Dating Narcissistic and Egotistical Women


date a narcissistA commenter on the article about sexy body language asks the following regarding narcissistic and egotistical women:

I was wondering if you could put out any content on how to deal with narcissistic, overly selfish women. They're tougher to deal with on some levels and I'd love to see what kind of content you have for how to deal with that type of woman.

If you're like many people reading this article, your first reaction might be, "Who on Earth wants to date a narcissist?"

You know... selfish, egotistical, conniving. Unempathetic. Cold, in many ways.

But there're two sides to everything, and narcissism is no exception. Narcissists also tend to be incredibly charming, very charismatic, and quite colorful. They're frequently the center of attention... the bright and shiny objects at the middle of the room.

They are the coveted. And they enjoy being coveted.

In fact, there are reasons you may want to date a girl who's a narcissist... just as there are reasons you may not.


date a narcissist

Narcissism is, like anything in language, a label. It's used to attempt to differentiate a subset of personality traits that commonly appear in conjunction with one another.

According to the DSM-5 (which admittedly has come under a great deal of criticism as being pseudo-scientific, unduly influenced by drug companies, and being demoted in authority by the NIMH and the BPS), narcissistic personality disorder includes five or more of the following:

  • Is grandiose in evaluation of self without demonstrating superior achievements

  • Concentrates on fantasies of great success, influence, intelligence, beauty or perfect love

  • Believes in own "specialness" and expects to associate with high prestige people or institutions

  • Demands to be overly admired

  • Feels entitled to special treatment and to have demands acceded to

  • Exploits others to achieve own ends

  • Lacks empathy for others

  • Frequently envious of others or assumes others are envious of him or her

  • Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior

Wikipedia further differentiates between narcissism and other similar personality disorders thus:

  • Antisocial personality disorder: although these personality disorders share qualities of tough-mindedness, glibness, superficiality, exploitiveness and lack of empathy, narcissistic personality disorder does not include antisocial traits such as aggression, deceit and impulsivity, nor do they have, as antisocials do, the history of conduct disorder in childhood or criminal behavior as an adult. Additionally, narcissistic personality disorder is needy specifically for the admiration and envy of others, a trait lacking in antisocial personality disorder.

  • Borderline personality disorder: in contrast to this disorder, the narcissistic personality disorder has a stable self image, and lacks the self-destructiveness, impulsivity and concerns about abandonment.

  • Borderline, antisocial and histrionic personality disorders: although these disorders share qualities of coquettishness, callousness, and neediness, the grandiosity of the narcissistic personality disorder distinguishes it from these others.

So, yeah, obviously a narcissist is something of a spotlight grabber, with some pretty clear downsides to her personality profile.

Who'd want to date someone like this?


The Upside of Narcissism

In the present-day United States, 10% of individuals in their 20s meet the requirements for narcissistic personality disorder. And that number is rising.

That's quite a lot of people with narcissism.

Anecdotally, egotism seems to be rising across all Western countries, and even in non-Western countries as Western media and ways of life infiltrate these societies.

In psychological circles, there's some degree of debate about whether narcissism is an ego-protective defense mechanism centered on shoring up weak "real" self-esteem, or is something else (with some studies reporting narcissists showing high "real" self-esteem, and others reporting narcissists showing low "real" self-esteem; the paper "Narcissism and the non-equivalence of self-esteem measures: A matter of dominance?" postulates that this is due to a difference in the relation to dominance of the self-esteem measures being assessed in these studies).

There's plenty of research on the role of narcissism in dating, mating, leading, and life; apparently, narcissists make for interesting research fodder.

The study "Narcissism and attractiveness" found a (small but reliable) correlation between being narcissistic and being attractive, and "The dark triad of personality: narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy" found a (small but reliable) correlation between being narcissistic and being intelligent. However, in "Narcissistic illusions in self-evaluations of intelligence and attractiveness" narcissists were also shown to perceive themselves as more attractive and more intelligent than they actually were (with male narcissists more guilty of this than female narcissists).

date a narcissist

"Narcissism and emergent leadership in military cadets" had the following interesting findings about narcissism and leadership:

Some 200 military cadets rated themselves and other members of their platoons on a variety of variables, including the quality of their leadership behaviors. They also completed standardized personality questionnaires measuring the positive and negative aspects of narcissism. Strong predictions were found for variables related to the two sides of that construct. The best rated leaders exemplified the bright side of narcissism while suppressing the dark side-emergent leaders were measured to be high in egotism and self-esteem but low in manipulativeness and impression management. Big Five personality factors were only marginally successful in predicting emergent leadership in this study. The data are discussed in terms of their relevance to identifying potentially destructive leaders in a group.

So, narcissism was a big leadership predictor, with the best leaders being those who accentuated the positive sides of narcissism (egotism, self-esteem) while suppressing the dark sides of it (manipulation, impression management).

On the other hand, regarding creativity, in "Are two narcissists better than one? The link between narcissism, perceived creativity, and creative performance," researchers had this to say about findings:

The current research examines the link between narcissism and creativity at the individual, relational, and group levels of analysis. It finds that narcissists are not necessarily more creative than others, but they think they are, and they are adept at persuading others to agree with them. In the first study, narcissism was positively associated with self-rated creativity, despite the fact that blind coders saw no difference between the creative products offered by those low and high on narcissism. In a second study, more narcissistic individuals asked to pitch creative ideas to a target person were judged by the targets as being more creative than were less narcissistic individuals, in part because narcissists were more enthusiastic. Finally, a study of group creativity finds evidence of a curvilinear effect: Having more narcissists is better for generating creative outcomes (but having too many provides diminishing returns).

Amusingly, narcissists aren't any more creative than anyone else... but they believe they are, and so do other people. The flip side of this seems to be that having narcissists in a group makes the group more creative (perhaps via greater levels of confidence in its ability to be creative?).


The Downside of Narcissism

It's not all flowers and rainbows, however.

According to"Narcissism and social networking web sites," narcissists are a lot more likely to self-promote on social networking sites, and plow a lot of time and effort into maintaining impressive-looking profiles there (which is arguably a useless waste of time, all things being equal).

According to "Narcissism in the perception of transgressions," a narcissist is a heck of a lot more likely to play the victim card and break out some victim mentality when the occasion calls for it.

And if you're looking for a committed partner, you may find a narcissist rather a disappointment:

Two studies examined narcissism and commitment in ongoing romantic relationships. In Study 1, narcissism was found to be negatively related to commitment. Mediational analyses further revealed that this was primarily a result of narcissists’ perception of alternatives to their current relationship. Study 2 replicated these findings with an additional measure of alternatives. Again, narcissists reported less commitment to their ongoing romantic relationship. This link was mediated by both perception of alternatives and attention to alternative dating partners. The utility of an interdependence approach to understanding the role of personality in romantic relationships is discussed.

That's from "Narcissism and commitment in romantic relationships: An investment model analysis," a 2002 paper in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

In "Susceptibility to infidelity in the first year of marriage," narcissism is one of the three (3) most strongly correlated factors with infidelity early into a marriage (the other two are low conscientiousness - someone who doesn't care - and high psychoticism - someone who's crazy). In "Priming the primal scene: Betrayal trauma, narcissism, and attitudes toward sexual infidelity," narcissism is again positively correlated with "the likelihood of having affairs, the number of partners cheated on, and (for women but not men) the likelihood of being cheated on."

And in "Threatened egotism, narcissism, self-esteem, and direct and displaced aggression: Does self-love or self-hate lead to violence?" researchers revealed the following findings:

It has been widely asserted that low self-esteem causes violence, but laboratory evidence is lacking, and some contrary observations have characterized aggressors as having favorable self-opinions. In 2 studies, both simple self-esteem and narcissism were measured, and then individual participants were given an opportunity to aggress against someone who had insulted them or praised them or against an innocent third person. Self-esteem proved irrelevant to aggression. The combination of narcissism and insult led to exceptionally high levels of aggression toward the source of the insult. Neither form of self-regard affected displaced aggression, which was low in general. These findings contradict the popular view that low self-esteem causes aggression and point instead toward threatened egotism as an important cause.

So, while a narcissist might normally be quite calm emotionally, the instant she feels insulted, she begins to exhibit "exceptionally high levels" of anger and retribution - the classic phenomenon of "narcissistic rage," a violent reaction to "a perceived threat to a narcissist's self-esteem or self-worth."

In addition, if you're looking for emotional intimacy, you'll find disappointment in the findings in "Narcissism and romantic attraction," published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. The researchers from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill who authored the study revealed the following results:

A model of narcissism and romantic attraction predicts that narcissists will be attracted to admiring individuals and highly positive individuals and relatively less attracted to individuals who offer the potential for emotional intimacy. Five studies supported this model. Narcissists, compared with nonnarcissists, preferred more self-oriented (i.e., highly positive) and less other-oriented (i.e., caring) qualities in an ideal romantic partner (Study 1). Narcissists were also relatively more attracted to admiring and highly positive hypothetical targets and less attracted to caring targets (Studies 2 and 3). Indeed, narcissists displayed a preference for highly positive-noncaring targets compared with caring but not highly positive targets (Study 4). Finally, mediational analyses demonstrated that narcissists' romantic attraction is, in part, the result of a strategy for enhancing self-esteem (Study 5).

So, someone who's narcissistic will look for romantic partners who are:

  • Very positive (uplifting) people
  • Very self-oriented people (who offer less emotional intimacy)
  • Not very caring people (who offer more emotional intimacy)

A pessimistic but caring person who wants to bond emotionally makes a narcissist run in the other direction, while an optimistic but self-focused person who has little time for bonding makes a narcissist's heart flutter.


Narcissism: What've We Got?

On the plus side, dating a narcissist means you get:

  • Someone who's a bit more attractive than the average
  • Someone who's a bit more intelligent than the average
  • Someone who's more dominant and a stronger leader
  • Someone with a higher degree of charisma and personal appeal
  • Someone who thinks highly of herself and is normally positive

On the minus side, you also get:

  • Someone prone to scheming and manipulation
  • Someone who believes she's smarter, prettier, and more special than she is
  • Someone who isn't all that interested in emotional intimacy
  • Someone who's a lot more likely to have an affair or be uncommitted
  • Someone liable to snap your head off in a rage when and if you insult her

Anybody feel like heli-skiing?

Narcissists are one of the extreme sports of dating... you probably want to stay away unless you're itching for both excitement and danger.


date a narcissist

I tend to have a fair number of narcissists around me. This may be because I rate "Very High" on narcissism tests myself. It may also be because I rate "Very High" on empathy tests, too, and can get inside their heads... rather an unusual combination. The standard definition of a narcissist is someone who largely lacks empathy.

People high on narcissism tend to be low on empathy, and people high on empathy tend to be low on narcissism. I attribute my own somewhat bizarre mix to high natural empathy that I taught myself to suppress and switch off as a defense mechanism in my preteens.

Regardless the reason why I have it, I can talk not just from what I've read here, but I can also talk about what I've learned from being around narcissistic people, from dating narcissistic women, and from having a number of narcissistic personality traits myself (I'm not sure if I would actually classify myself as a "narcissist" or not, since I normally try and temper any narcissistic reactions by running these through an empathetic filter... that one's difficult to peg).


Narcissist Pickup

Two things to realize about trying to pick up a girl who's also a narcissist:

  1. She's much more sensitive to slights and aloofness and much more likely to auto-reject more quickly than most - you're walking on a finer wire with her

  2. She likes admirers, but only wants to actually spend time around them if they are admirers she considers "worthy" of her - e.g., they have status, charisma, fame, really good looks, sparkling intellect, or some other highly desirable trait she can learn from or benefit from having around her

I've watched beautiful women with narcissistic inclinations go for fat, balding men who worked as higher ups at television stations simply because they were impressed with the guy's credentials. These are not gold diggers, mind you - they're not dating the guy purely for riches.

I've had these girls brag to me about these guys flying them around to exotic locales and putting them up in expensive hotels. And I've had them tell me about how these guys bought them entire new wardrobes. But that's just a perk - it's not the reason why they're dating them.

All the narcissistic women I know (or, at least the ones I've maintained friendships and relationships with) have had good careers and plenty of their own money. They've also dated men who made less money than them - sometimes a good bit less.

To an outsider without a window into how their minds work, it might appear there's no pattern at all to why they date whom they do.

One moment she's dating a high-flying guy with a great career who's jetting her all over the globe and buying her expensive things. The next moment she's with a guy 6 years her junior who works as a barista at Starbucks but plans to open up his own photography studio "when he saves up enough" and lives in a tiny apartment.

(these are actual guys some of my ex-girlfriends and female friends have dated)

The key is this: the guy has SOMETHING about him that she finds impressive.

And, truth be told, every girl is looking for a man with something impressive about him.

But narcissistic women are looking for more of this than most.

So what do you need to pick her up in the first place?

You must:

  1. Exude positive energy. If she gets even the slightest hint of negativity from you, she's gone. She doesn't want it around her, and she doesn't want you bringing her down. She's very sensitive to ego regulation, and doesn't want to risk having someone around her who makes her feel bad. You might be able to get away with sarcasm or playful insults with some girls, but you won't get away with it with women who are narcissists.

  2. Don't tease much. She's a big girl and she can take it? Only if she knows you're 100% on her side, and she doesn't know that when she first meets you. When she first meets you, the only thing going through her head is, "Does this guy realize how great I am, or is he going to be another hater?" Every tease must be followed up with emotional validation - that is to say, telling her she's awesome, and showing genuine interest in her. You'll say, "No, actually, you're really good at that. How'd you even learn to do that in the first place?"

  3. Compliment her plenty (genuinely). She's a sucker for compliments, but ONLY if they're genuine. She's a narcissist... she's used to being admired. She knows when she's being brown-nosed because you want something from her (in which case, your compliments are fake, and rather insulting, because you don't actually realize how amazing she is), or when a compliment is genuine and you actually recognize something awesome about her. When it's the latter, she'll come to think more highly of you. This is really only all that important in the first few minutes - once you're deep diving, you'll be complimenting her by showing interest, and that's usually enough.

  4. Be high status. Again, she's accustomed to being around high-ish status people, at least, if not outright celebrities and business magnates and politicians (and the older she is, more beautiful she is, and/or more centrally located in an important city she is, the more likely she is to be around these people regularly), so you're not going to be able to fake this with her... you need to really have tight fundamentals and impressive-enough credentials to throw around.

  5. Escalate FAST. If she likes you, she likes you, and because she sees herself as "special" and above the commoners around her, she'll tend to have fewer inhibitions about moving quickly with an attractive man she's just met than most. However, that also means her escalation windows will close faster and she'll write you off sooner as a coward or a putz if you don't lead and make things happen. Don't want to get written off? Keep things moving forward.

  6. Be impressed, in a powerful way. That means things like leaning in just enough to show interest but not so much that you're falling all over yourself for her. Probe her with deep diving and find out about her accomplishments and let her tell you about them. Smile slowly and broadly as she tells you things, as if she's just let you in on a great and fascinating secret. Make sure she sees that you "get it" - she's up to some awesome stuff.

The more genuine you are, the better you'll tend to do with narcissistic women.

The more "gamey" you are - the more it feels like you're running game, or trying too hard - the more likely you are to quickly be written off as insincere, and thus, not genuinely high status and also likely to be someone who doesn't appreciate all of her qualities.

So if you want those flashy, high status-y, center-of-attention girls with barrels full of ego, make sure you're coming across like you really mean what you're saying and doing - and not like a caricatured pick up artist running lines and routines. This is important for ALL women, but narcissistic gals are more sensitive to it than the usual.


Having a Relationship with a Woman with Ego

date a narcissistNarcissists' relationships tend not to last that long.

With the women I've dated who are narcissists, our relationships have often been the longest relationships they've had... probably because I understand them enough to not be put off by their judgment of other people as weak.

I'm a pretty dominant guy with women, and even I have had the "weak" spotlight turned on me by narcissist girlfriends from time to time (this is something, by the way, that needs to be dealt with with a very strong hand the instant it appears or you sense it... especially with girls with ego, the instant you let her believe you're weak in any substantial way for any prolonged period of time, your goose is cooked).

The major advantages in my eyes of dating narcissistic women are:

  1. Plenty of passion. Narcissists tend not to have many close friends, and tend not to have long-lasting friendships, because nobody's perfect, and narcissists are relentless ego-protectors... as soon as a friend starts becoming a liability, he or she gets cut off. If you want a passionate relationship, date somebody who's a little (or a lot) crazy and doesn't keep many close contacts. Why? Because all the energy that, for most people, is spread out among a large cluster of contacts is instead devoted almost entirely to you... you become a very important, central figure in her life. And you get a whole heaping serving of passion as a result of this.

  2. A real "us vs. them" vibe. Because she's frequently fighting the world (or some other large, noble [or not so noble] cause), she'll rely on you to be on her "team." You'll support her on her endeavors, and she'll support you on yours. The feeling of closeness - despite the lack of emotional intimacy - is often much greater than you'll have with most other women.

  3. Keeping harmful people at bay. People who are less vigilant at pruning and maintaining their personal connections tend to pick up people who are "liabilities" in their contacts list over time - the friend who's always got drama going on, the ex-roommate who's always imposing, the colleague who constantly drinks to excess and needs a ride home. A narcissist might have a person like this around her for a little while - she does tend to meet lots of interesting new people - but she'll quickly grow impatient with her and soon cut her off. And she learns from each person like this - each dramatic or annoying experience is a personality type she knows to stay away from in the future. She's good at saying "no."

  4. Does things on her terms. One of the things a narcissist dislikes more than anything else is people trying to impose on her (she also highly dislikes people who allow others to impose upon them - this is the definition of "weak" to a narcissist). She'll tend to do things on her own terms, march to the beat of a different drummer, and be far more immune to social pressure than most. If all her friends are jumping off a bridge, she'll be watching them jump, shaking her head and saying, "THAT's stupid."

  5. Appreciates self-improvement. She wants to get better and stronger and more effective, and she appreciates you being able to do this too. She won't hold you back - in fact, she'll encourage you to do more, and get annoyed at you if you don't. She plans on becoming ever better, and she doesn't want to be with you unless she knows you'll be pulling her up rather than dragging her back.

I stressed the "advantages in my eyes" part of this above because if you're of a different mentality than I am, these may not be advantages to you. Passion everybody likes, but here's how some of the others might be interpreted differently by you:

  • "Us vs. them": some people are going to look at that and say, "But life isn't a battle! There is no 'us' and no 'them' - we're all in this together!"

  • People who are liabilities kept at bay: some people are going to look at that and say, "But I like my friend Jeb who always needs to borrow money, and I like Hank, even if he's always over here crying about some girl. They're my friends - I don't want to lose them!"

  • Doing things on her terms: some people are going to look at that and say, "But I want to do things with other people - I don't want us to always have to figure out our own things to do. Can't we just hang out with friends and drink beers and be normal?"

  • Self-improvement: some people are going to look at that and say, "Geez, that sounds exhausting. I don't think I could even keep up with someone like that - or want to!"

If any of those sound like you, then the advantages of dating a narcissistic woman are probably going to be disadvantages... and the disadvantages are still going to be disadvantages.

So, you have been warned.


Disadvantages of a Narcissistic Girlfriend

These, of course, are the ones we covered above:

  1. She's not nearly as committed. She's always got one eye on the exit door. She'll tell you she wants to stay with you forever... maybe. But she won't entirely mean it. (Of course, if you don't want "forever," this setup can be ideal) She'll still love you and like being with you, yes - but she'll be telling herself at the same time that relationships end every day and the only realistic thing is to expect that yours might one day, too - and it's best to be ready for when it does.

  2. The lack of emotional intimacy. Again, not a problem if you're not all that interested in this, but if you want to be able to sit around with a girl and just spill your heart out and have her spill hers out, you're going to be pretty disappointed when she gives you a look of annoyance and distaste when you try doing this with her, and follows that up by calling you "weak."

  3. She's a higher infidelity risk. The risk of infidelity is somewhat higher with a woman who's a narcissist - she'll tend to have had more partners than a woman who isn't, sex is less of a big deal to you, and she'll be more likely to assume your relationship is going to end one day anyway, so what's the big deal? On the other hand, one of the advantages when it comes to preventing cheating with her is that she only does what she wants to do and is not very easily led - whereas a softer girl might cheat on you "by accident" if she meets a very convincing man who's very good at leading, a narcissistic girl will only cheat if she wants to and decides to - so long as you don't give her a reason to, and she doesn't have a SUPER high sex drive and/or put herself in position to cheat very often, you're probably safe.

  4. She's probably pulling your strings. Not to hurt you, mind you - but she's very good at getting what she wants and protecting herself from being hurt. No one's ever 100% honest with you, but she's more likely to be at a lower percentage of honesty than a girl who's not a narcissist... and the bigger the narcissist she is, usually, the higher the level of dishonesty, often about things you will never know or suspect. She's a puppet master; she knows people very well, and she knows how to get what she wants from them, more often with charm and bats of her eyes and pretty little smiles than with the knife-twists-in-the-back that people seem to think of when they think of string-pulling (only sloppy amateurs do things that way).

  5. She thinks she's very special. Which is no big deal if you also think she's very special... and it'll be easy to think this, around her beautiful, charismatic self. However, if you really don't think she's anything special, it's going to start to annoy you that she thinks this about herself. (Then again, if you don't think she's anything special, why are you dating her?)

  6. She's prone to narcissistic fits of rage. Have you ever had someone totally wig out on you over something? So long as you don't seriously insult her, you won't have to worry about this, but if you're not terribly sensitive and can be hurtful or insulting sometimes, be prepared to watch her blow her top and go into rage mode from time to time.

Those may be enough to give you pause... or they may make you shrug, yell "Cannonball!", and dive right in.

Depends very much what you want with your life right now.


Running Your Relationship with Her

So how do you run a relationship with a narcissist?

Basically, the same way you'd run a relationship with any girl... except with a bit more of some stuff and a bit less of others.

She needs:

  • A little more attention, praise, and recognition

  • A little more sensitivity (so that you don't offend her accidentally)

  • A little more freedom and autonomy to do her own thing

  • A little more strength and dominance out of you (so you don't appear weak)

  • ... yet without you coming across overly controlling (which is annoying, and also looks weak... like you're too afraid to let go)

  • You to maintain and grow your status and other qualities and be on an upward arc

  • No sappy "Let's bond emotionally!" type cry-it-out, sharing-deep-dark-secrets stuff (even if she decides to open up to you... which she may, or may not)

  • You to agree with, or at least not be offended by, her judging other people as weak or low quality (you can disagree with her if you like - as an empathetic person, I've often found myself explaining others' actions to low/no empathy narcissists around me, but usually all this gets you is a grunt or a shrug or a, "Well, whatever")

  • A lot more really good sex (and for you to really make her orgasm)

If you're fine meting out (genuine) praise, are sensitive about not poking people in their sore spots, don't have much of a need for emotional connection, are strong and dominant, are highly self-improvement oriented and on an upward swing in your achievements and skills, are confident and secure and not overly jealous or controlling but still firm and certain in what you want, can at least control yourself around people calling other people "weak," and are good in bed, you should be fine with a narcissistic girlfriend.

However, if you act "weak" (i.e., you're controlling, or tentative, or jealous, or emotionally sensitive), or you can't deliver the goods in the bedroom, or you stall out and stop making progress in her life while she continues to... expect her to lose patience with you pretty quick, and cheat on, break up with, or otherwise make life a living hell for you.

Goes with the territory, I'm afraid.

She sees herself as being worth a lot. Whether you agree or not does not matter; that's how she sees herself. And as such, she expects a lot out of you... and if she stops getting it, she might cut you some slack for a little while, but she won't cut you slack for all that long.


Should You Date a Girl with an Ego?

Well, that depends on what you want.

While a softer, more sensitive girl might suffer in silence with bad, non-orgasmic sex, or tolerate you being wishy-washy or not making progress in life, or being a little jealous and controlling... an egotistic girl will call you out on this mercilessly. She will force you to upgrade yourself - or else, get out of her life.

I'd probably recommend you look more for women with a touch of narcissism than those with a full blown case of it. The women I've had the most rewarding relationships were the ones with SOME narcissism... and the lack of patience for the weak and the flawed that goes along with it - but who were also empathetic as well. You can't be on ALL the time, and women with zero empathy cut zero slack.

The good news for you as a man is that narcissism tends to be less pronounced in women. Even when I've had very narcissistic girlfriends, they've still cooked for me, cleaned (some) things for me, and asked about me.

(although usually, she's more assessing your strength and health for her own personal reasons - e.g., to see if she needs to help you out if, for instance, she really needs you and can't afford to have you break down or wear out, or if you're becoming weak and she needs to tell you to shape up or ship out)

Basically, if you have emotional needs of closeness and comfort and dependency that you need a partner to fulfill, don't date a narcissistic woman. You'll tear your hair out... you'll start feeling like a victim.

"I do SO MUCH for her, and she doesn't even VALUE it!"

If you have anything similar to white knight reasoning going on in your head ("I did X good thing for her, therefore she owes me Y amount of love and kindness"), you need girlfriends high on caring, not high on self.

However, if you'd like a girl who's going to call you on your crap more than coddle you and tell you it's okay, a narcissistic girl can be an excellent girlfriend.

My girlfriends with big egos have been some of the best teachers and motivators I've had in my life. Frustrating as hell sometimes, and you get no leeway whatsoever - instead of taking care of you when you're sick, they start hammering you and testing you hard, because they see it as a sign of weakness, for instance, and you need to rally your strength and make them submit just so that they'll realize that even when you're weakened, you're still mighty.

But they will push you to do better. They'll insist that you succeed. And they'll get disgusted with you the moment you start acting lazy, weak, or average.

If you want greatness, date a narcissist. She will demand it from you, and settle for nothing less. So long as you're kicking butt on your endeavors, you'll have a passionate girlfriend who appreciates you quite a bit, but if you ever start to slip, she'll first call you on it, and then, if it goes on too long, she'll get out.

Personally, I love having a girl with some ego - they make you into a dominant man like nothing else will, because you get no break from it - the moment you let your guard down, you're getting hit. You're forced to not just act it, but BE it.

But then, I'm something of a self-improvement nut... and if you're more "normal" than I am, you may not want that level of intensity and pressure and that little leeway around you.

Either way, a girl with a planet-sized ego always makes for an interesting dating experience - maybe try it out sometime and see if you can handle it (or if it drives you to madness instead).

Chase

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Lucca's picture

Online Dating


Chase-

I've been using a modified version of your online dating profile and it has been helping to land me an innumerable amount of dates with women. However, these dates have not been going great.

They have consisted of meeting at a bar/lounge with the girl, having a few drinks, maybe a little food, and then talking for about an hour and a half. I feel like I have come such a long way in the past 6 months that I've been reading this website- I used to be so nervous around women, and now I present a very confident vibe. I look women directly in the eyes, I don't have any nervous quick movements, I'm even starting to use some more advanced body language/touching/eye flirting. My fashion is much improved, and I even have some sexy facial hair! Most of the conversation is focused on the woman. I try to rarely talk about myself, and when I do, it's more vague, mysterious. Trying to do deep diving, even though it can be tedious when the girl keeps going on and on about her four brothers. Go me!

But none of this seems to make *that* much of a difference. I feel like results wise I'm almost at the same place where I began this search to become a man who is extremely successful with women. Many of the girls about an hour in to the date get a "text" from their friend/sister and say they have to go. I realize it is a bogus, self-created reason to leave. They look down when they tell me which is the obvious sign it's a lie. No offense taken- I don't get bitter. No time for that. I realize it's not me as a person, it's my game.

Any idea of what I'm doing wrong? Is the drinks or dinner date too ordinary? Should I be adding more of a sexual vibe (feels weird in the very beginning since this is the first time I'm meeting them? Should I be moving them way faster? Maybe it's too platonic?

But I almost feel more comfortable being platonic first considering I just met these girls! Some of them don't even look like their photos!

Maybe some more nuanced ideas about going on dates from meeting girls online would be helpful

- Lucca

Chase Amante's picture

Online Dating Dates

Author

Lucca-

Dates from online dating can be a little weird sometimes since it's really your first time meeting and you don't know if you'll have much chemistry. The best ones seem to be dates where either a) the expectations are set very firmly ahead of time, and she's coming to meet you purely for sexual reasons (you can do this sometimes if you're good with phone game; hard to do purely over text if you haven't met or spoken to her one-on-one first yet), or b) you meet up and do something fun / stimulating / exciting right away.

I usually don't like these dates at all for women I cold approach or meet socially, but some of my best dates from online have been things like taking a girl to a pizza bar with a lot of other people around and grabbing a table with other people already at it, going and shooting billiards, going to the beach in our bathing suits, going to Dave and Busters (the arcade / games place), and things along those lines. Just feels too weird to me sometimes meeting some girl for the first time and then you just sit and talk... it's a very similar feeling to the question of social burden on first approaching, where she doesn't know if she's going to be stuck with you yet or not. When you're moving around, there creates this experience of her walking around and coming to you and you coming to her and you leaving and her leaving and the two of you coming back together and it removes that social burden tension of feeling like you're going to get stuck.

I might suggest trying that, if the sit down date isn't working out. See if you take her to rollerskate or play lasertag or paintball or go do something else fun and active if that changes the dynamic - my guess is you'll see a difference.

Chase

340Breeze's picture

Sticking Point


The problem I've faced is that I've ended up liking certain girls a great deal, but they have turned out to be selfish, cold, domineering, and narcissistic. But they were not that way in the beginning! They were quite charming and submissive and appealing to my emotions...which is why I selected them in the first place.

But unfortunately I've consistently suffered from the 1-year drop. Their charm fades, they become comfortable, and and then the real selfish, arrogant, dramatic, neurotic sides come out. I'm pretty much the same guy all the time...until faced with disrespect. In the beginning they were much more influenced by my words and my power and complied with what I wanted. But after the 1-year drop, they become more dominant, more readily resistant to my power, and instead do whatever they wanted, whenever, without any regard to my emotions. Hence arguments. I've tried everything, and no amount of logic or trying to frame things as "we're a team" works or changes the situation. They just don't care and instead they try to justify their rude behavior instead of showing empathy toward me and understanding why their rude behavior makes me mad and why I cannot tolerate it. They want to get their way, and they could give a fuck less about what they say or do to try and get under my skin. Being calm and ignoring doesn't help because I'm left wondering how this woman could have the audacity to act this way, to me of all people?

And I've noticed this pattern time and time again. I fall for these charming women that turn out to be the biggest narcissists after the 1-year drop. I tell myself that they've changed! But they didn't change, they just weren't showing me their true selves. So I have reached a sticking point in my career with women. And so the only thing to do in the future is to try something new which is proper screening from the jump.

And so my request is for an article on how to properly screen women out on the first couple of dates. (Clearly I don't want a rude, narcissistic, domineering, unempathetic woman to be my wife).

The complexity here is that I know that in the beginning they're on their best behavior, acting mysterious and charming me to win me over and hiding their true selves, and talking about these issues kill the attraction. What to do/ask to see thru that BS and know with some degree of certainty if I should persist or head for the hills? How do I properly "test women" to act in the beginning (knowing that after 1-year they stop caring about impressing me anymore) so I can evaluate what they'll be like after the 1-year drop? Please help.

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Miguel's picture

How to spot them


It's fairly easy to differentiate a girl with a soft personality from a girl with a strong on (and egotist tendencies).

Just look at how they talk about other people. If they judge people negatively a lot, they will judge you later. If they have a hopeful and uplifting view of people, then they're caring.

I've been with a few girls like that who see people's flaws emphatically instead of calling it weakness or stupidity or grossness. They are very relaxing, but kind of boring after a while. However, if I ever get married one day, it would be with a soft-personality woman. They're too fragile to fight and they're afraid to test your strength. They're just too happy to have a strong man to protect them. They're actually able to value what they've got instead of deluded Narcissists who think they can eat their cake and have Brad Pitt too.

Narcissists are the best for casual relationships. They respond very well to emotionally cold distant game. They'll just "use you" for sex, which is exactly the ideal relationship you want with them. They're fun for a while in normal relationships, but most of them tend to dip under the line on the Crazy-Hot scale after a few months.

Chase Amante's picture

Relationship Power Imbalances

Author

Dehjomz-

There's another aspect to the broader picture of long-term relationship stability too, aside from identification (which Miguel has covered perfectly), and that's how firm you are with women and how much they feel they can get away with with you as time goes by. This one's has much less to do with screening (aside from screening in girls who are easier or harder to control long-term relative to your own present dominance levels) and much more to do with how you run relationships and how you handle disrespect.

Anyway, for that one I'll do a proper post - stay tuned.

Chase

Balla's picture

Being Sharper, more flaky numbers day game, High Staus


Chase I just want to say thank you for the article about the sticking point. I really appreciate it and I really dont want to stop reading your articles all the time like i do but if I have to lessen it for me to get better I will.

On with the questions, I remeber a few post ago you replied to one of my questions about being sharper, but I think you forgot about it and answered another question. What do I have to do to be sharper?

I heard on a board that day game nunbers are the most flaky nunbers. Ive only done night game so I wouldn't know. But is that true?

This article you talk about about having high status. I know it has to do with fundamentals but what else can you do to be better than these girls? Im not a celeb or anything so how can I build my status up above these women and compete with the celebs? How do you really be high Staus?

Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Flakes and Status

Author

Balla-

I got the note on being sharper, yeah (back on "Lower Your Standards (and Date Hotter Girls)") - it's still on the article queue, don't worry.

On flakes, I suppose it depends on your approach and how good you are at each, but generally daytime numbers are a fair bit more reliable than those you get from nighttime venues and approaches. Partly because women are more likely to write you off as "some drunk guy" when they met you at night, partly because they're more likely to have been drunk themselves and not really remember you, and partly because if you're meeting them in the wild crazy party mode that a lot of guys seem to adopt at night when she sees your number ringing or texting during the day it's, "Ugh, I do NOT have the mood for dealing with that man right now." Daytime's normally a lot less flakey if you're running it right.

On status - check out this article: Social Status: Building It and Using It.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

A wise girl


A wise girl several years ago once told me that it is best for men to "never act impressed" around women. What do you make of this?

Miguel's picture

Not true. You can be


Not true.

You can be impressed from a place of higher value.

What's bad is to be fawning at her.

Chase Amante's picture

High Value Impressed

Author

I'd say - think "intrigued" rather than "amazed."

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Paying on the First Date


Hi Chase,

Was having a great first date. We met up for dinner at a cosy, locals only Mexican food restaurant. Conversation was great, she was laughing, flipping her hair, showing signs of being interested. Then we got the bill. I said, with confidence and assuming a yes answer, "Cool if we split the bill?" She gave me a strange look, and muttered an "Ok." From that point on, the tone changed. We paid, she started texting on her phone, and said that her sister just texted her and she had to go pick her up from a friend's house. It was clearly a lie- something about not paying set this girl off, and against me! Weird!

Chalk it up to bad luck, or a girl with really old fashioned values? I make it a habit not to pay for the girl especially after reading your classic article on the subject. I'm not a provider.

Annon

Chase Amante's picture

Mood Shift After the Check Comes

Author

Annon-

That'll happen sometimes when a girl is mainly angling for a provider OR just out having fun and wants her meals paid for. You'll meet girls like that sometimes... in their minds, their job is to flirt and act interested and make you feel like a pretty girl like them really enjoys your presence, and your job is to compliment them and treat them to a nice evening. You not paying breaches this "contract."

These girls are often quite good at flirting and simulating interest and attraction, because that's what they do and they do it a whole lot.

The way around it is skipping the dinner date and making sure you're getting investment right off the bat. These girls screen themselves out pretty quickly because they aren't interested in anything other than a nice dinner / show / other expensive "classic" date from you and they don't want to do a lot of work for you - they want to sit back and relax and let you do all the investing. (it's not that they won't take ANYONE as a lover, it's that some guys they will, while other guys are mostly for dinners / shows / movies / etc., based on whatever their preferences are with men)

The other thing that can happen sometimes too is that her expectations get criss-crossed - e.g., she might have been fine with having you as a lover, or might have been fine with having you as a boyfriend candidate, but the dinner invite put you firmly into a box - "Okay, he wants to be my boyfriend," she says to herself - which you then didn't follow the 'rules' for (i.e., you didn't pay for dinner).

So, you put yourself in a box, then failed to meet the requirements for succeeding in that box. Leaves her feeling disappointed. Could be either that, or that she's just a gal who likes to get treated to dinners (and saw you as a guy who ought to be paying for things for her).

No girl who's genuinely interested in you goes cold after a great night because you split the bill. She only goes cold if she wasn't genuinely interested and then you split the bill, or if it wasn't all that great of a night and then you split the bill.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Cowards


Is being a coward a serious turn off to women like so serious she will put a guy into auto rejection? What about men who are nervous and awkward around their crush is that really bad? Could I get a girl attracted to me again if she already labeled me as a coward?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Cowards

Author

Anon-

Being a coward won't put her into auto-rejection - just the opposite: it'll cause her to see you as having plummeting value and she'll treat you overly nice, not wanting to hurt your emotions.

Getting nervous is worse the higher in value you appeared to be relative to her. For instance, a guy who seems like he's kind of an asexual guy who doesn't really "get it" around women who shows up and is nervous with a girl might actually seem cute and endearing; she certainly won't be sexually interested in him, but if she's very conservative/inexperienced and/or she's looking for a man for a serious relationship, she may occasionally say to herself, "There's my guy." On the other hand, a guy who seems like he ought to be a total stud who suddenly gets nervous seems like he's false advertising; she goes, "Oh. He seemed like he was really attractive. I guess he's got something wrong with him if he's acting this weird around me."

Best advice for nervousness, generally: learn the signs of it, and learn how to show it as little as possible, until you get enough experience with women that you stop being nervous around them.

Chase

Franco's picture

Not my type of cookie...


Generally, these types of women tend to auto-reject me just as quickly as I auto-reject them. I guess it's a mutual relationship. ;)

The women I prefer are generally polar opposite to these types of women, which is why I know all of your descriptions with their personality traits are on-point. But I do agree that pursuing these types of women will likely increase your dominant traits, which will help you in the long haul no matter what type of women you prefer.

Just some added thoughts. ;)

- Franco

mandime's picture

Just got done dating a narcissist


This was a great article, probably because I just got done dating a narcissist myself. From my experience, I wouldn't do it again. The relationship lasted about a year, and was the longest relationship this girl had ever had. Typically her flings lasted about 3 weeks (her words not mine). But, as Chase so excellently pointed out, she exhibited the following:

-Incredibly sexy/attractive and knew it
-Loved to be the center of attention - had fake breasts and liked flaunting them
-Cold and aloof at times
-Did things on her own time
-Not much reciprocation for things I did for her
-Very few girlfriends and had a lot of guy "orbiters" around her at all times
-Got into cat fights all the time and she flew into "narcisstic rage" a couple of times with me
-Had a complete chip on her shoulder and thought everyone was always out to get her

My advice - stay the hell away from these women. The sex is always hot and passionate, but even that will fizzle out at some point (regardless of how good you are in bed). To sum it up, these women are insatiable creatures. You will NEVER be good enough. Ever. So don't waste your time. At most, have a hot, passionate fling, but don't invest ANY emotional currency in these women. I'm a very dominate, attractive male and even I had a hard time with this type of girl.

Anonymous's picture

Black girls low demand


Good points here Chase.I wonder why are black women in lower demand then say the girls of other races?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Black girls low demand

Author

Anon-

Evidence for this statement is mainly based on online dating message response rates, like this graph from OkCupid's blog post "How Your Race Affects The Messages You Get":

okcupid-race-messages.png

... plus census data on black women's marriage rates, e.g., this excerpt from "Black Women Least Likely Group to Marry":

Census data indicate that African-American women born after 1950 are the least likely group to get married, and black couples have the highest divorce rate in the country. Recent studies identify black women as the most uncoupled group of people in the country, with more than two out of three women in that demographic who are unwed.

Anyway, the mainstream reasons you'll hear are that because so many more black women than black men are getting college degrees and higher paying jobs, black women are educating themselves out of the black dating pool. But then the question is, "Why don't they marry other races?"

The OkCupid graph shows that the response rates of other races to black women are a good clip lower.

Reasons for why are pretty sensitive, and no one really talks about them. I will, though; I'm not much for being politically correct. Here's what I think the reasons are:

1.) Hair - when I lived in Philadelphia, I'd meet black girls all the time with straightened black hair. I thought this was sexy as HELL, and every time I stop back through the city I'm happy to see the style's still going strong there. But when I lived in D.C. and Southern California (not that there are many black people in Southern California), black women seemed to really prefer "natural" hair there - which, and I can only speak for myself as a white guy here, that doesn't do it for me. It doesn't match what I think of or perceive as "feminine": to me, feminine is silky, flowing hair draped smoothly down over the shoulders (I'm also not fond of white girls with overly frizzy hair either). I suspect there are a lot of white, Asian, and Latin men with similar tastes to me, who natural frizzy, fro-y black girl hair doesn't do it for, and there's a big pro-natural hair movement going on among black women right now.

2.) Attitude - black women are tough cookies. That's fine for me - I like my women tough. Soft girls get their hearts quickly (if inadvertently) trampled around me. But I'm surprised how many men tell me over and over again they want soft, sweet, tender women. Black women are the opposite of this (on average) - they're loud, they're proud, and they're used to having to pick up the slack and make things happen. For a lot of guys, I think, that's a turnoff.

Anyway, there's my (very non-PC) answer: I think for a lot of guys it's simply too-frizzy hair and too-tough attitudes.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Re: Black Women


Hi, Chase...love your blog! You have such interesting topics on here. Sorry if I'm off-topic, but I want to share my thoughts on what you said about Black women.

First, Black women are not a monolith. Some are tall, short, fat, thin, curvy. Some look almost white. Some are jet black. Some are chocolate brown. Some have long silky hair and some have short hair. Some are loud and fierce. Some are quiet and shy. Not every Black woman looks the same or has the same personality. Just as not every white man (or woman) is the same.

Also, "black" can encompass a lot of different cultures...Jamaican, Haitian, Dominican, Trinidadian, etc. I think people sometimes forget that Black women live all around the world, not just here in America.

I believe that while you are certainly entitled to your preferences, there are some things I disagree with. There are a lot of misconceptions and generalizations about Black women. About our hair and a whole lot of other things. I want to attempt to clear some of that up, if I may.

Hair....this is a very sensitive issue with many Black women. Straightened/relaxed hair on Black women is something that started centuries ago thanks to Madame CJ Walker, a Black female entrepeneur. Some Black women straighten their hair because of the prejudice they deal with from white people and others, especially at work. Some white people believe that "natural" (hair that is not relaxed) hair is militant or a political statement, which isn't true, but it makes them uncomfortable.

You expressed a preference for relaxed hair on Black women. Nothing wrong with that, but it sounds like maybe "natural" hair is too different for you. Very few women in the media are shown with their hair in its natural state, especially Black women. You said this: "To me, feminine is silky flowing hair draped smoothly down the shoulders".
Once again, I know this is your preference and that's cool. But here's the deal...that seems to come from a Eurocentric standard of beauty. Most Black women don't have hair like that. Some do, but most don't. And it doesn't make them less feminine than a white woman with straight hair. It is a unique hair texture because most people of other races have straight or wavy hair.

I have very long hair and it is relaxed (straightened). This is because I never learned how to take care of my hair in its natural state, which is true of many other Black women. But maybe I will switch to natural someday. My husband is white and although he likes the way my hair looks when it's straight, he also likes my hair when it hasn't been straightened for months. It smells good and feels softer when I stop putting relaxers in it, plus it is healthier. Relaxed hair can look nice, but it is a very damaging process.

The popularity in natural hair is making a comeback because it's about Black women learning to appreciate their unique beauty (including their hair) because for a long time, they were called ugly and inferior by others. Natural hair can be very feminine...it just depends on the style and how well a person takes care of it.

Attitude....this is definitely a generalization. I won't deny that some Black women are loud and aggressive. But like I said, not all Black women are the same. Plenty of Black women are soft, sweet, and tender (myself included). Unfortunately a lot of people are not exposed to this particular type of Black woman so it is easy to assume that other races are nicer and more feminine than Black women in general.
You must realize that Black women deal with a lot of crap, hence the "attitude" that many seem to have. They deal with racism, sexism, abuse, and negative stereotyping in the media and real life. They are often made to feel like they aren't as good as other races of women.
Women of all races can have "attitude" given the right circumstances. I was taught to be a lady by my mother, but I can stand up for myself when I'm being disrespected. It depends on the situation.

Some Black women can be rude and ignorant, but that has nothing to do with race...that is about the way a person is raised. I've seen trashy behavior from all kinds of women. I don't nag my husband or yell at him. I'm affectionate and kind and loving. I try to keep myself in shape and look as pretty as possible, as much as my budget will allow. I want to cook for my man and treat him right and have his children. I am a feminine Black woman and I know quite a few other ladies like me. I'm not calling anyone racist or anything, please don't take it that way...I simply wanted to address some of your points and give my perspective.

Pm61591's picture

Getting a girl back


Hey Chase,

I need your help my good man! Long story but Ill try to make it short. I let my gf of 8 months go because I had to get my health back (overweight, knee rehab/surgery, and lack of sleep from night shift) I had no time for her and felt it'd be unfair. 2 weeks after that we started sleeping with each other again although a lot less then we use to. However during those 2 months she was acting very close to me. Felt like she was trying to win me back. 2 weeks ago after not seeing each other for 2 weeks we hang out all day. Again she is acting like she was trying to win me back or like she was rubbing how good she was in my face. Later that night I made her orgasm but it wasn't a powerful one, I was not on my A game plus I waited all day! Afterwards she is very distant. Asked me to take her home which is rare and again is distant. She pushed pulled me! A week goes by and I text her this time wanting to fuck. She agrees and tells me to come over. I go over and give her the raw sexual enthusiasm, it backfired. She is actin very distant. She won't kiss me or anything which she did a week ago. I finally get her pants off but at that point I was turned of because she was acting cold and aloof. I leave but then I decided to go back cause I wanted to talk. I asked her if she was trying to get me back in a relationship and she laughed and said no never again or something along those lines in a rude way. She then told me she was steady fucking her one fuck buddy for the past two months. I flipped out cause we both promised to tell each other when we sleep with someone else. She just didn't really care at all and didn't know why it was a big deal. Anyways a week goes by of all contact and I then decided to write her a letter as pissed as I was. It was a nice letter, I said sorry we didn't work out and told her I loved her and that she didn't waste her time. I haven't heard from her in 4 days since I dropped of the letter in her mail. My questions to you is why did she lead me on emotionally and then become so distant? Is she gaming me? And is the apology letter too late since it was 2 months ago I let her go? How should I handle the promise she broke even tho I already flipped out. Help me out chase I'm going crazy I want it back to when she was chasing me.

Chase Amante's picture

Dynamic Shifts

Author

Phil-

These situations are no fun. They'll drive you crazy if you let them.

What happened here was you let her go, and she started seeing a guy casually. Based on her response to you (chasing after you, trying to get things back), it seems relatively clear that what he was giving her experience-wise / in the bedroom did not measure up to you, or what she remembered of you. She wanted things to go back to how they were.

After a day of working hard to win you back, the sex wasn't very good, and she felt let down. The impact of this is greater when a girl has options - she's effectively comparing you against at least one other man she's with right now. She probably sees him as mediocre, and thought, "Phil's a lot better," but mediocre sex leads to her shaking her head in disappointment and going, "Sigh, I'm wrong... Phil's the same."

Women tend to view your sexual performance not as a reflection of your value as a man, but as a reflection of theirs - a man who rocks her world is telling her he's so into her that he wants to make her cum hard and have a great experience and he cares very much about her. A man who doesn't makes her feel like, whatever his words are saying to the contrary, he isn't really all that into her and doesn't really care all that much.

Telling you she was seeing another guy is her way of telling you, "I'm no longer considering you for a relationship," because a girl who wants you in a relationship (which it sounds like she wanted before the time apart / mediocre sex, then subsequent failed escalation) will never tell you about other men she's currently seeing (unless she thinks you're completely non-judgmental and will not care an ounce). It's a message for you to slow your horses and stop pursuing a relationship; she's saying, "Look, I don't want a relationship with you and I'm not really what you want in a relationship either."

The flipping out over this is a bit of a nail in the coffin; it's telling her you care a lot more about a relationship with her than she does with you, which is quite bad for your value as either a casual lover or a relationship partner (or anything else for her). If you get something like this from a girl, the response you want is to shrug it off with a, "Cool," and show zero interest or reaction, as if she'd just told you she was going on a business trip for a week or was going to leave work early tomorrow to go see Cirque du Soleil with her girlfriends. Then just talk about something else.

Following up with the letter in this circumstance, that quickly, makes you come across as emotionally unstable/uncertain, and thus, again, much more strongly affected by her than she is by you. The chain of events is: you break up with her (you're higher value), she starts seeing someone else, she chases after you (you're still higher value), you sleep together but it's mediocre (you lose value), you try to escalate aggressively after a mediocre sexual performance and don't succeed (you lose more value), she tells you she's seeing someone else and you get upset (you lose more value), you cut contact, then send a letter reversing your position and apologizing (you lose more value). The flip-flopping really kills you here; e.g., break up, start seeing her again; get upset, then apologize. Any one of them is okay if it's maintained, but flip-flopping makes it clear you're not really sure what you want, and this sends women running for the hills.

At this point, with a lot of damage done to your value, really the only thing you can do is try to rebuild value, since you've written yourself out of contention for both the lover (by getting upset / controlling / judgmental, and by giving mediocre sex) and the provider (by breaking up, and by flip-flopping) roles for now. I don't see a way you can rebuild value with the girl herself directly; she's probably finished giving you chances to, and even if she did there's nothing I can see you can do that won't come across either as chasing or as capitulating, with you giving her good sex / great experiences while settling for a situation you've previously made clear is untenable for you (her seeing you and another man).

I'd suggest forgetting this girl for now, and getting some new girls lined up - preferably ones more attractive than her. Once you get a girl you can start seeing regularly and can let her find out about (e.g., via social media, via running into her in public with your girl in tow, etc.), you can reset her opinions of you and make her wonder what's different and see that women prettier than her value you - and thus, perhaps it's time to give you another shot.

Of course, by that time, you may have lost interest in this girl, and be happy with your new girl. Time will tell.

Chase

Knight's picture

Narcissistic


Interesting. I feel like I fall under the anti-social Narcissistic genre in many ways. I mirror a lot of those points... I'll look into this and myself more in the future.

Will read the article fully in the morning as I'm falling asleep here and don't want to forget it from lack of sleep.

Knight's picture

Narcissistic #2


I kept on reading. You had my interest but now you have my attention.
I've heard this label thrown around before and have never taken notice and instead let stereotypical views of the word guide me in learning it was an unattractive quality. Upon reading this I've started to identify that I'm possibly narcissistic but at the same time have chosen to limit my identification upon the possibility of jumping the gun. I'm no expert on identifying a narcissistic person afterall!

Are the narcissism and empathy tests available online? I have huge amounts of empathy at times but also have had the realization that I contain narcissistic traits possibly to the extremes.

Knight

Chase Amante's picture

Narcissism / Empathy Tests

Author

Knight-

Psychology's really kind of a pseudo-scientific arena right now; even the DSM 5 has been panned by several prominent health agencies in the U.S. and U.K. governments. So take any assessments of psychological profiling with grains of salt when you come across them. However, as rough guides, they can be fun / interesting / useful.

The best test on personality disorders (narcissism, paranoia, obsessive-compulsion, etc.) I've seen is here:

Personality Disorder Test

Worth bearing in mind: every insane person has personality disorders, and pretty much every very successful / great historical figure does too. So these tend to be both blessings and curses.

Here's a rough empathy test on OkCupid:

The Empathy Test

There's a more comprehensive one here, but it doesn't always work:

Empathy Quotient

Don't go changing your life path based on the results of these, but they might give you a clearer picture of roughly where you stack up compared to other people.

Chase

Knight's picture

Tests re:


Gracias -

Paranoid: Low
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: Very High
Antisocial: High
Borderline: Moderate
Histrionic: Very High
Narcissistic: Very High
Avoidant: Very High
Dependent: Moderate
Obsessive-Compulsive: High

Possibly will have to learn to counter my traits in future interactions with all. These quizzes although not final like you said do help to explain a lot of my behavior right down to my focused choice of hobbies and often unclear thought. I like to view these as benefits though - my favourite mentors are all different in some way to what is classified normal.

Knight

Anonymous's picture

English teacher


A few years ago I remember reading that you had a friend who taught English as a foreign language overseas and he was a very good seducer. You said it was one of those jobs that was very good for meeting women and living this lifestyle... care to elaborate more? And talk briefly about this friend? I'm considering doing this after I graduate from my masters program.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: English teacher

Author

Anon-

English teaching's a great way to see the world for a little (or a long) while. I've met guys who've done it for a few years after college, or decided to take a break from the corporate world. I even briefly, some years back, spent a few months teaching English and other subjects to high schoolers myself, although that wasn't something I could do for any real amount of time. Great experience to have, though.

Depending on the country you're traveling too, getting an English teaching job is pretty easy if you're a native English speaker, and particularly so if you're from one of the big four English-speaking countries: Australia, Canada, the U.K., or the U.S. However, I've met English teachers from Eastern Europe and other places who weren't native speakers as well (but had learned English / lived in an English-speaking country). Most countries will require you to have either a bachelor's degree or a TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language) / TESL (Teaching English as a Second Langauge) / TESOL (Teaching English as a Second or Other Language) certificate. A few very strict countries (e.g., South Korea) require you to have both. Some countries with a lot of demand for English teachers and looser requirements won't require either so long as you're a native speaker. However, you'll generally command the highest salary by having both a 4-year degree and a TEFL / TESOL certificate. You can get a TEFL / TESOL certificate over a one-week or several-weekend span of time for about $1,000 most parts of the world, and the higher pay you'll be able to command in your first year alone will cover this and more by a healthy clip typically, so it's worth doing. Makes it easier to land the position you like, too.

Teaching English in Western Europe is more difficult for non-U.K. citizens, from what I understand; and, there's a special certification most Western European countries require to teach there - you'll typically need either CELTA or Trinity TESOL certifications... these take a bit more time and a bit more money to get than a standard TEFL / TESL / TESOL certificate. If you want to teach in Eastern Europe, South America, or Asia though, TEFL / TESOL tends to be sufficient.

Many English-teaching jobs you can find while still overseas, and have them pay for your flight out to the host country and flight back at the end of the teaching year (assuming you want to return home and not remain in the country). They'll typically take care of your visa to get in the country / stay / work, and often will provide you a place to stay or help you find somewhere. Or you can always just fly to where you want to go and find work there - there are job boards that list the various schools and their teacher needs (not sure what these are, but you can find them if you search online). There's a certain time of year it's best to look for a teaching position - if I remember right, it's about April through June, and then usually by August/September most of the good schools already have their teaching staff, but there are always schools scrambling to fill spots in September/October in most countries and then schools throughout the year looking to fill vacancies by teachers who had to leave for one reason or another. The hardest part of the job is usually lesson-planning, but you can find pre-made lesson plans online, and if you're going to a good school they'll help you lesson plan or already have lesson plans laid out that you can use to teach from.

My friends who teach English tell me it's not too bad the first year, and after that, once you know what you're doing, it's a breeze, and a lot of fun. They all seem to enjoy teaching a lot and find it pretty rewarding.

As far as my friend, he lived in South Korea for a number of years (many English teachers who want to go to Asia go to South Korea because it offers the highest salaries in Asia for English teachers), and learned pretty much everything he knew about meeting women there. I don't believe he ever got a college education; I think he worked for a year after high school, and then flew straight to Korea and started teaching English. He was pretty happy with the work, and slept with some pretty attractive women, both Korean and other Asians, Europeans, and Americans who were visiting the country. He's always had a very fun, innocent, cutesy kind of vibe that a lot of other guys I've known who've specialized in picking up Asian women in Asia have had - I guess to take some of the edge off of being an edgy, mildly intimidating foreigner - and apparently it worked (I've never quite gotten how my friends with these really cutesy vibes get beautiful girls, but there's apparently a distinct - and not so small - subset of women that just go for that). He eventually left Korea after 5 or 6 years there, and he's now traveling about Asia and spending time in some of the other countries on the continent and working on a handful of Internet businesses.

One note on the downside of English teaching: it's often regarded by local women as a "low status" position, just because of the type of men it tends to attract (guys who aren't very ambitious, don't have much education, don't have particularly good job prospects, etc.). Although if you're not going for the tip-top caliber women and are content with regular cute girls - or you're just using it as a springboard to get situated in a country or see the world for a bit - this shouldn't be much of a problem.

Chase

Wallflower's picture

Narcissistic men


Hey Chase,

So, do these traits that narcissistic women exhibit correlate with men's? So, what would you do to keep a narcissistic male around in a friends zone? Is it even possible? I know someone who is interested in me, don't know if it's just that he wants to have sex or whatever, and while I find him irresistible too, I need to keep him at bay, but not too far :) cause I need him. Is there any way to do to this without giving in to his advances? Just curious. I know guys don't need girls as friends, they only want to sleep with us :) but maybe I can still accomplish this. The reason being is that I love the guy, really like him, don't quite like his personality, he is prone to throwing rages and other stuff, and I wouldn't be able to or want to ever be his gf or anything of this sort. He has done some pretty impressive things with his life careerwise. Any ideas? Btw, I am definitely not a narcissist and maybe too caring sometimes. Urgent help with this matter would be highly appreciated!

Thanks,
Wallflower

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Narcissistic men

Author

Wallflower-

They do correlate, although in men they tend to be more extreme (something about testosterone inflating the ego... or something). To keep a narcissistic man in the friend zone, I'd say: make sure he never feels like you're using him or leading him on. Narcissists (perhaps because they're adept at pulling strings themselves) are very sensitive to this and despise feeling like they're being "used" in any way.

If you're showing genuine interest in him and complimenting him genuinely, and he feels like you're a high caliber person, he'll be interested in keeping you on as a friend. I typically wear my narcissist hat with friends, and I can tell you the women I'm most vulnerable to staying friends with are the ones who are attractive, have a sharp eye for what I'm good at and aren't shy about saying it ("Chase, you are SO perceptive; it's like you always know what's going on in everybody's heads! Every time I'm around you I learn so much!" "Everyone, this is my friend Chase, he's SO much fun! He's always doing something interesting!"), much as I hate admitting that (but hey, it's true, and if I examine these friendships that's one of the patterns that sticks out), and are also people I consider ambitious high achievers themselves: good careers, positive and upbeat, and always have new / fascinating things going on. They also tend to invite me to cool events, although maybe that's just me (I'm lazy about organizing things myself, but if people I consider to be really cool people do and invite me personally "Chase! I'm going to this networking event tonight at XYZ bar! You should totally come, you'll love it!" I'll often try to put in an appearance).

Women I've had as friends who started getting mopey and depressed or whiney and complain-y and stayed that way for a while I've faded out pretty fast because they're downers (usually I try to help them first, but man, most people who are down don't really want to be helped, they just want to be down and try to bring you down too). And there's always some sexual tension lying underneath the surface there too, but I prefer not to make moves on friends if I can avoid it, and my female friends are pretty good about not making moves on me either. I typically stay out of situations where they might be tempted to do something, too.

So, if I had to lay out the rules for keeping a narcissistic guy as friends and no more:

  1. Be positive and upbeat
  2. Compliment him genuinely on his strong points
  3. Be high caliber / ambitious / impressive yourself
  4. Maintain some sexual tension, but don't overtly flirt and stay out of situations where there might be temptation

If you do all that, you should be able to maintain the friendship as long as you like, Wallflower!

Chase

Wallflower's picture

:))))


Thank you so much, sweetie!! You are so so awesome and beyond awesome! I am going to try this. xo

glassflank's picture

Intriguing


This is really cool man. I dated a girl like this a while ago, quite wealthy and said herself she had 'status'. I totally blew it, but found her very intriguing.

It's good to see the benefits and drawbacks and get a bit of confirmation how I lost her.

Vaughn's picture

2 ?'s about worrying of what people think


Hello chase I was just wondering how I can stop caring about what people think about me. I worry about it with pick up and just people in general. What people think of me really matters to me and I want everyone to think highly of me.

Also, if I get rejected and people know, wont that make a girl not want you if the other girl didn't want you? I cant live with that. How do I still look like a winner in another girls eyes if she knows I've been rejected? Thank you

Chase Amante's picture

What Others Think

Author

Vaughn-

I don't believe it's possible to ever completely stop caring what other people think. Our identities are defined by what we see through others' eyes; if everybody around you tells you you're brilliant, you'll start to think you're pretty brilliant, while if everybody around you tells you you're a dunce, you'll start to think that instead.

The best thing you can do for ego maintenance is to find a group to belong to where you're able to develop status, rise in the ranks, and derive an identity from. For instance, you might take up salsa and really plow into it and turn yourself into one of the best dancers there. You can then use that to draw confidence from in other areas. You might then start taking golf lessons, and you'll suck at golf and everybody around you sees it at the golf course, because you're just learning, but you'll already know you kick ass at salsa and so the impact on your self-esteem won't be as great as if you didn't have an ego safe haven. As you go, you can develop more skills and more groups / people who respect you for what you know and can do and who you are, and this makes your ego more resilient.

If you're getting rejected in social circle, yes, this will make getting anywhere with other women more difficult, unless you've already got so much going on for you and are so high status that you can shrug this off. If you still want to look like a winner, I'd suggest display a skill perfected to a high degree (could be anything from winning the school science fair to showing off the impressive body you've built through working out to telling really great stories) or letting those in your circle see you flirting (and getting good reactions from) other pretty girls.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Question I never got a good answer for


Chase, I hear about girls getting "gang banged" and they do all these things with guys. Like give oral to a man while on the phone with her boyfriend. Letting multiple guys sleep with them and guys taking turns with the one girl. Lettting guys record them having sex or doing oral on them, and this isnt on the internet i see this from people i know. Why do girls degrade themselves like that and how do guys pull this off?

P.s. Is it really bad for my seduction if I tell girls I want to sleep with them and do sexual things with them? At least imply I want sex? Because I want to cut to the chase and let it be known and I read your sticking point article, you said if you've been doing something and it hasn't worked change it. Im gonna be more direct with my sex intent because being subtle isnt getting me anywhere. Leeme know what you think. Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Kinky Sex Acts / Being Sexually Direct

Author

Anon-

"Degrading" is all in the mind of the beholder. You might be surprised how many women are at least interested in what you might think of as "degrading." I came from a fairly conservative upbringing, so it took me a while to let go of my judgment (I remember being shocked when a sorority girl I met at a bar in college told me she'd lost her virginity slept with 5 guys in the 6 months since coming to school, and that her "big sister" in the sorority was still way ahead of her, at 27 guys... I was so surprised and turned off at this at the time that I ignored all the blatant signs from her that she wanted me to take her home right there and just let her go instead!). These days though, even very conservative girls I can talk about them taking two guys' cocks at the same time and they'll shake their head and say "no," but I can still see the spark of interest in their eyes. And even the most conservative of girls is excited at the idea of you recording sex with her (although she might ask you to delete it afterward).

The fact is, sex is sex. It's bodies doing things together. To women who are sexually open, it's not a big deal, and it's fun to play around with and see what feels good. To women who are sexually repressed, it's something they've tried to deny themselves for so long that the curiosity is killing them and, sometimes, waiting for the right chance (or guy) to explode.

Guys pull these things off by being both calm about sex and nonjudgmental about it, and being sexy and not boyfriend candidates. The more a girl thinks a guy might make a good boyfriend, the more she's going to be on her best behavior and act conservative around him and try to make sure he sees her as pure as a fresh snowfall. The less she sees him as a boyfriend candidate and the more she sees him as just a fun, sexy, exciting guy she can have a great time with without being judged and feeling bad about herself, the more open she'll be about trying out new things or letting her fantasies run wild. This guy is like a vacation to her; he's a chance to try the things she'd never dare try with a man she wants in a more permanent position in her life, who's going to meet her friends and loved ones and play an important role for her.

As far as telling girls you want to sleep with them... I know some guys who do this and make it work. It generally works best for guys a woman would normally consider lower value / lower social status than herself - e.g., shorter than her, of a race that isn't as well-regarded by her race / in her area, etc. Basically, a guy she normally wouldn't consider for a boyfriend, and might not even like all that much... but if he goes up and talks to her and turns her on a bit, and then suddenly whispers into her ear that he wants to do naughty things to her, there are some women who find this very exciting - it's a secret liaison with a man they'd otherwise normally write off or ignore. This kind of thing backfires if she sees you as higher value than her or is assessing you as a potential boyfriend, but if you're out of the running for being a boyfriend and she thinks she might be higher value than you are, it can sometimes be surprisingly effective. If you're curious about it, try it out - although, don't just state the flat fact that you want sex, but do it in a sexy way - whisper it in her ear, brush her hair aside as you say it, really make her FEEL the sex as you deliver the words. Create desire, don't just state intentions.

Chase

Wolf's picture

Aggressive Thug


How should I act as a black man with all these women in general? Should I be more aggressive and no nonsense? Should I be like a thug or gangsta and be all serious with women?
How should I act to get girls as a black man?

and what is the fastest way I can bed girls? Should I just go for same day lays or just tell them just to come over my house like a gangsta and not take them on dates? I heard girls love the thugs!

Chase Amante's picture

Wolf- It probably depends on

Author

Wolf-

It probably depends on the kinds of women you're going for - for white girls / Asian girls / Latinas / most black girls, you'd want to go the opposite of thug, like what I responded to Balla to do here: "White Girls and Black Guys."

There might be a certain kind of woman who responds best to "thugs" - e.g., ghetto Asians, hood rats, redneck chicks, etc. These kinds of women I don't have much interaction with, and have never done especially well with, so I don't know their exact preferences all that well.

However, the black guys I've known who've picked up the most attractive women the most consistently have all been the clean cut, gregarious, personable types referred to in that comment linked to above.

Having spent a few years of my life thugged out with a tough guy demeanor and loose clothes and concealed weapons and handcuffs and police and lots of gold jewelry and a menacing facial scowl, I can tell you that my experience has been that being a thug is something you do for men, not for women. Being a thug is most useful for impressing / intimidating other men, but it's not exactly a sexual persona to women, any more than a mafia guy or an ex-convict or a rough neck is sexy. Thugs are powerful, in their way, yeah, but they're not the guys women dream about at night, because they don't understand social norms, and one of the biggest forms of power is the ability to navigate the social arena and use it to get other people to help you get what you want out of life. The smooth, charming, attractive guy with a good sense of humor and a silver tongue and sharp, fashionable dress, on the other hand, knows how to work society and get what he wants, and he knows how to be appealing to women.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Very on point. Thanks for


Very on point. Thanks for answering this. So I guess once you come off as weak to them and insult them you're done for good? There's no way to make them feel special again/ have them understand you were going through a rough period?

Seems like auto-rejection with these girls is more powerful and can't be turned around. But usually there's a solution to every problem....

Here's an interesting one for you, Chase. A narcissistic girl that is used to being abused. She has all of the narcissism there, but at the same time under it all thinks very lowly of herself and is prone to abusive guys/relationships. I wonder if in that situation the girl is more attracted to guys that insult/abuse her.

Ahhh the psychology in all of this :) Love psychology and that's why I love your material. Have a good one.

Chase Amante's picture

Insulting / Abusive Relationships

Author

Anon-

Depends on the girl, how strong her emotions were for you, and how bad the incident was. If she really dug you, there's usually a way to turn it around. If she was only ever mildly interested in you and then you went supernova on her and she got disgusted and left, it's probably done for good, yeah.

Narcissism and abuse-prone... that's uncommon, but I've got a picture in my head of a girl I nearly hooked up with a while back (but backed out of doing so with in the 11th hour)... she was quite beautiful, a lot of very strong positive qualities, loved to talk about them, but her relationships were terrible and her life was a mess. I decided better about getting involved in that. Actually, a few girls from my past meet that bill, now that I think about it.

But typically, yes, girls with that kind of history want men who will insult and abuse them. They tend to consider men who don't to be weak / pushovers - they define "man" as someone who will verbally or physically force them to submit and punish them for uppity-ness, violently if necessary.

I'd stay away from that if you value your sanity. Otherwise, you'll be stuck between having to be a hurtful person, or being viewed as weak and unmanly because you don't want to be.

Chase

Balla's picture

How to stop getting excuses from girls?


Chase I found a sticking point that seems to happen with every single girl. Girls agree to go on dates with me but a day before the date they always have excuses for them not being able to go on the date with me, so after that I drop em'. What can I do to stop this?

And I have alot of girls numbers I cut off and I want to see how I can talk to them again after so long of no contact. I never really got to know these girls so I dont know what to text them to get them to warm up and come out. What should I do to get these girls I dropped off?

Chase Amante's picture

Flakes

Author

Balla-

See this article on flakes: What to Do When Girls Flake.

However, if it's happening every time, it may be either that there's a fundamental flaw in your text game (e.g., you're being one of the stereotypical "bad texters" mentioned in How to Text Girls: 20 More Tips and Techniques, or you may be doing something wrong in how you're ending your interactions when you meet them). I'm assuming, of course, that these are new girls you're meeting via cold approach, and that you're talking about a good-sized number; e.g., if 10 or 15 new girls you've met via cold approach for the first time have all flaked in a row, that's a big problem. Alternately, if 2 or 3 girls you know socially keep flaking, the problem may very well not be your texting or your approaches; it may just be that you're chasing around the same girls who aren't interested in being more than friends over and over again.

Follow this rule: once a girl's flaked on you 3 times maximum, you won't schedule any further dates with her again, unless she's going to come over to your place to spend time with you there. For me, the number is 2; a girl gets a second chance after she flakes once, but if it happens again before we've slept together, she isn't interested enough for me to continue spending time on her. If she texts me to meet up again, I just tell her she needs to make it up to me and to come to my apartment to cook me dinner. The ones who are serious about you always agree, and the ones who aren't get scared off quite fast.

On following up again after a long period of radio silence, see this post on the GC boards: Check-In Text If You Haven't Texted in a While.

Chase

jayjay's picture

Joint or Separate Banking accounts


Hey Chase,
Lately I know I have been asking a lot of questions on marriage and marriage might be beyond what the site specializes so I have been also looking at other websites and what their opinions are, but the fact of the matter is, is that your opinion is invaluable, I have tested out all your stuff and have come back with amazing results so I trust you 100%, and that is a lot more than other sites.
So Joint or Separate banking accounts for marriage Chase? Any websites you recommend for advice on marriage?

Edit: Hey Chase on your article on self expansion I read this

"It talks about the powerful force that association plays in close long-term relationships. Emotional association, something I ought to write a proper post on, is the term for when a person feels so close to you that they feel like the two of you are “bound”. They feel what you feel (or what they think you feel), and retain a sense of responsibility toward you that compels them to strongly seek to avoid hurting you and actively seek to help you succeed in all different kinds of ways."

I can't find the post on it but maybe I am just bad at the search engine.
Does emotional association happen naturally when a chick falls in love with you or are love and emotional association not correlated? Does it also depend on how emphatic the chick is naturally?

Chase Amante's picture

Banking, Emotional Association

Author

Nick-

On banking, I'd recommend you keep both a joint account and a separate account. Joint, just because it's easier to pay for household items from the joint account and keep track of expenses, and because that way if, for instance, you end up in a situation where your wife is staying at home to take care of the kids while you work, you can make sure she has a steady supply of money to use when she needs it (e.g., for grocery shopping, purchases, emergency spending, etc.). It also communicates a level of trust and togetherness that is lacking if you never have a joint account.

And separate, because you'll want to retain your financial independence and have a certain amount of your finances that are completely under your control. Ideally, you'd only marry a woman who's better with money than you (I've never had a girlfriend who's had debt or wasn't very good with money - this is a big turnoff for me), but in case you did, you'd want to make sure you're keeping an eye on the lion's share of your income and that you're doing something responsible with it and managing it wisely.

Marriage sites: can't say there are... it's never really been a topic of much interest for me, personally! There are probably decent sites out there; I'd guess you just have to look. Often, the best marketing and the best material do not go hand-in-hand.

On emotional association: no, still haven't written a post on that yet. I'll throw it on the post queue. But you don't need empathy for it; I've had women with zero empathy become strongly emotionally associated with me. It happens any time a girl is in love with you, yes, and continues so long as her emotions remain positive toward you. Essentially, it's a connection where she views you as a very "good" and very "valuable" part of her life, who is firmly on "her side." This can flip quite quickly though - especially with women low in empathy, who aren't able to really gauge what you're thinking and only are able to view your actions from their own perspectives and decide on their own if you are "good" or "bad" - and turn into disassociation. Keeping a woman emotionally associated to you is all about having her continue to see you as "good," "on her side," and "valuable." Even if she's empathetic, if you stop being these things, she can still empathize with you, but won't remain terribly associated to you for long.

Chase

Mark's picture

Impossible


I don't know if I read it wrong but I find the following section of the article is a little misleading;

"If you're fine meting out (genuine) praise, are sensitive about not poking people in their sore spots, don't have much of a need for emotional connection, are strong and dominant, are highly self-improvement oriented and on an upward swing in your achievements and skills, are confident and secure and not overly jealous or controlling but still firm and certain in what you want, can at least control yourself around people calling other people "weak," and are good in bed, you should be fine with a narcissistic girlfriend".

No normal man can truly be fine with a narcissistic girlfriend because it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a happy and healthy relationship with a one. They are great for one night stands but not if you are looking for love/to get serious/wife material. It's just impossible to have a long-lasting and loving relationship with a real narcissist (for all the reasons listed in the article). Totally impossible!!!No matter how strong a man is, or fits the description above, after a while the narcissist BS thinking and behaviour is just too much to live with for any man. The only way a man can date a narcissist and avoid getting hurt is to use and not respect them. Essentially not care about her or the outcome and expect it to end.

Anonymous's picture

narcissist on marriage


thanks for ur blog, its really eye opening, i wanted to ask, what about a narcissist that is at that desperate age, to want to get married, do narcissist women want that, and do they become desperate, how would this differ in the way they treat the guy they are with? the guy the specifically target for marriage?
thanks!!!

sxy_vince's picture

Dating narcissistic women


Hi Chase

Thanks for your advice to date. I bought your eBook and have perused the blog and, along with effort on my behalf, I have been having more success with women.

I have slept with a number of girls that are wholesome and intelligent (emotionally and often intellectually as well). When I move things forward with them I feel like there is mutual respect.

I would appreciate some advice on how to date narcissistic women without being insulted and repulsed when they come across as gamey, self-entitled and arrogant "princesses". Here are some examples:

Girl#1: We hung out for a bit but I got sick of her because she would take her time making me wait for her to get ready or get dressed. At one point, she asked if I wanted to meet for coffee - I said yes but on the way there she said "oh you know that you are paying because I don't have any money". I was so repulsed by this I never associated with her again.

Girl#2: She was clearly interested in me, flirting all the time. We hung out for a bit. But on two occasions I asked her to meet me for a drink and she said she was "too busy" when clearly she wasn't. I got sick of that since she was more into me then I was into her. Then she would kind of start chasing me, at once stage almost literally begging me to text her. I hesitated but when I eventually did she started acting like she was "too busy" again.

This is a common dynamic for me. I'm reasonably confident these girls do genuinely like me (perhaps even to the point of obsession) but they seem to have this idea in their heads that because I am a man I should chase them and worship them like a "prize". But since I'm not comfortable with that role nothing ever happens, I get sick of them, and they end up feeling hurt.

Any advice on how to prevent, circumvent, or otherwise deal with these situations? Or do I need to change my perspective?

Anonymous's picture

very impressed with this


very impressed with this article.

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