C. Wong posed a question on the article about social value several weeks back, trying to tease out what exactly is the difference between a lover and a loser:
This is another enlightening post, it clarify a lot of misconceptions that confuse men. I am currently digesting the first 200 pages of your ebook (Prob would take me some time to digest everything...those 400+ pgs have too much concepts and details). Anyway, I have a question on your ebook (and your previous article) regarding to the Lover's Value: http://www.girlschase.com/content/does-she-want-you-boyfriend-or-someth...
I understand your pt that the girl would slow things down with us if she noticed we men have lots of achievements, advance degree, and an admirable career etc because it shows we can be a long term husband candidate.
HOWEVER, what is the difference between "a man who offer lots of Lover's Value" and "a man who is plain loser" ? I am confuse, really confuse! Because somewhere in your ebook and your previous articles, u mentioned that u will only tell your woman that you are a writer/author who travel a lot instead of someone who run a business etc...BUT, THE MOST CRAZY PART is that u will even tell the girl that u are currently unemployed (Or unemployed for a very long time) in order for u to get out of the Provider Category. I think THIS IS INSANE!!
Wouldn't the girl think we are a loser if we say that we are unemployed or have been unemployed for a while? I mean, as a lover, your job is to provide romantic experience to the woman. Your job is to be a good "gene donor" who provide great genes.<--[Please tell me is this sentence and my understanding of your thinking is correct, Chase]
Wouldn't the girl think your genes are in low and bad quality if u tell them that you are unemployed in order to get out of the Lover Category? Wouldn't it make more sense if u tell them that you are a senior level engineer, accountant, doctor, lawyer, or business man BUT u will not stay in one location, you are going back to your home state etc? So she would think that u have good genes to gain resource (thus attractive to u), but too bad, u are not local etc?
Thank you very much Chase! Your ebook definitely worth my time and my money.
It's an necessary distinction to make, and reaching the point where you HAVE to make this decision is something the average man daren't even try to do... when you haven't raised up your value as a lover high enough, dropping your value as a boyfriend candidate can very quickly leave you with a whole lot of nothing in the dating circuit.
So what is the difference between being a lover... or just being an out-and-out loser?
In a follow-up comment to C. Wong's, another commenter suggested that I can inhabit the lover role because I am tall, well-dressed, and affluent-looking. Alternately, in the article of a few days ago, "We Are Not Having Sex Tonight: What Happens When You Don’t", another commenter remarked about how he continually ended up in the boyfriend zone, as he spoke well and women viewed him as a classy man good for a long-term spot - and that taking himself out of contention as a boyfriend simply made the women he met vanish.
Before we start picking things apart here, allow me to tell you about three men...
The first man was 20 pounds overweight. He had a noticeable gut; a fat face; and a terrible $12 haircut. This man wore clothes several sizes too big, and they hung about his frame like a child wearing his father's garments. His speech was mumbled and his voice monotone, and his posture was rather bad. His face, usually, was contorted into an angry, off-putting scowl.
The next man was also a bit overweight, though dressed in better clothes. He had a prestigious, high-paying position with one of the most respected multinational firms in the world, was well-traveled and worldly, presented himself reasonably well, and struck most women as the perfect future boyfriend or husband.
The third man was in shape, and with stylish fashion, a good haircut, and attractive facial hair. His posture was excellent; his body language was solid, and commanding. His voice was clear, articulate, and quite often sensual. His facial expressions and eye contact led to those around him feeling at once both at ease and excited - perhaps even a little intimidated - to be in his presence. Rather than discuss his travels or job, like the second man, this man preferred to talk about himself as little as possible, opting for an air of mystery and intrigue, frequently giving answers implying he did not work and did not fit into any conventional boxes that a woman might want to put him in mentally to more easily categorize him according to her prior experience. He chose instead to remain an enigma.
The first man, needless to say, did not do so well with women. Women
either treated him like an angry child who needed his emotions taken
care of, or, sometimes, flirted with him, but grew quite cold with him
very quickly if he did not respond perfectly, right away... and he
never did respond perfectly, right away.
The second man often had difficulty understanding why - since women seemed to like him a good deal - he could not get girls in bed faster, when he knew that many of the women who appeared to like him a lot, and were trying to slow-game him into a relationship, had had plenty of fast sex with other men... but wouldn't have this with him.
The third man had no problems with women - he took them to bed quickly... even the ones who were cagey, had been chaste for years, or had scads of other men in pursuit. If he wanted a girl as a girlfriend, he got her; if he wanted a one-time thing only, well, this was what women expected from him anyway, and it was rarely an issue. He had his pick of the litter, and spent virtually no time worrying about women anymore.
What's the big difference between these three men?
Lover vs. Loser vs. Boyfriend
If you haven't guessed it already, those three men above were me, at various times in my life. No great surprise to longtime readers of the site.
In "What Women Want", we talked about the three roles men can fulfill for women:
I'm going to ignore "friend" as irrelevant to what we're talking about in this article, for the most part; if you're having problems with getting seen as a friend too much with women, you'll want to navigate over to one (or all) of these articles, instead:
- Just Friends: A Man's Worst Nightmare
- How to Get Out of the Friend Zone: A Man's Survival Guide
- Are We Just Friends? Does She Like Me Back
When we discuss the provider role here, I'm simply going to refer to that as potential boyfriend or potential husband, for keeping us grounded in what the girl is thinking (she doesn't think, "Ooh, he can provide for me!"; she thinks, "He might make an amazing boyfriend!").
I've never thought of myself as a loser; but then, I doubt there are
many people who think of themselves this way. My old tough guy / baggy
clothes / inarticulate speech phase probably mostly meets the
description, though. Even as a
"loser", you can still have SOME reasonably attractive women interested
in you... unless you're creepy or totally unappealing, you'll still
get shots at women. The girls I had flirting with me back then weren't
nearly as pretty as the girls I started getting once I got good, but
they were still very okay. However, there weren't nearly as many of
they had little patience for me not pulling the trigger; and they often
only started to like me once they'd seen some of my more redeeming
When I was the boyfriend candidate, I was constantly trying to be SEEN as the lover, but continually frustrated... why won't these women treat me like a LOVER?! I'd ask. I didn't want to be a boyfriend candidate! I don't want to be your boyfriend, woman! I just want to SLEEP with you! But she didn't want to just sleep with me... if that was all I had to offer, she was fine to look somewhere else.
It took me several years, but I finally transitioned more or less fully to the lover role. Now, finally, for the FIRST time, I actually had women who would sleep with me but who didn't see me as even a potential long-term candidate. It put a huge smile on my face... girls telling me things like, "I know you're not the kind of guy I can be with long-term, but..." It was a complete 180 from the way things traditionally were for me, when women would seed long-term incessantly on dates with me, and be proposing marriage within a few days of first sleeping with me. I'd finally managed to rule myself out as a boyfriend candidate, while ruling myself in as a lover.
And I found it easy enough to make the switch back into being the
dream long-term partner any time I wanted with a girl; once we were
already together, it was a snap to make a few subtle changes and have
her going on about how she had me all wrong and I wasn't just some "bad guy."
But being seen as not a
"really great guy", if you already mostly have your act together,
sometimes is a bigger challenge than you might think.
A Lover is a Loser... with Sex Appeal
One of the feelings I started getting after making the switch from dangerous roughneck to prestigious, well-traveled businessman was that I'd removed some of my teeth. I wasn't edgy anymore; I was too safe.
I actually had more women come on to me during my dangerous guy phase than I did during my post-university businessman phase, even though I was then going out a lot more and meeting women much more aggressively. Part of it was no doubt the loss of the social circle I had back in school... but another large part of it was the fact that I was now a good, solid, safe option for a woman looking for something a little more stable.
It drove me nuts.
On the one hand, I realized that a woman seeing you as boyfriend material is in some ways a compliment; unlike the lover, you're someone she not only wants in her life, but wants to KEEP in her life - the reason she's drawing things out with you and playing things slow is because she doesn't want to blow it.
On the other hand, I also recognized the fact that if a woman slow games you, it's because she thinks she can get away with it, or doesn't care if you bail... the reason why women don't slow game a rock star is because they know they can't. They get one shot, right now, and if they don't take it, he's off to some gal who will.
I didn't want to be the guy women liked for the long-term but felt comfortable slow gaming. I wanted to be the rock star.
But try as I might, I struggled to get there.
Until I realized what the issue was: I was too "great" in too many respects, too stable, not scarce enough... and no longer a "loser" in the right ways.
I had, for all my investment in better stories and learning game, made myself far more dependable, reliable, and predictable - and women know that with dependable, reliable, predictable man, there's no need to hurry, because that man isn't going anywhere.
By his very nature, he sticks around.
I needed to not stick around - and I needed to communicate that I wouldn't up front.
"Looking for a new wingman, since my old wingman has left town. I'm about 30 years old, ~150 lays, pretty good with women, but looking to learn from anyone who has something to teach me."
That was a message posted to the San Diego community boards back in 2008, and, while I normally didn't take on as wingmen guys who were involved in the pickup community (I simply found it too difficult to find guys who were both good and normal via the community, except via certain private forums I was on back then), I had been taking on wingmen who were naturally good with women... because those were the guys I could learn from.
And that message positively reeked of someone who's a natural.
So, I met up with the guy, went to a nightclub with him, and right away he had women all over him. They were coming up to him, and telling him how handsome he was... I even had some of them come up to me and say, "Your friend is really handsome." I thought it was hilarious. The girls who were walking up and saying this weren't stunners... they were cute, but that was about it. In my experience, the "reasonably cute" to "nightclub hot" girls are the ones most impressed with men's looks; but, that's often enough to rack up some numbers if you halfway know what you're doing.
The guy wasn't just attractive, though; he was also well-dressed, with a stylish haircut; and was big, muscular, and had a warm-but-vacant-looking expression on his face at all times. He was the kind of guy you felt like could tear you apart if he wanted to... except that he was just too slow, good-natured, and placid to do something like that. He'd put his arm around women easily - that wasn't my style at all, but he certainly used it to good enough effect. He'd buy women drinks; he bought me a drink, and framed it as him looking out for me because he didn't know how much money I had (I had a well-paying job at the time, and plenty of money). He seemed a little over-generous to me, and I soon found out why.
My new wingman had not attended college, and he had never held a job. And he'd fibbed about his age - he was actually closer to 40 than he was to 30. He said all of his girlfriends had broken up with him in a span of about three weeks, so now he no longer had a place to stay; he was sleeping in his rundown old truck for now, until he found a new girl whose place he could crash at.
He told me about his time living in Europe, where he went around the continent for a few years, asking people he met if he could stay at their places when he needed a place to stay, or crashing with women he met.
He told me about his stint in the Philippines, and how crazy it was there and how much he loved Filipinas, and how he'd see people having sex on the bus there, it was so open.
And then, after doing his best to be impressive, he started angling
to get stuff from me: to
leave all his stuff at my place (I had a tiny apartment that was
already overflowing with my
stuff); to come and pick him up 40 minutes away because his truck had
broken down. And I'd only met the guy once.
The generosity had simply been to prime me to be more easily
manipulated - people are more inclined to be generous after they've
been the recipients of generosity themselves.
I decided not to wing the guy again - he was too good a manipulator, and I didn't want to get stuck - but it was an in-the-flesh illustration for me, once again, of the fact that a lover is often not much more than a loser... with sex appeal.
What Makes a Lover
Strapping good looks aren't a prerequisite, though of course they help if you've got 'em. I've known men with very similar lifestyles to that guy I met in San Diego who were even more prolific than he was and were not what you'd describe as traditionally good-looking - guys who traveled around, bummed off other people, used small amounts of generosity to attain far larger return favors, and easily charmed women into seductions that sometimes led to relationships that brought them food, shelter, new clothes, and expensive gifts.
While I don't recommend you go full loser - don't actually become the guy who just gets good at using people, of course - I do recommend learning from these types: what is it about them that makes women just want to SLEEP with them and THROW them stuff?
Here are men who:
- Are not employed
- Are usually transitory / just passing through
- Are not stable long-term options in the slightest
That looks quite a bit like the men women meet while on vacation, or the no-strings hookups girls have with exotic foreign men just passing through their cities, doesn't it?
Of course, the negatives that make these men not boyfriend material are only one side of the picture. The other side is the positives - these men also are all:
- Well-presented (great fundamentals)
- Confident and good with women
- Very smooth in moving things quickly
but comfortably forward
When most people think of someone who's unemployed, transitory, and unstable, they picture a vagrant in tattered clothes, or some kind of backpacker hippie sort.
Take someone like that and put him in great clothes, give him a great haircut, have him stand up straight and tall, give him reams of confidence, and make him smooth with women, though, and now what've you got?
A mystery, an intrigue, and a lover.
Why This is So
Here's the part where most men ask wait a minute - charming, good fundamentals, confidence, smoothness - these are all good things. So shouldn't a woman be even MORE attracted to you if you're ALSO employed, stationary, and STABLE? That's even MORE good stuff!
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Yet, you'd be stuck being every bit as frustrated as I was, back in my "ideal boyfriend" days.
The problem comes from rolling all kinds of value up into the same pot and thinking that all value is created equal, and does the same thing.
But it doesn't.
In the case of boyfriend vs. lover vs. loser, you can think of there being two kinds of value, in fact:
- Sexual value, and
- Stable value
Sexual value is made up of things like being charming, being attractive, being confident, and being smooth. These are things that make a woman want to go to bed with you.
Stable value is comprised of forms of value like being employed, being employed by a prestigious firm, being firmly planted in a city and having no plans of leaving any time soon, owning an apartment or a home, owning a nice car, being a "good guy", moving slowly and respectfully with women, etc.
How these interact is thus:
A loser has neither of these kinds of value, and thus is unattractive to women
A lover has merely sexual value, and thus is only attractive to women as a short-term mating option
A friend has merely stable value, and thus is only attractive to women as a platonic friend
A boyfriend or husband candidate has a mix of sexual and stable value, and thus is the most valuable individual to a woman, and someone women want to hold onto long-term and not mess things up with
Here's an example.
Let's say you met two women. One of these women was just a wild, sensual club girl, dressed in skimpy attire, and with no redeeming value to you aside from her body and her interest in you. How fast do you feel comfortable moving with her? You're probably going to treat it as a "now or never" type of deal, aren't you? Either the two of you are going to sleep together now... or, you're not even going to waste a thought cycle on her tomorrow.
But then, you meet another woman... and this woman is quite attractive and sensual as well, but, as you soon find out, she also has all the qualities you look for in a mate - maybe she's an excellent cook; maybe she's fiercely loyal; maybe she's quiet and submissive, or bold and adventurous. Maybe she has a great job and a great education and her own income stream; or, maybe, she's just getting by, and waiting around for her Prince Charming to come and snatch her from mediocrity and into something great. Whatever it is, she is what you want.
Now how fast do you feel comfortable moving with her?
Quite a different story, isn't it?
The wild club girl you're either going to hook up with, or you're going to forget about.
Miss Right, though - you're going to take it nice and slow, make sure you don't mess up, and make everything on all your dates as perfect as can be.
Well, guess what - women are exactly the same.
Keeping the Sexual, Losing the Stable
Becoming a lover is really about keeping (or getting) the sexual, and dropping the stable.
When you have both forms of value, you force a woman to value you more highly... and want you as a long-term partner.
When you're missing one of them, though, you end up in a box: lover (if you're missing stable value) or friend (if you're missing sexual value).
And if you're missing both, you're just some loser.
The mistakes you'll see men making commonly are:
Focusing only on stable value. That's a one-way ticket to the friend zone, but most guys don't realize this because they don't realize there's more than one kind of value. They hear how important it is to have a good job or be a good guy, and assume that if they just do this, it's enough. But then they're only appealing to women from the "he can take care of me” side of the equation, and not the "he can make me wet, make me scream, and make me glow" side of the equation... and they get no consideration for sex as a result (and end up quite frustrated).
Dropping stable value without upping sexual value. The next mistake in line is the guy who realizes he's been shooting himself in the foot by focusing on being too good a provider, and decides to STOP being a provider - without upping his sexual value too. So, he drops the one thing about him that women found attractive - his stability - and replaces it with... nothing. Women then have no interest in him, and disappear.
Trying to be the perfect man. That's what we just talked about above - when a guy's made himself SO amazing that he's... now getting slow-gamed by girls who are afraid of losing him by moving too fast. Dial it down.
If you're in any one of these categories, it's easy to get angry, or frustrated, or annoyed at women. They're fools if they don't see how awesome I am! you think. Well, too bad for them, because if they don't want to move fast with ME, then I'm just GONE and they've LOST their chance! Ha!
But taking on the victim role here doesn't help you any.
It doesn't make you any better with women.
It doesn't train you to better communicate what you want to communicate to them.
It just leaves you high and dry, with a lot of confused women scratching their heads wondering why you seemed like perfect boyfriend material but got ghost after the second date, and you cursing the gods for not blessing you with good looks or height or money or whatever else it is you think women want that you don't have.
So don't be mad. Those girls you cut off for not putting out will just go find someone who does a better job of exciting them and go put out for him, instead. The only person you're hurting if you getting your trousers in a twist is you.
Instead, sit down, read through the articles on disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend:
- Telling Women You're NOT Boyfriend Material
- The Early Boyfriend: Why It's a Bad Idea
- Does She
Want You as a Boyfriend... or Something Else?
... read through the articles on getting your nonverbal fundamentals down:
to Be a Sexy Man
- Book Excerpts: Get a Sexy
- How to Have a Sexy Walk That Drives Women Nuts
Hair Styles to Make You Look Cool Sharp and Sexy
- Sexy Body
Language for Men (Learned from Hot Girls)
- Fashion for Men: The Primer on Looking Amazing
- 7 Facial
Expressions That Drive Women Wild
... and read through the articles on creating sexual tension, vibes, and appeal:
- Secrets to Getting Girls: Chase Framing
- How to Use the Sexual
Frame to Turn Women On
- Constructing Your Sexy Vibe (and Making Girls Go Nuts)
Tension: 7 Ways to Make Women Excited and Randy
- How to Use
Sex Talk to Set a Sexual Tone and Mood
- Sexual Framing: More on Using This to Get Girls
- Assumptions as Tools of
These are the tools you need to not just remove your stable value (to uncomplicate a woman's decision-making process and free her to move fast with you), but to build up your sexual value.
James Bond is a Loser
Just look at him.
He's never around. He's always away on travel. He doesn't appear to own a home or have any property. He's a real cad - he never sticks with any one woman for all that long. He's not the kind of guy who's going to listen to all your problems and have a cry with you.
Yet, he's well-dressed. He appears to be well-off. His life seems to be one of adventure, excitement, and continually breaking convention, expectation, and routine. He speaks well, carries himself well, and exudes both power and sensuality. Confidence emanates from him in waves.
All this makes him a very uncomplicated choice for women. The choice with James Bond is sex, or no sex.
There's no worrying about slow gaming things to get him into a relationship.
There's no confusion about whether a girl's going to lose him as a friend if she takes him to bed.
There's only one simple, easy-to-understand, and even easier-to-make decision there: am I going to sleep with him or not?
Wouldn't you rather her have an easy decision to make about you, then a cripplingly hard one that forces her to draw things out needlessly?
So, stop making things so complicated for these poor girls.
Make your and their lives easier - uncomplicate your value to them, and make the choice to sleep with you fast, instead of slow, an easy one.