How to Pick Up Girls in Front of Their Male Friends

pick up girls with male friendsIn "Effort Aversion: Or, Why You Don't Work Hard and Get Laid", Gem asks the following about picking up girls with male friends or orbiters around:

Chase is there a way to efficiently approach girls who have orbiters with them; the problem here is sort of congruent to approaching a set I would think where it's tough to make a smooth natural approach because it isn't one on one.

Lately I've been seeing a lot of girls with orbiters at the gym (it's quite sad really), and my standard approach here has always been to wait till the orbiter goes to drink water or use a separate machine and meet the girl in that break that she is alone. If the guy comes back he may come back or stay away and if he comes and she thinks they're good "friends" she might introduce him (or otherwise ignore him; it makes no difference once I've met the girl).

A great girl I met yesterday took me a long time to approach because her orbiter was with her forever watching her squat ass to grass and not even working out haha. The girl and I met eyes several times but I couldn't approach till the guy went to get water. Finally I met the girl and moved things forward and the guy didn't come back but I remember kicking myself at how long it took and if there were a better way I could think of to do the whole approach would have went for it right then


Approaching girls with male friends hanging around. It's something that can scare you off of approaching at all, at least early on.

Yet, this one's far from impossible, and you may even find yourself getting a kick out of doing it if you're of a competitive nature.

Sometimes it's just fun watching that other guy's jaw drop in frustration and awe as you sweep in and make the kind of connection with a girl in minutes he's been working months to have... and then ask her out and get a "yes."

Of course, there's some nuance here - and chief among the details you need to mind is whether the girl respects the guy or not... and if so, how much.

Because how she thinks about, feels toward, and treats him is going to have big implications for the kind of approach you need to do to make the kind of headway with her you want to make.

Mess it up, and she may friend zone you fast... or reject you outright.

pick up girls with male friends

Before you go diving in to liberate some girl from the uninspiring men hovering about her, the first thing you need to assess is what the situation is between her and those men... because different situations will call for rather different approaches.

The possible scenarios you'll encounter are:

  1. She's just met a guy / guys
  2. She's acquaintances with him / them
  3. She's friends with him / them

There's also "she's already together with him", but that one's covered in this article: "How to Steal a Girl from Under Her Boyfriend’s Nose."

I'll go into more detail on each of these non-attached scenarios here, and how you differentiate them.

She Barely Knows Him

When a guy's hanging around a girl and she barely knows him, there are a few usual dead giveaways:

  • If he's an unwelcome interloper or hanger on, you'll notice her giving him only the briefest of eye contact, polite-but-unwelcoming smiles, and often throwing about looks of exasperation after turning away from him, to show the world that, "Hey - I'm not with this guy"

  • If he's neutral and not creepy, but also not all that interesting, she'll be polite, and will talk to him the way she might talk to a random middle-aged woman who approached her to talk - politely, with some mild interest, and a little back-and-forth, but still somewhat preoccupied with whatever else she's doing and not turning her full attention over to this person who wants to speak with her

  • If he's smooth and attractive, she'll be very visibly excited - lots of animation, lots of communication. For obvious reasons, women don't behave this way with men they already well know, usually... even if the guy's very attractive and someone she likes a lot, she's just not going to be bouncing off the walls to talk to him

Those are the girl's signals. There are also typically a few from the guy:

  • Most men stand uncomfortably far away from women they've just met. You'll notice a larger gap between guys and girls they've just met typically than you will between opposite sex friend confederates who are better known to one another (exception: men who know what they're doing with women, who will always be close and comfortable, regardless how well or not they know a girl)

  • Most men just meeting new women are overly stiff and not relaxed, and will have their bodies fully turned toward the new women they're talking to... even as those women give them only partial body attention (again, the exceptions here are men who are good with women)

  • Most men just meeting women also talk about ordinary "getting to know you" topics if you're within earshot of them and can hear what they're saying. Someone she's known a good while won't ask her where she works and what she does - only someone who's just met her will

The "barely knows her" guy is the easiest to get around typically, because his connection to her is string-thin, and he often isn't going to have much he can say or do to turn things around if you step in with better fundamentals and better game and she just likes you and takes to you more.

We'll talk more below about how to run your approach when one or more guys like this are present - for now, this is how you identify a guy falls into this category (and is likely of the lowest threat level of the different men you might classify as "orbiters" you'll find hanging out around a girl you'd like to meet).

She's Acquaintances with Him

This is the guy a girl knows casually and has met before, but isn't actually all that close to and isn't someone she'd consider a legitimate "friend."

He isn't someone she's going to invite to a party she's going to this weekend, for instance, or someone she'll call to ask for help moving out of her apartment. He's just some guy she knows whom she runs into every so often and has some small talk with.

These guys can potentially turn into something more for the girl - if for instance a guy is taking a slower approach with her because he's running slower gym game or classroom game or workplace game - but usually they're just harmless men hanging about hoping for a break or just being flirty and social.

They generally fall into these categories:

  • The annoying guy who keeps bugging her: this is the guy she tries to minimize communication with as much as possible. She'll avoid eye contact with him and pretend she doesn't notice him usually; he'll always be the first to greet her and come over to talk to her. She gives him as many one-word and otherwise short answers as humanly possible

  • The social guy she's neutral on: this guy is someone she exchanges a little polite conversation with because why not; it's good to be social, and there's nothing terribly weird or off-putting about the guy, so if they're on friendly terms, might as well say "hi" and make a little chit-chat. Sometimes this guy will think he's "getting somewhere with her" though, even though she's just being sociable

  • The guy she thinks is cute: this guy has a shot with her, but usually he's a victim of moving too slow, and he's gotten stuck in tar somewhere along the way - he likes her; she likes him; but if he makes a move, it's going to feel weird to both of them because they've both gotten so used to liking each other and flirting with each other but nothing happening

How do you tell a guy she's just acquaintances with apart from the other kinds of relationships she can have with men around her? Here are the clearest signs:

  • If she behaves excited to see him, or surprised to see him, he's an acquaintance. Someone she knows more intimately she'll have coordinated with beforehand and they'll expect to meet each other - no surprises. But if she wasn't planning to run into him, you're very likely to hear a "Heeeeeey! How ARE you?!" - and he is almost certainly an acquaintance

  • They'll have mostly "catch up" talk - "So how's your job/class going?" "How'd you do on that thing from 3 weeks ago?" The vaguer it is and the longer the time span it covers, the less well they know each other

  • They'll (usually she'll) break it off with a "Well, it was great seeing you!"-type remark (that really means "Anyway, time for me to get going about my day")

Acquaintances usually are best just waiting out - the majority part ways after a few minutes of chatting.

Sometimes, however, that isn't the case - and we'll cover that more in just a moment. But before we do, there's one more type of relationship to go over...

She's Friends with Him

Whether he's a bona fide orbiter, revolving around her desperately hoping to one day get a chance at making her all his, or he's a guy whom SHE is hoping will want to sleep with or date her at some point, he's a guy she knows pretty well, sees often, and has some measure of connection with. They stay in touch, coordinate on places they're going and people they're seeing, and they have certain expectations for how one another will treat each other based on past experience (or, sometimes, wishful thinking).

pick up girls with male friends

The kinds of friends include:

  • "Just friends": these are the classic orbiters - the guys who are convinced that if they just hang out around a girl long enough and talk to her often enough, their shining personalities will poke through and she'll fall in love with the quality of their characters. Which, of course, is like trying to make a million dollars by working your paper route harder. Even the guys who are the "lovable losers" here, while they may command affection from a girl, typically do not command her respect - you won't want to be mean to them, but you certainly won't treat them as equals

  • Legitimate friends: these guys are guys who legitimately like the girl as friends and nothing more. If you ask them, they'll tell you she's like a sister to them, and thinking of her sexually is kind of off-putting. Girls legitimately like and respect these guys every bit as much as they do their gal pals

  • The guy she's friends with and crushing on: this is the guy who treats her like just a friend, but whom SHE is hoping to get somewhere with. She's usually going to be chasing this guy down and flirting with him much more than he is her

Here's how you differentiate guys she's friends with from other classes of men:

  • She'll stick around with them a whole lot more - it's not just an "Oh, hey! How are you?" like it is with a mere acquaintance; neither is it the "just getting to know you" questions of the guy she's just met. Rather, they're there because they're there together, and they're going to stick around and hang out together... he won't be peeling off and leaving anytime soon

  • They'll clearly have a more relaxed vibe with one another, with much more joking around and laughing, than what she and less familiar men will have together (which will be something far more tense and expectation-laden)

Whenever you see those two signs - sticking around, and a real chummy vibe together - you know you've got a couple of people who are pretty close and comfortable with one another. It can sometimes be difficult differentiating a close male friend from a boyfriend simply by observation - sometimes all you can do when meeting them is to ask outright how they know each other.

But if you're afraid of approaching because he might be her boyfriend, you'll miss out on a lot of cute girls who'll be happy to meet you - that's because women who are out with platonic male friends are some of the EASIEST women to get phone numbers from, and even pick up same night.

Now, let's talk how.

pick up girls with male friends

It's possible to approach girls with any combination of those men above around them. However, you will need to tailor your approach to the situation.

Don't worry - I'm not going to give you 9 different approaches you need to memorize to deal with each of those categories and subcategories of men. Rather, I'm going to give you several different approaches - and let you know which categories these correspond with.

Approach #1: Wait for Him to Leave

This one's the most hassle-free approach.

It's also one that requires you to be pretty sure you've made the right assessment of who this guy is to her... because if you're not, you may end up waiting until the cows come home.

The approach is simple enough: wait for the guy or guys to peel off, give it a minute so you aren't jumping into the fray the moment she's all alone, then go approach her the same as you would a girl who's been by herself the whole time.

This approach is best used with:

  • Guys she barely knows and has just met... unless it's clearly going very well and you think he's going to stick with her / try to pick her up then and there

  • Guys she's acquaintances with - usually, her interactions with these guys won't tend to be more than a few minutes, and all you'll need to do is wait for things to die down a minute or two in and the two to part ways. In certain social situations, her and this guy or these guys maintain proximity and ping each other every so often with light conversation, though - and in those cases, you'll need another approach

  • Guys she's legitimately friends with that you can tell or have overheard that are leaving - otherwise, assume these guys are going to stick around

If you're unsure whether she'll split from the guy (or he'll split from her), it's usually safe to give the two of them a minute or two, and then if they're still hanging around, turn to another approach.

Approach #2: Ignore the Guy and Go Right In

This one's the next in line in the "least complicated" playbook, but it's another one you've got to make sure you've gauged correctly, because someone's always going to come out of this looking like a bit of a fool - and if you don't properly gauge whom this other guy is to her, that someone can easily end up being you.

Why's that? Well, if you're going in pretending the guy's not even there (aside from maybe the most minimalistic of acknowledgements his way to take some of the edge off), you have a few possible outcomes:

  1. The girl's happy to receive you, turns her attention toward you, and now the guy's shut out and feels like an idiot (alternately, very occasionally, she can be happy to receive you and actually really like both you AND him, in which case she finds herself in a tough balancing act trying to keep both of you interested and preventing either of you from deciding to leave... but that's rare and you'll only see it on occasion)

  2. The girl's more interested in talking to or maintaining a good connection with the other guy, and gives you a neutral or worse reception - either introducing you to the other guy (bringing you down to his level), or quickly exiting the conversation with you and returning to the one with him - leaving you on the outside

  3. The girl's not really interested in talking to either of you, and pushes you off into talking to the other guy, then makes her getaway - with both of you left trapped in polite conversation wondering why you're talking to one another when what both of you wanted was to be talking to her

The last one doesn't happen too much, but it's always pretty amusing (in an embarrassing kind of way) when it does... like, "What happened? That was weird."

A good way of thinking about it is this:

  • If you're more attractive than he is, and she seems disinterested in talking to him, she'll probably be thrilled to have you drop in rescuing her (and helping her to get away from him)

  • If he's got better fundamentals than you are and seems more attractive, and/or she's interested in talking to him, you're going to seem like a socially awkward intruder who doesn't know any better than to butt into places he isn't really wanted, and she'll be annoyed that you're there

  • If you and he are both similarly unattractive and she doesn't want to talk to either of you, she may be trying to get away from him when you approach, and then first feel overly put upon ("Oh no - ANOTHER guy to escape from?!"), then throw the two of you at one another and get out (less socially calibrated girls will just throw their hands up and leave)

Hopefully, you won't run into the last scenario that often (you really only will if you're brand new to meeting girls, your fundamentals need a lot of work, and your social calibration is way off), but the second scenario will happen from time to time when you've misjudged her interest levels in the other guy or the depth of their relationship - hey, it happens. No need to beat yourself up over it.

The guys you'll use this approach with are:

  • Guys she's just met and it's going pretty well (but not SUPER well) - essentially, guys she seems to like enough that they aren't going to part ways anytime soon, but not so much that she's drooling over him. If you're sufficiently attractive or interesting, you can come in and pull her attention away for a few minutes, which is usually enough that most men will get discouraged and leave, or will hover around awkwardly and make themselves look bad waiting for the girl to give them attention again (which only solidifies your attractiveness over them in her mind)

  • Guys she's legitimately friends with whom she seems to be not treating with respect - you don't want to go in overly respectful toward men she does not respect as men unless you want to be classed the same as they are. In other words, if she's treating a guy as a nice guy friend zone friend, give him a polite greeting, and then completely ignore him, or treat him like a lower status individual you're dealing with patiently but not terribly interestedly, and get back to her quickly, if you must interact with him. If she thinks she is above him, you want her to see you as on or above her level, rather than his

The treatment of the other guy is important here - if you're largely ignoring a guy, it's because he's lower social status than you. It's kind of mean and requires you to be something of an asshole, which may not be something you naturally like doing... but if you want the girl's respect and attraction, and this other guy she's talking to doesn't have it himself, you can't treat him all that well - just the bare minimum of politeness, and then ignore him fast.

Approach #3: Slow Open, and Treat the Guy Respectfully

The most complicated of our three approaches, and the one you'll want to employ if the friend or friends aren't going away anytime soon and it seems as though she respects them, this is different from what we'd employ in a genuine group situation, or even when a girl's out with a girlfriend most of the time.

That's because the dynamic you'll encounter with women who are out with one or two male friends is often very different from the dynamic you'll encounter with women out with one or two female friends. Her female friends are more likely to be cool and not cockblock if you are an attractive, socially-calibrated man; if she's out with one or two male friends though, they can quickly become defensive or protective if she hasn't already shown strong approval in your direction first.

So, our whole approach to approaching women who have a good friend or orbiter around that they hold in some measure of respect or have some measure of a connection with is geared around maximizing approval from her, and minimizing bruising the guy's ego.

You'll thus use this with the following types of guys:

  • Guys she barely knows whom she's just met and really hitting it off with

  • Guys she's acquaintances with who are hanging around and keeping proximity with her

  • Guys she's friends with whom she respects or likes

Basically, anyone she respects or feels some sense of social obligation to, you'll use this approach.

Why this one? Because it takes care of the other guy's ego, rather than bruises it - and if a girl cares about someone else's ego, she's going to be very sensitive to taking part in any kind of social interaction that will risk bruising it, especially with strangers.

In other words, if she likes him, you don't win by making her choose between you and him. You win by skirting that choice altogether and simply making talking to you without hurting him much / at all the natural thing to do.

That works like this:

  1. Start with slow opening: position yourself near her, or pass by her, and ping her with an opener, quick comment, or other short remark. Just something to set up a little precedence of having had a bit of interaction with her - then keep moving (or go back to whatever you were doing).

    What this does is puts you on both her and the other guy's radar - she's going to have a (very brief) exchange with you, which means the next time you speak with her a moment or two later, you won't be a complete stranger; and HE's going to have a quick "Wait, what's happening - do I need to fight this guy off / is he a threat?" moment, that subsides when you leave off talking to her (he thinks: "Oh, that was silly of me; false alarm"). It also pops the bubble the two or three of them were in if they were in intense conversation, without you sticking around to be that annoying guy who "doesn't get it"

  2. Ping her a second time, then break off, if you need more of an "in": keep in mind of course that you're going for clever / funny / interesting / insightful remarks, and you're trying to showcase your sexiness when you do, so that she's becoming very intrigued in whom this new man is. You're also activating the other guy's fight-or-flight response, then letting the adrenaline just sit there in his veins unused, which sort of burns up this response as an option for using against you later - when you really go into conversation with her, he'll have been conditioned to just hold on and not do anything by your previous couple of pings

  3. Finally, go in and seriously open her: next, really go into opening her, and treat the other guy like you would her brother: thoughtful, respectful, but only giving about 5% to 10% of your attention to him - and the other 90 to 95% of it to her. If you've done this right, you'll have primed her enough to be opened by you, popped the bubble with your first ping (so you aren't some socially uncalibrated guy barging in to pop the bubble and hang around all in one go), and shut down most of the other guy's resistance to you (unless he's the super-sensitive type who's been fuming every since your first ping, and waiting for a chance to one-up you - but these will usually not ever be the respected friends of women, and thus you're better off ignoring or waiting for guys like this to leave)

Here's an example of what this'd look like, taking the gym scenario Gem painted for us in his comment:

Guy: So then I [blah blah]

Girl: That's hilarious.

[momentarily lull in conversation]

You: [to girl, in a very sexy voice with killer nonverbals] Mind if I work in with you?

Girl: Yeah, no problem.

[you do a set while the guy and the girl talk]

You: [after set, when guy and girl have another lull in conversation] Big Barbie fan? [pointing at her Barbie headband]

Girl: Huh? Oh... [laughs] Yeah. Barbie rocks.

You: She's certainly good motivation for the gym. That waist is about as tiny as it gets.

Girl: Yeah, Barbie's in awesome shape!

You: The great thing about her is she never has to eat anything either, so she always stays that way.

Girl: I know... I'm so jealous!

You: You have a really nice smile. Very warm. I'm Claude.

Girl: I'm Elsa!

You: Nice to meet you, Elsa.

pick up girls with male friends

In a bar, you'd roll right into some playful banter and then a bit of deep diving; in a gym, you'd break off to go do another set and talk to her a little more later (this conversation would be the first ping ["Mind if I work in with you?"] and the second ping [opening and some light banter, complimenting, and exchanging of names], and you'd talk to her more later and exchange numbers).

Wait, Ignore, or Slow Open?

If you want a lightning quick reference to remember which to use when by, here's a good rule of thumb to follow:

  • If he's going to leave soon anyway, just wait a few minutes
  • If he's sticking around but not respected, just approach her, and ignore him
  • If he's sticking around but she likes him, slow open her, and be respectful

... and that's pretty much it.

You don't want to barrel in and ignore him if she likes him and is going to view you as socially uncalibrated / rude / making her look bad socially.

Likewise, you don't want to come in being respectful of him if she herself is not respectful of him - otherwise, she'll view you as on his level (lower), instead of hers (higher).

And, you don't want to do EITHER of these if you can take the road of least resistance and just WAIT for the guy to take off on his own anyway - that saves your time and your energy.

Pick whichever one's going to be simplest without stepping on anybody's toes it'll be bad to step on, and run with it.

(Final note: if you have a wingman or a wingwoman with you, it's all about 10X simpler, because you can have your wingman or wingwoman go in first and peel off the other friend or friends, and then you go in and meet the poor lonely girl who's all by herself now that her friends are being occupied. This article assumes you're solo and don't have a partner-in-crime to make life easy - but if so, don't overlook this one!)

Provided your fundamentals are in order and you're a guy she'd like to get to know anyway, her male friends, orbiters, or acquaintances will almost never be an obstacle if you go in the right way.

Chase Amante

For further reading on approaching in sticky situations, make sure you read "Meeting Girls in Messy Situations / Friends Around" and "5 Essential Insights on How to Meet Girls in Groups."

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his Mastery Package.


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Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase, I am a 22 year old guy from Mumbai, India. I am a regular reader of the articles of your site and I must say you are doing a splendid job. Your articles have offered me various insights in the social arts. I was extremely dumb, socially, before I read your articles and sadly I have committed almost all the mistakes with girls that you could list on your site, which makes me feel terrible, however I am working upon my fundamentals at the moment.
My request to you is that in India, the social situation is terrible. This is due to the highly conservative culture as well as the high amounts of rape and anti-social elements :(. As a result, women here are not so easy to pick up because they are extremely and I mean extremely high on guard towards complete strangers. Besides that there are religious issues and tons of other crap. Not that its the girls fault. Its just the media and the poor social norms.Apart from that, casual intimacy is treated quite negatively(and i mean a guy can go to jail for it too, if the girl makes a legal issue out of it)I'm not talking about a social pro, I am talking about guys like me who are just learning pickup. I'm in a dillemma as to what is to be done. Hence, it would be
really nice if you could put up an article on how to pick up and go forward with Indian women. I mean, I read somewhere that you had visited Mumbai.
Thanks in advance Chase, keep up the good work :).

Chase Amante's picture


I myself have yet to visit India, and the Indian women I've met / dated / slept with outside of India are probably a misrepresentative (i.e., very Westernized) sample of what Indian women are like on whole... so I can't weigh in here personally with anything outside of rampant speculation and conclusions jumped to. However, I do have a note on our topics list for an article on Indian women - as soon as I find someone competent to write an article on them, we'll get one up!

Meanwhile, I might suggest from what I've heard, though, that you aim more for the Westernized parts of Mumbai - that's where you're more likely to meet Westernized / liberalized Indian women you'll have an easier time with... even if these are not your ideal types, they'll give you the chance to practice you need to level up your general seduction skills, and that'll make you more charming and more irresistible to all women - even the conservative ones. I've heard various Indian men say that in the more Western areas of Mumbai, the Indian women behave more or less the same as Western women.


Anonymous's picture

Dear Chase,
Thank You for your reply
Yes you are right about that, I should probably focus on those types of girls. There are such girls here, although not in abundance.
Once I get my fundamentals down, I hope to use them in nightclubs and maybe some day game :).
Keep up the good work on your site Chase...cheers :D

Wes's picture

Thanks for your reply on the other two articles I commented on.
This one is insightful too, although I wish it could've come sooner. I've been avoiding this beautiful girl on our school's volleyball team all semester because she was always surrounded by a group of basketball guys.
I would've done it if they weren't respected but these guys looked like close friends AND they were skyscrapers. I admit I was just too scared.

On BEING the acquaintance, Many times I've met girls around campus or various places and things are going alright. Sometimes I get the number, sometimes I don't...and then whenever I see them again I have no idea how to handle anything. This may seem like common sense to you but I've tried multiple times to "catch up" and something feels off.
You mostly show us how to meet girls and handling our first interaction with them but what if during your first interaction, you don't get to set up a date or get a number due to there being a break in conversation? (she has to go to class or she has to leave) what do you talk about and how is the conversation supposed to go when you run into them again?
So far one of two scenarios happen everytime.

1) I met the girl before. I got her phone number. I didn't text her at all. Or she never replied to my icebreaker text. I run into her again. I have no idea what to talk about since I did all of my basic deep diving during the first meeting or I hardly remember what we talked about. I proceed to deep dive again. I end up finding out information I was already supposed to know and girl seems annoyed like: "I thought we talked about this already". OR I'm suggesting we hang out but of course they decline because there doesn't seem to be any sort of connection between us and the magic (if there was any) from the first interaction seems lost and their excitement for me has cooled down.

2) I met the girl before. I didn't get her phone number because either she was in a rush and I didn't build a strong enough connection to take the number. I run into her again. I have no idea what to talk about. I usually just ask for their name again because I usually forget it. I seem like a jerk because I couldn't even remember their name and they are just another face in the crowd to me. I try to make small talk as if we are familiar with each other but the fact is we're not because our first interaction was short and we really are just strangers still.
I've decided to just ignore these girls when I see them. Everything I try seems to go nowhere.

This might seem like common sense to everyone else on dealing with this but I'm still socially awkward when it comes to this.
If you've seen me at school, you'd see me saying hi and waving to people who I've only spoken to for less than a minute and acting as if I'm on such good grounds with them that I can wave to them. Some usually greet me back politely and others just ignore me like: "why are we saying hi to one another? We don't even know each other"

Thanks in advance for all your help. I really don't want to go another day doing some of my weird socially awkward habits. (and there's more believe it or not)


Alpineshrubs's picture

Simply ITS ON TO The NEXt ONe. If it doesnt work out. And as a matter of fact i try not to hang around or talk to girls that like hanging around guys it makes you loose respect. Try not to smile that much when you talk to her too so she knows you mean business and your a serious person this might make you get laid but wont make you date her cuz u sound like she's way off ur league. Jst try to be serious like frowning kind of wen u approach her next tym bt if doesnt work out then dont spend time fantasizin ova one gal. Just move on to d next.

Chase Amante's picture


Personally, I'd normally just go Alpineshrubs's route and forget about a girl I didn't hit it off with the first time. She'll either come around and start chasing, or she won't - there are plenty more girls to meet.

However, if you want to move forward with a girl who isn't feeling you that much socially, your best bet is to invite them to social functions and try to use that time with them to change their perceptions of you - e.g., invite them to parties, group dinners, etc. Even then, you're fighting an uphill battle, and your time will generally better be spent finding new prospects. Still, if you want the experience, want to push your limits, or really have an eye for a specific girl, you can always give this one a shot - much of the time she'll end up just treating you like a really nice friend or boyfriend prospect, but sometimes you can put together the right mix of social proof, preselection, and scarcity on these outings that the girl will come out of it thinking she had you all wrong, and suddenly feeling a surge of attraction for you.


Wes's picture

Thanks for your reply.
I see how that'd work and everything but i feel like I still don't know what to do. The 1) and 2) are examples of what usually happens everytime with ANY of the girls I meet because the fact is, I'm good at first impressions....but as soon as I meet up with them a second time, whether it be at school or outside of school, I mess things up.
Put short, my underlying social awkwardness shines through.
This site has helped me a TON with approaching girls, attracting girls, getting girls numbers, getting dates set up, etc. basically making your first impression a good one. And while there is content on "first date strategies" and "pulling towards first date sex", I find that there is not much content on the conversational aspect of first dates.
Normally you'd want to deep dive, yes. But what if you've already dived pretty deep during your first meeting? What else do you talk about?
how do you bring back that magic that was lost from the first meeting?


Chase Amante's picture


It sounds like you mainly need two things: stronger closing / follow up, and better memory for what you talked about.

The first is just following your process more specifically. Make sure you get agreements to go on a date, then phone numbers, from girls you like, when you meet them, and then follow up with them right away to schedule the date (icebreaker text within 3 to 4 hours; "let's get it scheduled" text 1 to 3 days later).

When you meet up with girls for the date (or socially, in the case of social circle girls you're slow-gaming or couldn't grab contact details from for whatever reason the first time around), try to have a rough memory of what you talked about with them last time. Taking notes will help this immensely. If you write out a field report for every interaction you have, for instance, and try to get down every detail you remember, you'll find your memory about what you've been told very rapidly improves - even if you stop writing field reports later, you'll have trained yourself to just remember tons, and you'll keep that ability so long as you're routinely meeting new people. Another trick you can use is jotting down notes about a girl immediately after meeting her - open a notepad on your phone or jot down some notes in your contact book if you grabbed her number, and list the 3 to 5 most important things about herself she told you. Just the act of remembering and writing these down will etch them a lot more firmly into your mind, and if you need to remember things about her later - what you talked about last time, and what you ought to ask her about THIS time - you've got them all right there in your notes.


Wes's picture

Thanks! That helps a lot. Doing that from now on.

CoolSmoove's picture


I've been seeing this older woman (28 years old) for around three months now and she has everything I'm looking for in a girlfriend. Bedded her on the second meeting...would've took her to bed on the first but had some projects to complete for classes so had to cut it short. While seeing her I've been meeting new women as well, working on different aspects of "game" and improving as much as I can. Everytime she comes over, we have sex and it's great! Great conversation and I enjoy her company as well. Been seeing her once every other week due to me being busy with other things. I can tell she's grown attached to me. It's cool, I like her too. Set up a meet last week, along the lines of:

Me: Good afternoon _____ :) Hope you enjoyed your Thanksgiving! Mines was cool, definitely different! Let's hang out today. I get off around 6. Let me know if today is good for you.

Her: Hey CoolSmoove. My thanksgiving was good, and I'm glad you enjoyed yours. I've been thinking and I do need to step back and leave things were they are.

Me: Okay, help me to understand why are you saying this and feeling this way.

Her: I just feel like our hanging out is never really hanging out. It always goes in that direction. I don't like that feeling. You told me if I thought about withholding from you that we should just part ways ( Thinking she's looking to push for a relationship. Not the first time she's felt like this)

Me: I understand. How about we discuss this in person when you're free so there wont be any misunderstandings and we'll go from there. We can meet at a restaraunt if you don't trust me :)

Her: Okay that's fine! It probably won't be this weekend though... Back and forth to the hospital let me know how your schedule for next week is

Tuesday comes

Her: Hey do you mind if we reschedule?

Me: That's cool with me _______!

Her: Thanks

20 min later...

Her: I'm sorry trying to locate my aunt's husband.. They have been looking for him since Friday, because they can't make any decisions without him

Me: No worries Anitra, I understand. Family always come first. Hope everything's alright!

Her: No, they can't do anything major decision without him authorizing it. And his ass has gotten ghost they have moved her and everything.

Me: I can only imagine the amount of frustration that's causing. Is your aunt doing better?

Her: She is doing more movement but she is not processing anything

Me: Sorry to hear that about your aunt. You're a strong woman ___, continue to stay strong! Hoping things get better for you and the fam :)

Her: Thank CoolSmoove! It will I'm praying for her!

And I left it at that. Rescheduling once i get some time on my hands. She's been stressing about that, which kind of puts me in an awkward position. I guess my question, what would be the best way to handle this and address the matter at hand when we meet? What's your take on this? Although I care about her I'm cool if we end up being in a relationship after this meeting and if not, that's cool too. Any other input is welcome as well.



Chase Amante's picture


Yeah, you'll go through this with relationships where you've been kept good control on and the girl reaches the point where she wants something more and doesn't think she can get it. The two ways to play it are either to just be totally understanding and nonchalant, while leaving the door open, and chances are she'll go date some nice guy for a while, get bored, and come back to you again 3 to 6 months later and pick up where she left off; or, you can start investing more heavily in her, and tell her you'll come to visit her - she'll be surprised, but happy, and then the relationship's back on, only with the two of you now on more even footing, and more in "serious relationship" territory.

Do be aware that once most women start hitting 28 or so, it's now "serious boyfriend / marriage time", and they are thinking long and hard about the future. If you don't seem like you could be "it", they often won't want to stick around... so bear that in mind for what you're getting into if you decide to pursue as a serious relationship where you're now investing more (she will want your investment to continue increasing, up to and including marriage / a life together).


Troy's picture

Hey Chase, ive got to all this info to analyze and its very educational. I saw your last reply to me and i joined back in the conversation on "Youre Not That Special (Neither Is She" article!

The advice you give on this site when relating to conversation is to get to know the girl faster, deep dive about more personal topics and move the interaction forward quickly.

This all sounds like a gold pot ive discovered, however when i think back to my personal experiences, the conversation that i have with girls ive known for a long time seem to be boring or getting shorter; as if we have talked about everything past, present and future topics.

Not only that, also when im talking to a new girl and i feel that every word out my mouth just doesnt move the girl emotionally. Its as if these new girls i meet are always on autopilot when they meet guys that do something off eg. boring talk, offensive gossip e.t.c...

How do i get girls out of autopilot conversation?
How do i practise my game when its like girls wont spend 5 minutes talking to me in conversation? Most of the girls that i approach, i talk to while we are both seated ( it helps me feel less nervous ) and i feel like im chasing like crazy because of the short as possible answers i get when trying to deep dive, their body language is turned away from me and they seem ready to leave at the nearest opportunity. Now i see some guys that girls never seem TO lose interest in even if the guy has never taken the girl to bed ( she hugs, kisses, flirts e.t.c. with him) and i can tell that these guys dont seem to use much except for teasing girls, giving them jokes every 2 sentences, and being a fun guy. I think if i could just hack a way to get girls out of autopilot, play on their emotions, then move them and go into good conversation and give them a great time, that most of my concerns and other guys efforts and results to seduce a girl would go sky. The question im asking you chase is how do i take girls out of autopilot ( and interested chasing me) so everything falls in place? I dont see anyone else on here talking about this so ill give my experience on this. its as if a girl doesnt acknowledge a man, if he doesnt affect her emotionally and get her to stop what she is doing at all then the man cannot move forward with a girl. Ive seen it that a lot of the fear from approaching a girl may come that thinking a girl wont consider them; ( a man dont know how to get the girl on the same page with him ) many times i fear talking to a girl because i dont know how to get her out of autopilot and what to do after i have her off autopilot. Im not sure what it is so id love to hear your insightful information on this crucial part to getting girls!
Thanks in advance !


Chase Amante's picture


Conversation with girls you've known for a long time mostly depends on how interesting they are, and how interested in talking to you they are. If they're boring people, they'll never have anything interesting to say; or, if they don't care to talk to you for whatever reason, they won't either. However, if they like talking to you, and they lead interesting lives and do interesting things, and you do as well and connect back with them and ask them about what they're telling you, you'll never run out of conversation.

It might just be that you either need more interesting gal pals, or need to turn yourself more into the kind of guy that women like talking to; either one, probably reread the article on female friends.

As for breaking girls you've just met out of autopilot and into real conversation, that's called reaching the hook point, and it's mostly to do with whether you've made yourself into the kind of man whom woment want to meet... or not. When your fundamentals are down well enough that women find you attractive on approach, you will hook them almost instantly; when they're not, you can talk and talk and talk all you want, to no avail - they still won't be interested. You can't talk people into liking you - you've got to go become what they like.

Focus on your fundamentals. Make yourself as attractive and engaging a guy as you can; if you're not an attractive, engaging guy yet, forget about deep diving, because nobody wants to open her heart up to someone she doesn't find interesting or exciting. List out all the things you need to improve that will make you more attractive to women in the first 5 seconds of meeting them - eye contact, walk, facial expressions, smile, clothes, posture, body language, voice, gestures, hairstyle, facial hair, sprezzatura, social proof, preselection, etc. - and start knocking them out of the park.

Get that down, and you can be the most boring guy in the world conversationally and women will still hang around and stare at you with doe eyes.


Jamess's picture

Hello Chase,

One aspect I've always had a difficult time grasping, and perhaps it overlaps into the macro level of game itself and what's going on in an intimate relationship from an analytical point of view, is the concept of leading. No doubt leadership is a trait and in a relationship one person is leading more than the other. The part I feel is elusive is when you talk about her trying to take control or disrupting your leadership. It's hard for me to grasp that in real-time and why it's happening, and it goes the same for many other tests that women throw out. How do I know how much or how to lead? The last girl I dated would always say she wanted to do xyz with me or invite me to some event. Sometimes it seemed genuine as we would pass by a theme park and she would say let's go there on this day. Other gurus (although I'm believing less in other "gurus") talk about how girls will change plans or ask you to meet them somewhere else as a test and that you need to maintain the leadership control but I don't really understand why. Most women who are popular and like going out to do things are usually the ones planning and leading the activities in a relationship. Then there's also the type of leading where the leader is moderating rather than making the decisions, for example by giving choices to the girl rather than deciding outright -- is that ideal or not?

On a side tangent, at what point does a guy stop leading when he's dating a girl? Does he always need to be the one calling/texting first and asking the girl out on a date (assuming she isn't doing any of this and at times may even be playing hard to get)? When should he expect the girl to start texting first and is it different in a FWB situation since it's no longer a courtship?

Chase Amante's picture


This'd be a good one to flesh out into an article of it's own - I've noted it down in the article queue.

True leading is as much about delegation as it is being at the front of the army yourself. Some guys seem to think that "be the leader" means you have to physically do everything or personally decide everything yourself. That's micromanagement, which is amateur leadership, and it violates the Law of Least Effort - you come out of it looking like a novice (and you're actually easier to control when you lead this way - the moment you get tired or let your guard down and she starts leading the charge, both you and her will know she's usurped power from you, because your leadership style is to always be at the forefront and now you're not).

If you have an active, spontaneous girl with lots of ideas (my preferred kind), you can delegate decision making to them and/or decide on and pass judgment on requests brought to you, and you will both retain leadership and have an easier life / relationship.

That's like this:

[walking by movie theater]

Girl: Do you want to go see the new Thor movie??!! I want to see that!

You: [stopping to think for a moment] Hmm, yeah, sure - that'd be cool. Let's do it.


You: I do, but I'm super hungry right now - why don't we check what times it's showing at, go get dinner, and then come back and watch it?


You: I'm so not into CGI superhero movies... I don't know, just not my thing. I'll see that crime drama with you if you want though.

Any of those is fine. The only way you relinquish leadership here is if you do either the "I'm going to take charge like a dominant alpha male the instant she suggests something!" thing where she says, "Do you want to..." and before she even finishes her sentence and without a moment's thought you say, "That's a GREAT idea, let's do it!" and totally 180 on whatever you were doing before to go do that instead (e.g., flip-flop because you think you have to to look "strong"), OR if you do the "Maaaaaaan, I reeeeeally don't want to... but fiiiiiiiiiine" thing where you grumble a bit but agree. Basically, anything that makes you seem like you're catering to her whims or doing something you don't want to do yourself makes you look weak; anything else, and you're fine.

Or, if she says she wants to get something, and implies she wants you to come with her, that doesn't mean you need to take charge and lead her there if it's extra work for you that there's no reason for you to do (or you're tired or busy). Instead, you can easily say something like, "Okay - well, it's right over there!" and let her go get / do / buy the thing herself without needing you to walk her over.

Think of it like the male lion who heads his own pride. He doesn't lead most of the hunting expeditions, except on some especially large game - most of the time, he chills out while the females go do the hunting, then bring him the meat. He also doesn't rear the lion cubs - they'll play on him and tug at his tail, but again, the females do all the rearing. The only thing he mostly does is patrol the borders, kick out male lion competitors or enemies like hyenas and lycaons, eat, rest, and mate with the females to produce more lion cubs.

If girls invite you to events you don't want to go to, thank them for the invite and pass. If the change where they want to meet you, if it isn't an inconvenience to you, and you're fine with the other place, say yeah, no problem; if it is, and you don't want to go, say "why don't we just meet another day" or "actually, I really wanted to have a Potbelly sandwich - not really in the mood to go out if we're not having that - I can just meet you some other time."

If she doesn't text to meet up, you'll have to text her when you want to meet up; different girls have different patterns - some will text you all the time to meet, while others will always wait for you 100% of the time. Some girls will text you more when they feel like you will always say "yes", and quit texting entirely if you say "no" even a few times because they can't handle rejection. Some won't care and will text obsessively. Many who previously texted you will die down their texting and stop altogether if they feel like the relationship is failing or you "just aren't that into them." Some girls will be crazy about you and never text you, because they don't want to bother you or risk rejection from you, or they simply learned that a lady never asks a man out.

Rather than remembering a bunch of rules, the best way to deal with this kind of thing is just to monitor your emotions and do what you feel like doing. If she proposes or reschedules something, and you feel "Yeah!" then go do it. If she proposes or reschedules and you feel "Eh..." then decline. Stick to the "follow your gut" rule and you'll be a natural leader; the men women don't like are the ones who subsume their own wants slavishly to their women because they feel like they "have to" to not lose the girl or hurt her feelings.


Anonymous's picture

Sup chase. Id Mike to know... Sometimes i want a good girl and sometimes i want a bad girl. Sometimes i want a confident one and at other times a submissive. Im sure many of the more promiscuous women out there feel the same way. Will this ever change? Are people like this bad for mariage?

Chase Amante's picture


That's the effect of acclimation and/or mood. "The grass is always greener", so to speak. If you date a submissive woman for a while, you'll tend to start getting bored of how easy things are and how uninteresting the conversation is and how little she challenges you, and you'll start to long for a firecracker. Date a firecracker for a while, and you'll start to get annoyed at how much drama she is, and how high maintenance she can be, and how moody she is, and long for a quiet submissive girl who will just sit around and wait patiently for you and not try to test your or control you. Same deal with good girls / bad girls, and it can be mood related, too. If you're feeling weak and sick, you might want a "good girl" who can nurture you and make you feel loved. If you're feeling horny and powerful and strong, you might want a "bad girl" you can do all kinds of nasty things with and have her LOVE it and throw herself in with reckless abandon in a way that a "good girl" simply can't.

Everyone's like this - men, women, good girls, bad girls, good men, bad men, confident, unconfident - we all have moods where we want different things, and we acclimate to what we have and want something different. Then we switch partners, are happy for a while, and then want the other thing we used to have and start fantasizing about that again. That's kind of just how it goes.

If you're looking at marriage / long-term commitment, accepting that you are that way and she is this way is just part-and-parcel of the whole long-term-monogamy thing. There is some subsuming of natural urges that go into these relationships - everyone has them; they exist for biological reasons; but a monogamous relationship only works if you set aside certain of your wants and just soldier through (there are some things you can do that take some of the edge off too, like role playing / travel / doing exciting things together / etc. - have your submissive girl act naughty or your firecracker act submissive, for instance).


Anonymous's picture

I'm sure you've already heard this, but I gotta say you make great comments. One exception to what you've written in "Grass is greener" I feel is that not everyone needs that variety that you speak of, of course to varying degrees. My feeling is that it's the more high-maintenance and uninhibited types of people who need the variety, whereas the types who are happy with simple, "boring" lives are completely satisfied with everything they have. Unfortunately, those % of people are at least less than half the population. Assuming your girl has those needs, how do you suggest reading what she needs at any given time?

I wrote a comment awhile ago asking how good guys with an edge could ever compete with bad boys on a certain level. I don't remember your answer exactly but it didn't seem satisfying (sorry chase! maybe you're right but also I understand you're not an oracle). Going back to "the effect of acclimation," if a girl is in a relationship with a good guy with an edge, isn't it bound to get comfortable or boring esp. once you get married and have kids? Like I said before, how can a guy with an edge compete with a bad boy at providing excitement and care-freeness? Women are often attracted to bad boys because they wake a girl up from an otherwise routine or stressful life and the bad boy (and we're talking about the deadbeat types) is 100% excitement and carefree because he doesn't give a shit about anything and lives in the moment. A good guy with an edge, can be edgy, but he will never be AS edgy as the bad boy purely in those respects because he IS responsible, ambitious, and cares about life. Like you said, many women acclimate, so for this reason, do I need to be concerned about a partner being drawn towards a bad boy? I do feel that a certain type of women is more likely to even consider being with a bad boy, would you agree? The confident, party-girl types are almost always with bad boys whereas good girls sometimes will date them for short periods and some good girls just aren't even attracted to bad boys at all. I'm starting to see a correlation where the former types are the types of girls who aren't quite relationship material. Why don't they date good, edgy guys who are just as confident but have so much more? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's because good edgy guys aren't bad boys. I even sometimes get the impression that it's some sort of statement to society showing how cool these girls are (these are usually the confident girls who treat their "bad boy" like he's cute and harmless, and see him as a project, rather than the dominant alpha who needs to be tamed, although in these cases the bad boy usually acts sweet to her.)

Which brings me to my next point, that women, when asked why they're attracted to bad boys, say it's because they desire to change him. Maybe this is something I'll never understand as a man, but where does that leave guys like us who have their shit together and are successful? Is she going to leave me because I'm the one who changes myself? Does it make a woman feel special to be with a loser because he sort of needs her more or something? Why would a girl be more attracted to a man who is less desired by women and society, and really has no potential? Or again is it only certain types of women who are more susceptible to fall into this trap because they want to feel special or have a desire to fix a wounded thing, or don't want to be with a successful edgy man for whatever reason. I understand how running away with no money for love can be enticing for both men and women, but what I don't understand is how a smart, classy woman could relate to and have a lifestyle with someone who's dumb, not classy, talks in slang and isn't attractive to people in her league. Can fun really make up for everything that's lacking or is it temporary fix like you explained? I'm not sure if you've written an article about how some women, whether it be due to her father's personality, daddy issues, or self-esteem issues to name a few, are addicted to bad boys for those reasons or so I've heard, so maybe it's not entirely about a man's overall value. Let me ask you this though, respectfully, if a bad boy is so successful with women, should I be reading his website or yours? Should I be completely inhibited and throw my life away (or living within means)?

Didn't mean to write this long of a post, but I started to see some nuances that I felt were interesting and important. I assure you none of this was a rant or anything, I'm just trying to figure out what to take away from this. Thanks for your input.

Chase Amante's picture


There are exceptions, yeah - emotionally / sexually repressed people will not allow themselves to experience their "grass is greener" emotions, and will repress them instead. There are also very low sex drive people, who simply do not need sex very much, and do not spend much time wanting or thinking about sex or sex partners or thrilling or exciting things - they just have zero desire to seek novelty, don't want it, and don't care for it.

Many guys tend to look for sexually repressed women as partners, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that these women WILL undergo sexual awakenings much of the time, regardless of how careful around them you are, if they have even a somewhat ordinary sex drive; and then, they become a lot less "manageable."

So, if dating a woman who doesn't experience this is important, I'd recommend people select for mates with low sex drives and low novelty-seeking behaviors (e.g., she shies away from new stimulation, exciting situations, meeting new people, etc.) - these are the only "guaranteed" people to not have to worry about this with.

My opinion on long-term monogamy is that it's healthier to think of relationships as two people coming together for a time to produce children and rear them, and to expect that there's a good-size chance those relationships will at some point dissolve once both parents are no longer needed to accomplish this.

Even if you're a bad boy yourself, once you've settled into a long-term monogamous relationship with her, you're no longer a bad boy to HER, and when she needs excitement, fresh bad boys will tempt her with a stronger dose of what she initially fell for in you but doesn't have nearly as much of anymore. Whether she gives into that or sticks around with you is dependent on her values and personality, her sex drive and degree of novelty-seeking, how tempting and enabling the situations she puts herself into are, and the strength and health of your relationship with her and how good a job (or not) you're doing then and there at the moment of providing for her emotional needs (the full gamut from excitement to stability).

Party girl types are certainly more likely to "give in" to the allure of bad boys; that's why I nix them myself for long-term consideration (see here : "Why I Quit Dating Girls Who Club, Party, or Drink").

What most guys define as "good girls" includes a broad spectrum of women, including:

  • Low sex drive, low novelty-seeking women
  • Sexually repressed women who have not been sexually awakened
  • Sexually awakened women who position themselves as "good girls"

Ironically, the ones who seem most disinterested in bad boys to the nice guys are the last ones, because they will vehemently tell men that they're only looking for something serious and only want a good guy and only care for commitment. They do this because they're experienced with men, talented at reading them, and know exactly what "good guys" want to hear. Less sexually experienced women are not nearly so opinionated (they don't have the experience base to have strong opinions on men, usually, and may never have dated anything but "good guys"), and frequently are intrigued by bad boys but scared to try them.

Re: women's desires to "change" men or "save" them, yes, this is pretty much universal, so far as I can tell. It can manifest in a number of ways - you can highlight your Byronic personality traits with women and be the broken man she's trying to heal (who can never really be fully healed); you can also just be a man with big dreams who's trying his heart out to achieve them, and pull her along for the ride with you, inspired by your dreams, and pushing you along and supporting you to help you succeed because she believes in you. If you have ZERO flaws though, and also zero AMBITION, then yeah… you will come across as pretty well vanilla-flavored to average- and higher sex drive women (but you can always still grab a low drive girl and pretty much be fine). However, you don't need to be on the extreme end of the spectrum with your flaws or ambition for a "regular girl", either - you don't have to be, say, a convicted felon who can't keep himself out of jail, or a billions-or-bust Silicon Valley entrepreneur who dreams of beating Elon Musk to Mars. You could just be a guy she's always trying to tame and get to spend a little more time at home than she can quite get him to, or a guy who's dreaming of getting his writing to take off or freeing himself from the 9-to-5 with his lifestyle business to enable himself and his family to let him travel the world.

Just keep this in mind: no on-off switches. It's not black and white. Women aren't sitting there trying to decide, "Hmm… do I want to date prison inmates, or do I want to date holy reverends?"

Just don't be boring, don't be uninspiring, and don't be dream-less and ambition-less, and DO be realistic in your choice of women depending on whom you are and who you want to be. If you want a sex-crazy nymphomaniac to be your monogamous wife of 40 years, then YES, you need to be the baddest bad boy on planet Earth, because only then do you stand a chance of holding her interest anywhere near that long. But, if you want a girl of average sex drive and average novelty-seeking to fulfill that role, then you don't need to be nearly quite so bad.

And if you don't want to do ANY work, and are more the sit and home and relax by the fire reading the evening newspaper sort yourself, look for quiet, reserved, low-drive low-novelty-seeking women who are going to be perfectly content to sit there right next to you each and every night, content in the knowledge that so long as you're there, they're happy.


Anonymous's picture


So, as winter break started for my college I started texting this girl. Problem is that school doesn't start until the 8th, she lives in a diffrent state, and worst I've been texting her almost everyday trying to keep some kind of conversation going. Now Im afraid I got myself into the acquaintance group and the attracted expiration date is almost here. Is there any hope?

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