What’s the Difference Between a Lover and a Loser?


C. Wong posed a question on the article about social value several weeks back, trying to tease out what exactly is the difference between a lover and a loser:

lover vs. loser

Dear Chase,

This is another enlightening post, it clarify a lot of misconceptions that confuse men. I am currently digesting the first 200 pages of your ebook (Prob would take me some time to digest everything...those 400+ pgs have too much concepts and details). Anyway, I have a question on your ebook (and your previous article) regarding to the Lover's Value: http://www.girlschase.com/content/does-she-want-you-boyfriend-or-someth...

I understand your pt that the girl would slow things down with us if she noticed we men have lots of achievements, advance degree, and an admirable career etc because it shows we can be a long term husband candidate.

HOWEVER, what is the difference between "a man who offer lots of Lover's Value" and "a man who is plain loser" ? I am confuse, really confuse! Because somewhere in your ebook and your previous articles, u mentioned that u will only tell your woman that you are a writer/author who travel a lot instead of someone who run a business etc...BUT, THE MOST CRAZY PART is that u will even tell the girl that u are currently unemployed (Or unemployed for a very long time) in order for u to get out of the Provider Category. I think THIS IS INSANE!!

Wouldn't the girl think we are a loser if we say that we are unemployed or have been unemployed for a while? I mean, as a lover, your job is to provide romantic experience to the woman. Your job is to be a good "gene donor" who provide great genes.<--[Please tell me is this sentence and my understanding of your thinking is correct, Chase]

Wouldn't the girl think your genes are in low and bad quality if u tell them that you are unemployed in order to get out of the Lover Category? Wouldn't it make more sense if u tell them that you are a senior level engineer, accountant, doctor, lawyer, or business man BUT u will not stay in one location, you are going back to your home state etc? So she would think that u have good genes to gain resource (thus attractive to u), but too bad, u are not local etc?

Thank you very much Chase! Your ebook definitely worth my time and my money.

Warm Regards

It's an necessary distinction to make, and reaching the point where you HAVE to make this decision is something the average man daren't even try to do... when you haven't raised up your value as a lover high enough, dropping your value as a boyfriend candidate can very quickly leave you with a whole lot of nothing in the dating circuit.

So what is the difference between being a lover... or just being an out-and-out loser?


lover vs. loser

In a follow-up comment to C. Wong's, another commenter suggested that I can inhabit the lover role because I am tall, well-dressed, and affluent-looking. Alternately, in the article of a few days ago, "We Are Not Having Sex Tonight: What Happens When You Don’t", another commenter remarked about how he continually ended up in the boyfriend zone, as he spoke well and women viewed him as a classy man good for a long-term spot - and that taking himself out of contention as a boyfriend simply made the women he met vanish.

Before we start picking things apart here, allow me to tell you about three men...

  • The first man was 20 pounds overweight. He had a noticeable gut; a fat face; and a terrible $12 haircut. This man wore clothes several sizes too big, and they hung about his frame like a child wearing his father's garments. His speech was mumbled and his voice monotone, and his posture was rather bad. His face, usually, was contorted into an angry, off-putting scowl.

  • The next man was also a bit overweight, though dressed in better clothes. He had a prestigious, high-paying position with one of the most respected multinational firms in the world, was well-traveled and worldly, presented himself reasonably well, and struck most women as the perfect future boyfriend or husband.

  • The third man was in shape, and with stylish fashion, a good haircut, and attractive facial hair. His posture was excellent; his body language was solid, and commanding. His voice was clear, articulate, and quite often sensual. His facial expressions and eye contact led to those around him feeling at once both at ease and excited - perhaps even a little intimidated - to be in his presence. Rather than discuss his travels or job, like the second man, this man preferred to talk about himself as little as possible, opting for an air of mystery and intrigue, frequently giving answers implying he did not work and did not fit into any conventional boxes that a woman might want to put him in mentally to more easily categorize him according to her prior experience. He chose instead to remain an enigma.

The first man, needless to say, did not do so well with women. Women either treated him like an angry child who needed his emotions taken care of, or, sometimes, flirted with him, but grew quite cold with him very quickly if he did not respond perfectly, right away... and he never did respond perfectly, right away.

The second man often had difficulty understanding why - since women seemed to like him a good deal - he could not get girls in bed faster, when he knew that many of the women who appeared to like him a lot, and were trying to slow-game him into a relationship, had had plenty of fast sex with other men... but wouldn't have this with him.

The third man had no problems with women - he took them to bed quickly... even the ones who were cagey, had been chaste for years, or had scads of other men in pursuit. If he wanted a girl as a girlfriend, he got her; if he wanted a one-time thing only, well, this was what women expected from him anyway, and it was rarely an issue. He had his pick of the litter, and spent virtually no time worrying about women anymore.

What's the big difference between these three men?


Lover vs. Loser vs. Boyfriend

If you haven't guessed it already, those three men above were me, at various times in my life. No great surprise to longtime readers of the site.

In "What Women Want", we talked about the three roles men can fulfill for women:

  • Friend
  • Lover
  • Provider

I'm going to ignore "friend" as irrelevant to what we're talking about in this article, for the most part; if you're having problems with getting seen as a friend too much with women, you'll want to navigate over to one (or all) of these articles, instead:

When we discuss the provider role here, I'm simply going to refer to that as potential boyfriend or potential husband, for keeping us grounded in what the girl is thinking (she doesn't think, "Ooh, he can provide for me!"; she thinks, "He might make an amazing boyfriend!").

I've never thought of myself as a loser; but then, I doubt there are many people who think of themselves this way. My old tough guy / baggy clothes / inarticulate speech phase probably mostly meets the description, though. Even as a "loser", you can still have SOME reasonably attractive women interested in you... unless you're creepy or totally unappealing, you'll still get shots at women. The girls I had flirting with me back then weren't nearly as pretty as the girls I started getting once I got good, but they were still very okay. However, there weren't nearly as many of them; they had little patience for me not pulling the trigger; and they often only started to like me once they'd seen some of my more redeeming qualities.

When I was the boyfriend candidate, I was constantly trying to be SEEN as the lover, but continually frustrated... why won't these women treat me like a LOVER?! I'd ask. I didn't want to be a boyfriend candidate! I don't want to be your boyfriend, woman! I just want to SLEEP with you! But she didn't want to just sleep with me... if that was all I had to offer, she was fine to look somewhere else.

It took me several years, but I finally transitioned more or less fully to the lover role. Now, finally, for the FIRST time, I actually had women who would sleep with me but who didn't see me as even a potential long-term candidate. It put a huge smile on my face... girls telling me things like, "I know you're not the kind of guy I can be with long-term, but..." It was a complete 180 from the way things traditionally were for me, when women would seed long-term incessantly on dates with me, and be proposing marriage within a few days of first sleeping with me. I'd finally managed to rule myself out as a boyfriend candidate, while ruling myself in as a lover.

lover vs. loser

And I found it easy enough to make the switch back into being the dream long-term partner any time I wanted with a girl; once we were already together, it was a snap to make a few subtle changes and have her going on about how she had me all wrong and I wasn't just some "bad guy."

Indeed.

But being seen as not a "really great guy", if you already mostly have your act together, sometimes is a bigger challenge than you might think.


A Lover is a Loser... with Sex Appeal

One of the feelings I started getting after making the switch from dangerous roughneck to prestigious, well-traveled businessman was that I'd removed some of my teeth. I wasn't edgy anymore; I was too safe.

I actually had more women come on to me during my dangerous guy phase than I did during my post-university businessman phase, even though I was then going out a lot more and meeting women much more aggressively. Part of it was no doubt the loss of the social circle I had back in school... but another large part of it was the fact that I was now a good, solid, safe option for a woman looking for something a little more stable.

It drove me nuts.

On the one hand, I realized that a woman seeing you as boyfriend material is in some ways a compliment; unlike the lover, you're someone she not only wants in her life, but wants to KEEP in her life - the reason she's drawing things out with you and playing things slow is because she doesn't want to blow it.

On the other hand, I also recognized the fact that if a woman slow games you, it's because she thinks she can get away with it, or doesn't care if you bail... the reason why women don't slow game a rock star is because they know they can't. They get one shot, right now, and if they don't take it, he's off to some gal who will.

I didn't want to be the guy women liked for the long-term but felt comfortable slow gaming. I wanted to be the rock star.

But try as I might, I struggled to get there.

Until I realized what the issue was: I was too "great" in too many respects, too stable, not scarce enough... and no longer a "loser" in the right ways.

I had, for all my investment in better stories and learning game, made myself far more dependable, reliable, and predictable - and women know that with dependable, reliable, predictable man, there's no need to hurry, because that man isn't going anywhere.

By his very nature, he sticks around.

I needed to not stick around - and I needed to communicate that I wouldn't up front.


lover vs. loser

"Looking for a new wingman, since my old wingman has left town. I'm about 30 years old, ~150 lays, pretty good with women, but looking to learn from anyone who has something to teach me."

That was a message posted to the San Diego community boards back in 2008, and, while I normally didn't take on as wingmen guys who were involved in the pickup community (I simply found it too difficult to find guys who were both good and normal via the community, except via certain private forums I was on back then), I had been taking on wingmen who were naturally good with women... because those were the guys I could learn from.

And that message positively reeked of someone who's a natural.

So, I met up with the guy, went to a nightclub with him, and right away he had women all over him. They were coming up to him, and telling him how handsome he was... I even had some of them come up to me and say, "Your friend is really handsome." I thought it was hilarious. The girls who were walking up and saying this weren't stunners... they were cute, but that was about it. In my experience, the "reasonably cute" to "nightclub hot" girls are the ones most impressed with men's looks; but, that's often enough to rack up some numbers if you halfway know what you're doing.

The guy wasn't just attractive, though; he was also well-dressed, with a stylish haircut; and was big, muscular, and had a warm-but-vacant-looking expression on his face at all times. He was the kind of guy you felt like could tear you apart if he wanted to... except that he was just too slow, good-natured, and placid to do something like that. He'd put his arm around women easily - that wasn't my style at all, but he certainly used it to good enough effect. He'd buy women drinks; he bought me a drink, and framed it as him looking out for me because he didn't know how much money I had (I had a well-paying job at the time, and plenty of money). He seemed a little over-generous to me, and I soon found out why.

My new wingman had not attended college, and he had never held a job. And he'd fibbed about his age - he was actually closer to 40 than he was to 30. He said all of his girlfriends had broken up with him in a span of about three weeks, so now he no longer had a place to stay; he was sleeping in his rundown old truck for now, until he found a new girl whose place he could crash at.

He told me about his time living in Europe, where he went around the continent for a few years, asking people he met if he could stay at their places when he needed a place to stay, or crashing with women he met.

He told me about his stint in the Philippines, and how crazy it was there and how much he loved Filipinas, and how he'd see people having sex on the bus there, it was so open.

And then, after doing his best to be impressive, he started angling to get stuff from me: to leave all his stuff at my place (I had a tiny apartment that was already overflowing with my stuff); to come and pick him up 40 minutes away because his truck had broken down. And I'd only met the guy once. The generosity had simply been to prime me to be more easily manipulated - people are more inclined to be generous after they've been the recipients of generosity themselves.

I decided not to wing the guy again - he was too good a manipulator, and I didn't want to get stuck - but it was an in-the-flesh illustration for me, once again, of the fact that a lover is often not much more than a loser... with sex appeal.


What Makes a Lover

Strapping good looks aren't a prerequisite, though of course they help if you've got 'em. I've known men with very similar lifestyles to that guy I met in San Diego who were even more prolific than he was and were not what you'd describe as traditionally good-looking - guys who traveled around, bummed off other people, used small amounts of generosity to attain far larger return favors, and easily charmed women into seductions that sometimes led to relationships that brought them food, shelter, new clothes, and expensive gifts.

While I don't recommend you go full loser - don't actually become the guy who just gets good at using people, of course - I do recommend learning from these types: what is it about them that makes women just want to SLEEP with them and THROW them stuff?

Here are men who:

  • Are not employed
  • Are usually transitory / just passing through
  • Are not stable long-term options in the slightest

That looks quite a bit like the men women meet while on vacation, or the no-strings hookups girls have with exotic foreign men just passing through their cities, doesn't it?

Of course, the negatives that make these men not boyfriend material are only one side of the picture. The other side is the positives - these men also are all:

  • Charming
  • Well-presented (great fundamentals)
  • Confident and good with women
  • Very smooth in moving things quickly but comfortably forward

When most people think of someone who's unemployed, transitory, and unstable, they picture a vagrant in tattered clothes, or some kind of backpacker hippie sort.

Take someone like that and put him in great clothes, give him a great haircut, have him stand up straight and tall, give him reams of confidence, and make him smooth with women, though, and now what've you got?

A mystery, an intrigue, and a lover.


Why This is So

Here's the part where most men ask wait a minute - charming, good fundamentals, confidence, smoothness - these are all good things. So shouldn't a woman be even MORE attracted to you if you're ALSO employed, stationary, and STABLE? That's even MORE good stuff!

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Yet, you'd be stuck being every bit as frustrated as I was, back in my "ideal boyfriend" days.

The problem comes from rolling all kinds of value up into the same pot and thinking that all value is created equal, and does the same thing.

But it doesn't.

In the case of boyfriend vs. lover vs. loser, you can think of there being two kinds of value, in fact:

  1. Sexual value, and
  2. Stable value

Sexual value is made up of things like being charming, being attractive, being confident, and being smooth. These are things that make a woman want to go to bed with you.

Stable value is comprised of forms of value like being employed, being employed by a prestigious firm, being firmly planted in a city and having no plans of leaving any time soon, owning an apartment or a home, owning a nice car, being a "good guy", moving slowly and respectfully with women, etc.

How these interact is thus:

  • A loser has neither of these kinds of value, and thus is unattractive to women

  • A lover has merely sexual value, and thus is only attractive to women as a short-term mating option

  • A friend has merely stable value, and thus is only attractive to women as a platonic friend

  • A boyfriend or husband candidate has a mix of sexual and stable value, and thus is the most valuable individual to a woman, and someone women want to hold onto long-term and not mess things up with

Here's an example.

Let's say you met two women. One of these women was just a wild, sensual club girl, dressed in skimpy attire, and with no redeeming value to you aside from her body and her interest in you. How fast do you feel comfortable moving with her? You're probably going to treat it as a "now or never" type of deal, aren't you? Either the two of you are going to sleep together now... or, you're not even going to waste a thought cycle on her tomorrow.

But then, you meet another woman... and this woman is quite attractive and sensual as well, but, as you soon find out, she also has all the qualities you look for in a mate - maybe she's an excellent cook; maybe she's fiercely loyal; maybe she's quiet and submissive, or bold and adventurous. Maybe she has a great job and a great education and her own income stream; or, maybe, she's just getting by, and waiting around for her Prince Charming to come and snatch her from mediocrity and into something great. Whatever it is, she is what you want.

Now how fast do you feel comfortable moving with her?

Quite a different story, isn't it?

The wild club girl you're either going to hook up with, or you're going to forget about.

Miss Right, though - you're going to take it nice and slow, make sure you don't mess up, and make everything on all your dates as perfect as can be.

Well, guess what - women are exactly the same.


Keeping the Sexual, Losing the Stable

Becoming a lover is really about keeping (or getting) the sexual, and dropping the stable.

lover vs. loser

When you have both forms of value, you force a woman to value you more highly... and want you as a long-term partner.

When you're missing one of them, though, you end up in a box: lover (if you're missing stable value) or friend (if you're missing sexual value).

And if you're missing both, you're just some loser.

The mistakes you'll see men making commonly are:

  1. Focusing only on stable value. That's a one-way ticket to the friend zone, but most guys don't realize this because they don't realize there's more than one kind of value. They hear how important it is to have a good job or be a good guy, and assume that if they just do this, it's enough. But then they're only appealing to women from the "he can take care of me” side of the equation, and not the "he can make me wet, make me scream, and make me glow" side of the equation... and they get no consideration for sex as a result (and end up quite frustrated).

  2. Dropping stable value without upping sexual value. The next mistake in line is the guy who realizes he's been shooting himself in the foot by focusing on being too good a provider, and decides to STOP being a provider - without upping his sexual value too. So, he drops the one thing about him that women found attractive - his stability - and replaces it with... nothing. Women then have no interest in him, and disappear.

  3. Trying to be the perfect man. That's what we just talked about above - when a guy's made himself SO amazing that he's... now getting slow-gamed by girls who are afraid of losing him by moving too fast. Dial it down.

If you're in any one of these categories, it's easy to get angry, or frustrated, or annoyed at women. They're fools if they don't see how awesome I am! you think. Well, too bad for them, because if they don't want to move fast with ME, then I'm just GONE and they've LOST their chance! Ha!

But taking on the victim role here doesn't help you any.

It doesn't make you any better with women.

It doesn't train you to better communicate what you want to communicate to them.

It just leaves you high and dry, with a lot of confused women scratching their heads wondering why you seemed like perfect boyfriend material but got ghost after the second date, and you cursing the gods for not blessing you with good looks or height or money or whatever else it is you think women want that you don't have.

So don't be mad. Those girls you cut off for not putting out will just go find someone who does a better job of exciting them and go put out for him, instead. The only person you're hurting if you getting your trousers in a twist is you.

Instead, sit down, read through the articles on disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend:

... read through the articles on getting your nonverbal fundamentals down:

... and read through the articles on creating sexual tension, vibes, and appeal:

These are the tools you need to not just remove your stable value (to uncomplicate a woman's decision-making process and free her to move fast with you), but to build up your sexual value.


James Bond is a Loser

Just look at him.

He's never around. He's always away on travel. He doesn't appear to own a home or have any property. He's a real cad - he never sticks with any one woman for all that long. He's not the kind of guy who's going to listen to all your problems and have a cry with you.

Yet, he's well-dressed. He appears to be well-off. His life seems to be one of adventure, excitement, and continually breaking convention, expectation, and routine. He speaks well, carries himself well, and exudes both power and sensuality. Confidence emanates from him in waves.

All this makes him a very uncomplicated choice for women. The choice with James Bond is sex, or no sex.

There's no worrying about slow gaming things to get him into a relationship.

There's no confusion about whether a girl's going to lose him as a friend if she takes him to bed.

There's only one simple, easy-to-understand, and even easier-to-make decision there: am I going to sleep with him or not?

Wouldn't you rather her have an easy decision to make about you, then a cripplingly hard one that forces her to draw things out needlessly?

So, stop making things so complicated for these poor girls.

Make your and their lives easier - uncomplicate your value to them, and make the choice to sleep with you fast, instead of slow, an easy one.

Best,
Chase Amante

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Comments

Zac's picture

Stable Value


Chase,

Luckily you explain the stable value in full. Part of me not going forward was me, unconsciously reminding myself to be a lover. I was too "into". This article will clear my doubts, and know the distinction.

Btw, i ask if you can roughly gauge where my body language is at from last journal post. Apparently having people turn and look at me all too often can sometimes scare the shit out of me. Women still hesitant to go out with me, and I believe this is like what you said, in this article, I look too stable. I can finally found some distinction.

Zac

Chase Amante's picture

Reactions

Author

Zac-

I'm unable to tell from what you have written here: "AURA"; it could be that you look very impressive, or it could be that you have something about you that really stands out - hair, facial expression, walk, etc. A number of things it could be.

A good rule of thumb is, if women seem nervous but excited around you, and if men seem a little intimidated but curious about you and respectful, your fundamentals are pretty tight.

Chase

Zac's picture

Respect and Fight


Not my hair, not my face (my face looks like Didier Drogba, not exactly too dark. only when i sweat, i am super dark. no racist agenda here.)

Aside that, I think the walk, and facial expression, the walk is superbly all from your articles.

And yea, Women are nervous, for some a negative reaction, must be women who are suppressed sexually, I find some women are that. Some guys are curious and they are cool with me, some more respectful, but there are people wanting to initiate fights. :D

Thanks Chase, I think it's good to be humble like you. I will see where i am now, work at it on different facets, like hair, clothings, walk, bags i carry, fashion. I will alter this in small so as to not mess up the whole complexion.

:)

Zac

Zac's picture

note


I noted it down on my journal, if you have something, let me know. :) I don't mind getting burned by you to the ground. :) As long as i am progressing.

Zac

DAMKY's picture

Great post. Chase, C. Wong IS


Great post.

Chase, C. Wong IS "cwongucd".
BTW, I commented to cwongucd too. this is how I see it. http://www.girlschase.com/content/social-value-and-value-imbalances#comm... :

@cwongucd

Look at this that way:

If you see a really beautiful girl, REALLY amazing looking one, but her personality are not really good (let's say she's really dumb).
You'll probably want her only for sex and not for long-term. You don't care about her profession, if she is unemployed or not.
In this case she is PERFECT for the LOVER ROLE.

Conversely, you see a girl that is so cute, smart, yet look good. She even have advance degree, she even have dream job. Would you want her just for sex? Probably not. You put her in long-term role (Provider, despite the difference).

You probably care more with the second girl (if you are at least intermediate). And you will move slower (what is bad).
That is exactly the same case with girls (though the look play less).

Chase just aim for the LOVER ROLE because with that in mind you can moves faster. That because the girl care less of you (for long-term and more of you for right-now) and she will be less likely to fear of implications.

Be aware, that there are few value forms
LOVER VALUE: socially grace, sexy vibe, playfulness, great-sex etc.
and
PROVIDER VALUE: great job, great profession, money etc.

I think saying you unemployed could be bad if you are just a beginner.
In that case just don't showcase you job if it's too attractive. (if you are senior level engineer just say that you work at some factory)
Saying that you travel is probably the BEST way to disqualify you as PROVIDER ORLE. (that is why it's usually easy to bed girl's in other countries). The question is if you want to lie.

LettucePrey's picture

Walk The Line


As always, great post, Chase.

I have no problem being the lover. My question is: how do I change her perception of me to boyfriend material? I'm looking for a long term relationship now. But the bad boy image seems to be getting in the way a bit.

The girl I've been dating for a couple of months, I took to bed on the first hang out. I knew I wanted more with her as soon as we met (cute, famous, successful, artist) but that's just how I operate, I move quickly always.

It's been a bit rocky at times because she thinks she's just one of many when in fact she is the only one. I go out of my way to be overly-communicative and sweet and loving and all that jazz yet she still acts out and accuses me of being with other women on occasion.

I know you say it's good to always keep a girl guessing in a relationship but she already knows I'm a bad ass. So how do I walk this line? How do I make this transition?

I've never been good at long-term relationships. Always been too aloof and have always slept with other women during them. But I'm ready to grow up a bit and this girl is a total catch so I want to do right by her without over-supplicating and without becoming a bitch. Thoughts?

Chase Amante's picture

Reeling Them In

Author

Lettuce-

This one's usually not too hard, actually. Just ignore the comments she makes about you seeing other women and gradually acquiesce to her desire to spend more and more time with you, depending on what you preference is for the relationship. Design it in a way that she is chasing the relationship and you are gradually yielding - without protest - to her wanting to see you more and be with you more. She'll view this as her winning over the guy she wasn't certain she could. The occasional nice, unexpected gesture from you will blow her socks off, too - "I didn't think he liked me THAT way!" - just don't overdo it to the point where these become commonplace and lose their ability to impress. That's things like telling her you're planning a trip and would she like to come? Or things like you're going to X important event, and if she can fit it into her schedule you'd be honored if she'd join you. Things that gradually rotate her into a more important role in your life, where she can brag to her friends about "Lettuce did THIS with me!" or she can say to herself, "Meeting his best friends? This is a BIG deal! We have official status now!"

Basically, all the things most guys would do with words ("You're now my girlfriend!") you'll do with actions (just treat her like she's your partner in crime).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase, Your posts about


Hey Chase,

Your posts about week on how to get over anxiety issuses and not being able to get hard was great! But, at least once, every man has had the exact opposite problem.

It would be awesome if you could do post on how to last longer in bed! And also how to keep it cool when you do climax too soon.

Chris

Chase Amante's picture

Premature

Author

Anon-

Yep - I have it on the list!

Chase

MCP's picture

Dialing down gracefully


I have a little hang up about the dialing down value issue. Say you actually are very successful but don't want to expressly say what you do for a living, and you give an answer like "what do I look like I do?" When asked. But instead of going along with it, the girl/guy calls you out on it and says something like "what kind of answer is THAT? What do you actually DO?" I find that men are the ones most often to give a response like this and I am currently at a loss for how to respond in a beneficial manner to this one, as men usually do this around other women to try to throw you off. Any suggestions for countering someone who is explicitly set in getting a straight answer out of you? (i.e. not "numbers" or "I do a lot of traveling")?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Dialing down gracefully

Author

MCP-

If you're going to make someone guess, it's a compliance gambit: there's a risk that she refuses to comply, and instead demands that you answer. It's best to gauge how compliant a girl is before challenging her to guess, but if you misread her as a bit more compliant and she won't play ball, you have to stick to your guns and insist she either answer or you're not going into it ("No guessing, no telling! There's no fun in that. Plus I won't learn anything about you that way, either").

With men, well... keep in mind that asking people to guess is something of a flirtation; most men who are straight aren't going to be terribly excited about playing guessing games with another man(!). Here's, it's better to just give a sufficiently straight answer.

You can tell what you do without being specific about it. e.g., if I'm talking with a man and he asks what I do, rather than play the mysterious role, I'll usually just answer something like, "I just do some work on the Internet," which sounds like the most vague, boring, unsuccessful kind of job you could have. Most people seem to picture someone barely scraping by but not completely broke when you say this, and it shuts down 99% of all questions they'll ask after. It isn't one you want to use to generate intrigue, but if you just don't want to let on what you do (I don't really want to explain that I run an Internet dating advice site for men... that either gets you weird looks, or people's eyes lighting up and then comes the flurry of questions, and neither of those are especially helpful to your cause; and if I tell people I'm an entrepreneur, they either think that means I'm an unsuccessful hobo or that I'm Bill Gates, and again, neither are helpful). A successful friend who struggled with talking about work socially I advised to simply say, "I'm a manager," or, "I work on business processes." Both of these sound so generic and dull that no one ever asks anything further, and if they do, you can just describe some boring aspects of your work that destroy any vestigial shreds of curiosity.

So a "straight enough" answer for someone who's probing might look like this - say you run a software as a service business that does $10 million a year in revenues and it's 60% profit, and you've taken no funding and it's just you and your cofounder as the owners, so you're netting a million or two a year after taxes and reinvestment in the business.  Not crazy rich, but you're making more than most of the random people you meet at networking events. Someone asks what you do and is dogged on finding out:

Guy: What do you do?

You: I do some work on software as a service.

Guy: Well, like what, specifically? Do you do the coding? Is it your own business?

You: I handle most of the marketing functions, and a lot of quality control. So, I provide a lot of the content that goes into our press releases and approve them before our publicist sends them out, and I get to go to conferences a few times a year and maybe if I'm lucky they ask me to talk - but usually I'm just a face in the crowd - and I keep tabs on what our coders are pounding away on downstairs. I used to be a bit of a codemonkey, but I burnt out on code a long time ago and had to retire from it. How about you? What do you do?

When you go into detail about your day-to-day activities like this, it usually satisfies the other person's need for details, while also boring him enough that he's now happy to change the topic.

Then, turn the spotlight back on him (and off of you) and ask him what he does, or how he likes his company, then start exploring his answers and diving in.

Chase

Anonymous1's picture

Confusing


Chase,

As much as this is a great article, I'dke some advice.
I don't want to become a too stable guy, but I want improvements in life...as in always upgrading things like my car, my style, my style, getting better at my hobbies and so forth. Yet I read this and want to be a a lover, except without the loser aspect.

All be it the point you stated above, about having a stable job, owning property and so forth, how exactly can you get what you want if you aren't stable to an extent? Is there a way to have lover traits but not be a boyfriend/lover etc? I mean there's more to life in a whole and I don't want. Up doing andhaving nothing just to sleep with women, as that sort of just seems low and manipulative not to mention untrustworthy and lying about things?

Now, after following a lot of these articles on the site. I've greatly improved my life and turned into a fairly successful 24year old, decent job, just paid for a apartment deposit and always improving my physique, personal life and improving my self in general. After reading this article it seems like all that is useless when it comes to women and that if I want decent women I should become the opposite? I'd love to know of a middle ground...

Regards

Chase Amante's picture

Dropping Accomplishments?

Author

Anon-

No, there's no need to drop a lifestyle if you enjoy living it. The main thing to be aware of is that if you let on you you lead too stable a lifestyle, relative to a girl's perceptions of what "stable" is, she's usually going to slow game you.

When I've owned luxury cars, for instance, I'd have women pick me up if we needed to go somewhere, and I simply wouldn't tell them which car was mine when they were in the parking lot. When I had a higher prestige job and realized I did a lot better with girls as a "writer" or an "actor" (both things I was doing at the time) than a "business consultant", I became a writer or an actor who, if she probed, paid the bills with a 9-to-5 while he worked on his dream. It's more about identity in this case: what do you identify as? Women will typically assume that if you don't identify as a "business person", you're probably not making scads of money in business, simply because most of the people who are doing well have identities that match their professions.

Money CAN be used for getting women in bed, but in one specific way: conspicuous consumption. That's things like blowing big wads of cash on things like bottle service, really expensive gifts, needless accoutrements, etc. NOT recommended unless you have the funds to burn through a little money and hardly miss it - but if you can do it, it's a nice plus. I had an investment banker friend who used to buy bottles of champagne at the bar and just offer drinks to every cute girl who walked by, and he'd leave with a girl almost every night, for instance (he also had pretty tight fundamentals and great game - it's not JUST the money, though it helps and gives you a great opener).

Basically, if you want to compete on money, you must have LOTS of money, and throw that money around - otherwise, minimize its importance and keep the spotlight on things you can offer that other men can't: romance, excitement, intrigue, adventure.

There are plenty of guys with decent salaries and a nice car and a nice condo, etc. Unless you've got a Maserati or the penthouse unit, though, you want to minimize competition on things where you're only going to come up middle rank, because those don't win you "exciting sexual man" points.

You can always let her see your car or know about your job after the two of you have already slept together, and then she'll be presently surprised: "Oh! I didn't know you were [X]!" and ends up feeling like she's found a diamond in the rough. Here she was, with you because you were SEXY, but now it turns out you're a great guy TOO - kinda like hitting the jackpot for girls. The man of mystery turns out to be a potential boyfriend or husband after all - it's what every woman fantasizes about.

Chase

Alexio's picture

Approach Anxiety at High school!


Hey Chase,

I've read most of the articles on your website, and I have to say, they helped me out so much. Not only has your advice improved my game, but its also got lots of chicks interested into me, so thank you.

But I seem to have trouble approaching girls, even though I've talked to them a couple of times before. I'm in high school right now, and I really want to know how I can overcome my approach anxiety, because it's really holding me back. I've read your articles on approach anxiety, but I still can't quite make myself talk to those chicks.

Thanks Chase,

Alexio

Anonymous's picture

Just Do It


I'm in HS too and nothing I've read helped my approach anxiety, you just need to show your subconscious that nothing horrible will happen if you talk to girls, and that's something no article was able to do for me.

What did help is forcing myself to do it, you are in full control of your body and voice, even if your scared as hell you are able to talk to the ladies. Just make yourself start and it will become easier and easier, eventually talking to new girls will be natural and fun, with no anxiety at all.

If it helps you can start small, asking a random not-so-pretty girl "Yo, what time is it?" and work your way up to actually working your magic with the girls you want.

That's what I did and not I have basically no "approach anxiety" now.

...But unfortunately my girlfriend(s) have yet to materialize, but at least I'm not too scared to practice now

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Approach Anxiety at High school!

Author

Alexio-

I don't have any experience here myself, but Anonymous sounds like he knows what he's talking about, so I'd start there.

Something I've noticed some of our members on the discussion boards who are still in high school doing is going out to the mall or Wal-Mart or Target or other places like these and meeting girls there - probably if you're out of the more constrictive social circle environment of your high school and out somewhere more anonymous, you'll have an easier time summoning up the courage.

If you want to do it, you'll find a way to do it - the only question is, how bad do you want it?

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Damage Control


Hey! Great article. But sometimes you'll meet a girl through social circle or work or school and she'll inevitably have some sense of how amazing you are. Should we move a little slower on these chicks to avoid scaring them off, or what is the game here? Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Girls in Social Circle

Author

Anon-

In that case, you can often do a lot of what Peter set out in his series on social circle, starting with this article: "Meeting Women via Social Circle: The Pros and Cons."

Barring that though, you can always just settle for date compression - give her the series of dates she wants and expects, just squeeze them into a much tighter window of time: "Having Lots of Dates in Short Amounts of Time."

Chase

uForia's picture

Interesting article but..


I was reading through this, and I was thinking heavily about the wild club girl vs. Miss Perfect. I'm not sure if this is a guy and girl difference thing, but for me personally, I would only do a one-night stand with the wild club girl when it comes to sex, while pursuing a relationship after the sex with Miss Perfect.

If you say girls are just the same with men as well, wouldn't the girl be ambivalent and unwlling to talk to you anymore after having sex with you as a lover? I know I would be (especially as a current student in a rather good and small institution). Of course, this would be an issue post-graduation.

Right now though, the simple fact that I attend this institution probably gives me long term value, so I only have an option to be a boyfriend or a friend. Most likely, everyone has seen each other's faces at least once so I can't pretend to not be in this uni. No first date sex or anything like that. Since this is my only option, how can I give my potential future girlfriend incentive to not get seduced by a lover?

tl;dr Wouldn't girls be ambivalent and unwilling to talk to you anymore after having sex with you as a lover with no potential long term value? I know I would. And, if there's no way I can become a lover, how would I incentivize the girl to not get seduced by another outside lover?

Cheers.

Chase Amante's picture

Sticking Around with the Lover

Author

uForia-

Well, imagine you take that wild club girl home with you. As you go, you notice how sexy she is... how charming and appealing her personality is. When you get her home, she gives you the most mind-blowing night of passion of your entire life. The next morning, she rocks your world again, then gets up and cooks you breakfast. She leaves you with a giant smile on your face, and a pitter-patter in your heart. Even if you KNOW you shouldn't see her again because she's a wild club girl... might you still be tempted to anyway? Maybe just once more? And then, perhaps, after a repeat performance, once more again?

Women are governed much more than their emotions than men are. As the lover, one of your primary focuses is on making her feel the right emotions, so that she's excited, stimulated, and entranced by you. If you couple this with a fantastic ending to the night and reams of good feelings left behind after you're gone, you've just done something for her that most men have no idea how to do, and that hardly ever happens to her - most guys have no idea how to make her feel charmed, romanced, sexed to complete satisfaction, and like all her dreams have just come true.

We you can do that for a girl, it doesn't matter if you seem to check her logical boxes for what she wants or not - she's GOING to see you again.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Friend zoned


Chase there's this girl I like but I've made the mistake of getting in the friendzone I'm deep in the friendzone, but sometimes she flirts with me and I flirt with her alot. People think we're together but were not. But there was one instance where this guy a very dominant lover type of guy would hang around and talk to her. The guy liked her and they would take long walks together and they would hug and stuff like that, but I'm not sure they are dating or not since I've never seen them have PDA.. I still flirt with her and she still flirts with me but I'm not really sure what to do chase. Can you help?

TORNADO's picture

Carefree Attitude


Hey Chase, I just had a quick question. I practically had 3 phases in my life:

A) 14-20 age - I was practically a jerk, hated girls. I had no interest whatsoever. Girls who approached me were downright abused and driven away by me. Sex fascinated me no doubt, but I always loved porn and masturbation more and had the typical teenage male chauvinistic attitude. I remember now, that I used to have quite some girls hit on me but never caught the signals.

2) 20-23 age - Lost the jerkiness. Became a casual guy. Way too casual. Got a lot of female friends but it seemed women took me for granted. I was FRIEND Zoned. I guess from your previous posts I could be classified as the jester here. Had to get rid of this phase.

3) 23-current Age - Arguably my worst phase I think. Powerful and quite dominant. But women for some reason fear me. They are hesitant when they talk to me. And ofcourse as I have mentioned umpteen times, there was this one girl for whom I literally gave my soul and got absolutely nothing. She too says she fears me WTF.

I have a four solid questions and your answers obviously have a huge impact on me. But would still request you to be honest.

1) I am not fat. I am quite normal but I have some tummy. I am dark skinned. But I am kind of losing my hair. Is this going to make it incredibly tough getting women?

2) I am 25 and still a virgin. Even being from India, most of my male friends had sex already when they were 17-18 and I obviously have nothing to talk when they talk about their sexual escapades. They say it that it comes as NO SURPRISE to them that I am still a virgin? When I ask them why they are unable to answer. Do you have any idea?

3) Is it wrong in your books to lose virginity to an escort if someone absolutely cannot control his urges and want to JUST experience what sex is all about?

4) Sorry to say this but I still feel that LOOKS do matter. This is because I had a girl tell me that she thought I was already married. Another girl told me that I look 29 even though I am just 25. Is it because of my Spectacles? or my dress sense? (I have lost the baggy attitude and wear fitting clothes now as per your advice)

OR is it just because I am dark and have a round face and puffed eyes which makes me look old?

After thoroughly reading almost all your articles for almost a year I know I have a not so bad game. FOR SURE I know I am not that terrible. But somewhere something is going wrong and even though I have tried my best, I am just unable to figure it out. Last thing I want is to go into that depression mode again. Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Carefree Attitude

Author

Tornado-

Appearance-wise, dark skin can be a plus or minus depending on the culture you're in, and the women you're going for. Once your fundamentals are extremely solid though, you more or less "transcend" race / skin color. Tummy - less tummy is always good. If you have a little bit, one way to get rid of this is by gradually weaning yourself off certain foods in your diet - e.g., sugars or carbohydrates. You can do this by saying, "I will not have [X] with lunch," and fight through the cravings for a few weeks until it becomes routine, and once you're very comfortable, eliminate it from dinner a few nights out of the week; once comfortable with that, expand to more dinners; etc.

Identifying virgins: people who are virgins tend to be more uptight; they view things as "really big deals" that other people hardly pay attention to; they're more prone to becoming emotional; and there's just a general tension about them, as if there's a giant amount of pent up energy inside that's barely being contained by the cork in the bottle. There's really not a way to get rid of this aside from sex; becoming athletically active seems to help expend some of that energy, but it doesn't go completely away until you're getting laid. Basically, put a guy who's never been in a fight before around a bunch of battle-hardened Marines, and you'll see the same kind of tension and discomfort and "battle virginity" streaming off him in waves, too, or put a guy who's never made much money around a bunch of self-made multimillionaires, and you'll sense the same tension coming off him too. The only way to alleviate that tension is getting a similar level of experience.

I think you generally want to stay away from paid sex until you're more experienced with women to avoid warping your views of women (the guys I know who've had a lot of hookers but little experience with non-paid sex tend to have very fatalistic views about women, and they'll never bother to learn girl skills because it's just too easy for them at that point to pay for it), but getting rid of your virginity might be an exception - then you can really see that it's not such a big deal after all. Do be absolutely sure to use protection, of course.

Looks and age - that can be a hard one to put a finger on, but seriousness vs. smiling / openness is usually a very big one here. People get called "older" most often when they aren't very jovial or light-hearted; conversely, people who are beaming megawatt smiles all over the place and bouncing off the walls with energy get pegged as being 10 years younger than they are much of the time. It's more about energy than anything else - the more excited, youthful energy you put out, the younger you get thought of as (within reason; a bouncing-off-the-walls guy who's 70 might get pegged as 50 or 55, but he won't be pegged as 35).

Even if your game is not terrible, when you're sexually inexperienced you tend to shoot yourself in the foot too much by making things bigger deals than they need to be. e.g., a girl may show interest, but you'll hesitate, because you're not sure if you REALLY want her or not… by the time you decide to make a move, she's gone. Or, you may get somewhere with a girl, but then decide she's really amazing and you really like her, and you start putting too much emotion into things and spook her and she disappears. Happens both ways - when you sleep with very inexperienced women as a more experienced man, these girls will go nuts and scare you away too, because they throw far too much emotion way too fast into things (e.g., just because you slept together, they now think you're destined to grow old together).

If your game is okay, and your fundamentals are okay, if you can shed some of that inexperience and get a few lays under your belt, you'll probably start seeing some breakthroughs happen and more rapid evolution.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase Are you saying that


Hey Chase

Are you saying that being better looking makes you a better candidate for a short term partner?

There should be a website like girls chase for girls,to teach them how to act and male/female dynamics especially in America where the gender role lines seem to be blurred.

Don't you think that women should also work on their fundamentals and their behavior,and learn not to send men into auto rejection with their aloofness? They should learn that masculine traits and mannerisms aren't attractive to the opposite sex,that being competitive with men is a turnoff to the the vast majority of men.

Chase Amante's picture

Looks and Short-Term, and Game for Girls

Author

Anon-

Absolutely - looks is one of the key factors in short-term mating. I covered the full gamut in this article: "How Much Do Looks Matter for Romantic Success?" The full list is:

  • Looks
  • Confidence
  • Perceived physical dominance
  • Preselection
  • Conspicuous consumption
  • Not being a boyfriend candidate

The more of those you have going on, and the tigther you have them on lock, the easier it is for you to pick up women for quick flings and fast casual encounters.

On game for girls - yeah, that one's tough. If you go out to nightclubs, for instance, you'll largely find the middle-of-the-pack individuals there, both males and females. Everyone gets dressed up to make herself as attractive as can be, but the really beautiful girls with good lives and good prospects and the really attractive guys with great careers and social lives don't often set foot in nightclubs, and these are the people who usually have the best social skills, too. So what you get in a lot of high density "show off" places are people who are less socially skilled, but have stronger needs to show how "cool" they are, frequently by climbing the social ladder and dismissing others / backstabbing / strutting about acting superior. Ironically, the people they all really want to be like don't do these things.

The competitiveness of Western women I think is a result of taking part in a male-built, male-driven workforce - women simply have to masculinize to be able to compete. I talked about this more here if you haven't read it: "Conflict Between Men and Women in the 21st Century." I don't know that there's an easy solution for it, really - a woman in today's world needs to be almost an impossible mix of masculine in the workplace and feminine in the social arena... I don't envy women that mismatch.

Most just choose one - the really pretty girls stay out of the high-octane male work world, or have jobs on the periphery, and simpy marry attractive, successful men who support them; the less attractive ones view employment as a means to elevate themselves and, they imagine, enhance their mating prospects, but turn themselves into less attractive versions of what they could be in the process (and frequently end up romantically frustrated in their 30s). It's not really their faults, actually - they get some pretty misguided direction from the talking heads in the media and the advertisers who just want to sell them stuff, just like Western men do. The cream of the crop of both genders is always going to ignore these messages and debates and do what men have always done and women have always done, but the people in the middle and bottom who aren't getting what they want get pulled every which way by those promising to sell them "a solution."

Chase

Troy's picture

long term relationships and getting over mistakes


Chase
Ive been thinking about this for a while now and its good to now see an article on it.
However i still dont get the part that if a guy is obviously well off financially wise, how does he avoid this. I am just 17 years old and by no means working. i want to do big things with my life and be financially well off. For me right now i just want to learn how to get girls and have a few lays and casual relationships. however, in the future i want to have a long term relationship with a girl i really love. it is not always possible to not show myself as a provider. lets say that i carry a girl home and my house looks like a palace and i have a nice car, when a girl sees this she slow games me. So how do i enjoy what life (cars, nice houses, my fame and looking great) has to offer and still get girls without having to suffer any side effects?
2) Also chase id love to see an article on how to see failure as not bad, to love the plateau and not let setbacks stop us from pushing the times of doubt and uncertainty. Thanks and im looking for that when you can do it and it interests you as a topic for a post. The reason is because i see it in myself and almost every girls chase reader of not accepting that they will make mistakes and it makes me think. I think that if you could write on this that us readers us readers would accept failure especially beginners as essential, then every one of us would stop beating up our selves when we lose a girl and make mistakes, and then you may not need to ever be getting complaints again. then life changes. It is great to try our best but no one is perfect and we will mess up. thanks for helping and reading. From your dedicated reader,
Troy

Chase Amante's picture

Success and Failure

Author

Troy-

See my response to Anonymous's comment "Confusing" up above (here, if you want the quick link) - he had basically the same question as you on what happens when you're financially successful.

Failure's an interesting one, yeah. I'll put that down as a post. Failure's hardest at the beginning of learning any new skill, where when you fail it really pounds home how far you are from the success of those you see at the opposite end of the spectrum. However, once you push through that and force yourself to continue on with something, and you begin to see results and changes taking hold, it becomes less and less of a problem, and more and more of an, "Okay, here's something else I need to work on more," type of deal.

But, I'll do a post on it.

Chase

V's picture

How to get beautiful girls


Hey chase, ive been doing what you say about sleeping with girls that aren't your standards to get more experience. But I want to know how do I get beautiful pretty girls? What should I do to get them and how do I get them? All the pretty girls I see always have a bf or I see them on tv and magazines. I want to get over the sleeping with girls under your standards part and sleep with the very pretty girls guys chase after and spend alot of money on, I just dont want to do that.

I appreciate it chase.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: How to get beautiful girls

Author

V-

See this article - it's all about exactly this: "What’s Different When You Talk to a Hot Girl?"

Chase

Evan's picture

Wouldn't the best lover be a


Wouldn't the best lover be a combination of lover, friend, and provider? If a woman had a choice of two guys hitting on her; one well rounded, the other purely lover you have to believe she'd go for the combo. Right?

Chase Amante's picture

Best Lover

Author

Evan-

Depends on the differences between the two guys. You want balance, but if her read is that you're a super amazing combination of friend-lover-provider and she'd like a relationship with you, whereas the other guy is sexy and attractive like you but doesn't have all that relationship potential, she's most likely to slip you her phone number and tell you to give her a call, then slip out the back door with the other guy when nobody's paying attention for a discrete night of hot, raw passion.

Basically, the more non-lover elements you mix in, the slower she's going to take things with you prior to the commencement of intimacy.

Once you're in a long-term relationship together, you absolutely want to be the combination of friend-lover-provider, however; maintaining a good balance with all these traits is essential to not having her blow up for want of needs not met.

Chase

Knight's picture

Loser


"James Bond is a loser" I must admit made me laugh.

Yesterday I found a preview on YouTube of your spellbinding video. In the video you have messy hair and are not particularly interested. I feel this is the way I should be talking to beautiful women - is it?

Chase Amante's picture

Messy Hair and Uninterested

Author

Knight-

Yes - the vaguely interested, mostly uninterested vibe is something very much worth cultivating... women who are used to men hanging on their every words go crazy about this, especially when you are paying enough attention that you're actively listening and showing them you're hearing what they say, but they're not eliciting the kind of emotional reaction of excitement and nervousness and intimidation they're accustomed to eliciting with most men.

On the messy hair - that hairstyle was one I was given by one of the top stylists in San Diego, and helped me go from getting my picture ratings to go from 7s and 8s on a ratings website to 9s and 10s, along with helping me start getting much warmer initial reactions from women and more receptivity to my advances. The messiness on the top is designed to add height; tall hair makes you literally look taller, which enhances attraction. The swept over bangs are a trendy / attractive look in hair right now. You also generally want some degree of messiness; take how your hair looks after sex, and try to style your hair that way, and women find it very attractive in a very primal way (same as you do when seeing a woman with "after sex" hair).

Chase

The M's picture

Clumsiness and setting at ease


Hi Chase,

For some reason I have an above average tendency to walk into things/people, trip over stuff, and step on people's toes (literally). Do you have some advice for being less clumsy? :) I feel silly even typing this, but I have this problem whenever there's a lot on my mind (which is most of the time).

I realized that my weakest point when meeting new girls is setting them at ease. I think my non-verbals are alright, so I think it's my conversation. For instance, when I'm dancing with a girl, I'm not sure what to say to make her more relaxed - if she says something interesting, then I can do something with that, but if she's quiet, I'm quiet. What are some simple verbal ways to set her at ease in the beginning and get her talking (without asking questions)? I can banter/voice my thoughts a bit, but often she doesn't say much back and then I'm not sure where to go. I've read your articles on banter but am kind of stuck. Sorry for rambling - hope that was clear.

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Clumsiness and setting at ease

Author

M-

Try walking slower for your clumsiness. Part of the reason I initially moved to walking slower was because I didn't like tripping on things; once I was moving more slowly, it became nearly impossible for me to trip or walk smack into things. You also get a lot more time to react if you start stepping on someone's foot before you put the full weight of your body down than you will when moving more quickly.

On putting women at ease, if a girl is tense and not talking, you usually won't make her more relaxed by talking. Focus instead on what you can do nonverbally to make quiet women comfortable. Things include putting your fingers into the corners of your mouth to raise your mouth in a smile (jokingly telling her to smile); taking her hand and twirling her around, then pulling her close and looking at her seductively, then pushing her away and looking at her playfully on the dance floor; taking her hand and examining a ring or bracelet she has on, then looking at her both warmly and quizzically after you do; and doing the "slow spreading into a laugh" smile, which is where you start very slowly spreading the kind of smile you have where you're just about to laugh... it's almost impossible for women to avoid breaking out into a smile when you do this one right while staring dead into their eyes. After a few quiet moments of playfulness, you can then start talking to her again, and she'll usually be more open.

Chase

cwongucd's picture

Advice on Seducing Sugar Mama


Dear Chase,

I didn't expect you would write an article on a question that I asked you in the past. Thank you very very much Chase, this is my honor. I know you are a very busy man running a business. Thus, it is my honor that my question can get enough attention from you to actually write an article about it. Again, thank you! I feel honor.

Chase, I am just wondering is there a way to find a Sugar Mama? The reason why I am asking is because I am interested in nerdy women who have Master or phD in the Science, Tech, Engineering, and Math (STEM) field. Girls who have MBA,MD, or JD are great too. (Or Master/phD candidates who is going to obtain those degrees. Potential/Future Sugar Mama)
I researched a little bit and found an article like this:

[ http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/170_dating_advice.html ] <-- Getting Sugar Mama

The link above is not too helpful because it doesn't give enough details, it's too general. Well, but at least MUCH BETTER than women's counter-productive advices, LOL.

[http://www.girlschase.com/content/dating-advice-men-why-not-get-it-women] <-- This article is exactly the reason why it made me believe in you 100% and start buying your ebook. My 1st Enlightenment.

However, One detail in the Sugar Mama article above helped a bit. The detail that helped is that in general: Sugar Mama want a lover (a man who offers lover's values) who makes them feel young again.

I am not surprise that these Sugar Mama are willing to spend $$ on lovers if he offer good sex because they have resource themselves, so they are not rushing to get a provider. They want good sex and contagious lively energy because basically this is desirable to ALL women. THESE ARE LOVER'S VALUES. I know the reason why younger women prefer an older man who is the combination of "provider" and "lover" (Or sometimes the guy is just an unexciting provider because most women have to take whatever they can get, THIS IS NOT A FAIRY TAIL, THIS IS REALITY) is because younger women usually don't have resource, that's it. Simple idea.

I am interested to see do you have any advices and step by step strategies on getting Sugar Mama since somewhere in your other articles, you admit that you have dated many girls who have advance degree such as Master.

Thank you very much!

Warm Regards

C Wong

C. Wong

Chase Amante's picture

Sugar Mamas

Author

C-

Well, for older women in general, I'd recommend a scan of this post: "Younger Men and Older Women."

For women inclined to be sugar mamas specifically, you'll find that some of these women spend time in lounges and nightclubs (usually those with mixed demographics - younger and older); occasionally you can find "cougar dens" that are predominantly flashy older women and much younger men. There was a nightclub I visited in Del Mar (near San Diego) that's since closed down, but while it was open it was chock full of women in their 40s and 50s with better bodies (many that were surgically enhanced) than those in their 20s and 30s, dressed VERY sexy, who were mostly all dancing with or flirting with or going home with young men. You can also meet women like this on the street - obviously, you'll want to look for somewhat older women, usually either who are dressed nice and shopping alone, dressed in business attire and off to work, or dressed in gym clothes - women who fall into the "sugar mama" category are more focused on themselves, their workouts, and their careers than they are on relationships or family, and you can see the signs of these different priorities in their dress and behavior.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

So true


1) Chase, is it best to tell a girl that you are unemployed, travel a lot, don't have much money, or for her to decide these things for herself by the way you act etc?

2) Am I correct with my understanding that whilst becoming the love first allows you quick sex but also allows you to transition yourself towards the provider/relationship role more smoothly, thus making pretty much whatever you want from a girl easier to get and more effective?

3) Can you, and is it still best to, maintain this kind of traveling, mysterious enigma once you are older, and dealing with younger girls? I'm sure you mentioned somewhere that you should change things slightly in how you portray yourself past a certain age. However I can't see how displaying yourself this way will ever stop creating that lover image regardless of age, it seems like such a potent way of delivering that message 'Iam not long term material'

4) sorry I be you've answered these a thousand times but if you could just recap. Best way of doing about dealing with a girl saying the following:
A) I love you/do you love me
B) maybe we should start going out etc
C) are you a player

Thanks chase.

Chase Amante's picture

The Lover's Mystique

Author

Anon-

What you're going for generally is implication; you'd say, "I haven't worked in years," or, "Oh yeah, people work - I forgot about that," rather than, "I'm unemployed." The only time you'd state something outright is if your presentation clearly refutes this; e.g., telling her with a grin, "Are you kidding? I'm dead broke," while you stand before her in clearly expensive clothes, looking clean, tidy, and presentable.

With women, the most important thing is getting to sex, so yes - being the lover ups your chances of taking a girl as a girlfriend or wife, because before you can have her as either of these things, you MUST be sleeping with her, and the most consistent path to intimacy is the path of the lover. Most men who need advice to become lovers generally have no problem transitioning to the boyfriend or husband role if they want it; they just let their other selves start poking through. The only guys who struggle with this are the ones who've ALWAYS been lovers, and who women NEVER think of as boyfriends or husbands - those are the guys who really have difficulty moving from one to the next, because they haven't learned how to be a boyfriend or husband and that isn't their "natural" role.

You can still maintain the traveling, mysterious image to some extent while older, but you must be established. So a good version of this might be the guy touring Europe who owns a business back in the States and has his own large home and small boat, and stays in nice hotels and eats at nice restaurants while in the continent. He can still play the role of the lover, because his established wealth is not here, and he is not remaining here, but it's important that you be established in some way at that age - the older you get, the higher the expectation is that you've "already made it", and if you can't meet that expectation, women will generally be less attracted to you than they'd otherwise be (including for the lover role). The older men I've seen still playing the lover role in their own cities have largely still given hints of being successful, while also claiming to not work that much and living in small-ish apartments. My suspicion here is the girl thinks he's successful, but can't quite tell, and if he's otherwise sexy and youthful in his energy, she'll consent to fast intimacy.

On "do you love me" - see this: "What to Say to "I Love You"." On "maybe we should start going out", answer with "Yeah, maybe" and change the topic, or "What makes you say that?" and follow up her answer with a "Hmm." On whether you're a player, just ask her, "What do YOU think?"

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Move.


Eye-opening article here Chase,

However, I have a small issue I'm unable to get around. How do you move the interaction further with girls in a high-school setting. With logistics as bad is mind, living with under strict parents who freak out on the prospect of dating. Must I wait until a social event? At the cost of these girls attraction expiry date. Or try and escalate in school... If the latter, how would you go about it?

Chase Amante's picture

Escalation

Author

Anon-

I don't personally have experience with girls in high school, but you might try some unconventional logistics, if you can swing it: see "Book Excerpts: Get Girls in Bed (Without a Bed)" and "Sex Logistics: How to Get Intimate in Unusual Places."

Chase

Anonymous's picture

What triggers girl's walls?


Chase,
can you give me a few examples of triggers that activate women's walls? It seems to me that since i've upgraded a few fundamentals,especially posture and fashion,that i've ran into more walls with women.When you upgrade your sexiness overall does that cause more women to fear intimacy with you?Also,I think it was in the mixed messages article,where a point was made that most of the aloofness girls give you is a reaction to the way they perceive your actions.But many times ive ran into aloofness with girls right of the bat,right after a sexy smile from me,and other flirting signals.What are the most common causes for this initial aloofness? Im guessing shyness,or simple disinterest could be the case at times,but other times im completely perplexed by the aloofness,especially when ive made my intentions known (subtly and directly) and I have a hunch that the girl is interested,but she doesn't seem like the shy type.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: What triggers girl's walls?

Author

Anon-

Walls go up as a reaction to perceived low attainability on your part. This can be because of something you've done, or because you look like you're out of a girl's league (too attractive / well-dressed / confident / sexy / too full of yourself / etc.), or because she's in an environment where she's being bombarded with men who are not interested in what she wants and are merely trying to use her for what they want (e.g., the flashy girl being hit on relentlessly in a nightclub - her walls go up very high because she perceives that every man there is trying to dump his sperm in her without offering her anything she wants - like a great experience, a great connection, or a passionate, mesmerizing night - in return).

When you're running into walls on opening, that's usually some mix of how you come across and the environment you're meeting women in. The more you can tone down your openers and come in natural, conversational, effortless, and low key, the less you're going to run into walls, because women will feel increasingly comfortable and familiar with you. You can also use certain facial expressions to take the edge off, and I'd also recommend the article on humbleness, especially if you're reaching the point with fundamentals where you are out of most women's leagues. Also see the one on auto-rejection.

Chase

Jonathan's picture

How to get out of loser status


This article spurred my interest because I definitely fall into the loser category and wanted to see how to get out of it. But this article seems geared towards those who are too high value but need to take it down a notch. What's worse is that I'm a "stable loser," maybe a category unique to myself and probably the least attractive state for any guy to be in. What I mean by stable loser is that I'm 32, not that great looking, have a low income apartment out in the middle of nowhere, no job, no badass skills, no social savvy etc. but I'm also not going anywhere; I'm not a vagrant hippy, I have a son and I'm only surviving off of the system which pretty much forces me to stay in one place or I'll be literally living on the streets. Not really looking to just call it quits though even if I am a hopeless case. Is there any advice or articles you can recommend for me, obviously I need a lot of help!
Thanks Chase

Chase Amante's picture

Getting out of loser status

Author

Jonathan-

Yeah, it's awful hard when you're trapped. I'd probably recommend you focusing on getting a degree of financial (and locational) freedom before you worry too much about women - for that, you'll need to start developing a monetizable skill. Probably the easiest to recommend if you're in one place, have Internet, and plenty of time on your hands is learning a programming language like Rails or Django - Rails, for instance, is one of the most in-demand programming languages right now (average household income for a Ruby on Rails developer in 2013 is $98,238.74, according to Ben Podgursky), it's reasonably straightforward to achieve a base level of proficiency with in a matter of months (great tutorial here: Ruby on Rails Tutorial), and because it's so popular with a lot of new tech firms starting now and that have started over the past few years, it's likely to be a popular language for years to come. Once you have skill building web apps, you'll be able to get a high paying job, or get all the remote freelancing work you want to live anywhere in the world and still pay the bills, or join a startup company, or create your own startup. And once you have money coming in and aren't restricted to living in the middle of nowhere, you'll be able to relocate to a much nicer city, revamp your wardrobe, get a better hairstyle, hit the gym, or maybe even do some traveling (or relocate abroad altogether).

For general skill-building, I'd recommend this article to get familiar with the learning process: "How to Master Anything."

Chase

lucifer's picture

Becoming a developer: what a new open door!


Thanks Chase, you opened up a door I had never thought of with that comment on reaching a basic level of Ruby on Rails in a matter of months.

I'm not trapped anywhere and still have quite some money to go, but that might not last for ever as I can't find a job where I can play my "softer skills" strengths of communication, presentation etc.

I've never seen myself as a tech-guy and never wanted to become one, but there's such a huge demand for developers in the market that indeed for the first time I actually see it as a possible and viable fall back option should all else fail!

Marc's picture

first chance only


Hi Chase. One VERY IMPORTANT question regarding women who wants to slow-game you. If you are not sexy loser, and she knows it ( social circle girls ), so she knows that you are well acomplished man, finished great school, god job, respected etc what is the best way, ( subtle, aggresive or whatever ) or better say most efficient way to make it perfectly clear to her that you wont tolerate slow-gaming, that you are "rock star" so if she wants you in her life she must sleep with you right away, she has only one chance, and if she doesnt -you are GONE, going to some girl who will take that one chance.
Thanks in advance.

Chase Amante's picture

Being Slow Gamed

Author

Marc-

Rather than fight against the girl's frame of "things must move slow", I'd usually suggest in this case you just give her what she wants - a series of dates - only, compressed into a short span of time - you can read this article on doing this: "Having Lots of Dates in Short Amounts of Time."

If you DON'T want to do that, and you're really a one-shot only kind of guy, you MUST have some kind of reason she can understand or get behind, and it must mesh with your behavior. If for instance you tell her you're super busy and tonight's date with her is probably the only time you're going to have free for a while, but she sees you twice a week socially, she's going to view it as some kind of ploy and read it more as an emotional insecurity ("If girls don't want to have sex with me quickly, who needs THEM?!") than genuine scarcity, and not go for it.

If you're not genuinely scarce with your social circle, the only way you can build genuine scarcity in with social circle girls is getting them chasing after you, then being aloof for a while. e.g., she tells you the two of you should get lunch sometime, and you say, "Yeah, totally!" then never follow up. She asks another time, and you ask her to send you a text; you agree to a time, then flake on the date. Finally after a while of her chasing, you schedule something, and never discuss exactly why you're so hard to pin down. In that case, you've established romantic/sexual scarcity despite social availability (she'll assume you must be seeing other women or have a girlfriend, which moves you out of the "boyfriend candidate" role by default).

Chase

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