Growing up, I was shown again and again in film, books, and television that there was precisely one (1) path a man could follow with women, romantically-speaking: date a few people, find the right girl, and settle down.
This never sat entirely right with me, because while I enjoyed the idea of pairing up intensely with some amazing woman, my tastes also changed enough that I also enjoyed fantasizing about pairing up with lots of different amazing women. Not all at once (what a headache!), but mostly more or less one after another. Maybe having children with the different various amazing women along the way. Even while fixated on that one special girl, I could never imagine more than a year or two out into a relationship with her... sort of like most Hollywood films. The movie in my head always ended after the exciting part.
When I discovered the seduction community, I found two more beliefs about how relationships could go, coexisting rather uncomfortably side-by-side with that first. Plenty of men learning how to get girls still aimed for a settled life with one girl they’d commit to more or less forever; some of them because of a lack of abundance mentality, but many of them because that was just what they really wanted, and the cultural narrative gelled with their own intrinsic desires.
Those other two views on relationships are the ones I want to discuss today. I won’t go much into the conventional mainstream view of relationships – you already know that one plenty well enough (and, for the record, I think it’s a perfectly fine and doable path for those who want it), so instead, I want to talk about the other two:
- The “Committed Relationships are Bad for Men” View, and
- The “Committed Relationships are Playgrounds for Men” View
... and I’ll also talk about where both of these views come from, and how and why your lifestyle radically colors your perception of relationships.
When I first stumbled upon the pickup community in late 2005, I spent about a month reading an online message board, where I found that the views on relationships largely broke down into the following splits:
- Men who believed in conventional committed monogamy: ~70%
- Men who believed that committed men got screwed over: ~20%
- Men who did whatever they wanted while women committed to them: ~10%
I signed up for training with instructors who sounded like they knew
their stuff, but were somewhat outside the pickup “mainstream.” Both
guys were firmly in the “do whatever you want in your relationships and
have women be firmly loyal to you” camp. I liked it. It suited me. And
I started running their relationship tech in my own relationships, and
modifying and tweaking it to even better accomplish the relationship
setups I preferred.
I mostly stayed out of relationship talk on public pickup boards,
because there were so many of what I considered “cynical” beliefs –
that commitment is bad for men, and if you get in a serious
relationship, you WILL get screwed over. To me, it rather sounded like
a bunch of people who’d lost a few games of baseball
and so now proclaimed that baseball as a sport was rigged and the only
way to win was to not play.
In real life, I made friends with a variety of men who were quite skilled with women, and noticed the different relationship views among them, too. My friends who were experienced with women for the most part fell into one of the two “experienced seducer” camps: commitment is a raw deal for men or commitment is something women give to men.
And I noticed, almost across the board, that the “commitment is a raw deal” guys were night gamers and online daters, and the “commitment is something women give to men” guys were day gamers.
The Pattern Emerges
“That’s impossible. No woman would ever go for that.”
That was what a new friend of mine declared a number of years ago
when I told him about
the way I’d set up my relationships. That is, such that I was not
exclusive to girlfriends... but they were exclusive to me. (if you’re
wondering why I don’t teach that here, it’s because I have mixed
feelings about the moral responsibilities you have to the women you’re
involved with like this these days, and it’s a bit too much of an
ethical tightrope to walk for me to feel comfortable teaching something
of the like to a huge audience on the Internet)
This friend was 7 years older than me, had been sleeping with lots and lots of women for far longer than I had, and had worked it all, seen it all, and done it all. He’d been the king of the rave scene in his old town, a big-time ecstasy dealer, and had both outstanding natural game and finely-honed routine-based game that he mixed together and intermingled to pull the hottest girls from the toughest nightclubs.
He predominantly met women at bars, nightclubs, and online.
Yet, when I’d meet men who met women during the daytime and were sufficiently experienced with it, when we got to talking about relationships and I mentioned mine, their responses would across the board be, “Yeah, sure. I do that too.”
I encountered variations on this pattern again and again, with one man after another. Those experienced men who met women through night game and online dating would be incredulous, tell me my relationship setups couldn’t possibly work, or go on long rants about how women were merciless tamers of men who’d then turn and leave or cheat the moment they’d achieved relationship control.
Those experienced men who met women primarily through day game, on the other hand, would shrug their shoulders and I’d find they were frequently enjoying the same sorts of relationships I was, with “unidirectional monogamy”, where women were largely exclusive to them, but not the other way around.
I never gave this much thought until quite recently; I always just shrugged it off and
maintained a “stick to day gamers for discussing relationship matters”
rule, even though I myself learned a great deal of my own game picking up in bars and clubs
(though it has lost some of its luster as I’ve spent more time on
But recently I was forced to ask myself this: “What is it that makes day gamers and night gamers view women and relationships so radically different?”
Assembling the Pieces
I’ve been wary for sometime of “pickup artist groupthink”, namely, the effect of a lot of guys online sharing anecdotal experiences about sleeping with other men’s girlfriends or wives, being cheated on, and women in all manner of twisty, messy relationship situations. Partly it’s because so many guys are meeting women in nightclubs and online – the two places with by far the highest percentage of “broken” women (I’ll discuss why a little later) – and partly it’s because so many of these wacky-sounding experiences get shared online in this big echo chamber that is the seduction community.
There’s also a fair amount of sorting that happens in the women you
end up with – plainly and simply, while you can meet just about any woman via cold approach, for practical
reasons, you’ll tend to find a much higher percentage mix of independent women, sexually experienced women, and crazy women in the women you get
via cold approach than the women you do via social circle (assuming you
could get the same volume of women via social circle... which usually
You have to screen a lot better with cold approach, and come across a lot more smoothly and naturally, if you want to end up with “normal” women... since the more “normal” women tend to be skittish and reserved around strangers, while the women who are going to be more trouble in a relationship also tend to be more open to your advances in non-social circle situations.
A lot of guys don’t realize this. They just look at the women they end up with from whatever their approach is, reason that the women they get are a fair representative sample of the female population at large (they almost never are), and draw sweeping conclusions off of their own dating histories and those of the other guys they talk to who pick up in similar places with similar methods to them.
The other thing you realize here is, you’ve got be very careful about the kinds of women you let into your life if maintaining a peaceful, healthy, productive state of mind is important to you. There are succubae out there who will sour you on women, dating, and relationships if you let them; and if you aren’t vigilant about screening them out and being very mindful of where you’re meeting women, they can sneak into your mind and alter your perspectives.
But just why are the women you meet at night and online so different from the women you meet during the day?
Well, it all comes down to two little questions.
Most things are quite simple when you get them down to brass tacks. The coloring of relationship perceptions here is no different.
To understand why night game / online game guys have such wildly divergent views of long-term relationships than day game guys have (usually), there are only two questions you really need to ask yourself:
What’s the difference between the girls you meet by day vs. the girls you meet at night or online? and
What’s the difference between the guys themselves who stick solely to night game / online game vs. the guys who meet women by day?
And as it turns out, there are some key differences in both.
The Differences in the Women
Last year, I wrote “Why I Quit Dating Girls Who Club, Party, or Drink”, detailing my rationale behind why I swore off dating (not sleeping with, mind you ;) – just dating) women who party.
I haven’t written anything on it specifically, but I also NEVER date women who date online, and wouldn’t even consider a relationship with a girl I’d learned had tried this. Online dating is a giant black mark on a woman’s relationship eligibility scorecard for me, so far as I’m concerned.
Until I started thinking about this article, my default reason if I found myself in conversation about this was always “party girls and girls who date online are broken.” They’re always just at least a LITTLE bit crazy (and, often, a lotta crazy), and they’ll be more than happy to take a wrecking ball to your life for no good reason whatsoever: you’re too mean, you’re too nice, you’re too you, or not enough. These women tend to have both destructive and self-destructive streaks, and while there are exceptions, those exceptions are hard enough to find that I just decided a while back it wasn’t even worth looking for them when you have a far, far higher likelihood of finding a normal girl, and fast, by just doing a little street pick up.
Sitting down to put some details to this whole “broken” thing, instead of just throwing a label out there that’s not terribly insightful to anyone who doesn’t share your experiences yet with these kinds of girls, I asked myself, “What specifically is different about women who party and/or date online from women who abstain from these things that makes them less stable to have in relationships?”
I came up with the following differences:
Women who party / date online are validation junkies. They need lots of validation – from men, from other women, from the staff of the venues they frequent, from their friends, from strangers. They all tend to need other people to like them and approve of them in much higher doses than the women who abstain from these avenues. A lot of the early-stage pickup methodology was focused on giving women a little bit of validation, and then invalidating them, to make them chase. It’s a good method, but it works much better on those women I term “broken” – the ones who are constantly in search of their next validation hit. When you use game that leans excessively on toying with validation, you end up with the women who are the most in search of validation.
Women who party / date online need men more. No one signs up for online dating unless she says, “I want men to come hit on me, and will put myself in position for them to do it.” Likewise partying; every woman will tell you she parties for herself, or for the love of dancing, and most certainly NOT for men, but don’t believe a word of it... that’s just her effort to preserve her feminine mystique. I’ve seen some “ladies only” venues, and trust me, either the women don’t stick around long, or they are excited as all get out once the men are finally allowed in. Women who indulge in online dating and partying tend to need men and male attention a lot more than women who don’t. They are, you might say, desperate for it... and that is why they seek it out, and go out of their ways to find it, unlike their sisters who abstain.
Women who party / date online know how to get men. The girls who hang out in the club, the bar, the party, or online all have one thing in common: they have easy access to desirable-enough men whenever they want them. This alters the dynamic substantially between them and the men they date compared to women who don’t frequent these venues; a woman who never parties or goes online knows in theory that being a woman means she can find a replacement man whenever she wants, but in practice, it usually takes her a fairly long time to line up her next guy following a bit fight or a break up. Conversely, a woman who’s comfortable in bars or online is wont to head there the moment she starts feeling a little stuffy in the relationship, or a little miffed at the boyfriend, to get a little male attention and feel better about herself... or maybe sometimes more.
As such, you’ll find that the women you’ll meet via day game (on the whole) are calmer – even if they’re strong, passionate women; they’re more measured; and they’re more practical than their online dating and partying peers. The online dating and partying girls tend to be a lot more emotive, but in an explosive, capricious way, and in a very uncontrollable way. They just don’t make for good girlfriends. No matter how dominant a man you are, you will never hold full sway over a girl for whom more sexy men are a click of a button or a 10-minute cab ride to the club away.
The Differences in the Men
The other thing I’ve realized is that there are, in fact, differences between men who meet women by day, and men who meet women by night or online. Care to guess what they are?
When I was new to meeting girls in nightclubs, my main mentor was a day game guy who nevertheless taught me club game. He’d learned all his approaching on the street over the course of four years, and had never once set foot in a nightclub, because he’d started picking up at age 17. But he found that the moment he began frequenting nightclubs, he had no problem sleeping with girls from there.
For me, though, I found that my club game skills did not translate quite so well to street. When I learned to approach a girl on the street, it was like learning an entirely new skill set. Why’s it work so well going one way, but not the other?
For all the things I used to hear about how nightclubs were the ultimate social proving grounds – and, in many ways, I still agree; you won’t learn nearly as much about dealing with all kinds of sticky social interactions on the street as you will in clubs – for learning pure PICKUP skills, nothing beats the street.
You think it’s hard approaching a girl in a nightclub, where people go specifically to meet other people? Try doing it on the street when she’s on her way to an appointment.
You think it’s hard getting a girl to sit with you in a bar, when she has no pressing schedule and ample seating is available? Try getting her to sit somewhere with you in the middle of a crowded store in a shopping mall.
You think it’s hard sorting out logistics with a girl in a hookup bar late at night when she’s buzzed off alcohol and there are cabs waiting for you right outside? Try handling logistics in the middle of the day with a sober woman in the heart of downtown with gridlock everywhere.
What I finally had to admit, as a guy who’d placed night game first,
online second, and day game a distant third in his own repertoire, was
that the guys I knew who day gamed were just more consistent at pick up
than I was, and were, in many ways, ballsier. So, I started meeting
girls by day a lot more often to round myself out. It changed the tone
and tenor of my relationships.
Here are the differences I ended up noticing between my friends who meet women predominantly via day game, and my friends who meet women predominantly via night game / online game:
Day gamers tend to be a LOT more comfortable in their hold on their women. Men who meet women at night or online tend to divide into two camps: trusting and optimistic, or paranoid and pessimistic. The trusting folk are the ones who will look you square in the eye and say, “Yeah, sure, my girl’s clubbing, but trust me – I know she’d never do anything to hurt me!” The paranoid folk are the ones who will squint at you and say, “Yeah, she’s out clubbing again – that’s just what girls do. Can’t trust ‘em as far as you can throw ‘em, so don’t be a fool and go committing yourself to someone who’s only going to burn you later” (many times, the paranoid men are former trusting men who’ve been burned a few times).
Day gamers, alternately, mostly tend to have a, “Well, my girl’s a good girl, and she doesn’t put herself places where men are going to be chasing after her, so I don’t NEED to worry about these things; both trust and suspicion are irrelevant. I don’t even waste mental cycles on it. And if something DID happen? It’d be a rare event, but whatever – I’ll just find another girl via day game, since these girls are almost always loyal!” Makes for a dramatically different view on relationships.
Day gamers tend to dominate their women in relationships, rather than the reverse. When I talk with my day game friends, one of the things we discuss is how women submit to us over time in relationships, and how we wish they wouldn’t do this, because then it kills our interest in the girl and we start getting bored with the relationship. Most men in the pickup community will warn you about the reverse trend – women taming men – which is the more usual trend... but I know of almost no day gamers who ever experience this.
I’m not sure if you just become so much ballsier and more dominant destroying social norms by approaching girls on the street in broad daylight in non-social contexts in front of random other people, or if the women you meet via day game are just more likely to submit to you in a relationship because they aren’t surrounded by eager, horny men at all times like the women who party and date online are... though I suspect it’s in fact some mixture of the two.
Actually, when I talk to my friends who’ve started out as club/online guys, and moved later to day game, I’ve even had some of them tell me about how their girlfriends in their clubbing / online days used to get a leg up on them, but how the girls they date now always end up submitting themselves to them over time. The connection seems to be pretty strong.
The replacement dynamic between day gamers and night / online daters is flipped. If you’re in a relationship with a girl you met at a party, a club, or online, and the two of you break up, how long before she’s sleeping with someone even HOTTER than you... and how long before you’re sleeping with someone hotter than her? Chances are, she’ll have a new guy within a few days, or even sooner; and while you might move that fast, chances are for you, the girl won’t be hotter. Furthermore, you know this, throughout the relationship, and it colors your interactions with her in a big way. You are much more quickly replaced by her than she is by you.
Now let’s look at the other side of the picture. Let’s say you’re running street game, and pick up a girl off the street and end up with her as a girlfriend. How easily replaced are you for her, and how easily replaced is she for you? Well, the nice thing about day game is that it’s a lot easier to meet really pretty girls than it is at night or online, simply because far fewer men do it and women’s walls are a lot lower – they’re much more receptive to your approaches, on the whole. If you’re running street game, and you’re good, you can probably replace a girlfriend pretty quickly with another very pretty girl. Now how about from the girl’s point of view? Well... she doesn’t go to bars. Or parties. Or nightclubs. Doesn’t date online. Essentially, she doesn’t put herself in a position where she’s being repeatedly solicited by men for sex. She doubtless has some men from school or work who are trying to sleep with her, but they aren’t as desirable as you or she’d be dating them. And she isn’t going to get approached on the street again anytime soon. The fact of the matter is, it’s going to be a LONG time before she finds another guy like you, while you’ll replace her in a matter of days – and both of you KNOW it.
I’ve seen this dynamic play out time and again with girlfriends I met during day game. They’d cause drama; I’d get annoyed, tell them off, and then they’d come back to me and apologize and submit, and mention that they didn’t want to let it go too long because I’d probably just go out and meet some other girl to replace them and they know how easy it is for me. That’s the reverse of the dynamic that most men who date women from night game and online dating have, and it absolutely changes the game as far as who submits to whom in a relationship is concerned.
Moral of the Story
So what’s the point of this whole post? Is it to tell you to do day game, or that you need to make women submit to you in relationships?
No. Not at all. Life is a Choose Your Own Adventure book, and there are a multitude of paths to take, each with their own dangers and rewards. Far be it for me to tell you what to do or which path to go down.
Instead, the object of this article is to show you how dramatically something as simple as where you choose to meet the women you date can color your perception of something as complicated as relationships. By switching from meeting women during daytime to meeting them at night, or from meeting them online to meeting them in transit, you can, with a bit of time and a little relationship experience, wholly alter your perspective on relationships themselves.
Party girls are a lot of fun; and online dating is pretty low stress and easy. Just be mindful of the risks involved and – if you value your sanity and peace of mind – probably do your best to avoid taking girlfriends from these places.
And, if any of your friends tells you a certain sort of relationship goal, setup, or dynamic is unrealistic or “impossible” – just tell him Chase Amante says he needs to get out more ;)