Trouncing Male Competition for Girls in the Dating Scene
In "How to Talk About Yourself on Dates," a reader writes in to ask about dealing with male competition:
Awesome site and truly amazing articles. There was one particular topic I was searching for but couldn’t find it. It's dealing with experience. Since the days before I came across this site I was pretty bad with girls, I have had problems dealing with competition. As soon as there is competition from guys with slightly better game I am rather clueless what to do. It's like I lose all the energy and confidence and hand it over to the other guy. Since in a normal scenario (college or university pretty girls are mostly hounded with tons of guys) this is most likely to happen everywhere and you'll keep losing girls if you don't sort it out. I know the obvious choice would be to ignore the guy and just follow the ways explained on the site. But if there’s a guy with naturally good game aiming of the same girl in front of you I find it impossible to ignore the same. There has to be a way to get around it!!Would be great if you could help me with the same...”
Dealing with other men competing with you in the dating arena can be a big headache. I certainly went through it during my learning curve - it's no fun to lose, but it's a whole lot less fun when not only do you lose, but some girl you liked clearly picks another man over you. In fact, it can be one of the most painful events you’ll experience.
So how do you deal with male competition - especially with men more experienced with women than you are? That's a tough nut to crack... and it's going to depend as much on your calm and your baseline fundamentals as it will on your "game."
Losing a competition feels bad.
Losing a competition for a woman you like feels worse.
Watching a woman walk away from you and into the arms of another man feels absolutely abysmally bad... at least when it's still a new experience for you.
In a way, learning how to get girls, how to meet them, how to charm them, seduce them, pick them up, bed them, and keep them happy and in relationships with you is really all about being better than the male competition you have against you. If there was zero competition for a woman, you'd have zero need for game, good fundamentals, relationship management skills, or anything else.
By traveling to different countries, cities, or even neighborhoods
with different demographics, you can have a vastly easier or harder
time meeting women and getting somewhere with them. Quite often, if you
pick up girls at bars and nightclubs,
instantly see a tripling or quadrupling of your success with women
simply by changing venues from the popular hotspot filled with
aggressive men climbing over one another to talk to women to the low
key place that still attracts attractive, well-dressed women but
that the men looking to pick up largely ignore. Competition levels go
down, success rates go up.
Why's it feel so bad when a girl rejects you for someone
The reason it hurts is because it often feels as if you have been weighed and judged "not good enough." It feels as though she's just announced some other man is superior to you.
You feel wounded, insulted, and deemed genetically unfit. Other men have better genes and make more desirable mates than you.
But, as we've said before on here, this isn't the case. It isn't you a girl is rejecting; she doesn't know you.
She only knows how you present yourself. And it's the same with that man she rejects you for; she doesn't know him, just how he presents himself. And when it comes to that presentation, she's saying she's more convinced by his presentation than she is by yours that he is the kind of man she wants.
Can You Beat Men with Better "Game" Than You?
In the strictest sense of the term, you really can't beat someone with better game than you; if game is simply the term for a man's ability to convince women to choose him over other men, then by definition if you succeed in being chosen over another man, then your game is superior to his. Your angle - whatever it is - trumped his in that instance. At least in that scenario, with that girl, your approach was stronger and your game was more effective.
When it comes to experience, though, yes - you can absolutely outcompete men more experienced with women than you.
However... you do need an edge of some sort. You need the men you're up against to not be "perfect."
A man with really tightly honed fundamentals and game you will not outcompete without bringing yourself to a similarly high level in those departments as him. You just can't.
It's like stepping into the ring with a 300-pound, muscled-up behemoth who's spent the past 10 years boxing, and you're a 90-pound lightweight who's only ever been in a couple of fights with other 90-pound lightweights. I don't care how many tricks you think you have up your sleeve, you're still going to get pounded into the mat in no time flat.
I tell you this from being on both sides of the coin:
I spent plenty of time early on as the new student of game, working my tail off trying to win over girls that men more experienced and better with women than I was were after... and I'd plow all this time and effort into things, only to end up watching the girl walk off with the guy when he'd seem to have done virtually nothing. It was astonishing and maddening every time
Likewise, once I was good I've watched plenty of men trying their tails off to pry women I was already in the process of picking up away from me - guys who'd just noticed her, or guys who'd been in her friend zone forever and wanted her going home with them (or no one) instead of me, all kinds of guys. And they'd work and work and work, and at some point I'd come along, say a few words to the girl, and we'd leave. I never turned around to look at them, but I have no doubt those men stood looking on, jaws on the ground, going, "What? How? But she's my girl... I worked so hard for her!" just like I used to say to myself when I was new and losing women to men more experienced than I was
Another way of putting it might be this: if you're at 4 on a 1 to 10 scale of abilities with and attractiveness to women, you might be able to beat out a 5 or a 6 or maybe a 7 with a sharp enough angle and some fancy footwork. But you won't stand a chance against a man who's an 8 in terms of fundamentals and abilities, no matter what you do.
That's because the most important things to succeeding with women are your fundamentals themselves, and those are the things you need experience with women to hone and refine.
A Thirst for Competition
I very much believe you don't get good with women without a strong
need to compete against other men and women. It goes hand-in-hand with
your sex drive... it is a direct result of testosterone levels and your
natural levels of dominance.
Every man I've known who was good with women was highly competitive. Many of the guys who are more seasoned are also very gracious... but that's only because they've gotten so good that they see themselves as comfortably on top of the pile and no longer in any need of showing how mighty they are to the male competition out there.
That doesn't mean you have to be a jock or an athlete. I didn't start playing sports until I was 18 years old... it just wasn't something I learned growing up, and it wasn't something I had interest in starting to learn as a boy if it meant I was going to be starting out worse off than everyone else. No thanks. But throw me in a competitive situation, and I get both angry and motivated very quickly if I struggle at all to come out on top right away. It is perhaps my key motivator - if you want to get me to do something, find a way to trigger my competitive instincts strongly.
Can you be good with girls without a desire to struggle, compete, and dominate? I don't think so... the act of domination is an act of making the other side submit, and this is really the inherent flow of the mating ritual. A romance is also a process of domination and submission... flirting and teasing are simply more of this. A woman pushes back against you (flirting), you brush this aside or shatter it with ease, and she becomes more excited. She pushes back against you again (more flirting), you deflect it or turn it around at her again, and she becomes still more excited. Eventually she yields to you, and allows you to mate. You have dominated her, and she has recognized your dominance and submitted to it.
Dominance, competition, and desire for sex and sex partners are
inherently, irrevocably entwined... you might even say they are all one
and the same.
The good news, then, is that if being outcompeted by other males makes you angry and upset, and lights the fires under you to do something about it (and succeed more with women and more easily and consistently neutralize your male competition), you've probably got what it takes to emerge victorious against most men... at least, in the long run.
But for now, you've got to learn what to do to get there, first.
Men rarely compete head on for mates, but just because a man isn't challenging you directly - or you aren't challenging him directly - doesn't mean a challenge isn't going on.
There are three (3) real ways men compete for women:
Direct Competition. In this scenario, one male directly challenges another for status and respect in the earshot and eyeshot of an attractive young female. It can be as simple as something small - "Whoa, dude, you wore THAT to the part?" - or it can be something big - "Hey man, can you move aside; that's my spot right there and you're in it."
Indirect Competition. This is where a man competes with another man not by challenging him directly, but by talking to the woman and closing her off to the man or moving her away from him. One example is a man saying, "Come on, let's move somewhere more private," then pulling her away; another is a man simply positioning his body in a way that the woman he's talking to ends up facing away from another man competing for her, or in a way that his body boxes his competitor out of being able to talk or interrupt without looking awkward or uncomfortable.
Fundamental Competition. This one's my personal favorite. Put two guys right near a woman, let her equally assess both, and choose the man she's more attracted to - it's always the man with the tightest fundamentals. You'll lose this one all day long when you're going up against a man with tighter fundamentals than you, but once you start hitting intermediate to advanced levels of learning meeting and dating material, you being to reach levels with your fundamentals where you realistically almost never end up in competition with other men functioning at the same level as you are.
In a crowded nightclub, for instance, there might be 3 to 5 other men around your level or higher (or none, if you're high enough), while there are 15 to 30 women each of you will find attractive enough, and you simply won't come into competition (you and they will all be experienced enough to know there's no reason to try and steal one another's women when there are so many other available women out there, and you'll be able to recognize the guys with solid fundamentals a mile away, just as they will recognize you). The only competitions you'll end up in are with the less experienced guys, who think they can pull a girl away from you, and end up walking away frustrated and confounded when they find themselves unable to.
The solution for winning at all three of these forms of competition, interestingly enough, is to get your fundamentals handled, and then turn every competition into a fundamental competition.
Why Fundamentals Trump Game in Competitions
Something very popular in the pickup community a while back was what
was known as "AMOG tactics." That is to say, ways of verbally (usually)
jousting and sparring with strong male competition and coming out the
winner. These usually revolved around either making that competition
look bad, and thus you'd look good in contrast, or around befriending
these aggressors or potential aggressors and hence disarming them as
In "Dealing with Disruptive Men" I discussed why these approaches are not as effective as the ideal solution for dealing with disruptions and tooling attempts, and in "Breaking Circle" I talked about why you don't want to break and engage with potential competitors before a girl does.
If you haven't read those articles, or it's been a while since you have, here's the (very basic) summary: any time you joust or spar with someone, you're wasting effort and energy and thus getting sucked to their level; and every time you break circle to address someone knew, you bow to social pressure and communicate to the girl or people you were talking with that this new person is more important than they are.
Instead, the ideal is to find ways to ignore or deflect tooling attempts as effortlessly as possible - thus obeying the Law of Least Effort and the principle of sprezzatura - and ignoring people trying to break into your circle until the girl you're speaking with breaks circle first (if she even does at all - she may not), and even then only engaging them very slightly, so that the social pressure is on your girl to end things with them and get back to talking to you (and on the interrupter to bow out and leave gracefully, lest he get shooed off and be forced to leave ungracefully).
To boil down why fundamentals work better than direct or indirect challenging, it comes down to these three (3) rules of female assessment of male competition:
Men using fundamentals over direct or indirect forms of competition show more experience, ability, and confidence with women and in social situations, and
Men using fundamentals over direct or indirect forms of competition do not pressure the woman and show women that they're confident of being selected over the competition without having to rush them or control them
Women trust fundamentals far more than they do "game," or cajoling or persuading. If a woman sees one man using words to try to sway her, but another man she can just look at and be swayed, she will go with the second man every single time. Words are easy to fake - but your nonverbal fundamentals are almost impossible to
When a man's moving a woman to get her away from other men, for instance, he's communicating that those men are threats; he believes the woman may choose them over him.
For practical reasons, you will still sometimes have to do this - if other men are closing in on a girl you have who's ready to pull, for instance, and you've delayed pulling her or she's resisted somewhat - in this case, it's usually worth taking the small hit in attraction just to get her out of there and remove the chance that she jumps from you to another man and leaves with him instead - at some point, you do have to take her home, and while this is better to do when you've cleared away any competition first, sometimes there's simply so much competition or the competition is so fierce that you cannot really eliminate it altogether... no matter how good you are.
But normally speaking, you'll be able to brush aside competition most of the time before needing to do anything like move girls or invite them home.
And when you can lean back and let the things about you do the talking - rather than you try to let your words do the talking - women will almost always decide in your favor.
What Are These Fundamentals, and How Do They Help You Win?
To quote from "How to Attract Women: The Guide," fundamentals include:
- Posture. Strong posture makes you attractive, period.
- Movement speed. Powerful, sexy men move more slowly.
- Eye contact. Effective eye contact flirting makes you captivating.
- Expressions. Great facial expressions entrance and excite women.
- Gracile movement. Smooth, fluid movement sends strong signals.
- Voice. A sexy voice is mandatory for increasing your sensuality.
- Speech. Speak slowly and use the pregnant pause.
- Fashion. Get well-fitting clothes, a sexy haircut, and cool facial hair.
Fundamentals are your passive attraction amplifiers. Being tight in these makes everything else that you do work better.
Solid fundamentals mean you:
- Get more women signaling their interest in you and checking you out
- Get a warmer reception from the women you open when you do
- Find women more willing to invest in you and comply with you right away
- Have an easier time escalating things with women and moving things forward
- Receive less interference (or cockblocking) from her friends, or none at all
- More easily create and maintain an intimate and sexual vibe
- Get her home more easily, escalate with less resistance, and bed her more easily
Solid fundamentals also mean that women compare you to other men and decide they'd rather be with you than with the other men.
I first realized this when I started working with a wingman after moving to Washington, D.C. I'd been going out alone religiously for the past 6 months, as my friends were great for drinking with but, as cool as they were and as successful with women as they were at parties and in social situations, they weren't very good at picking up women in bars. When I arrived in D.C., I ended up going out often with a really cool guy who was incredibly sociable, loud, and outgoing; and for my first month there or so, every time I brought him into a group I'd met, he'd take it over... and I'd be out. He didn't even mean to, he was just so sociable I didn't stand a chance.
At first I tried competing with him in volume and liveliness, but I quickly realized that when I did that it made things worse - here were two guys, supposedly friends, jockeying with each other for the spotlight in front of some group of girls. Not cool. Led to even quicker ends of those interactions.
So I came up with another theory, and started testing that: I would hang back, put in minimal effort, and look so damn cool I'd make girls just have to know who on Earth this strong, silent guy was.
And it worked - pretty soon I'd bring my pal in, or he'd open a group and bring me in, and he'd grab the spotlight, and I'd just hang back, smile calmly, look around slowly at the other things going on, peaceful expression on my face, über-cool body language, and almost every time the women in the group would start asking me questions and trying to engage me. Usually, the leader of the female group would peel off to engage me, while the rest of the girls either remained fixated on my wing, or (sometimes) getting excited and trying to jump in front of the leader for my attention (girls tend to compete with their leader for men; whatever man the alpha female gives her stamp of approval on, all the other females in the group then want to get their hands on too).
By shutting up and letting my fundamentals do the talking, I had essentially repositioned myself as the leader. It got so extreme that my wing started complaining about it; he asked a mentor of ours how it could happen that he'd start talking to girls, I'd relax and say nothing, and women would excuse themselves from the conversation with him to turn to me and open and engage me.
High on this new way of winning women's attention and interest in competitive situations, I threw out standard AMOG tactics and started using this for everything competition-like:
Guys hitting on a girlfriend of mine: I'd just lean back, relax, look casually around as if life was just so boring, and wait for the guys to make fools of themselves. They almost always do.
Guys interrupting me to talk to a girl I'm talking to: I'd ignore them wherever possible - perhaps give them a quick, polite smile - and continue talking to the girl, unless the girl engaged with them. If she engaged, I'd treat it the same as I did with a girlfriend - just stand there, be chill, and wait for her to finish.
Guys trying to tool me to elevate their status and reduce mine: I'd ignore this unless it was so loud or in-my-face I couldn't ignore it - and at that point, they're usually being rude, and you can easily paint them as socially awkward buffoons (again, see the article on disruptive men for more nuance on this).
19 times out of 20, this works wonderfully. The only time this doesn't work is when your approach was off, the girl wasn't really all that interested in you, and this new competitor really does have tight game and/or tight fundamentals, and your girl really does start to like him a lot and flirt with him. Half the time this happens, she's trying to make you jealous; and the other half, she's legitimately found someone she likes better.
These edge cases are the only time
you want to engage in direct or indirect competition; direct if
he's engaged you, indirect if he hasn't (e.g., if he completely ignored
you and swooped in to talk to your girl, then you must completely
ignore him when you get your girl's attention back, get a little
compliance, and then move her somewhere else; can't give him attention
when he's given you none first, otherwise
you acknowledge him as higher status than you and you are, essentially,
The rest of the time though, if you have tight fundamentals and you put them on display, you will usually win. That's because:
Women trust fundamentals a LOT more than they trust words - a man can jump in speaking a thousand words a minute with the smoothest pitch in the world, but if you're standing there looking like a clothed Adonis, a slow-moving, sexily-standing image of raw masculinity, she won't be hearing a thing he says because she'll be so busy trying to find a way to talk to you
Your lack of speaking or engaging creates social pressure that does not let this girl, who now sees you as part of her "group," leave you unattended for too long - the longer you stand there not talking or doing anything, the more uncomfortable she feels ignoring you to talk to someone else, whether he interrupted or he's the louder person in your group (conversely, the moment you start talking to her or anyone else, this pressure is alleviated and she forgets about you - so don't engage until she's turned her attentions to you)
Interesting point on that last: this is one of the big advantages of working with a wingman - your wing can engage the person in the girl you want to talk to's current group (be it a male friend, female friend, or a possible boyfriend or suitor of hers), and this removes social pressure from your girl to hurry back to the other person and take care of his or her emotions as soon as possible.
Likewise, dealing with men working with wingmen tends to be one of the most difficult tasks when you're going out by yourself and a pair of men comes along to try to pry your girl off of you... fortunately, this one doesn't happen too often; usually these guys are good enough that they recognize if you have game, they're better off looking for greener pastures (like we mentioned above).
The only time this one's really a problem for you on the receiving
end is when you run into men who are much more talented with women than
you are. It's easy to recognize a girl who's just met a man - she's
laughing a lot more, much more animated, and much more visibly excited.
And it's easy to get a read on about where a man's level is with
meeting women - a quick scan of his fundamentals and how he's
interacting with his girl will usually tell you, once you have a year
or two of solid field experience. So, when you're still new, you can
sometimes attract predatory seducers who know it'll be easier to peel
off a girl you've already identified as looking for men and already
done the hard work of getting her open and receptive than it will be to
find a fresh girl themselves. But, this isn't that common in most
What If Your Fundamentals Still Need Work?
The great thing about fundamentals is that you can improve them fast, with just a bit of focus. You can be above average with most of these in a matter of months after starting to work on them. It'll take you a few years to be really good, but the first few months you spend working on them will right away put you head and shoulders above most of the male competition you've got going out of the gates.
You must get these handled, though. You can't outcompete more experienced men without better fundamentals and more trust in your fundamentals to beat their verbal game.
And even with incredible fundamentals, if you run into a really experienced guy, who has both very tight fundamentals and very tight verbal game, that's one scenario where you simply won't stand a chance. But that's okay - you'll run into vanishingly few men like that. It might seem like there are a lot of guys like that when you start out new, but the better you get the more you'll realize those guys who seemed like tough competition actually weren't all that good in the first place.
You need fundamentals to outcompete other men. Your fundamentals are the main thing that women are looking at. There are other things - the four main attraction switches for women are:
- Social proof / alphaness / leadership
- Preselection / desirability to other women
- Generosity / conspicuous consumption
... but fundamentals are the glue that binds all the rest together. The big impression that preselection makes, for instance, quickly fades if once a girl is talking with you one-on-one she finds that your confidence and nonverbals are weak and unattractive.
Thus, the core lesson for dealing with male competition is this:
Get your fundamentals handled. Then lean back, throw a bored look on your face, let the social pressure of her ignoring you to talk to this other guy in the group - whether he opened her first and you're building up her desire to talk to you, or she was talking to you originally but he got her to break circle and talk to him - do its work, and you're almost always going to be right as rain.
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