Why Her Past Matters If You Want Something Serious


Back in late 2006 and early 2007, I was on an invitation-only social networking site called Late Night Shots. It was a site that allowed those on the Washington, D.C. social scene to “see and be seen” by others – set up profiles, find out where everyone was gathering at, and the like. Sort of a private Facebook for the D.C. socialite crowd.

One of the more interesting features of LNS then was an anonymous message board where people could ask all sorts of dicey questions and give all manner of unbiased, unfiltered replies, since their answers were in no way tied to their profiles or real world identities.

I wasn’t terribly interested in the gossip section of those boards (”Who’s dating whom in the scene?” “What new girl has rocketed to the top of the scene the fastest?”), although it did make for good occasional reading on how different people evaluated social status competitors in the scene (and worked to build up their and others’ reputations, or tear others down through rumors). What interested me more were the various relationship topics that got posed and debated to death.

One of the most frequent of these was the question of “Do women’s pasts matter?”

woman's past

While nearly all of the female commenters seemed to argue quite vehemently that they didn’t matter one bit, the male commenters were divided right down the middle in their positions: half that they did, half that they didn’t.

Among the half arguing that they didn’t, there was a further divide: the men who didn’t care about women’s pasts because they had no intention of ever ending up in any form of committed long-term relationship... and the men who didn’t care because they legitimately thought a woman’s past had no bearing on her future.

I’d argue that the past matters even in a fling, hookup, or a casual or open relationship... simply because crazy girls can wreck your life in all kinds of terrible ways even when you’re keeping things arms-length with them, and a one-night stand with the wrong kind of girl can quickly turn down Bad News Lane if she fixates on you or brings other bad stuff into your sphere. But what about commitment? How much a woman’s past matter if you want something serious?


woman's past

If you’re a long-time reader, you’ve seen a number of articles dealing with screening in women who are better relationship candidates, and screening out women who are less-stellar potential partners:

... and of course, the article on how many partners a girl has had, which dove into the research on partner count and fidelity, finding that each additional sexual partner a woman tacks on increases her infidelity risk by an extra 7%.

I’ve also talked repeatedly on here about the value of being the fastest-to-bed, most dominant, and most memorable lover a woman has had, for the purposes of retaining respect in your relationship over the long-term; it’s simply easier to keep this up if you are the most impressive male reference point a woman has when she compares you to all of her other experiences with men.

And, conversely, I’ve discussed why you probably don’t want to go getting too serious with a very inexperienced girl... simply because if you yourself are fairly experienced, and are good in bed, and can help her to orgasm and cause her to undergo a sexual awakening (either on purpose or accidentally), if you’re living in a society that presents numerous sexual options to women (like anywhere in the West), at some point her curiosity is liable to get the better of her... especially when you’re one of her very few or only sexual experiences, and she’s able to look at you and say, “Wow, sex with him is this good... how much better might it be with other men?!”

So, we’ve discussed a variety of ways already that:

  • Her traits and characteristics impact your relationship
  • The impact of the speed and manner in which you took her as your lover
  • How her partner count impacts you and her relationship with you

Even without talking about anything else, it’s blindingly obvious that a woman’s past is without a doubt one of the most IMPORTANT factors to consider before you wade into a long-term commitment with a girl... and the longer the time horizon you’re looking at possibly being with her for, the larger in significance her past looms.

Yet, there is more to the puzzle of a girl’s past even than what we’ve previously covered.


Age at First Sexual Experience

What age a woman had her first sexual experience matters:

This research investigates whether first sexual intercourse during adolescence is associated with increased risk of first marriage dissolution and tests whether the results are consistent with causal or selection explanations. Drawing on a sample of 3,793 ever-married women from the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth, this study estimated event-history models of first-marriage dissolution. Results indicate that wanted sexual debut in later adolescence does not directly increase the risk of marital dissolution but is linked indirectly as a result of subsequent premarital sexual outcomes. Sexual debut that is not completely wanted or that occurs before age 16 is associated with increased risk of marital dissolution. The results suggest that the timing and context of adolescent sexual debut have important implications for marital stability.

That’s from “Adolescent Sexuality and the Risk of Marital Dissolution”, published in the Journal of Marriage and Family. The findings there, teased out, are:

  • When a woman’s first sexual experience comes before 16 – whether because she wanted it, or it was wholly or partly unwanted (anything from full on rape down to a boyfriend pressuring her to sleep with him) – either way, she’s at a higher risk of having her committed relationships not pan out

  • When a woman waited until age 16 or 17 to have sex, there was no direct link between age at first sex and marital dissolution

  • That said, the study found that sex partner counts, as well as becoming pregnant (even if miscarried or aborted), and bearing a child outside of marriage, all contribute to dissolution rates of women’s marriages, and these all tend to be more likely and higher in number the earlier a girl gets her start on sex

Interestingly enough, only 16% of women had sex before age 18 and said it was fully wanted, with 42% stating that their first sex at this age was not fully wanted, and the remaining 42% of women in the study waiting until after age 18 for their first sexual experiences.

 “One possibility is a selection explanation, that the women who had sex as adolescents were predisposed to divorce,” says Anthony Paik, the study author. “The attitudes that made them feel OK about having sex as teens may have also influenced the outcome of their marriage. The other possibility is a causal explanation –- that the early sexual experience led to the development of behaviors or beliefs that promote divorce.”


Sleeping with Friends

Another common tactic among men looking for committed women is to search among their friends. But are women you’re friends with more likely to be loyal to you and only you? And should you screen for women who’ve primarily only dated friends, under the assumption that they’re more likely to have had faithful, monogamous relationships?

woman's past

Not so much, says another study by Paik:

CONTEXT: Concurrent sexual partnerships may facilitate the spread of STDs, but little is known about partnership concurrency and its association with the relationship contexts of sexual involvement.

METHODS: Data about demographic characteristics, sexual histories and the most recent opposite-sex partnership among 783 adults aged 18–59 were drawn from the 1995 Chicago Health and Social Life Survey. Wald chi-square tests assessed gender differences in the timing and type of sexual involvement and in concurrent partnerships; bivariate probit regression analyses examined associations between concurrent partnerships and sexual involvement and other characteristics.

RESULTS: One in 10 of both women and men reported that both they and their partners had had other partners. Men were more likely than women to have been nonmonogamous (17% vs. 5%), and women were more likely than men to report that their partner had been (17% vs. 8%). The probability of having been nonmonogamous was 44% higher among women who were sexually involved with a friend, and 30% higher among those with a casual partner, than among those in a serious relationship; the corresponding figures for their partners were 48% and 32%, respectively. For men, the probability of having been nonmonogamous was elevated by 25% among those who were sexually involved with a friend and by 43% among those with a casual partner; for their partners, the figures were 27% and 24%, respectively.

CONCLUSIONS: Increased awareness that nonromantic sexual involvement is associated with partnership concurrency may enhance individuals’ understanding of the risks and rewards of their relationships.

That’s from “The Contexts of Sexual Involvement And Concurrent Sexual Partnerships”, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health.

More men report being nonmonogamous than women, but since this is self-reported data I’d hazard a guess that there’s a similar bias in these numbers as has been seen in other self-reported data, with underreporting going on by women (and overreporting going on by men).

Regardless what the actual numbers are, the difference between the increase of nonmonogamy seen among women dating friends vs. that seen among men dating friends is rather stark; while men are 25% more likely to be nonmonogamous dating a friend, women are 44% more likely to. Compare that to sleeping with a stranger, and the level of nonmonogamy is higher among men than women; you’re actually more likely that a girl is monogamous to you if she’s a stranger when you begin your sexual relationship with her than you are if she’s a friend.

And if a girl you’re talking to has a history of dating friends, she’s actually got a fairly higher probability of having a history of nonmonogamous relationships than a girl who’s dated men from the periphery of her social circle, or men who are strangers.

So much for the girl next door.


Religious Attendance as Reproductive Strategy

Our last bit of research is one that’s a bit less surprising: is she a religious girl?

The one surprising fact here, though, is that according to the research, religious attendance may be caused by the mating strategy a girl selects, rather than the religious attendance causing the mating strategy:

We argue that a central function of religious attendance in the contemporary United States is to support a high-fertility, monogamous mating strategy. Although religious attendance is correlated with many demographic, personality, moral, and behavioral variables, we propose that sexual and family variables are at the core of many of these relationships. Numerous researchers have assumed that religious socialization causes people to feel moral reactions and engage in behaviors promoted by religious groups. On our view, mating preferences are centrally involved in individual differences in attraction to religious groups. In a sample of 21,131 individuals who participated in the US General Social Survey, sexual behaviors were the relatively strongest predictors of religious attendance, even after controlling for age and gender. Effects of age and gender on religious attendance were weaker and substantially reduced when controlling for sexual and family patterns. A sample of 902 college students provided more detailed information on religious, moral, and sexual variables. Results suggest that (1) moral views about sexual behavior are more strongly linked to religious attendance than other moral issues, and (2) mating strategy is more powerful than standard personality variables in predicting religious attendance. These findings suggest that reproductive strategies are at the heart of variations in religious attendance.

That’s from “Religious attendance as reproductive support”, published in Evolution and Human Behavior in 2008. Because this study finds women’s reproductive strategies as predictive of their religious attendance, it’s suggested that it may be the selection of mating strategy influencing the attendance, rather than the other way around.

For more on religious attendance and partner reliability, see "Religiousness and Infidelity: Attendance, but not Faith and Prayer, Predict Marital Fidelity" in the Journal of Marriage and Family, where it’s shown that attendance of religious services (but not other aspects of religiosity) is predictive of faithfulness.

While it isn’t clear which one causes the other, what is clear is that the two are strongly correlated... thus, if you want to know how monogamous a woman is likely to be, just take a look at her church attendance.

And if you want to know how her sexual mores have changed with time, just ask her how her religious attendance has changed with time, instead. It’s a convenient shortcut that correlates the answer without being a question she’ll feel a single bit of need to fudge the facts about.


woman's past

I, for one, love asking women about their pasts.

Usually I am subtle about this, and non-judgmental. In truth, I don’t judge women by their pasts... anymore. You get to a certain point with women when you’ve spent enough time with them and been with enough of them that it’s pretty hard to pass judgment on a girl just for being a human being and doing human things.

At the same time, I am rather discriminating about what girls qualify for what roles in my life.

If I’m a little obvious in my questioning – or a girl is especially sensitive – sometimes I’ll get a mini-speech about why “the past doesn’t matter”, and this always gives me a big smile. That’s because any woman going on about how the past doesn’t matter has outed herself – she’s shown her hand.

She’s just announced that there are things in her past she would much rather the world didn’t pay attention to, and that she’d prefer to sweep under the rug.

You see, women who think they have “nothing to hide” in their pasts don’t care much about people inspecting those pasts. They know that, contrasted against their female competition, they look good and desirable by comparison.

In theory, a woman with a tidy past could take a principled stand for the sake of all womankind, to protect the rights of her sisters with more colorful pasts to have those pasts and still have equal access to the high caliber men that the women who abstain from such indulgences have access to. In practice, women are not so charitable toward one another, and if a girl has an advantage in gaining a higher caliber mate, she’ll put it to use.

Thus, any time someone tries to steer or direct you away from investigating any particular aspect about themselves, that’s a loud and clear sign that that is exactly where you ought to be focusing your attention.


Skeletons in Her Closet

woman's past

Even if you’re good at spotting a liar, you’re never going to catch 100% of what you’re being told. Fortunately, you don’t have to.

That’s because when you’re getting to know a girl and figuring out whether she qualifies for some sort of serious long-term role in your life, you need to be conducting a rather extensive probe into her background and relationship history.

And while it’s possible for a woman with a few things in her past that make her less desirable for the long-term to cover these up, the more of them there are and the more blatant they are, the harder it becomes to cover them up (which is what she will normally try to do).

Thus, when you’re getting into the details on a woman’s past, what you’re really keeping your eye out for is revisionist history:

  • Are the details thin?
  • Are the details changing?
  • Is she evasive about things you’re asking her about?
  • Is she really having to stop and consider about things you’re asking about?

The change in her life over a period of time is also instructive. For instance, when she tells you she was religiously devout as a teen but grew away from religion in her twenties, that’s very frequently another way of saying she was sexually conservative in her teens but became increasingly sexual liberal as a young adult.

It’s another way of telling you she racked up more partners than she’s probably letting on to you.


How Paranoid Should You Be?

If you haven’t given much thought to this before, an article like this probably comes off as overly paranoid about women’s likelihood to have checkered pasts that will influence their having checkered or disruptive futures. But if you’ve never much delved into women’s pasts before, you usually won’t have a frame of reference for what women’s lives are really like.

Women are forced by society, by their female competition, and by men who are trying to minimize their own risk to revise their histories and leave choice details out. Just like you’d usually “leave off” those details about if you’ve ever done drugs or ever been convicted of a non-traffic offense when filling out a job application, women also typically “leave out” those “irrelevant” details like prior incidents of infidelity, real sex partner counts, and the like.

Typically, then, what you want to look for are peripheral indications of a woman’s risk factors as a long-term mate, rather than any obvious details, which she’ll know to cover up and has an easier time doing so with.

The things you look for are:

  • When did she first have sex
  • Has she ever had sex with friends (and what was the relationship like)
  • How religious is she, and if she is religious, how often does she attend service
  • Has she ever cheated on a romantic partner before

The last one is one that all but the most conniving women, you’ll find, won’t lie about, because it’s too “big” a lie – they’re not able to reconcile lying about it with their self-identities. It’s easier for a woman who’s been unfaithful in the past to just say, “I did, but I learned my lesson and I’d never do it again,” than it is to bald face lie about it and say, “Nope; never done it.”

Of course, whether she says, “Yes, and he absolutely deserved it!” or, “I did, but I was young and immature and I’ve grown tremendously since then,” your response has to be the same: she’s out of the running (unless you’re going for an open relationship).

Usually, a quick skim of the facts is all you need to find out whether you have cause to be paranoid and, hence, need a deeper probe of her background, or whether you’re probably fine not having to worry too much with this girl.

If the first time she had sex was 22, she was too busy focusing on her studies in college to date, party, or spend an ounce of time on boys, her first lover was her tutor in school right before she graduated, and she attends religious service regularly, you’re safe not probing any further, usually.

If, on the other hand, she first had sex at 15, though only because her boyfriend was pressuring her; many of the men she’s been with since then were friends of hers; she’s not remotely religious, or used to be but cast it off; loves parties and dancing and drinking; and yes, she’s cheated before, but she’s grown a lot since then... you’ve got some cause to be concerned.


An Un-Fun Topic

This isn’t a “fun” topic, because it involves finding out information from someone that she doesn’t want you finding out, and dealing with uncertainty, doubt, and distrust. Most women with checkered histories will be actively working to dissuade you from investigating those histories too deeply, and will work to convince you that all that’s behind them and that these tigresses have changed their stripes.

The problem with having to sort through what she’s telling you, what the subtext is, and the difference between the two is taxing for most, because most people, I find, absolutely loathe wading through any degree of uncertainty, and prefer to make snap judgments based on whatever the available information at hand is to get themselves back on firm, certain footing.

That’s things like:

  •  “Okay, she cheated before, but I have a hard time imagining her doing that to me, and she said the guy was a real dick and plus she regrets it and has learned a lot since then, so I think she’s safe.”

  •  “Yeah, she quit going to religious service, but I’m not a religious guy myself either – hey, no one’s really religious in this day and age anyway. I’m not going to take that as any sign of anything and I think she’s fine as a girlfriend.”

  •  “Yes, she was raped when young, but that’s a tragedy, and there’s no reason I should think that’s going to have any kind of a negative impact on our relationship; I’d be a bad person for thinking that way if I did. She deserves my sympathy, not my suspicion.”

  •  “Well, the details about her past may be thin and she’s not being the most forthcoming and says the past doesn’t matter, but I don’t want to pressure her too much – what if she gets upset and doesn’t want to see me anymore? I’m sure everything in her past is fine; she’s such a great girl, I’m sure I won’t have any problems in this relationship.”

In my experience, most men inexperienced at relationships are too ready to gloss over inconsistencies they find in women’s pasts and accept what they’re being told at face value, because they just don’t want to deal with the doubt. Most people are also optimistic about both their own relationship abilities and their partners’ relationship-worthiness entering into new and exciting relationships; there’s a good deal of love-blindness that goes on here, due to in love emotions, scarcity emotions, white knighting, sympathy / empathy, and just plain old inexperience and low emotional tolerance for uncertainty.

Checking out a girl’s past is the “hard pill” part about a new relationship – it’s not fun, but it’s kind of like getting a vaccine; painful when you do it, maybe even a little scary, but it saves you from all kinds of unsightly fates at the hands of dread diseases you otherwise probably could’ve avoided.

woman's past

Like a vaccine, giving potential girlfriends a history one-over is all about probabilities, too; just as you can go entirely unvaccinated and end up never getting any kind of terrible disease the vaccines prevent against, it’s also possible to do zero past-checking on your girlfriends and stumble your way into nothing but happy, faithful, low-drama relationships that improve your life and never tear it down.

However, you improve your odds of having idyllic relationships like this very much by not running away from the discomfort of doing a little probing into her past, but instead by doing it and doing it to real satisfaction (and not immediately saying, “Well, she said the past doesn’t matter – that’s good enough for me!”), and getting it done and out of the way. You will have a far healthier, more trusting relationship if you have it with a girl whose past you have investigated thoroughly and found to your satisfaction predisposes her to committed relationships. Alternately, if you don’t like what you find, you’ve got to be able to relegate her to a less important role in your life, or walk away completely – so you must not fear what your find, or what it will require you to do (all the more reason to screen for a girl’s past early, before you’re emotionally invested).

On how to actually carry out said screening, I laid out some guidelines (and examples) in this article: “Women’s Forgotten Past.”


Probability

Again, bear in mind, we’re talking probability – nothing dead certain here. Getting to know a woman’s past is all about figuring out what the probability is that she’s going to be a good fit for the role you’re looking for her to fill in your life... or that, on the other hand, the probability is that she’ll make everything come crashing down around your ears for you.

You can never know what the future will hold for any given relationship, no matter who the girl is, and unless you’ve had her on 24/7 lockdown since you met her you can never really know for sure every single thing that’s happened since you first started seeing her. The best metric you have for predicting the future, though, is her past.

So, yeah – her past matters. If you’re looking for something serious, it matters a lot – it’s one of the most important things out there.

Just make sure you know what you’re looking for, and go about looking for it in the right way. You’ll be setting yourself up for better relationships... and saving yourself a lot of pain down the road.

Always,
Chase

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

What do I do now?


“Yes, she was raped when young, but that’s a tragedy, and there’s no reason I should think that’s going to have any kind of a negative impact on our relationship; I’d be a bad person for thinking that way if I did. She deserves my sympathy, not my suspicion.”

“Well, the details about her past may be thin and she’s not being the most forthcoming and says the past doesn’t matter, but I don’t want to pressure her too much – what if she gets upset and doesn’t want to see me anymore? I’m sure everything in her past is fine; she’s such a great girl, I’m sure I won’t have any problems in this relationship.”

In my experience, most men inexperienced at relationships are too ready to gloss over inconsistencies they find in women’s pasts and accept what they’re being told at face value, because they just don’t want to deal with the doubt. Most people are also optimistic about both their own relationship abilities and their partners’ relationship-worthiness entering into new and exciting relationships; there’s a good deal of love-blindness that goes on here, due to in love emotions, scarcity emotions, white knighting, sympathy / empathy, and just plain old inexperience and low emotional tolerance for uncertainty.

You always seem to have a knack for writing articles that coincide with my life, Chase. This is the exact situation I currently find myself in. The only difference is that (In large part thanks to you) I'm not so naive and did do the digging to uncover her "real" past. The problem is that now I'm not sure if knowing changes anything, and I'm especially not sure what to do. Do I run now that I know the truth, and how do I handle the guilt this thought makes me feel? How do I overcome my emotions for this girl despite my inexperience and perceived scarcity? Any advice would be appreciated.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: What do I do now?

Author

Anon-

Overriding your emotions when you're inexperienced and still living in scarcity is pretty tough. The ultimate choice though is "suck it up and deal with it" or "bend to your emotions." There are advantages and drawbacks to both... "suck it up and deal with it" feels bad now, but you'll be glad you listened to logic later; "bend to your emotions" feels good now, but has a pretty good chance it finds you in dire emotional straits later. It's a "definitely feel bad now, or probably feel worse later" choice, although when you're feeling emotional, you become extremely present-oriented, and the future seems distant/irrelevant, which makes going against your emotions all the more difficult... your rational mind just simply takes a backseat.

So, unless you're a very logical person with strong emotion control, it's probably useless to tell you to override your emotions and do what you think is logically better for you in this instance. Assuming you're sticking it out despite the red flags, the best advice then is, "Prepare your defenses." Just make sure you 1.) don't let yourself become emotionally dependent on someone who's bound to be emotionally unstable herself, 2.) are very careful about limiting the amount of time you give her, the days you see her, and how much control over your life you let her have, and 3.) keep your backup plans handy for what you do if it all goes to hell in a hand basket at the least convenient time for you. If you keep yourself separate enough from her even in the good times and prepare your contingency plans for the bad, that can make all the difference between riding out the storm and taking a beating but being okay, vs. getting slammed by the storm and needing a few months in dry dock to recover after the whipping you take at the hands of a pissed off Mother Nature / girlfriend with a messy past.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

nonreligious


What if the girl is not religious at all? What if shes atheist or agnostic? Let's say she was relgious early on but then left religion all-together later on in her twenties. Would that increase he likelihood of being a bad partner? Im asking because im atheist myself.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: nonreligious

Author

Anon-

The simple answer is "yes." Of course, there are a number of other factors that matter, too.

It's always going to be a mishmash of qualities that determine a girl's overall relationship-worthiness. I've dated nonreligious girls who were wonderful in relationships. In these cases, they came from otherwise conservative backgrounds and had conservative histories with dating/men, so were much more relationship-focused than not.

If you're choosing a girl who stacks up well on the other measures, but who isn't religious, she still has a reasonably good chance of being a good fit for a relationship. However, if she regularly attends religious service, she's got yet another strong bonus in her corner disposing her toward being a better fit for a long-term or committed relationship.

Chase

G's picture

Deep topic


Fantastic way to bridge from small talk into a deep dive. Starts making them think, and quickly creates a "bubble"

P.S. I've noticed that the writing on the site is from a "in control" perspective. That feedback loop has helped me speak and present from a far more powerful place.

Great work as usual, thanks.

steven h's picture

Wow this really hits home


Wow this really hits home with me. The last girl I dated was guilty of almost all these things. She did a good job of pretending to be a good girl but in the end the truth came out. She was also raped in her 20s, well at least that's her side of the story. It seemed like the only thing she ever talked about andhow bad she felt for being drunk.

I'm just wondering though. What kind of impact does rape have on a girl? Does it matter if she was too drunk to really remember/experience it?

Chase Amante's picture

Impact of Rape

Author

Steven-

From the research I've read, women who've been victims of rape report lower sexual satisfaction than women who haven't been raped, despite no fewer orgasms nor engagement in sexual activities than their not-raped counterparts.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that every girl I've heard who talked about being raped was among the least restrained, most sexually open of women I've met. I don't know if this is because:

  • Rape tanks a girl's self-esteem and sends her chasing after a constant stream of new partners to revalidate herself

  • Rape causes a woman to totally devalue sex, which makes it meaningless for her, and trivial to seek out new partners / have multiple partners / cheat on current partners

  • Rape's effect of making sex seem less satisfying compels women to chase down more and more sex in search of that ever-evasive satisfaction

... or, perhaps it has nothing to do whatsoever with the effects crime itself, and is instead a symptom of the specific woman:

  • It could be that the girls who get date raped / raped at parties are already pretty sexually liberal women (i.e., if she's drinking to the point where she blacks out and men take advantage, she's probably already fairly open-minded about sex, as drinking and hooking up tend to go hand-in-hand)

  • Alternately, it could be that the girls who talk about their rapes are attention seekers, and attention seekers tend to chase down sex as well; the rape victims who aren't sexually liberal also don't talk about their rapes, because they aren't crying out for attention in chasing down sex and talking up their victimizations

I'm not sure which of these (or something else entirely) it is, but all I know is that all of the girls I've known who were rape victims were some of the least-stable women I've known relationship-wise, period. They just seem to be significantly more likely to have lots of sex with lots of people and not see the need to remain committed to one partner for so long. Based on my own experience, I'd say it's a horrible crime, and it's one that messes with a woman's sense of self and attitudes toward sex, and unfortunately very often seems to make her far less desirable as a relationship partner.

Chase

jj123's picture

Question and Comment


Some girls on facebook who are very active in the church and have even been married and divorced, routinely post pins-ups like: "don't be afraid that a good guy won't love you because of your past. If he defines you by your past, then he isn't that good of a guy." Often these pin-ups are written by religious "chastity speakers."

Since churches teach forgiveness, and tend to be more welcoming to women (many of them, at least stylistically) these days, then why wouldn't women with past impurities partake in religious services? It seems like many who do go for "healing."

Chase Amante's picture

Re-Virgins

Author

JJ-

Yes, personally, I wouldn't take the women who are "re-virgins" or who have rediscovered the church after time away from it all that seriously. Anyone who's flip-flopping on major lifestyle choices ("I go to church! I don't go to church. I go to church!") tends to be unstable in the other parts of his/her life too, and instability is essentially the opposite of what you want in a partner for a serious relationship.

When you're talking to a woman about her church attendance, find out whether she's always gone to church, and you'll know pretty quickly if she's taken "time away" to go discover herself, or anything of the sort. If she has, you can still sleep with her, or date her casually... but you may want to be more careful about taking her on in any kind of more serious role. Particularly with older single women in the church, there are those who return to it once they start feeling the need to find a more committed relationship; they're church-goers (and pursuers of serious relationships, most likely) "of convenience", rather than conviction.

Chase

Randy__Bobandy's picture

Not sure about a girl I met


Chase, I'm really hoping this makes it to you

I met a girl the other night, ended up getting some LMR after trying to progress past 2nd base, which is fine (I'm still a beginner), and we set up another time to meet up again.

Since then, I heard from her friends (who didn't know I had hooked up with her) that she had cheated on her only boyfriend which she was with for 5 years. We are both in college right now. And a 5 year relationship meant that she had met her ex-bf in high school. My guess is that they couldn't sustain a long distance relationship and she ended up cheating.

After the LMR, we hung out on my bed talking. I could tell she thought that I was upset that she wouldn't go any further on the first night. I told her that I'm not the judgmental type and that I understand her preference. Then she layed back down on the bed, stared straight up at the ceiling, and said very peacefully but with a hint of sadness "Thank you for not judging me."

So naturally I'm stuck here. I'm usually good at detecting bullshit, but she seemed very sincere in her statement about me not judging her, and she seemed to have sincere feelings for me, but the cheating part raises a HUGE red flag. Also, due to where we both are in our college careers, if we were to form a relationship, it could only last anywhere from 3 to 5 months. So if she is a ticking time bomb, I can get in, have some fun, and be out.

-RB

Chase Amante's picture

Assessing Her Candidacy

Author

RB-

Yeah, I wouldn't plan anything too far in advance there. And, you've yet to sleep with her, so no need to go too far in putting together long-term plans. Just focus on seeing if you can close things out, and take it from there.

Girls you know who've cheated before I'd recommend you give a black mark to for anything serious, simply because the first time is the hardest... and it gets a lot easier after that. Most guys think, "It'll be different with me though; I'm not like that other guy / she likes me so much more than that other guy," without realizing that people play out the same patterns with those they date again and again.

So - if you can take her as a lover, you can certainly have some fun with her for a few months and enjoy being with her. Just don't get too serious.

And, as for sounding sincere - many people who do harmful things to others view themselves as the victim regardless, and will be very sincere in their gratitude that you don't judge them for doing things they view themselves as only doing because they were "forced to do it." Many others are simply just good at sounding sincere when they want you to believe a certain thing, even if they don't fully believe it themselves.

Chase

Randy Bobandy's picture

Clarification


Hey Chase,

Thanks for the reply. It's great to speak to the legend himself, haha. I am glad to know that our decisions matched. And while I agree wholeheartedly with the reply, but I would just like to clarify something in my original post, and get your opinion on it.

When I encountered the LMR, she's not the type to go all out on the first night, she wanted to know the person, etc. So I told her that when she gets back from Philly (auditions for grad school), that "we can try you and me together." She said she'd like that a lot.

So in retrospect, I think I may have screwed myself and/or inspired some false hope in her. I wanted to move forward on her quickly by any means necessary (if we end up lovers, cool, if we end up in an ephemeral relationship, still cool). I wanted to do this for the reasons that you mentioned in your "moving forward quickly" article that attraction is time based and that I would only have 3 months I can spend with her, so I wanted to maximize my sack time with her.

Where I think I inspired the false hope and/or screwed myself is that she was clearly all to comfortable with letting her previous relationship go distance, and I don't want her to get that idea again. However, if she's into the idea of having an intimate relationship, having a relationship with an expiration date might turn her off.

So how can I sell this to her? Or, do I wait till the end to just say, I'm sorry, but time's up?

The M's picture

Selling myself


Hi Chase,

Are there any books or jobs you'd recommend for learning sales skills, especially for selling myself (my skills, why I'm good for so-and-so job, etc.)? And all the related issues like being likable, making friends easily, persistence vs. pushiness, and putting yourself out there? Basically all the salesman-like skills needed to get ahead in a people-oriented career. I know that some of your articles cover some of those things (such as making friends), but I'm hoping for something that describes how to use these skills in a career, without being manipulative or anything like that, of course.

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Sales

Author

M-

Book-wise, check out "Recommended Reading" - I have an entire section there devoted to books on sales.

As for jobs, you'll need one that's pure sales if you really want to learn. I was a tire salesman after high school and throughout college; I had a friend who sold insurance; I've trained and managed sales people selling educational advising packages. Anything like this is good - but it must be something where you are selling, and where if you want to make money, you've got to move units. Best is if you have some face-to-face and some phone; maybe 80/20, with 80% face-to-face and 20% phone - then you'll be upgrading your sales skills across different media, and getting to see what translates and what doesn't from medium to medium.

Sales is great, if somewhat emotionally draining (especially at first). If you can tough it out through the hardest part (the beginning), the lessons you take away from it are pricelessly valuable for the entire rest of your life.

Chase

Frank R.'s picture

About the Future


Chase, this is quite the comprehensive article in terms of a girl's past. You pretty much nailed every major point on dealing with and understanding a girl's past.

However, I have a question for you about the future. How do you get a girl to agree to a prenuptial agreement? A buddy of mine got his wife to sign one by saying his financial adviser and lawyer "made" him sign it, but that sounds too sheepish.

Of course, we don't want to sound too money concerned, and we want to seem optimistic about the future, but being a realist, a prenuptial agreement is a must. But what if the girl doesn't understand why you would want one. How do you convince her and explain yourself without sounding like you think the relationship may end? In my circumstance, I'm in a monogamous relationship, and I make much more than her. She has said passively that she doesn't like the idea, but it wasn't directly in regards to us. It was hypothetical, but I know she mentioned it to let me know how against them she is, since we may end up together in the long run.

I'm very eager to hear your point of view on this.

Thanks for everything you do.

Frank

Chase Amante's picture

Prenuptial Agreements

Author

Frank-

I haven't dealt with this one personally (been married, but nothing really to my name at the time so didn't bother), but how you broach it depends very much on the power balance between the two of you and who the one pushing for marriage is. If you get married the way I talk about here, it's a piece of cake - you just wait for her to push for it, seem to deliberate about it, and tell her, "Okay, we can if you need it - I'm fine with that and I'll support you. Let's draw up a prenup and figure out the details and we'll put it through." If she objects, you just say, "Well, that's my one requirement for marriage - I won't get married without it."

If you're the one pursuing marriage and proposing, it's decidedly harder, since you're now saying, "Hey, will you marry? Also, will you agree not to go after my assets in the event of a divorce?" That's much stickier. If you must go this route, I don't think there's really a smooth way to do it; the best way here is probably just to wait until it's midway through the wedding planning, and just include it with all the legal stuff you need to do: "We need to go to the court house to get the marriage license on this date, and we need to arrange to meet with lawyers to draw up and agree on a prenup on this date." She'll pick a fight here, since the power balance favors her as you were the one chasing marriage, and now you've added other terms on top that are favorable to you and unfavorable to her, but you'll just have to stick to your guns and say, "I understand, I don't like it either, and probably we'll never need it. But marriage law stacked against men the way it is in the West right now, it's the only thing we can do to make sure we're entering into marriage as equal partners, and not as partners where one has temptation hanging over her head to divorce the other one and run off with a big chunk of money the moment she feels unhappy. I don't want that coloring our marriage in a bad way."

Preferably, you wait for her to push for marriage, and then it's simple; you're willing to do it, so long as your sole term is met. If not, and you feel you must be the one who pushes for marriage, then you'll just have to fight it out and make sure you win and don't capitulate.

Another strategy, if you have substantial assets, is moving these over into a trust with you as the beneficiary prior to marriage. Anything you move to a trust before you marry is untouchable - it's added protection from a prenup invalidation, which is something becoming increasingly common (especially if the parties didn't have lawyers on both sides who examined the agreement prior to signing).

Chase

Frank R.'s picture

Great Approaches


Chase, I didn't think about the power struggle surrounding the situation as being so critical. You're right; the approach is heavily dependent on who's chasing marriage. I haven't read that marriage article, but I'll check it out right now.

Good thing is, I'm never one to push for marriage Haha I'll wait for her to do that!

Thanks again!

Wallflower's picture

Great article


Chase,

I agree with everything you are saying in the article. Yes, I think you are right. I think you are probably 100% right about it.

One thing I am thinking though is how rational it all is. I wonder if it is fun to be so rational about love? I think if I were to do it all over again, I would stop thinking with my head so much and just followed my heart. It would bring me to all the wrong places I am sure, but at the end of it all, I could say I stayed true to myself. I guess I am just uneasy about the whole idea of marriage, etc. I suppose if you want to tie someone down they better be low-sex-drive-low-partner-count-librarians of sorts. And I don't think there is anything wrong with these types of women, by the way. But, is it right to choose someone purely with your head? I guess it minimises the risks of the relationship ending, but it also decreases the fun, because you know you picked someone with your head not your heart. Does this make any sense? Am I the only one who is so "anti-rational?" Could you walk away from a girl who makes your head spin, but who has something from the "bad things from her past" list you mentioned in the article? I guess you could, you seem very rational and striving for control, but is it a good idea? Wouldn't you be curious to know that well, maybe there is a small chance something still could work out and take that chance? I am just curious and very non-judgemental :))

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
wallflower

Chase Amante's picture

Head vs. Heart?

Author

Wallflower-

I think it's best having a fusion of the two. I, for one, have never had a relationship that didn't start with me feeling the "love at first sight" feeling with the girl in question, which is something I get only a few times a year at most, with a handful of different girls. So at least for me, the pool of candidates I'm picking from for a relationship are solely the ones I immediately have a strong emotional draw toward, and then I apply logical filters to direct my choice from there. e.g., sometimes I'll get love at first sight, and then discover that logically, a girl isn't such a good fit for what I'm looking for. So, I move on. Then later I meet another girl I get love at first sight for, and it turns out she fulfills most or all of what I want in a girlfriend from a logical standpoint too - then we build a relationship.

Most people aren't happy with partners they picked purely with their head. If you want to be satisfied with your choice, you've got to start with heart, and use head to narrow it down from there (and screen out the ones that'd be all wrong for you, even though they flip some nice emotional triggers).

As for me, I've walked away from plenty of girls who made my head spin, but I knew were also going to turn my life upside down :) I think it depends on what else you've got going on in your life, and how confident you are you'll meet more who make your head spin and won't pose a major risk of derailing your life and activities. If you have things you're working on that are more important to you than relationships, and/or you're at a place where you realize that there's an endless supply of amazing candidates waiting to date you that you can reasonably expect to end up with, the need to jump at the first offer you get that seems appealing but has some unpleasant fine print becomes a lot less commanding (though still requires the exercising of some willpower and better judgment).

Chase

Wallflower's picture

Fair enough


Ok, I get then what you are saying. If you meet a couple of girls per year that make your head spin then it's a different story. I only meet someone I really like once every ten years or so, and in that case if I didn't go along for the ride I would have to wait another 10 years to feel this way about someone and take that chance. I think it's a fundamental difference, but it makes sense now. Thanks!! :)

Anonymous's picture

Facial Expressions


Chase,
concerning facial expressions, I've got a problem :
for example, when you wrote about "cute and sexy look" you
mentioned how to do it:( playful smile, eyebrows up or down,
eyes peaking from corner of eyes ect......................)
However, when I try do the cute and sexy look, i follow the instructions
on how to do it but it just looks so weird on my face. what's the problem according to you? when you started using those expressions, did it look
good at the very beginning? Maybe is with my face or the shape of my eyes, I just don't know. I've got this problem with ALL the other expressions. Help please.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Facial Expressions

Author

Anon-

See my reply to you here.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

how your work-life balance situation matters


Chase I read your article on depression and must admit you seem to be higly knowledgeable of how a human mind works. I have this predicament I've been trying to shake off lately, not really successfully I'm afraid. Maybe you can give me your piece of mind on this.

I cornered myself with work-life situation when my work affects my personal life and vice versa. this is how it works. I think I started having a serious problem with time management. I set up my own business 7 years ago and it's quite successful. By successful I mean, I'm not a millionare but I work in the area I got my educations in, something I've always been interested in and I can pride myself on doing well and get a lot of credit and respect for, something meaningful. The money is decent. On the down side, however, this work takes up a lot of my time and closes me up within hermetic environment which means working constantly with the same people and making it impossible to meet and approach new girls.

My constant problem is abundance mentality but with this style of life it's impossible to work it out. I don't have time for day game. My schedule is day in to day out super tight cracking open to weekends only, and not even every weekend, when I'm also active in different fields developing my interests which are also time-consuming. I came up with a solution to be more effective in finding girls and it was - online dating. After this lenghy lead in here's my question: how to do online dating effectively? Chase I read your article on online dating here and I know your opinion but looks like I don't have a choice until I relocate. I've already had relationships or flings with girls I met online, the problem is it takes a lot of time. I decided to approach them according to the rules on this site like moving fast and keeping things to the point. They don't seem to bite it. They somewhat expect you to shoot thousands of emails before setting up a meet. It's really frustrating because it happened on several occasions I wasted a lot of time on a girl who disappointed me once I got to see her in person. I try to text briefly introducing myself and then I move on to get her phone number or get together with her after 3 days. Most of them usually flake at this point. It is also harder and harder to get them talk to you in the first place. I applied your tips (no more than 3 photos, etc.) but it doesn't do the trick. Also, I'm not a big fan of having professional, high quality pics uploaded because the girls in this case want to talk to you basing off how cool the photo is, subconsciously impressed by the photo itself and the clash she might experience on seeing you later in person and you not living up to the quality of the image already sets negative vibes on the set off. I made the mistake of uploading photos from the beach when I was extremely tanned and simply very good looking. In the meeting I'd show up not looking like a hot Italian any more. For that reason, I think it's even better to upload a photo in which you look a tad worse than in reality to have her surprised positively on the date, however, in such a situation it's really hard to get her to meet you and even talk to you in the first place.

The curious thing is, by the way, I usually meet up with girls who are new to the dating scene but I see the same (often beautiful faces) "hanging" there for years.

Anyways, weighing the pros and cons, I still think online dating is much more efficient for me than day game in which I don't get many opportunities due to my work and environment, and for the reason that I'm actually an average looking guy. I know some girls find me attractive but I'm not a sweeping-off-feet kind of guy in which case my day game would be a piece of cake I guess.

As of late, my days became unacceptably chaotic. I usually work in front of a computer where I've got a lot of projects going on and at the same time I can't refrain from scrolling girls' profiles up and down. I simply can't stop it. It's like I'm doing a project and every 10 minutes I must check out my emails, facebook and dating sites just in case something's changed since my last entry. On a logic level I know how pointless it is but it's so tempting just to check things out. At the end of the day I look back what I've done today and become really frustrated I haven't nailed anything specific again but wasted a lot of time on girls who got flaky again.

I get angry, frustrated and can't focus on my business and as funny as it sounds what's going on online seriously started affecting how efficient I am at work. I started losing loads and loads of energy on the games which are seriously bringing down the standards of my daily activties and I don't come up to the efficiency line I used to walk on a couple of years ago.
What would be the best way to kill the distractions with the effective game still on? And also how to shake off failures quickly to be able to face everyday duties with a fresh mind and enthusiasm which the character of my work requires in a great deal?

Thank you for any advice!

Chase Amante's picture

Work-Life Balance

Author

Anon-

Not sure what kind of work you do, but I'd highly, highly recommend picking up a copy of Michael E. Gerber's book The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It. That's all about the problem of a small business basically taking over your life, sucking up all your time, and you being unable to either grow it more (because your plate is completely full) or take any time off (because you ARE the business yourself). It's an invaluable read, particularly when you find yourself in that predicament.

Online dating is mostly all pictures. I understand the principle behind the decision to not want women going for you because of your pictures, but the end result is that you STILL get girls who are going for you based off of your pictures… just, less attractive / less desirable girls, since you yourself look less attractive and less desirable in the pictures you've chosen to upload.

If you're sticking with online dating, I'd advise rethinking the stand on pictures if your goal really is to make it efficient and quit wasting time (you don't have to look like a tanned Italian when you don't look that way now, but professional pictures of you as you currently look go a very, very long way for better returns in the online dating world), and I'd also recommend blocking out a certain time during the day when you do all your online dating - ideally, later in the evening, after all your core work for the day is done - and belting out all your new messages, responses to girls who've responded to you, and any profile-tweaking you need to do in an hour or so. If you keep this constrained to a tight window, and focus on taking action, you'll be cutting out the time you're now spending on pure voyeurism and instead just reaching out to new gals and trying to line up dates. If you still find yourself treating online dating profiles as a kind of Internet porn, you may want to look into software that prevents you from accessing online dating during the day - a friend of mine sells software that does this called "Window Blocker" - might be worth checking out (here).

Chase

cwongucd's picture

Does Tatoo Matters for Fidelity? Also, Hip Tatoo vs Normal ones


Dear Chase,

Very interesting article! Although to me this article is not really a new topic since I am your long-time reader. Yup.... your article on "Why I Quit Dating Girls Who Club, Party, or Drink" basically went over similar concepts. But this article DID provide new info such as "Age at First Sexual Experience" and this is new to me. Thank you!

I just have a quick question on girls with tatoo, is that a red flag for promiscuity as well? I can't ask this question to girls with tatoo u know because I am 100% certain ALL OF THEM will be defensive when someone asked.

Here is my logic, please provide corrections if wrong or more feedback:
I only have ONE female buddy who has a tatoo on her shoulder, she used to go to club (Reformed party gal), and she also attended bars occasionally. I already know she is not a serious relationship material because she is the same gal I told you and Robertnyc last time.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-your-lifestyle-colors-your-percept...
<--- As u can see, she even had stories such as what type of guys were hitting on her at clubs and how she ditch men after tricking them buying her drink LOL.

However, my question this time is: Do girls who have tatoo on their bodies represent some characteristics that we men should be careful? Also, does position of the tatoo matter as well? For example, if there is a girl who has a hip tatoo....then obviously even an inexperience guy like me should be able to recognize that is for her sexual partner to see. It also means SHE IS NOT AN INEXPERIENCE, SWEET, INNOCENT, SOFT girl because a sweet & inexperience girl would NEVER have a hip tatoo.

But what about a normal one (such as a butterfly or a star) on the shoulder? Would soft inexperience women put tatoo on their shoulders, back, feet, or anywhere normal that is typically for tatoo? Also, should we men still be a little more careful on that during screening? Is that something we should screen them out if we have better options? Again, I won't be judgmental toward them when I am screening because that is the precious lesson I learned from you.

Again, thank you!

C. Wong

Chase Amante's picture

Tattoos and Promiscuity

Author

C. Wong-

There's some interesting research on tattoos and promiscuity:

  • This study found that men's perceptions of women with tattoos are that tattooed women are less attractive, more promiscuous, and heavier drinkers than their un-inked peers

  • This one found that tattooed women get approached more often by men, who judge their odds of sleeping with tattooed women to be higher than they are with untattooed women

  • And this one found that tattoos in adolescents were correlated with psychiatric disorders, criminal records, alcohol and drug use, and early sexual activity

I'm unable to find any research on tattoos and promiscuity among adults - it's probably too politically incorrect a topic for most researchers to touch - but the existence of a strong and persistent male stereotype seems to imply that yes, tattoos are correlated with promiscuity / being easier to sleep with.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that the women I meet who have tattoos seem to have lower self-esteem, which generally makes for higher promiscuity. Tattoos are a signalling device, and seem to be one used for signalling outsider status, rebelliousness, uniqueness, and defiance... all things that usually dove tail quite nicely with looser sexual mores.

The little butterflies on shoulders / stomachs are a trend among girls in certain areas and certain circles, but I'll tell you this: I rarely see conservative girls who don't go out and party that have these tattoos. These are almost all on party girls, or at least some-time party girls; so, if you see the little star / butterfly tattooed anywhere on a girl, just take it as her signalling that she's down to party, and assess her relationship candidacy from there.

Chase

Danny's picture

Tatoo Topic is really Interesting....what about girls who smoke?


WHOA......the question which cwongucd asked is REALLY interesting! I look forward in reading Chase's response on that one. I did some basic searching on Google, type "Does tattoo represent promiscuity" and it pop out some stuffs like this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2337789/Study-suggests-ta...

So obviously men think so....but what I am interested to know is THE TRUTH.
Is it true that women who have tatoo are indeed more promiscuous than women who don't. Thus, the only thing I can do at this point is waiting for Chase's response above. Maybe Chase can find some interesting scientific research or proofs to back it up.

Chase, my question is quick. What about girls who smoke? Does that also shows some characteristics on promiscuity?

Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Smoking and Promiscuity

Author

Danny-

Anecdotally, I'd say there's a big yes for that, mainly since girls who smoke tend to pick the habit up from friends at parties, bars, and the like, and parties and bars and the like are very closely related with promiscuity. Smoking, tattoos, drug use, and alcohol use are all big signs of promiscuity pretty much everywhere in the world.

Like tattoos, there doesn't seem to be any research on it - these are dicey topics, and they're also difficult to do a controlled study on to boot.

Chase

V's picture

How to be tough and gangsta(seriously)


I just want to know what do I have to do to be tough? I don't want to be a try hard I really want to know how can I be a tough guy and get ultimate respect. I want people to fear and respect me. I also want to know how can I not fear my consequences and losing? Because I truly can't be tough if I'm fearing about them. How can I stop fearing of consequences and confrontation?

How can I not fear having beef with these people and stay ready and calm

And how do I let people know from my past im no one to fuck with, I haven't seen them in years im just saying for when I do? How should I act around them without being a try hard?

Thank you!!!!!

Chase Amante's picture

V- You only lose fear for

Author

V-

You only lose fear for something once you've tasted it. If you fear consequences and confrontation, then you must immerse yourself in confrontation, and experience the consequences. Until then these things will remain unknown to you, and all men fear that which is unknown to them.

If you want to know how to come across tough, see these articles:

... but for actually being hard, internally, only experiencing the things you fear will truly rid yourself of your fear. Removing desire is the next best thing; that's mostly achieved through meditation, though also can be through sufficient success in other regards that you lose the fear of the less significant damage whatever the things you're worried about might cause you (e.g., you might be worrried about losing your car, but if you make a lot of money and get $100,000 in the bank, that fear will largely vanish even though you've never gone through the process of losing a car and having to deal with that).

Chase

dcl's picture

I Knew It


Chase
When I first started researching about Game or anything like that I do remember reading and watching a lot of material suggesting 'not to give a shit about the girls past'. I did feel that way, but at the same time had a conflicting feeling that was telling me 'if she has any value to me in the long term I should find out what I am getting into'.

Only until recently (few years) have I realized that I should be doing intense screening (sluttiness, beliefs, femininity, empathy etc.) regardless if its a one-night-stand or long-term sexual commitment.

Great read. Cheers.

PS There is an interesting TED talk from France, circa 2012, about factors contributing to the state of the sexual marketplace called, Yann Dall'Aglio: Love -- you're doing it wrong.

Chase Amante's picture

Past or No Past?

Author

Devo-

Yes - it very much depends on what your objectives are and where you're at learning-wise.

One of the problem that new guys have is that they focus on a woman's girlfriend-worthiness to exclusion of all else, and end up missing out on tons of opportunities to sleep with new girls, get more experience with women, and upgrade themselves across the board socially and sexually. So, the best advice for men start out generally is, lower your standards.

The opposite side of this is, men who've studied pickup can become so entrenched in the dogma of "stop screening her for her past, because that doesn't matter for sex" that they forget that it does matter for relationships... and they end up getting into relationships simply because the girl is hot and good in bed, and pay attention to nothing else, only to end up bitter and confused when the relationship ends in turmoil they didn't expect to encounter later on down the road - after all, they're so good at picking up women, how can they possibly not be good at relationships too?

Comes down to screening appropriately for what you're screening for: new guys need to stop screening girls they're only going to hook up with as if they're going to wed them, and experienced guys frequently need to remember to turn their filters back on when it comes to looking for something a little more committed.

And, thanks for the tip on that TED talk - I'll check it out!

Chase

dcl's picture

Thanks Chase, great advice.


Thanks Chase, great advice.

Funman's picture

Cheated because they were neglected?


Hey Chase,

Another insightful article.

1) My question does the past matter in your opinion if the girl did was not a party girl / wild girl etc, however, she said she felt neglected and not appreciated in her relationship/ marriage? If this is how she justifies her cheating?

There are so many housewives who always give this reason on how they became busy in their lives taking care of the house and the children and their husbands did not make them feel special.

Would you consider a serious relationship with a girl in this situation?

Thanks in advance,

Funman

Chase Amante's picture

Neglect

Author

Funman-

Absolutely it matters there.

Actually, I'd sooner trust a girl saying she messed up, but has learned from the mistake and grown, than one saying that she's blameless for her actions and only did what she did because someone made her.

At least the first has some measure of accountability. The second just shifts blame onto others. And you'd better believe that people repeat their patterns again and again - I don't know if you'd call it karma or what, but the guy thinking he's saving a girl from a neglectful relationship always ends up losing her to someone "saving" her from him later on, when she decides that he's now neglectful too (and he ends up standing there mouth agape, every bit as surprised as that previous "neglectful" man).

Chase

jj123's picture

Another Question


Chase, thanks for your reply earlier. The big problem (besides so many modern-day younger women in this part of the world being so promiscuous) is that so many institutions -- including Catholic and Protestant brands of Christian religion -- are with them. Either their promiscuity is not their fault (since we "force" and "pressure" them as men) OR it's simply wrong to hold it against them, both because they're helpless damsels and because they're empowered women. When women cheat, it's something that's done to them (either by the one they cheat with OR their committed partners), even according to many modern ministers and priests. Most guys in those pews are HUGE white knights as well. This is a great deviation from the Bible and religious tradition.

Obviously among American women in their 20s and 30s, this leaves relatively few who are committable. In the likely event that I'm getting to know someone when her past comes up in discussion, and this happens when a committed relationship is being considered, should the guy just be upfront and say that her past (or even present 'girls night out' tendencies) preclude the commitment she's looking for? Wouldn't this be considered judgmental? Or is it best to finesse it with other excuses (about finding someone else, not looking to commit now, etc.)?

Chase Amante's picture

Breaking It to the Girl

Author

JJ-

Nope, I'd never tell a girl outright that you won't date her because of her past. That does absolutely no good for you, and possibly does harm - if she gets offended and starts slandering your name, for instance.

Far better just to let her down easy or fade yourself out, and let her come up with her own conjecture about why it is that cute guy she thought it was going so well with suddenly vanished.

Sometimes it's useful to someone to give them feedback they can use, but much of the time it unfortunately isn't worth the hassle and won't be used. And, in the case of a woman's past, that just isn't something she can go back and change, either. Her only choices there are try to convince you you're wrong, or outright auto-reject - neither are good for you, or on the path to a good relationship for her.

Chase

Funman's picture

3 more situations


Hey Chase,

1) Would you enter into an exclusive relationship with a girl, if she was having sex with other men during your first month of dating her?

2) I know you have mentioned that you have slept with girls who had boyfriends. Would you make a girl your girlfriend, if she cheated on her boyfriend, and you were her lover when she was cheating on him?

3) This question is similar to question #1. Would you consider entering into a monogamous relationship with a girl who currently has a friends with benefits situation with another guy but is willing to leave him to be exclusive with you?

Funman

Chase Amante's picture

Nonmonogamous Women

Author

Funman-

#1's a little dicey, because it's hard to know for sure... when I was younger I might have, but at this point, if I have an inkling that a girl might be seeing someone else at the same time she's seeing me, I cut her. I just don't want a relationship with a track record like that.

#2 definitely not. People, male and female, repeat their patterns again and again. I've had girls I really hit it off with that were cheating on partners with me, and it's always painful to do, but I axe them after we sleep together the first or second time. In that case, you're fighting emotions; emotionally you might be drawn to them, but logically you know you'd only be setting yourself up to end up on the receiving end of it yourself a little later on down the line. People don't change (although they'll always have plenty of excuses for you why "this time it's different").

#3, no. For girlfriends, I only take moderately experienced girls, and not ones who've done run casual relationships. That's just personal preference based on what I'm looking for. I also rule out one-night stands, unless it was an "I thought we were going to have a relationship and then he just didn't see me again" scenario.

Chase

Troy's picture

Ricardus


Chase -

It's been almost 2 years now since Ricardus Domino hasn't written any articles or been on the boards regularly. Under his name on the boards, i see zero posts by him which maybe means he isnt active on the entire girlschase team again. I remember a reply post on a thread you, Chase made on the boards about Ricardus taking the plunge and moving off on his own to start his own business and that you would as his friend support his decision.

Im a fan of Ricardus Domino and even though you have other writers on here, id love to see him come back even to cook up some more great articles.

Or maybe an announcement of what will happen for girlschase 2014 and if Ricardus Domino is coming back or not and how he is doing.
I really appreciated some of what he wrote.

Questions:

1) Why is it that you take on the majority of the article writing on girlschase?

2) Why dont the other writers (10 or so writers) write more articles too?

3) Why is it that i see a new writer on here but after a few months they have less and lesser articles here?

I would imagine that you have the most experience here but what are the requirements for a writer to have to be working with you on girlschase?

4) What is the partner count/experience with women that a writer here needs to be considered elite?

5) What if a man chooses to gain extreme amounts of experience with women outside of sex because he wants that and is talented with women but has a low partner count? Can he still be considered a experienced/elite seducer?

6) What do you consider a high partner count for an experienced seducer like yourself? how much is a high count in 1 year for experienced seducers?

7) Why does a man have to have a high partner count to be seen as experienced if that is the case?

What number of partners you would say is good to aim for as a beginner to become a journeyman?

Troy

Troy's picture

Success Story


Chase-

Success story today:

I can now positively conferm that your amazing article on pre-selection and social proof really does work wonders. Today at school i decided that since i am there the majority of the day, that i talk to some girls there just to help with my anxiety so that when i leave school in the afternoon to go talk to girls on the street, that i would already not be too rusty and have some social momentum going for me already.

So i went to school early and there were no classes today because it was a special day like a school seminar where various speakers would come and talk to us about the career choice we wanted to make and which college we would like to go to. It's called Career Day.

Yea, so i went early and started talking to every girl that crossed my path throughout the morning. I was shocked to realize that later on in the day girls who auto-rejected due to my fault actually approached me and flirted with me like crazy, girls who never noticed me before was saying hi to me and flirting with me, girls who behaved dismissively to me and hated my guts started to stare at me with open body language and one of them even approached me as i talked to even a more attractive girl than herself.

Chase, its a great feeling that i just had to say this success story and something i'll be looking to maximize the use of in the near future (ha! ha! tomorrow at school again).

However, everything wasnt all roses today. I had a lot of problem having conversation with the girls after saying "Hey" and then extreme problems after 2 minutes of small talk.

Today was a great feeling and even though the girls found our conversation quite tame and awkward slightly, they continued to flirt with me.

so i managed to pull off my first pre-selection. im thinking the next thing to do now is work on my fundamentals and leave conversation and deep diving alone. persons arent opening up and reaching the hook point. so do you think if i focus on pre-selection and fundamentals that ill be able to use my lots of question style (or so you put it)?

what i have noticed is that the really loud guys who are really funny get all the attention. what if i leave deep diving alone and focus on developing my sese of humor?

Troy

Chase Amante's picture

Writers, Experience Levels

Author

Troy-

Congrats on your good day! Preselection is strong voodoo, yes. If you're not hooking, I'd probably focus more on fundamentals, but it might be different in high school; if the girls are very socially inexperienced, you may need to do a lot more leading. I can't say for sure, because I don't spend too much time around sub-18-year-old girls! With most girls over 18, I can say that generally speaking, if you get your fundamentals tight enough, girls will stumble over themselves to talk to you; however, younger girls (18 to 22 or 23) will often lack the social skills to carry on a full conversation and can get frustrated and feel embarrassed if they've expressed interest in you but the conversation falters. In that case, you need some social skills to help them save face, and you generally need to guide them more strongly and more overtly.

Ricardus is doing great. He's running a profitable business of his own these days, and has even been able to give me some great pointers on business too. At this point, it doesn't make sense for him financially to come back and write or coach for GC anymore, but he may release his own product line in the "get girls" niche, which, if he did, I'd certainly promote. He's tentatively targeted later this year or early next for something in that area.

I do most of the writing because this is a tough niche to find skilled guys in. I will basically only bring guys on if they're good at sleeping with women, good at teaching it to others, and have a positive / can-do mindset. Guys like that are in short supply, and also tend to be a little free-spirited. Combine that with the fact that this is only a part-time gig at best (you won't earn a full-time salary writing one article a week for a website or magazine), and it can be a bit of a revolving door. There's also a tendency for most guys in PUA to eventually move onto entrepreneurship, and that means at some point most of the writers here will want to stop using their pens to get paid and start building business systems to do that for them instead.

Experience-wise, most of the writers here are between 50 and 100 or so partners, and have their fair share of experiences with relationships too. We have guys from around 20 to 45 writing, but even the younger guys tend to be pretty prolific / sexaholics, so they're younger guys who've accrued a lot of experience in a short amount of time (or they got an early start). I don't think you can really consider someone who hasn't slept with many women an elite seducer; there's a big difference between a man who can entrance women, and a man who can entrance women and actually close out on the enchantment. Many a woman you think is taken with you before making a move you quickly find will not go to bed with you when you try, and many who seemed disinterested despite the best of your abilities before making a move end up in bed with you when you do, to your pleasant surprise.

I'd say get to journeyman level as defined in the getting started ebooks you'd need anywhere from 10 to 25 lays, depending on age. If you're, say, 20 years old and at 10 lays, you're probably doing pretty good for your age and likely have a good mental model. If you're 45 and at 10 lays, you almost certainly have a fair bit more work to do before you're journeyman level.

Chase

Michal's picture

Hi, Chase. I have a question.


Hi, Chase.
I have a question. I feel this might happen soon, because one of my female friends broke up with her boyfriend.
She talked about this with me when he left her a year ago and I listened to her. Thing is, after that, at some point, I kinda stated that I do not want to see her, because I want to be with her and I dont want to be just a friend. She told me, she sees me only as a friend. But she said she has noone like me and some shit I am not sure if I should buy.
Now - if she will contact me, I have 2 scernarios in my mind.
A) I would either say that if she wants to talk about that, she should go to talk to her girlfriends because I have penis.
Or second B) just to lift her spirit because I can do that and from what I have heard he was basically love of her life.

I think option A is quite cruel. But fairly obvious, because I dont really want to be her cry guy. But as a person, I think if I can and know that I would be able to get her back on her feet now, it is my duty to do so. And not doing it just because I want this and she does not, denying my value in this way... well it seems fair but cruel to me.

Thing is, she would completely forgotten about me in a week or month and I know this for sure. Once she "feels better" she would just go and fuck other dudes to feel good about herself. Feel womanly again. And even if she wanted me to take advantage of her weakness I cant do that because my trauma will not allow me that - with her. She broke up with him this sunday which is 16. February... so I expect her to contact me quite soon. And I am not sure what to do, but I am sure it will change the course of things based on what I do. Either she will "value me as a friend" or maybe regret that she was this distant with me, I dont know.

Thank you,
Michal

Chase Amante's picture

Girl on the Rebound

Author

Michal-

This one's simple enough - let her come talk to you, but make it on your terms.

So, if she wants to come sob with you about how horrible her ex was... no problem. Invite her on over. Have a pint of ice cream ready and curl up in the sheets with her.

Then just start escalating as she tells you all about it.

As I understand it, this is how basically every rebound guy each one of my ex-girlfriends rebounded from me onto ended up sleeping with her ;) Although you will probably have to listen to her going on quite a bit about the ex who ripped her heart out... then deal with her being an erratic / emotional mess... and potentially being on-again, off-again with the ex. So long as you go in knowing it's going to be messy emotions flying around and that that's the path of the rebound guy, you'll be okay. Just don't let yourself get too emotionally invested yourself - if you do end up together, remember that she's using you to get strong again, not because she views you as the ideal partner.

Chase

Gem's picture

Lower level guys


Hey chase,

a question about something I've been thinking about/seeing more lately:

What happens to the guys that are so socially awkward/ridiculously inexperienced that they can't even look at a girl (or will struggle to hold eye contact with a girl or say a couple of words).

I have an engineering class now where it's nearly all guys and I'm sort of baffled/astonished at how robotic some of the guys are (but also at how they are in conversation with the one or two engineering girls in class). I can see how it's tough for the guys that get friend zoned or have a crush or a are struggling in a bad relationship but I don't understand how it'd be for these "beyond hopeless" type guys. I feel bad wondering what happens to them; will some of them never meet someone and end up being 40 year old virgins?

My roommates of last year come to mind (the only guys of this type that I've spent time at length with). Each of my roommates last year had never kissed a girl or been with a girl and were all super virgins; I would bring over girls from time to time and they'd struggle to look at each of the girls. I got on well with my roommates just cause I'm decent at getting along in general, but all they'd do is go to class and watch tv and eat junk and play video games and they'd feel just great and seemingly content doing it. I think I told you before, one of my roommates said (when asking him about girls) "oh I think I'll just wait till I'm married to have sex". I feel like there's some hope for nice guys that they may potentially meet a nice girl some ways down the road but with this lower type of guy I don't see how they have any hope.

Maybe you could shed some light for me here

-Gem

Chase Amante's picture

Super Virgins

Author

Gem-

You know, I never quite figured this out, though I've seen lots of strange and interesting things.

I used to work in government, and I was around plenty of computer / account guys in their late 30s and 40s whom you could just TELL were those "super virgin" guys when they were in their 20s. And they'd all be married, and you'd always wonder to yourself where on Earth this guy found a wife, and how did they get together.

As I gather it, most of them met their wives either at work or in grad school or at some kind of social function. lt seems like what happens eventually is that some of them just "get over it" and go approach a girl they get that "love at first sight" feeling with, while others get approached by the girl. Often these are girls who've decided it's time to settle down, and they're done with the bad boys and want someone safe. Other times they're quiet or nerdy girls who've had pretty sheltered lives themselves, and these guys are less scary to them than the loud back-slapping types who go around chatting up all the women in the office too.

At an office I worked at in SoCal, this young, hot girl transferred in, and I decided I was going to sleep with her almost right away. But before I could even set it up, I went out with her and another coworker, this quiet, nerdy guy, only for me to turn around and see them making out. That guy and I had had a heart-to-heart a few months earlier where he talked about how impossible it was to get laid and how life was pointless and he was thinking about just killing himself. And there was, outcompeting me for the new hottie who'd just arrived in town. I was stunned and impressed. Apparently he'd served as her tour guide and had been going around everywhere, and I don't know if he made a move or she did but they ended up sleeping together for a few months somehow. Nerd game. She tried to go exclusive; he told her no (he'd started getting into PUA after I told him about it, and then he watched his Navy S.E.A.L. roommate pull off a cold approach threesome at a bar); she started sleeping with other people, he got jealous, and they broke it off. And then he tried to game my ex-girlfriend's sister, but apparently his game was too subtle and she, pretty inexperienced, didn't know what he was doing and was about to take the initiative herself.

Another couple I knew was a nerdy guy whose fiancée basically approached him at a party and ended up taking the initiative and escalating on him later because he didn't do anything. She was a former sorority girl, and he was a nerdy (but attractive, and strong in his own way) guy with a good job. She just asked him if he was going to kiss her or what, and when he didn't know how to reply, she just kissed him herself. They ended up getting married and going to work in Dubai, where the guy made a few hundred $K a year, before moving back to the States to buy a big house for the two of them and start his own business.

Chase

Wout's picture

Can't see the utility of this post.. Sorry.


Hey there,

I can't really see the utility of this post and about why I should calculate the chance someone could cheat on me.. I mean just making the girl happy while being a good lover and keeping your abundance mentality should do the trick right?

This way you still minimize the chance this girl cheats on you (even though she might cheat faster on you than another girl) and if she still cheats on you.. Why care? Just throw her out of your life and hop to the next girl..

I can't see why someone with complete abundance mentality would need to find out the probability of cheating of this girl because he would just next her and won't feel affected at all (which counts for flings but also for the search of something "serious" in my opinion)

-Wout

Eric Reeves's picture

Re: Can't see the utility of


I recently decided to ignore red flags and let a girl slide into a relationship with me.

What happened?

She turned out to be a manipulative con-artist, who tried to confidence trick me to get my credit card info (possibly stole my car keys), would sleep with rich men / ceos for their money (hundreds of thousands), was a prostitute, dated my best friend behind my back by manipulating us against each other. We found out all this stuff too late, ditched her, then she pulled him back by being manipulative (she's GOOD, a legit borderline/psychopath). We thought she was the sweetest girl, and everyone is shocked. The reality is that we just ignored all the red flags.

I'm sleeping with new women and have always had an abundance mentality. My friend... well not so much.

The point is that letting bad people into your life, even if you think you're invulnerable (which you are NOT, there are ALWAYS people with stronger frames out there), will bog you down and throw your life in the gutter at the worst possible moments.

Wout's picture

Wow


Wow now I see why I should look for some red flags, maybe the best way is to screen her with some really dangerous red flags that can actually hurt me (like stealing, psychopathy, manipulative behavior, ..) but not things you consider invulnerable to (like I consider myself invulnerable to someone cheating on me, as I don't care about it - If she cheated, I accept the fact and next her). But I guess that everyone should find their "limit" on what would be vulnerable and invulnerable to him, knowing that this limit will influence a certain probability of danger on his life, the quality of the girls he'll get and the quantity..

Anyways thanks for the story share, and glad you found out whenit wasn't too late yet :)

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