Insights from the Mind of a Seducer

Outcome Independence; or, Not Missing a Beat

outcome independenceA guy walks up to a girl.

He starts a conversation. She's from out of town.

They exchange pleasantries, chat a little bit, have a bit of back and forth.

He's not feeling it though; she isn't really into him, and he can tell.

She invites him to swing by her town sometime. He knows this is a polite brushoff.

He smiles, tells her he appreciates it, says he's going to do a little more circulating, gives her a wink, and leaves.

That guy's cool... isn't he?

Actually, the correct way of describing him would be "outcome independent."

This isn't the comprehensive "how to be cool" post that some folks have asked me to write... that one will require a large block of uninterrupted time for me to sit down and put together. But I do want to talk about one of the elements of being cool: that thing known as outcome independence.

My Wedding Speech

Yesterday, a friend of mine got married in Bali. The friend was my roommate in college, a partner of mine in three (failed) businesses, and someone I'd spent countless hours on the phone and in person dispensing "people" advice to (friendships, relationships, being a better manager), and receiving business and financial advice from. We'd traveled together on a number of different trips around the world, and I'd spent plenty of time crashing at his places and he'd spent plenty of time crashing at mine. Both of us have told one another (me grudgingly, since I'm not fond of emotional displays) at various times over the years that we were each others' best friends, and he'd told me many times that whenever he got married, he wanted me as his best man.

I attended his wedding, at a huge, beautiful private villa complex and grounds overlooking the ocean, with palm trees and sculpted pools and large gray monkeys running about on the roofs. In the reception I was seated at the farthest corner of the farthest table from the bride and groom. I was not asked to be the best man or a groomsman. I understand why.

His bride doesn't like me - I thought she wasn't good enough for him, and counseled him against her; he told her as much... and she felt betrayed that when I'd stayed at their apartment and she'd shown me about town and been a great host (while my friend was out of the country), I told him about her running out and disappearing for a long day with a male friend immediately after a big, blow-up fight they had over the phone in the apartment, and offered to find out if she was going, or would go, behind his back. She's told him repeatedly that she hates me. And I can't really blame her... were our positions reversed, I imagine I'd feel the same way.

wedding speech

The message at the wedding was clear enough. I was tucked away in a corner to be as invisible (and cause as little trouble) as possible. I respected that message, and stayed out of the way. I kept to my corner most of the night, long after everyone else at the table had left for the bar or the dance floor, and only joined the rest of the party toward the end of the evening, when the wait staff stopped coming around and the only way to get a drink was to go up to the front of the grounds.

I wasn't asked to make a speech - that duty fell to my friend's brother, and to a guy he'd recently met now serving as a groomsman - but if I had been, here's the one I would have made.

Meeting Girls in Messy Situations / Friends Around

meeting girls in messy situationsA fellow named Estate - one of our forum members - has been meeting women in bars and nightclubs, and recently expressed some frustration that opening scenarios are rarely as "clean" as how you'll find them described in most articles on opening new conversations, like these:

Specifically, Estate lists out scenarios he's run into that don't seem to fit the simpler mold you'll see in how-to articles:

Some situations I come across:

  • Girl in circle of friends (as described above), she's cut off from a direct approach without moving her friends or engaging them. I guess the only answer, like you say is to simply engage them and work the group. Not to be lazy here but it feels like you are exerting a lot more time and effort here when potential for reward is probably smaller since you are essentially competing for her attention and taking time to navigate the group who will naturally be protective (especially if her group includes guys clearly into her as above). Working your way through the group no matter how smooth, I don't think anyone is fooled by it.
  • Girls who are too "flighty"... the social butterfly perhaps but she is just bouncing around from place to place, bar, dance floor, upstairs, downstairs... getting her attention, calming her down to allow her to be isolated for any length of time.
  • Girls who give off all the "IOI"s. For example a cute Brazilian girl I met Friday, she kept hovering around me, looking at me, brushing off and bumping into me, even "unknowingly" dancing up against me even though there was plenty space.... yet when I open, she acts almost un-interested... this girl actually bored me as I expected her to be somewhat chatty or friendly and I moved on, only to have her return to do the same!?!?
  • Girls who isolate themselves in groups to a corner, a booth, a table... perhaps these girls just don't want to be approached thus move out of the limelight. I guess just plowing through and engaging the group would be the only answer here.
  • Language barriers... lots of foreign students in this town. (Even if I'm foreign myself, haha).
  • It's literally too loud to actually converse, even pulling her to another area is just too loud (I know, switch venues, but we all have those nights where you hit the club with friends and there is just this one girl we have to meet). Changes the game up, I like the "low key" relaxed, chill, sexy guy approach personally. Probably just need to switch venue or go high energy here.

What do you do when there's no easy path to meeting that beautiful girl?

Carnival of Dating Advice, 24th Edition

carnival of dating advice

Welcome to the 24th Edition of the Carnival of Dating Advice. We're winding the carnival down; this is our second-to-last go-round bringing you the best latest articles in dating, relationships, psychology, and more from around the web.

Short carnival this time, with four articles included - ranging from the gentlemanly to the emotional to reflection on success and taking action.

Here we go...

Turn On Your Girlfriend with Raw Sexual Enthusiasm

turn your girlfriend onI just had a conversation with a friend where he mentioned having a casual girlfriend of his giving him some drama and deliberately (and clearly intentionally) trying to get under his skin at the end of a normal night for the two of them.

What's a normal night look like?

  • She comes over to his place

  • They sit down to have some dinner

  • After dinner, they get in bed and watch a movie

  • After the movie, before nodding off to sleep, they have sex

In this case, my friend's girl started being resistant to sex after the movie, then asking him if he was annoyed, trying to get a rise out of him. Eventually she ended up leaving without sex occurring (normally, not something you want happening too much).

At first, I cringed... but then I realized, hey wait a minute; that's what my routine used to look like with casual and serious girlfriends alike back in the day too.

The main problem with this? It doesn't turn on your girlfriend... in fact, it's something of a turn off.

Nowadays, I structure my evenings with girlfriends very differently; and if you want women going crazy for you (instead of playing annoying drama head games with you), I suggest you make some tweaks too.

Your Beliefs Aren't Real

I recently had dinner with a group of friends. Among this group was a young Mormon couple, the male of whom was a former missionary. He was one of those cool religious guys you meet, with a clear sense of purpose, and a fire behind his eyes that told you he knew who he was and what he stood for and what he was meant to do in this world. We had some good conversation about life, travel, and business.

After we parted ways from them, the girl I was with asked me how people can find purpose in religion. "Well," I said, "for him, from his point of view and what he believes, he knows with absolute confidence and certainty that if he spreads the Word of God and brings more people to the faith, and if he leads a good life and does what he's supposed to and avoids temptation and sin, when all's said and done and his time on this planet is past, he'll ascend to heaven and he'll be buddies with God and will be at peace for the rest of eternity."

My girl looked at me quizzically. "How can anybody believe that?" she asked, genuinely surprised.

beliefs aren't real

"Because some people told them about it, and they thought it sounded reasonable, so they believed it," I replied.

"That's not a good reason!" she said.

"Well, let me ask you something," I said. "You believe in evolution, right? That people come from monkeys, which come from rats, which come from fish... all that?"

"Yes," she said.

"Okay," I continued. "Have you studied evolution in a laboratory environment yourself and seen the evidence up close to make sure it's real?"

"No," she said.

"Well," I said, "have you ever actually seen evolution happen?"

She paused a moment, realizing where I was going with this. "No," she said.

"Then how do you know evolution actually happens?" I asked. She didn't answer. "It's because people told you it does, and it sounded reasonable to you, and you believed it... isn't it?"

Cognitive Dissonance and Upset Commenters

Somewhat less polished article than usual today... my computer's in the shop, so I'm having to put things together on a rather dated machine instead of my usual one.

A reader wrote in to give me a tongue lashing for being insecure, brainwashing men, and leading people astray - away from loving themselves, their soul mates, and God. Here's what he had to say:

cognitive dissonance

Hey Chase,

So I used to be on this site until I realized a few things. Firstly, you're a very insecure man who is brainwashing men into learning a 'skill' which they should not be learning. I believe there is a God-given person for anyone, and regardless of whether or not you think that is 'feel good nonsense' is up to you. A girl left you and because of that you felt like you needed to change. Ever think that maybe she just wasn't right for you? Ever think that you could find a girl who likes you for who you are, but you just got to be patient? Ever think that it's okay to be yourself and to want to be efficient and get things done fast only if you want to? Your website is based on complex logic-based ideological nonsense that appeals to vulnerable young and old men who have typically been through hard times with women and are looking for a solution. Sure you can learn how to make money, get the best body, etc.; we live in a progress-based society. On the other hand, when you are trying to teach people a skill, which is not yours or anyone else's right to teach, then that's crossing the line. Deep down, you know it's wrong, and despite the fact that it works (I can vouch for that), it's morally wrong. You don't need to sleep with women for them to stick around. Most of them will stick around, and you're right about that, but really think about what's the point of doing that. If a girl is meant for YOU then she will like YOU for the nerdy, efficient, intelligent, socially awkward person that you naturally are. SIMPLE. Chase, please give your head a shake, bro. I know what you're saying is true and works, I know if you get the girl to pay it works, I know chase frames work, etc. Please just take a moment and think 'Why would I want a girl who doesn't like me for who I am?' Don't fight your core self, try to change your voice, and who you are. Do it if you want, but the girl you end up with will like you for you. Marriage may not be a big deal to you, but it is a God-given way for 2 people who love each other to demonstrate that; you're just taking a completely logic-based approach, which is one that society tries to conform us into due to its progress-based nature, but if you know what's good for you, you'll take a moment and seriously rethink what you are doing, and get your insecurities sorted out, because you have some serious work to do my friend :).

All the best,
Former member

I have a pretty good idea who this individual is, because he routinely comes on here leaving similar comments. If it's the person I think, he's a guy who was very religious, then decided he was going to learn how to be good with girls, then, before he could actually get any experience with women, decided that being good with girls was morally reprehensible and that he should go back to being very religious again. I've nothing against religious people personally, but flip-flopping is just annoying.

If there's a God, He's probably pretty annoyed with it too. God and I are both annoyed.

I'd take the time to respond point-by-point here - except I've already done that, in this article from two years ago: "Just Be Yourself: The Worst Dating Advice Known to Man." If you're curious about my response to the line of reasoning espoused in the above comment, just read that article - I wrote it specifically so I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself every time somebody decides to challenge why anyone needs to bother with self-improvement, dating advice, treating yourself as your own greatest project and investment, etc.

And the morality issue - "You know it's wrong to teach men about women!" - has been previously addressed here: "Is Seduction Wrong?"

(also worth adding, for clarity's sake - I started improving myself with women when I had almost zero prior success with women and was alone and friendless, not because a girl "had left me," although this does seem to be a common origin story for men in the dating advice niche; and I score 35% on OkCupid's "How Insecure Are You, Really... Test," which you can draw your own conclusions about)

Anyway, what I'm actually primarily interested in discussing here is the emotional reaction - why do people get upset and feel like they need to go on a crusade to silence you when they know you don't think as they do?

Why is it about other people's ideas that make them so... frightening? I mean, they're just ideas... right?

Make Her Orgasm Hard from Sex in 8 Minutes or Less

I've had men ask me to write about my methods on how to make a girl orgasm since 2007, when I first mentioned the results I get with sex online... and I've always declined to write them.

I didn't mind sharing what I did to pick up a girl. That's just a process.

But sex... that's an experience. And I've somewhat jealously guarded how to create the kind of experience I like creating for women through sex.

make a girl orgasm

My goals with sex were the same as my goals with seduction: sex to me should be

  1. Powerfully effective,
  2. Efficient to execute, and
  3. Easy to do

Once I started working on getting sex down as a skill, I was able to give girls relatively hard orgasms within 10 or 15 minutes, on average. I gradually cut this down to about 5 to 10 minutes or so.

And right away, I was stacking powerful multiple orgasms from penetrative vaginal sex, one after another - the holy grail of sex performance for most men.

All those other guys out there were talking about giving girls orgasms with their hands or mouths... I laughed at that. I was giving them orgasms with ME.

And I didn't want to talk about it... because sex is the great differentiator. If everybody else knows how to do what I know how to do in the sack, well, all those rip-roaring orgasms I just gave her aren't really anything all that special... she can go get that from anybody.

But what I've realized over the years is, no matter how clear you make something for someone, no matter how simply you present it to him... if it requires even a little bit of work, most men are unlikely to ever use it.

If you use these techniques with the women you sleep with, it will change sex, women, and relationships for you forever.

But most men are never going to bother.

So, fears of getting out-competed by men using my own techniques against me set aside, I'm going to share with you how you can make girls orgasm hard, fast, and multiple times, using nothing but your member - and a little bit of work.

How to Treat a Woman: Like a Queen, or Like a Whore?

how to treat a womanOne common stumbling block for men who are rusty or inexperienced is deciding how to treat a woman. Should you treat her unfailingly well... or should you treat her in some other way?

In fact - particularly if you're new, or around women you consider "out of your league" - you may find yourself walking on eggshells around women you like, afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing and causing such a girl to lose her temper with you and storm off in disgust.

So how do you treat her?

You may have heard this pithy remark before:

You treat a queen like a whore and a whore like a queen.

And today we're going to examine how that applies to the women you meet in day-to-day life.

I see some fellas out there nodding in agreement with this statement; "Aye, that's the way to do it!" they're saying to themselves.

I also see some guys out there shrinking back in terror; "You can't possibly expect me to treat a queen like a whore and a whore like a queen, can you?" they ask, all the color running out of their faces. "They'll hate me! I want them to love me!"

As it were, there's a lot of knowledge packed into this brief phrase - but to a point.

In this article, we're going to break this mentality down, dig into the queen/whore dichotomy, and see exactly why treating one like the other can provide you a boost most men won't ever experience.

Frame Control Examples: Out-Frame Anyone

frame controlIn "How to Talk About Yourself on Dates," a commenter named Al asked about an article on frame control - examples and advanced/detailed technique:

One future article I would love to see is a more advanced and detailed article on frame control. I have read a forum thread by you on advanced frame control which was beneficial and your frame control article on here but I feel I need more real life examples of adroit frame control to be able to master it myself.

To put it in to context this last month I have just been focused on reading conversation articles on here as this has been my little "month of conversation" (convenient you slip this article in before the end of the month!) and I found the most valuable article of yours was the annotated example of a conversation you would have. Personally, i find learning by imitating helps initially for all game-related things before i stamp my own persona on how these are used so such an article would be fantastic.

Thanks again,

Frame control's a neat topic, and an important one - persuasion and communication is a central point of human existence, and if you want to stay in control and have things go your way, you've got to be good at it - not just at winning debates, but at getting people to see things your way.

That's what frame control really is - it's painting the picture in a way that not only speaks to you, but to everyone who's looking at it... your "opponent" included.

Here, we'll be taking a deeper look at frame control than we have before, and it's a look chock full of examples to get you thinking about things in the most intuitive way possible.