Like a Moth to the Flame

I used to think the old phrasing was a fairly straightforward affair. Moths, and flames... one remains in place, bright and beckoning, while the other flutters toward it with abandon, desperate to bask in the light of its warmth and radiance.

“Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova... and it would seem to be simple enough advice.

moth to the flame

Yet, one of the things that you learn you must be as you drive ever deeper into seduction is nuanced, not straightforward.

Complex, not simple.

A woman does not fancy a man who is too easily understood. Nor is being that man quite nearly as interesting.

And I realized, while thinking some things over one night working in a room, watching a number of large brown moths fluttering frantically and futilely at my window screen to enter the room and reach the light, and a number of smaller insects that had dropped, burned and singed onto my bed cover, after having attained the object that called to them so alluringly from the ceiling above, that this turn of the phrase was one that, like the men and women it describes, has a bit more nuance to it than it seems at first.

moth to the flame

“I’ll save you, milady!” cries the dashing white knight as he rides up to save the weeping damsel in distress, wounded deeply from her passion-filled but ultimately scorching encounter with a seductive charmer.

Weeks or months later, he stands there, bitter and hurt, burnt by the alluring female flame he flew to only to watch her become a moth again and fly after the next smoldering man to capture her heart and affections, leaving her would-be rescuer behind in the dust.

The world of romance spills over with moths and flames, and what one is to one person is not always the same as what one is to another.

If you are a skilled seducer – irresistible to women, and talented with them – most of the women you meet, to you, will be moths.

Yet, to a man far less skilled than you – who’s spent far less time meeting women and developing his expertise with them; who’s invested far less time in his appearance, composure, and comportment – every woman he sees will be a flame that he flutters toward, heart brimming with hope and anticipation.

It is easy for that man to look down on the seducer as a man who burns women... those same women that he, the moth, flutters ever after.

What is more challenging still is when you realize that there is no fire that does not burn; all intentions of the flame beside the matter.

You may be a flame with sadistic intent.

Or you may be one with a heart of gold.

But either way, when the moth gets too close, it is burned just the same.

On Being the Flame

Many of history’s most famed seducers clearly seem to be low or no empathy individuals who take pleasure in the women they enjoy, with little thought to the human cost of their encounters, in terms of broken dreams, altered life paths, and jaded and embittered women.

If you are a more empathetic individual, the path of the seducer is one that challenges you, without ever providing a clear “right” answer.

The men who chase women – the moths – are quick to judge you; you, the flame, burn those moths that come to you... therefore, you are bad.

As these men gather more experience with women and become embittered (nearly always), they also come to judge women... women are their flames, and when they fly to them, they invariably are burned themselves... therefore, women, too, are bad.

Soon you learn that you are bad and women are bad, but perhaps you are worse, because maybe those women would not be so bad were it not for bad men like you depriving them of what they want (namely... you), and your choices are threefold:

  1. Give every woman what she wants from you (marriage and commitment)

  2. Quit sleeping with women altogether and live a life of inaction and celibacy

  3. Continue being the flame, and continue to scorch and burn

You can seek to direct your flames and burn less and do less harm and not damage as much. You can get better at setting expectations; at not hurting girls; at removing yourself so far out of boyfriend consideration that it’s not remotely realistic for a girl to think she has a shot at tying you down.

moth to the flame

Yet, regardless, there are always still women who “don’t get it”, or choose not to get it... women who believe that against all odds, they can rope you into something long-term and continuous and monogamous. No matter what you’ve told or shown them or how you’ve acted around them. You are so exceptional for them, and they are so confident in themselves, that of course they know they can do it.

These are the ones who flutter right into the center of your flame. And as the flame, you can bend and whip away as much as possible, but you cannot stop the moth from flying in.

Time and again, they emerge from the experience with beautiful wings charred, and if you have a soul it leaves you feeling torn for it... but there is only ever so much that you can do.

On Being the Moth

The moth lives for the excitement of the chase. When you are the moth, the world is filled with emotion; you are not in control, and instead you hope, pray, and dream.

When one day, in your meanderings, you spy a beautiful flame in the distance. Ah! you say to yourself, I must have her!

And so you fly after her, filled with desire to obtain her, to bask in her warm glow.

Just as most of the time that a moth flies after a light source he never reaches it – he sees the moon but cannot get there – so too do you often fail when pursuing some dancing, flickering flame in the distance that entices you so.

Yet, every now and then, you get her... and circle her in her warmth... and smile at her light... until you are drawn in so close that the inevitable happens, and you are burned.

And you feel betrayed! How could she, the beautiful flame, burn you as she did? How cruel is she to do this to you? Does she not know how long it’s taken you to reach her? How many promising lights and fires you’ve pursued but never attained before reaching her? How much work it was, to get inside the screen, and finally arrive at where she is?

You back away, wingtips ashen and heart smarting, only to notice that you were not the only one, and maybe never were – there are more moths circling around your flame; being burned; and others still showing up to replace them all the time.

Were you not special to her? Was it all an illusion?

You fly away, back into the night, with damaged wings and damaged pride, thinking poorly of the flame... until you spot another source of light, and emotion overcomes you, and you fly desperately toward it... or perhaps you cross by that old flame again, and despite your better judgment find yourself inexorably drawn back... perhaps, you think, this time she will not burn you.

moth to the flame

When I was younger, and more idealistic, I was convinced that it must be possible to be a charming, sexy man who is alluring to women and draws them in and provides them unforgettable experiences, yet does so so delicately and so sublimely that they are never hurt.

Yet, despite my best efforts, I have found that periodically, no matter how careful I am, women get hurt with me. I’m better at avoiding this now than I was when less experienced... but I’m also far more alluring to the opposite sex now than I was when less experienced.

You cannot be “the flame that doesn’t burn”; there is no such flame as this. All flames burn. And if you become a man who attracts women to himself, you will burn too.

The best that you can do is to learn to keep away those moths prone to flying too close... and to put a damper on your flame around the moths who do regardless.

Which Moths to Gently Shoo Away

One of the things I avoid as much as possible now is sleeping with any woman who knows me remotely well through a social circle setting.

I have seen it repeatedly; when women know you through social circle, if you are an attractive, uncommon man, they will want, hope for, and chase hard after commitment.

And when they don’t get it, it’s a real blow.

There are two factors there that influence how large the effect is:

  • How long she’s known you, and
  • How alluring your flame is to her

If she’s known you but a short while, yet your flame is extremely alluring... or if your flame is only somewhat alluring, yet she’s known you a long while... if you only sleep with her once or twice and do not repeat after this, and do not offer her a relationship after this, she will be burned.

Another one I have noted is those kinds of girls who are soft and inexperienced (FT/IN on the 4 kinds of girls scale). These women, even when met through cold approach, can be mesmerized by you; they will think you have just stepped out of a romance novel, and are here to bring them their happily ever after. They are invariably disappointed when the night of passion does not lead to a life of passion; they have great expectations for you... far greater than you probably want to provide, or even can provide.

Conversely, soft and experienced women will be excited, but cautious; they’ve been with men like you before, and they know how it all plays out. Strong and inexperienced women may not have been with a similar man yet, but they are less dreamy and more practical about the world than their soft peers, and will be a lot more likely to simply drink in the experience for whatever it is worth.

For these reasons, I try to not sleep with women I know through social circle (too messy for my tastes), and I prefer to not sleep with soft and inexperienced women I meet through cold approach... although this cannot always be avoided...

And in any event, as your skill as a seducer increases, your responsibility to set expectations as best you can does as well.

Because, more and more, you come to possess increasingly lopsided power in all your social and romantic interactions.

What Flames Owe Moths

“I am glad for your company, beautiful moth... yet advise you against drawing too near lest you be burned.”

This is the sentiment I urge you to convey to women who are entering (or seeking to enter) your life in any romantic capacity... once you are good. Once you do have this burning effect upon women inadvertently and accidentally.

Since the flame is the one that hypnotizes, and the one with the capacity to damage, I view it as the flame’s responsibility to warn the moths encircling it what they can expect.

Most flames – whether male or female – are not aware enough or experienced enough yet to know to do this, or to know how... or they are too fearful of scaring off potential partners to know how. And in some cases, they may know, but not care.

If you are inexperienced, you may fear a warning like this means you’ll be relegating yourself to a life of celibacy... after all, what moth would continue to circle the flame, knowing she might be burned?

The answer is knowing that she might be burned only makes her want to circle the flame MORE... playing a sort of dangerous game, perhaps, or challenging herself to be the one moth to bask in the flame’s light and warmth without setting her wings alight.

moth to the flame

Warning her that she may be burned with you will not usually prevent her from getting burned:

  • She will still sleep with you hoping for a relationship, and feel hurt, spurned, and rejected when she’s unable to get one

  • She will still hang on in a friends with benefits relationship, hoping to convert it to something more serious, and will still feel judged unworthy when she can’t

  • She will still enter into a relationship with you, hoping it will last forever, and will feel angry, bitter, and betrayed when you break up with her... or she discovers your dalliances with other women and decides to break up with you

So what’s the good of warning her, then?

The good it does is that sets her expectations properly so that the ending of things does not come as a surprise.

The worst shock, hurt, and surprise comes when we expect things to go one way... only to find out that they are not as we expected at all. That is when our mental models fail us; when our worlds come crashing down; when the weight of our cognitive dissonances upon us are crushing.

But when she already had it in mind – when she knew going in that she was playing a dangerous game – the hurt is not quite as bad, and the embittering is not nearly as severe. She’s much quicker to pick herself up, dust herself off, and say, “Okay – I knew this was coming anyway. So not really a surprise.”

Even better, she’s able to pursue future relationships more honestly with herself – to say, “I’m going to date this next sexy, alluring man... though I know how it will probably end,” or to say, “What I really want is something stable – and as sexy and alluring as that man over there is, I’ve learned that stability is the very opposite of excitement, so let me set aside looking for someone I feel passion for and take up the search for someone I feel comfort with.”

When you don’t verbalize this in advance, a woman can be left confused and adrift as to why the relationship did not work out. But when she was forewarned, and it played out just as you said it would, she is able to look back and say, “What he told me was true.”

Can You Be Neither Flame Nor Moth?

Of course, no.

And if you are thinking, “I am neither the flame nor the moth!” then I assure you... you are the moth.

Not that that is a bad thing – it’s simply another way of life.

However, if you want the power to control your own outcomes, you must be the flame.

And there is the damning decision – if you will be the moth:

  • You are free from the responsibility for how things turn out; yet
  • You are also devoid of the ability to control your own outcomes

Meanwhile, if you will be the flame:

  • You gain the ability to control your own outcomes, to large extent
  • Yet, you also assume the responsibility for what happens to those around you

In his memoir Story of My Life, Giacomo Casanova states that:

As to the deceit perpetrated upon women, let it pass, for, when love’s in the way, men and women as a general rule dupe each other.

And this, of course, is true.

Which is why you must either be the moth, or the flame; but cannot be neither, if you will be at all involved with women.

Either you will be the flame, or she will.

If you – and if you’re reading this site, then probably it will be you... if not now, then in the future at least – I advise you to be as responsible a flame as you can be.

You cannot be a flame that does not burn; this is the tragedy of the seducer, and it’s the tragedy of the woman (flame) dealing with the ordinary man (moth), as well.

So, there is no right answer – you can absolve yourself of responsibility by becoming the moth, but then you will be buffeted about by life, hurt, damaged, and embittered, with little chance of happiness; or, you can seize control of life by becoming the flame, and experience the outcomes you want to experience, but with the heavy heart of knowing that no matter how careful you are, you will always leave behind you a trail of broken hearts, for there are always far more women who want to be with the man who has worked hard to make himself exceptional than there are men who have worked hard to make themselves exceptional to go around for those women.

I, of course, would suggest you be the flame, and simply do the best you can do to be a responsible flame that is, as much as possible, a light of warmth and radiance and brilliance that shies away from burning.

And when a moth is burned, the best you can do at that point is to try to warn the other moths who flock to you next time to be more careful... but of course, they never listen.

Chase Amante

Chase AmanteAbout the Author: Chase Amante

Chase woke up one day in 2004 tired of being alone. So, he set to work and read every book he could find, studied every teacher he could meet, and talked to every girl he could talk to to figure out dating. After four years, scads of lays, and many great girlfriends (plus plenty of failures along the way), he launched this website. He will teach you everything he knows about girls in one single program in his Mastery Package.


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GoodTimer's picture

Hey Chase,

While self-improving I have encountered true rocket fuel of my progress - moderate madness which leads to being not tolerant to non-senses. I say moderate because I don't start thinking that world is cruel or want to hit someone, I just start being not tolerant to lovey-dovey sweet stuff.
It feels OK, cause it seems I get a clear mind there and my thoughts are no longer influenced by most sweet advices that never work, but I need calibration usually cause I feel I can go too far.
What really gets me nervous is that this state lasts not so long and I naturally come back to being nice guy really fast. I get really sharp mind when I meet new girl and boost of energy so I get moderately mad at stuff I don't like by default then, but after some days or hours I just come back to 'normal' mode which I don't like, because there I feel vulnerable again and my sharp witty mind is gone again too. And what is more that moderate madness state quickly gets me exhausted, mostly I think because it's not the way I have built myself while living and I was too much surrounded many sweet woman all around (family, friends, acquintances) and interacting with them really too much while considering them as 'somehow some day I will get you' romantic and ineffective mindset.
I would like to get your insights on this and maybe some help how to keep myself with that helpful state and sharp mind without always getting new and new girls and not to feel extremely exhausted about it.
I suppose it should be trained like a good posture, which needs effort to keep it at the beginning and then becomes second nature once you did it enough, as with many things I have taught myself, that were tough during first days or weeks.

Any thoughts would be appreciated ;)


David Riley's picture

Hey GoodTimer,

Take a look at this article here:
Brain Hacks for Stress and Anxiety

Side note:
A good number of guys grow less tolerant of mainstream dating advice and romance once they realize how much it doesn't work. I dislike because it leads so many guys astray and wastes their time and money. As far as the mindset you're going back and forth with, it will fade overtime. Once you develop new habits and new ways of thinking, your old habits die hard. When we're placed in a unfamiliar situation is normal that we return to our previous way of thinking. Again once you acquire more experience in seduction, you'll notice your old habits have faded.

Take care,

Just Dave

horsewithnoname's picture

Hey chase just wanted to complement your writings. Its been a real eye opener. You understand relationship dynamics very well and have enriched my understanding of underlying principles. Would you have any books that you have learnt a lot from and am willing to share?

Re your life purpose article on the need to meet your biological and emotional needs before attempting to meet your logical wants. That has really had a deep impact to the effectiveness of my day to day. Thank you very much

Kevin (aka sneaky_charm)'s picture

Hi horsewithnoname!

Although you directed your question to Chase, I think this will help you a bit. Check out this article by Chase, written in September, 2012:

The link has a number of books that Chase recommends! Hope it helps!

- Kevin

ericj5592's picture

Great article Chase. Is there a way around this though? If I make myself into a sexual man would girls be ok with only having sex and not pursuing a relationship? Maybe they'll enjoy the experience and accept things as they are or is this too idealistic? Thanks

David Riley's picture

Hey Eric,

As long as you make clear to the woman your intentions are only to sleep with her and not pursue a long term relationship, it will work out just fine. Women enjoy sex as much if not more than men. You would be surprised how many women are actually into one night stands. With the proper phrasing and framing off an interaction a girl will go for a night stand.

Take care,

Just Dave

Franco's picture


Just to be clear here, one-night stands can relatively easily be framed into something that is casual, and women are generally okay with it.

However, the second you decide you want to see her again, it immediately changes the frame from "this was a fun night for both of us" to "maybe this can go somewhere because I like this girl for more than just a night of fun." Once you set that frame, you immediately begin to get the girl more emotionally involved, and you risk hurting her.

Basically, any night beyond the first night that you two spend together linearly increases both the expectations and the amount of emotional stress you can cause a girl if she's really into you, and you cut things off.

- Franco

ericj5592's picture

You answered my question at the end of the article thanks

Gabe's picture

Dear Chase,
Very interesting aritcle! However, I noticed that you leave the possibility of entering a monogamous relationship with a women completely out of the question. Wouldn't that technically be the answer? In that situation, the "moth" is drawn to your flame but instead of getting burned and leaving forever, a relationship ensues. Burning would inevitably be involved but people work though it anyways and proceed with a happy relationship. That just seems like a logical solution to this whole burning moth after moth cycle.

Franco's picture


Chase is referring to the "top shelf" men like himself. These are the men that are capable of bringing in hoards of the most beautiful and amazing women out there on a relatively regular basis.

So, considering that information, is entering a monogamous relationship really an answer for him? Or is it just an answer for her? The man will eventually be unhappy with his inability to meet, bed, and enjoy new women, and he ends up becoming a burned-out candlestick rather than a flame that doesn't burn.

However, for the moderately successful guy who somehow manages to land one "bombshell" of a girl that he does not think he'd be able to land again, then settling into a monogamous relationship would possibly be the answer for the both of them. BUT, as Chase mentioned in this article, these moderately successful guys often end up becoming too needy and/or clingy, which turns themselves into the moth while the girl steadily becomes the flame -- and then looks for a NEW flame so that she can be the eager, thrill-seeking moth again.

The dynamic here really leaves you with no "all-encompassing" answer. So, in this case, I agree with Chase that it is better to be the flame that leaves less of a scar than it is to be the moth that inevitably gets burned.

- Franco

Chase Amante's picture


In addition to Franco's comment, I'd add that there's still a moth-and-flame dynamic at the commencement of a monogamous relationship, too. It's almost never an equal, emotionless affair - there's nearly always one partner pursuing more or significantly more nervous and expectant about the commencement of the relationship than the other. This partner is the moth. The other is the flame.

It's very possible to have a monogamous marriage that never ends - we have a 50% divorce rate in the West right now, but that's really a cup-is-half-empty-cup-is-half-full scenario... the other 50% of unions never end. So these won't experience any "burning" in the traditional sense of someone's expectations being completely shattered.

They will still tend to have some inside the relationship, however - the individual in the moth role will quietly put up with behavior from the flame s/he wished s/he didn't have to, but knows is part of the deal (an extreme example is cheating, but not necessarily - it could be all kinds of things, like the other partner just not putting as much time in as desired by the first partner). Even if it never ends, just because of the way relationship dynamics work, one partner inevitably compromises ("burns") more (often a lot more) than the other.

In this case, the burning is the infatuated, in-love moth going into the relationship expecting an idyllic, dream-like relationship, only to find that it isn't nearly as perfect as s/he has hoped, but s/he sucks it up and slogs on anyway because s/he's determined this is better than the alternative.

There may be perfectly balanced relationships out there where the partners are almost totally equal, but I've never seen it; sometimes you'll see some that appear to be on the surface, but once you peel back the superficial and get a close look under the hood, you start seeing who's really in command and who does most of the bending to make sure the relationship works. Someone always gets burned a little bit, even if they stay together forever. Sometimes it's the man who's going in with idyllic dreams, only to find those dreams singed at the edges; sometimes it's the woman. Really depends on their personalities, and it can even depend on their own value differences between them - with one girl you're the flame whom you're never able to get as excited about as she perpetually hopes you will be, while with a prettier, more dynamic girl perhaps you're the moth, continually trying to find ways to get her as committed to the relationship as you know you are yourself. And much of the time over the long-term these will level out and the parties will adapt to whatever their positions are and get used to it. I'd say usually, most of the burning that occurs occurs at the outset, with perhaps some intermittently throughout when the flame doesn't behave as the moth wishes s/he would.


nocturnal's picture

How do you choose the right sexy/confident man to emulate? Some of the men I've been trying to copy make me feel really disingenuous. Is it even possible to adopt a whole new personality? Do you have any cool famous men that would be good to emulate? Thanks.

David Riley's picture

Hey Nocturnal,

Check out this article that covers your questions.

3 Flavors of Sexy

Let me know if this helps.

Take care,

Just Dave

Anonymous's picture

Chase, in " what is great about inexperienced women ", you
stated that the latter are more into sex and offer less resistance.
How about this whole "sexual awaking " thing?
If I am looking for a long term relationship with an
inexperienced girl , she might just think sex is great and it is like that with all
other men. And also, do inexperienced women get curious to the point
of cheating or they are more loyal once they are into a relationship ?

Franco's picture


You'll find the answers to your question in this article here:

3 Steps to Help Her Orgasm From Sex

Specifically, read the section titled "Should You Be Worried About An Awakening?"



J's picture

...Chase this a great article, but you left out a very important question that I have ( and im sure many other guys have).... What am I supposed to do if girls never flock or come to me in the first place (even though I feel I've built myself up into a bright Flame ?)

The past couple years I've worked hard to build up myself and my sex appeal (my flame), I know im a great catch.... and yet girls still don't seem to care or notice since they never come or flock to me like the article suggests they would.

Thanks for any advice or insight with this.

Franco's picture


The short answer to this question is: you still have to be the one to approach and lead the interaction.

Women will flock around you once they notice not only your fundamental good looks, but your confidence and ability to move things forward sexually as well. Until you've communicated to a woman that you're a sexual man (the flame), then there is nothing for them to recognize as the flame and flock around.

- Franco

David Riley's picture

Hello J,

To build off Franco and to elaborate more, once you've slept with a good number of women and have a good amount of success, women will feel it. What she is feeling is your sexy vibe Women know when a guy is for real or not. Even if a man can "fake" it women will still test a man. Women are accustomed to believing a man's actions over his words. This is why Franco's emphasize on fundamentals are important. You have to learn to emulate what women actually want. This will bring you success.

As far as confidence goes this comes with the boldness of making moves. Women know men want to sleep with them, but they'll only sleep with men who can make that happen. In order to make that happen you have to be able to lead them. This includes the whole interaction. She'll be waiting for you to make a move. The more experience you acquire from previous interactions the easier that becomes. Then she'll begin to see you as a man of value because you pass every test she throws at you. The journey of becoming a better seducer is a daily one. Everyday you choosing a new path down the road of becoming a better seducer. The path leads to interactions with women and to more experience with women. Women value men with experience. Good discussion guys!

Take care,

Just Dave

J's picture

Ok thanks Dave and Franco for the insights, I appreciate it

Anonymous's picture

My question is if you had a son or a daughter, what would you advise them to do if he/she was the moth? Also, how can you explain marriage in terms of the moth and the flame??? I know that people get married for many reasons. I would think that let's say one moth is after one flame and the other is after another. Wouldn't it be much more reasonable for the two moths to come together and aim for someone of their own? Because they have had the same experience with the flame, they must understand each other. So ultimately my question is how does marriage fit into this symbolic scenario of the moth and the flame?

Chase Amante's picture


See this response to a similar comment above on monogamy.

If I had a child who was functioning as a moth, I'd focus on making sure she had her backup plans in order as much as possible, and was functioning from as realistic/pragmatic a worldview as possible. The burning that occurs occurs because of idealistic worldviews that are damaged when the moth is forced to face reality. If you can give her firmer footing on Planet Earth up front, she's a lot less susceptible to being burned (and a lot more likely to become the flame, actually).

As for two moths coming together... perhaps it would be. But even in that case, no two people are of exactly equal value, and one of them always ends up being the flame, and the other the moth. It might start with something small - one partner puts in slightly more effort than the other. But the little things add up - the partner putting in less effort realizes he can kick back a bit and not invest as much and things still go along nice and smoothly, while the partner putting in more gradually finds herself putting in more and more effort or the things she wants to have happen don't get done. Mindsets actually shift as investment levels shift, and the flame becomes less interested in the relationship the less invested he gets, while the moth becomes more so the more she does.

The easiest way to think of it is that there's a perceived mate value scale, and it goes from 1 to 7.13 billion (or whatever the world population is at the moment). And you and her will usually be somewhere right around each other in where you perceive one another's value to be on the scale, but you're never going to have each other pegged at exactly the same number. It's never going to be the case that you've calculated she is 6,319,267,001 and so are you and she has calculated that you are both also exactly tied at 6,319,267,001. One of you will subconsciously (not consciously) view himself as slightly more desirable than the other, and the other as slightly less desirable, and the other partner will hold similar views (if the views are in conflict - e.g., you think you're the higher value partner, while she thinks she's the higher value partner - you'll fight and have drama until one of you submits and begins yielding more and putting in more work to please the victorious partner).

The good(?) news is that long-term monogamy works best with partners who see themselves as pretty close in value, which, if we're still using the moth-flame analogy (which we kind of have to stretch a little bit to fit into this scenario), means something like a smaller, cooler, not-as-wild flame, and a moth that's a little savvier about not flying straight into the flame and bursting alight. When you get monogamy where there's a big gap in partner value, that's when you get the moth dive-bombing into a raging conflagration and erupting into a searing fireball - those are the ones that don't last long, and end in all kinds of drama anyway when they do.


Anonymous's picture

Like a moth to the flame. I see where you got that from. What up " Fifty Shades of Grey" reference!!!!!!!!

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