Time Orientation and Suitable Romantic Pairings


time orientationI recently had a girl invite me to watch Sex and the City with her. She'd newly discovered the television show after never having really watched it before, and was suddenly addicted.

"Ugh," I said. "No thanks. But knock yourself out."

"Come on, please!" she protested. "It's so much fun!"

"Fun for women," I replied. "Men do not enjoy Sex and the City."

"That's not true!" she said. "It's a great show for men AND women!"

"It's a bunch of women who have no idea what they want doing the same things over and over again, never able to realize they're trapped in a perpetual loop of meaningless emotion–chasing," I responded. "There's little self–discovery, and loads of gossip, which is of course quite interesting to women, but like nails on a chalkboard to men."

She started watching an episode by herself, and soon called out to me, "You're right, I can see why women really like this and men don't!"

But I wanted to think about it some more. Why do women like that show so much, and why don't men? Certainly, there are exceptions – women who think it's trite, and men who think it's wonderful – but they're not the norm.

What I realized was that it's part gossip – women use gossip to stay informed on who's a desirable mate, who's an available mate, and who isn't – which is pretty useless to men but pretty vital to women – but it's also about time orientation... a little thing most people don't think much about, but that has huge implications for their dating lives and relationships.


time orientation

When I first started working to come out of my shell socially, one of the tasks I set for myself was surrounding myself with as many thrill–seeking types as I possibly could. They had to be educated and intelligent thrill–seekers... but thrill–seekers nevertheless.

My friends were thrill–seekers; the women I dated were thrill–seekers. They lived for the moment; theirs were lives of adventure, excitement, and pleasure.

I did my best to emulate them; to join their crowd and be just like them. I'd do wild, crazy things; I'd go along with their suggestions, and make crazy suggestions of my own.

I was constantly doing things that scared the hell out of me, embarrassed the hell out of me, or both.

But I never enjoyed those things. Unlike my thrill–seeker friends, who'd have giant grins on their faces, loving every minute, it was all I could do to keep myself from calling it quits to whatever dangerous thing we were doing.

While their brains were going, "YEAH! STIMULATION!!!" mine was saying, "Um, at the speed we're going right now, if this thing flies off the track there's a good chance our neck gets snapped and all the other things we want to accomplish in life never happen."

The reason why was not that I am "too stilted," nor that my friends are "too ADD," but rather that our time extensions were different in degree.


What is Time Orientation?

I was first introduced to the concept of time orientation via this (eye–poppingly good) video by RSA Animate:

In "The Secret Powers of Time," Philip Zimbardo introduces the viewer to the 6 main "time zones" that different people are inclined toward:

  • Past-positive: a focus on happy memories of the past (birthdays, anniversaries, etc.). Past-positive people are nostalgic, happy, but cautious.

  • Past-negative: a focus on negative memories of the past (regrets, loves lost, etc.) Past-negative people are usually bitter and regretful.

  • Present-hedonistic: a focus on enjoying oneself in the here and now. Present-hedonistic people live life to the fullest, do whatever they want to do, when they want to do it, and don't bother themselves to worry about consequences. On the downside, their lives tend to be more dramatic, less stable, and less healthy (due to all the risks they take).

  • Present-fatalistic: a belief that it doesn't pay to plan, so why bother. Present-fatalistic people feel stuck in an inescapable present, not really enjoying themselves but powerless to change the future. People who are depressed are almost always present fatalistic.

  • Future-goal-oriented: a focus on achieving one's goals. Future-goal-oriented types are ambitious, have big plans far out in the future they want to accomplish, and are constantly working to bring their visions for the future into reality. On the downside, the focus on building the future often means ignoring the present, skipping "fun" things now and shirking relationships to focus on building instead.

  • Future-transcendental: life begins after death. Future-transcendentalists tend to be most concerned with doing what their belief systems mandate they do now in order to have the best possible life after death. Often this means following a religious code, "doing unto others", and regularly praising one's god or gods. On the downside, this can lead to viewing large–scale contributions to human society as meaningless, materialistic, and short–sighted (why build for man when you can build for God?), and can lead to restricting oneself from what most other people are doing and enjoying (e.g., chastity; restrictions on what can be eaten or drunk; etc.).

The realization that these distinctions even exist in the first place clears up a lot of disconnects between different kinds of people. For instance, the religious folks who occasionally comment on the "Just Be Yourself" article objecting that why should they change... God has a plan and it will all work out. They legitimately feel they don't need to set goals for the future because the future will take care of itself. So my recommendation of, "Work hard and yourself," sounds like needless, unnecessary, and wasteful extra work to them.

It also highlighted – for me at least – why I don't like Sex and the City – it's a bunch of present-hedonists running around indulging with one another.

Strikes me as quite silly, wasteful, and meaningless... much as those future-transcendalists view my future goal oriented recommendations.

But for people who are themselves present-hedonists, Sex and the City is nothing more than a good, fun romp.

Just as those types of personalities are in real life, too.


Hanging with Hedonists

time orientationNow don't get me wrong... I don't dislike present-hedonists.

A large portion of my friends have strong present-hedonistic tendencies. Those are the types most usually attracted to pickup and seduction – the folks who love to indulge.

And I just can't be around men who aren't good with women anymore (men who suck with women, you will find, tend to have this dominate their conversations: "Women are so terrible!" or "WHY are women so hard to understand??!", and they're usually not very good at socializing with men, either).

So I tend to mostly be around people who are moderately to strongly present-hedonist.

We do tend to shake our heads at one another though (in good fun, of course). They don't get how I can care so much about this "future" that always isn't now, and I don't get how they can care so much about the fleeting feelings of the here and now, which are gone as fast as they come.

In fact, Western culture has been on a trajectory of increasing degrees of present-hedonism lately. I'm not entirely sure why, but my guess is that as life has become easier and easier over the past century, the need to plan ahead for the future has become of lower and lower importance. Actions have fewer consequences, and a life of indulgence, which feels quite rewarding in the moment, also comes with fewer negative long–term consequences than it did in times past.

More and more, in most areas of life, I find myself surrounded by hedonists, and media messages touting that it's all about "living life to the fullest" and "living for the moment" (probably because impulse buying is tied most strongly to present-hedonism - if you aren't living life to the fullest, right now, in the moment, you almost certainly also aren't buying 95% of the products advertisers have for sale, either).


What's the "Right" Path?

According to Zimbardo, the doses of each of these that are ideal for an individual in Western society are:

  • High in past-positive
  • Moderate in future (goal oriented or transcendental)
  • Moderate in present-hedonism
  • Low in past-negative
  • Low in present-fatalism

How important is your time perspective in your quality of life? Have a look at these interesting results from "Putting time in perspective: A valid, reliable individual–differences metric":

Convergent Validity for the Five Scales on the Zimbardo Time Perspective Inventory


Past–
Negative
Past–
Positive
Present–
Hedonistic
Present–
Fatalistic
Future
Aggression

.49***
.16***

.29***
.39*** .31***
Beck Depression

.59*** .17*
.20**

.37*** .19**
Conscientiousness
.18**
.05
.22**
.34***
.63***
CFC
.19**
.02
.31*** .55**
.52***
Ego Control

.26*** .04

.60***
.29*** .39***
Impulse Control
.34*** .01
.25*** .23**
.29***
Need for Consistency
.10

.09
.41*** .16*

.47***
Novelty Seeking

.29*** .03

.57***
.28*** .41***
Reward Dependence

.01

.18*
.01
.13

.37***
Self–Esteem
.48***
.28***
.11
.28***
.13*
Sensation Seeking

.05
.05

.57***
.17*
.31***
Trait Anxiety

.62*** .25***
.07

.38*** .14*

Note. CFC = consideration of future consequences. N = 205 (from College of San Mateo). * p < .05. ** p < .01. *** p < .001. "Ego Control" is actually scored as ego under control.

Here's another one from the same study:

ZPTI and Single Self-Report Item Correlations


Past–
Negative
Past–
Positive
Present–
Hedonistic
Present–
Fatalistic
Future
Age
.08
.01
.10* .08*
.23***
GPA
.05
.07
.07 .08*
.21***
Hours Study/Week

.06

.01
.15**
.02

.28***
How Creative
.06
.13***

.28***
.11*
.09*
How Happy
.41***
.36***

.16***
.23***
.01
How Often Steal

.12*

.04

.16**

.13*
.02
How Often Tell Lies

.18***

.03

.16***

.17***
.20***
How Shy

.20***
.13** .16**
.13**

.00
Temper

.18***
.06
.05

.18***
.08

Note. N = 566 (from College of San Mateo and San Francisco State University). * p < .05. ** p < .01. *** p < .001.

So what's this all mean?

Well, it sucks to be past-negative and/or present-fatalistic... you're bad in all the wrong ways, and good in few of the right ones. Your life is a mess, and so are you. And you definitely don't want to date a girl who's past-negative or present-fatalistic, either. She will lie to you, steal from you, throw fits around you, and reek of nervous anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem.

She's poison.

And present-hedonism is a mixed bag. While it doesn't have quite the downsides of the past-negatives or the present-fatalists, it does lead to constant novelty- and sensation-seeking and continual breaking of routine in order to experience whatever's new and exciting. A girl who's high on present-hedonistic is among the most outgoing, but also among the least consistent.

Meanwhile, future folks are educated, hard workers, and very consistent... but also very high ego, and usually not a whole lot of fun compared to everybody else.

The only one that everybody can agree on is good all the way around is past-positive... past-positives have the highest self-esteem and are the happiest overall of any time orientation.

You should quickly be realizing that your own time orientations are going to have a big impact on your life... and the time orientations of the women you date will have an equally large impact, too.


Women's Orientation

Women are naturally less future-oriented than men are, but have closed some of the gap as they've moved into the workforce, according to "Future: Links to Motivation":

Literature on future orientation and motivation was examined for gender differences. Research revealed gender differences from five theoretical orientations: achievement motivation, future time orientation, possible selves, expectancy-value, and social-cognitive. Some of those differences seemed best explained in terms of generational differences in gender role expectations. Gender differences were found in extension and density of future goals. Men had further extension but fewer goals than women. Evidence suggested that women's future expectations have become more similar to men's in the career realm, although women also have maintained their focus on interpersonal goals. An implication is that schools are a potentially powerful sociocultural context that can encourage students to envision futures that are not constrained by gender, race/ethnicity, or other stereotypes.

It's important to keep in mind here that, as a man, you will generally be at least somewhat more future-oriented than the women you meet... although there certainly are exceptions.

Also interesting to note is that men generally have fewer-but-longer-term goals than women do, while women have more-but-shorter-term goals than men do. I've generally found in my experience that smaller numbers of goals are more manageable and achievable, and that people tend to start out goal-setting with larger numbers of goals and gradually learn to reduce the number of goals they target as they become more proficient at it, so my guess here would be that on average men are the more "experienced" goal-setters, which means they've probably been doing it longer and have a longer history of achievement (if I'm on the mark, that is).

Of course, you will find women all over the spectrum. Personally, I very much enjoy meeting and sleeping with present-hedonist women; when they want you, they want you, and just ooze sex. They're lots of fun in the bedroom, too. But a little too unstable for long-term relationships, I find (and, pretty much all of the attached women I've slept with have been either present-hedonists, present-fatalists, or past-negatives).

Sex and the City is an example of present-hedonism in full swing - it's the tale of women constantly in search of their next hit of emotional positivity - sometimes from sex with strangers, sometimes from relationships... sometimes from whatever's closest at hand. There are scenes like one of the main characters telling a man she loves him, him not telling her he loves her back, so her then seeking comfort immediately after in another man's bed. Pure present-hedonism, plain and simple - and a big part of the reason why on average the show appeals more to women (who are more present-hedonism inclined by default) than men (who tend toward being rather more future-inclined by default).

But one woman is not a carbon copy of the next. So, next, let's talk about what time orientations you want to avoid... and what types you'll want to search for, and why.


time orientation

Needless to say, the most implacable hedonists can be loads of fun... and loads of trouble, too.

That's because when your focus is always on maximizing pleasure within the moment, with little to no concern for the future consequences of indulging in that pleasure, you frequently take roads that lead to short-term gratification and longer-term pain.

That can include things like your fun, vigorous present-hedonistic girlfriend cheating on you with that sexy bartender she just met tonight, and then later getting into an emotional scuffle with you when you start asking her why this guy is always calling and texting her.

Therefore, in my experience, it's usually best that people stick to dating people with time-orientations similar to their own.

Of course, this isn't completely black and white, either; time orientation is as much a matter of degree as anything else.


Steering Clear of the Downers

I talked about people who will bring you down a good bit in the article on psychic vampires. Here, now, is another way of identifying people who will suck your soul simply by your being in their presence: by looking at time orientation.

From "Social Exclusion and the Deconstructed State: Time Perception, Meaninglessness, Lethargy, Lack of Emotion, and Self-Awareness":

The authors hypothesize that socially excluded individuals enter a defensive state of cognitive deconstruction that avoids meaningful thought, emotion, and self-awareness, and is characterized by lethargy and altered time flow. Social rejection led to an overestimation of time intervals, a focus on the present rather than the future, and a failure to delay gratification (Experiment 1). Rejected participants were more likely to agree that "Life is meaningless" (Experiment 2). Excluded participants wrote fewer words and displayed slower reaction times (Experiments 3 and 4). They chose fewer emotion words in an implicit emotion task (Experiment 5), replicating the lack of emotion on explicit measures (Experiments 1-3 and 6). Excluded participants also tried to escape from self-awareness by facing away from a mirror (Experiment 6).

Here, researchers are showing that socially rejected individuals fall into present-fatalistic time orientations, in which:

  • Time seems to proceed much more slowly
  • Gratification is unable to be delayed
  • Life appears to be without meaning
  • Lethargy and apathy increases
  • Emotions decrease
  • Attempts at escaping self-awareness arise

These individuals - the "downers" - are the ones who are neither:

  • Fun present-hedonists, or
  • Productive future-focused individuals

Instead, all they do is mope around all day, talking about "woe is me, nothing even matters, what's the point?"

They make you want to tear your hair out if you aren't already like them yourself.

How do you avoid ending up dating women like this (and making friends like this)?

Simple: by screening them.

All people break down into one of three dominant traits:

  • Future oriented
  • Present-hedonistic oriented
  • Present-fatalistic oriented

While past-negative and past-positive are important (and we'll talk about them in a moment), they're more a secondary trait so far as I can tell from the research.

It's possible to be high present-fatalistic and high present-hedonistic, too; this is the person who chases pleasure, but is depressed about it ("I only do it because nothing else is worth doing"), as opposed to the pure present-hedonist ("I chase pleasure because I LOVE pleasure!").

How do you screen out present-fatalistic downers? Simple: they have zero real ambition for the future and are not excited about the present. During the course of your conversations with women (and you should be deep diving and eliciting values), you'll be asking her what she wants to do with her future, and what she enjoys doing now.

If she's a future-oriented person, her responses to future questions will be like:

  • "Oh! Well, I really want to open my own hair salon; I've been saving up for years, and..."

  • "After I complete my PhD, I'm probably going to look to join a research team doing marine observations for at least a year..."

  • "I'm really stuck on learning Japanese right now; I'm convinced that the future is in Asia, and I want to be able to be a point-person for whatever company I'm working for when I get there."

If she's a present-hedonistic person, her responses to what she loves doing questions will be like:

  • "I am SUCH a foodie. I LOVE food. Especially Italian food. I've been to every single Italian food restaurant in the city; I can't get enough of it."

  • "I love the beach. There's just nothing better than stretching out on the sand and letting the sun beam down on you and listening to the ocean."

  • "I'm a total movie geek. I've gone to the cinema like 10 times already this year and we haven't even hit awards season yet."

But if she's not future-oriented, her answers to future questions will be like:

  • "Oh... hum. Well, I'll probably keep working at the company I'm at now... I guess. Maybe I'll find a better job."

  • "If I was doing something different than what I'm doing now? Is napping an option? Or maybe wealthy and retired? haha"

... and if she isn't a present-hedonist, her answers to present-focused questions will be like:

  • "My favorite thing to do? Sleeping, I guess. Having a day off from work/school."

  • "I don't really have passions. Let me think... nope, nothing I'm passionate about."

Basically, if she's passionate about the future, she's future-oriented; and if she's passionate about the here and now, she's present-hedonistic.

But if she's passionate about nothing... she's present-fatalistic.

And while you might be able to be around her long enough to sleep with her once or twice for fun, provided you want to and she wants to, I'd strongly recommend you don't keep company with her later than that, unless you want to be down, down, down.


Where the Past Comes Into Play

If you're wondering where the past shows up, that's what we're going to talk about next.

Remember victim mentality? Yep, you guessed it - past-negative and past-positive is just another way of saying "has victim mentality" or "doesn't have victim mentality", respectively.

Your view of yourself as a "victim" or not has very little to do with what's going on in your life right now, and very much to do with how you perceive your life's trajectory to have gone.

Is it possible to see yourself as a victim if you view your past as having been awesome and excellent? Occasionally... fleetingly. But only when something really terrible happens to you, and the feeling doesn't last long.

When your past appears littered with bad events and misfortunes, however, it's next to impossible to not see yourself as a victim.

time orientation

I remember a study - I can't remember what it was called, or find the research itself, unfortunately - that looked at people who had good days and people who had bad days, and found that on average, both parties had roughly the same number and quality of good and bad things happen to them. However, the people having "good days" tended to remember the good things more and forget the bad ones; the reverse was true for the people having "bad days", who quickly forgot about the good things that had happened to them but held onto the bad ones.

While I'm aware there are some people with absolutely terrible pasts - victims of extreme physical and sexual and psychological abuse, for example - there are plenty of people who didn't have it nearly so bad who view their pasts as great tragedies, and plenty of people who did have it pretty objectively bad who still view their pasts as largely filled with good anyway.

It's all in how you see it. And just like with determining whether an individual is present-fatalistic or not, you should be screening for people who are past-negative when you first get to know them, too.

How do you do this?

Simple: get them talking about their pasts.

When a girl is past-positive, she'll have plenty of fun and happy stories to tell you about her past. She'll be BURSTING with positive memories she wants to share. Even the bad things get twisted around into valuable experiences for learning and growth in her eyes - what didn't kill her made her stronger.

Conversely, women who are past-negative won't want to talk about their pasts. They'll dodge the subject, or have little to say about it. That's because they don't want to think about it... and they can't think of anything to say in conversation with a relative stranger that won't come off like whining or complaining, either.

Therefore, if a woman isn't bursting with happy memories to share with you when you start enquiring about her past, write her off as relationship material.

Otherwise, you're opening yourself up to someone who is happy the least, lies the most, has the worst temper, has the lowest self-esteem, the highest anxiety, the highest aggression, the deepest depression, and the lowest impulse control of all other time orientations.

Not such a good mix for commitment... not even the kind of person you want to have around you in any real capacity no matter how you cut it, really.


What if YOU are Past-Negative / Present-Fatalistic?

I'm sure there are a few people reading this article thinking, "Look at that, I'm one of those people he says you don't want to have around you. Hmm."

If you're present-fatalistic, your response is most likely to shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, whatever. It doesn't really matter anyway," so I won't bother giving advice on that one (and you probably wouldn't take it or see it through even if I did, because what's the point, right?).

However, if you do want to get out of it, see this article: "How to Overcome Depression." That's how I got out of it, after almost a decade there.

If you're past-negative, your response is most likely to throw your hands up and cry, "But my past really IS a minefield of despair and desolation!" To which I'd say: horse crap. I've met people who've been tortured, who've lost limbs, who've lived in dire poverty (that is, huts built from sticks, and dirty drinking water) their entire lives, who grin like idiots and tell you that life is good and regale you with fun stories from their wonderful pasts. If you have all your limbs, drink clean water, and don't live in a yurt, there is not a damn thing you can say to convince me you've had it worse than they have.

If you're past-negative and you'd rather switch to past-positive, read this article: "How Victim Mentality Can Stifle Your Life – and Luck with Women."


So Who Should You Date: Builders or Thrill-Seekers?

time orientationThat's an interesting one: do you date future-oriented builders, or present-hedonistic thrill-seekers?

Well, on the upside, the future folks are highly reliable and consistent, they're not going to cause you a lot of drama, discomfort, or stress, and the odds of them straying from your relationship or suddenly leaving with no warning or otherwise dropping a bomb on you out of the blue are pretty low.

On the downside, future-oriented individuals may just be playing it too safe for you... they may well be boring.

Also on the upside, present-hedonistic folks are full of energy, spunk, and vigor. They're constantly chasing down the next new, exciting thing, and are generally speaking (so long as they're not also present-fatalistic) a continual source of positive vibes.

On the downside, present-hedonistic folks are subject to changing on a whim, to doing things impulsively without considering the future consequences of their actions, and to destroying the things they've built - on purpose or by accident - in exchange for just a brief short-term hit of emotions.

My top recommendation here has to be this: choose someone who's oriented like you.

If you're a builder, date someone who's a builder. If you're a hedonist, date someone who's a hedonist. When both match each other's personalities, you'll avoid either growing bored (usually the hedonists with other types) or annoying each other (usually the futures with other types).

Of course, the best of these is for both you and her to have that mix of traits that Zimbardo recommends:

  • High in past-positive
  • Moderate in future (goal oriented or transcendental)
  • Moderate in present-hedonism
  • Low in past-negative
  • Low in present-fatalism

That way, you'll best be able to balance working toward the future with enjoying the here and now... and so will she.

Except for when she gets too wrapped up in watching Sex and the City, that is.

Always,
Chase

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Comments

Wallflower's picture

personality traits over time


Hey Chase,

Interesting read. I couldn't for the life of me peg myself into one or two firm categories though, bummer, must be a special case of crazy :) But, actually, I am thinking that maybe people change.. Maybe I started out as a happy person, then became depressed and felt like a victim, then became a happy person for another few years, then maybe something bad happened and fatalism set in, then happy again.. now I feel fine most of the time, and actually thanks to you and your article on overcoming depression, despite a few hang-ups about not being able to obtain certain "instant gratifications.". But, what I was thinking is that maybe its better to stick around with people you like despite their "terrible" traits,? maybe they do course correct themselves and change eventually? I have changed so much and I would imagine most people do change too.

I am not attracted to most people. I meet someone I really really like maybe once every 5-10 years. So, if this is the case, wouldn't you say that it might be worth it pursuing a relationship with that person and trying to overlook a few unpleasant traits of theirs or is it better to just not even give in to the temptation? I guess there is definitely love without lust out there, but we only live onee, eh?
Also, I meant to comment on some other article you wrote, but forgot, I am really curious about your views on love and fidelity. It seems that you are the type of a person who is able to separate love and sex :)) but yet it appears that you value fidelity in women you date. Why is that? Why would you mind them sleeping with others occasionally while being in a relationship with you? If you guys get along great, can support one another, in other words be a good long-term match? I am just very curious..

Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Change, Relationships, and Fidelity

Author

Wallflower-

Must be ;)

People do change, although taking it upon yourself to push people into changing usually leads to them resenting you, you doing a whole lot of wheel spinning, and them staying exactly as you found them.

People will only change on their own terms, and when they want to change. I haven't yet heard of someone good at forcing change in unwilling people, myself included (all the people coming to this website are people looking to change, or open to it - a very different story than people who are comfortable with the way they are).

I used to stick around people with bad traits because I thought I could change them or mitigate them, but what I've had to admit the past few years is that I cannot change them, and any mitigation I'm able to do is only temporary, and over time, they get no better being around me, but I do get worse being around them. I suppose it comes down to what good does this person contribute to your life, how greatly does it outweigh the bad, and how replaceable (or not) is he or she really? i.e., if the bad really isn't THAT bad, but the good is GREAT, and it'd be really hard to replace the person (and you don't really WANT to replace the person)… maybe you can get over the negative stuff or just ignore it.

It's easier when a relationship is new - if you see warning signs before you're invested, just drop and move on. There are all kinds of people out there, and it's better to invest your time and emotions into someone who's got it all together than someone who's going to be down and bring you down too. Once you're in the relationship, it gets a lot more complicated, and many more considerations come into play.

On why I care about fidelity, that's a good question. At least part of it's an emotional reaction. I like to think that all emotions have *supposedly* good reasons behind them (that is, your subconscious thinks its reasons are good), whether you're aware of those reasons or not. It may be a relic of a more conservative/religious upbringing, or it may be something hard-coded into man… I'm not sure. Kings and emperors throughout history across every culture have closely guarded their wives, mistresses, and concubines, and flew into (sometimes murderous) rages over infidelity, which suggests it's something pretty basic and primal. There are social concerns - when I hear of a man whose woman has slept with another man, and the man has accepted her back, my reaction tends to be one of revulsion toward him, as if I fear being infected by his weakness, and I notice a lot of other people (men and women, when those women are being honest with me) reacting similarly - simply to maintain social respect, you seem to need to part ways.

These days my views are that it's mainly about ego defense and receiving a woman's full support. On ego defense, a lot of the things I'm doing require that I think highly of myself and my abilities, and if I have people around me dragging down my view of myself to something more pedestrian, my ability to achieve will also be dragged down to something more pedestrian, something I fear (failure to accomplish much; I'm not terribly accomplished yet at 30 and men's output and productivity levels tend to peak between 28 and 35 or so - the clock's ticking on me). On full support (as opposed to support that's divided between myself and her other lovers, which, anytime a woman is not completely monogamous, it always is), I quite enjoy being completely single, and have had precious little time being completely unattached since I started dating - if a woman isn't going to be EVERYTHING I want, no problem - I will go be single, until I find a woman who is. It's not a "defiant" thing, or an "emotional" thing, that one - it's more like, okay, I really want chicken taquitos, and this Mexican restaurant isn't serving chicken taquitos, so I'll just keep walking until I find one that is. I'm not THAT hungry! I just want some taquitos.

I do still have moral/ethical/empathetic reservations about being non-monogamous myself, actually. There's really an unbridgeable gulf between what women really want out of relationships and what men really want, and it even differs from individual to individual. I meet great women, and they really want exclusivity from me, and I'd really like to give it to them and make them completely happy, but then *I* wouldn't be completely happy, and then they'd have an unhappy man, and become unhappy themselves. Most men suppress their desires for other women to inhabit monogamy, and women suppress their desires for other men to inhabit monogamy (I see this same conflict of interest in some women too - they really want to experience other men, but don't want to hurt or lose their partner, either, and their partner doesn't want them to experience other men). I don't think there's really a solution for this, other than "date women who accept you sleeping with other women." The only women I meet like that though are women who accept that I already have a #1 woman in my life, and they're choosing to be with me knowing that I already have a girl in the lead role. But really they're just biding their time, hoping for a break up between me and Girl #1, and if they get the lead role they suddenly want promises of exclusivity just as much as the previous #1 girl did. I have structured my life in a way that is often rather emotionally taxing for me, since I do bond with the women in my life very empathetically, but I don't believe I can both give them what they want and still do the things I want.

Maybe the real solution is, if everybody's being completely honest with everybody else, monogamy doesn't really work past a few years of early child-rearing unless you're naturally very low sex drive and low ambition, or the relationship/family is the biggest thing in your world and you're willing to suppress other needs and desires for it. It's a shame the breakup process has to be so routinely traumatic, but I suppose people would not be able to separate from strong emotional attachments sans trauma.

Emotions and relationships both are just messy. I like to be able to tie things up neatly and put a cut-and-dry explanation on them and say, "Here's the way it is, and here's all you have to do if you want things to turn out well!" but on relationships over the long term, between ambitious, high drive people, there often doesn't seem to be a way to do that.

Chase

Wallflower's picture

Thanks for the long answer


Thanks for the long answer Chase.. I am going to ruminate on this for a while and get back to you :)

John W.'s picture

Great Article!


I really enjoyed this article. On the down side, I realized my dad is both past negative and present fatalistic. I wish I could help him but I think he is beyond help. He's fought several bouts with cancer now, going past 70, and is the same old whining, complaining, negative self he was before all this started. We tried to get him interested in hobbies or even just walk for leisure. Instead, all he wants to do is lay in bed and read the paper. I suspect he is both depressed and suffers from the victim mentality. I was angry at the man, but overtime realized that there's nothing I can do if he refuses to change. All that anger does is make me upset and frustrated. Nowadays, I'm just indifferent.

Reading your other articles on depression, anxiety, and victim mentality has really helped me to come to grips with my father and find some closure. Thank you.

P.S. The link to "How Victim Mentality Can Stifle Your Life – and Luck with Women" is bad.

Chase Amante's picture

Whining & Complaining

Author

John-

Good that you've found some closure; sorry to hear your father's that way, though. A lot of the times with whining it's a learned response; it's attention seeking. Rather than it being a "real" depression, it's the complainer's way of getting his kicks, and watching people react to him. Sometimes when you start ignoring this, or just shut off and don't engage when a person does this, it'll drive them to find some other way to get attention (often by trying to figure out why you're being so unresponsive, and then sometimes to change).

Thanks for the tip on the victim mentality link - that one's all fixed now.

Chase

Nick's picture

Wow killer article!I would


Wow killer article!
I would say I am a mix of both hedonistic and future-orientated, and I would take a guess that the girl is too,( she can see how future-orientated men dislike the show cause she is at least a nice portion future-orientated too), though I wonder are these traits of our personalities invoked within us from our experiences and the beliefs bestowed upon us when we were young, a part of our genes, mix of both?( Well yea I guess a mix of both actually cause you said majority of each gender is inclined to different orientations)

You were able to change from present-fatalistic to future-oriented, but in time could you will yourself to change to fully present-hedonistic or vice/versa like you did to conquer depression?( No reason to just something fascinating to think about)
Possibly most likely just like I could be more inclined to either if I was born in a future family or a hedonistic family and stuck with those type of people and the lifestyle for a long time could I actually will myself to( maybe it depends how old the person is, old people are more unlikely to change, they have more life experience, have a stronger willpower, and thus there minds have hardened and can no longer be morphed to something different hence the old adage; can't teach an old dog new tricks)

Also, I will admit I am high so I might be rambling(not sure)

Also, I have finally been able to half understand those pysch reports without having to read them over and over so thats good.

Anyway, is there such a thing as a sexy laugh. Sometimes you hear people laugh like beavis or butthead and then you go to prison but other times some men laugh and then the women can't help but laugh. I have also heard women comment on a mans laugh in a very positive way. Sometimes just hearing someones laugh can turn a girlu from sour to sweet,
so there has to be a way, if there is a way lead me on that path Chase, no matter the trials and tribulations I will have to endure. Never give up, never surrender.

Also, you have given me much value over the year so I will try and give back. There is a man that reminds me of you, he works outside the system and is wary of mainstream advice. I have been reading his blog for a month and man let me tell you, it has got some great stuff. His website is StevePavlina.com.

Also I just read your article on Being Yourself and I agree with you fully. So many people like that advice because it adds to an opinion that you don't have to work hard, you just have to not be a criminal or go against the majority in any way, just do what everyone else does( which is the easiest thing to do) and life will erase all challenges such as becoming a man women enjoy. Not only that but it inspires a taker mentality and not a giving mentality( if I am just being myself she will like me, maybe enough to give me her facebook oh boy!).

Anyway I have a question, yesterday and then

Chase Amante's picture

Changing Time Orientations, Attractive Laughs

Author

Nick-

Delay of gratification (future orientation) has been shown to be teachable in laboratory studies, so I'd imagine at least that one is learnable. On the others, I couldn't tell you whether their more nature or nurture - I'd suspect a mixture of both. If your brain chemistry is such that you're wired for stimulation (or largely immune to it), there's not much nurture can do about that; however, a number of personality disorders result from childhood trauma, and these frequently lead to high present, low future time orientations, so nurture clearly plays a role (and on the other side, education leads to higher future orientations).

It might be possible for some people to move from future-oriented to present-hedonistic; many Hollywood films are about this (the stuffy, stilted man trapped in worrying about and planning for the future, who learns to love living in the present courtesy the Manic Pixie Dream Girl who comes along and "opens his eyes"). However, it'd have to be something you'd want to do, and unless they feel underserved by their present time orientation, people rarely want to change orientations.

Attractive laughs are a very real thing, yes - a couple of examples that spring to mind right away are Vin Diesel (good) and Sean Connery (better). You'll notice if you listen to them their laughs are loud, clear, and in a kind of slow staccato, or they're just one note: "Ha!" Laughing like this will get you women telling you, "I like your laugh." I have this one on the post queue; someone requested it a long time ago. Probably won't be a very long article, though - it's rather straightforward.

Steve Pavlina - yeah, he's great. He was an early inspiration for this site when I really started blogging in earnest. Actually, a lot of the original site design (ads, article lists, etc.) was based on his website design - the "Best of" and "How to" lists on this one are a legacy of that.

Chase

Nick's picture

Yikes


Wow, I should not try to post when I have my head up in the clouds......
though it is hard when you have a certain plant in a fishtank in your room. Anyway, sorry you had to deal with that Chase, peace!

Anonymous's picture

High School Questions


Hey Chase, awesome article. I have a couple questions about high school that I was hoping you could answer.
Firstly, I have quite a bit of facial hair, and while I can't grow a full beard, I have more than almost everyone my age (I'm 16). I really wanted to try out stubble. So do you think that having facial hair/stubble would be considered sexy to high school girls? I also wanted to shave my neck clean, but after I shave a lot of times my neck (but not my face) gets red and irritated. It doesn't look good, and I was wondering if you ever had this and what you did/do to prevent it.
Another question I have is about meeting new girls during the first few days of school. How would I go about opening them? Should I compliment them, or go indirect direct, or just introduce myself, ask how their summer was, and do some deep-diving? I would say that I'm somewhere in the middle of being popular, but never really had too much success with girls, if that makes a big difference.
Thanks a lot and you've been a huge help.

Knight's picture

Re: Anon


Anon -

Stubble at your age I believe would be in your interests to gain and maintain. It would boost your age in people's eyes wouldn't you say so? With your neck getting irritated it sounds like you are sensitive in the neck. Are you shaving with your grain? If not, shave the direction your hair on your neck is going. If this isn't it perhaps switch to a better razor - a safety razor and learning how to wet shave can put you ahead of the game while giving you a better shave and more sexy tradition towards shaving compared to an average supermarket razor. There are plenty of guides on the Internet - PutThisOn has a video aimed at teaching anyone the wet shave technique while reducing irritation. Find it on YouTube, Vimeo or their blog. As for your high school dilemma, while Chase will possibly give you advice it has been noted that he hasn't really worked on high school girls much. I believe he is getting someone good in the area to write an article however.

Knight

Chase Amante's picture

High School

Author

Exactly - what Knight said. I probably spoke 200 words to women in high school (I'm exaggerating, but not by much!). I'll continue to ask writers coming aboard if any of them have experience dating in high school though - I'm sure we'll get someone here at some point who can talk about the subject intelligently. But it is a time when a lot of people are still stumbling around and doing much better jobs of looking like they know what they're doing than actually knowing what they're doing, that's for sure.

On shaving - try shaving every other day instead. Gives your neck some time to recover, and you'll get a lot less irritation.

Chase

Dave Grohl's picture

Well I'm some sort of hybrid.


Well I'm some sort of hybrid. I'm a bit of an intellectual. I always have to figure shit out. I was born and raised Christian. I was always told that life had glorious purpose. Then as I got older I started questioning. I this purposeful, careful life style led me to be future oriented. I have many goals and ambitions. Im learning seduction, i have great grades in school, and im a learning musician. But at the same time I can't help thinking, if Christianity isn't real, then this life means nothing. It's fucking bullshit, all these people talking about being good. They tell us in school what's good behavior and what's bad, but they scorn religion. So who decides morals now, fucking you? It's such hypocrisy. I end up in a pit of psychological vampirism and present fatalistic orientation. It sucks.
I'd appreciate your thoughts as an analytical person, chase, I suspect you may know what I'm talking about. I just hope if gets to bad, someone slaps me with a sack of garlic

Chase Amante's picture

Meaning

Author

Dave-

There's a period of darkness after leaving religion behind. Religious beliefs give you a sense of clarity and certainty, and free you from having to ask the big existential questions, like, "What exactly is the point of all of this?"

Some people slip into a kind of more or less permanent nihilism / fatalism, believing that existence is pointless so you might as well just do whatever you want because one day you'll be dead and nothing will matter anyway.

This seems like a pretty empty, depressing way to live to me, but a lot of people get stuck here and become convinced it is THE right way (they essentially adopt a new religion, this one being a religion of meaninglessness).

I have a 10,000-word essay here on my thoughts on purpose and meaning in life:

The Purpose of Life from a Practical Point of View

Chase

The M's picture

Fundamentals


Hey Chase,

Wow, this site is really ramping up and I'm out of time to read most of the new articles. But I've immensely enjoyed the new topics (social circle and dancing) by Peter Fontes so far, which were a bit under-represented on this site before.

I've got two questions about fundamentals. When I think of an ideal sexy girl walking down the street, I see: long lustrous flowing hair, beautiful body, beautiful skin, skimpy but tasteful clothes, toned legs, feminine voice, big sunglasses, and maybe a flower in her hair. :) Obviously tastes differ a lot, but I think most of us would agree that's hot. Things I don't think about, but that girls might worry about, are small breasts, being tall, pale skin, and disheveled hair (all of which can make her even more attractive if all the above stuff is in place). Could you give a similar description of an ideal sexy guy walking down the street, and things that guys often worry about that can actually make them even more attractive to the ladies? (This is obviously more of a question for a girl, but maybe you could give me a good answer based on your experience.)

Second question: I see lots of guys and girls with seemingly perfect fundamentals - nice clothes, nice hair, and all that - but somehow they look like they're trying too hard (their facial expression or body is a bit stiff, the hair is unnecessarily styled, the clothes are too carefully chosen), and we all know that's an immediate turn-off. But of course there are lots of people who can wear excellent clothes and hairstyles and simply look stunning, not try-hard. What's the difference? The relaxed face/body, a sexy smile, calm eyes, dominance and confidence seem to be a big part of it (lol, that's just about everything, isn't it?).

Basically I want to be sure that all my fundamentals are coming together into one wonderful package. :)

Last but not least, two quick comments on the site:

- Now that there are more authors, it would be nice to have a feature that lets you see all articles by a given author. (I was looking for Peter's series just now and it took a little while.) Maybe if you clicked on their name in the authors box - right now it just links to a mostly empty page.

- The YouTube link to the male models in your sexy walk article got taken down.

The M

Chase Amante's picture

Walking Down the Street

Author

M-

Good to hear from you! Having more articles on here than you know what to do with is a good thing I hope ;)

On "ideal man walking down the street," a powerful walk is big, and then either a charmingly distracted expression on his face, or a steely-eyed determination (one of those is obviously far more approachable than the other). Clothes are highly dependent on tastes (you might prefer skimpy but tasteful clothes, but another man might prefer a long, svelte red dress, while still another man goes nuts for women in jeans and boots, and still another man likes his women best in "trashy" attire), though most women prefer well-muscled men, even if they say they don't (they still get excited around muscular men, even when they tell you they don't like muscles). Sexy hair and sexy facial hair are mandatory. Sexy voice, of course, if he's speaking (say, on his cell phone). Maybe cool shades, maybe not, depending on your tastes. No flower in his hair, probably.

On the difference - yes, it's relaxation. Down to sprezzatura, as always - studied carelessness. The ones who look impressive seem at home in their own skin; the ones who don't, don't. You should put as much time into making your mannerisms come across relaxed as you do into making them have good form.

Noted on the author pages - I'll see if we can get that fixed. You're right, it's not easy to search by author the way the site's currently set up, and especially as we get more folks writing on here I suspect that'll be something people want to do increasingly often. Thanks for the note on the male model walk video; I've just updated that article - all set now.

Chase

Knight's picture

Legacy


Chase, you mention legacy all the time and I know you seek it in one way or another - in my mind you already have created it but I do not know you.

A single day does not pass without me thinking of a legacy - my mind is always filled with legacy, emotion and women. I didn't think this way until you wrote your brilliant articles focused on why sex without a relationship won't work without certain parameters and your writings on humans leaving nothing behind when they die except for their advancements of society. I'm still without much of all three topics I mentioned on my mind but that is attributed to me not refining my skills and creating goals. Everyday however I do things which surprise me and I do set goals to further my interactions.

Do you know where you want to lead your life now Chase? I feel we come from similar areas of thought and were once semi-popular boys who didn't take up others offers or advances because we were far from experience. I realize I want a legacy now and people like you fill me to better myself everyday. Months ago I would have told anyone who inquired about my future that all I wanted was video games and gadgets. Those things do not create a better life I know now and are merely by products of successes by some degree, just like women and wealth.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Legacy

Author

Knight-

Legacy's an odd topic. On me, I'm not sure what legacy I've put together so far. I have a moderately successful ebook and Internet business that's able to pay its own bills and some of mine, but not much more than that. A few other failed businesses. Maybe some thinking on social and relationship dynamics that advances work done by some other people a bit, but it's only describing what's already there in nature. Life to-date looks like a string of valiantly striven but unsuccessful endeavors, legacy-wise; and we will have to wait and see if there's anything more in the cards for me or not. I think I know where I'd like it to go; but many times before I've felt certain I knew where I wanted to take my life, only for me to end up going down another road from the one I envisioned taking altogether.

All I can say for now is, I don't think there's anything here that isn't forgotten in a few years if it vanishes overnight; I've much more to do yet if I want to meaningfully contribute to mankind on a non-ordinary (play your role in the economy/society, reproduce, die to make way for subsequent generations) scale.

My overarching thoughts on legacy / purpose / meaning (all shades of the same color to me) are here:

The Purpose of Life from a Practical Point of View

Fact is, you will never know your legacy. You can be invisible in your time, and remembered later, like Van Gogh and Lovecraft, or revered in your time and largely discredited later, like Freud.

All you can do is make your best contributions to man and hope that man appreciates them, uses them, and benefits from them.

And try your best to care more about making an impact than being remembered… even if your mind is still trying to position itself on the chess board of post-mortem social status.

Chase

V's picture

How to get rid of this rejection in its entirety? Pt.1


Hey chase, I have to get this monkey off my back from the past that won't go away. I will make this into 3 separate comments to make it easier to read and answer.

I never had a rejection blow up so much in my whole life, it wasn't even a big deal to me, but it won't go away. This is about the girl you said that if she talks about rejecting you she's desperately trying to climb the social ladder back in the emotion cognition article. Anyway, I never invested in this girl at all or even chased, she chased me and was angry I told her I just wanted sex from her while I was in the bf zone. Ill explain in another comment what happened between us.

For this part I want to know.

1.Are these people making fun of it because they're such low value and trying to bring me down? They know I get a lot of girls and alot of people like me.

2. Is this girl lower status than me if she's desperately trying to climb the social ladder by talking about rejecting me?

3. Why is she even bringing it up when people talk about me in front of her?

4. What am I suppose to do if I ever see her again? Ignore her or put her in her place? Thanks chase

V's picture

Stopping people from bringing it up Pt.2


When ever I hear about the rejection it makes me feel kinda wack because shes not really a looker and the girls people see me get look better than her and I am very high status person, so I guess its funny to them. It really brings my confidence down to keep hearing it and being made fun of it, its like getting rejected by a two dollar hoe when your worth a million bucks.

For this part I just want to know how to get the rejection off my mind and everyone else's mind and make her and them stop talking about it.

Its this thought I get that's basically, she can say she rejected me all she wants while I date beautiful girls and it just pisses me off that I got rejected by a lower value ugly girl. You know what I mean?

Anyway, how do I stop them from talking all this shit? Her and the people in my social circle? I want it to stop spreading. Im feeling I might have to be violent against them and hurt them to show them whose boss and im not the one to fuck with.

V's picture

What's her behavior and to sleep or not to sleep with her Pt.3


Ill be honest, I want to sleep with this girl to get this monkey off my back and use it against her so she can stop talking shit and stop the other people too.

Ill tell you how are relationship pretty much went so you can give me an answer of to sleep with her or not.

Shes from work circle. She liked me and told me how she wanted to see me as much as possible, and was chasing me so hard. She put me in the bf zone, she told all her friends about me and her fam, she says I was her type and wanted to go out of her way for me and we didn't even see each other out of work yet.
So while she was telling me that I told her I pretty much wanted sex and that's it, she still was chasing me though and was pretty turned on by it. So basically she thought I was trying to make advances and rejected them and I told her off because I thought she was crazy for the way she was acting and why set us being alone together if she didnt want sex, but my mistake was she was putting lmr because after that she still stayed. So we never hung out again out side of work but she stilled chased after my attention, I hear and there very occasionally asked her to hang again but it never happened, I assumed she was messing with another dude so I left her alone and let her chase after my attention.

She left the job and we have no contact whatsoever.

Before I ask if I should sleep with her and how, id like to know a little bit about her behavior.

1. Why did she still want to have a one on one with me if we both knew I just wanted sex?

2. I pretty much treated her bad but she kept coming back like a moth to a flame. Id piss her off and she'd get mad at me but she always needed to talk to me. Why was she chasing me?

3. She kept saying were just friends, but when she was out with some dude and I happen to see her she was all over me leaving her friend in the background.

4. Back to the friend thing, she said we were just friends but she lied about talking to any dudes at all was afraid of me a little. She didn't tell me until before she left. I just want to know why lie about it if I don't give you anything and you see me as just a friend who doesn't even want to talk to you and treats you like shit.

What does her behavior sound like to you? I honestly feel like she's fucking obsessed with me, and angry that I put her in her place so she's trying to make me look bad.

Does she not like me or does she like me?

And then last part, im not going to chase her for sex but if we do meet again and she's on my shit, do I have a chance to sleep with her and should I sleep with her and how would I go about it?

Sorry for all the info but I need to erase this from my past. Thank you chase!!!!

Chase Amante's picture

Crazy Girl from Work

Author

V-

Rule #1 with women is this: never, ever tell a girl what you want with her, ESPECIALLY if it's just sex. Even if SHE just wants sex with you… STILL don't tell her.

Telling a woman you only want to sleep with her and nothing more is far more insulting to her than her telling you she only wants you as a friend and nothing more is to you. You're telling her she has zero value as a partner. In this case, this girl mistook whatever you were doing with her as clear signals on your part that you wanted her as a girlfriend (and she does sound crazy)… and then she went around telling everyone she knew that she wanted YOU as a BOYFRIEND… and then you told her you just wanted to sleep with her and that was it.

She HAD to throw you under the bus. If you told HER you only wanted sex from her, you clearly don't know how to be discrete, and don't know what to say and not say to a woman and about a woman - she has to assume you're going to tell everyone else you only want sex from her, and then she gets socially HUMILIATED (because she went around gabbing to everyone about how amazing you were and how she was going to make you her boyfriend, and then word gets out you though she was only fit for a pump-and-dump - she looks very low status, naïve, and stupid now).

She had to beat you to the punch and tell everyone else that SHE rejected YOU, that way you telling people you only wanted sex anyway would look like a defensive action.

She did the right thing here in her response to your "I only want sex from you" message. She was silly and naïve to start talking you up to all her friends and family, but you were silly to tell a girl who really liked you and had gone around telling everyone about her dreamy future boyfriend that the only thing you valued her as was a cheap fling.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, my friend.

If I was her, I'd have thrown you under the bus too, even though both of us were being socially retarded in our own ways here. She had to do it, for reputation's sake; you didn't leave her any choice in the matter.

Read this article:

Granting Social Status; and, Not Getting Thrown Under the Bus

… then, chill out. You messed up, and made a (crazy) girl feel really, really bad, and really, really stupid, and you forced her into a situation where either she was going to look like she got played, or you were, and she smartly chose to make you look like the one who got played. Them's the shakes.

Don't mess with crazy. That's another #1 rule there… that's Rule #1 of street smarts: don't mess with crazy. Because crazy ain't got nothin' to lose.

In the future: take care of women's emotions. Women really ARE very emotionally delicate; they're prone to all kinds of fantasies; and just like guys fall for girls and build them up to unrealistic proportions in their heads, girls do the same things to guys. I've had women I would NEVER want relationships with go all crazy about me and start telling all their friends about me and basically nuking any possibility of us ever sleeping together quickly. One such girl was a very beautiful but very crazy professional escort… not in a million years would I consider her dateable, but she somehow got it in her head that I was going to be her next boyfriend, and started telling everyone she knew what an amazing guy I was and how I was an actor and I had a role in a movie and all this stuff… once we ended up naked, she just stopped me cold from kissing or escalating at all, and sweetly but firmly told me she had to go to bed and it was crystal clear the only way we got together was in a traditional boyfriend-girlfriend way. I just didn't bother contacting her again. I saw her once, half a year later, before I moved away, and she was quite awkward around me - she knew she'd been rejected for a relationship. I didn't say anything, I was just relaxed and nice with her. Simply NOT pursuing is message enough. At least she still has room to wonder or make up an excuse for you. You don't need to rub it in by telling her and removing all doubt.

That's all you need; if she wants a relationship out of you, just drop it and move on. If she wants you as a boyfriend, you will NOT sleep with her fast, and she WILL get upset if after you sleep with her it doesn't turn into a relationship.

Should you sleep with her?

Well, all I can say was, did you like this drama? If so, just imagine it multiplied by about 100… that's what happens after you sleep with her, whether she ends up keeping you as her boyfriend or you end up giving her a one-and-done. She's already shown herself to be unbalanced and obsessive; if you invite her back into your life, prepare to be eviscerated.

As for the people talking about it, I don't know the situation on them or why they care so much, but my guess is, to them, it's just fun and games. None of them get laid; guys who get laid don't tease other guys about getting a rejection - they know that's how the game is played. It's the ones who aren't in the arena - the spectators - who throw tomatoes and call names.

Pay them no mind and stay on the grind.

Bonus tip: remember this incident any time you game girls at work, or girls from social circle - you need to be EXTRA delicate with girls from work or social circle if you don't want them making your life a living hell.

Cold approach, V; I'm telling you, man! It's where it's at.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Relationships


Hey Chase interesting article. I have a few questions mainly on relationships.

When you've picked up a girl and you've been sleeping with her for a while, how do you keep her happy and always wanting to come back?

Is it mainly about giving her good sex?

Because surely a lot of the stuff that led her to sleep with you to begin with will start to lessen in effect the more she becomes accustomed to sleeping with and seeing you? Things like your mysteriousness, deep diving in conversation, these things all get harder to do the more you two see each other as you start to find less to actually talk about in regards to who she is, and she starts to take you for granted etc. Surely a lot of that magic you had in order to pull her does wear off somewhat?

So how do you keep her interested?

Do you do much fun things with your girls, like movies, going out etc etc?

Also how many girls do you think is the perfect amount to be seeing regularly? I mean I would have thought more than 5 and things start to get a bit messy/hard to handle?

Another question is in regards to comfort. Say in a bar if I see a girl I want to talk to, I usually go over with a situational opener if possible or just a hi, followed by asking her if she's single an then exchanging names and asking how her days going. That's generally my opening scene if you like, after that I'll deepdive and get more personal. I realise how important it is to show a girl that your a safe guy and that she can be comfortable around you and if you do this early on it will relax her for the rest of the conversation.

I was just interested in how you get her feeling comfortable with you early on into an interaction? Before you start to dive deeper.

A lot of it must be your vibe I understand, but do you try to inject humour into the equation early on if possible, I always try by sometimes there is literally nothing funny to say.

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Relationships

Author

Anon-

Sex is critical, yes. The key to a man's heart is through his stomach, goes the saying, and the key to a woman's is through her vagina. I very much agree with both sentiments.

Deep diving is mainly used prior to sex. You won't really be using it too much with women after you've slept with them (although you might occasionally deep dive on some new subject she brings up with you). There's a honeymoon period that lasts for roughly 90 days; after that, a lot of the early intensity wears off, never to return (except in brief bursts for makeup sex following breakups or stretches of travel where you are out of town and she is waiting for you).

For maintaining interest over a longer period of time, and on things like taking girls you're seeing to movies, restaurants, etc., see:

How to Start a Relationship with a New Girlfriend

On how many girls is ideal to see: very much depends on your schedule, but if you're regularly seeing more than 2 or 3 girls, you'd better have a job with flexible hours / your own business that doesn't require regular office hours / be independently wealthy, otherwise every waking hour you're not at work will be devoted to relationship management. Might be good to do for the experience, but it won't be very enjoyable.

On getting girls comfortable prior to deep diving in an interaction, see this article:

Reaching the Hook Point with Girls

Chase

D's picture

Relationships. Practical experience needed?


Hey Chase,

First I just wanna say that your website is amazing. The way you present your ideas and your unique take on things is just remarkable. I’m sure I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say that you’re an inspiration to us all.

I just have this very interesting question for you.

So you know how you always talk about getting practical experience on escalating with girls, seducing them, getting together with them and all that. Just reading about it is not enough. I totally agree with you on this matter.

I have been doing that for quite a while now and I believe that I have become reasonably good at this. However, I feel as if I have been neglecting gaining experience on building and growing relationships as by picking up different girls all the time I don’t get into serious relationships. However, I really do want to get into a serious relationship with the woman I love when the time comes.

In that sense do you believe that getting “practical” experience on building and growing relationships (that means being through quite a few committed relationships and breakups) is important for maintaining a good relationship when you find the “one”?

Or is “practical experience” in a relationship context something that can be build and learnt along the way while you are already in a relationship with someone you love? Even though one has not had much prior experience to this relationship.

Or at least is this something that can more easily be learnt through reading? When compared to escalating with new girls etc.

I hope you can help me on this matter.

Thanks Chase!

Chase Amante's picture

Relationship Experience

Author

D-

If you're restricting yourself solely to one-night stands, that's a very different experience than what you'd get in a relationship. While some of the skills certainly are transferrable - much of the dominance, investment, sex, dealing with high pressure social interactions prior to the pull, value and presence, etc. - there's also a great deal that you only learn in the context of a relationship.

Even if you're a relationship natural (say, if you're someone who's fascinated with relationships and has been studying them all his life, even prior to being in one), there's a lot you won't get until you do it, and you're going to make mistakes and sabotage your first couple of relationships.

It sounds like you're still thinking of love rather idealistically, which means you're going to hit some bumps when you start having relationships... which is fine. You'll hit them, have some ups and downs, some sad farewells, and you'll figure out how to be strong from the beginning and how to run a relationship without fear of loss making you weak or untrue to yourself.

But you won't get those experience until you're actually IN relationships - so if you're concerned about having your A-game when you meet the girl(s) of your dreams, it's probably good to start focusing on meeting girls you like a lot and want in relationships and getting them into those relationships to learn.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Chase, been reading the site


Chase, been reading the site for a month just skimming around and decided this is some unique stuff that sounds fun to try out but I have some reservations. I don't want to sound selfish but it seems that we as guys can improve ourselves so much and yes we can probably in time get very beautiful women but can they offer us anything else besides their beauty and sex? I will admit that I have little experience with women but I live in a place where women want so much but they seem to offer so little. Let me ask you a question.
Can you look back in your life before you decided to enter that first club to start getting good with women, would you say it was worth it, spending many hours with women coupled with confusion and irritation to get to where you are now, instead of say pursuing a skill that will help your career you decided to get good with women but is it worth it, sacrificing so many hours and years only to be met with even more challenges and demands from women. Many other guys decide not to do what you did and decided to do something else only later to get what you worked even harder to get, only difference is that they are wealthier or more powerful,connected, they feel more fulfilled with the work they have done.
Really what do you get from women that those men do not? For mating purpose yes beautiful women are a boon, but what else can they provide you besides good looking children and sex, can they give you what you cannot get yourself besides those things I mentioned. Why bother to become such a fantastical man that this site inclines us to be when we can get the same results if we spend those hours into something more productive?
Really enlighten me what do you get from women that other more powerful, wealthy accomplished men do not?

Chase Amante's picture

What's the Point of Learning Dating & Relationships?

Author

Anon-

It's absolutely worth the stress and doubt and irritation.

Most men who make good careers for themselves make them because in the back of their minds they're thinking that business success = mating success. Imagine their surprise when they find that a million dollar home and a six-figure luxury vehicle don't automatically land them top caliber women, and instead all they get are nightclub VIP section gold diggers or the homely girl who works in their department at work.

For some people the point of learning seduction is pure hedonism, but for most guys it's really about freedom from having to worry about women as a distraction. It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs; until sex and mating and reproduction is handled such that you know you can get whatever you want more or less on-demand, it's always going to serve as a distraction, pulling your mind away from whatever else it might dwell on. I can sure tell you that prior to learning girl skills I spent 95% of my free time thinking about women, but these days it's more like 3%. My brain has women figured out and doesn't need to obsess over them anymore - I'm free to focus on nobler pursuits.

As far as other men getting what I got later without putting the work in - haven't really seen it. I've watched guys around me who weren't willing to put the work in get their panties in knots over mediocre-caliber women, I've stared in horror and disbelief as wealthy guys sobbed over club girls who were busily chase down their next fling, and I've seen powerful, confident men turn into weeping mounds of quivering emotion when their perfect-seeming wives decided they were no longer interested in them and ditched them for something "better". Dating and relationships are a skill like anything else - you get back what you put in. Don't work for it, you don't get it, or will struggle to hang onto what you luck into by chance. Most of the men I know with strong, happy long-term relationships figured out dating and relationships on their own, usually starting in their teens. The handful of others are men who have a life mission they believe in strongly enough that a woman never becomes the center point of their existence, and so they never become weak in their relationships like so many men do.

As far as what women add to the picture… with a few exceptions (Newton, Tesla, da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc.), most great men have had smart, iron-willed women behind them pushing them forward. It's amazing how often men lose their edge and never get it back after their wives leave them, too - Tiger Woods is a good recent example.

Personally, the girlfriends I've had have been some of the most influential, life-changing people I've had in my life - but then, I'm extremely careful in my selection of mate, too. If you want to do anything worthwhile, you need a good mate - a pedestrian wife makes a pedestrian life.

Unless you are driven by demons to achieve something, however - if that's the case, you may be able to do as Tesla and forsake women entirely to focus on your contributions to the species.

Otherwise, it probably pays to get the skills down that women are never a distraction to you again, and instead only a boon.

Chase

Heart Cooks Brain's picture

Always something NEW to work on


That's why I love this site. I gravitated here back in late March/early April and haven't looked back. I happened to be searching for articles on what to do when girls don't text back. At the time I was severely depressed that this Persian girl I thought I was going to seal the deal with all of a sudden got cold and I never heard back from her again although I see she constantly logs on the dating website I met her at. My fundamentals were so bad that I don't blame her now. But for a few weeks I really hated her guts.

Nowadays I feel like the "ME" from late 2012 and early 2013 is somewhat of a stranger, albeit I have a lot to work on. Kind of like a construction crew that have built the first few floors of a 100 story building. Have a long way to go but at least the construction is ongoing and not put on hold as it has been for the majority of my life. I remember purchasing the eBook "How To Become An Alpha Male" back in 2008, read through it, initially got excited about changing myself, and then completely abandoned the notion rather quickly. Going back to my analogy it would was like coming up with the blue prints for an architectural project and then abandoning it indefinitely.

....Anyways in regards to this article, just as you think you have one thing handled, there is always something else that needs adjustment that may have been ignored or unrecognized until now. I seem to be an odd hybrid of the past-negative and future-goal-oriented archetypes. When I'm depressed the Present-fatalistic. I am very low in Present-hedonistic although the biggest exception is when I utilize the services of escorts. I always had a negative view of club goers, partying types, and those that impulsively get tattoos/piercing/etc (Present-hedonistic behavior). They typically are not into "deep" things whether it be music, history, theories, films, etc. They seem to always latch onto the trends and like things I would consider shallow and superficial. The types that listen to top 40 radio, anticipate the releases of the endless amount of comic book remake films, the sequels to films I thought sucked to begin with, watch reality TV, and are obsessed with social networking websites. Ok I'll end the rant there.

I really need to focus on getting farther and farther away from the past-negative archetype. I seem to hang out with friends that have this too. The type of guys that at 25+ never had girlfriends, were virgins, and talked about how much they hated women. All of us had the victim complex (it's because I'm fat!, because I'm short!, I don't have chiseled features!, I'm Asian!). We all lost our V cards through using escorting networks but it did not help us improve our skills in any way. My other friends that were more successful with women liked me for my dark humor and cynical observations (kind of like a Larry David), but my negativity would often come back to haunt me and I was always an outsider with the so-called "normal" guys. I would often have to revert to my negative friends to feel more at home since I could not relate to having a girlfriend or taking about my sexual conquests (and bragging about paying escorts for sex seemed stupid and embarrassing).

At the same time I have always been interested in self-improvement but my negativity and/or depression got into the way of taking action. Throughout much of my life I would revert from thinking about the past (often negatively) and thinking about the future (often more in a positive way or fantasizing about success in life). I never really concentrated on the present moment though since my mind went back in forth between the other states to a point that I never acted on anything. Seems like the new age trend is to focus more on the present but that can be bad in the case of the present-hedonists. All about the ying and yang I guess.

Chase...

After the new found knowledge on the different time zones one leans towards I wonder if you can tell what type of person one is simply by the music they listen to, films they like, and books they read. Kind of a way of screening girls on online dating sites if they mention those things. For instance I would much rather see a girl saying she watches Breaking Bad versus saying she watches Glee, reality TV, Sex and the City (lol). I would imagine the past-positive people would appreciate good classic rock, 80s music, etc. The past-negatives/present-fatalists would probably like goth, emo, black/death metal, grunge, and/or niche genres in general. Noticed must of my negative friends will always say things like rock music sucks after grunge! There will never be another Kurt Cobain. Future-oriented-goal types would probably like newer and hipper music like indie, electro, chillwave, and other niche music (but more positive and less depressing than preferences of past-negative/present-fatalist types). Ah this could be a wild theory with no validity though, hehe.

Chase Amante's picture

Time Orientation and Music / TV Show Selection

Author

Brian-

Wonderful to see you making strides. Yeah, it's funny when you look back and are like, "Well... I may have hated her before, but I can't really blame her now!"

On music / TV shows - this sounds right to me. I can't say with absolute certainty what someone's given preferences will be, but you'll definitely hear a lot more negative talk from negative people, and they tend to be more attracted to negative music / TV, and be more closed-minded in general. They're the kinds of people you will hear, "No, that doesn't work," or, "No, it's impossible," or, "No, you're all wrong," whenever you suggest something (like newer music, for instance).

It's all emotional feedback loops - the mind wants to stay in whatever their emotion it's currently in, so it seeks out stimuli that can keep it there, rather than stimuli that will jar with what it's feeling presently.

Watch what kind of stimuli someone seeks, and you can guess at what's going on inside his or her head.

Chase

RobertH's picture

PUA vids


Chase I've recently been getting into field reports in your forum, really cool but overlooked part of this site btw, the only reason I even took a look at it was when you talked about the importance of field reports in the article on sticking points. One thing in topic lately has been learning from PUA in field videos like Sasha Daygame and James Marshall which im sure your aware exists. The videos are great and all but a lot of the stuff they teach and do is quite different and against the grain of what you teach and do (from what I've gathered at least). I personally feel like you would blow the door off these guys, not patronizing but they seem to make a lot of mistakes in contrast to what you talk about reactions vs. results, etc... I was wondering what your thoughts would be of you making some infield videos of you doing daygame or at least just the audio, I feel ,especially to us beginners, it could do some wonders having someone we can trust to emulate. No offense to Sasha I really admire how he goes out and lives life how he wants but im not trying to emulate jumping out in front of girls and being all high energy and melodramatic, just not my style. James marshall is cool but strikes me as fairly boring. I don't know if making videos of you running daygame is something you would even consider as it may not be your style to secretly film women but im curious to what you have to say on the subject. If anything your opinion on the fellow PUAs on youtube, is their wisdom to be gained or is it a bad example of what we should be doing?

Thanks,
Rob

Chase Amante's picture

Re: PUA vids

Author

Rob-

I've only seen a handful of videos with guys doing approaches. Sasha's a cool cat from talking to him via email, although I haven't seen any of his videos, so nothing I can weigh in with there. A German friend of mine named Mateo has some pretty good in-field videos up on YouTube (at Royal Flush Seduction), although you'll probably only be able to get body language and tonality out of these unless you speak German, as I believe their all in his native tongue (though body language and tonality are arguably a lot more valuable than whatever words are being used).

I've seen some videos by Justin Wayne that I thought were not bad; he gets a little game-y at points, but overall you could do a lot worse for day game, and it's hard to not do day game in a game-y way.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Got to say man, tyte site


Got to say man, tyte site just wondering though

How long have been doing pickup?

when you started vs right now, what would you say your success rates are at, like say 50 women how many of them could you pickup?

Would you say you can pickup very very beautiful women compared to when you started?

Thanks a bunch

Chase Amante's picture

History

Author

Anon-

Success rates are highly variable based on the venue and the kind of approaches done. If I'm doing highly targeted pickup - where I'm only approaching women I have a strong feeling are into me - my success rate at getting those girls in bed is very high; it feels like 1-for-2 there, but that may be confirmation bias. If I'm doing large scale cold approaching where it's a lot less targeted and focused more on pure numbers, it's around one girl in bed per 25 to 50 approached, depending on venue. My success rates starting out where of course a lot lower; I'd probably bed one in 15 or 20 highly targeted women then, and maybe one out of 300 mass cold approaches when very new (2005-2006ish).

There's more about when and how I started here: Our Folks.

Chase

Janna0846's picture

please point me out some direction


Hey chase ~ first of all , must say thank you. without this website, i couldn't get my first western girl.

But after meeting with girl , it also brings me a big issue. I FALL IN LOVE with her.

We have been together for half year, and our relation is like on and off. we started to have big arguement on the fourth month of our relation, then it never ends.

1 The main reason is the gril started to be cold for me, and later I realized she was flirting with some guy with sexy word from the facebook, but never met. after she realized I knew it , she stopped but never apologized or promised that this kind of thngs will never happen again , which makes us a very big issue.
starting from here ,i started to have trust issue with her.

2 she always said she didn't know what she wants , and starting from the fourth month where we started to have arguement , she is like one week cold for me and one week hot for me or saying somethings like she doesn't feel anything. and my way of handling this kind of issue is to just be cold for her too, but often gets angry , and she could see that too .

but she always comes back first , and sending some nice message for me ,and then we came back together but then arguement ...back arguement back .... like a vicious cycle.

3 She sometimes tells me that she thought I am too short for her ,which makes her feel not feminine enough. i am 173 and she 174. is that really a problem for the girl about guy's height ? .
plus it's just 1or 2cm difference.

4 She is the kind of girl that makes you fall in love so much but also hates it sometimes.

She gives me the sense of the difinition of HOME.

she invites me to her home , to her parent's anniversary where a lots of her relative also came, introducing me to a lots of her friends. It all makes me feel she really wants to engage me into her life~

5 I broke up with her on the 5 month of our relation seriously... but after few days , she kept sending me some very sad message about how good person i am ,and how i am so special to her life compared to other guy she met. Also, makes me a bracelet with the word HOPE on it, giving me my favorite baseball from paris. then i came to her house to see her before I left europe but i will be back after two months.

We had SEX and very lovely life the last three days before i left europe.then I came back to my country , still talking with her for a very very nice time for 10days....them she started to be COLD on me again for three weeks....and telling me again everything feels like we are good friends....and i am the best guy friend she ever met. then we talked over the phone, things looked fine again.

6 by the way, we got sex problem before after the big arguement, she started not want me to touch her on and off.

7she is very honest as far as i can tell because she told me about she broked up with her fiance whom they stayed together for 3and half years because the feeling wasn't right..

she told me this on the first time of our date.

We met in the student club where she tapped me on the dance floor after i finished my chatting with her and her friends before in the student club.

then we started to kiss , and first date after 5 days. eveything seems so smoothly....

8 She always said i am too serious when we talked about our problems. but her mood is the same, chaning very fast.

my question is in the following :

1 what the hell does she want.??... I broke up with her twice, and she always came back crying or sending or doing some nice thing.
especially, the bracelet and drawing a big heart on the beach with my name inside the big heart.
and when i accepted her back , she changed again after maybe one or two weeks.

what the hell is her mixing signal ?

2 Is there any recommended articles on this blog that i should read to get the answer...?

3 It is really driving me crazy ....and by the way, I tried to date the other girl but it just seems like this original girl is really into me.
cant forget or get rid of her .
can't sleep well... can't do anything else when this probelm always bothering me.

I really want to get out of this mess... so please point me out some direction.

4 is that the right theory about if a girl who approaches you at the begining , always gone fast ?

I mean generally speaking, a girl who is more active, sending you message first doing some nice thing, showing the sign that she wanted the kiss again. Does that mean this girl shound't be the girl that you pursue as a girlfriend??

Really appreciate for it .

Albert

Chase Amante's picture

Borderline Personality

Author

Albert-

I have a hunch - the wild mood swings, the hot and cold, the telling you she wants to be good friends, and then freaking out when you leave, the strong feelings you get toward her, her charisma, her volatile emotions, her high levels of flirtatiousness, hypersensitivity to your emotions in arguments and at other times - this sounds a lot like borderline personality disorder (BPD). Check this article out:

Symptoms of BPD

If this is her, you'll know it after reading this.

Women with borderline (assuming that is what she has) can be very captivating and engaging, and they're extremely adept at flattery and ingratiating themselves and making you feel like an amazing person when they want to, but also very good at dismissing you and tearing you down and making you feel wretched when they want to too, and you'll go crazy after a time trying to keep them happy... it's an impossible job. Everyone I know who's tried basically ends up tearing his hair out in the end, but it's a wild emotional roller coaster in the process, filled with high highs and low lows.

People with BPD are extremely impulsive and will do whatever they feel like doing then in the moment, with very little thought to long-term consequences. The borderline's mentality is, "Eh, he'll never know... and besides, I'm a victim and I have a right to [fill in the blank]!" They do things impulsively, mess their lives up, then panic and pull out all the stops trying to fix what they've just broken.

Then, once things are sufficiently patched up again, they go do more things impulsively and mess their lives up again. They essentially have one gigantic perpetual self-destructive streak that they just keep repeating again and again.

You can't control anybody, but you can at least have a modicum of stability and predictability with most people... with borderlines, you have none. The only thing you can predict is that her behavior will be unpredictable, and you'll probably end up walking on eggshells around her.

If BPD is indeed what she has, there's not much I can say that you can do different aside from "find someone a bit more normal."You can't change her behavior, and she won't grow out of it until she's in her mid-30s or 40s... and even then, her behavior will still remain rather extreme.

You can try to hang in there if you're really crazy for her, but if you're like most people, at some point, it will reach a point where it's just too much to handle.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Old Crush


Hey Chase,

Please read this! I am in a huge need of help!! I really need an experts opinion

I just reconnected up with a girl that I haven't seen or really talked to all of high school (we texted a bit freshman year). We have known each other since 5th grade, when both had Huge crushes on eachother. But back then I didn't want to make a move because shes honestly the perfect girl for me and I didn't want to be just another person she like in middle school, you know? and plus you cant do as much in 5th grade as you can when older.

Right now we are soon going to college and she's technically broken up with her boyfriend but he wants to be back w her in a long distance relationship in college. To be honest this guy is a flake with her and a player so he cheats a lot.

In the three times we have hung out together, we sat out on the beach for like 4 hours and after had dinner; she made me a pancake on her birthday, which she was doing that for all her close girl friends that morning; and the most recent event was, we went to san Francisco for the Entire day and walked around the main touristy places which was fun and then went to a "top of a mountain" place with a good view around sunset. She has mentioned how she had a big crush on me like twice now in our conversations and once on the "top of the mountain" place. We have a great connection and can talk about Anything for hours on end.

She has liked and messed around with a lot of guys since 5th grade and is pretty open about sex, like she has made out with girls who were her friends. So she is definitely a girl who likes sex and is the kinky/horny type when you turn her on.

But my problem with her (and other girls) is I can flirt and say all the right things to imply I want to have sex and makeout with her but when it comes to the Moment when I have to actually act and follow through I can never get it to where I can make a move without A: making a complete cheesy line hinting at what I want or B: becoming super quiet and chickening out.

What should I do when I get to this situation?? so that I can makeout and kiss her because I'm a good passionate kisser once im in it but making myself actually start the kiss is hard.

And also, shes like the girl of my dreams (blonde, part Italian, kinky, and likes to mess around) but should I act now?? (like the last "hang out" we have before we leave for college which starts in a week and a half) or should I wait until after college to make my move with her?

I am in dire need of any of your thoughts!

thank you, and sorry for the long note

Janna0846's picture

thanks for your advices reaaly appreciate it


The next day after you replied me , I found out she was cheating on me with hard evidence from the message when I just left her for two weeks.

My problem right now is .... we always go to one same club , and right now I think I got problem with seeing her with new guy, which makes me feel terrible.

And the image of her sleeping on the new guy's bed , and texting me just keeps haunting me....How am i going to save myself faster out of this mess and move on to the new one ?

And if we will see each other at the club, I will become not being myself, which has a reaaly high chance for us to meet at the same club.

Could you give me some direction about how to get rid of the shadow of ex girlfriend whom I really used to love.

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