At What Point Do You Give Up?


In response to my statement in “Real Empiricists Test”, uForia asked a follow up question on how you can tell the difference between something not working because you’re not getting right, and something not working because it simply doesn’t work:

I think for most new guys, skepticism comes up when they follow your instructions but it blew up anyways, which questions your legitimacy. It is uncertain for many beginners like myself whether your method needs more practice or it’s just random PUA junk. Again, I didn’t say this to offend you or anything (I think you’re probably mature enough to not be offended anyways), as I’m sure you had difficulties finding what works and what doesn’t as well.

In other words, when should you give up?

when do you give up

This is a non-trivial question, and it’s one that’s pretty necessary to have some sort of an answer to. Because if you can’t tell when you’ve been tossing your time away on something that just doesn’t work, well... you can end up being that guy who goes and does 5000 approaches and still can’t get laid.

And you don’t want to be that guy.

The good news is that most people have a limit where they reach where they just give up without anyone having to tell them to do so... the bad news is that for most people that limit comes far too early, and for some it comes far too late.


when do you give up

I’m not certain offhand whether an article on how and when to give up vs. persevere is really all that important or necessary; I think it might be interesting, but I’d be surprised if it changed anything for anyone.

That’s because, from everything I’ve witnessed, whether you give up or persevere at something, or anything, is entirely dependent on you, and no one else.

I have seen guys right on the cusp of success, to whom I’ve said, “Stick with it! You are almost there! Success is just about yours!” about any number of things, only for them to throw in the towel in the last mile and pack it up and go home, back to mediocrity and averageness and wishing they could have those things they almost had but now never will.

Likewise, I have seen guys doing something over and over again that doesn’t make sense and that never works, no matter how many people I see doing it, and I’ve said to them, “Look, why don’t you take a short break – you don’t have to quit it forever – but just go try this other way, just for two weeks, and if it doesn’t work any better you can go back to doing what you’re doing,” but they just refuse, and keep doing that thing that isn’t getting them results until they realize on their own, sometimes years later, it was a waste of time and finally try something different.

And, I’ve been both of these guys myself at various times – waving the white flag when I’m five minutes from victory, and continuing far too long at stubbornly doing something that just doesn’t work.

The reason that pretty much everyone – you, I, and everybody else out there – is quite often terrible at gauging how near or far success is when using any given method on our own is because until you know how to achieve a certain kind of success, you will not be able to figure out how far away from it you are.

And you won’t know how to achieve a certain kind of success for sure until you have already achieved it.

Which means that, at least when you’re starting out, there’s a small place for faith after all.


I Do Want Your Faith?

In the article about empiricism and testing, I perhaps was a little hard on faith.

Here’s what I mean.

When I first decided I’d approach getting good with women as a skill, I had no examples around me of any other man who’d ever done that. I’d never heard of anyone doing it, seen anyone who’d done it, or met anyone who had. The only thing that made me believe I could learn “girls” as a skill was because when I looked back on my life I’d seen myself having done it already with a variety of different things, some of them social, and I concluded that there was no way that succeeding with women should be any different.

Yet, there was no way for me to know this for sure, and indeed, in moments of doubt, I sometimes found myself wondering if something like this could ever really work.

Fortunately enough for me, I had enough early victories with my first few approaches that I felt like I was getting somewhere, but eventually you hit some plateaus where progress stalls out.

And at that point, when nothing seems to be working, and no progress seems to be getting made, and it feels like you’re weighted down with anvils on your shoes, the only thing that gets you through is pure, stubborn, old-fashioned hard-headedness, and not a little faith.

Faith in your theory of how things work, and faith in your self.


Does It Click or Does It Not

when do you give up

You don’t have to be someone with lots of faith to get good at picking up. You just have to be someone who’s either:

  1. Had the past experience of learning any skill to a fair degree, or

  2. Desperate enough that he’s willing to take something a little on faith

If you’re in one of those two categories, you’re the type of guy who hits a website like Girls Chase and says, “Yes! This is what I’ve been looking for – give it to me!” and then goes out and tries it.

But if you’re not... if you’ve never learned any skill to a fair degree with practice, discipline, hard work, and perseverance, outside of perhaps a trade that you developed through structured/imposed schooling or work... and you’re not so desperate for anything you can possibly try... you’re the type of guy who may well hit a site like this and say, “What a load of bunk. That stuff would never work in a million years, and you’d be better off trying to become a rock star or a millionaire if you wanted to get laid.”

Both of those first guys have some degree of faith – either prior history-based, like the guys who’ve built skills in the past and now look at the world through a skill-building lens, even for those things they have yet to try their hands at learning as skills, or desperation-based, where they’re so hard up for answers that they’re willing to try out anything that sounds reasonably persuasive.

To actually START something new, you’ve got to have some amount of faith it’s going to work. Imagine Henry Ford setting up the first assembly line for building automobiles, when nothing remotely similar had ever been done, or the Wright brothers thinking they could transition from bicycle makers to flying machine makers, when the world was souring on flying machines after a few decades of failed attempts across Europe and North America. There’s no way you could know for sure you can make some crazy idea like this work, and you’re either going to take it on faith that you can figure out a way to do so, or you’re going to say, “I’m not convinced that’s possible,” and you won’t. Most people are the latter.

So, there is a role for faith, and it’s a role that comes into play before you start testing things. Because, realistically, for you to go do any amount of hard work – and when you’re new to getting girls, going out and approaching is invariably going to be hard work – you’ve got to be sufficiently motivated. If you don’t think a thing is going to work, your motivation just goes right out the window.


when do you give up

When I’ve done something crazy and new, traditionally, I’ve preferred not to talk about it until it’s already done, because before that point, the Doubting Thomases around me have done their very best to dissuade me from doing it. I’ve reached a place in life now where most of the people around me have had plenty of experiences doing things everyone else tells them are impossible, so usually it’s safe discussing crazy ideas with them, but even then, I still find even open-minded friends will tell you things are impossible... so, usually better to just go do the things people will tell you are impossible first, and fill them in on the details once the impossible is already finished, handled, and in the bag.

I had a pretty good track record of taking guys out in-field during my live coaching days and getting them leaving with contact information from one or two girls they’d sleep with later, and sometimes with them leaving the session with a girl they’d sleep with then and there, or sometimes we’d pick up together. Sometimes these would be guys who’d previously talked about how they’d hit some plateau and couldn’t make it work and they were starting to wonder if they ever could.

These guys didn’t lack the capability; they just didn’t have a clear roadmap for success in their heads since they hadn’t had much success, and hadn’t clearly understood what caused their success when they had had it, so they couldn’t figure out how to proceed until someone with a better roadmap than them came in and told them where they needed to turn.

Most guys who learn something about seduction throw the towel in pretty early, but so do most guys who learn something about anything. Most people who want to get good at singing give up pretty quickly, for instance.

But this isn’t American Idol (or Britain’s Got Talent if you’re across the pond or prefer the original). You’re not competing for one shot a season with a bunch of other ridiculously talented people (plus a few muppets), and if you don’t get it, that’s it. We’re talking about dating and sex; something that almost everybody does, many times with multiple partners throughout their lives.

It’s not rocket science. You’re not becoming a movie star or a billionaire here. It’s having sex with pretty girls... and there are LOTS of pretty girls, and LOTS of different kinds of guys of any infinite variety of characteristics having sex with them.


The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early

The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ is the guy who is not motivated to work hard.

He is the guy who wants everything in life to be easy, and becomes frustrated quickly when success is not given to him on a silver platter.

The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ shows up in pickup as the guy who says something like, “This stuff doesn’t work! I tried to move fast with a girl like you said, and now she won’t return my calls! It’s a waste of time,” or, “I’ve talked to almost 20 different women and still haven’t gotten laid. I don’t think this works for me.”

when do you give up

Which, if you know anything about game, is sort of like saying I’ve tried 10 math problems and I still can’t solve these functions, or I’ve played 40 holes of golf and I’m not golfing under par. What gives?

Not every guy wants to go be a cold approacher, of course; most men don’t. You can work on your fundamentals and learn game and get a handle on things like the Law of Least Effort and asymmetric returns and still do quite all right in these arenas, though you’ll probably never be great. But, there are a million different things you can learn to be great at, and you don’t have to be great to get a great girl. If you’re pretty good, you’ll get great girls at least some of the time, and because most people spend years going through different mates, chances are, being pretty good is all you really need to find a solid girl and hang onto her if that’s your objective.

Yet, if you’re going to base your opinions off of 20 approaches, well, I did several thousand in my first year of being very active, while holding down a full time office job, and though I haven’t done quite as many in any subsequent year (I don’t think...) as I did in that year, it does take a certain number of approaches to really get a feel for meeting women. Because you’re using this site, the amount of approaching you’ll have to do before you reach similar milestones I reached at various places is dramatically reduced, but it still isn’t zero. You’re not going to get in 20 approaches to where I got in 2000 approaches, no matter how well educated you are.

The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ stops martial arts after three classes because it’s too much running around; he quits piano lessons after going five times and still struggling with chopsticks; and he hangs up his approaching spurs after 20 approaches and still no dates.

It’s not that he lacks the capacity to succeed at anything; it’s simply that he lacks the motivation. He either:

  1. Doesn’t believe in his capacity to make a given system work, or

  2. Doesn’t want the end result bad enough to put the work in that’s required

If it’s the former, he will externalize it and blame it on the thing itself: “Basketball’s just too hard to learn if you aren’t seven feet tall with really big hands” or “Pickup is nonsense because it only works for guys who are really good looking” or “You have to have musical talent to learn piano”, even though these are just excuses and examples abound of people without these advantages who’ve mastered the skill in question.

But deep down, what differentiates The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ from those men who do not is that The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ either doesn’t care enough about a thing to bust his chops and make it work, or he doesn’t believe in his own ability to make something work, while the guys who make a thing work look at that thing and say, “I’m going to make this work if it’s the last thing I do,” then proceed to do just that.

(which is not to say you need to commit to learning seduction, or any skill set for that matter; I’ve dropped out of far more skill sets than I’ve stuck it out with, including piano, karate, snowboarding, acting, billiards, every language from Spanish to French to Japanese to Korean, Lean Six Sigma, darts, and a bunch more I probably can’t recall that I spent some time learning and thought I really wanted to learn well, but abandoned; in my case, whatever the method being taught, I’ve always fully believed I could find a way to make it work, I just... didn’t care enough to make the endeavor a priority over other more important things to me)


The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up

The opposite of The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ isn’t the guy who sticks it out just right, but rather The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™. Where The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ could use a good infusion of motivation and/or faith in his own ability to make things work, The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™ is in serious need of a dose of reality.

The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™ does not know how to work smart.

These guys are harder to work with than the ones who give up too early. When a guy gives up too early, it’s usually because he’s never had ANYTHING in his life he’s achieved outsized success in, and doing so is just something that sits outside his reality and seems like an impossible hurdle to overcome. When you can work with a guy like this in the field, all you need to do is take him out, throw him into interactions with women you can tell are open to meeting someone, arm him with a few specific things to do, and suddenly he’s doing things he thought were completely out of reach for him, and they’re a lot easier than he expected they would be.

And then you have him do it with another girl. And then another. And another. And his previous reality is shattered.

But The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™ is a different case. That’s because THIS guy will not listen to you at all. He is so certain that he is on the right path that he will just do the same exact thing over and over and over and over again, with it never working, under the assumption that his approach is only going to get better if he just keeps repeating this thing without changing anything.

when do you give up

Fact is, you should be changing things every time you try them out, and writing off stuff that doesn’t work after a certain amount of time. Why? Because no matter how much material you consume and how detailed that material is, you only ever have a partial picture of what you need to do; you must constantly be tweaking your approach, changing things, modifying, and customizing it to find something that distinctly suits you. Most people understand this, but there’s a minority of men that this does not make sense for; I don’t know if it’s a lack of creativity or what it is, but the only thing they do is the same exact unchanging thing, again and again and again.

That doesn’t mean you write off an entire skill area because you tried one thing and it didn’t work, like The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™. That’s like trying to paint a tree by spotting oil paint on canvas for leaves, producing a crummy-looking tree, and saying, “There. I knew I couldn’t paint. Those damn paint gurus trying to tell me I could learn this... what a load of BS.” Instead, it means you try painting that tree, it comes out crummy, and you say, “Okay, that sucks. What should I try to do differently next time? Maybe I can try spotting the paint while holding the paint brush at a different angle.”

The common theme between both The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ and The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™ is that neither guy asks what he’s doing wrong and what he needs to change.

Instead, The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ throws his hands up and says, “It doesn’t work. I quit!”, while The Guy Who Doesn’t Know When to Give Up™ strokes his chin and said, “Hmm, it didn’t work. I’m sure I did it right though... let me just go do that another 5000 times until it starts to work.”

(worth noting: it’s been my observation that the majority of the guys who run into this problem specifically with seduction tend to be extremely tightly-wound “by the book” types who follow a life pattern of taking whatever they get from an authority figure and following it to the letter with no deviation or experimentation; many of them doing this in seduction also seem to be of Indian or Pacific Islander descent... maybe because these cultures have strict, do-not-challenge-your-better hierarchies? Not familiar enough with the cultures to say for sure, but my understanding of them is that strict, unwavering adherence to instructions from an authority figure is the way people from these cultures are raised, which if that’s accurate may be why they seem to gravitate so much to very structured methods of game, then fail to learn the things structured teachers do but don’t teach, like most fundamentals, since these typically aren’t part of the “program”)


It’s the Man, Not the Method

Head on over to a bodybuilding forum, and you will find a thousand different methods instructing you how to eat and how to train to build a great body. You could spend years trying to figure out which one you should listen to. Yet, you’ll notice if you pay much attention that most of the guys harping all their different methods, and ragging on the other guys whose methods differ significantly from theirs, all of them have pretty decent physiques – it’s a bunch of muscular men telling each other their muscle-building method is better than the next guy’s, but clearly they’ve all built muscle.

And it’s the same thing with teaching math, or martial arts, or seduction.

Yes, the right teacher helps. And the right method will expedite your learning and make things faster and more natural for you.

But you know what? Almost all of the writers on this website came from a different school of seduction, and yet we all ended up in the same place, and all of us get results.

It isn’t the METHOD that makes you successful; it’s the MAN. It’s you.

Success comes from doing. A good method can make it easier; a bad one can make it harder.

But not even the worst method in the world can prevent you from getting good at something if you want, and not even the best one can make you great at something if you don’t do the work, or aren’t smart about how you do it.

If you’re worried about whether you’re doing things right... quit worrying so much about the method. If you’re following a method that you think is flawed, and you can’t find anything better, then hey – maybe throw the method out altogether and teach it to yourself.

Because you know what? A lot of guys out there teach themselves game every day. It can be done. Much of what I learned I learned on my own; teachers and mentors and role models helped, but there was all kinds of stuff I had to piece together from random people in my life or clues from guys who were good with girls but couldn’t fully explain what they were doing (like: deep diving, chase framing, eliciting values, emotional cresting, how to build sexual tension properly, etc.).

I will never begrudge a guy for teaching himself anything. I try to seek out mentors when I can, but I’ve had plenty of things I’ve said to myself, “Screw what everyone else is teaching, their stuff doesn’t work for me; I’ll just figure it out on my own.”

If you’ve got a method you believe in that makes it easier for you, that’s great. But if you don’t? Just go do the thing until you make it work. In our case, that means just go talk to girls until you’ve got girls all figured out. You don’t have to follow Girls Chase, or any other site, guide, or method. Some of the most original styles of game I’ve seen have come from guys who figure out their own unique way of bedding women with little influence from others.

So long as you are working hard (that is, doing a thing frequently and with dedication) and you are working smart (you’re constantly adjusting your approach, analyzing why something didn’t work, and testing a possible solution), you will succeed.

Just don’t be the guy who throws his hands up after 20 approaches, or the one who robo-approaches 5000 girls without changing hardly a thing, and you’ll probably be all right ;)

Chase

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Comments

Sam2's picture

The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™


Chase,

I used to be The Guy Who Gives Up Too Early™ and I would like to make an adjustment to his image.

His logic is slightly more nuanced than what you describe it to be. The reason why he has this quitting mentality is not so much because he doesn't believe in himself, nor because he has never met significant success in anything; it is rather his belief that the returns from such an effort are - in his opinion - disproportionate.

This guy runs a simple cost-benefit calculation and asks you: "What are your gains from approaching hundreds of women? Give me a fraction or a percentage". You tell him "I have sex with 1 out of 10 women I approach" and he goes: "So, all this fuss to actually be rejected 9 times and get ONLY 1 out of 10....well I am sure I could get 1 out of 10 girls by doing less without even cold approaching due to pure luck or through social circle".

And to be honest sometimes you can feel this way even if you had proven results with women, but simply reached some kind of plateau.

Thanks for another great article

V's picture

This is incredibly important


I still remember the first time I felt like this. I was about to give up, and then two days after I decided to give it one last shot, I made a huge breakthrough. I remember you telling me,

"I'm almost tempted to believe the universe is listening when things like that happen - right when you're like, "I give up... it's NEVER going to work," and then BAM! something cool happens"

So guys, when you feel like this, stick with it for two more weeks. I bet something great will happen.

I'm glad I didn't give up.

Great article as always Chase.

TORNADO's picture

Spot On...


"many of them doing this in seduction also seem to be of Indian or Pacific Islander descent."

I couldn't help but laugh at this statement. Guilty!! I still sometimes fall prey to it, but its very rare and I immediately cut off. For example - I did mention previously that I again got friend-zoned with a girl who stopped respecting me and started to get work from me. I immediately cut off, now she's the one who calls, chases. She hardly asks me to do anything. If she does I come up with some excuse or simply say "I am too bored" or drag it till the very end (Courtesy of your "How to be an asshole" article"). Also, her respect for me has suddenly zoomed up and I am able to easily move her. But I rarely do that as I have lost my interest in her. However, I do throw a tease around every now and then of calling her out randomly and bailing on her which is fun. My previous experience back in my home country was a daunting one when I chased a girl for 1 and half years. I never would want anything like that again.

Chase, I read this article and previous article of yours.

I just would like to say that by far atleast according to me your greatest article which has had the most impact on me and probably even changed my life is the "Devil May Care" attitude. I am still working on "How to be an Asshole" trait. I don't want to come up with any reasons but I used to be in a position during my childhood, where leave alone girls, even talking to guys was difficult. I used to be the center of all their jokes, often ostracized, taken for granted etc. Funny part is there was a time - during my teenage when girls used to call me an Asshole. However, I was a complete asshole back then, so no avail. I am finding it so difficult to get back that trait of mine (atleast in moderation). Have you even been in such a situation where you had a good trait before, then you lost it (due to change in attitude) and you tried getting that trait back but it was difficult?

Possibly that is the reason why I am little slow at picking things up. Also, I did notice that I need to work on my fundamentals. You keep mentioning "Socially attuned" quality and that is something I admit, I don't have that much. Even today sometimes people bracket me into the guy "who doesn't know much". I find that someone who is able to talk on a range of topics (Please note that I am not talking about a Jester) easily gets many girls which brings me back to two of your articles that I am still getting around to - "How to deep dive" and "How to provide values". I guess these things can only be learnt by pure experimentation. I don't know Chase if I should be asking you. I know you would tell me to go out and experiment, but I was wondering there has to be someway to get to that level of that guy who knows so much. For example - In my college I write simple English for my assignments. I see others especially locals like you write such high level of English and come up with amazing levels of common sense. Sometimes its like how the F do you guys come up with such sense of understanding. Is it reading newspapers? Or is it something I have to live with for the rest of my life? Being an inferior when it comes to communication and socializing?

On your previous article where you talked about faith, I used to be one of those guys who used to get frustrated easily and blame the adviser that he's talking bollocks. One way I mitigated this, again thanks to your "Devil May Care" article is having ZERO expectations i.e. Always hope for the best and expect the worst - Works wonders for me and I would probably suggest the same to people who get frustrated soon. But then again, before someone points a finger at me too - Disclaimer - what works for me may not work for you. You should also probably put disclaimers to your articles next time :P (Kidding)

I agree with arguments being a waste of time for the most part especially when you are busy, I used to waste hours and hours of my time on youtube defending my favorite tennis players or my favorite video game. A huge chunk of time, I could have used approaching girls or doing something else constructive. This perhaps, would always be the biggest regret of my life - Not committing to 100% of what skills I invested my money in. Never could become a tennis player, a violinist, gave up karate in the first class itself and DID NOT give up when I had to (pursuing a girl who had deeply friendzoned me). I still waste a LOT of time on Facebook or reading some crap. This is a habit which I am trying hard to get rid off, but struggling,.

I however see some positive results. Though I am not getting laid and all, atleast I can say that no girl is now able to take me for granted or is disrespecting me. Infact I am able to get my way to some extent. If a girl denies - I no longer get dejected. I am like chuck it, back to studies. Being in the USA, I still haven't reached the point where I can make a move on a girl which makes my friends back laugh at me.

My final question is am I constricting my options by only focusing on only night approach that too on girls in clubs? (I know you have an article which suggests not to date party girls, but I for once am willing to go through the entire experience however bad it is as long as I get laid lol). I still don't have confidence for day game. Also there are many beautiful girls in my college. But I am one of those in the rare - preferring absolute Cold Approach to social approach. By absolute cold approach, I mean having almost 0% of the girl and me coming face to face again - which is not possible in a college.

Thanks Chase. Cheers!

Chase Amante's picture

Social Skills, Cold Approach When New

Author

Tornado-

Yes, when you’re someone who goes through big changes, you’ll find yourself sometimes leaving behind skill sets only to go back and try to pick them up again later. That’s natural; usually it ends up being for the best, once you’re able to re-integrate old skills with new. Just takes a little time.

Social skills are one of those things you learn when you’re intensely socially competitive, focused on beating out others and achieving your objectives socially. There’s something about Western culture that elevates these above other skills - where in India most students might be intensely focused on engineering, programming, math, or science, in the U.S. the majority of students are focused on competing socially rather than academically (though there are still plenty of students who focus more on numbers than people). To get good at them, you need to be continually aware of your social standing relative to your peers, and always be tweaking your actions to put yourself in a better position. This takes some time to do.

As for writing and common sense - hard to say. Could just be that U.S. educations place more of a focus on presenting, debating, and group work than Indian schools do, so the students there have simply learned to make their cases, persuade, and communicate better. Again, that’s another one that’s pure learning and training - if you want it, train in it.

Cold approach and options - I spent my first few years in seduction doing predominantly cold approach in nightclubs, but I usually recommend guys start out with day game these days because it’s easier to start seeing success and you’re more likely to get cuter and saner girls. Clubs are great for testing your mettle, doing lots of approaches in quick succession, and learning how to deal with all kinds of dicey social situations, but they’re more fiercely competitive than day game is, and you end up with a worse kind of woman on average too. Clubs feel easier and less intimidating to do, but their results are not as good and they can be frustrating when you’ve still got a long way to go on fundamentals and little social nuances. If you can soldier past the frustration and fruitless nights and start picking up from them, though, you’re in good shape. But don’t discount the value of setting up dates with interested girls (from night or day) and sleeping with them on dates 1, 2, or 3 when you’re new. Everything’s worth doing until you can do it well - then you can decide what you want to do.

Chase

alan's picture

ATTITUDE PROBLEMS & GIVING UP


Howdy chase,
I`ve been reading your articles for quiet a while and i appreciate the good work.I`ve been implementing the rules for a while and most of em are really working.Now ..one of the women i`m gaming has attitude problems.I played hard to get and she`s chasing me harder.I`d give her 6 outta 10. Prob is can`t stand her attitude but i dont wanna quit with out giving a lesson either.Show me light bro....

Chase Amante's picture

Attitude

Author

Alan-

I'm unclear on what the "attitude problems" you mean are - I imagine this could be anything from insulting you to acting aloof to simply not responding the way you want her to! Also unclear what you're trying to accomplish - you said "giving a lesson" - did you mean "getting a lesson", or that you want to give the GIRL a lesson? If it's the former, perseverance might be worthwhile; if the latter, just let it go, it isn't worth wasting your time on. Men vanishing from her life in response to bad behavior is lesson enough.

Without having more detail, my guess is that this might be the article you need: "The Parting Shot."

Chase

BBJW's picture

Post asking out


Hey Chase,

I have a question today. So, retrospectively, I've noticed that after I ask a girl out on a date (always on a high note thanks to you!) I usually make an escape excuse. Sometimes I do this before asking out too.

For example:
Girl:*laughing for joke I told*
Me: *checks watch* oh! Hey, I have to head out and (insert excuse here) but I'd love chat some more, do you want to get coffee sometime?
Girl: haha, sure catch you later! (or some variant)

However, I've noticed that you usually suggest to keep the conversation going as normal, to show your calmness. Do you suggest I revise my methods?

All the Best,
BBJW

Chase Amante's picture

Asking Out & "I'm About to Leave But..."

Author

BBJW-

Yes - escape excuses, as you called them here (good name for it), make things a little awkward and contrived. They basically communicate that the other person is uncomfortable and prepping for a speedy exit in case the answer they receive isn't a good one, OR can alternately make it sound like you're tired of talking to the other person and just want to get out of there. As an example, compare two women you're talking with, one of whom says,

"Well, it's been really nice talking to you, but I have to get to a meeting now. Would you like to grab coffee sometime?"

vs.

"We should grab a coffee sometime!" --> followed by getting your details, and exiting with, "Great, I'll text you!"

The latter is more sincere - it's both higher attainability, and more attractive, too.

You don't need to give a woman a reason why you're exiting the conversation - after you get contact details, if you want to leave, you can just tell her you'll get in touch to sort out the logistics, and bid her farewell.

As for continuing on with the conversation, yes - you'll usually find it's most comfortable proposing a date and grabbing contact details in the middle of a conversation, rather than at the end. At a natural high point you can simply say, "We should get food later this week or next; how do I get in touch with you?" and then after you have her details, just keep talking. Sometimes this is even enough of a high-attainability move that it can push a girl who was on the fence with you over the fence and you'll end up picking her up then and there... instead of having to wait for the date later on.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Good morning. I was with some


Good morning.
I was with some friends from school on a beer on Wednesday and we drank all night and I came to a certain conclusion. There is a certain way you look at things and people around you, interactions, thigns to do and it changes over time. For example, I my approach to that night was "have fun, act normal, dont mind your bodylanguage, try not to share too deep stuff". And reason is in class during semester before Christmas we had a lot of fun.

Also, when I meditate I spotted my mind goes around 4 to 5 thoughts. What is a good way to think when meeting people? I trained myself over last 7 years to be more social and I sometimes had to act and basically lie with my expressions, body language or even words, voice tonality to get those people of things I did not want to talk about because I would lose face. Things that you cant talk about with some people, not even mention. Like - I am freshly 22 years old, I live with my parents and I have never had a job. My parents are quite rich, middle class I would guess, every year winter and summer holidays, plenty of food, payed for everything I needed like clothes, computer etc. People I meet have divorced parents, not that comfortable life. To me it looks like I am just scam, I would love to meet people who would accept that but my view on this is, everyone would just tell me what a loser I am. But it brings another question, should I do it this way, talking only about certain stuff with certain people? I actually talked with people differently before, I shared so much about myself that.. well I think this is better approach for me right now. To act like I am alike the person I am out with.

But my original idea was about thoughts. What is your slightly conscious thought in mind when you go through stages of interaction? I remember in one article you summed it up as "all night I was like: Oh, lets see how far can I go" while you were with some girls out and a ?bartender? had after party and only 4 of you could go. And he ditched on of his pals over you, couple-hour guy. I usually went like - hey, this girl looks attractive, I should do something with this opportunity, she is alone, good, lets go. Ok I will just talk to her and get to know her a bit. Then, she seems nice, kind, I might spot some attraction so I shift the thought to something like - ok, this is going well, lets excite her and make her laugh a bit and then ask for contact info and leave. I also once tried to be like "I am the boss, I am the shit" and I believed in that so much that when I approached this girl thought I play in a band or am some actor because I had some feeling about me as she said. Right now I feel pretty confident about what I know about women but I just need the mindsets and shifts between them because sometimes I take the interaction wrong way. Could you mention some of your "core thoughts" that shape your interactions with women or even people in general with whom you have some goal?

Regards,
Joshua

Chase Amante's picture

Sharing & Thoughts

Author

Joshua-

Normally, yeah, I'd recommend filtering what aspects of yourself you share with which people. There's discussion on that and why it's good for your interactions here: "The Conversationalist."

Of course, that's mainly when you're in a "social stage", and trying to achieve things socially. If you're at a point where you're more focused on other things than growing socially or achieving social objectives, it makes less sense to do. e.g., when I focused in closely on business, I became a lot less generous in my conversations with others and subsequently cut a lot of less compatible people out of my life, leaving me with only people who strongly supported my given goals (intense focus, business-building, etc.). That'd be bad if I was trying to upgrade my social skills - limiting how broadly you can socialize and how many reference points you gather is destructive to making progress in that area - but it's quite good when you're trying to remove distractions to focus on other areas, and people who hold and push strong opinions you're in opposition to will tend to be big distractions in this case.

On core thoughts, these change as you advance in a certain arena. These two articles, one by Cody and one by me, are good ones on the subject:

As you get progressively more experienced though, you tend to think less... if you have anything you're very skilled at (sport, art, musical instrument), you can think about your thoughts while doing this - often you're running on autopilot, or thinking about something else altogether. e.g., I might be picking up a girl, and she'll be excited and feeling like we're having an incredible, engrossing, once-in-a-lifetime connection, while I'll be thinking about things I need to do with business, or how funny it is that that couple is fighting over there in the corner and how ridiculous it is that that guy lets his woman fight with him in public, or whether my buddy is doing all right with his girl. I'll only get jarred back into the interaction if the girl starts signalling that she's ready to move to the next stage of the interaction, in which case I'll snap to and say, "Oh, okay - next step," and move it along. Then back to daydreaming.

You meet enough women, and they stop being able to come up with things that surprise you anymore. Although at times it can be good to act mildly surprised!

Chase

Prince's picture

How to tell a girl to slow down... juggling game


Heya Chase,

I can't figure out this alone. I have two girls on the go but I don't know how to juggle them unless they are cool with me having two girlfriends but you know that doesn't really work.. Seen them for a month or so. I have read some of the articles related to this but still need some advice please.

Dutch girl always texts me, wants to hang etc. (needy) the American is the opposite. They live in the same complex so I don't want to get seen/caught and hurt them.

Girl 1. Very nice Dutch girl: natural beauty, cooks, plays music, was competitive swimming etc. Girlfriend material. Haven't let her stay over.

Girl 2. An American 5'11 blonde, she's doesn't know how to cook, bit demanding etc. not girlfriend material and the world revolves around her. Has stayed over night.

Any way man the drama the American gives me is funny and different but the Dutch is clearly the best. I'm on a college program so I really want to have casual sex with others too and not be tied down. But I am afraid if I tell the girls I have been seeing someone else they might leave me... and If I don't tell them and I get caught that is even worse.

I am really in need of your advice.

Thanks bro, keep up the excellent writing. I pretty much only read your work just saying.

Chase Amante's picture

Concurrent Girls

Author

Prince-

Well, slowing things down basically requires that you be busy - when girls who are trying to speed things up want to come over more frequently, you have to just tell them that you're booked, and offer to do a night or two later (whenever it suits you). If they ever show up at your door unannounced, you HAVE to turn them away if you don't want to encourage that behavior (or simply don't answer the door if you know it's one of them).

If they live in the same complex, stick to having them come to your place, and don't go to theirs.

Having them sleep over is a no-no. Doing couple-y stuff is also a no-no.

Eventually they'll start asking you if there's anyone else or what this is turning into or whatnot, and you'll need to deal with those questions then. At that point, whether you're more afraid of losing one of them, or you're more afraid of not being able to sleep with more women, will determine which path you take, if you have those two competing interests (keep seeing this girl vs. keep sleeping with new girls). For learning purposes, it's usually better to stay out of exclusive arrangements for a while, but if you get into some here and there it isn't going to kill you.

There's no easy "do this and everything will be fine" solution for juggling multiple women, unfortunately... you're dealing with multiple people, with all kinds of competing drives and interests, plus your own, and that's messy, and is always messy no matter how much experience you've got. You'll just have to do your best to stick with good technique, keep things slow, not given in, but not be inconsiderate, either.

Lastly, I'd refer you to the articles that talk about various angles on the subject - if you haven't read some of them yet, here they are:

The first time or two you deal with situations like this, it's stressful and maddening, because it feels like you're building a house of cards and it can fall down at any moment. The more experienced with it you get though, the better able you are to sustain these arrangements, and the less you worry about what any given outcome will be.

Chase

Marcel's picture

Chase


Thank you

Alek's picture

Post asking out


Hi Chase,

I would like to ask you one question. But, before that I want to say that I have read a lot of seducation material, and about 2 years doing practice. I am really good looking, and I have strong social proof. I am using some techniques like: flirting, deep living, sexy talk,... But most girls in my enviroment dont want to invest in me, or go out with me. They dont threat me nothing different than the others average guys.
My guestion is: In your oppinion why that happens, and what should I change? I hope you will find some free time to answer me, becouse I really need your advice.
Your faithfully
Alek

Chase Amante's picture

Uninterested Girls

Author

Alek-

If you're pretty sure your fundamentals are in good shape - you're attractive, come across smoothly and powerfully, are well-liked, and you have decent game - and girls still treat you neutrally, the problem's almost always attainability. Essentially, you come across as too good of a package, and a normal girl who meets you thinks to herself, "I have no shot at this guy ever taking me seriously," so she remains neutral around you and won't allow herself to emotionally invest in you at all.

Where that's the problem, you're best served by playing around with attainability tech, like humbleness, self-deprecating humor, and warmth. What you're trying to accomplish here is sending the message to women that "I may seem almost out of your league, but I'm not *quite* out of your league, and I like you and respect you as a persona and you DO have a shot with me."

Chase

Sam2's picture

Chase


thank You

Troy's picture

Good Looks and Attainability


Hey Chase-

You talk so much about finding balance in all things related to seduction here. What ive always questioned is how do i do things in balance to prevent rather than cure. Some things you talk about a lot are:

-Moving faster with girls as possible

- Become more of a genuine man instead of a nice guy or a wicked asshole

- Use more deep diving mixed with wittiness and rapport

- Be just attainable enough without going to the extremes of too cold and aloof or too friendly and needy
and so on and so forth......
what i miss is finding balance in all things. What are some guidelines to learning and finding balance in seduction? any steps i can apply now?

A issue that has been racking my brain lately is good looks and i mentioned before that i am very physically attractive especially my face. Its not just me, girls tell me i am cute all the while and people in general say i am handsome. Colt wrote an article "How to Have Sex Regularly with New girls" and in it he states that good looking men naturally have a attainability problem and most of them usually fall far beneath the dating game while everyone moves forward. I realize that a lot of girls really like me but i am putting them in auto-rejection. Every now and again ill have a girl always calling to me and giving me hugs but after a while it fades. most times i was way too aloof (i think). other times when i was to direct or showed too much interest the girl suddenly lost interest and moved on.
Why is it that girls feel attraction for physically attractive guys but when the guy makes a move the girl runs off to be with a average guy?
I get the feeling that getting girls is harder for attractive guys compared to average guys. Is this correct or is my thinking flawed?
How do i learn attainability and get a read for what i should be doing to keep a girl interested. Also of lately i find myself not being able to speak properly and so i just remain quiet plus my mind goes blank. This causes me to stutter when talking and people laugh at me. i tried what you aid about talking slower and louder but then i feel tense and many times i pause too long and persons get bored. This mainly happens in group conversations i should add. When i am talking 1-on-1 with a girl the only problem is that if the girl isn't super chatty then i find it hell of a struggle to get a flowing conversation going.
What are some immediate steps i could take to be less boring?
For me being quiet really shows up when i am around a big group of men (group guy talk) when if i talk the loudest and wittiest guys dismiss/ignore/or genuinely didn't hear me ;reject my contribution t the conversation. Its not that they dislike me,its just that i bore the hell out of them or say something they don't relate to. That's the opposite of building an emotional connection. No wonder you say talk less and relate more but sometimes i just want to do like everyone else and talk what is on my mind and get people contributing. It would be so much easier to instead of thinking of something that interests the girl to talk about i just talk about what i feel like talking about. I once head a phrase by someone that says "talk first, think after"; and its similar to what you wrote in the article "shoot first, ask questions later". Do you agree in such a statement and would it be something that you would teach on here to help less talkative persons become more talkative?

( while typing this a male friend of mine came up and saw what i was typing here which is something i don't feel comfortable talking in public with people i know. i just shut my tablet case shut and said it was private and he could'nt see it. he just laughed and it was embarrassing. how do i react after such a situation? also on a previous occasion i had on my privacy app lock but took it off to fix it up and my friend opened my PDF to stumble up on my "getting girls folder" when i was looking at it earlier that day. VERY EMBARASSING. What could i do now if my friend knows that i am reading up information to get better with girls?)

-Troy

Troy's picture

Tablet Stolen, Loss of Motivation,& Bouncing Back Quickly


As a follow up comment, i bought my tablet computer at the first week of MARCH AND IT WAS STOLEN TODAY BY SOMEONE AT SCHOOL AND I DIDNT LEAVE IT CARELESSLY. I had set out in my new year resolution to start using the forum more often but now i am back to the start. I just feel like giving up because every time i do something to advance myself someone comes and takes it away from me. the worst thing is that my tablet doesnt come with any tracker device so its gone for good. Now i have a rough time and its going to be a next 2 or 3 months of saving up money from zero again to buy a new one. Have you ever had such a thing happen to you? How can i get back my motivation after such a big loss and a set back in my progress?

I tend to learn easiest when i can write down my interactions after going out and tracking my progress but now i will be just waiting until i buy one more to get back to full swing. And if something similar like this happened to you before, could you give me some insights as to how to bounce back?

I just feel like throwing in the towel now just knowing that because of a thief that i will suffer and im feeling so depressed and angry right now. I just really want to get good with girls but now im suffering. :(

a friend in need of motivation please and thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Looks, Conversation, and Tablet PCs

Author

Troy-

Good looks can make it annoyingly more difficult when you’re not there yet socially, yes. Women will assume if you’re good-looking that you must be good with girls, and if you’re not, they’ll tend to wonder what’s wrong with you. So they can be more of a handicap than anything when you’re not very good yet.

That said, if you can get to the place where you ARE good with girls, good looks are nothing but a boon. I know a lot of guys who are very good with girls, and I’d say about half of them are very good-looking - a lot more than a random sample of the population. Girls swoon just seeing them, although they all have great wit, sexual game, and escalation as well. I’m not often jealous of results other guys get, but when I roll with my very good-looking friends who also have very good game, I occasionally am.

Re: talking, well, keep in mind, most people will talk a lot if they have a firmly-formed friend group where everyone is already comfortable with one another and they know what they can talk about without causing a stir or getting booted from the group. When you put a group of people who are all strangers together, you will tend to find most people are a lot less social, even those who normally talk up a storm with their friend groups. That’s because they haven’t learned the lay of the land of the group yet, socially (what does the group talk about; what are the group’s likes and dislikes; what is the culture of the group). That’s why it’s better to be tight-lipped with new people; much of the time, especially with pickup and socializing, you’re entering other people’s groups with established cultures, and if you start talking about what interests YOU, without any mind to what the group ALSO is interested in (because you haven’t had time to learn that yet), there’s a fair chance the group will lose patience with you pretty quickly and jettison you from itself.

Once you’re more familiar with a group, you’ll find it’s pretty easy to talk about the topics the group finds interesting, and you can talk as much as you want. e.g., with my pickup friends, we can talk about girls and dating and sex and relationship all day, and I can talk non-stop if I want and it’s all good because they enjoy hearing what I have to say and I enjoy hearing what they have to say. If I talked about this stuff with one of my business friends though, he might be intrigued for a few minutes, but he’d pretty quickly get bored and think I was being petty for worrying about all this girl stuff when I could be talking about making piles of money instead. So when I’m with business friends, we talk about business and money and investing and taxes and marketing and hiring, and I can talk all day about that and so can they and all of us are interested. If some new person joined one of these groups and started going on and on about piloting an airplane, as interesting as that is in and of itself, each respective group is going to get tired of the conversation pretty quickly and look to nudge the guy out for not fitting in.

Re: the tablet, that sucks. I haven’t had anything that big stolen from me, but I did have smaller things stolen from me when younger, and it’s always left me kind of paranoid of this. I don’t get mad if someone punches me in the face, but if someone steals (or tries to steal) something of mine, it INFURIATES me. My face will heal, and I can always retaliate; something being stolen though, you don’t know who took it, you usually can’t PROVE they took it, even if you have suspicions, and you’re basically just a disrespected chump. Just sucks.

All you can really do is go out of your way to secure your possessions; e.g., I have a combination lock on my computer bag that I keep on wherever I take it; I don’t put it down. I’ve also learned not to leave jackets lying around if I don’t want to lose them. I had a lot of friends have coats stolen at parties in university, and as a result I never took mine off, no matter how hot a party got; I got loose about this rule after school, and lost a couple of expensive jackets in quick succession at bars and other places. Learned my lesson, and went back to not taking jackets off again anymore. Usually won’t even coat check my coat in nightclubs, unless it’s EXTREMELY hot (also makes for getting in and out quicker without having to wait for the coat check line - quite valuable when you’ve got a girl you’re trying to pull, but the clock is ticking on her willingness to sneak out of there with you).

Pro tip: if you don’t want your stuff stolen, by used & old. People are a lot less likely to go out of their way to steal a beat up old tablet than they are a shiny brand new one, and the beat up old one (assuming you take it for a test drive before you buy it) is usually going to work just as well. My first iPhone was a scratched, nicked, beat up iPhone 3G I bought at a steep discount off a guy who was rushing out to buy the new iPhone 4 in 2010. My present iPhone? Still that same iPhone 3G I bought in 2010. It’s served me well, and I have no reason to replace it any time soon. Most people by shiny new things as status symbols, but they’re marginal status symbols at best; there are plenty more effective ways you can make yourself look good than a nice pocket or hand-held machine.

Chase

V's picture

Chase


Chase, based on your personal experience.

1. how can you tell if someone is soft or an easy target?

2.How can you tell if he's a soft trying to be hard tough guy?

3.How can you tell if a guy is really tough? ( I don't mean like to the extreme, I mean you know he's no pushover)

On changing people's past perceptions, how do I show that I'm more tough than I was before? Without fighting and such? Do I just act less friendly?

Thank you!!!!

Chase Amante's picture

Fake Tough vs. Real Tough

Author

V-

1. Little micro-expressions of self-consciousness, unconfidence, signs of frustration when he doesn’t know how to respond socially (guys who are legitimate, self-assured tough guys may not always be smart, but they have no problem expressing themselves pretty much ever), lack of assertiveness, being overly yielding or too nice, having a soft voice (not deep, resonant, loud, or gravelly), slumped over body language, poor eye contact

2. He attacks and retreats - he’ll put himself out there, then flinch a bit or clam up and brace for impact. He might make a comment and then stop to gauge everyone else’s reaction. He’ll do things like challenge someone, then look around to see if he has others’ support. He wants to make sure he isn’t upsetting anyone or breaking the rules - he’s a follower and not a leader

3. Opposite of 1 and 2

If you want to show you’re tough… be the opposite of 1 and 2. Be strong, assertive, confident, self-assured; not necessarily a dick; you don’t HAVE to be an asshole, though it can help to learn this if you’re not; don’t go around challenging people for no reason, which is another thing faux-tough guys do, usually by challenging weaker people to try to stack up “victories” in others eyes to make themselves look tougher; legitimate tough guys know what they’re doing though, and sometimes will get annoyed and tool these guys (a legitimate tough guy doesn’t pick on people because he doesn’t need it to inflate his status; he will sometimes pick on wannabe tough guys to stop them from sewing bad vibes among a group).

Chase

Tico's picture

thank you


thank you

Peacer's picture

Dear chase, I have a question


Dear chase,

I have a question in mind for some time now. Though I tried... to find an answer reading lot of stuff here for some time now, I still haven't felt that I have found a clear answer. So, I think you are the best person to ask this.

I wonder whether you ever had to face this kind of issue in your life because you always date with new girls. But I know there was a period, you were much more a relationship-focused kind of guy as you have mentioned it in this, Self-Expansion and Growth in Relationships article. So you may have better idea about this. My question is,

When someone is in a long-term relationship with a girl and when the time start to pass and sex life is fading away regularly, how someone can introduce novelty to their sex life... ?

I mean, when you are dating new girls and having sex with them regularly, this won't be an issue. Because she is new to you, and you are new to her too. So both of you have excitement, attraction, novelty, it is always there.
But, when you are in a long-term relationship how can you maintain novelty in your sexual life.. ? When it fades away, what can you do.. ?

Thank you.

Chase Amante's picture

Long-Term Novelty

Author

Peacer-

See my response to you here (on page 2 of the comments): "Long-Term Novelty."

Chase

Balla's picture

Sexual questions/ Interview skills


Hey chase, im always in the hot seat for sexual questions and I'd like some help answering them. There's two incidents where im being questioned like this. Playing drinking games and in school. It's all in front of a lot of people and I don't know what to do. There's also different radio shows I might be on asking these questions and I want to know if the answers should be the same?

I don't know how I should answer these questions to sound cool.
The questions I mostly get are:

1. What age did you lose your virginity?
2. How many girls have you slept with?
3. Are you sleeping with a lot of girls now?
4. How many girls did I sleep with from the high school I went to?

My problem is I wasn't as prolific as I am now with women and it's very hard for me to lie and I'll feel I'll get caught lying and it'll blow up in my face. I don't want to tell the truth either and sound like a lame dude either.

5. What's a smooth way to talk about my past of no success, should I just lie?

What are some good ways to answer these questions without it sounding like im lying and or lame? I want smooth, cool, and believable answers. Thanks

When getting interviewed on a radio station or video. How do i remain calm, how should I act and how do I answer questions I get flying at me so quick with thousands of people that can hear my answers?

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Sensitive Questions in Interviews

Author

Balla-

If you’re one-on-one with a girl, usually better to counter those questions with, “What do you think? What’s your guess?” and then once you have her answer to tell her she’s close and give her an answer right around what she guessed. If she won’t guess, then just tell her you guess she’ll never know.

When you’re in front of a group of people, if you can answer honestly and just be nonchalant, that’s probably best, as you’ll be more comfortable and more “real” if you’re straight about it. e.g., if you don’t have an impressive number of past lovers, you can just give the number and say, “I was on my grind in school for a while, so I’m only at 6, but I’m working on catching up, don’t worry!” If the situation permits, it may also be worthwhile to be vague in a “I’m a storied lover, but I don’t want to sound too crazy so let’s not talk about this so much” sort of way, though that might be hard to pull off if you’re not a storied lover.

You can sometimes just give a range for number questions too, like, “Virginity: I lost it somewhere between [young age] and [present age]… I’ll let you try and figure out where in there it was.” Some might try to tool you by saying you just lost it your present age, and you’ll laugh and say, actually, it was just a couple of weeks ago, shh, don’t tell nobody; others will say you lost it at 11, and you’ll laugh and crack a joke about Mrs. Robinson.

If you want a smooth way to talk about lack of success, just make a brief joke about it: “My past consists of lots of beautiful women… mostly me putting some moves on them and getting rejected.”

Chase

African boyo's picture

Flakes in LTRs


Hi chase

I read your article on managing flakes in terms of dates and girls youre yet to sleep with but how do you handle an increasing number of flakes with girls youve slept with and are in a LTR with. Do you still act calm?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Flakes in LTRs

Author

Boyo-

Increasing flaking in an LTR is typically a very bad sign... usually one that your relationship is circling the drain. It can be a sign a girl is cheating, or just one that she's getting so worn out by the relationship that she just isn't all that interested in seeing you anymore.

Usually by the time you're seeing this, it's more or less too late to fix, as she's fallen out of love with you and become disillusioned with you. Even if you turn it around, it'll still be a, "Well, he fixed things once he could tell I was on my way out, but it only ever happened because he thought he was going to lose me... not because we're sincerely connected."

The exception is if you catch it very early, and/or it's not about you - e.g., if she has some other crisis in her life (sick family member, etc.) - but in that case, you've got to sit her down and be frank with her - e.g., "Hey, look - you're flaking a lot, you're not showing up, something's going on. What's the deal? Why are you suddenly no longer available?" Be calm, be neutral, but insist on getting a straight answer and refuse to settle for half answers ("Sorry, I'm just not feeling that good lately" --> "Bullshit, what is it? Don't give me a nothing answer, I want to know what's going on in your head"). Just keep going until you get the honest answer - then you can address it.

Chase

Jo Rogan's picture

Integration


Meeting girls and learning to play a piano are both skills. But, there's a huge difference between those 2.

First, approaching, meeting, sleeping with girls is a part of life and basic social interactions. If you are a football player, business owner, actor etc, you will be with higher quality and more girls than if you weren't any of those.
So, being successful at something non-related to meeting girls (as a skill) and contributing to society by doing/creating something millions of people enjoy/use can influence your success with girls a lot.

On the other hand, being a football player, business owner or an actor will not help you in learning to play a piano. You will have to study it as a separate skill, isolated from almost everything you do.

Also, meeting females and sleeping with them has been around for billions of years (many species before humans), while playing a piano is a recent thing more related to humans and that's why you need to study it separately.

Integration is the key. At the same time you can become a successful man in other areas and attract amazing girls into your life. Then, you won't have to fake abundance mentality with everything and feel better, because you're actually contributing to the world and doing other things you like.

Anonymous's picture

Public Speech


Hey Chase. Any quick tips on being confident and being able to speak publicly with ease?
Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Public Speech

Author

Anon-

Well, I'm not an expert... I speak publicly from time to time, but there are plenty of people more experienced with a lot more to say on the subject than I am.

Personally, aside from "lots of practice", I'd recommend starting with material you know front and back and know that you have a lot of good things to say on. The times I've talked publicly and been about to fall all over myself have been the times when I was talking on subjects I wasn't the most informed on and was struggling to come up with good things to say (or, alternately, when I was on stage with big spotlights in my eyes and seats filled with audience members in front of me, and lines and scenes I hadn't well rehearsed to act out. Painful...).

It's probably also best to know your style - whether you're someone who likes to have something memorized and on cards or a teleprompter or you like to riff. I'm more of a riffer, and I can riff well and talk off the cuff about topics I enjoy and be mildly engaging.

Another one is probably teaching - if you've ever taught a class, that's a whole lot of public speaking right there (plus having to engage and entertain and defuse tension and deal with students test the boundaries you if they're young and uppity). Something I've noticed with Ted Talks is that the best, most assured, and most engaging presenters are invariably all teachers - people who spend hours a day 5 or more days a week standing in front of an audience of students, just speaking. If you get a chance to teach a class for a while, there's little better for your skills as an orator than this (maybe being a lawyer or a preacher might be up there with this).

Chase

The M's picture

Unresponsive, unshaken


Hey Chase - two more!

How do you persuade someone who's being unresponsive? Say when you want to talk/say something important to a family member who just doesn't want to talk with you/listen to you at that moment for whatever reason. Whenever I try to push/use logic/get angry the results aren't good.

And second, in heated situations/arguments, how do you keep yourself physically and mentally calm and, more importantly, non-judgmental? I get all shaky and upset (duh, I'm angry). Deep breathing and aiming to keep a relaxed perspective seem to help, but it's hard for me.

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Unresponsive, unshaken

Author

M-

When someone's being unresponsive, it's because they've judged you as utterly unwilling to listen to them and totally not "getting it", so they've elected to just shut you off completely. The way to get in dialogue with them and get something you can work with is not to keep pushing your own views, which they're completely ignoring and don't care about a bit, but rather to press them on explaining themselves to you: "Why are you doing that? I don't understand! I need you to explain it to me. Explain to me. Why? Why must it be done this way? I don't understand the rationale. I need an explanation. Why is this the way you have to do it? I'm going to keep asking you until you tell me why it is. We're not doing anything else until I understand this. Why?"

Everyone wants his voice to be heard and to feel understood, and eventually he will tell you why. Once he has, you can then work with him within his own framework to understand why he does what he does, and help him to examine his own methods and determine whether they really are the best way of doing things or not.

Basically, just because YOU want to say something doesn't mean anyone else wants to listen. But if you get HIM to do the talking, you can almost always do this. Seek first to understand, then to instruct. No one will listen to you who does not first feel understood himself.

Getting shaky and upset... hmm. That doesn't happen to me TOO much, but if someone sufficiently flips my triggers, I'll flip into rage mode like that too, yeah. Only thing I can say there is try to be less attached to the outcome, but that's almost always just from having more options. If you don't want to get too upset about being turned down for a job, make sure you've applied to a lot of other jobs you like almost as much, for instance. You'll tend to react more emotionally when you feel cornered... so, if you don't want to feel that way, just don't let yourself be cornered.

Chase

Gem's picture

Accomplishments and age


Chase I wanted to ask about something that's been on my mind lately.

I've been working very actively in a number of different areas of my life lately towards improving and being excellent (self improvement essentially; I've been doing some targeted work, cut my reading time a little bit and added in more work/output time).

Various mentors of mine I realize all started young, however, some started older than others (mid 20's even late 20's; you mention how you started approaching women actively sometime in your twenties). My question here is does it make a significant difference whether a guy starts building towards large successes at age 20 vs age 25? If you start younger do you necessarily get the chance to accomplish more or accomplish greater things? If someone were inhibited creatively at a younger age, would their output be the same if created a few years later (or would they be able to create that work at all)?

Many similar questions that could be asked here; I realize there are probably a variety of factors at play here and additionally I realize that the distinction of "doing things young" is key here (because after a certain age, you aren't young and are limited in some ways to the types of successes you may make).

Interested in your thoughts on this; also this sort of ties in/ is relevant to a forum post of yours from a while back:

http://www.girlschase.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4911

Maybe you could include a little about that, and maybe it ties in to my first question

Thanks,

Gem

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Accomplishments and age

Author

Gem-

You'd think so, especially with the focus in the media on 20-something billionaire IT entrepreneurs. You hit 30 and start thinking, "Holy crap, I have nothing significant to my name and I'm a third of the way or more through my life already. Life's passed me by!"

Yet, there's a lot of good reason to not be too worried about this. If you study most successful businessmen, including most very wealthy founders, their successes normally come after decades of amassing industry experience. The founders of the U.S. transcontinental railroads are a great example; they're mostly all self-made men who slowly worked their way up dealing in iron parts or steam ships, and eventually switched over to railroads around ages 40 or 50 and took the money they'd already made and turned that into vast fortunes. It's a similar story for most tech entrepreneurs; the average founder of an IT "unicorn" (super successful web startup business worth in the billions) was age 43 and had two children. Typically, you need to spend a long time getting familiar with an industry, learning its ins and outs, and amassing domain expertise before you're really able to have any kind of breakaway success.

Other great examples are the founders of various religions - Jesus, despite getting a pretty early start with preaching and miracle-working, didn't become known until he was around 30 (and died soon thereafter); Siddhartha Gautama didn't become known until he was advanced in age, some 300 years before Jesus; and Muhammad, the founder of Islam, was a simple merchant with nothing noteworthy about him until the age of 40, at which point he first began building his religious and political empire. The story of Abraham, founder of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion tree, is very similar to this; according to the Old Testament, he was 75 when he first heard Yahweh (though the Old Testament also states he died at age 175, too).

Much of the time, the foundational learning that contributes to later success does not feel like anything incredible or amazing while you're doing it. The mind often spends the first 30 or 40 years of life figuring out what it wants to do, before taking that information and using it to form a collective, concrete vision. Other times, you can have a vision even when you're younger, but lack the skills and resources to pull it off, so you take a few decades putting those together to make your vision a reality.

"Greatness" itself (however you define it - making a mark in history, usually) is something of a crapshoot - only a small handful of individuals pursue the kind of hard skill-building and opportunity chasing that it takes to achieve it, but even fewer of them strike on just the right combination of skills and inspiration to really get there. There are plenty of "almost great" people left by the wayside in history (and greatness is a very relative term - the more you zoom out in history, the less great any great man's legacy looks compared to all the other ones there are).

I don't think it's usually possible to know what you will do later in life, largely because what you will do later in life tends to be the result out of putting together various pieces from what you've done earlier in life. e.g., the railroad tycoons - none of them set out saying, "I will build a great railroad." Instead, they set out saying, "Let's see if I can get good at this iron parts business," or, "Let me try and be great at steam ships," or, "I'll bet I can build a great local bank," and later on they were able to take their knowhow and resources and leverage that to become the ones who built the railroads, left their marks, and became extremely wealth in the process. Part of that is luck - luck that they were in the right fields to be able to capitalize on new locomotive technology - and the other part is just that they spend a few decades working hard to learn their respective businesses and amass their fortunes for they knew not what. Had they chosen other fields, they might not have had those opportunities (but then, maybe they've been in the oil or electricity or textiles or agricultural equipment businesses instead), but had they not worked as hard to learn the ins and outs of their businesses and hold onto the money they made, they wouldn't have had the knowledge bases to wade into the new area of rail transport, or the resources to do so, either.

For most "great" men, it seems that the first 4 or 5 decades of life are spent building the foundation for greatness, while not until middle age does greatness actually set in. Some exceptions are new academic disciplines, like physics was when Newton and Einstein first laid hands on it; if you read Talent is Overrated though, you'll find even in these fields now, the average age a physicist is when he makes his breakthrough discovery is getting later and later in life as the field matures more and more and requires greater and greater domain expertise in to make new contributions.

Chase

Marek's picture

Hello Chase, We talk with


Hello Chase,

We talk with friends lately about girls, we are 23 years old mostly and my 25yo friend usually says women in 23 - 27 range are out because we are too young for them. I have some friends in this group who date same aged girls but to me it seems they just settled for what they found. Also girls seem to want a guy who is above them. I attract very young girls around 17-18 but I think that is my hairstyle making me look quite boyish and I can grow only a light beard.

Also, as we discuss life and its endeavours, we stuck up on a thing - that what you do, accomplish or partake in should be held in highest shelfs of your esteem and you should not care if someone else does not think it is that awesome. Only thing that matters is it is awesome to you because everyone does what he does, what he wants to do or feels needs to be done. But in our society we know that actress or model is more impressive job than baker. One other writer here wrote about biological attractiveness and social attractiveness. With this concept my guess would be a normal guy, who has some small business that he likes, is passionate about, some , can date some world class actress or whover, because the guy does what he wants to do, he follows his path provided that he is biologically attractive and second reason is, his lifestyle is kinda similar to this actress or any other high class lady. What is your take on this?

Marek

Chase Amante's picture

Older Women, Celebrities

Author

Marek-

It's absolutely possible to land older girls if you like - check out this article on exactly that subject: "Younger Men and Older Women."

On a small business owner dating a world class actresses: yes, I can see it, provided that a.) the small business owner is around celebrities enough that he isn't flustered or intimidated by her, and he knows and understands her world and its inner workings, and b.) they're able to run into each other (usually, they're going to tend to run in different circles). If you want some support for that, just look at how many celebrity singers and actresses date or sleep with their body guards, managers, etc.

You'll also notice a lot of celebrity women tend to marry writers, directors, composers, and other men who are high status in their worlds, but not necessarily in front of the limelight all the time themselves, though not usually men from completely outside of their spheres. My recommendation would be that for a man who wants something long-term with one of these women, he plant his roots in the industries they work in and focus on rising as high as he wants to shoot there. The higher status the women he wants to shoot for, the higher status in that industry he should aim to be... though the good news is, the highest status Hollywood stars are rarely the most beautiful, but instead simply the most talented or, more often, the ones with the most buzz at the moment.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

I need a serious state shift


hi Chase,

I slept with this girl a year ago, I'd been seriously in love with her for 3 years before, we went to bed but she was not interested in a relationship with me. I can't get her out of my mind. To make things worse I checked out her fb profile a few days ago and I saw she has a boyfriend now. I broke down emotionally. I realized there must have been a ray of hope at the back of my head and I'm afraid I will always have it for her. It doesn't matter who I sleep with. I slept with girls before her but I thought about her and now even when I'm extremely attracted to a girl it's only an attraction on an sexual level. Emotionally I'm still with her.
You wrote a brilliant article on depression and brain patterns and how it all works. Do you know any ways hot to get rid of images. I have these pictures poping into my head at the least expected moments, at work or when I'm with other girls, the images of her, her looking into my eyes, having orgasm, her naked, me taking off her clothes... I can't kick these pics out of my head and they crash me and drain me emotionally and nothing seems to make sense... how to get rid of the remains of her in my head because on a logical level I KNOW I'll never be with her... only my mind doesn't want to comprehend this fact, why? how does it work and how to rewire my thoughts, can one control such things? Or they must pass away naturally - with time as they say...

Chase Amante's picture

Stuck on a Past Lay

Author

Anon-

That happens. The reason it happened to you was because you had the build up and anticipation you did before finally getting to sex... the longer you long for her, the more intense the consummation is for you when it finally happens. Feelings-wise, the only way you feel this way again is by longing for another girl just as long and just as badly and then finally getting together with her... since it's rare for men to sleep with women they've been pining over so long, that's pretty unlikely to repeat (unless you go become very good with girls, and then intentionally draw out a seduction this long to create those intense emotions).

You can get over the pictures in your head, but same as with depression, they're caused by rumination (you spent years training your brain to think about her again and again and again), and you've got some deep ruts and default pathways carved into your neural circuitry (basically, the neuronal pathways that thoughts and memories of her travel along have just been growing more and more connected to each other and other parts of your brain as you think about her more and more - sort of like a busy freeway right through the middle of town, all roads lead there sooner or later). That means you've got to forcibly take yourself off that path (stay off the highway) if you want it to grow over.

The easiest way is just by meeting and sleeping with new women, and not only doing this, but forcing yourself to think of THEM whenever you start thinking of THIS girl. Back when this used to happen to me, I used to prefer to do this with girls I liked less - I'd pick girls I wasn't all that into, and project my thoughts on them. You've got to be careful though, because if you throw too much obsessing over at any one girl, you WILL start getting as emotionally stuck on her as you are on that past girl - another reason why it's important to meet a lot of new girls (and keep spreading those intense emotions you're giving yourself onto a collection of different women).

It takes a little while, and the emotions don't go away COMPLETELY until you've taken some other girlfriends that surpass this one, but eventually your emotions do cool off.

If you haven't already read it, "Can't Stop Thinking About Her? Here's Why You Need to Meet More Girls" is a worthwhile article on this subject.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

one more thing


and one more thing I also don't understand why a human being gets so jealous. I sort of understood a couple of months ago that it's finished and probably she will never be with me but seeing her with somebody else simple kills me. The fact that other man is fucking her makes me want to die. seriously, this is how I feel. How to get rid of this jealousy it's so harmful and totally useless. I read your article about the one but the images keep banging into my head anyway.

Chase Amante's picture

Jealousy

Author

Anon-

Jealousy prompts mate-guarding behavior... very useful from a natural selection standpoint if you've aligned yourself with a partner you have some degree of control over whom you know or suspect is receptive to other mates (even if I'd argue you're better off dumping her and finding a girl who isn't going to be a constant cuckoldry risk), though not so useful if you don't actually hold any sway on the mating behavior of the object of your obsession.

Again, the only way to get over this is to project your feelings onto someone else; find other girls, and force yourself to think about them, instead of this girl. Give yourself no wiggle room; every time thoughts of her surface again, channel them away.

Chase

J$'s picture

I feel like girls don't like me


Hi chase, I just feel like im not suppose to get girls and that girls just don't like me. I don't feel attractive enough or cool enough for them. I feel all they want is money, fame, access, and a gut that just has status. I feel I need things that are out of my control or I have to really put work into get. I remember I was reading on your site how guys push into their careers and still don't get girls. I just feel girls don't like me and especially girls I don't even know cold approaching. I feel like a loser and a lame. I feel like I don't have what girls want.

What do I have to do to change my thoughts? And do you think you think you could make an article about how I feel about myself and correcting it?

I appreciate it so much, thank you.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: I feel like girls don't like me

Author

J$-

That's two of the Big 3 things most inexperienced guys think women only want:

  • Looks,
  • Money, or
  • Status

While all can be important parts of attraction, they function in different ways. I talked about looks here: "How Much Do Looks Matter for Romantic Success?"

I discussed the role wealth can play in short-term hook ups here: "How Conspicuous Consumption Helps Men Get Laid", although most men (including most wealthy men) do not use their wealth in ways that help them much with short-term flings (though wealth can help if they're going the boyfriend route), and in fact often use it in ways that actually hurt them sleeping with girls (e.g., they're the anti-lover... the guy the girl wants to keep around and really slow game it with).

Status is important, but it's highly relative, and if you're focused on improving your fundamentals you will very quickly take on the appearance and demeanor of a high status man. While women might go crazy for rock stars, they don't tend to meet a whole lot of them in their day-to-day lives (or ever), and instead are more looking for men who are somewhat higher status than them, rather than men who are TREMENDOUSLY higher status than them.

Because of the way attainability and auto-rejection work, most men who are significantly higher status than a woman are automatically out of the running for her affections, simply because she's engaged in ego protection by not allowing herself to be emotionally accessible to them (and end up crushed when they don't want her).

If your fundamentals aren't good, or your attainability is out of whack, girls won't respond well to you, so these are usually the first two places to look if it feels like girls don't like you. I'd also be sure to read the article on victim mentality and realize that that usually plays a role in this kind of thinking as well.

I'll note this one down for an article (maybe soon), but in the meantime - check out your fundamentals (it's probably that), and start figuring out ways you can upgrade yourself with girls.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Something coaches never talk


Something coaches never talk about is when to introduce your name to a girl. What's your take on this?

Chase Amante's picture

When to Trade Names

Author

Anon-

Immediately after your first statement of interest or agreement:

Direct:

You: Excuse me... I saw you walking here, and I just had to come tell you... that... you have the most stunning hair I have seen all day. I'm Bill.

Implied or indirect direct:

You: Are you single?

Her: Umm, yeah... why do you ask?

You: I don't know... you just have this very appealing way about you. I'm Chuck.

Situationally relevant:

You: If this bus comes any more quickly, we should be on it in about 55 minutes.

Her: [laugh] Yeah, I wonder what's taking so long.

You: I'll be the driver stopped off for a hoagie somewhere.

Her: Or he's locked in the bathroom.

You: Probably that. I'm Darren.

Gets rid of the awkwardness of being strangers and not knowing who one another are, and provides a sort of, "Whew, what a relief," moment when you do it early into the interaction instead of waiting until it gets weird.

Chase

Wolf's picture

POF


Hey Chase, I wanna just test the waters of online dating. So I just made a profile for another state to work on my text and maybe phone game.

I'd like some tips though:
1. I tried to find how I can hide my profile from the search list but can't find it. Where is it located?

2. Some girls look too good to be true. Meaning they are either catfish or god forbid trannies. Ive seen some really girly looking trannies. How do you tell if it's a catfish or tranny?

3. Im paranoid people will save my pic. Is that something to be worried about?

4. How can I stall things out and just make this into straight talking? I don't want them to have my number and I don't want to meet up. I just want to talk to them for a while and keeps things going without getting stale.

5. How do you know the girls won't try to set you up?

Thanks man.

Chase Amante's picture

POF / Tension

Author

Wolf-

Do a Google search for "hide POF profile from search." First link that comes up. Don't worry about being catfished or "set up"; if you're focused on getting her out in person ASAP, and not engaging in protracted online conversations that involve you handing over your bank account login information, you'll be fine. Trannies usually have "TS" (transsexual) in their profiles or otherwise will let you know outright they are not "born women." I think most people who skim pictures (for advertisements or fake online dating profiles) get them off of Facebook, not POF, which puts a watermark on the pictures... but if they steal yours anyway, that's probably a compliment and means they think you're pretty handsome, so kudos I guess! I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't suggest trying to have extended online chats with women; it's not a skill set you're ever going to use in anything else, and it's not a good parallel with talking to them in person, or even over text. Plus, most women are either going to want to meet up with you or stop talking to you, and the ones who engage in long conversations with you will train you to fixate on women who will lead you on because they want you as a source of validation, instead of women who want you as a man.

As for intimidation, other than the articles on being solid and socially imposing on the site here, I'd suggest studying men in movies who come across as powerful and intimidating, hitting the gym and putting on some muscle, and taking up a martial art to get more confident in your ability to whip another man in a fight.

As for people wanting to embarrass you... yeah, not doing freaky things would be a good start (no having sex with goats in your Facebook pictures, Wolf). But a bigger one is not LETTING yourself be embarrassed... if someone started harassing me for having a Facebook picture of me and a barnyard animal in a compromising position, I'd simply respond with, "Hey... that horse was really lonely that night," and we'd all have a laugh together (and everyone would think I was just a little bit cooler than they did BEFORE that incident - it's not the incident itself, it's how you handle it).

Chase

Balla's picture

Telling girls before hand


Chase, I just read an article by black dragon, where he says he tells his dates before the date if he will pay or he won't pay for the girl. He says he does this so she won't cause drama. Should we do this or just let it ride out?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Telling girls before hand

Author

Balla-

Hmm, that's an interesting strategy, hadn't heard it before.

BD's a somewhat older gent (in his early 40s I believe) who goes for mostly younger girls and tends to come across as very much a provider candidate from what I gather of his online game, so this seems likely to be something of a boyfriend disqualifier he's employing here to weed out the girls whom he senses are looking for some kind of committed relationship out of him.

In that case I'd say, if you have girls you sense are feeling you out for boyfriend candidacy, this might be something worthwhile to run with, yeah. If you're pretty firmly in the lover camp with a certain girl, and there's no fear of her seeing you as a potential boyfriend or more, you ought to be safe doing without.

Chase

bellastrata_bi_girl's picture

what are the odds?


Ciao Chase Amante,

I know it's like asking Tarantino if I can see his movie without watching it, but I'll have a go. Chase, do you think it's possible to make a move without making a move? Ok, I'll try to make myself more clear. If I want to pick up a man or be picked up by a man the story is simple, all I have to do is signal, give the green light and there you go, cappucino or black, your place or mine. Beautiful. The thing is, how can I sometimes pick up a girl?

Even if a cold approach between me and a man is far from literalness, at one point you see the obvious. Is it possible to perform some sort of cold approach without this transparency of intentions, you know, in case she's not interested it still looks like I wasn't trying anything or in case she gets nervous and wants to freak out you can alwawys make it look like 'oh, it's not a big deal, c'mon'?

The thing is, you see, that if it comes to hooking up with a girl I can't rely on online dating entirely. I tend to be very picky and diving online, giving your time is just like looking for a needle in a pile of hay. Once I get out with somebody and I don't like her (what usually happens) I can't get away from her, I'm bombarded with texts, emails and phone calls even when I get too aloof and cool things off. So looks like online dating doesn't really work for me.

I had some situations in my life I was with a girl from work, but she was a secretary not connected with me really so I could try things and it turned into a very nice romance.
So, here comes the dilemma, people generally don't know I'm also interested in girls. What I don't like in life is killing the mystery, you know, when folks you work with basically know everything about you. In my case, they don't. However, recently I've been thinking, what if they did? Would it increase my chances of hooking up with both sexes? I can see some people are intrigued by me, but it's easy to confuse intrique with attraction. Like any form of art can be really interesting and inspiring and what usually kills it, like a movie, a song, a painting, is the literalness and stating the obvious. So, I have some women at work who are either just intrigued or maybe attracted. There's a woman who keeps throwing hints like sending me Ellen's show parts on facebook or telling me the other day she's attracted to Asian girls or looking into my eyes way too long, you know.

What actually adds to the difficulty of the situation is the fact that at work I'm a tad higher in the hierarchy, I'm not their boss, I'm a freelancer however practically it all boils down to them being a little under me and listetning to my instructions. It could make it a little uncomfortable to ask a girl 'hey let's go and grab a bite after work."

Anyways, even outside a work environment, I go to different festivals and galleries a lot and sometimes I see a woman and I think - u la la hot and she has the style that to my radar she "could be" but how can I come up to her and strike a casual conversation not being that obvious?

I've always been very closed about my private life and now I thought maybe I should test the waters? I'm far from official coming out "hello I'm bi" but maybe dropping more hints here and there could get me laid more often?
But hey, here I am with the same question, is it possible to perform very subtle and innocent-looking cold approach? You never know, chances are some of the women I run into day in day out think the same?

B.

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