How Your Lifestyle Colors Your Perception of Relationships


Growing up, I was shown again and again in film, books, and television that there was precisely one (1) path a man could follow with women, romantically-speaking: date a few people, find the right girl, and settle down.

perception of relationships

This never sat entirely right with me, because while I enjoyed the idea of pairing up intensely with some amazing woman, my tastes also changed enough that I also enjoyed fantasizing about pairing up with lots of different amazing women. Not all at once (what a headache!), but mostly more or less one after another. Maybe having children with the different various amazing women along the way. Even while fixated on that one special girl, I could never imagine more than a year or two out into a relationship with her... sort of like most Hollywood films. The movie in my head always ended after the exciting part.

When I discovered the seduction community, I found two more beliefs about how relationships could go, coexisting rather uncomfortably side-by-side with that first. Plenty of men learning how to get girls still aimed for a settled life with one girl they’d commit to more or less forever; some of them because of a lack of abundance mentality, but many of them because that was just what they really wanted, and the cultural narrative gelled with their own intrinsic desires.

Those other two views on relationships are the ones I want to discuss today. I won’t go much into the conventional mainstream view of relationships – you already know that one plenty well enough (and, for the record, I think it’s a perfectly fine and doable path for those who want it), so instead, I want to talk about the other two:

  1. The “Committed Relationships are Bad for Men” View, and
  2. The “Committed Relationships are Playgrounds for Men” View

... and I’ll also talk about where both of these views come from, and how and why your lifestyle radically colors your perception of relationships.


perception of relationships

When I first stumbled upon the pickup community in late 2005, I spent about a month reading an online message board, where I found that the views on relationships largely broke down into the following splits:

  • Men who believed in conventional committed monogamy: ~70%
  • Men who believed that committed men got screwed over: ~20%
  • Men who did whatever they wanted while women committed to them: ~10%

I signed up for training with instructors who sounded like they knew their stuff, but were somewhat outside the pickup “mainstream.” Both guys were firmly in the “do whatever you want in your relationships and have women be firmly loyal to you” camp. I liked it. It suited me. And I started running their relationship tech in my own relationships, and modifying and tweaking it to even better accomplish the relationship setups I preferred.

I mostly stayed out of relationship talk on public pickup boards, because there were so many of what I considered “cynical” beliefs – that commitment is bad for men, and if you get in a serious relationship, you WILL get screwed over. To me, it rather sounded like a bunch of people who’d lost a few games of baseball and so now proclaimed that baseball as a sport was rigged and the only way to win was to not play.

In real life, I made friends with a variety of men who were quite skilled with women, and noticed the different relationship views among them, too. My friends who were experienced with women for the most part fell into one of the two “experienced seducer” camps: commitment is a raw deal for men or commitment is something women give to men.

And I noticed, almost across the board, that the “commitment is a raw deal” guys were night gamers and online daters, and the “commitment is something women give to men” guys were day gamers.


The Pattern Emerges

“That’s impossible. No woman would ever go for that.”

That was what a new friend of mine declared a number of years ago when I told him about the way I’d set up my relationships. That is, such that I was not exclusive to girlfriends... but they were exclusive to me. (if you’re wondering why I don’t teach that here, it’s because I have mixed feelings about the moral responsibilities you have to the women you’re involved with like this these days, and it’s a bit too much of an ethical tightrope to walk for me to feel comfortable teaching something of the like to a huge audience on the Internet)

This friend was 7 years older than me, had been sleeping with lots and lots of women for far longer than I had, and had worked it all, seen it all, and done it all. He’d been the king of the rave scene in his old town, a big-time ecstasy dealer, and had both outstanding natural game and finely-honed routine-based game that he mixed together and intermingled to pull the hottest girls from the toughest nightclubs.

He predominantly met women at bars, nightclubs, and online.

perception of relationships

Yet, when I’d meet men who met women during the daytime and were sufficiently experienced with it, when we got to talking about relationships and I mentioned mine, their responses would across the board be, “Yeah, sure. I do that too.”

I encountered variations on this pattern again and again, with one man after another. Those experienced men who met women through night game and online dating would be incredulous, tell me my relationship setups couldn’t possibly work, or go on long rants about how women were merciless tamers of men who’d then turn and leave or cheat the moment they’d achieved relationship control.

Those experienced men who met women primarily through day game, on the other hand, would shrug their shoulders and I’d find they were frequently enjoying the same sorts of relationships I was, with “unidirectional monogamy”, where women were largely exclusive to them, but not the other way around.

I never gave this much thought until quite recently; I always just shrugged it off and maintained a “stick to day gamers for discussing relationship matters” rule, even though I myself learned a great deal of my own game picking up in bars and clubs (though it has lost some of its luster as I’ve spent more time on daytime).

But recently I was forced to ask myself this: “What is it that makes day gamers and night gamers view women and relationships so radically different?”


Assembling the Pieces

I’ve been wary for sometime of “pickup artist groupthink”, namely, the effect of a lot of guys online sharing anecdotal experiences about sleeping with other men’s girlfriends or wives, being cheated on, and women in all manner of twisty, messy relationship situations. Partly it’s because so many guys are meeting women in nightclubs and online – the two places with by far the highest percentage of “broken” women (I’ll discuss why a little later) – and partly it’s because so many of these wacky-sounding experiences get shared online in this big echo chamber that is the seduction community.

There’s also a fair amount of sorting that happens in the women you end up with – plainly and simply, while you can meet just about any woman via cold approach, for practical reasons, you’ll tend to find a much higher percentage mix of independent women, sexually experienced women, and crazy women in the women you get via cold approach than the women you do via social circle (assuming you could get the same volume of women via social circle... which usually you cannot).

You have to screen a lot better with cold approach, and come across a lot more smoothly and naturally, if you want to end up with “normal” women... since the more “normal” women tend to be skittish and reserved around strangers, while the women who are going to be more trouble in a relationship also tend to be more open to your advances in non-social circle situations.

A lot of guys don’t realize this. They just look at the women they end up with from whatever their approach is, reason that the women they get are a fair representative sample of the female population at large (they almost never are), and draw sweeping conclusions off of their own dating histories and those of the other guys they talk to who pick up in similar places with similar methods to them.

The other thing you realize here is, you’ve got be very careful about the kinds of women you let into your life if maintaining a peaceful, healthy, productive state of mind is important to you. There are succubae out there who will sour you on women, dating, and relationships if you let them; and if you aren’t vigilant about screening them out and being very mindful of where you’re meeting women, they can sneak into your mind and alter your perspectives.

But just why are the women you meet at night and online so different from the women you meet during the day?

Well, it all comes down to two little questions.


perception of relationships

Most things are quite simple when you get them down to brass tacks. The coloring of relationship perceptions here is no different.

To understand why night game / online game guys have such wildly divergent views of long-term relationships than day game guys have (usually), there are only two questions you really need to ask yourself:

  1. What’s the difference between the girls you meet by day vs. the girls you meet at night or online? and

  2. What’s the difference between the guys themselves who stick solely to night game / online game vs. the guys who meet women by day?

And as it turns out, there are some key differences in both.


The Differences in the Women

Last year, I wrote “Why I Quit Dating Girls Who Club, Party, or Drink”, detailing my rationale behind why I swore off dating (not sleeping with, mind you ;) – just dating) women who party.

I haven’t written anything on it specifically, but I also NEVER date women who date online, and wouldn’t even consider a relationship with a girl I’d learned had tried this. Online dating is a giant black mark on a woman’s relationship eligibility scorecard for me, so far as I’m concerned.

But why?

Until I started thinking about this article, my default reason if I found myself in conversation about this was always “party girls and girls who date online are broken.” They’re always just at least a LITTLE bit crazy (and, often, a lotta crazy), and they’ll be more than happy to take a wrecking ball to your life for no good reason whatsoever: you’re too mean, you’re too nice, you’re too you, or not enough. These women tend to have both destructive and self-destructive streaks, and while there are exceptions, those exceptions are hard enough to find that I just decided a while back it wasn’t even worth looking for them when you have a far, far higher likelihood of finding a normal girl, and fast, by just doing a little street pick up.

Sitting down to put some details to this whole “broken” thing, instead of just throwing a label out there that’s not terribly insightful to anyone who doesn’t share your experiences yet with these kinds of girls, I asked myself, “What specifically is different about women who party and/or date online from women who abstain from these things that makes them less stable to have in relationships?”

I came up with the following differences:

  1. Women who party / date online are validation junkies. They need lots of validation – from men, from other women, from the staff of the venues they frequent, from their friends, from strangers. They all tend to need other people to like them and approve of them in much higher doses than the women who abstain from these avenues. A lot of the early-stage pickup methodology was focused on giving women a little bit of validation, and then invalidating them, to make them chase. It’s a good method, but it works much better on those women I term “broken” – the ones who are constantly in search of their next validation hit. When you use game that leans excessively on toying with validation, you end up with the women who are the most in search of validation.

  2. Women who party / date online need men more. No one signs up for online dating unless she says, “I want men to come hit on me, and will put myself in position for them to do it.” Likewise partying; every woman will tell you she parties for herself, or for the love of dancing, and most certainly NOT for men, but don’t believe a word of it... that’s just her effort to preserve her feminine mystique. I’ve seen some “ladies only” venues, and trust me, either the women don’t stick around long, or they are excited as all get out once the men are finally allowed in. Women who indulge in online dating and partying tend to need men and male attention a lot more than women who don’t. They are, you might say, desperate for it... and that is why they seek it out, and go out of their ways to find it, unlike their sisters who abstain.

  3. Women who party / date online know how to get men. The girls who hang out in the club, the bar, the party, or online all have one thing in common: they have easy access to desirable-enough men whenever they want them. This alters the dynamic substantially between them and the men they date compared to women who don’t frequent these venues; a woman who never parties or goes online knows in theory that being a woman means she can find a replacement man whenever she wants, but in practice, it usually takes her a fairly long time to line up her next guy following a bit fight or a break up. Conversely, a woman who’s comfortable in bars or online is wont to head there the moment she starts feeling a little stuffy in the relationship, or a little miffed at the boyfriend, to get a little male attention and feel better about herself... or maybe sometimes more.

As such, you’ll find that the women you’ll meet via day game (on the whole) are calmer – even if they’re strong, passionate women; they’re more measured; and they’re more practical than their online dating and partying peers. The online dating and partying girls tend to be a lot more emotive, but in an explosive, capricious way, and in a very uncontrollable way. They just don’t make for good girlfriends. No matter how dominant a man you are, you will never hold full sway over a girl for whom more sexy men are a click of a button or a 10-minute cab ride to the club away.


The Differences in the Men

perception of relationshipsThe other thing I’ve realized is that there are, in fact, differences between men who meet women by day, and men who meet women by night or online. Care to guess what they are?

When I was new to meeting girls in nightclubs, my main mentor was a day game guy who nevertheless taught me club game. He’d learned all his approaching on the street over the course of four years, and had never once set foot in a nightclub, because he’d started picking up at age 17. But he found that the moment he began frequenting nightclubs, he had no problem sleeping with girls from there.

For me, though, I found that my club game skills did not translate quite so well to street. When I learned to approach a girl on the street, it was like learning an entirely new skill set. Why’s it work so well going one way, but not the other?

For all the things I used to hear about how nightclubs were the ultimate social proving grounds – and, in many ways, I still agree; you won’t learn nearly as much about dealing with all kinds of sticky social interactions on the street as you will in clubs – for learning pure PICKUP skills, nothing beats the street.

  • You think it’s hard approaching a girl in a nightclub, where people go specifically to meet other people? Try doing it on the street when she’s on her way to an appointment.

  • You think it’s hard getting a girl to sit with you in a bar, when she has no pressing schedule and ample seating is available? Try getting her to sit somewhere with you in the middle of a crowded store in a shopping mall.

  • You think it’s hard sorting out logistics with a girl in a hookup bar late at night when she’s buzzed off alcohol and there are cabs waiting for you right outside? Try handling logistics in the middle of the day with a sober woman in the heart of downtown with gridlock everywhere.

What I finally had to admit, as a guy who’d placed night game first, online second, and day game a distant third in his own repertoire, was that the guys I knew who day gamed were just more consistent at pick up than I was, and were, in many ways, ballsier. So, I started meeting girls by day a lot more often to round myself out. It changed the tone and tenor of my relationships.

Here are the differences I ended up noticing between my friends who meet women predominantly via day game, and my friends who meet women predominantly via night game / online game:

  1. Day gamers tend to be a LOT more comfortable in their hold on their women. Men who meet women at night or online tend to divide into two camps: trusting and optimistic, or paranoid and pessimistic. The trusting folk are the ones who will look you square in the eye and say, “Yeah, sure, my girl’s clubbing, but trust me – I know she’d never do anything to hurt me!” The paranoid folk are the ones who will squint at you and say, “Yeah, she’s out clubbing again – that’s just what girls do. Can’t trust ‘em as far as you can throw ‘em, so don’t be a fool and go committing yourself to someone who’s only going to burn you later” (many times, the paranoid men are former trusting men who’ve been burned a few times).

    Day gamers, alternately, mostly tend to have a, “Well, my girl’s a good girl, and she doesn’t put herself places where men are going to be chasing after her, so I don’t NEED to worry about these things; both trust and suspicion are irrelevant. I don’t even waste mental cycles on it. And if something DID happen? It’d be a rare event, but whatever – I’ll just find another girl via day game, since these girls are almost always loyal!” Makes for a dramatically different view on relationships.

  2. Day gamers tend to dominate their women in relationships, rather than the reverse. When I talk with my day game friends, one of the things we discuss is how women submit to us over time in relationships, and how we wish they wouldn’t do this, because then it kills our interest in the girl and we start getting bored with the relationship. Most men in the pickup community will warn you about the reverse trend – women taming men – which is the more usual trend... but I know of almost no day gamers who ever experience this.

    I’m not sure if you just become so much ballsier and more dominant destroying social norms by approaching girls on the street in broad daylight in non-social contexts in front of random other people, or if the women you meet via day game are just more likely to submit to you in a relationship because they aren’t surrounded by eager, horny men at all times like the women who party and date online are... though I suspect it’s in fact some mixture of the two.

    Actually, when I talk to my friends who’ve started out as club/online guys, and moved later to day game, I’ve even had some of them tell me about how their girlfriends in their clubbing / online days used to get a leg up on them, but how the girls they date now always end up submitting themselves to them over time. The connection seems to be pretty strong.

  3. The replacement dynamic between day gamers and night / online daters is flipped. If you’re in a relationship with a girl you met at a party, a club, or online, and the two of you break up, how long before she’s sleeping with someone even HOTTER than you... and how long before you’re sleeping with someone hotter than her? Chances are, she’ll have a new guy within a few days, or even sooner; and while you might move that fast, chances are for you, the girl won’t be hotter. Furthermore, you know this, throughout the relationship, and it colors your interactions with her in a big way. You are much more quickly replaced by her than she is by you.

    Now let’s look at the other side of the picture. Let’s say you’re running street game, and pick up a girl off the street and end up with her as a girlfriend. How easily replaced are you for her, and how easily replaced is she for you? Well, the nice thing about day game is that it’s a lot easier to meet really pretty girls than it is at night or online, simply because far fewer men do it and women’s walls are a lot lower – they’re much more receptive to your approaches, on the whole. If you’re running street game, and you’re good, you can probably replace a girlfriend pretty quickly with another very pretty girl. Now how about from the girl’s point of view? Well... she doesn’t go to bars. Or parties. Or nightclubs. Doesn’t date online. Essentially, she doesn’t put herself in a position where she’s being repeatedly solicited by men for sex. She doubtless has some men from school or work who are trying to sleep with her, but they aren’t as desirable as you or she’d be dating them. And she isn’t going to get approached on the street again anytime soon. The fact of the matter is, it’s going to be a LONG time before she finds another guy like you, while you’ll replace her in a matter of days – and both of you KNOW it.

I’ve seen this dynamic play out time and again with girlfriends I met during day game. They’d cause drama; I’d get annoyed, tell them off, and then they’d come back to me and apologize and submit, and mention that they didn’t want to let it go too long because I’d probably just go out and meet some other girl to replace them and they know how easy it is for me. That’s the reverse of the dynamic that most men who date women from night game and online dating have, and it absolutely changes the game as far as who submits to whom in a relationship is concerned.


Moral of the Story

So what’s the point of this whole post? Is it to tell you to do day game, or that you need to make women submit to you in relationships?

No. Not at all. Life is a Choose Your Own Adventure book, and there are a multitude of paths to take, each with their own dangers and rewards. Far be it for me to tell you what to do or which path to go down.

Instead, the object of this article is to show you how dramatically something as simple as where you choose to meet the women you date can color your perception of something as complicated as relationships. By switching from meeting women during daytime to meeting them at night, or from meeting them online to meeting them in transit, you can, with a bit of time and a little relationship experience, wholly alter your perspective on relationships themselves.

Party girls are a lot of fun; and online dating is pretty low stress and easy. Just be mindful of the risks involved and – if you value your sanity and peace of mind – probably do your best to avoid taking girlfriends from these places.

And, if any of your friends tells you a certain sort of relationship goal, setup, or dynamic is unrealistic or “impossible” – just tell him Chase Amante says he needs to get out more ;)

Chase

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Comments

Gonzaleth's picture

Your Mentors


Great article as usual Chase!

Just curious and a little off tangent here, you mentioned your mentors a couple of times in several articles, but never really go very deep about your history with them. Don't mean to probe, but it will be great if you can share your experience with us? (only if you are comfortable with it!) Who are they? What happened to them? Are they still in the community?

Thanks a million!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Your Mentors

Author

Gonzaleth-

Most of my mentors were men who were naturally good with women, and not active in the seduction community, or took only a passing interest in it. The one from the community whom I spent the most time with personally and learned from the most from the start of my seduction career and for a number of years later was Sebastian Drake, who ran theApproach and Master the Vibe. He's been out of the community since 2009 but still picking up in droves, same as ever. I learned a good bit from Vin DiCarlo, Sebastian's partner at theApproach, during 2006 as well, though Vin and Sebastian parted ways in 2007 and I haven't heard from Vin in years. He's still in business and doing quite well (as I hear it, he now has either the largest or the second largest presence in the space, after perhaps only David DeAngelo).

Chase

robertnyc's picture

Club girls during day?


Chase - this is a very insightful article. This gels with my own experience too.

My question is since club and bar girls also shop and go to coffee shops, etc. during the day won't you be meeting a substantial percentage of those types of women through day game? How do you screen out the club and bar girls when you daygame?

cwongucd's picture

I might be able to help


Hey Robertnyc,

The answer of your answer is actually pretty simple. I might be able to help. I have been reading a lot of Chase's articles and bought his book to learn his techniques so let me try. Chase, if I am wrong, correct me once u notice this post.

I usually do this. Here is your solution to identify club/bar gals:
1) Use Deep Dive
http://www.girlschase.com/content/secrets-getting-girls-art-deep-dive

2) Use statements instead of questions, this can prevent yourself sounds interrogating. Example:

*******[If she DOESN'T club]
Robertnyc: Jenny, I minor in Psychology back in college so I can tell u are an energetic and fun loving gal. You must have lighten up the entire club whenever u go clubbing.

Jenny: What! Oh no, I don't go clubbing. In my freetime, I just stay at home & watch love drama series.

Robert: Really! I got it wrong then, what else u do for fun besides watching love dramas &TV?

Jenny: National Park, museum, ballet etc.

********[If she Club]:
Rob: Jenny, I minor in Psychology back in college so I can tell u are an energetic and fun loving gal. You must have lighten up the entire club whenever u go clubbing.

Jenny: [laugh~]Thank you! I usually go with my gfs whenever we have freetime. But actually, most of the time my gfs were the ones who drag me there, I only do it once in a while. <----- [Now u know she at least do clubbing, u wanna know does she do it regularly with a pattern like once a month or no pattern such as ONCE per yr or ONCE per 2 years because for real her gf really were the ones who drag her to clubs (which is more tolerable) ]

Rob: OMG! BORING!!! You just go there once in a while? If you don't at least go to bar or clubs, you are just a boring bookworm/workaholic with no life. Should I leave now?

Jenny: [laugh~]Actually, I go with my gf once a month? why? Do u go clubbing often?

And then reward her by using qualifications, DIG AS MUCH INFO AS POSSIBLE. One of my female friends even share stories with me that one time at club, a Black dude was hitting on her & another time she was ditching MANY guys who bought her drinks etc.

In addition, she also told me that "If the guy who buy her drink is cute: such as tall+six packs+social, she might stay longer". In other word (To decode what she said), the drink is NOT the factor to keep her there. It's the guy's CUTENESS that makes her stay. Buying drinks to girls at club DOES NOT increase your social status. Buying her a drink is a sunk cost, if u are not cute, she will only ditch u after she get your drink.

C. Wong

Chase Amante's picture

Screening

Author

That's pretty much it, C. Wong. You can be more subtle even than that - e.g., "How do you spend your downtime?" [she answers] "Yeah, there's lots to do here - good restaurants, the beach, and it's a pretty fun party town with a good nightlife scene."

When you end that way, most girls will weigh in with their opinion: "Oh, I've never been to a club!" or "Yeah, the nightlife here is GREAT," or, "Oh, I used to go clubbing, but I'm too old for that now," <-- retired club girl.

As you get to know her and talk about what she does and how she enjoys her spare time and what her friends do and what she does with them, you get a pretty good picture of her extracurricular activities.

If you're still not sure, you can always tell her some of your friends are going to be partying at XYZ club, and does she want to come? Then just monitor her reaction (girls who don't club will usually get uncomfortable if they like you, because they don't want to turn you down, but they don't want to go clubbing, either). If you don't have friends going clubbing, you can always just cancel the invitation later if she says yes (text her a few days later that your friends aren't going to hit the club, but you and her can still [fill in the blank] activity).

Chase

wilson's picture

I agree with this article 100 percent


One of the things most guys don't get is that night game is just for fun and nothing more should be pursued from it....

I enjoy quality women as well so I stay far away from online/club/bar dating.

A few weeks ago before I moved this girl was setting up a buddy of mine with one of her friends.... he didn't understand women at all and game so I summed up to him your article with one sentence.

If a quality girl is dating you and she knows you have options, she will not cheat.

Your post essentially validates this and even the 2 girls sitting next to him agreed with it

jack's picture

Chase, Could you write on how


Chase,

Could you write on how you structure your mLTRs. I'm assuming that is what you mean whey you say that the girls are exclusive to you but you are not exclusive to them. I'm also guessing that the lifespan of those relationships is limited; i.e. I can't see those relationships lasting indefinitely.

Also, it sounds as if you are only considering women less than 25 when saying that on-line daters make for bad girlfriends. When women get older, they frequent clubs and bars less (often they give them up entirely) and they are more interested in sex in the context of long term relationships; i.e. they are less interested in casual or non-committed sex. The latter type of sex is why guys can game so successfully and have the Poly set-ups. When women are in their 30s, their entire sexual temperament changes. But I realize that this site is largely targeted at younger men who are interested in younger women. But it has been my experience that women over 26 or so are fine for girlfriends when you meet them on-line. Once you get women out of the nightclub scene, they become more normal.

Chase Amante's picture

mLTRs / Women in Their 30s

Author

Jack-

I noted your request on multiple long-term relationships here in the article on friends with benefits. Length-wise, they're the same as a typical long-term relationship; that is, if you run things right, they'll last about as long, but you encounter the same problems you do with a monogamous long-term relationship, like the 2 year drop.

My relationship age-range is about 25 to 28 these days; which is an age range I usually recommend guys steer clear of dating, since girls between 26 and 30 or so tend to have lots of baggage issues, but when you find the girls who've had nothing but good relationships before (or just very little experience with men in general), 25 to 28 is a pretty good sweet spot for maturity + youth. I've dated women in their 30s before, but the older I've gotten, the more firmly I've blacklisted women over 30 from my list; they do "normalize" quite a bit once partying is largely out of their systems, but I find that most of the women who are still single in their 30s have things about them that have kept them single that long that can make them less stellar relationship material, and they also engage in more power games than younger women do, which for me is just bothersome and not worth dealing with compared with what you get for it. Certainly if you're comparing a 25-year-old club girl and a 32-year-old former club girl, though, the latter makes better relationship material than the former, if somewhat faded in terms of her beauty. For me personally, all girls who party now or have partied in the past are out of the running when it comes to me keeping a girl around... whether she still does it or did it before but hung up her spurs doesn't make much difference to me; once a partier, always a partier, even if on hiatus.

Chase

African boyo's picture

feasibilty


The one sided monogamy relationship intrigues me. Is it something thats sustainable or does it eventually collapse like the fwb relationship due to social pressure and tradition?

jack's picture

Is it something thats


Is it something thats sustainable or does it eventually collapse like the fwb relationship due to social pressure and tradition?

Not just social pressure and tradition, but biology. Human females are not wired for long term polyamory. They may flirt with it when they are young but this is not the sexual temperament of the majority of females on this earth. Like FWBs, mLTRs are a short term phenomenon. When women get past the age of 26 or so, they engage in such behavior less and less.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: feasibilty

Author

Boyo-

The lifespan is roughly the same as a normal monogamous relationship - there's more tumult in the beginning, but once she acclimates to the setup and provided you are treating her like a proper girlfriend, most women will "put it out of their heads" most of the time... for a while.

If she's public about the nature of the relationship, social pressure will do you in pretty quickly, yes, but if she's smart and keeps things away from the public eye you're usually fine until you start investing less in the relationship or she starts hitting the "I need marriage/babies and it feels like this isn't taking me there" stage (i.e., the 2 year drop).

Re: Jack's comment, yes, the more focused she is on settling down NOW, the more likely she is to break things off sooner if it doesn't seem like the relationship's headed in that direction. The more distant such things are to her, the more likely she is to hang around because her needs are being met and she's happy, and the ticking of her biological clock seems like a far-off thing.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Screening...


Hey Chase i`ve been wondering this for a while..

You said never to screen from one eye to the other eye when looking at a woman..

I have been doing that, i have locked my eyes on the bridge of her nose between her eyes, but what i have noticed is that women tend to screen...

I look at her and i notice she is screening my eyes, from left to right almost all the time...

The last girl i was out with i told her to not do that, i told her why are you screening :D
I couldn`t resist it, i wanted to see her reaction and her reaction was neutral, i don`t think she quite understood what i just said...

Now, what exactly does that mean ?
Is she waiting on some kind of reaction of mine ?
Testing me ?

Can you elaborate a bit on what that "Screening thing" actually means...

Oh and one more thing.
About paying for dates.
I take your advice and rarely pay for dates, but it is still uncomfortable..

I think that is a double edged sword - one way she may think of me as different from the other men, on the other way she might think i am selfish or something...

The thing i want to ask is this, is it a good idea to tell women something like this:
Me: "The reason i don`t pay on dates with women is because i think you ( women ) might get upset or offended for thinking that a man can buy you with just one drink - i think it is better if we pay for our own, because you cannot know which girl might get angry over something as silly as paying for a drink"..

Not the exact words, but something like that ... What do you think Chase ?

Chase Amante's picture

Scanning / Paying

Author

Anon-

Women in many ways are as clueless about things as men are; eye-scanning is one of these examples. Women who are very socially skilled you'll notice won't do this, and instead will use a focused, steady, hypnotic gaze. The rest though haven't even realized that this is something to think about / worry about, and will scan to their hearts' content.

The better you become socially, the more you'll realize you outpace women in terms of social awareness, which can seem unbelievable when you're starting out (and women have such a huge social head start).

Paying for dates is another of these - the ultimate objective is that you want to provide such a fantastic, incredible, value-giving experience on the date, while so fully removing yourself from boyfriend contention, that the woman herself feels social pressure to pay not just for herself, but for you - just like the man feels pressure to pay for the woman when he feels as if the dynamic is in her favor, the reverse is true when the dynamic is reversed.

If you're feeling pressure to pay, take that as an awareness of a value imbalance, and seek to provide a better experience for women on dates - immerse them more, charm them more, give them better conversation, make them feel ever freer and better understood. The more once-in-a-lifetime an experience you create, the less pressure you'll tend to feel about paying (there's also some degree of acclimating to not paying if you're accustomed to doing so).

Chase

samtheman's picture

I found a particular interest


I found a particular interest in the safe/easy mentalities that seem to permeate clubs / online dating realms. While this seems to be the easiest ways to meet women, as you mention Chase the quality of women here are less than desirable quality. While they may be initially fun and interesting, I've found in the long term that club / online girls and their 'crazyness' far outweigh any positive qualities that they may have in a relationship. The problem really starts to become larger when we become accustomed to having shitty and less fulfilling relationships not because we don't deserve better, but because we somehow think this is normal.

The best parts of life begin outside your comfort zone. Since only a small percentage of men are able to step outside their comfort zones, naturally the most amazing women are waiting for you there. Its time to get over that fear of talking to women in the day time, once that occurs a whole other world opens up.

Thanks for the post.

Tomas's picture

online dating


I agree completely with Chase. An average woman on an online dating site is broken, to an extent. And it seems that online dating makes them even more broken and enhances all the shit they can put on you.

What I find funny is the "perfect" way how women online decide. They don´t like your picture, you´re not their type. However, I had a woman fall for me after she got another picture of mine. I even had a woman fall in love in me in spite of not being her type!

Basically, an online woman can reject you for whatever reason. You are not tall enough. You are not pretty. You are prettier than her. You seem too smart while her spelling is crap. You write something that reminds her of her ex. She can reject you any time because there are always other 10 men in the queue.

The first date can be great, however she has four other dates planned and before you can have a second date, she won´t remember much about you. I was even rejected after a fantastic first date for this reason - you´re great, but you were my very first date and so dating you would feel like settling, don´t you think? Further, some women have no problem meeting other men beside you, but get very jealous and will leave you immediately if you do the same.

I think that online dating is not the right way to meet someone because women get too much power by default and they kind of cannot use that power.

Tom

Anonymous's picture

Men who seek validation from women


What if I find myself seeking validation from women? Am I broken too ?

Chase Amante's picture

Seeking Validation

Author

Anon-

No, not broken, just in need of a little tweaking if it's excessive. Everyone requires SOME degree of validation, from SOMETHING, although you're best served as a man getting the majority of your validation from building a business, or creating art, or improving your body, etc. (and you'll get peripheral validation from women for this, too).

If you find yourself seeking too much validation, I'd recommend checking out this article: "Why It’s Bad to Want to Be Liked Too Much."

Chase

Anonymous's picture

How to keep a conversation going with women?


Hi Chase,

I have had a problem for a bit of a time so far and don't really know what to do. I have had a lot of practice in the initial steps of meeting women and getting them excited, but after that, it seems like a lot of times I run out of things to say and so the quality of the conversation goes down.

For example, I would meet a girl, get her very excited, go out for lunch with her, deep dive her, leave her on a high note, and then when the 2nd or 3rd date rolls around....i struggle to deep dive as it seems I have "been there" and that I know this person better. At this point, I find myself starting to talk about myself more and more (I have some very interesting stories). However, how can I continuously keep the focus on a girl when I run out of things to say?

I am very very curious how your conversations go with women after that initial hour of deep diving. Thanks Chase!

Chase Amante's picture

Later Stages of Conversation

Author

Anon-

If you're doing multiple dates prior to sex, it's usually best to structure them as:

1. Deep diving date
2. Fun date
3. Dinner at your place date

(second "fun" date optional)

I'm against fun dates as a first date, but if you need filler between getting to know a girl very well on the first date, and sleeping with her on the third, you can throw in something fun on the second date. That can be something that allows some deep diving, with fun interruptions - e.g., dinner at Hooter's, where you have some new stimulation to trigger taking the conversation down different roads, and also Hooter's girls coming around or doing the clapping / singing thing to break up the date. A comedy show, going swimming, a hike, Dave & Buster's, etc. - all can serve this purpose on the second date.

On the third date, there shouldn't be too much conversation - you'll want to have built the sexual intrigue up enough by this point that it's just inviting her over, putting the food on, and then starting your make out / escalation / sex.

Chase

David's picture

A trouble factor that is only in online dating


Hello Chase,

I would like to talk about one special factor of online dating that can make it or break it. I think you know the same stuff like me. Use of email, sms, phone calls should be minimal and aimed to arrange the 1st date. After that, it should serve you to get the 2nd date etc. This is the opposite to chatting for hours. Unfortunately, online dating breaks this rule big time.

I think US online dating sites work differently than in my country. We don´t use online site for 2-3 email exchange and than a date, women just won´t go for this here. Instead, we use it as a "short-message communication tool". If you don´t do that, she'll just meet someone else. What it means is that the two of you get into frequent communication that continues in the first date. The problem emerges after the 1st date - what should you mail about? Logically, you should keep about the same communication rate, else she might think you´re too keen or not interested. She can see you are online and read her message, but then you don´t respond? I had women auto-reject me after I decided to limit our communication!

Chase, that aspect is something what can be considered great, but at the end, it sucks. Communication throughout your dating can help you to 1st date sex. Or if you get into some sexting, she can just come over and jump into your bed on the 2nd date. But you don´t need everyday communication to do that. The dark side is that you have enough time to fuck it up. You can lose a great woman who originally desired a 2nd date, you can creep her out by something or there can be some misunderstanding and arguments. As you write in your article, she can replace you easily if she´s online.

I would appreciate your opinion on this. Never found more information on the internet.
David

Chase Amante's picture

Messaging Between Dates

Author

David-

That sounds constricting. Is there no way to disable the other party seeing your online status / whether you've read a message or not on the site in question? If not, then you do run into the weird online dating phenomenon of you went on a date with her, and both of you had a great time, but now you're online on the site again, and so is she (or she wouldn't know you were), which more or less means you're both still looking. Puts a real damper on any kind of whirlwind romantic feeling.

If she's still sending you messages, the problem then is that if you're not answering, but she can see you're online, her assumption (which is almost certainly correct) is that you're on there hunting for additional partners - and she takes a back seat to them.

One of the strategies I employ when dabbling with online is keeping everything to a single tight window - once a day, I'll get on, belt out a bunch of messages to all the girls I need to message, write to new prospects, then log out. When you have sites where the girl can see your activity, she'll see you haven't written her back, but that you ALSO haven't been online, and she feels reassured. The once-a-day logins prevent you from getting into incessant message conversations with girls who are still messaging you on the platform after a date (despite having your phone number), and head off any emotional crises on the girls' ends at the pass.

Chase

David's picture

Thank you


Chase,

there is really a difference between a woman who is online and who is not. If you successfully pass a first date with an offline woman, she will think of you, look forward to meet you again and be unsure about you. She will often care... even if you the date wasn´t perfect or you cannot meet again until after two weeks, it´s a good chance it will work out next time. If your relationship is not exactly what she wants, she will contribute to it.

Now, if the first date with an online woman is not perfect or if you have to leave the city for 2 weeks, you can bet she will meet someone else. If your relationship is not what she wants, she will meet someone else. She gets bombarded with emails, cannot help it. Why should she care about you when there is a queue of other men?

In fact, whenever I had a fulfilling relationship with an online woman, it was always someone new to the site and I got her before the online environment could spoil her.

Regards, David

Anonymous's picture

communication post first online date


Guys,
let me share my little wisdom. I read an article here about second date strategies. Chase, yes it is great, but unusable online. You must communicate with the woman if you want get the first date. After the date everything changes. You cannot limit your conversation, else she would think 1) you play her 2) you are sure of her 3) you want her to commit. But you cannot keep your conversation like it was before the date because it destroys all mystery.
Here is the problem. Both of you will continue to login to the dating site. It´s just a click away. She will do it because she doesn´t want to look like complying to you so quickly and because there are people to chat with. You may be fair and not approach other women, but whenever she enters the site, she gets hit by 5+ other men who might be even better than you. Under these conditions her attraction to you expires quickly. A week or two and it´s over. So how do you keep her attracted? How do you get second date and not push?

My opinion is harsh. Online dating is f***ed up. I use it occasionally and actually I´m quite good at getting successful first online dates. But after several years I still dont know how to communicate after that. I keep losing many women after first date, even when we had sex.
Lukas

Anonymous's picture

Great Article


That was extremely insightful. I have read your article about not dating party girls but in this one you made couple arguments that were spot on.
I am in a relationship with a party girls so the argument with being FORCED to trust your girl was very enlightening. Thanks Chase !

lucifer's picture

Disagree about the online dating


Aaand Chase pulls another great article :D

However I disagree on the online dating thing as it's a bit of sweeping generalization (though it might be true for a %).

I have moved in this city less than 6 months ago and I've already met 3 (!) girls I know in a local popular dating website -and no, I don't know that many girls and no, I don't carefully check online profiles that often-.

Online dating today is a very popular way to meet guys.
1 of the 3 has just ended a relationship 12 years long and is a bit desperate.
The second, a colleague, is one the sweetest and most feminine girl I've met in a long time.

And these are just two examples to show that online dating is so main stream and such a normal way to meet new new people that you can't apply the same logic of the party girls.

lucifer's picture

.. And the exceptions party girl


And also about the party girls, there are many girls who go to clubs but don't actually drink -or don't get drunk- and rarely -some never- hook up.

I've seen a few like this and they were either Asians or had strong religious beliefs, I'm sure there are at least some that do it just for morals.

Some might even go there as they see it as the only feasible way to meet a guy for a serious relationship (say: they live far away from the city in a small village: how the is she supposed to meet someone?).

An exception, certainly, but one should always beware of generalization in the way of "girls going to clubs are intrinsically bad for relationship"

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