I just wanted to shoot you a quick message to say thanks for answering all my questions - I have your blog on my Chrome start bar now and love reading all the articles (and my game has improved a lot).
I got your blog address from over at mASF where i post occasionally under Lachstar; if you have some spare time, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Neo-Rio's manwhore style of game, which seems both directly opposed to your style (in that it seems cold and impersonal, whereas yours is warm and giving) and also complimentary (getting the girls to chase him, etc). I've been reading a bit about his style of game and I have some mixed feelings about it. Like - where does he get his affection from? He'd get his sexual needs met, for sure, but affection would be hard to get simply being a whore for girls.
Anyway, thanks again, and if you want to respond to my email or post it somewhere on your blog, either is good. Can't wait for the book!
Thanks for writing, Lachstar. Lach raises some interesting questions here. He’s referring to a poster (Neo-Rio) over on a seduction forum called mASF, who has a style of seduction that Lach describes as rather cold. This post is written as a reply to Lach’s email, outlining my thoughts on Neo-Rio’s approach and what differences and similarities exist between his and my take on seduction.
I asked Lach if he could detail Neo-Rio’s style a bit more, as I’ve heard of the gent but am really behind the ball on staying up with different cats’ methods and approaches these days, and he gives the following description:
Basically his feeling on the subject is that women see us men as whores - be it providers of sex, money, attention or whatever. So he has cut his game down to the point where he goes out and acts attractively; if logistics prevent a same-night lay, he will give the girl his phone number and make no attempt to call her or get her number whatsoever. He is upfront about only offering sex to a girl, and not offering anything else like friendship or what have you. So basically he will not chase a girl one iota, and only girls that are into sex call him, come over, fuck, and then leave. Its a very reductionist, black and white, and sort of divisive in that women are only used for sex, but so is he. Its very much a time-management focused type of game.
So Neo-Rio’s approach, according to Lachstar’s description, is that he offers women nothing but intimacy with them, and is very clear about that. As for my thoughts on this, I wrote this post to lay them out.
What I Offer Girls
There are actually a lot more similarities here than differences to my own style of seduction. I maybe try to have a warmer view of women, whereas it sounds that Neo-Rio’s is a bit more cynical with a “women view men as whores” view that I can’t say I’d agree with, but in practice our styles sound none-too-different. Here are the similarities:
- Getting girls to pursue
- Directness in looking for rapid intimacy
- Not offering friendship
- Focused on efficiency and time management
- Relationships are mostly about intimacy
I am vehemently anti-“friends with women,” because 1) I think this confuses women a lot, and 2) I think this creates the scenario where a woman overvalues a man for his friendship and undervalues a man for his capacity as a lover. Good friends are hard to come by, so when a man starts seeming like he’s a great friend to a woman, she will absolutely not jeopardize that by sleeping with him most of the time. This is why these days I don’t do group outings with girls, I don’t take girls along on fun activities, I don’t let girls bring their friends on dates with me, I don’t go shopping or watching romantic comedies with women, and I basically don’t to anything that might possibly, potentially be interpreted as me being great friend material. When women I intend to sleep with invite me on friendship outings, I decline, and reschedule another time when it’ll be just the two of us and we can get together. I view group / friendship stuff as not only unproductive and a waste of my time, but actually destructive to my cause because it gets the girl viewing me more as a friend than a potential lover.
If you can’t imagine James Bond doing something (e.g., going to the movies with a girl he hasn’t bedded, or going purse shopping with her), you probably shouldn’t do it either.
My relationships also are about mostly sex. I talk to girls too – or, they talk to me – but every time I see a girl we sleep together, and we sleep together very often. I make it a point personally to make intimacy a girl’s #1 favorite thing about being with me, and something that she routinely chases after. I just spent the weekend with my girlfriend, and we slept together seven times this weekend, which isn’t very much for me and only was so low because I was a little out of sorts and had to turn her down a few times when she wanted it. Actually, there were times this past weekend I wanted to go out and do stuff but my girlfriend just wanted us to stay in. “What if we go to see the movie and I want to kiss you?” she said. What she actually meant was, “What if we go to see the movie and I get horny?” She didn’t want to have to wait two hours if she started lusting for me.
This is a girl who’d had one lover before, hadn’t had sex in two years and had hardly thought about it, and, when I got her, at first kept trying to sleep with me as infrequently as possible and claimed to not like sex.
Much of my vibe is highly seduction-focused these days. I want that women instantly see me and start thinking about intimacy. In the past few months, I’ve had some very quick pick ups; I’ve had women meet me for our first date and we went straight back to my apartment and got together; I’ve slept with new girls within a few hours of the start of our first date the majority of the first dates I’ve been on. I think most of the guys in the pick up community are focused on being fun entertainer guys and getting girls to like them. I’m not though, and it doesn’t sound like Neo-Rio is either. All we’re doing is leading girls to the bedroom.
Women Chasing, and What Women Want
From Lach’s description, I only see two visible differences between Neo-Rio’s approach and mine, but both might be technicalities:
- He gives out his number and doesn’t take numbers, leaving the chasing to girls, and
- He views women as viewing men as whores.
Regarding not taking numbers and only giving them, I don’t do this specifically because I know there are some women out there who won’t text you no matter how much they like you simply because they get nervous or afraid to do it. But when I was writing my book recently and trying to find an example text message conversation where I was responsible for setting up the date, I realized I didn’t have any at all recently. Girls are pushing for all the dates with me these days. At least when it comes to texting. Don’t get me wrong, I have no qualms about doing it myself, I just… haven’t needed to.
Regarding viewing women as viewing men as whores, my opinion is kinder but the thrust is the same. As discussed in “What Women Want,” I believe that women are looking for primarily three potential things out of men:
Most men, when competing for women, try to position themselves either as friends or as providers. What both I and Neo-Rio are talking about, though, is making it clear to women we are not these things. I’m a strong advocate of telling women you’re not boyfriend material and of not being an early boyfriend specifically because it’s my opinion that offering a girl all this value before getting together with her (or even after, as the case may be) absolutely nukes your odds of bedding her.
Show her you’re too great a guy, and you may never get a girl. She may value you too highly to risk fast intimacy with you, and then it just never happens.
Cutting Out the Confusion
The whole point of all this “not being a boyfriend” and “mostly offering intimacy” is that it cuts out the confusion with women and makes it clear to them what kind of man you are. Women will move tentatively with a man they’re on uncertain footing with. Women assess you in the following order:
- Friend potential
- Provider potential
- Lover potential
In other words, a girl’s first question is, “Will this guy make a good friend?” If you’re nice and fun and accommodating and are nervous around her and value her more highly than yourself and you go out of your way to help her or support her and you try to bring lots of fun and excitement and entertainer value to an interaction with her, her answer is going to be “yes,” and at that point you stop getting assessed and she is thrilled to have a new friend she can be buddies with and hang out with and talk about her problems with and all that jazz.
With friends, sex is off the table, and girls get surprised and alarmed and feel cheated if the friend guy tries to make a move for them later on down the road. Friends are asexual and not open for consideration as bedmates.
If in fact you fail the friends assessment, the next question is, “Will this guy make a good provider?” If you have a great job (relative to a girl’s own earning power and social standing), pay for things for her, take her to expensive places, treat her as if she’s pure and fragile, and express your beliefs that women must be sheltered and protected and cared for and treated with kid gloves at all times, or if you show judgmental qualities and traits that belie your belief that women should be pure and proper, you get a “yes,” and she stops assessing you here. She’s now found a potential provider, and will slow-game you and do her best to position herself as a thing of purity and goodness as she seeks a long-term relationship with you.
If you fail both the friends question and the providers question, the next question is, “Will this guy make a good lover?” If you’re a sexy man, roguish, living an adventurous life, not tied down the way friends and providers are, charming, edgy, and interesting to talk to but also quite mysterious and intriguing, you get a “yes” and the girl wants to bed you fast.
My game these days, and I’d imagine Neo-Rio’s as well, is geared towards getting “nos” on the friends and providers assessments and “yeses” on the lovers assessment.
So, I’m not fun. I’m not entertaining. I don’t take girls shopping or to movies or to tennis matches or other things they can do with their girlfriends or platonic guy friends, at least not before I’ve bedded them a few times (and even then, I don’t do these things a whole lot once we’re seeing each other). I don’t pay for things for women – in fact, more often than not, they pay for me. I don’t position myself as a secure guy – I let them know my life is unstable, I don’t have any kind of reliable income, and for all I know I may be out of the country tomorrow. Even when I had a stable, prestigious job in Southern California, I sought to present myself as an aspiring writer and artist, and it worked. Writers are far more likely to be taken as lovers than businessmen are. Women want relationships with businessmen.
Where the Lover Gets Affection
So with all this bedding of women and not seeking relationships, are lovers then rather lonely and devoid of female attention?
I always think of a scene from The Wedding Singer, where Adam Sandler’s character is talking to Allen Covert’s character, who was a guy with a moustache always sleeping with new girls. Allen Covert’s character professed to hating the procession of women and wanting a girl he could call his own. The implication was, it’s lonely being the lover and it’s better to be the provider; what you get as the provider is the “real deal,” and lovers are just something women do for fun on their way to finding their providers.
Well, as it turns out, that’s all social policing hocus. Society does a lot of social policing to try to keep people in line and make sure everyone does what he’s supposed to do. If suddenly a lot of men stopped wanting to be providers, society wouldn’t know what to do with itself because mainstream society is structured as a provider-centric culture. Being a provider is encouraged as “good” while being a lover is discouraged as “bad.”
Truth? The lover gets far more affection from women than either the friend or the provider. How can this possibly be so?
For all the Hollywood movies that depict friends as reliable and eventually winning in the end with women and lovers as disposable wastes of space, it doesn’t add up to reality. I suspect the reason these stereotypes persist is because it’s all the jilted friendly guys are writing up their fantasies of the friend getting the girl, depicting the guys who actually got the girls they wanted as the bad guys. The lovers are too busy enjoying their women to sit and write a script about how they get their women as the lonely friend guys stand by watching cluelessly and helplessly.
Friends are what are truly disposable to women. My girlfriend has guys she’s been friends with for about a year who have clearly been trying to sleep with her. I’ve been with her for a month, and she’s in love with me. I pointed out to her that these friend guys of hers are really just guys who want to have sex with her, but are lying about their intentions and trying to be nice because they’re afraid. She came over crying on Friday because she finally realized what I said and told one of these guys she thought was her friend off when he made a pass at her, and he got pissy and said she “wasn’t useful” to him. She realized these guys are just weak men pretending to be nice to try and get in her pants. The guy who got all pissy and said she wasn’t useful to him called her the next morning to apologize, of course, while she was lying in bed with me with her body covered in sweat and other bodily fluids.
These “friends” have been “working on” my girlfriend for a year, see her frequently at work or after hours, and buy her lunch and dinner and give her advice. I slept with her after spending a total of two hours with her, she pays for lunch and dinner with me 75% of the time, and we’ve known each other one-tenth or one-twelfth of the amount of time she’s known these guys. But if I told her to stay away from them, she’d listen. Actually, I told her this weekend, because she was so upset and needed to know how to deal with them as it seems they’re getting more aggressive, just to keep it professional with them and stop doing things outside of work because she’s probably giving them the wrong idea. I also told her to tell them, “I have a boyfriend. Please don’t touch me,” when they try stroking her hair or other such things (her telling a guy not to touch her when he rubbed her nose was what prompted the “you’re not useful to me” blow up by the spiteful friend-zone coworker guy on Friday afternoon).
And providers? Think they get a woman’s full affection? Guess again. Women are too busy trying to seem like good girls with pure hearts and pristine sexual records for them to feel that a provider ever fully knows them. And it’s only when a woman feels you fully know her that her feelings toward you ever reach their absolute potential. With a lover, whom she isn’t posing and posturing with, she’s honest – more honest, actually, than she is within anyone else in her life. With a man she has a sexual relationship with, but no future with, she finally has someone she can talk about her deepest secrets with and not be judged on or jeopardize her future over.
Being a girl’s lover means you get better treatment than either the friends or the providers / boyfriends / husband-candidates. And the funny thing is, the better people treat you, the more they tend to like you, the stronger their feelings for you get, and the warmer they are around you. Lovers get more affection than either the friends or providers.
The Lover Isn’t Cold
One other thing I probably ought to point out is that lovers actually aren’t cold. It’s easy to read guys’ writing online and think they must be these aloof, cynical men that women fall all over themselves for regardless of their cold, aloof cynicism, and it’s easy to read about how friends and providers get second-rate (or third-rate, in the friend’s case) treatment and start thinking, “Oh, how horrible women are! I don’t like them anymore,” and then get a little cynical yourself. But you must not do this.
Every man I have ever met who was skilled with women was actually quite warm with them. I have never met a man who did well with women and was cold and aloof in person. I’ve even met men who came across cold and aloof and cynical online, and I’m always surprised at how warm and charming these men appear in-person, both with women and with people in general. The only reason you don’t hear about this more is because I think most guys don’t think to talk about it, or aren’t aware of the discrepancy in how they come off online versus how they are in real life.
Lovers, in fact, aren’t cold. They aren’t aloof, and they aren’t cynical. You meet them in real life and they’re usually some of the warmest, most charming, most gracious people you will ever meet. So be careful not to go thinking the way to a woman’s heart is by being a dick – it’s rather instead by screening yourself out for the things you don’t want to be considered for in a woman’s life, and being warm and sexy and inclusive on the lover side of things.
Because women don’t just want sex – they want romance, too. But most love stories in romance novels aren’t really about slow-building romances, where the man and woman begin as friends and end up, years later, as husband and wife. Most love stories are about two people who meet, connect rapidly, and go to bed with great speed and incredible passion. This is what women want – the sex is only part of the story. The passion and the romance – done with speed and charm – is the rest.
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