Dating and Relationship Precedent: Why It’s So Very Important


relationship precedentPoorly-set precedent: it's the scourge of relationships across the face of mankind. Every day, the whole of the male sex collectively writhes in agony at its own terribly-set precedent coming back to haunt it - and bit it right in the ass. Bad precedent is the unadulterated cause of:

  • Ending up the platonic, sexless orbiter trapped in a girl's friend zone

  • Becoming viewed as a promising boyfriend candidate instead of a lover

  • Finding yourself in a relationship where you're doing all of the work

  • Being endlessly browbeaten by an overly dramatic girlfriend

  • Losing a woman's respect and attraction in any kind of relationship

Some time back, I posted the article about operant conditioning here, and how this kind of relationship training and management is used for guiding and directing your relationships in the directions you want them to go.

We also discussed briefly in that article how incorrect use of operant conditioning actually reinforces and encourages bad behavior that is destructive to the relationship and harmful to both the man's and the woman’s levels of happiness and contentedness within it.

An understanding of operant conditioning - basically, that how you respond to good, bad, and neutral behavior from someone who's a part of your life influences how likely you are to see that behavior again, and how often, and how much it escalates - is necessary for an understanding of precedent: that what came before influences what is to come again.

And you will find that in your relationships, if you are perceptive enough, you can all but tell the future, simply by putting a microscope over the past - your past, your girlfriends' pasts, and the pasts you've shared together.

You can also determine the future, by building the kind of past precedent necessary to have the kind of future relationship you want, all by doing the right things now.

Yet, you'll find most people are not willing to do this, because a little more pain now for a lot more happiness later is a bargain 99% of people are unwilling to make.


relationship precedent

It's my experience that most people don't think too much about the past and its influence on the future; nor do they consider the future consequences of their actions now. They instead seem to be primarily focused on achieving emotional rewards in the present moment (a present-focused time orientation), with little thought given to what implications those actions might have for times yet to come.

Take the example of a guy who introduces his girlfriend to hard drugs, because he's a party guy, and he thinks it'd be a lot of fun if his girl partied right along with him. At first she's reserved; she doesn't want to. He bugs her about doing it for months; finally, she relents, because she loves him, and she wants to make him happy.

Then, she gets hooked. She starts to become addicted. The drugs take over the part of her brain that her relationships with friends, family... and even he... used to occupy.

One day, her boyfriend's supply dries up, because his dealer gets arrested, and he finds out she's been giving another guy sex in exchange for more drugs. He's crestfallen; his world has broken apart. He loved her; how could she do this to him?

But it's not some great mystery. The seeds of her eventual actions were planted all the way back when he got her onto drugs in the first place. The mistake he made was not looking ahead into the future and saying, "What do the girls I know who are hooked on hard drugs tend to do? Okay, so if I get MY girl onto drugs, what's SHE liable to do?"

Precedent is exactly like this. It is about determining the path your relationship will go down; very often, small things that seem harmless or meaningless now open you up to great potential benefits or colossal potential harm a little later on down the road.


We Learn Through Precedent

Let's say you start dating a new girl. It's only been a few months, and you're not exactly sure where you stand with her. You've been seeing another girl, but you're feeling a little bit guilty about it... what if you're hurting the girl you're seeing more regularly?

One day she's over at your apartment, and you get a text message on your phone, which she picks up and reads. "Claire says she can't meet you for dinner tomorrow," she says, handing you the phone. She then continues on with normal conversation as if she hasn't given Claire a second thought, and the rest of your evening with her proceeds as usual.

She doesn't even care! you think. It's like a load off your shoulders - and now you both appreciate her a lot more... and feel a lot more emboldened to go do whatever you want with Claire.

Here, your girlfriend has set some very clear precedent for you - she's shown you she's indifferent to you meeting up with other women, and implied it's not remotely a big deal for you. You interpret that as her express approval to date around as much as you want.

This kind of precedent also has effects on subsequent relationships; let's imagine it's two years later now, and you're dating entirely different people. Another girl is over at your apartment, and another girl you're seeing texts you that she won't be able to make dinner tomorrow.

This time, though, the girl at your apartment erupts into drama and outrage. "Who the hell is Sophia?" she demands.

relationship precedent

Now, this kicks into gear a lot of interesting effects, precedent-wise:

  1. First, it probably insults you - you're used to have a lot more leeway with your dating life. Your previous girlfriends didn't act like this - who the hell is this girl to demand you curtail your dating and limit yourself only to her?

  2. Next, if you like her, it has a chilling effect on the dating you do with other women - you'll be less motivated to date other women, feeling less moral certitude that doing so is ethically correct and unharmful of a girl you care about, and may force you to decide then and there if you're going to go monogamous; break up with the girl; or possibly turn to lies, deceit, or obfuscation about your extra-relationship dalliances

  3. Finally, whether you continue seeing other women or not, this eruption sets a precedent now where you begin concealing things from your girlfriend in order to avoid having drama erupt with her again - and things you might have freely discussed with previous girlfriends will be terra incognita with her

All these are largely unconscious responses. They're pure emotional conditioning resulting from the treatment and responses you receive from the girl in reaction to your actions and behavior.

And despite the fact that we all have them and all do them, we mostly never bother to control for them. Isn't that unusual...


You've Been Setting Terrible Precedent

If you're like most guys, and you run your relationship without an eye toward precedent, that doesn't mean you're not setting any precedent - you still are.

Everything you do with a girlfriend sets precedent.

Yet, if you've been taking "shortcuts" to do things like alleviate drama or wiggle more easily out of tough situations, you've probably been setting the worst kind of precedent you can, without even being aware you were doing it.

I'll give you a bunch of examples in the next section of all the terrible ways guys set bad precedent in their relationships, but I want to really drive this point home:

Unless you are an incredibly naturally strong, composed man who is ALWAYS on "strong mode", you set some really bad precedent at least SOME of the time.

The reason this is so is that when you are weak - even for just one moment; even in just a mildly compromising situation - what you communicate to a girlfriend is, "I can be gotten this way - you just have to find the right angle and stick the right rib."

And especially if you're younger or less experienced at relationships or dating women who are more dominant, outgoing, dynamic, or just generally more of a handful than you're used to dating, you can expect to find yourself cast back into situations every now and again that you just aren't sure how to deal with - and it's at those moments that you're most vulnerable to slipping up and setting terrible precedent for the remainder of your relationship.


relationship precedent

You've probably already guessed it, but everything on this website is designed to help you set good precedent with the women in your life. It's based around always being strong, always being attractive, and always being sexual.

If you follow this material - really follow it, and implement it, and become it - you don't need to worry so much about precedent, because you'll naturally set good precedent.

That said, an awareness of precedent is a necessity to keep your eye on the ball, especially in moments of stress, duress, and emotional turmoil... which are the moments when you're most likely to break ranks and set bad precedent.

Before we go over the mandates of good precedent though, I want to give you a number of examples of the most common ways men set bad precedent - so you can recognize these when you see them (or feel them coming on), and get out of dodge before they happen to you.


Bad Precedent Men Set

By and large, the ways men set bad precedent are the same whether the women they're setting it with are prospective lovers that they have yet to sleep with, or long-time lovers they've been in relationships with for years or decades.

There are a few forms of precedent-setting that are uniquely reserved for romantic relationships, and I'll cover those next; first, I want to start out with the most common sort - the sort you can run into with any woman you interact with.


Universal Bad Precedent

Here are the most common things a man can do to set bad precedent with any woman:

  1. Move slowly with her. Hesitate and fail to move fast, and you've just communicated a wealth of bad things about yourself: you are fearful, you are uncertain, you are unreliable, and you are unmanly. Women want men who seize what they want, act with clarity and certainty of purpose, and lead strongly. Prior to sex, this means approaching a girl, inviting her home or asking her out if you can't pull her then, setting up a date with her, taking her out, and sleeping with her all at a firm, expeditious pace. If you need to stretch that out over several dates, that's fine, so long as you're not taking too long or acting uncertain (and so long as you're not missing escalation windows).

    In a relationship, this can again be hesitancy about sex (nothing worse than being in a relationship with a girl and being afraid to make a move), but it can also be about a lot of other things - like making a decision, for instance, or stepping up to help her when you know she needs help and helping her is the right call. Move slow here, and you set the precedent of being fearful, unreliable (in a bad way), and not someone she can count on to satisfy her emotional, relationship, and sexual needs.

  2. Be overly helpful. We just mentioned moving too slow to help a girlfriend who legitimately needs help as setting bad precedent, but much of the time women ask for your help they don't legitimately need it - they just want to get you into the habit of doing favors for them and playing errand boy... because men often do for them, and, heck, if YOU could get someone running around doing stuff for you instead of you having to do it yourself, why wouldn't you? Unfortunately, women do not respect men who do this for them - they view them as supplicating, and weak. And they also view men who are eager to help as falling into that vein ever after, too - once you are an overprovider of help, value, or good feelings, this will always be expected of you - and you will never command a woman's full respect.

  3. Be indiscreet or judgmental. Women's reputations are of the utmost importance to them, and if you're a reputation or judgment risk to a woman even once, or communicate anything that paints you as a probable one, you set the precedent that you're going to be indiscreet, and she will give you only the most sanitized, angelic version of her life and times from that point forward (and appear for all the world to be the consummate "good girl" - heck, they probably invented the term for this saint of a woman!). You can forget about discreet sex, or anything other than a very long, extended, traditional courtship if you're not together with her yet, or the most virginal "I'm not like that" version of herself presented before your eyes if you're already sexual - experimental sex is out; "good girls" like her don't do that.

  4. Act careless with emotions. It only takes one or two slipups in this department to send most women spiraling into a permanent auto-rejection from which you will never see them recover with you. If a girl you're trying to sleep with is behaving aloof, making her jealous with a little preselection goes a long way, but ignoring her once she's interested again and continuing to flirt with one girl after another quickly sets the precedent that you are an insensitive prick who's going to run slipshod over her heart - and tank whatever trust she had for you down to zero. That same thing can do a number on girlfriends of yours, as can too many nights at the club with the boys, or implying she's just another girl to you. Make it clear she's nothing special, and even if you change your ways later, by then it's going to be too late; the stage is set, and she thinks of you the way she thinks of you. You're fighting precedent now.

  5. Seem controlling or insecure. You're angry she was talking to some other guy? Bad move, smoove. You look weak, frightened, and threatened by other men's sexual power over her. Guess where that puts you...? Yeah - deep into bad precedent land. Any efforts you make to try showing her how laid back, nonplussed, and unintimidated you are by other men in the future will just be seen as posing, and she's always going to know exactly what button to push any time she wants you to react a certain way - or any time she decides she needs to get even with you for something you may have done.

  6. Reward bad behavior. She pulls away? You chase. Bad precedent. Lots of guys do this though, over and over... and if you do, she'll know right away you're one of them. Want to change your tune later and act hard to get? She ain't buying it; the precedent is set, and she knows you're the chaser. Or, she flakes on a date you set, and you text her happy and friendly the next day as if nothing happened? You're her texting buddy, and the precedent of her doing whatever she wants and you just taking it is set.

  7. Flip-flopping on decisions. Reversing yourself on a whim does not look good for leadership or dominance, and does not inspire faith in said leadership or much of a desire to comply with your requests for investment. Why would you want to do what someone is asking you to do one minute, when he's likely to change what he's asking for the next? You wouldn't. This one is somewhat more recoverable from than the other forms of bad precedent, as soon as you can clearly show you've got your act together and especially if you can explain why you were wishy-washy before and no longer are now, but it's still better to not have to deal with than to have to.


Bad Precedent in Sexual Relationships

Each of these can be interpreted as an extension of one of the precedents the above, but because you may not think of them specifically, I feel they're worth listing out here:

  1. Drama = capitulation. If she causes drama and you break, fold, submit, apologize, or capitulate, unless you did something wrong but manly (i.e., you can own up to it and admit you did wrong without looking weak for either admitting that you did it or realizing it was a mistake - most mistakes are not in this category, though), you are setting the precedent that all she needs to do to get you to backpedal is break out the drama guns - and you'd best prepare yourself for an ever-increasing amount of relationship drama anytime she doesn't get her way. She's found a method that works with you: abuse = reward.

relationship precedent

  1. Drama = sex. One of the scourges of the relationship boards on the now-defunct Fastseduction boards was the intractable belief among the posters there that the ideal way of dealing with drama was to give women sex. While they were correct in deducing that 90% of drama happens because your woman is horny and/or needs to feel dominated and reassured that you care about her, and that sex almost always resolves drama on the spot, they weren't thinking precedent - and what happened, across the board so far as I could tell, was exactly what I repeatedly warned them would happen - they trained their women to become drama queens who flew into dramatic rages any time they wanted sex. The men conditioned their girlfriends and lovers to know that causing high drama for their men = great, passionate makeup sex and good feelings. If you don't like being slapped in the face with tumultuous drama day in and day out, this probably isn't the kind of precedent you want to be setting.

  2. More invested than she is. Men chase sex, women chase relationships. That's the general "way of things" in the mating game. A woman who chases after sex with a man looks desperate... and a man who chases after commitment with a woman does, too. Don't set the precedent of investing yourself emotionally into a relationship with a woman more heavily than she's invested herself; you're only setting up bad precedent where she expects you to pursue her, convince her, try to win her over, and dote on her, while she gets to call the shots and determine the pace things move at all but unilaterally. Not ideal.


How to Set Good Precedent

For what should be obvious reasons, all the GOOD precedent you'll set will be the exact opposite of that bad precedent we just talked about.

Here's what that looks like:

  1. Move fast with her. Don't dawdle, delay, act uncertain, miss escalation windows, or let attraction expire. Let the uncertain men do those things. Set the precedent that you take action when action is needed, and allow her to relax around you and trust in your guidance, instincts, and leadership.

  2. Decline to over-invest. If she truly needs your help, of course, or if you can help at very little or zero cost in energy or convenience to yourself (like, say, handing her a napkin from the napkin box sitting right in front of you), by all means - help her out. Most of the time women are asking for your help though, you can dismiss this, or offer other solutions. She doesn't have money for a drink? Order her a water and throw a lime in so it looks nice. She needs help moving apartments (and you're not sleeping together)? Offer to call the movers for her. Don't be afraid to be an asshole sometimes... especially if she's asking for something that feels like a little bit more than you should be giving her at this stage of things.

  3. Be discreet and don't judge. Simple enough. Communicate discretion, and that you are a guy who prioritizes reputation management for both her and yourself. And even when she tells you about that double-penetration she's been fantasizing about ever since seeing a porno about it on her ex-boyfriend's computer, don't blink; just stay non-judgmental, and maybe ask her if that's an invitation.

  4. Take care of her emotions. That doesn't mean you need to be a cheesy nice guy, but it does mean you need to be sensitive to your attainability levels, and how high or low these are for her. If she starts feeling like you're out of reach and she can't get what she wants with you, you've got a problem - so don't let her feel that way.

  5. Be relaxed and secure in the face of competition. Other men are trying to get her? No problem. Just stay chill. Read up on beating male competition, of course; but most of the time, if your fundamentals are tight, and your way with women is tight, you're not going to have anything to worry about... other men simply are not much of a legitimate threat. Leave the worrying to the guys whose girls are talking to you. And besides, if worst comes to worst and she does in fact leave you for someone else - well, she's not the only fish in the sea, now, is she?

  6. Cool off around bad behavior. Don't reward, and usually don't punish (but, see that article on operant conditioning to know when to do what for sure); instead, when girls are behaving badly around you... just calmly dial back your interest and effort levels. Punish bad behavior not by getting upset, but by becoming disinterested. Women thrive on attention; there is no greater punishment for most women than giving them less. They notice... trust me. And most of the time, they respond loudly and clearly (on their best behavior this time, too).

  7. Stick to your decisions. If you make a decision, see it through. If you must change, give a good reason for it, and, where practical, either involve her in the decision as well, OR impulsively lead to something you proclaim is more interesting. e.g., let's say you tell her you want to get crab cakes, and she says "okay", and the two of you start walking to a seafood restaurant; you then get a sudden craving for croissants instead. If you pass by a croissant restaurant on the way, you can say, "Whoa, croissants - I changed my mind, I want croissants! Do you want croissants?" and you'll be dandy.

  8. Remain calm but resolute in the face of drama. If you're new to relationships, this can seem hard to do, but drama DOES blow over... and it's much, much, much better to make important decisions when calm than when under extreme emotional pressure from a dramatic girlfriend. Let the drama blow over with plenty of "I understand"s and repeating back to her in calmer words what she's telling you the problem is, or, if it's a serious relationship and she's really freaking out, you can take some of the stronger drama-fighting measures we talked about in the operant conditioning article. Just make sure you put off ALL changes or decisions about ANYTHING until AFTER the drama is over. The heat of the moment is nearly always a terrible time to do anything other than capitulate; heat folds metal, it doesn't strengthen it.

  9. Ban sex after drama. Most couples follow up drama with hot makeup sex. Big no-no here. You can be very clear about it with her when she starts getting all affectionate after the drama has passed: "I don't want us to sleep together now, because it's going to condition your subconscious to associate drama with hot sex, which means anytime you start feeling horny your subconscious is going to say, 'Go make your boyfriend's life miserable!' and you will comply, and our relationship is just going to get increasingly tense and probably break." Just reinforce this idea any time she begs, pleads, or seduces after drama, and put off sex until the next morning. The next day is fine; just no sex on the day of. Don't train her to make your life suck just because she wants to get laid.

  10. Always be a little bit less invested than she is. Too much less, and she'll auto-reject because it'll feel like you don't care about her; and if you're the same or more invested than she is, it'll feel like you're "equal partners" (decidedly un-sexy) or that you're chasing after the relationship with her and she's the one who's on the fence. Instead, be a bit less invested, and let her chase after you a bit in the relationship - she will enjoy the relationship a whole lot more, and so too will you.


All is Precedent

You're setting precedent all the time with everything you do. Trying to fix bad precedent by building good precedent on top of it is a little like trying to fix a bad foundation for your home by building a better building on top of the bad foundation. The building might be nice, but there's still a lot of crummy construction holding it up underneath.

It's better to just not set bad precedent in the first place.

So, be mindful of what you're saying, doing, and communicating - especially between the lines. Your actions and behavior mean more than you think - they influence not just your present with another person, but your future, too.

Because we're not interacting with strangers - we're interacting with people who know us, who come to expect certain things from us, and who come to view us - and what they can and cannot get away with with us, and what our expectations are of them - in a certain light.

Keep this always in mind, and always have a half an eye turned toward precedent, and you won't much have to worry about it.

You'll only worry about it then and there, in the moment - and maybe suffer a little bit longer in the present to do things more correctly and avoid setting yourself up for future failure - and then the moment will be past, and you'll be back to enjoying yourself.

Only, the precedent you'll have set will be good - instead of bad.

Chase

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Comments

Sajid's picture

Marriage and success


Dear Chase,

Thanks for this wonderful article on stating relationships Chase ! I really appreciate your blog.

I need your inputs on the relationship of marriage with financial success. You have mentioned in few articles that societies which favor marriage are more stable & successful societies. How does this work out at the individual level ? Don't you think guys who are married and are in a stable relationship with their wives would be doing better than unmarried guys (in terms of wealth, career etc.) ? I mean these married guys would be focused on building wealth. They wont be spending time competing with other guys for beautiful women. In other words do you think there is a direct correlation between marriage and financial success ? I will appreciate your inputs regarding this.

Keep up the good work :-)

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Marriage and success

Author

Sajid-

A number of studies seem to indicate that marriage has a large positive effect on men's lifetime earning capacity. Married men seem to focus more on work (less distracting outside interests like partying, sleeping with girls, hanging with the boys, etc.), and behave more conservatively in their approach to finances (make more, save more - you've got a family to provide for).

On the downside, men in committed relationships who stop desiring and pursuing additional women experience a large testosterone drop, and a subsequent production drop to go along with it.

So, it might be said that marriage makes you more financially successful, more conservative, less masculine, and less productive. Essentially, you trade single male risk taking and extremes for a more stable, solid settled male life. Most men seem to tire of the ups and downs of single male life and take this trade at some point.

Chase

Sajid's picture

Chase I really appreciate


Chase I really appreciate your reply. Your work has had a profound effect on how I deal with women. You have made a very important change in my life and several other men like me. Thanx again man :-)

Anonymous's picture

Are you saying testosterone


Are you saying testosterone production is mostly mental and thus the answer to higher levels of testosterone is to immerse yourself in sexual thoughts? what is the inverse is for women (What happens to them in relationships)?

I was dating a party girl -- she didn't have any hobbies except drinking, wasn't responsible etc. -- but when I first met her she acted like the complete opposite and I thought she was an angel. I think she was the type that genuinely wanted to be responsible at heart but was also lazy and very impulsive. I could say I was completely fooled but would you say that it was even an act or did I just bring out that nurturing side of her and I made her act and want to act that way? If she acts that way around me and I continue to reinforce that in her will that side of her last or will her true nature eventually resurface? I keep running into these types of situations and would like to know if there's a way to identify a woman's "true" nature and if it's possible to change it.

Thx.

JPB's picture

Relationships vs being single


I agree with much of this, perhaps apart from the decrease in testosterone. If you are working out hard and eating right you can keep high levels. The only problem with this is that high-testosterone means you constantly want other females even if you are in a relationship.
This is my experience at the moment. Having traded in playing the field pretty intensely for one really high-quality hot girl, I have started to spend more time on work and working out with good benefits for my career and body. I am very happy with the woman and in life.

The only problem is - the young player inside me - he just won't go away. I still find myself desiring other women and it is a constant fight to maintain control not to get my mack on with new girls. The only thing driving this is my masculine desire for sexual variety and new pussy - that may sound crude but it's true. It presents a dilemma: Stay faithful and battle my inner sexual caveman, break up and go back to being single and having variety, or cheat.

None are particularly attractive options - staying faithful will be increasingly difficult as time goes on as even though my girl is great, eventually the craving for new women will become too strong - breaking up is a bad option because this girl is simply superior to other women I meet and I enjoy her company a lot. This is not about her, its about my desires - Cheating is also not a good option simply because it necessarily entails lying. Lies can have a corrosive affect on relationships and trust over the long-term.

I'm looking for a solution to this and it's not easy. My woman is quite sexually adventurous and she's only 21 so threesomes may be an option and this would sate my appetite to some extent. The reality is though, I expect myself to cheat at some point. It's sad but I know myself - sex is very important to me. Perhaps if I'd set the precedent of a non-monogamous relationship at the start as I have done in previous relationships I may have been in a better situation. Unfortunately though this girl made it clear to me that this would not be acceptable to her due to unpleasant past experiences. Maybe I should have passed on the girl in that case but I just wanted her SO much I basically accepted those conditions.

I'm sure this is something that virtually every man goes through. I know I have many times in the past. The difference is that in every other relationship I could accept losing the girl as I didn't consider them a 'rare' find. Desirable sure - but not truly rare in looks and personality. The girl I'm with at the moment is truly rare - I'd say her body is perhaps a 1 in 1000 if not more - truly spectacular beyond belief - like considerably hotter than virtually every female celebrity you could name. Her personality too is also fantastic - relaxed and drama free. Why then would I still desire other women? I ask myself the same damn question - my only response is that I just do - I can't help my desires.

Any input is appreciated.

Franco's picture

Recommended Read


Understanding precedent-setting and congruency are two things every man learning to become better with women should prioritize.

Women define who you are in their minds by every action you take, and this is especially true of the actions you take before taking a woman as your girlfriend. Everything you do will be analyzed by her to determine what type of man you are, and women are very perceptive when it comes to doing this. If you learn to set good precedent from the very moment you say "Hello" and follow through with congruent actions, a woman will respect you and fall for you harder than you can imagine.

This is certainly a recommended read for beginners, and it recommended for advanced members as well (as a reminder)!

Cheers,

Franco

Troy's picture

Birtdays


Hey Chase,

Ive got a quick question today. long story short. I have this exgirlfriend that never contacts me. I realized that i always call or text before she does. It bothered me so i cut contact with her since then. we were together for two months and broke up in december 2012. Every now and again we talk but i never see her except two times since. My birthday is before hers in april and heres is in august. What i want to know is if i cut contact with her, how should i deal with her not even texting me to say happy birthday? Should i cut contact for now until about 1 week from my birthday then remind her? its almost christmas and she never tets me. should i tell her merry christmas or just forget about her and doing that. its not that i want her back, its just that i feel like i am chasing and she never puts in any work to contact.I still want to remain friends with my exgirlfriends but i always have to initiate contact. What should i do in these situations when special holidays come up? Contact her first depending on the situation and how long we have been out of contact? I think you get what im asking. thaks in advance!

Troy

Chase Amante's picture

Objective

Author

Troy-

I'm not certain what the objective is here. If she never contacts you first, why keep contacting her unless you want to?

If you WANT to send her a message and wish her Merry Christmas, do so. If you don't feel like it, don't.

Unless you have some other objective in contacting her other than just to occasionally stay in contact with her, I don't see any reason to fret about this. (e.g., is it important that she contact you for your birthday? You're not in a relationship, and never see each other - I'd be more worried about getting some new cute girl as a girlfriend, and having THAT girl contact me for my birthday... and maybe come over for some good birthday lovin'!)

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Very good article...


This was very good...Even for those that know most if not all this already, I agree...this is definitely something to read over time and again to refresh your memory in those trying times with a girl when you could do something that could make your life worse with her form that point on...or really improve your relationship. Definitely something to always be aware of.

Royce's picture

Girl flirts


Hey Chase, awesome article and thanks for replying to my comment on the previous article. My question is: there is a girl in my social circle that generally flirts with a lots of guys. She doesn't like them(or me) but she seems like she is always surrounded by guys that are trying to get at her and even though she replies like she is interested, it's just her way with everyone. Any way of getting her to find you more attractive then the other guys. Btw I don't like her, I've just
wondered what girls like that reply to. Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Club Queens

Author

Royce-

I call these girls "club queens", and you can see how I recommend going about getting them right here: "Girl Types: Club Queens."

Chase

Gem's picture

Relationships/Conservative Girls


Hey Chase

I liked the article, really something resourceful to think about even for guys that are going out a lot meeting new girls but not planning to get into a relationship in the near future. It’s something that I've been seeing/hearing/thinking about throughout my day today; I spend time with friends fairly infrequently but had a good lunch with two friends of mine today. Both of my friends are 19; one of them is in a great relationship with a high value girl who he has lots of sex with and (through learning from mistakes made with past girls) he has seemingly implemented many of the precedents noted in this article into his relationship. The other friend had done the opposite; he’s a competitive bodybuilder and just recently broke off an awful relationship of 3 years (he had a laundry list of problems from being withheld sex to being cheated on and being nagged for bulking and working out) and me and my first friend were happy for him that he chose to get out of a bad thing.

I really love being single but one of the girls I have been seeing recently I enjoy a great deal, really have no holdups with her, and have been considering starting a relationship with her (and seeing relationships of other friends has had me lately thinking more about this concept of precedence and how to go about creating and maintaining a genuinely healthy, enjoyable relationship).

This girl (I had mentioned her before the love at first sight girl from the gym) is pretty conservative, doesn’t drink or party, stays in shape, has a good career etc. But I’m curious and wary here regarding several topics:

What defines a conservative girl? I’ve read the article about not dating girls who drink or party and I feel the same way regarding girls a guy is getting into a relationship with. But my question here is what specifically defines a conservative girl. I’ve dated girls that don’t drink but might have a shot at new years with family, girls who don’t drink or party or go clubbing but smoke weed occasionally, girls that don’t do anything but smoke cigarettes, etc. the list goes on of different variations.
Also, to add to this, how do you make sure to keep a conservative girl conservative? I understand not taking girlfriends to a club but what about taking them out to a hookah lounge, or a bar, or out when you smoke weed (or if you do that with them and introduce it to them like the example from this article).

I plan to make the girl my girlfriend sometime soon within a few weeks, but also in addition, I think about how could I or should I go about setting the precedent of not being fully exclusive to the girl? It is something I am considering because I don’t want to stop meeting new girls if I get with this girl because I am only near the beginning of my adventures with women and fear letting any hard-gained proficiency with women of mine deteriorate throughout the course of a relationship.

Any insights here would be much appreciated.

Thanks Chase,

-Gem

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Relationships/Conservative Girls

Author

Gem-

Sounds like a horrible relationship your bodybuilder friend had, yeah. Hopefully he learns from it, and doesn't get stuck being one of these guys whose relationships just replay the same scenarios again and again, just with different people each time.

"Conservative" is a very relative term. e.g., if you're a wild sex heathen who's worked as a bartender or a DJ in some international party spot like Cancun or Cabo or Las Vegas or Koh Phangan for the past 10 years and you've slept with 600 party girls over the course of those 10 years, a girl with 80 partners who's never yet been double-penetrated is going to seem almost virginal to you. It's completely relative to your own preferences, experience level, and what you're looking for in a partner. At the other extreme, if you're a Christian virgin who's waiting until marriage, a girl who's even kissed other guys might make you tie yourself up in knots on the inside trying to decide if you can get past it or not.

Personally, I'm fine with taking girlfriends to a small bar or a nightclub with me every now and again and having a drink in a non-crazy-party type place on occasion; I just won't date girls anymore who go to these places on their own. The occasional beer at home or in a bar like this if I'm around seems fine to me. If she's smoking or doing shots, she's not something I'd consider girlfriend material... these are pretty bad habits, and they're usually picked up in dicey situations.

On non-exclusivity, I have a comment in this article: "How to Start a Relationship with a New Girlfriend" about this, that I'll quote here:

Hey Mike,

Ricardus has a couple of posts up that deal with this to a degree here:

Don't Hurt a Girl: The Importance of Expectations

How to Date Multiple Women (with Zero Drama)

I have a mini-speech I give girls when I start getting protestations about wanting something serious here:

Where Do You See This Going?

Aside from that though, I can't recommend maneuvering women into staying with you when they want exclusivity and you do not. I did it when I was inexperienced because I thought I knew better than the girls themselves did, and it'd be good for a while, but it always ended in a lot of damage, broken hearts, and upset, despite me being totally forthright.

The lesson I took away from all of that is, if you really care about her, listen to what she's saying she wants, and either give it to her, or let her know you can't and leave it at her discretion to stay with you or not. Many times when you're pursuing casual relationships, women will leave for a while to have a serious relationship, then return to you again later (provided you let them go on good terms, of course) when they start wanting a stronger man than the one they ended up dating after you.

Chase

Chase

Velour's picture

Wow


Fantastic article. Cheers!

Anonymous's picture

Dating and relationships


Excellent article and timing! A few points I hope you can comment on:

1. I think from everything I have read about having to set boundaries etc. made me come across as controlling and too serious. Girls who were challenging and wild did not want to be told what to do.

2. A girl pulled an empty cigarette box out of her purse once and handed it to, implying for me to throw it away. It was out of the blue and so strange. Now that I think about it it could have been a test. If you're shopping should you really expect her to hold her own bags before you do? It seems really assholish and most women seem to genuinely appreciate a man who does things for them.

3. This is probably an article in and of itself, but how do you be less invested than her if you really like her and does the rest of the relationship just become one giant micromanaged front? Maybe you could explain what it means to be less invested or how other variables can influence attraction (like how if someone who is a catch and has options is more attractive than someone who has less going for him even though they're both infatuated with the girl). Or do I need to pick someone who's less invested than I am and sacrifice my own interest?

Also it would be great if you could delve more into the intricacies of relationship game. Particularly how it is different from the point up until consummation and how it changes. Much of what is taught is in the form of process and it would help a lot to understand relationship game in those same terms, which i'm sure is probably mostly the same but in different order or amounts etc. Keep up the great work!

Chase Amante's picture

Relationship Control and Dynamic Changes

Author

Anon-

Yes, you can certainly be too stiff. You do want to be in control, but you want to aim for a loose, casual, effortless kind of control, rather than a rigid by-the-books sort.

The cigarette box thing seems unusual. I would've just ignored it, unless she verbally asked me to throw it away, in which case I'd laugh and tell her "Trash can's over there!", unless there was a good reason for me to do it for her (e.g., I was right next to the waste basket, and it was out of her reach or she'd really have to lean to get it - then it makes sense for me to take it from her and drop it in there).

On shopping - of course! Why would you want to be her mobile hang rack? :) More to the point: it's usually better to just NOT go shopping with women at all. When there are no menservants around to carry heavy items for them, women magically buy less. You're actually helping her save more of her income! Also, instead of spending hours hanging out at the food court while you wait for her to complete her weekly rounds of every clothing shop on floors 3, 4, and 5 of the local mall, you can do something more productive and interesting, or, conversely, more entertaining, with yourself - business, reading, video games, hanging out with friends, meeting girls who don't shop quite so much, etc.

On investments in a relationship, yes - I'll jot that one down for an article. I'll have to think about it… I've just always had girlfriends who through themselves into relationships with me far more than I did with them. I think it's down to a "what's the point of your life" thing - for me, it's skill-building and business-building; women are peripheral to that, so over-investing in them has never remotely been an issue. For pretty much every woman out there though, the right guy, if she can get him, is the point of her life. However, I recognize that relationships can be a really central thing for a lot of guys out there too, and that's going to complicate things - it's hard not to go crazy on investment when she's your center point, or close to it.

And, noted on the dynamic change per-intimacy to post-intimacy - I'll add that one to the queue for an article too.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

typing


Hi chase do you think christina aguilera is a party girl? How can you tell a highly sexual woman who is promiscuous from one that is loyal, committed and has eyes only for her man?

And what does it mean when a girl acts in every way like a good girl sometimes and a bad girl at others? Is she the latter in disguise?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: typing

Author

Anon-

I don't know much about Christina Aguilera (is she still making music?), but pretty much everyone who goes through Hollywood is a party person. The people who make it to the top are always inveterate attention-seekers, and attention-seekers tend to be attracted to party environments, because these are some of the easiest environments to pick up LOTS of attention in.

A girl who acts "like a good girl" some of the times and "like a bad girl" occasionally is usually a repressed woman who is struggling to break free of her cultural conditioning. She is a wild-child at heart, but she's been socialized to be cultured and reserved. When she completes her sexual awakening, she will shift to mostly "bad girl" / "free spirit" while she goes through the emotional maturation process.

Chase

Albert 's picture

Free spirits and structurists


Quick question - are free spirits attracted more to other free spirits or structurists? Which dynamic is ideal for a relationship?

I'm thinking maybe opposites create chemistry while sameness creates friendship.

Anonymous's picture

compliance


Hey Chase,

Hope you can answer my questions.

What is the best way to react when a girl stops paying me attention unless I comply with her? For example when she tells me to move away from her a little and then stops talking to me and uses her phone when I won't.

Also when I ask her to do something and she won't do it, I keep persisting and it becomes a playful game where I persist and she declines or tells my to do it myself. For example I ask her to move closer and she says she feels comfortable at her current place, then I keep persisting and it usually goes nowhere. How to keep face in this situation?

Chase Amante's picture

Rejected Compliance

Author

Anon-

When you get hard rejected compliance like this, assuming it's a girl you're trying to pick up, it's usually done. The exception is if you frame-break and really get her attention by challenging her hard, getting her emotional, then cooling her down and getting her complying again - but that's very advanced, and if you don't immediately see how to do it just from that description, it isn't something you'll be able to pull off just yet. The other possible solution is doing a hard push, and just insisting multiple times that she do as you're asking - if she's giving you a hard rejection, she'll almost never change her mind, but the interaction's dead anyway, so you've got nothing to lose.

Otherwise, just throw a bored look on your face, glance off to the site like, "Well, who knows what's up with THAT weirdo?" and then turn your body away somewhat. It's usually better if you can just chill for a while here - listen to an audio book, text a buddy, stare off into the distance - and wait for her to leave if you're trying to maximize how much face you save socially. Then it looks like you just wanted to sit there, and chatted her up because hey, why not, she was there anyway (as opposed to you leaving first, in which it's pretty clear you went there expressly for her, got rejected, and then ran away).

If you're in a crowded place thought (big, loud nightclub), there's no point hanging around, because you're just wasting time you could spend talking to other girls, and very few people will have noticed you walk there, sit down, talk to her, get rejected, get back up, and leave. Most will only see some part of that, and not have enough information to draw a full conclusion about what happened.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

I appreciate your reply


I appreciate your reply Chase.

But what if this happens when I'm alone with the girl at her or my place?

Anonymous's picture

Polarization


Hi chase, ive been seeing the concept of direct game being preached more in these circles, with the rationale being that its polarizing. It seems like you dont support it as much, im guessing beacuse it can come across as chasing, but at the same time it is very polarizing and intriguing for women while signaling some strong male traits. Wouldnt anything less come across as feminine and beating around the bush?

Chase Amante's picture

Direct vs. Indirect

Author

Anon-

I'm a huge advocate of direct! Some of my most memorable lays and girlfriends have resulted from direct opens, and I used to have forum-battles back in my day with people who thought direct was weak and not "good game" / not effective. I think it can be a little hard for guys to start off with when they're new to women, but I view it as pretty much the style of opener every guy should try to move to as soon as he thinks he's ready. Some of the stuff I have on this site on direct:

Ricardus also has an implied direct opener article here:

That said, there's a range of different kinds of openers you can use (direct/genuine interest, playful/nonverbal, implied direct, indirect direct, true indirect); the only one I'd caution guys to usually stay away from is true indirect. I talk about the other forms of indirect and how and when to use them (vs. direct, or implied direct) here:

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Modeling actors.


Hey Chase, i`ve been thinking this for a while and need to ask you this.

In many articles you stated for us to model some of the actors on the movie screen, such as their moves, speech, gestures etc.

Ever since i watched this movie ( on of the best movies i have watched ) i recognized a lot of what you teach here in that character.

The movie is called "The Last Time" - it is about a salesmen ( your area of expertise :) )

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469689/

Now Michael Keaton`s character is the one i want to model.

He portrays almost everything you teach, although some things are not there, ofcourse, not everything can be there.

Now what i am asking is this, if you have watched this movie and know what Keaton`s character is, is it a good idea for me to model the character of Keaton in the movie ??

Thanks again Chase.
Regards.

Chase Amante's picture

Michael Keaton

Author

Anon-

I haven't seen that movie, but I've seen other films with him in it. Keaton's a good actor. There's always been some part of me that really liked his characters, and some other part that was always just slightly bothered by them... hard to put a finger on. On net, I like him.

I'd probably hit the search engines and search for "Is Michael Keaton sexy?" and see what the Internet has to say. I'd probably also start asking girls who were the kinds of girls I'd like to date what they thought of Michael Keaton, if he was sexy, and how he compares to other actors. That should give you a good baseline.

Chase

BBJW's picture

Too invested?


Hey Chase,

So I've been dating this girl for two months now. We have a lot of mutual friends, so see quite a bit of each other. That Beeing said, it seems that I am always the one who has to initiate one-on-one dates as well as text conversations etc... I have tried the whole letting go to see if she'll chase, but it just results in a week of no alone time. We're in highschool, and she has never had a boyfriend before, and our friends tell me that she is just really nervous and clueless. In this case what do you suggest? I don't want to be the more committed one in the relationship, but if I'm not, it seems as if there wouldn't be any relationship at all. And please don't just tell me to find another girl, because this one is really special to me. :)

Thanks for your continuos support,
BBJW

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Too invested?

Author

BBJW-

I can't comment intelligently on dating dynamics in high school, as that isn't an environment I have any real experience in.

We have some guys on the boards with a little more experience there than I have though - one post in particular that might be useful is this one by Richard: "High School Pick Up."

You might also try posing your question on the boards and seeing if some of the other high school guys or guys who did okay for themselves in high school have insights, too.

Chase

EricD's picture

Framing


Chase you talk a lot about chase framing but I notice myself and other guys often do the opposite. It's more of a context thing, though I'm not sure if I could even articulate it.

Let me try by presenting few examples:

-A girl whom I'd been flirting with comes over, kind of stumbles, and says something about her falling all over the place. I remark with and "mishear" her as, "what, you're falling for me?" which really gets her wiles going.

-A girl is being difficult or challenging and I start interpreting it as sexy by pouring on comments like "that's a really cute attitude you've got going on there" or "god I want you to have my babies"

(these first two could both be considered chase framing? not because anyone is the pursuer/chaser but because you are implying that you are the one in control and they're just expressed in different styles?)

-A girl is waiting for a taxi, and you say "a beautiful woman shouldn't be standing out in the cold by herself" in a bit of an over-the-top way.

(this one seems to be less of a chase frame and more of a compliment. is there a time and place for these kinds of comments or are they just much less effective than chase framing? I'm sure it depends on how you gauge her interest level and receptiveness, also taking into consideration whether or not she's average looking or a stunner. So the issue is, I'm sure any of these would work at different times, so am I overthinking this or is there a formula to this? i could easily say you should be more chase framing to a stunner and compliment an average looking girl but I'm sure you know that you could easily reverse those strategies and still have them work consistently.)

Regardless of the three examples, I'm discerning that it's shameless flirting at any opportunity you can get whenever the opportunity presents itself. It doesn't matter who's being "chased" because in each situations it's only about creating emotion and demonstrating non-neediness. I could have said something like "you even make falling look so beautiful" in a genuine way in the first example and it would have accomplished the same thing, although it would create a more loving vibe than a sexy one, similar to the effects of example 3. So maybe the question is, when is the right time to be loving and when to be sexual? Or are those two really just the difference between compassion/connection and sex/chemisty?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Framing

Author

Eric-

Your first example qualifies as chase framing, although normally you'd want to make it a statement rather than a question, in order to minimize pushback, e.g.: "It's okay, girls fall for me all the time..."

The second one's what you term "shameless flirting", and it can be effective given the right delivery, status, and nonverbals - one of the first lines Michael Douglas spoke to Catherine Zeta-Jones was "I'd like to father your children," and a few years later, he did.

Beautiful vs. sexual is usually down to the value differential between you and the girl. For instance, if you're an incredibly handsome man with high social status and incredible personal magnetism, and she's an average girl who's a little tubby and has the personality of a wooden block, going sexual will frequently put her hackles up and make her feel like you're trying to use her, while complimenting her on her beauty will disarm her. The reverse is true for a really beautiful / charismatic / high status woman; here, complimenting her on her beauty makes you sound like a supplicant, while getting sexual paints you as a bad boy with the audacity to not be flummoxed by her; someone worth getting to know, if everything else about you is in good order.

This article goes into that distinction a bit more in detail: "How to Treat a Woman: Like a Queen, or Like a Whore?"

Chase

Chase

EricD's picture

Also


By the way, in the first example, is it better for you to approach women or have them approach you? In the second example, is it only good to be cheeky when you know she's not actually in a bad mood, whereas if she is sad about something, tired, mad -- i guess you could say if her attention is elsewhere -- then being cheeky is somewhat less effective and almost emotionally inappropriate. Or is it better to be light and playful regardless? There will be situations where being light and playful will bring someone out of his/her own mood/focus, but how do I know when to do this and when to feel with them instead? I know it's difficult to discuss calibration through comments but I feel I might be on to something here!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Also

Author

Eric-

Being approached is usually superior to doing the approaching yourself, though most of the time you'll still need to handle the approaching side of things.

Playfulness you can use almost whenever, but you've got to gauge it; especially if she seems to be in a sour mood, ping her with something playful, and if she doesn't lighten up, act a little bored around her to put some social pressure on to get with the program. If she's REALLY in a bad / sad mood, don't do too playful; either avoid chatting her up, or go talk to her and talk in a gentler town, and tease very lightly in a sad voice / lightly playful way.

The one good alternative to playful that you can use is steamy sensuality / mystery, and that one's usually good for women in most modes too, except very high energy modes (wild partying). It can even work well with women in bad moods, done properly.

Chase

DAVID's picture

Heu chase! I Am interested in


Heu chase! I Am interested in making my relationship last... Is the key to do as many exciting things together as possible or is it aboutgood game, and treating her ocassionally naughty and then Nice?

Chase Amante's picture

Relationship Longevity

Author

David-

Check out these articles on relationship management:

... as well as the relationship series by Ricardus, beginning here:

They'll address both questions!

Chase

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