unless directly asked "what do you think about me." I've even had one girl say she doesn't inflate guys' egos to which I responded I wasn't fishing for a compliment, for all I know you could think my head is too big for my body, it's just a question. She still took this question as a sign of insecurity and well we know how that goes. Now it's not that I am needy and want compliments from women, but it's my belief that if you have gone on couple dates and you really like someone and that you want to keep around, you’d treat them special and say and do things you wouldn't do for everyone else. Clearly you hold your own beliefs and stay assertive, but strive to keep things zen and interesting. During the dating phase shouldn't you act in a way that would entice the other person and have them say "hmm, if I keep them around, I'd definitely get some good treatment!" instead of obfuscating yourself and making them wonder "do they like me?"

Yet in my experience, these poker-face women don’t engage in charming behavior until you've won them over. No special treatment, minimal amounts of compliments, obfuscation of their intentions and desire, never calling or texting first, nearly no investment at all. Why? And I am not the type of guy that chases. Nor do I have much of a desire to inspire someone like this to chase me. Although it would be kinda satisfying if I could. I usually give up and move on to something more interesting.

Recently however, in my quest to become a better seducer, instead of giving up right away, I've persisted and tried chase framing, kissing, touching, sexy eye contact, deep-diving, being more of a challenge etc, and while I've gotten decent results sexually on occasion, I've rarely ever had progress in getting the poker face to treat me well emotionally, without me having to call them out on it. I feel like I shouldn't have to tell or educate a woman on how to treat me well, that they should know. But it appears like the poker-face doesn't think too much about how I feel by her treatment (or lack thereof), rather instead she thinks more about how I make HER feel. I can't confirm, but it's my hypothesis. A relationship of any-kind is a two-way street and both parties must get emotional satisfaction otherwise what's the point.

Here in this article you suggest a solution to my problems is to inspire women to chase... instead of calling them out on their behavior. But if a girl really likes you, and knows how to treat a man well, shouldn't this inspiration to treat you like a king (once you have the characteristics she seeks) occur almost spontaneously? There has to be an approach to dealing with the “poker-face” to make them chase. Any recommendations?

Ash's picture

Girls that don't chase


I'm in the same boat. I've met a girl recently that doesn't chase, she even tries to take control of texts etc. eg. Me: "When's good for you." Her: "I'll let you know if that's cool?"
Yet she'll still text after meeting saying had a great time and we should maybe do it again.

With this girl I'm left thinking, is she or isn't she interested... She won't give me the usual signs of interest, on the outside it seems she has no interest, doesn't flirt, doesn't laugh at everything I say etc, but, she will do things when I give her commands; try this on, slide down here a little. She will compliment and even ask when I'm free, but then she can rarely meet up because she is so busy.

She is very nonchalant in her messages when she asks to meet up ("was seeing if you still wanted to meet, cool if not") I don't know if she's not interested or if she's afraid of getting hurt. By the way we met when she approached me, and she was very forward, but after that night, before I even met her or text, POKER FACE, since then, POKER FACE.

In one of your articles you suggest sticking to the 80 20 rule and focus on the 20% of girls that are showing you interest but these days I don't find those girls as interesting, I like girls like this one that isn't obvious to me, more of a challenge. The thing is I don't know whether she is interested and how to get girls like that, is it just persistence in a non chasing type way?

I've tried to move things quickly, first time we were in underwear but she wouldn't go further because she said she wasn't like that. Second time we never got past making out and taking her top off.

Is there something else we should be doing with girls that have as the poster above says, POKER FACES

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Girls that don't chase

Author

Hey Ash,

Sounds like this girl IS chasing, in her own subtle way. She's messaging you to meet up... that's a good sign, and that's chasing!

Sometimes you can accidentally chase when a girl's already chasing you, and it causes a total reversal of the chase dynamic where she's now running and you're now chasing. It happens. I usually write these girls off as girls I messed up with, take note of the lesson, and move on, though you can sometimes turn them around if you're so inclined (depends if it's worth it to you or not).

I think that's Ricardus's 80/20 you're referring to; mine would be something closer to "focus on the 20% of girls who are meeting up with you and doing what you tell or ask them to do!" (which is pretty much what Ricardus means too).

You might be having problems with this girl because the escalation failed, but it's not necessarily a death sentence... some of the time you can still land these girls.

I'd guess that this particular one is of a somewhat different variety than the one Anon was talking about (and I replied to below your post); it sounds more like she isn't overly flirty, but leads when she follows, only now she's being a bit evasive after mating was initiated but not completed.

She'll have to logically decide she wants you at this point, because now she knows what will happen. So however things proceed, they'll go according to her decision: yes, she wants sex with you, and will put herself in a position for it to happen, or no she does not, and she won't.

All you can do is try and get her out and see what her decision is. You can also try the failed mating attempt remedy I discussed in the article on second date strategies; that one can be challenging to pull off, but it's the highest percentage method when you've tried and failed to escalate things to intimacy.

Chase

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Poker Face

Author

Hi Anon,

Here’s the problem with assuming that pretty girls must have a superiority complex.

Imagine that every time you go out, women hit on you. Only… it isn’t BEAUTIFUL women. It’s okay women. And ugly women. And fat women. And every now and again, women who are attractive ENOUGH.

Then one day, a BEAUTIFUL woman walks up to… this NEVER happens. Are you afraid she might reject you?

Of course. Because, while you have abundance, you do NOT have absolute abundance, and the case is the same for every woman out there.

I’ve never met a woman, ever, who was totally confident she could get an amazing, high quality man open to her dream relationship at the drop of a hat. It just doesn’t happen.

So what happens is, if you’re the kind of man that women actually get excited about, then yes, ABSOLUTELY, they begin to fear losing you, and fear rejection. The more attractive and exceptional you make yourself, the more rare you become for progressively more women, and the more you run into this.

On women giving you “poker faces”: I wouldn’t spend much time worrying about how women ought to treat you. Just assume that they are going to react to you however you make them feel. If they’re giving you a poker face, yes, exactly that – you haven’t won them over yet.

There are two solutions to this:

  1. Get better at winning them over
  2. Get your fundamentals so solid that they’re excited to meet you, and AUTOMATICALLY won over

Personally, I’ve always put more effort into the latter route than the former because, like you, I don’t like having to chase. I prefer entering interactions already on the advantage, rather than coming from behind.

The higher status / more beautiful / more emotionally validated a woman is in any given situation, the tighter your fundamentals need to be if you don’t want this kind of reception. There’s no shortcut to this; same as a girl dressed in sweat pants and a baggy t-shirt with sloppy hair and no makeup and a voice that sounds like she spent the last decade smoking two packs a day is going to get a different reception from you than a girl who looks exactly like her, except with sexy clothes, sexy hair, neatly-done makeup, and a voice like a silver bell, you with tighter fundamentals is going to get a warmer reception than you with looser ones.

It’s really just a function of how you stack up: how good is your style / fashion / posture / smile / eye contact / walk / edge / smoothness / approach / etc. Did you come in smoothly or did you stumble in? Did you pre-open? Did you have preselection or not? Are you talking too fast or nervous, or is the tempo of your voice just right and are you making ample use of pauses? Are you acting aloof to get her chasing if she’s acting aloof, and warm to reward her if she’s acting warm?

All these things and a thousand more come into play in influencing whether you get a “poker face” or not. I wish I could say, “Do this one thing, and you’ll stop getting it,” but this kind of reaction is really an overall reaction to the complete package you present at any given time.

So, the good news is, there are a thousand ways to tweak this.

And the bad news is, there are a thousand ways to tweak this.

Seek to improve a little bit every time you go out. Add another piece your arsenal. And gradually, with time, and with enough improvement, you’ll find you get this kind of reception less and less and less, and a warm / enthusiastic / excited reception less and less.

Almost forgot – there is ONE quick fix you can play around with to see if it’s this. Sometimes, YOU can be coming in too cold for women (and you may not realize it). Where this is the case, women will often automatically respond with coldness in kind. I was guilty of this for a long time; what it was was, I was trying to protect my ego by not “putting myself out there” until I knew a girl liked me. Unfortunately, by hiding behind a veil of coldness, I inspired that very same reception for myself in many of the more socially-attuned (that is to say, beautiful) women I met.

Once I recognized it and trained myself out of the habit and instead began acting passionate and warm and receptive instead of cold and walled off and dispassionate, this poker face reaction went way, way down.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

I wasn't trying to say that


I wasn't trying to say that all of them have a superiority complex but some certainly do act that way... until you challenge them and show them that you don't think they're all that special...then they act like "oh shit, who is this guy not walking on eggshells around me?!" and they certainly do take note.

But at times it is possible that I may come across as being a bit too indirect. It really depends on the girl. With some girls, it's easy to display interest and they clearly know I'm interested and vice-versa, and with others it's like I display interest, maybe not overly directly but still in a way that I think is relatively obvious. e.g. Smiling, leaning in, chase framing, and even saying I like x,y,z about you, etc without coming on too thick and appearing needy. Even with this I've still gotten the occasional poker face. So maybe what I will do in the future is if I cannot break thru the poker face barrier, continue being warm and more overtly direct about my intentions (even though that kinda kills some intrigue) and just let her warm up to me...at the very least I'll get some more data points on their reactions. I certainly won't give up on this...

Thanks for everything you do here man. It's certainly wonderful to understand the social dynamics of what's going on and being able to read btwn the lines... it makes things more certain and thus more confident.

Anonymous's picture

Becoming More Approachable


Hey Chase, it's so great we have the opportunity to have all of our questions answered on here!
Anyway, whilst your site has certainly helped me in approaching girls on public, at parties etc., I am yet to really get it on with any of the girls in my school (in my final high school year) because of being a little introverted and umm, strange for most of my time there! Basically, I can read that theres attraction, plus I've been told countless times I am considered one of the more attractive members of our year group, I've just been a little too shy to act on it. Now my shyness has gone outside of school, and I'm looking to engage girls in my school, I'm having trouble trying to change their old opinions.
At the moment I'm working on being more open, and using the eye contact tips you've talked about here and they're working a little. What else can I do to a girl who finds me attractive, but is a little apprehensive because of my low social status? I often find girls looking at me, then quickly looking away before I can open, what can I do for this? And finally, I sometimes find, more often at parties, a girl looking at me, looks away as I engage her and continues to talk to me without eye contact. This is very annoying, and I'd really like to know how to change it!
Thanks Chase, I know that as a rule of thumb it's best to just meet new girls but honestly, I see this as like a challenge or a goal that I have to fulfil. Te rejection in school can give your ego a knock!
Eagerly awaiting your advice,
Yours,
Matt Ramsey

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Becoming More Approachable

Author

Hi Matt,

If a girl's apprehensive due to your status, the best thing you can do (provided you can do it) is meet her somewhere it's just the two of you where no one else will see her, get into a quick conversation that lets her see she's wrong about you, and then propose (confidently!) that the two of you meet up sometime (for food, for instance). Trade numbers. Then, just keep it on the down-low unless you begin dating and she chooses to let people know.

Basically, she needs to know that you're going to protect her status, because in a status-oriented environment like high school is, that's more important than anything other than a boyfriend she's absolutely nuts about.

You can also work on increasing your status - give yourself a status reboost by showing up one day in a revamped style, with a cool new haircut, and whether the initial wave of skepticism from people who think you're pretending - they'll get over it and accept that this is the new you, and then they'll start treating you very differently, assuming you are acting very differently. At that point, things get much easier. If they ask why the sudden change, you can simply say, "I'll be in college in 8 months. And I'm not going as the weird kid. So I want to start getting used to my new self now so that I'll have all the kinks worked out by the time I get there."

Girls not making eye contact with you while talking to you - that's very strange. Could just be they're very shy / not socially very well-adjusted. Try leading and geting investment and compliance from them and see how they respond.

Most of all... keep in mind it's still just high school, a weird / memorable / unnatural environment unlike any you've ever experienced before and any you'll ever experience again (well, unless you spend a lot of time on Facebook, that is). Enjoy it, but there's a lot more to come.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Thanks Chase, great advice,


Thanks Chase, great advice, added it all to my plan! (though i think i will leave out the haircut, maybe just change my posture or bulk up to revamp that style) I'm going to build up a little strategy to create the attractions and make them a little more intense whilst to cutting down the time I spend socialising in the cafeteria, in the library on study breaks etc.
However there's still one or two things I'm not sure about. Firstly, in the whole building social value thing, I'm not sure if I should try to increase it by being seen with girls by other girls in school and things. My plan is, as well as cutting back on my time spent in school social, to not give the girls I want (the ones no ones got yet) attention until I really make the move at something like a party (and I've figured out a great strategy for this too :/). However this will only work if I've become seen as a 'good catch' before.
So the idea to keep limited, intense interactions to create attraction (with all girls) but only be seen studying with, having coffee with, or walking around with the girls I don't want to create a hard to get kinda idea for the ones I am trying to get? Will they also subconsciously think 'wow matts talking girls more, maybe he's coming out of his shell', raising my value and having them more comfortable speaking to me at parties and the like?
This was incredibly difficult to write down haha, hard to explain! I hope you understand.
Thanks for replying, in great anticipation of your next reply!
Matt

Anonymous's picture

Resitance!


Hello Chase, there's this girl... haha she's not too bad, we go to the same high school together and we have afew lessons together, i havent talked to her much because when i do i expect to move fast and get her in bed ASAP as i do with most girls, thing is ive been doing some background research on why everyone of my pals one who is extreemly skilled with getting women couldnt get her! she's one of the most beautiful girls in school (according to my peers, to me she seems pretty average) and hasnt had a boyfriend for afew years, most of her friends say its because her last boyfriend hurt her so now she places a massive barrier on guys who get to close to her. is there a way around this? can a move just as fast with a girl who places alot of resistance? my social status as one of the most handsome guys normally gets me to persuade any girl. Valentines day is coming and before then i want to have signed the deal! can i still use Push-pull (aka the dragon slayer) to get this girl, or will i have to be indirect?

Second Question, can you move just as fast with someone you see everyday? or will she not feel the time constraint and rather decide to extend interactions

Last Question: if women percieve you as a player what should one do? i think it makes some more preservative women go into auto-rejection, is that true?

Chase Amante's picture

Conservative / Hesitant Girls

Author

Howdy Anon,

The problem with ultra-conservative / closed off girls is that they can get their walls up to the point where they're rejecting out of hand almost every man they meet. If you have even the slightest hint of something they see as "threatening," you're out.

The best advice I have on getting around this one is tweaking your vibe to the point that you don't set off any "threat" alerts. See "Better Than Jerk" on that one.

As a player, you can get a lot of women, but there are some women who are completely closed off to the player because they see him as insincere, dangerous, scary, or manipulative. To get those girls, you need to move to the next level of being a "genuine guy." The genuine guy is still appealing to the same women the player appeals to, but he's also appealing to the women with walls up.

So long as you don't flip any of her "danger" switches, you can move quickly with her. You've got to be extremely smooth, though. Otherwise, if you're not quite there yet, the best way to land a girl like this is to get her comfortable over a series of dates, ideally held in quick succession. For instance, she may not be open to sleeping with you until Date #5, but there's nothing that says that Date #5 can't happen within 2 weeks of Date #1 if you schedule them well and keep up momentum on running through your dates.

Re: someone you see everyday, usually this is much harder, because the "risks" associated with a botched hook up are greater. e.g., if you're a total stranger, she can take a chance on hooking up with you fast because if it doesn't work out, well, she'll never see you and feel awkward, and no one else will ever know. But if she sees you everyday, she risks perpetual awkwardness, and she risks everyone else finding out.

The less anonymous you are, the slower you end up being able to move (typically).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Low attainability


Hello Chase, another great article. But I have a question about attainability.

There is this girl I really love and she is also my good friend. She has been friend of mine since long ago but from 7-8 months ago, I am in love with her. We chat like everyday on facebook and i know I am desperate because I can't stay a day without talking to her. We don't meet much because she's busy with her work except on weekend. We though meet every morning since we go jogging together(there's another friend too).

I gave her too much attention that when we meet along with our other friends, our friends sometimes tease us and I think they know I love her. The problem here is she only thinks of me as a friend but I want her to be more than friend. My attainability with her is very low. Since she's my friend, she knows very much about me and to get out of friendzone I tried to be scarce but problem is we go jogging every morning. (We live not that far apart) I am jobless right now, im trying really hard to find job.

What should I do to for right attainability and how I am supposed to make her fall in love with me. Another problem is I am really bad at conversations with girls and I think she wants financial security which in my current situation, I can't provide.

Nowadays she isn't texting me as she used to because we used to text each other all the time and about all the things. She hardly texts me or only if there's important things. I think since she knew I'm in love with her, she's acting little different and we are not having as funny conversation as we used to.

Now please help me. How to get right attainability and how to get out of friendzone and make her love me. We both are 24 years old.

Ctown's picture

On Being Clive


Hi Chase,
Great article. It's occurred to me that I'm often seen as the Clive. I've had two recent relationships sabotaged because the hot girls (8.5s) were "falling too hard" and "never liked anyone so much". Said it through tears too. One tried to rekindle the relationship after a few months of self improvement..

How does a person actually devalue themselves without doing chumpish things? I hate how I seem to always bring out insecurities in really beautiful women. It makes them not pursue (or very passively) but they always leave a door open for me to pursue them. I'd like to be pursued for once.

Anonymous's picture

BEING A CHALLENGE THROUCH TEXT


If she sees me as being too easy through text, how do you go about being challenging again, do i ignore her, or try and get her investing in another way.

If i keep texting her to try and revert the situation am i not seen as investing too much still?

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