How to Pick Up Girls in Front of Their Male Friends | Girls Chase

How to Pick Up Girls in Front of Their Male Friends

pick up girls with male friendsIn "Effort Aversion: Or, Why You Don't Work Hard and Get Laid", Gem asks the following about picking up girls with male friends or orbiters around:

Chase is there a way to efficiently approach girls who have orbiters with them; the problem here is sort of congruent to approaching a set I would think where it's tough to make a smooth natural approach because it isn't one on one.

Lately I've been seeing a lot of girls with orbiters at the gym (it's quite sad really), and my standard approach here has always been to wait till the orbiter goes to drink water or use a separate machine and meet the girl in that break that she is alone. If the guy comes back he may come back or stay away and if he comes and she thinks they're good "friends" she might introduce him (or otherwise ignore him; it makes no difference once I've met the girl).

A great girl I met yesterday took me a long time to approach because her orbiter was with her forever watching her squat ass to grass and not even working out haha. The girl and I met eyes several times but I couldn't approach till the guy went to get water. Finally I met the girl and moved things forward and the guy didn't come back but I remember kicking myself at how long it took and if there were a better way I could think of to do the whole approach would have went for it right then

-Gem

Approaching girls with male friends hanging around. It's something that can scare you off of approaching at all, at least early on.

Yet, this one's far from impossible, and you may even find yourself getting a kick out of doing it if you're of a competitive nature.

Sometimes it's just fun watching that other guy's jaw drop in frustration and awe as you sweep in and make the kind of connection with a girl in minutes he's been working months to have... and then ask her out and get a "yes."

Of course, there's some nuance here - and chief among the details you need to mind is whether the girl respects the guy or not... and if so, how much.

Because how she thinks about, feels toward, and treats him is going to have big implications for the kind of approach you need to do to make the kind of headway with her you want to make.

Mess it up, and she may friend zone you fast... or reject you outright.

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his Mastery Package.

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase, I am a 22 year old guy from Mumbai, India. I am a regular reader of the articles of your site and I must say you are doing a splendid job. Your articles have offered me various insights in the social arts. I was extremely dumb, socially, before I read your articles and sadly I have committed almost all the mistakes with girls that you could list on your site, which makes me feel terrible, however I am working upon my fundamentals at the moment.
My request to you is that in India, the social situation is terrible. This is due to the highly conservative culture as well as the high amounts of rape and anti-social elements :(. As a result, women here are not so easy to pick up because they are extremely and I mean extremely high on guard towards complete strangers. Besides that there are religious issues and tons of other crap. Not that its the girls fault. Its just the media and the poor social norms.Apart from that, casual intimacy is treated quite negatively(and i mean a guy can go to jail for it too, if the girl makes a legal issue out of it)I'm not talking about a social pro, I am talking about guys like me who are just learning pickup. I'm in a dillemma as to what is to be done. Hence, it would be
really nice if you could put up an article on how to pick up and go forward with Indian women. I mean, I read somewhere that you had visited Mumbai.
Thanks in advance Chase, keep up the good work :).

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anon-

I myself have yet to visit India, and the Indian women I've met / dated / slept with outside of India are probably a misrepresentative (i.e., very Westernized) sample of what Indian women are like on whole... so I can't weigh in here personally with anything outside of rampant speculation and conclusions jumped to. However, I do have a note on our topics list for an article on Indian women - as soon as I find someone competent to write an article on them, we'll get one up!

Meanwhile, I might suggest from what I've heard, though, that you aim more for the Westernized parts of Mumbai - that's where you're more likely to meet Westernized / liberalized Indian women you'll have an easier time with... even if these are not your ideal types, they'll give you the chance to practice you need to level up your general seduction skills, and that'll make you more charming and more irresistible to all women - even the conservative ones. I've heard various Indian men say that in the more Western areas of Mumbai, the Indian women behave more or less the same as Western women.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Dear Chase,
Thank You for your reply
Yes you are right about that, I should probably focus on those types of girls. There are such girls here, although not in abundance.
Once I get my fundamentals down, I hope to use them in nightclubs and maybe some day game :).
Keep up the good work on your site Chase...cheers :D

Wes's picture

Thanks for your reply on the other two articles I commented on.
This one is insightful too, although I wish it could've come sooner. I've been avoiding this beautiful girl on our school's volleyball team all semester because she was always surrounded by a group of basketball guys.
I would've done it if they weren't respected but these guys looked like close friends AND they were skyscrapers. I admit I was just too scared.

On BEING the acquaintance, Many times I've met girls around campus or various places and things are going alright. Sometimes I get the number, sometimes I don't...and then whenever I see them again I have no idea how to handle anything. This may seem like common sense to you but I've tried multiple times to "catch up" and something feels off.
You mostly show us how to meet girls and handling our first interaction with them but what if during your first interaction, you don't get to set up a date or get a number due to there being a break in conversation? (she has to go to class or she has to leave) what do you talk about and how is the conversation supposed to go when you run into them again?
So far one of two scenarios happen everytime.
Either:

1) I met the girl before. I got her phone number. I didn't text her at all. Or she never replied to my icebreaker text. I run into her again. I have no idea what to talk about since I did all of my basic deep diving during the first meeting or I hardly remember what we talked about. I proceed to deep dive again. I end up finding out information I was already supposed to know and girl seems annoyed like: "I thought we talked about this already". OR I'm suggesting we hang out but of course they decline because there doesn't seem to be any sort of connection between us and the magic (if there was any) from the first interaction seems lost and their excitement for me has cooled down.

2) I met the girl before. I didn't get her phone number because either she was in a rush and I didn't build a strong enough connection to take the number. I run into her again. I have no idea what to talk about. I usually just ask for their name again because I usually forget it. I seem like a jerk because I couldn't even remember their name and they are just another face in the crowd to me. I try to make small talk as if we are familiar with each other but the fact is we're not because our first interaction was short and we really are just strangers still.
I've decided to just ignore these girls when I see them. Everything I try seems to go nowhere.

This might seem like common sense to everyone else on dealing with this but I'm still socially awkward when it comes to this.
If you've seen me at school, you'd see me saying hi and waving to people who I've only spoken to for less than a minute and acting as if I'm on such good grounds with them that I can wave to them. Some usually greet me back politely and others just ignore me like: "why are we saying hi to one another? We don't even know each other"

Thanks in advance for all your help. I really don't want to go another day doing some of my weird socially awkward habits. (and there's more believe it or not)

Wes

Alpineshrubs's picture

Simply ITS ON TO The NEXt ONe. If it doesnt work out. And as a matter of fact i try not to hang around or talk to girls that like hanging around guys it makes you loose respect. Try not to smile that much when you talk to her too so she knows you mean business and your a serious person this might make you get laid but wont make you date her cuz u sound like she's way off ur league. Jst try to be serious like frowning kind of wen u approach her next tym bt if doesnt work out then dont spend time fantasizin ova one gal. Just move on to d next.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Wes-

Personally, I'd normally just go Alpineshrubs's route and forget about a girl I didn't hit it off with the first time. She'll either come around and start chasing, or she won't - there are plenty more girls to meet.

However, if you want to move forward with a girl who isn't feeling you that much socially, your best bet is to invite them to social functions and try to use that time with them to change their perceptions of you - e.g., invite them to parties, group dinners, etc. Even then, you're fighting an uphill battle, and your time will generally better be spent finding new prospects. Still, if you want the experience, want to push your limits, or really have an eye for a specific girl, you can always give this one a shot - much of the time she'll end up just treating you like a really nice friend or boyfriend prospect, but sometimes you can put together the right mix of social proof, preselection, and scarcity on these outings that the girl will come out of it thinking she had you all wrong, and suddenly feeling a surge of attraction for you.

Chase

Wes's picture

Thanks for your reply.
I see how that'd work and everything but i feel like I still don't know what to do. The 1) and 2) are examples of what usually happens everytime with ANY of the girls I meet because the fact is, I'm good at first impressions....but as soon as I meet up with them a second time, whether it be at school or outside of school, I mess things up.
Put short, my underlying social awkwardness shines through.
This site has helped me a TON with approaching girls, attracting girls, getting girls numbers, getting dates set up, etc. basically making your first impression a good one. And while there is content on "first date strategies" and "pulling towards first date sex", I find that there is not much content on the conversational aspect of first dates.
Normally you'd want to deep dive, yes. But what if you've already dived pretty deep during your first meeting? What else do you talk about?
how do you bring back that magic that was lost from the first meeting?

Wes.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Wes-

It sounds like you mainly need two things: stronger closing / follow up, and better memory for what you talked about.

The first is just following your process more specifically. Make sure you get agreements to go on a date, then phone numbers, from girls you like, when you meet them, and then follow up with them right away to schedule the date (icebreaker text within 3 to 4 hours; "let's get it scheduled" text 1 to 3 days later).

When you meet up with girls for the date (or socially, in the case of social circle girls you're slow-gaming or couldn't grab contact details from for whatever reason the first time around), try to have a rough memory of what you talked about with them last time. Taking notes will help this immensely. If you write out a field report for every interaction you have, for instance, and try to get down every detail you remember, you'll find your memory about what you've been told very rapidly improves - even if you stop writing field reports later, you'll have trained yourself to just remember tons, and you'll keep that ability so long as you're routinely meeting new people. Another trick you can use is jotting down notes about a girl immediately after meeting her - open a notepad on your phone or jot down some notes in your contact book if you grabbed her number, and list the 3 to 5 most important things about herself she told you. Just the act of remembering and writing these down will etch them a lot more firmly into your mind, and if you need to remember things about her later - what you talked about last time, and what you ought to ask her about THIS time - you've got them all right there in your notes.

Chase

Wes's picture

Thanks! That helps a lot. Doing that from now on.

CoolSmoove's picture

Chase,

I've been seeing this older woman (28 years old) for around three months now and she has everything I'm looking for in a girlfriend. Bedded her on the second meeting...would've took her to bed on the first but had some projects to complete for classes so had to cut it short. While seeing her I've been meeting new women as well, working on different aspects of "game" and improving as much as I can. Everytime she comes over, we have sex and it's great! Great conversation and I enjoy her company as well. Been seeing her once every other week due to me being busy with other things. I can tell she's grown attached to me. It's cool, I like her too. Set up a meet last week, along the lines of:

Me: Good afternoon _____ :) Hope you enjoyed your Thanksgiving! Mines was cool, definitely different! Let's hang out today. I get off around 6. Let me know if today is good for you.

Her: Hey CoolSmoove. My thanksgiving was good, and I'm glad you enjoyed yours. I've been thinking and I do need to step back and leave things were they are.

Me: Okay, help me to understand why are you saying this and feeling this way.

Her: I just feel like our hanging out is never really hanging out. It always goes in that direction. I don't like that feeling. You told me if I thought about withholding from you that we should just part ways ( Thinking she's looking to push for a relationship. Not the first time she's felt like this)

Me: I understand. How about we discuss this in person when you're free so there wont be any misunderstandings and we'll go from there. We can meet at a restaraunt if you don't trust me :)

Her: Okay that's fine! It probably won't be this weekend though... Back and forth to the hospital let me know how your schedule for next week is

Tuesday comes

Her: Hey do you mind if we reschedule?

Me: That's cool with me _______!

Her: Thanks

20 min later...

Her: I'm sorry trying to locate my aunt's husband.. They have been looking for him since Friday, because they can't make any decisions without him

Me: No worries Anitra, I understand. Family always come first. Hope everything's alright!

Her: No, they can't do anything major decision without him authorizing it. And his ass has gotten ghost they have moved her and everything.

Me: I can only imagine the amount of frustration that's causing. Is your aunt doing better?

Her: She is doing more movement but she is not processing anything

Me: Sorry to hear that about your aunt. You're a strong woman ___, continue to stay strong! Hoping things get better for you and the fam :)

Her: Thank CoolSmoove! It will I'm praying for her!

And I left it at that. Rescheduling once i get some time on my hands. She's been stressing about that, which kind of puts me in an awkward position. I guess my question, what would be the best way to handle this and address the matter at hand when we meet? What's your take on this? Although I care about her I'm cool if we end up being in a relationship after this meeting and if not, that's cool too. Any other input is welcome as well.

Cheers,

CoolSmoove

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Cool-

Yeah, you'll go through this with relationships where you've been kept good control on and the girl reaches the point where she wants something more and doesn't think she can get it. The two ways to play it are either to just be totally understanding and nonchalant, while leaving the door open, and chances are she'll go date some nice guy for a while, get bored, and come back to you again 3 to 6 months later and pick up where she left off; or, you can start investing more heavily in her, and tell her you'll come to visit her - she'll be surprised, but happy, and then the relationship's back on, only with the two of you now on more even footing, and more in "serious relationship" territory.

Do be aware that once most women start hitting 28 or so, it's now "serious boyfriend / marriage time", and they are thinking long and hard about the future. If you don't seem like you could be "it", they often won't want to stick around... so bear that in mind for what you're getting into if you decide to pursue as a serious relationship where you're now investing more (she will want your investment to continue increasing, up to and including marriage / a life together).

Chase

Troy's picture

Hey Chase, ive got to all this info to analyze and its very educational. I saw your last reply to me and i joined back in the conversation on "Youre Not That Special (Neither Is She" article!

The advice you give on this site when relating to conversation is to get to know the girl faster, deep dive about more personal topics and move the interaction forward quickly.

This all sounds like a gold pot ive discovered, however when i think back to my personal experiences, the conversation that i have with girls ive known for a long time seem to be boring or getting shorter; as if we have talked about everything past, present and future topics.

Not only that, also when im talking to a new girl and i feel that every word out my mouth just doesnt move the girl emotionally. Its as if these new girls i meet are always on autopilot when they meet guys that do something off eg. boring talk, offensive gossip e.t.c...

How do i get girls out of autopilot conversation?
How do i practise my game when its like girls wont spend 5 minutes talking to me in conversation? Most of the girls that i approach, i talk to while we are both seated ( it helps me feel less nervous ) and i feel like im chasing like crazy because of the short as possible answers i get when trying to deep dive, their body language is turned away from me and they seem ready to leave at the nearest opportunity. Now i see some guys that girls never seem TO lose interest in even if the guy has never taken the girl to bed ( she hugs, kisses, flirts e.t.c. with him) and i can tell that these guys dont seem to use much except for teasing girls, giving them jokes every 2 sentences, and being a fun guy. I think if i could just hack a way to get girls out of autopilot, play on their emotions, then move them and go into good conversation and give them a great time, that most of my concerns and other guys efforts and results to seduce a girl would go sky. The question im asking you chase is how do i take girls out of autopilot ( and interested chasing me) so everything falls in place? I dont see anyone else on here talking about this so ill give my experience on this. its as if a girl doesnt acknowledge a man, if he doesnt affect her emotionally and get her to stop what she is doing at all then the man cannot move forward with a girl. Ive seen it that a lot of the fear from approaching a girl may come that thinking a girl wont consider them; ( a man dont know how to get the girl on the same page with him ) many times i fear talking to a girl because i dont know how to get her out of autopilot and what to do after i have her off autopilot. Im not sure what it is so id love to hear your insightful information on this crucial part to getting girls!
Thanks in advance !

Troy

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Troy-

Conversation with girls you've known for a long time mostly depends on how interesting they are, and how interested in talking to you they are. If they're boring people, they'll never have anything interesting to say; or, if they don't care to talk to you for whatever reason, they won't either. However, if they like talking to you, and they lead interesting lives and do interesting things, and you do as well and connect back with them and ask them about what they're telling you, you'll never run out of conversation.

It might just be that you either need more interesting gal pals, or need to turn yourself more into the kind of guy that women like talking to; either one, probably reread the article on female friends.

As for breaking girls you've just met out of autopilot and into real conversation, that's called reaching the hook point, and it's mostly to do with whether you've made yourself into the kind of man whom woment want to meet... or not. When your fundamentals are down well enough that women find you attractive on approach, you will hook them almost instantly; when they're not, you can talk and talk and talk all you want, to no avail - they still won't be interested. You can't talk people into liking you - you've got to go become what they like.

Focus on your fundamentals. Make yourself as attractive and engaging a guy as you can; if you're not an attractive, engaging guy yet, forget about deep diving, because nobody wants to open her heart up to someone she doesn't find interesting or exciting. List out all the things you need to improve that will make you more attractive to women in the first 5 seconds of meeting them - eye contact, walk, facial expressions, smile, clothes, posture, body language, voice, gestures, hairstyle, facial hair, sprezzatura, social proof, preselection, etc. - and start knocking them out of the park.

Get that down, and you can be the most boring guy in the world conversationally and women will still hang around and stare at you with doe eyes.

Chase

Jamess's picture

Hello Chase,

One aspect I've always had a difficult time grasping, and perhaps it overlaps into the macro level of game itself and what's going on in an intimate relationship from an analytical point of view, is the concept of leading. No doubt leadership is a trait and in a relationship one person is leading more than the other. The part I feel is elusive is when you talk about her trying to take control or disrupting your leadership. It's hard for me to grasp that in real-time and why it's happening, and it goes the same for many other tests that women throw out. How do I know how much or how to lead? The last girl I dated would always say she wanted to do xyz with me or invite me to some event. Sometimes it seemed genuine as we would pass by a theme park and she would say let's go there on this day. Other gurus (although I'm believing less in other "gurus") talk about how girls will change plans or ask you to meet them somewhere else as a test and that you need to maintain the leadership control but I don't really understand why. Most women who are popular and like going out to do things are usually the ones planning and leading the activities in a relationship. Then there's also the type of leading where the leader is moderating rather than making the decisions, for example by giving choices to the girl rather than deciding outright -- is that ideal or not?

On a side tangent, at what point does a guy stop leading when he's dating a girl? Does he always need to be the one calling/texting first and asking the girl out on a date (assuming she isn't doing any of this and at times may even be playing hard to get)? When should he expect the girl to start texting first and is it different in a FWB situation since it's no longer a courtship?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

James-

This'd be a good one to flesh out into an article of it's own - I've noted it down in the article queue.

True leading is as much about delegation as it is being at the front of the army yourself. Some guys seem to think that "be the leader" means you have to physically do everything or personally decide everything yourself. That's micromanagement, which is amateur leadership, and it violates the Law of Least Effort - you come out of it looking like a novice (and you're actually easier to control when you lead this way - the moment you get tired or let your guard down and she starts leading the charge, both you and her will know she's usurped power from you, because your leadership style is to always be at the forefront and now you're not).

If you have an active, spontaneous girl with lots of ideas (my preferred kind), you can delegate decision making to them and/or decide on and pass judgment on requests brought to you, and you will both retain leadership and have an easier life / relationship.

That's like this:

[walking by movie theater]

Girl: Do you want to go see the new Thor movie??!! I want to see that!

You: [stopping to think for a moment] Hmm, yeah, sure - that'd be cool. Let's do it.

or

You: I do, but I'm super hungry right now - why don't we check what times it's showing at, go get dinner, and then come back and watch it?

or

You: I'm so not into CGI superhero movies... I don't know, just not my thing. I'll see that crime drama with you if you want though.

Any of those is fine. The only way you relinquish leadership here is if you do either the "I'm going to take charge like a dominant alpha male the instant she suggests something!" thing where she says, "Do you want to..." and before she even finishes her sentence and without a moment's thought you say, "That's a GREAT idea, let's do it!" and totally 180 on whatever you were doing before to go do that instead (e.g., flip-flop because you think you have to to look "strong"), OR if you do the "Maaaaaaan, I reeeeeally don't want to... but fiiiiiiiiiine" thing where you grumble a bit but agree. Basically, anything that makes you seem like you're catering to her whims or doing something you don't want to do yourself makes you look weak; anything else, and you're fine.

Or, if she says she wants to get something, and implies she wants you to come with her, that doesn't mean you need to take charge and lead her there if it's extra work for you that there's no reason for you to do (or you're tired or busy). Instead, you can easily say something like, "Okay - well, it's right over there!" and let her go get / do / buy the thing herself without needing you to walk her over.

Think of it like the male lion who heads his own pride. He doesn't lead most of the hunting expeditions, except on some especially large game - most of the time, he chills out while the females go do the hunting, then bring him the meat. He also doesn't rear the lion cubs - they'll play on him and tug at his tail, but again, the females do all the rearing. The only thing he mostly does is patrol the borders, kick out male lion competitors or enemies like hyenas and lycaons, eat, rest, and mate with the females to produce more lion cubs.

If girls invite you to events you don't want to go to, thank them for the invite and pass. If the change where they want to meet you, if it isn't an inconvenience to you, and you're fine with the other place, say yeah, no problem; if it is, and you don't want to go, say "why don't we just meet another day" or "actually, I really wanted to have a Potbelly sandwich - not really in the mood to go out if we're not having that - I can just meet you some other time."

If she doesn't text to meet up, you'll have to text her when you want to meet up; different girls have different patterns - some will text you all the time to meet, while others will always wait for you 100% of the time. Some girls will text you more when they feel like you will always say "yes", and quit texting entirely if you say "no" even a few times because they can't handle rejection. Some won't care and will text obsessively. Many who previously texted you will die down their texting and stop altogether if they feel like the relationship is failing or you "just aren't that into them." Some girls will be crazy about you and never text you, because they don't want to bother you or risk rejection from you, or they simply learned that a lady never asks a man out.

Rather than remembering a bunch of rules, the best way to deal with this kind of thing is just to monitor your emotions and do what you feel like doing. If she proposes or reschedules something, and you feel "Yeah!" then go do it. If she proposes or reschedules and you feel "Eh..." then decline. Stick to the "follow your gut" rule and you'll be a natural leader; the men women don't like are the ones who subsume their own wants slavishly to their women because they feel like they "have to" to not lose the girl or hurt her feelings.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Sup chase. Id Mike to know... Sometimes i want a good girl and sometimes i want a bad girl. Sometimes i want a confident one and at other times a submissive. Im sure many of the more promiscuous women out there feel the same way. Will this ever change? Are people like this bad for mariage?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anon-

That's the effect of acclimation and/or mood. "The grass is always greener", so to speak. If you date a submissive woman for a while, you'll tend to start getting bored of how easy things are and how uninteresting the conversation is and how little she challenges you, and you'll start to long for a firecracker. Date a firecracker for a while, and you'll start to get annoyed at how much drama she is, and how high maintenance she can be, and how moody she is, and long for a quiet submissive girl who will just sit around and wait patiently for you and not try to test your or control you. Same deal with good girls / bad girls, and it can be mood related, too. If you're feeling weak and sick, you might want a "good girl" who can nurture you and make you feel loved. If you're feeling horny and powerful and strong, you might want a "bad girl" you can do all kinds of nasty things with and have her LOVE it and throw herself in with reckless abandon in a way that a "good girl" simply can't.

Everyone's like this - men, women, good girls, bad girls, good men, bad men, confident, unconfident - we all have moods where we want different things, and we acclimate to what we have and want something different. Then we switch partners, are happy for a while, and then want the other thing we used to have and start fantasizing about that again. That's kind of just how it goes.

If you're looking at marriage / long-term commitment, accepting that you are that way and she is this way is just part-and-parcel of the whole long-term-monogamy thing. There is some subsuming of natural urges that go into these relationships - everyone has them; they exist for biological reasons; but a monogamous relationship only works if you set aside certain of your wants and just soldier through (there are some things you can do that take some of the edge off too, like role playing / travel / doing exciting things together / etc. - have your submissive girl act naughty or your firecracker act submissive, for instance).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

I'm sure you've already heard this, but I gotta say you make great comments. One exception to what you've written in "Grass is greener" I feel is that not everyone needs that variety that you speak of, of course to varying degrees. My feeling is that it's the more high-maintenance and uninhibited types of people who need the variety, whereas the types who are happy with simple, "boring" lives are completely satisfied with everything they have. Unfortunately, those % of people are at least less than half the population. Assuming your girl has those needs, how do you suggest reading what she needs at any given time?

I wrote a comment awhile ago asking how good guys with an edge could ever compete with bad boys on a certain level. I don't remember your answer exactly but it didn't seem satisfying (sorry chase! maybe you're right but also I understand you're not an oracle). Going back to "the effect of acclimation," if a girl is in a relationship with a good guy with an edge, isn't it bound to get comfortable or boring esp. once you get married and have kids? Like I said before, how can a guy with an edge compete with a bad boy at providing excitement and care-freeness? Women are often attracted to bad boys because they wake a girl up from an otherwise routine or stressful life and the bad boy (and we're talking about the deadbeat types) is 100% excitement and carefree because he doesn't give a shit about anything and lives in the moment. A good guy with an edge, can be edgy, but he will never be AS edgy as the bad boy purely in those respects because he IS responsible, ambitious, and cares about life. Like you said, many women acclimate, so for this reason, do I need to be concerned about a partner being drawn towards a bad boy? I do feel that a certain type of women is more likely to even consider being with a bad boy, would you agree? The confident, party-girl types are almost always with bad boys whereas good girls sometimes will date them for short periods and some good girls just aren't even attracted to bad boys at all. I'm starting to see a correlation where the former types are the types of girls who aren't quite relationship material. Why don't they date good, edgy guys who are just as confident but have so much more? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's because good edgy guys aren't bad boys. I even sometimes get the impression that it's some sort of statement to society showing how cool these girls are (these are usually the confident girls who treat their "bad boy" like he's cute and harmless, and see him as a project, rather than the dominant alpha who needs to be tamed, although in these cases the bad boy usually acts sweet to her.)

Which brings me to my next point, that women, when asked why they're attracted to bad boys, say it's because they desire to change him. Maybe this is something I'll never understand as a man, but where does that leave guys like us who have their shit together and are successful? Is she going to leave me because I'm the one who changes myself? Does it make a woman feel special to be with a loser because he sort of needs her more or something? Why would a girl be more attracted to a man who is less desired by women and society, and really has no potential? Or again is it only certain types of women who are more susceptible to fall into this trap because they want to feel special or have a desire to fix a wounded thing, or don't want to be with a successful edgy man for whatever reason. I understand how running away with no money for love can be enticing for both men and women, but what I don't understand is how a smart, classy woman could relate to and have a lifestyle with someone who's dumb, not classy, talks in slang and isn't attractive to people in her league. Can fun really make up for everything that's lacking or is it temporary fix like you explained? I'm not sure if you've written an article about how some women, whether it be due to her father's personality, daddy issues, or self-esteem issues to name a few, are addicted to bad boys for those reasons or so I've heard, so maybe it's not entirely about a man's overall value. Let me ask you this though, respectfully, if a bad boy is so successful with women, should I be reading his website or yours? Should I be completely inhibited and throw my life away (or living within means)?

Didn't mean to write this long of a post, but I started to see some nuances that I felt were interesting and important. I assure you none of this was a rant or anything, I'm just trying to figure out what to take away from this. Thanks for your input.

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Chase Amante's picture

Anon-

There are exceptions, yeah - emotionally / sexually repressed people will not allow themselves to experience their "grass is greener" emotions, and will repress them instead. There are also very low sex drive people, who simply do not need sex very much, and do not spend much time wanting or thinking about sex or sex partners or thrilling or exciting things - they just have zero desire to seek novelty, don't want it, and don't care for it.

Many guys tend to look for sexually repressed women as partners, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that these women WILL undergo sexual awakenings much of the time, regardless of how careful around them you are, if they have even a somewhat ordinary sex drive; and then, they become a lot less "manageable."

So, if dating a woman who doesn't experience this is important, I'd recommend people select for mates with low sex drives and low novelty-seeking behaviors (e.g., she shies away from new stimulation, exciting situations, meeting new people, etc.) - these are the only "guaranteed" people to not have to worry about this with.

My opinion on long-term monogamy is that it's healthier to think of relationships as two people coming together for a time to produce children and rear them, and to expect that there's a good-size chance those relationships will at some point dissolve once both parents are no longer needed to accomplish this.

Even if you're a bad boy yourself, once you've settled into a long-term monogamous relationship with her, you're no longer a bad boy to HER, and when she needs excitement, fresh bad boys will tempt her with a stronger dose of what she initially fell for in you but doesn't have nearly as much of anymore. Whether she gives into that or sticks around with you is dependent on her values and personality, her sex drive and degree of novelty-seeking, how tempting and enabling the situations she puts herself into are, and the strength and health of your relationship with her and how good a job (or not) you're doing then and there at the moment of providing for her emotional needs (the full gamut from excitement to stability).

Party girl types are certainly more likely to "give in" to the allure of bad boys; that's why I nix them myself for long-term consideration (see here : "Why I Quit Dating Girls Who Club, Party, or Drink").

What most guys define as "good girls" includes a broad spectrum of women, including:

  • Low sex drive, low novelty-seeking women
  • Sexually repressed women who have not been sexually awakened
  • Sexually awakened women who position themselves as "good girls"

Ironically, the ones who seem most disinterested in bad boys to the nice guys are the last ones, because they will vehemently tell men that they're only looking for something serious and only want a good guy and only care for commitment. They do this because they're experienced with men, talented at reading them, and know exactly what "good guys" want to hear. Less sexually experienced women are not nearly so opinionated (they don't have the experience base to have strong opinions on men, usually, and may never have dated anything but "good guys"), and frequently are intrigued by bad boys but scared to try them.

Re: women's desires to "change" men or "save" them, yes, this is pretty much universal, so far as I can tell. It can manifest in a number of ways - you can highlight your Byronic personality traits with women and be the broken man she's trying to heal (who can never really be fully healed); you can also just be a man with big dreams who's trying his heart out to achieve them, and pull her along for the ride with you, inspired by your dreams, and pushing you along and supporting you to help you succeed because she believes in you. If you have ZERO flaws though, and also zero AMBITION, then yeah… you will come across as pretty well vanilla-flavored to average- and higher sex drive women (but you can always still grab a low drive girl and pretty much be fine). However, you don't need to be on the extreme end of the spectrum with your flaws or ambition for a "regular girl", either - you don't have to be, say, a convicted felon who can't keep himself out of jail, or a billions-or-bust Silicon Valley entrepreneur who dreams of beating Elon Musk to Mars. You could just be a guy she's always trying to tame and get to spend a little more time at home than she can quite get him to, or a guy who's dreaming of getting his writing to take off or freeing himself from the 9-to-5 with his lifestyle business to enable himself and his family to let him travel the world.

Just keep this in mind: no on-off switches. It's not black and white. Women aren't sitting there trying to decide, "Hmm… do I want to date prison inmates, or do I want to date holy reverends?"

Just don't be boring, don't be uninspiring, and don't be dream-less and ambition-less, and DO be realistic in your choice of women depending on whom you are and who you want to be. If you want a sex-crazy nymphomaniac to be your monogamous wife of 40 years, then YES, you need to be the baddest bad boy on planet Earth, because only then do you stand a chance of holding her interest anywhere near that long. But, if you want a girl of average sex drive and average novelty-seeking to fulfill that role, then you don't need to be nearly quite so bad.

And if you don't want to do ANY work, and are more the sit and home and relax by the fire reading the evening newspaper sort yourself, look for quiet, reserved, low-drive low-novelty-seeking women who are going to be perfectly content to sit there right next to you each and every night, content in the knowledge that so long as you're there, they're happy.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Chase,

So, as winter break started for my college I started texting this girl. Problem is that school doesn't start until the 8th, she lives in a diffrent state, and worst I've been texting her almost everyday trying to keep some kind of conversation going. Now Im afraid I got myself into the acquaintance group and the attracted expiration date is almost here. Is there any hope?

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