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What do you do when
she rolls her eyes or sticks her hand in you face? How you handle it is
down to if it’s a soft rebuff or a hard one.
Three girls in a nightclub, dressed flashy, keeping to themselves. The redhead was in a shiny, sexy beige dress. The blonde was in tight jean shorts and a white top with no bra. They had an older gal with them, perhaps late 30s, curly black hair and defiant.
I watched one man walk up to them, get spurned, roll off.
Another guy approached; snubbed, and he left.
So, I waited. And after a time, I saw my opening: we’d all moved out
to a quieter part of the venue, and at some point the three girls moved
out into the same area, out of the loud dance club part.
I was with a few friends who were good with girls but weren’t habitual cold approachers, and they debated whether to make an approach or not. I was just there to spend time with my friends, not to meet girls per se. But I set down my glass and walked over to them.
The girls saw me coming and closed ranks; another sad man to reject. When I reached them, the older gal gave me a half second of eye contact before she put her hand up in my face dismissively and turned away; the blonde wouldn’t look, and the redhead stared off, a bitchy look on her face.
A minute later, I had all three girls laughing and smiling with me. And when after I chatted with my friend, who’d watched the whole thing, all he could ask me was, “What did you say to them?”
Comments
Hi chase,
Hi chase,
I am a fan of your writing and your words. I am a 5 ft 10 inches tall fella (kinda average, but not tall). I have no problems or insecurity related to my height as such, but find it highly emasculating when a 6'2 - 6'3 dude towers over me at a bar. This completely throws me off state, especially if he talks to the same woman I've been chatting up with. Is there any way to switch of my reaction to external stimuli and not pay heed. Thank you in advance.
Big Creepy Giant
Abel-
Hmm. I’ve got about two inches on you, so not too much taller, but this never really bothers me. Never thought about why because I’ve never been asked, but I’ll tell you what goes through my head.
If I’m in a bar talking to a girl, and a much taller man comes up to try and peel her off, my immediate thought is, “Ew, she’s not even going to be interested in that guy, he’s like a big creepy giant.”
From a pure female psychology standpoint, it’s off-base; girls do like taller men. Height’s attractive. All other things being equal (assuming equal fundamentals + game between me and him, he’s just taller), he ought to win. If I ever coach a tall guy, I tell him he’s got it as easy starting out as anybody, and I mean it.
But in the moment, my reaction is like, “Lol, this guy thinks he can get her from me? Good luck,” and both the girl and the guy can see that on my face and in my reactions. I’ve talked to thousands and thousands of girls in bars and never had a guy successfully steal one off me (that I can recall), tall or not.
I suppose part of it is just that because I don’t break circle and whatever girl I talk to is typically sucked into me enough that she isn’t going to either, a guy has to really stick his neck out to jump into our conversation, which means he’s always being at least a little bit awkward. So whether he’s tall or short, smooth or not smooth, cool or not, you’re always going to mentally characterize whatever he’s doing as creepy and off-base in that situation, and the girl (who’s empathized with you by that point) will tend to follow your lead and follow suit.
Chase
Women's "Tests"
Hey Chase,
I like a lot of your material. But the concept of "tests" that women give has always bothered me. Not because I think they shouldn't be doing it. Rather, I think that what we call "passing a test" is in reality, just a women changing her mind when presented with new information.
Take the story in your article for example...you got hard rebuffed. But the women saw you weren't phased by it, and even treated it in a playful and non-chalant way. Because of this, they opened up to you and allowed you to have a conversation with them.
I wouldn't call this "passing a test". It seems to me that these women had every intention of shutting down any guy who comes up to them that night. But they also have the conflicting primal instinct to mate with a high-value man. Your reaction to their rejection suggested that you might be exactly that type of man. Eventually, said primal instinct won over, and they opened up to you.
I would say this is even further enforced by the fact that the older women pulled them away after that. She felt threatened by you because up till then, their deal was that its "girls night out" and that "we're not talking to guys". When she saw you had won her friends over, she panicked. Wheras had this in fact been a "test" she would have seen that you passed it, and would not have pulled her friends away.
I think this same line of thinking can be applied to all women's "tests". It's not that she wants to find out more about us. Rather, its that she's either indecisive because she has conflicting desires, and by "passing" or "failing", you eventually persuade her one way or another. OR, she had already made up her mind, but you gave her a reason to change it.
Would you agree with this Philosophy?
I suppose you're right,at
I suppose you're right,at least to a certain extent, however if you're a woman eventually you'll find ways to screen men, and what they used to do for said reason now becomes a councious or unconcious way to find high quality men.
Say women rebuffing men because it's a girls night only now become a screening tool to find the men you want.
If not for that I believe Chase calls these events "tests" to simplify the idead and make us think of it in productive ways.
Tests Really are Tests
Anon-
It can be the case that a woman simply changes her mind.
But women do ACTUALLY test quite a bit. I’ve had various women in various countries in North America, Europe, and Asia all flat out tell me they tested this guy or that, or that they tested me and wanted to see how I reacted, and they’d never been exposed to my website or any pickup-related terminology where women’s actions are described this way. It’s just the word that most aptly describes it.
I did not like the term “tests” for the longest time. I thought it was unhealthy for a man to think about a woman as “testing” him, because it puts the woman in power and the man is now trying to “pass her tests” like a job applicant or something. I spent years trying to come up with a better term for it and just couldn’t.
What tests are quite a lot of the time is a girl look at you and says, “Hmm, I might like this guy. I’m not sure. Let me see how he reacts when I do this.” And then she does something silly or tricky or flighty.
Sometimes this happens at a very conscious level. Sometimes it’s barely conscious, or totally unconscious. I’ve had girls test me, and I knew it was a test, and the girl swears up and down she was dead serious and it is not a test. And then hours later she comes back to me and says she thinks I’m right and that it was a test and here’s what in my behavior triggered it.
Easiest way to think about it is that women are constantly determining a man’s social rank, the strength of the genes he’s passing on, his ability to provide, his ability to defend, and other important capabilities, and men are constantly doing their best to look as solid on all these things as possible. A woman needs a way to cut through the posing and see how solid a guy really is on these things. When people are in challenging situations, you see their true colors, so women put men in challenging positions and the guy drops any pretenses and shows you what he is. Weak guys get needy, disinterested guys don’t care, desperate guys get desperate, strong guys respond in a strong way, etc.
Much as I never liked the term, “tests” simply is what this behavior is. She has a little mischievous grin on the inside and is being a little experimenter, saying to herself, “What does this guy do when I do this?”
Depending on your response, she is disappointed, annoyed, thrilled, intrigued, etc.
(women also seem to use tests to make life more interesting for themselves. If she’s bored, either with you or with the situation in general, she may say, “Let’s shake things up a bit and see what happens when I do this.” In this way, women are much like little children, who test all the time too)
Chase
Skepticism
Chase,
You're very experienced in this and have probably talked to quite a few more women than I have. So I will definitely take note of and seriously consider your response when talking to women in the future.
Having said that, I'm still very skeptical. Here's why:
1. So far I haven't seen any research to suggest that women test men. The concept of tests is almost exclusive to the PUA/manosphere community. As such, most of it is based on anecdotal experience and is very susceptible to confirmation biaas. I'm sure some women do test men. But its a learned behavior which they're very intentionally and consciously doing. Similar to how some women act aloof/play hard to get in order to get men to Chase harder. But that's a very small percentage of the women. And its not innate to them on a biological/instinctual level. Its something which life experience has taught them to do.
2. From an evolutionary psychology standpoint, this seems like a poor mating strategy for women. Here's why:
Women search for high quality men. By definition, high quality men don't put up with subpar behavior. So...when a women tries to "test" a high quality man by exhibiting subpar behavior, there is a good chance that said high quality man will either walk away because he lost interest in the women, or at the very least, will take note of it and demote her from say...potential relationship candidate to only potential hookup. This does not bode well for most women. So yes...even though tests may reveal the truth about certain men, the women themselves will also take a value hit by behaving in this way which will ultimately diminish their mating options.
3. My experience has been the opposite. There have been very few "tests" that women throw at me. And I've spent quite a lot of time on pickup (not nearly as much as you though. So I still do respect your expertise).
4. Most men are just as picky as women when it comes to choosing them for relationships. So if this was a good strategy for screening potential mates out, men would also be "testing" women right? And yet, they don't. Why not?
Double Checking
Hey Chase,
Thanks for your articles bro.
I haven't been reading for awhile but pushing hard to practice.
It's starting to come back after a couple month break.
That adrenaline of flirting, and approaching and thinking, "I think she's interested. Meh, let's do it anyway!" It's exhilarating!
What about you? What's new with you?
A thought came across my mind lately:
How do I know if a result turns sour (ex. girl rejects) is due to her real interest (or lack of) from the beginning or because I mucked it up and it would have been well if I played it right?
Sort of troubleshooting and figuring out.
If all those girls who rejected actually wanted me, but something in my process made it bad, then no matter how many times I do it, I'll only miss opportunities without knowing. That's the last thing I want.
One thought that still haunts me despite of rereading your "Move her article" is asking a girl to move right away after a few exchanges. I throw a situationally relevant statement, she smiles and is extremely warm. I ask her to come sit over here and she says no.
What if I asked a little later after a few more words of exchange, would it flip a rejection to a copulation? (bad joke :P)
Always trying to keep the ball in my court so I can tweak it and fix it, but knowing if it was my fault or if it was to be (ie she just wasn't interested) would help lots.
Thanks,
Lawliet
Rebuff Scenarios
Lawliet-
Good to hear you are putting everything into practice and seeing it click!
You can certainly ask girls to move a little later on if they’ve declined earlier on. Won’t always work, but sometimes it may.
If you’re trying to figure out if a rejection is due to a mistake or just a lack of interest, you need to look for interest / compliance levels. What’s her body language like at the outset and throughout, how much compliance does she give you, etc. If she never opens up and always stays cold or polite, it’s probably just a lack of base interest. But if she seems to open up, gives you more of her body, shows more interest, becomes more compliant, then at some point she begins to withdraw that or cut it off, you had it for a while, then lost it.
On the “girl goes right back to her phone after you open” scenarios, you handle that identical to the example in the article where the girl holds her hand up. i.e., you go meta. For example, she goes right back to her book, and you smile and say (in a somewhat patronizing tone, as if you were talking to a small child), “Must be an interesting book to suck you back in so fast like that!” She’ll either crack a smile, which is your green light to keep teasing her, or she’ll tell you yes, and I’d like to read it in peace, thank you, and then you can tell her okay, I won’t get in your way, well I’ll be right over here when you’re feeling more sociable, then leave her be.
If she cuts you off at the opener and walks off, plant your feet right where you are and playfully call out, “But you don’t even know what I’m going to say! You could be missing out on the man of your dreams and you’ll never even know it!” At worst, she’ll get a laugh out of it, and you’ll save face because you handled it so well. At best, you’ll sometimes have her spin around and come back to you and say, “All right, what?” with a grin on her face, and now you’ve got your shot (generally, you should immediately ask for compliance in that situation: “Okay, come here. Just come here, I want to show you something”).
“I have a boyfriend” is not always a real rejection. Only sometimes. And you don’t need long hair to do the hair flip (though I do have it). You can pretend to do it with your non-existent long hair, and girls will still know exactly what it means and laugh anyway.
Chase
Rebuff with their task or item
Just thought of an interesting rebuff that I cannot effortlessly overcome and come across not chasing.
Usually in daygame in public, girls are either on their phones or wearing headsets or looking at their laptop for example.
If we're next to them, pre-open works effortlessly.
If we're near them, pre-open, since verbal "Hey" preamble doesn't work.
Just talking as if they hear you isn't right either.
Now, if they divert their attention back to their phone or music right after opening, I've tried pre-open after again, but have not gotten a date at all from these. It feels off too, as if I'm a fly hovering back and forth over them. I even notice signs of interest decreasing every time I reopen again.
I suspect there is a way we can handle these and come off as a winner,
Any ideas?
Lawliet
She moves after rebuff
Another scenario would be she cuts you off at the opener and walks away.
According to the rule of thumb, an average guy would call her a bitch.
But running after her would be a perfect (and literal) example of chasing.
Finally, are all boyfriend excuses real rejection?
You have two articles of this before, how do we tell the difference?
I usually persist anyway, and ones who go with it, numbers don't give much result after.
I suspect whatever happens must happen then and there for these girls.
Ones who really aren't interested will walk away.
Btw I see your hair is long enough to imitate their "hard rebuffs" in dramatic hair flinging, I wish I had that advantage! ;) 20X dramatic act of brushing my short hair will have to do for now
Lawliet
join in on Abel's question
i would just love to hear your answer for the first question...
"I have no problems or insecurity related to my height as such, but find it highly emasculating when a 6'2 - 6'3 dude towers over me at a bar. This completely throws me off state, especially if he talks to the same woman I've been chatting up with. Is there any way to switch of my reaction to external stimuli and not pay heed. Thank you in advance."
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