Things That Show Women You’re Chasing Them (That’s Bad!)


signs you're chasingIn July's article on granting social status, I mentioned a delicate social situation as an example of a scenario where you'd unfortunately have to deal with an interruption by throwing someone under the bus. A reader asked a clarifying question, wondering if it wasn't possible to deal with that interruption more gracefully toward the interloper:

In the example from the networking event, wouldn't a socially savvy person tell the nerdy guy something like "We were in the middle of a conversation here, is it OK if I get back to you later?" as if to give the guy an out?

Would you in retrospect deal with the incident more like this, or if not, why? While the guy was rude to intrude the way he did, isn't it better to not be rude back?

My response was that, while normally you DO want to respond gracefully here, due to the specifics of this case, because of what's communicated to this new woman you've just met by you explicitly telling someone else you prioritize your just-commenced conversation with her over the one he has just commenced with you (as you would in the graceful way of letting this other individual down), you must take the haughtier tack here, unfortunately, and throw our socially awkward friend to the wolves for stepping between you and this girl and butting into your conversation.

And just what is that bad thing communicated by you telling him explicitly that you're prioritizing your conversation with her over your conversation with him that forces your hand here? Why has he left you with no choice but to dismantle him socially, rather than let him down nicely?

What's communicated to the girl in the explicit case, where she hears you tell him, "I'm in the middle of a conversation with her, please excuse me," is that you're chasing her... that's what.

Why that's communicated, and the other signs you can give off that indicate you're chasing women, is what we'll talk about here.


signs you're chasing

This article won't be on why chasing women is a bad thing, if you have any interest in ever having a woman as a lover, partner, or girlfriend. If you haven't read them yet, or that question is unresolved or unanswered in your mind, see the piece on chasing women liked to above, or read this article: "Keeping Your Cool: Don't Chase Women."

Instead, what I want to talk about here are all the subtle signs you're chasing, that you may well not even be aware of.

Once you're attuned to these, not only will you be able to control them in yourself, but you'll begin picking them up in women... and that is tons of fun.

These days, my interactions largely consist of sitting around with a woman, neither of us chasing the other, but me intriguing her more and more, until she shifts, and I start seeing these signs from her.

At that moment, I smile; I've got her. She's in pursuit.

Now we can really have fun together.

If you're not familiar with the signs of someone chasing you, though... and you don't recognize chasing behavior at a subtle level in yourself, either... not only will these signs fly over your head when a girl's display them, but you won't be able to stop yourself from giving off chasing signals yourself either, because you won't be able to recognize them and head them off at the pass.

As it were though, you don't need to memorize a colossal list of different signs if you don't want to; simply knowing the dynamics of how much interest you can show at what stage in an interaction without it being chasing is enough.

Let's talk about those dynamics.


Interest Prior to the Hook Point

The single most delicate time with regards to chasing behavior is prior to reaching the hook point. That's the moment in a conversation where a woman decides that yes, she really enjoys talking to you, and she's going to work to try to keep the conversation going (by asking questions, filling in pregnant pauses, shutting down interruptions herself, shooing away friends of hers who try to cockblock, etc.).

Here's why the hook point matters so much for determining how aggressively (or not) you can hold onto and move ahead with a woman you've just met:

  • If you've passed the hook point and need to express interest in continuing to talk with her or commit to an interaction with her, this feels normal and expected to her because it's what she wants too

  • If on the other hand you haven't passed her hook point yet, and nevertheless express interest in continuing to talk with her or commit to an interaction with her or otherwise go out of your way to stay engaged with her despite pushes to the contrary, she knows you're more interested in her than she is in you - and you're chasing

You're doing something (trying to keep your interaction with her alive; working to commit to your interaction with her; putting up with shenanigans from her you don't know how to deal with deftly) to keep things going with her that she would not do herself to keep things going with you at that early stage of the interaction... and because of this, the communication is that you are in pursuit.

Which leads us to our boiled down definition of "chasing", and how you can recognize who's doing the chasing between you and a woman.


Something the Other Party Wouldn't Do Yet

Whichever party is willing to go to greater lengths to preserve, maintain, and progress an interaction, that's the party that is chasing.

signs you're chasing

It's as simple as that.

If that's her - if she's going to swat away interrupters, or put in work to save your conversation from dying - while you lean back and let things either continue or not, no big deal either way to you, she's the pursuer.

If, conversely, that's you - if you're the one who's going to swat away interrupters, or put in work to save your conversation with her from dying - while she leans back and lets things either continue or not, no big deal either way to her, you're the pursuer.

Examples:

On opening:

  • You open her; she doesn't immediately hook. You let things die out calmly and naturally, and after the conversation winds down you go back to relaxing, staring out at your environment, and not doing too much. She then reengages you, not wanting the conversation to die. She's chasing.

  • You open her; she doesn't immediately hook. You plow ahead, trying to keep her talking, confident that if you can just reach the right topic of conversation, she'll hook, and then things will get easier. You're chasing.

Pre-hook point:

  • You've just met, and are only in the very beginning of an interaction. Suddenly, something loud, distracting, and chaotic occurs. Before the hubbub has died down, she tries to reengage you, even though you're more concerned with the hubbub. She's chasing.

  • You've just met, and are only in the very beginning of an interaction. Suddenly, something loud, distracting, and chaotic occurs. Before the hubbub has died down, you try to reengage her, even though she's more concerned with the hubbub. You're chasing.

  • You've just met, and are only in the very beginning of an interaction. Without much prompting, she launches into a longwinded qualifying story about something impressive she's done - that time she modeled, her stint as a backup dancer for some famous singer, her PhD dissertation that astonished everybody. Because she's clearly trying to impress here, and you haven't really asked her about this or reached a stage in the interaction where this is warranted, she's chasing.

  • You've just met, and are only in the very beginning of an interaction. Without much prompting, you launch into a longwinded qualifying story about something impressive you've done - that killer snowboarding run you made, how you beat out 200 other people for a choice internship in university, how when you started your own business everybody told you you were a fool and it wouldn't work but you did it anyway and won. Because you're clearly trying to impress here, and she hasn't really asked you about this and you haven't reached a stage in the interaction where this is warranted, you're chasing.

Post-hook point:

  • You're enjoying your conversation with her, and haven't really decided yet where you see this going or what you want to have happen. She unexpectedly blurts out, "We should totally get together again later!" Because you weren't even thinking this yet and it doesn't feel natural to you, she's chasing.

  • She's enjoying her conversation with you, and hasn't really made up her mind about you yet or start signaling to you she wants to go home just yet or is sufficiently sold on you for this yet. Out of the blue, you decide to invite her home, and ask her if she wants to get out of there. Because she wasn't at this point yet, and you're clearly ready to move things forward before she is, you're chasing.

Back at someone's place:

  • The two of you are alone together, and nothing's happened yet. At some point, you declare (honestly, and without trying to prompt a reaction), "Well, I guess I ought to get going," and she says, "No; stay." Because you were ready to leave but she does not want you to, she's chasing.

  • The two of you are alone together, and nothing's happened yet. At some point, she declares (honestly, and without trying to prompt a reaction), "Well, I guess I ought to get going," and you say, "No; stay." Because she was ready to leave but you do not want her to, you're chasing.

These are just a handful of examples; there are legions and legions more of these. I give you these to give you a feel for what this is.

Per usual, this is a spectrum, rather than a black-and-white, on-or-off phenomenon. If she was just about to jump your bones, and you suddenly grabbed her and manhandle kissed her, you're not really chasing her here because it was what she wanted too.

Or if she was on the fence about it and you manhandled her, there's a good chance she says to herself, "Well, why not - it's fun," and goes right along with it. In that case, you're chasing, but it's not entirely unwanted, and the effect of the chasing is not too much.

Alternatively, if she has zero interest in you sexually / romantically, and you grab her and plant a manhandle kiss on her, her reaction will simply be, "Eww, gross! He clearly doesn't get that I'm not interested - time for me to go."


signs you're chasing

If you were paying close attention to those examples above, you might have noticed that all of the actions considered "chasing" at one point would not be considered chasing at a later point where both parties felt mutually:

  • Reengaging when both parties are hooked is a no-brainer; that's not chasing for either of you. It's mutual.

  • Telling each other long qualifying stories is part of the connecting and bonding process, and occurs later into many deeper conversations - particularly if you're sharing a story like this after being prompted to by a girl, it certainly isn't chasing.

  • Trading phone numbers, proposing a date, or inviting someone home isn't chasing, so long as the other party is clearly open to and desirous of this already.

  • Telling someone to stay when that's what he or she really wanted isn't chasing - it's recognizing his or her desire and escalating things to the point that he or she wanted them to be at.

  • A manhandle kiss where this is desired and appreciated is not chasing - it's exciting.

"Chasing", then, is not so much about the action itself, as it is about the timing of that action: are you pacing your "chasing" to occur when it IS chasing (too soon or too late), or when it ISN'T (just right)?


Time to Make a Move

So how do you pace things properly?

How do you know if it's too soon to do something, or gauge where the escalation windows are at with a girl?

How do you avoid both chasing early (doing too much too soon, before the feeling is mutual) and having attraction expire and/or sending a girl into auto-rejection from you not moving things forward soon enough?

That all comes down to being able to read a woman's levels of interest in you (see "How Girls Show Interest" for a primer on these), and respond at the appropriate moment.

The main things to be aware of?

  1. Whether she's signaled she wants to be approached. You're looking either for an approach invitation or indications that a girl is looking for men that day or night. If you have one of these on opening, you can be a lot warmer and treat a girl like a close friend from the outset. If not, you generally want to err on the side of behaving a bit more aloof and a bit more skeptical.

  2. How warm she is on the open. Similar to the previous point; women who are very warm to you on opening (warm smile; asking you questions right away; turning the majority of their bodies to you immediately; ignoring others and creating a "bubble" with you) you can start taking more initiative with much sooner and not have to worry about it coming off as chasing.

  3. When she's hooked. When your fundamentals are solid and you're doing a good job of targeting women who look like they'll be receptive, you'll frequently find yourself having women hooked immediately upon the opening, or very soon thereafter. When your fundamentals still need work and you don't have those instincts developed yet for which women are going to be most receptive (and these instincts come primarily from lots of experience meeting new women and learning through repetition and trial and error), the hook point takes longer to reach, and women stay skeptical or uncertain about you longer. Regardless, you must be aware of when you've reached it - and when you haven't yet. The things you can do and what you can get away with vary tremendously between women who are hooked and women who aren't yet - you must be aware of this one.

  4. How sexually interested in you she is. Sexual tension makes most of your problems with women melt away. That's because the more sexually interested in you a woman becomes, the more receptive to your advances she becomes, and the more willing she'll be to do things to keep the interaction rolling and moving forward - and the more accepting she'll be of your attempts to do so, too (and more likely to view them as "what I would have done" rather than "oh, he's chasing me").

If you're aware of those four elements and where you stand on each of them, you'll have little to worry about when it comes to whether your actions will be perceived as chasing or not - with the one exception of where it feels like what's needed is something that she's going to view as an indication that you're in pursuit.


Do You Sometimes HAVE to Chase?

signs you're chasingHere's an interesting question: do you ever sometimes just HAVE to chase?

The answer is this: not if you completely know what you're doing.

If you completely know what you're doing (that is, you're reasonably advanced with women, and you've achieved absolute abundance and outcome independence), you will never encounter a situation in which you either a.) have non-chasing social maneuvers at your disposal, or b.) could've avoided altogether by doing things correctly.

(as an experienced seducer, you may occasionally run into situations where the hard push is the only choice available for moving ahead or saving an interaction, but if done right that one comes across as calm, measured persistence, rather than outright pursuit)

In other words, if you're good, you're always going to have options to achieve your desired outcome, or be able to avoid situations before they occur.

Here are a few extreme examples and how a socially very experienced man will handle them:

  • Guy meets girl on train; girl gets off next stop. How does guy move things forward with her without chasing? Socially experienced man: first thing he does after introducing himself to a girl on the train and exchanging a few pleasantries with her is asking her, "Where are you heading today?" He then finds out her stop. If it's soon, and the vibe with her is good, he gets her phone number very quick in a socially adroit way, and bids her farewell. If it's soon and she's not very certain about him yet, he makes a snap decision: do I like this girl enough to go 10 minutes out of my way, or do I throw her back into the pond and keep fishing? If it's the former, he tells her he's doing something at her stop and gets off with her, continuing to talk as they exit the subway station. He plans to part ways with her as soon as they do exit, so moves to create a quick connection and attraction fast, and then grabs a phone number. Once she's out of sight, he turns around and re-boards the train.

  • Guy meets girl in very high energy, loud party, where everyone has super-short attention spans. How does guy move things forward with her without chasing? Socially experienced man: he's looking for strong interest on opening here, and relying on his fundamentals to carry the day for him - they're important everywhere, but crucial when attention spans are limited and distractions reach cacophonic levels. If he gets strong initial interest: he quickly moves her somewhere with somewhat fewer distractions where they can dial down the mood and connect a bit and see if they can move things forward more. If he does not get strong initial interest: he throws her back out into the pond and keeps fishing, figuring either he'll meet someone else, or maybe he'll run into this girl again later and she'll be more interested (when you calmly part ways with a girl after meeting her the first time, 80% of the time she's noticeably more interested when you meet her again later - assuming no one else has scooped her up and hit it off with her in the meantime).

Note the trend: in extreme high variability environments, he's looking for strong interest and, in some cases, gauging how much time he has to connect before the environment interrupts. If there's strong initial interest, he moves things forward immediately, because this is made environmentally necessary and because he knows the girl understands this and will agree with his actions (i.e., not consider them chasing).

If on the other hand there is not strong initial interest, he looks for a way to give himself more time without appearing to chase (he happens to be getting off at the same stop; he leaves, then runs into her again later) or he elects to simply move on and looking for better prospects elsewhere.

Why doesn't he chase? Because chasing - especially in rapidly decaying, low interest on the girl's part situations - has very low probabilities of working, and very high probabilities of wasting his time and emotional energy; time and emotional energy that could much better be spent on meeting new, more interested women (or on other noble pursuits).


When Chasing is Worth Doing

How do you develop this social instinct for when it's chasing and when it isn't? How do you learn how to discern intuitively whether what you're about to do is going to come across as pursuing a girl and turn her off or shift the balance of power into her corner, and against you?

The only way to do this is by taking things too far and venturing into the realm of chasing. And if you're a beginner or an intermediate, you should be chasing... at least some of the time.

Probably much of the time, actually, if you're a beginner.

Like we talked about in the article on sprezzatura, you need to spend a little while at Jester before you become the King.

It's the only way you learn where the boundaries are, and how you get a feel for what simply doesn't net you girls in your bed at the end of the day. Bear in mind as you chase that reactions don't equal results; some women enjoy chasing and encourage it because it makes them feel validated, but that doesn't mean they want to go a round in the sack with their pursuers. They just enjoy the attention.

If you're a beginner, you don't get to say, "Well, it would've been chasing, so I decided not to do it." A beginner can say, "I knew it was chasing, so I tried doing X instead to see if THAT would work," or a beginner can say, "I knew it was chasing, but I couldn't think of what else to do so I tried doing it anyway"; either of those are fine. So long as you're getting more experience trying different things, you're golden. If you're denying yourself experiences because you don't think it will work though... and you're a beginner... well, let's just say you're not in a position to accurately assess what's likely to work and what isn't at this point in your evolution quite yet.

Learning dating and girl skills is not an entrance exam. You don't get points for being "right", at least not when first starting out. What you're really after is more and varied kinds of experiences:

  • "What happens when I try X with girls?"
  • "What's the outcome when I do ABC?"
  • "When I think I shouldn't Z, but I do anyway, does it really hurt me or doesn't it?"

When you're new, you want to be testing your preconceived notions about what works and what doesn't, and re-training your brain to look at things differently... until it's looking at things the way an experienced seducer's brain would, because it is an experienced seducer's brain.

The main thing you're looking to acquire? A better read of how into you women are or not. The inexperienced brain thinks it knows, but it tends to mistake things like flirting for interest... and the two are not the same.

You must try things with women, see what they respond to and how long the interaction proceeds before it dies (or if it ever dies), and gradually learn how to gauge exactly where you're at with women reliably enough that you can match your actions to where they're at emotionally.

That's how you get to the point where you can lean back and smile to yourself when women start chasing you... because you are now better at reading them than they are at reading you.


Would She Do It or Not?

The takeaway from this article is the question to ask yourself about any action you're about to make:

Would this girl I'm with do this thing herself to keep things going / moving forward, or not?

When the answer is "yes", you can safely do it - whatever it is - without having to worry about her interpreting it as pursuit (and instead, many times, being delighted with your actions and increasingly excited about where things are leading).

When the answer is "no", you want to find another way of dealing with the situation or buying yourself a bit more time to up her attraction and help her reach a place emotionally where she'll accept you doing what you need to do without it being interpreted as you pursuing her.

Once you can properly gauge this and answer this question with women, you'll never have to worry about chasing a woman again, because - unless you lose all control of your mental and emotional faculties and just panic over some girl, which really only happens when you have some degree of scarcity, either in pickup or in a relationship - you'll know what actions you can take and when to advance things forward without throwing red "he's chasing me" flags up for her.

And, you're able to lean back and let her do the chasing instead, as you create an atmosphere of intrigue, excitement, and scarcity, and do just a little bit less than she feels needs to be done to move things forward - prompting her to take matters into her own hands.

That's when things really get fun.

Best,
Chase Amante

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Comments

Knight's picture

Progress


Chase, hey! Since we last talked I've outlined goals for myself long-term, approached and gained new reference points while losing weight healthily and started my applications for university. I came to the decision by myself but had a lot of suggestions by you and others that I respect influence my decision. I still want to sell though and have incorporated my education around it. I've also reached some financial goals and coolest of all have been receiving interests and approaches from women I've hardly known where they were obviously chasing me (well to the Girls Chase reader at least) . Today I had to refer to your post on 'how to let girls down' as it's a skill I need right now. Also working to store some cash towards your book which shouldn't take too long. Take care man, I hope you have been seeing rewards in your interests lately too!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Progress

Author

Wonderful to hear, Knight. Sounds like you're working hard and reaping the results, and winning a lot in a number of different areas of your life. Keep it up!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Are you single?


Chase would you say that asking the question 'are you single' to a girl, perhaps as an opener is chasing?

I know it's something that you or ricardus recommended and too be honest it has been getting me solid results and interest early on. I think you said the theory behind it was to display your intentions early, and I guess this is what it does as well as breaking her out of autopilot? I mean it's not an opener most guys use.

But can you explain the dynamics behind that opener and whether it's chasing or not etc etc.

Obviously that was one opener that you recommended but do you have any others that you use a lot of the time? For me I always look for something situational perhaps, humerous to try and develop a feeling of comfort early on and then drop the at you single question early on to display intentions.

How do you run your openers?

340Breeze's picture

Good Question!


This is a good question because you have two choices: either wait for her to open (not the best choice) or you open first. Give a little to get a lot. So the question is "how 'little' should I give to get alot." Which directly translates into what openers to deliver (direct or indirect) depending on the situation.

I'd like to see what Mr. Chase thinks too. But for me, it'd depend on the girl and on my mood. "Are you single" can be very potent, powerful, and bold...almost like you already made up your mind that you like this woman when you know nothing about her besides that she's beautiful.

If she's clearly interested in you and happy that you came up to talk to her (you can always tell by her body language) then I think asking if she's single I think is doable, but more of a formality and not necessary. I don't think it'd really be chasing too much because she's already happy that you came up to talk to her. But personally, I think if you encounter a woman that's already warm to you like that, all you really have to do is say hi and smile. Say anything really because what you do after you open is what counts anyway. (Be sexy! and cool!) Just let things progress without ever asking the question. Because why is she so warm if she wasn't single? And if she isn't single then dude isn't doing his JOB! So let's be sexy and see what happens!!! There's even been some cases when they ask me first if I'm single (like they said to themselves: "hmm I like what this guy is doing... but I wonder if he's just playing with me... and has a woman somewhere hiding!") Which from reading this article means they're chasing! But at the end of the day, reactions don't equal results... so even if she's warm now, doesn't mean she'll respond the way I want her to when I'm sexy... so let's see what happens!

On the other hand, if the girl seems more skeptical/aloof like she's superior in value to me, I can't really know what will happen if I ask if she's single. Only if I'm in the mood for some fun or don't care about the impact to my emotions from potential rejection, I might ask her if she's single just for kicks and laughs, like "I have the balls to ask you this question missy, let's see what you do!" And such women usually say in response to me asking them "are you single" that "no they're not." At which point, I just expend less effort and let the conversation die down, unless she seemed like she could provide some immediate platonic value at which point I just change the topic to what I'm curious about, and treat her like a friend. But who knows, I'm no expert on this at all.

And, only once have I asked an aloof looking woman if she's single, to which responded 'no' as usual, and I disengaged as usual. But then she reengaged me on her own asking me tons of questions. I said to myself, if she's single, why is she reengaging me like this? Hmmm. So, I just ran the process with her, slowly at first, then picking up steam and it felt weird when she positively responded. I was not expecting it at all. Only later did she tell me that she said she was single because alot of dudes were "gaming" her that day, but she could tell I was different.

Weird.

Anyways, good question!

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Are you single?

Author

Anon-

Like Breeze notes, much of how your opener comes across is in your approach itself, and your nonverbals and voice tone while delivering it. With submissive nonverbals and a nervous voice tone, any opener will sound needy and chasing; with confident, solid, commanding nonverbals and voice, no matter what you say it's usually going to come across as interested, but not necessarily pursuing... sort of a, "Hey, answer me this, so I can decide if I want to get to know you further or not," type communication.

As far as how I run my own openers, normally as described in the article on indirect game; that is, explicitly indirect, implicitly direct. I'll often simply use direct openers too - these have very strong opening effects and aren't pursuit if you're solid in your delivery and not investing noticeably more effort or energy into the interaction than she is during or after the opener.

Chase

J.J. Jones's picture

Good stuff


I stopped doing many of those things unconsciously. It no longer effects me at all if a girl says she has to go, starts paying me less attention, etcetera. I just drop her and it's on to the next one. Often times (especially younger girls) will actually freak out a little when I back off, and start scrambling to get my attention again, which just ends up making it ten times easier for me... :)

Once again, another great article!

NJ

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Good stuff

Author

Good note on the younger girls, NJ - you are very much "calling them on their bluffs" when you do this with them. Watching those 180 flips in (turned on and excited) shock and surprise is always a fun deal ;)

Chase

Sam2's picture

Flirting VS Interest


Here is a short example of how unclear these two can get.

Highlights of a recent interaction with a girl:

- She comments on how "erotic" is the way I look at her
- I lock in (take her place smoothly and let her be on the outside) and I let the conversation die on purpose. Each time, she picked up the conversation herself by asking me things
- I said to her "Your complexion SEEMS smooth". Her reply: "My skin IS smooth". I give her the look of disbilief, while extending slowly my hand towards her naked belly. Two cms away from her belly, I look at her and say "May I?". She says: "Touch me". I caress her belly and she caresses my hand
- I propose a drink. She gives a clearcut "Yes". I ask "when are you free". She replies "Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays". I take her number which she writes down willingly. (all this within 15 minutes)

Result: I texted her once in the usual laconic manner. No reply. I called her after 1 day of radio silence. No reply. I deleted the number.

Was the above interaction just about reactions?

P.S. I initially opened her friend. Within 2 minutes I realise she is not into anything erotic and she introduces me to that girl. I took it as hint to go for her instead. Could that be the reason of her flaking? Did she feel a "second option"?

340Breeze's picture

I feel your pain


I feel your pain man. Maybe she was just flirting and looking for emotional validation. Or maybe she wanted you to move faster. Or maybe another man met her after you let her go without taking her home that night and now it's radio silence for you.

The best thing to do, I'd say, if you ever encounter a situation like that again where it's definitely getting heated, is to simply keep pushing it fwd and try to take her home that same night. Period. Move fast while you already have her in your presence (because there is no effort required for her to be in your presence). If the mood is (seemingly) escalating, simply keep pushing, keep escalating. Then eventually invite her out of there and persist a few times if she says no.

You force her to make a decision, it's either put up or shut up. This way you move fast and avoid faster moving men or fading emotions, and you also force her to act. Actions are more reliable than words or "flirtatious reactions."

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Chase Amante's picture

Unmet Expectations

Author

Sam-

Sounds like a cut and dry case of a certain type of expectation being built (that you'd be the lover) but not kept (you then looked to set up a date with her... rather than take advantage of all the sexual tension you'd just built and escalate things to their natural conclusion then and there, as she likely hoped you might).

The way around this in the future is avoiding building up too much sexual tension when you're around women and don't intend to pull them home and help them release that tension that day or night, and, if you DO build that tension up, don't leave them hanging and feeling disappointed... take them home and rock their worlds.

Chase

TORNADO's picture

Signs


Hey Chase, Like I told you I had this chick who I was crazy after, proposed her, got rejected and all. But I am still friends with her. Its just that I want to end things on a good note. I should be able to move from my current company by early next year which should help me meet more women and forget about her.

So everything is crystal clear now, she absolutely knows I love her and I have also let go. Since I have nothing to lose now, I heavily flirt with her a lot, sometimes open but she doesn't take it in a bad way. Anyways, in order to never again repeat the same mistakes again, I was like why not ask the girl herself where I went wrong.

She gave me a couple of pointers firstly saying that Self respect is something of utmost importance and never to lose it and also mentioned that I was clingy and hyper and said something about me asking her Personal Questions which prevents her from being free with me.

I have to be honest that I am not totally over her. But having said that, I am sure I will be once I change my location which like I said should be by early next year.

I just have some queries:

1) Is it a good idea to enhance your experience by asking the girl herself for pointers?

2) What did she mean by Personal Questions? Isn't DEEP DIVING all about getting personal with a girl and making her feel comfortable?

3) Early on during our friendship when I used to ask her why she doesn't reply or talk properly sometimes with me she claims that "She's abnormal and she's like that with everyone". Is it common for gals to use self blame to ward off chasers?

4) This is kind of out of scope and has even my EXPERT friends confused. She has her own group with whom she has lunch. Her friends especially the girls, stare at me in a weird way and sometimes for quite an uncomfortably long time. Its neither an angry look nor an interested look. What does it mean when they stare long at me? I feel odd. Any ideas?

5) Some chics have this very bad habit of saying things like "Wanted to tell you something". Then when I ask What, they are like "Nothing" which drives me nuts. Why do they usually do such a thing?

Thanks a ton for you patience Chase. Looking fw for more great articles from you.

Flames's picture

While you wait for Chase


Hey there. I just thought I'd give you my take on you points being as those a few things I've worked through myself.

1) Never ask a women advice on women. I don't know what it is wether it's that they themselves don't know what it is they want, or it's some primal competitive instinct but despite women supposedly being the more 'intuitive' of the two sexes ask them a question about 'your relationship' and they'll get it wrong 9/10 times. You can ask what you did wrong with them but that won't help you with any other girl but her.

2) The idea with deep diving is to share things on a similar level. I read something recently (somewhere?on here?) which was spot on about a simple conversation in a supermarket. It said something like "Hey I'm having difficulty here picking the best fruit" which is essentially an invite, against "Hey, would you mind helping me pick the best fruit here?" which is a) a direct question and b) asking for a level of interest. What your doing is asking for a level of intimacy rather than encouraging a level of intimacy. It's difficult to explain and I'm sure Chase can explain it better :)

3) Again your asking for a level of intimacy here. It's rarely a good idea to address things such as her staring, or going quiet etc directly and id consider it bad social awareness too TBH.

4) They probably sizing you up, I get this a fair bit when a girl knows there's something 'special' about me but can't work it out. Just let them do it, don't worry about it. It's not going to hurt you in any way.

5) When they do that they are probably going ask something uncomfortable for them, so make them comfortable first and foremost, share something about yourself, make a joke, whatever It takes, then when they're comfortable enough address the question.

Sounds like you've just got a bit of fine tuning on your calibration, but nothing major.

Let's see what Chase thinks :)

Regards
Flames

Chase Amante's picture

Questions

Author

Not much to add here to what Flames said, except that I get the distinct impression that the personal questions being asked here are coming with judgment or expectations attached - e.g., not a calm, "Why do you do that? That's funny!" non-judgmental way of asking, with a sly smile and a wink, but more a, "Why do you have to DO that?! I don't like it when you do that!" where there's an expectation attached (the question is not being asked purely out of curiosity, but rather as a passive-aggressive way to try to push her to change her behavior), or, "Why do you do that? That's not good!"

Personal questions only work so long as they are judgment- and expectation-free; as soon as a woman starts feeling like she's under a microscope, these questions go from "freeing" to "constraining", and she'll want you to know less about her, not more.

On the whole, "I have something to tell you... oh, never mind, forget I said anything," nonsense, respond by saying first, "What? What, tell me! Don't annoy me by saying you're going to tell me and then not telling me!" and then if she still won't say anything, either, "Hey Karlie, I have something to... oh, never mind!" and walk away (making fun of her), or, "Well, I guess it's probably really unimportant," and then walk away (she will feel a distinct need to prove how important it is to you by telling you).

Chase

ece80316's picture

help.


I've began paying escorts and it defeats the purpose of learning game in the first place.

Chase Amante's picture

Paying for Sex

Author

True, it does, but from what I've seen (especially over the past 6 or so months, from conversations with various men who are knee-deep in the mongering lifestyle) it appears to have some particularly negative long-term effects on both your view of women, and your ability to have substantial relationships with women from outside the mongering world (i.e., non-working girls).

My full thoughts on this here: "Re: PAYING women to go on dates (not just dinner)."

Unless you're already very experienced with women and already have pretty set, healthy views of them and the ability to get them whenever you want, I'd advise staying far away from paying for sex.

Chase

Mitch's picture

Vibe and acceptance


Hello,

I have 2 questions:
1) Is vibe like an aura that I carry with myself? Because in one article it was described like if I get laid every weekend, people start to feel it around me. What it is really and how can I change my vibes in between certain situations? I read some article from Ricardus and he wrote that you cant really do much about your vibe.

2) How can I change people view me? The longer my friends know me, they usually think I am "different". They dont really want to hang out with me. But I want them to be like "Heyyy! It's you! You are there! Hey come to us" kind of guy.

I read articles about "what do you bring to the table" and the one with social calibration and pushing past the comfort zone. But I did not really find the answer there. I am kinda quiet guy, I am kind and caring, I listen to people. I like 1v1 conversations. I am not really fun, I have dry sense of humour and that is the reason I understand why they think I am boring. But guys that I play sports with, they usually welcome me, because I am their teammate. Others really dont, they think I am weird.

My social skills are bad but not in a way that I am disturbing, being a burden, I am just not fun. I can offer people advice on stuff, my unique perspective and they usually value and "appreciate" that (which is horrible word to me - when someone "appreciates you"). I analyze every interaction I have with people to work on that, what to say in different situation and stuff like that.

Therefore, I dont like crowded rooms, proms, festivals because I dont really know how to be fun. I dont feel like one of them. It seems like they view me as not good enough of a companion. Yea, some may not like me, but it just feels like there would be no difference if I was there or not. That I am just here so the group is bigger.

They are not cold towards me, friends are kinda warm but at the end I am always like it makes no difference if I am there or not. I dont feel accepted by anyone really. And I understand why.

Or should I just have always smile on my face even though I feel depressed? Fake it till you make it?

Thanks

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Vibe and acceptance

Author

Mitch-

Right, vibe is almost like an aura, although it's nothing mystical - it's just the overall "feel" that others' subconsciouses form about you based off of reading a variety of subtle, nuanced signals you're displaying that they'd never be able to point out to you consciously - things like if you're smiling, are your eyes crinkling in the corners or not; are your movements fluid or stiff; is your back erect, or is it ever so slightly slumped? What's the tone and inflection of your voice? Do hold eye contact a fraction of a second too long or too short? All these little microcalibrations come together to form your overall vibe - the feel that people have around you.

I think what you're looking for socially is this article - one of the first on this site, back in 2008: "Bring the Energy: Being the Life of the Party." If you want people excited that you're joining the group, you have to be someone who contributes energy, life, vitality, and value to mix. Being able to connect is good - but it's really only valuable one-on-one. In groups, you need a different kind of value, and you must add to the collective spirit in some way (or else, you don't count for much in that context).

On depression - "faking it 'til you make it" is actually pretty good advice here... it can get you pretending to have fun, which can lead to you actually having fun. There's a degree of retraining the brain involved with this - see this article: "How to Overcome Depression", and try to think of it as nothing more than it is - bad, obsessive thought cycles that need to be broken.

Once they are, it becomes a lot easier (and a lot more natural) to be the guy who's bringing the energy.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Obsessive compulsive disorder


Hi chase,

I remember reading an article of yours a while back,and if Im correct you mentioned struggling with ocd,and that you had to fight extremely hard to overcome the disorder.I have a tough case of ocd.Most of the time i feel,completely overwhelmed by ocd obsessions and the anxiety that follows.But I remember in that article,you wrote something to the effect of,this disorder caused me tons of distress but in the end it turned out to be a positive thing because it forced me to lock on to a skill and persist obsessively until I achieved my goals,whereas others without ocd would have given up long before mastering there desired skill sets.My question is,how did you transition mentally from being overwhelmed by negative obsessive /compulsive thinking to focusing your obsessive thinking on mastering a skillset and other positive goals?

Chase Amante's picture

OCD

Author

Anon-

Many of the more ridiculous symptoms of this I realized were ridiculous and actively forced myself to do the opposite. e.g., in high school, I realized that I would always set my plate, napkin, silverware, and glass in exactly the same positions at mealtime, and get annoyed if someone moved them. Or, if I wanted to take a shower and there were hairs on the floor, this freaked me out, and I spent a LOT of time picking up little hairs off the floor with pieces of toilet paper before each shower. Eventually to overcome things like this, I forced myself to grin and bear it: to deliberately mess up my dining configuration; to walk across those hairs on the floor and let them just stick to my feet; I forced myself to eat food with dirty hands without washing them, just to break the need to wash so much. I'd force myself to step on cracks on the sidewalk when I noticed I was avoiding these. Things like that.

Today, most of the bad symptoms are gone, and I do all kinds of stuff without even thinking about it that I'd have freaked out over a decade or more ago. Traveling and staying in dirty low-end hotels helped (though I still prefer nicer high-end ones), as did adopting friends who were thrill-seekers... who tend not to be quite so concerned with little things like organization and pristine hygiene (not that they're totally messy or dirty, but... much less so than someone with a touch of OCD will tend to be).

As for the mental transition from negative and obsessive thought cycles to productive ones on future-looking projects, I discuss the entire transition in this piece: "How to Overcome Depression."

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Give a girl time after a break up?


Hey Chase,

This girl who I like and she likes me back too has just broke up with her boyfriend after being together for around 3 years, should I give her time before dating her or should I just get right too it?

She also seems normal even though she has broke up with him and I suggested we should talk about to try and get us talking.

Thanks man

Chase Amante's picture

After Breakup

Author

Anon-

Move as fast as you can. Chances are, she's hard on the rebound and needs a renewed sense of independence, desirability, freedom, and fun, and she's going to be looking for the first man who can provide that to her.

Chase

Witcher's picture

Making her chase after Direct opening


Hi.
I like very much the direct opening, but how to "don't "appear chasing witrh that sort of opener, it still contraductory!

i can make girls chase but it is when i use indirect or in social circle.

So how to inverse the tendencie after the direct opening?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Making her chase after Direct opening

Author

Witcher-

Much of this is down to delivery and presence - if your presence is very good, and your delivery is confident and solid, a direct opener comes across more as a statement of mild interest and a matter-of-fact compliment more than a declaration of, "I want you!" Done right, you'll have women pursue you more aggressively after a properly-delivered direct opener than any other form of direct.

The article on indirect game covers this overall feel quite well - see if you can't adapt the feel of indirect game to what you do with your direct openers too.

Chase

Prince's picture

Post idea & Question


Honestly when ever I check out what's new on your site the articles are always relevant to the situations I am in, coincidence?

Q. Laid back chasing, flakes: One problem I have had recently is flaking last minute or even after making plans. E.g. this girl I met in the lunch room, in person she agrees to hang out the next day, good eye contact etc. and I'm not needy but on the night if I text no reply...

Also girls putting/hanging/planning with friends first before me... I guess I have to build more attraction

Is that the reason why girls do that? It's just annoying how they say "yeah tomorrow sounds good etc" but don't follow through. I am in a college dorm like work program.

*An idea for a post: Safe sex in terms of protection, reducing the risks. Think it is an important to know in the game. Had a incident/scare recently....

Thanks mate! Keep up the great work

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Post idea & Question

Author

Prince-

Flakes can be a variety of things - if you're getting a LOT of them, then yes, it often means the girl wasn't taken enough with you on first meet. The best thing to do here is take this as cause to upgrade your fundamentals, and figure out what needs more work and work on it; the pound of cure after the fact usually is calling and building up rapport and a little attraction over the phone (if you're good at phone game, it makes up for a lot of mistakes earlier on; however, if you get good enough at making the right first impression, you won't need to make phone calls at all).

For flake management in general (especially if flakes are a more sporadic thing), see this article: "What to Do When Girls Flake."

On STDs - got it in the post queue!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase, when dealing with


Hey Chase, when dealing with a women you already screwed up with due to moving slow, say she agrees to spend time with you after letting her cool down, how fast would you want to move in this scenario?

I know you say you have to do the opposite of what you did when you lost her, in this case I was moving too slow and didn't get physical, but at the same time you say it has to be gradual so it's not an obvious reaction to her.

It makes the situation sort of tricky. So how fast would you want to be moving with a girl you already screwed up with by moving slow? Also what's a good idea for a meet up in that scenario after letting 6-8 months pass by?

I'd guess you want to start off touching her a bit, hugging her a bit longer than a friend would, touching her leg at the right time during conversation, etc? Clearly you'd want to try to sleep with her that first night, but is that too fast and not gradual enough? Wondering what your thoughts are on this one. Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Reboot with Girl You Moved Slow With

Author

Anon-

You really need to take a little while to figure out what box she's put you in when you're meeting up with her again, because you don't know where she's at or what her expectations are or her reasons for wanting to see you again; these can be all over the map. If she seems really excited, or talking about sexually suggestive things, then yes - make haste! If she isn't, but she's being generally warm and nice, treat it like she's boyfriend zoned you and use date compression on her... although, if you notice her warming up substantially and getting turned on toward the end of the first date, then absolutely - move fast, and let no window go to waste.

Chase

J's picture

Women


This goes for anyone who can help especially chase but are asian women conservative, does their culture impact their views on sex relationships etc do they play hard to get for a man they really like. do they get hurt easily? i used to like this women who was asian i moved her tlked to her did not chase her but everytime i tlked to her she would bust my balls be rude etc. in my mind im guessing shes in auto rejection but i dont know, hopefully you guys can help me out thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Asian Women

Author

J-

Asian women in general come from more conservative backgrounds than most women, especially Asian women from Asia (Asian women born and raised in the West tend to be not much more different than slightly more conservative than usual white girls). That said, there's a great deal of variation within the Asian woman population, just as there is in every population, and you'll meet everything from highly conservative, traditional Asian women to wild, raunchy, sex-crazed Asian women.

In general, the same things work with Asian women as work with any other women - you just may need to tone it down a bit if she seems like she's conservative to avoid offending her or coming across as too much for her... but you don't necessarily need to move any slower than you normally would.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Confused


Ok..this confused me a bit. You stated that you open with and then let the conversation die down, and then the girl starts chasing, and then you put in a bit of "chasing" as well.

If you open, but dont ask questions about her or dont try to qualify yourself, what exactly do you talk about? Random chit chat about your environment, cocky funny stuff, self-amusement? That makes sense I guess. And then you let the conversation die down, and check whether the girl starts qualifying or chasing..and then you begin normal conversation...What do you do if the girl doesnt hook, when you let the conversation dies down but the girl doesnt chase? Do you leave the set or go back to plowing with cocky funny, self amusement stuff? and rinse/repeat till the girl hooks?

Chase Amante's picture

Early Conversation, and Slow Opening

Author

Anon-

The best example I can give you for how to get a conversation going is here: Conversation Example. Essentially, early conversation's a mix of questions about her (these are fine early on... just don't go too deep before you've reached that point), statements, some playful banter, and the like. Generally you'll want to avoid too many comments about the environment, as it's impersonal and doesn't advance the interaction (and too much impersonal conversation makes for boring conversation).

On slow opening, the general premise is that you open... then naturally disengage, and create an opening for her to reengage you. If she does not, you can slowly and naturally reengage then (and, if you like, repeat the disengage, reengage process). Women won't always bite - but when they do, it's very favorable for you; and when they don't, your openers can have a more natural feel this way. Of course, the trade off is, you can't use slow opening in every environment (such as very high paced environments like the street or the dance floor).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Why would she text me this?


Hi Chase,

I have a question for you. There was a girl I screwed up with, making out with her when sex was not available and afterwards, I texted her to meet for dinner and got something along the lines of:

"Hi, I just got out of a relationship and dont think Im ready for another. But I would really be glad to be your friend".

I ignored this and just said,

"Nice to meet you, let me know if you ever visit my area"

Then about 5 days later she texted:

"Hey, i am having a real hard time talking to people in my classes, what should i do?"

I had ABSOLUTELY no idea why she would write this text. She is a shy asian girl and I thought she might be using this text as validation to see if I still wanted to talk to her or was legitimately wanting my response.

Do you know why she would text me something like that? thanks chase!

Chase Amante's picture

Girl Who Needs Help

Author

Jason-

See my reply to your original comment on this last week:

"Girl Who Needs Help"

Chase

David D.'s picture

Woman With Too Much Attention!


I have a question based on a me trying to win over a woman who is surrounded by, competitive men who won't allow her to breathe without them being near her. As a man who considers himself different from among the rest, I separate myself from the crowd and have had conversations with her in order to create comfort. I was able to get her number, but now the challenge is going on a date with her. From what I've learned and gathered, she can have a tendency of backing down from dates, being afraid to take chances, as well as creating walls based on her experience from overly persistent men. Therefore, that puts me in a position of being cautious and not knowing how and when to ask her on a date. I've read a numerous amount of your articles. But none seem to give me an idea on my next move. What would you suggest? Because No Man Has Been Able to Answer This Question Yet

Chase Amante's picture

Club Queens with Lots of Attention

Author

David-

This kind of woman I call a "club queen" (or, if she doesn't frequent nightclubs, sometimes "a club queen without a club"). They thrive off of attention, and are very good at making every man they interact with feel like there's a great personal connection between the two of them, and that he isn't very far from "getting somewhere" with her... except that most of the time, it's all an illusion, used to maintain her attention levels and keep up her fan base of men in orbit.

If she's interested, she'll go out with you. If she won't... it's invariably because you didn't make a strong enough impression when you met her / interacted with her that she felt she really wanted to - OR, sometimes, if it's social circle, because you're lacking in scarcity (thus, no urgent need to meet you NOW) and/or you've gotten too close to her without doing anything after (you want to keep social circle girls on your periphery until you're ready to make a clear move for them - if you build up too much tension or connection, then fail to follow it up, the windows close - see "The Secret to Hooking Up with Friends" and Peter's series on social circle).

When you take numbers, you want to always ask for the date FIRST, then take the number (and the date is the reason why you take the number). Then negates any weird / awkward maneuvering to try to get a date over phone or text, which looks weak or cowardly when you COULD have asked a girl out in person... but didn't.

If you're putting out fires and trying to correct not securing the date before securing the phone number, the best advice is normally to call her, have a great conversation with her on the phone, then call her again a few days later, and after a few minutes of chatting, propose meeting up for food or drinks just the two of you at some point then.

Chase

The M's picture

Engaging w/o eye contact, removing social leeches


Hey Chase,

If I'm sitting near/walking by an acquaintance (male or female) but they don't make eye contact with me when I glance over, but they're still glancing around all over the place (so they're not lost in thought), does it mean that they just don't want to talk to me? Should I just not bother engaging them?

How do you remove social leeches - people who keep asking you about how to do simple things, where things are, stuff they could Google, etc.? This only gets worse when they start asking for little favors here and there, etc.

OK, and here's the hard part - when they're not asking questions, we have a lot in common and appear to have a great connection (better than other friends I have). Is it worth staying friends with this kind of person? In the long-run I think that they will basically use me and move on - my only "reward" being a temporary good connection - and I'll have just wasted a lot of time on a "friendship" that was more a matter of convenience. It's easier to be a leech when you're good friends with the host. I also think that they do the exact same thing with lots of other "friends" at the same time.

Actually, a post on how to detect, prevent from attaching, and remove friendly-behaving social leeches might be cool.

Thanks!

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Engaging w/o eye contact, removing social leeches

Author

M-

When people aren't noticing you, a simple hand wave and smile is usually sufficient. If they're still oblivious, walking up and saying, "Hey!" will do the trick. Sometimes people are just off in their own worlds... I'm often guilty of this myself, and I'll have people walk right up to me and say, "Hey! Chase!" not even realizing that someone I knew was in the vicinity. Maybe I was listening to audio, or looking at a pretty girl, or thinking about whatever... it's never because you're trying to ignore the person outright (well... hardly ever).

On social leeches - that's easy (and fun!). As soon as they start up with that: "I don't know man, check Google." "I don't know, go look for it." "I have no idea - find it yourself, man." That's the magic leech removal phrase: "I don't know" + a command on how to self-solve their own problems. They disappear pretty fast once you start doing this with them. Noted on an article on detecting and dealing with these types of folks though - it's on the list now.

Chase

The M's picture

That was easy


lol. I guess I have trouble saying "I don't know" when I DO know very well...

Thanks, Chase.

M

Billy's picture

Chasing? Losing? Player??


I've been "hanging out" with this girl i know for about a month now. We met off a dating site and hit it off pretty well. Tons of questions back and forth. Developed good chemistry. Recently, I tried to go in for the kiss because we had built a pretty good foundation, but her body language as i went for the case told me that she was in rejection mode. She doesn't mind kissing on the cheek or holding hands with me though. Later on, she revealed that she's not "looking for anything right now and doesn't want to lead me on." Yet she continues to want to see me and do activities together. She also meets other guy friends that she likes doing things with. So I'm at a bit of a loss here. She's continually hanging with pretty much as many guys as she can (including me), but won't commit to a certain one. We still talk, text, hangout once a week. What do i do? I like her, but I have a feeling that she's just throwing EVERYONE into the friendzone. She says that she just likes to go with the flow and not worry about the future. Help?

Thank You!

Chase Amante's picture

Friend Zone

Author

Billy-

A month of regularly spending time with a girl without reaching physical intimacy is far too long - you can really only afford a few dates maximum before you're in the friend zone. See these for perspective:

... for firefighting your situation right now (as opposed to understanding why you're there, and what to do differently with the next girl - which is what the articles above are for), see these:

Chase

Mark's picture

female point of view, advice


I posted those 2 q on another post, didnt get reply, so i will try here.
Hi Chase. First of all – you are AWESOME, this site is an eye opener, altought i have red maybe 40 articles so far. Second sorry for my english, its not my first language, if i made some mistakes.
Before i found your site, i was making quite enough mistakes with girls, and after reading your articles most of these mistakes disapear ( not all of them off cource, but on the other hand you cant master something over night ).
I have so many questions for you, but i will ask only 2, i am shure you have better things to do, than typing all day long. Those 2 question originates from my problem , and those question bugs me because i cant figure them out ( i have red some posts on this topic, but in my mind there are still some ilogical issues here )
My problem is that i am sloted into boyfriend/husband category almost 90% of the time with girls, only because my education, my job and my behaviour – i am 31 year old doctor ( M.D.), tall, body in shape, and some would say fairly handsome.As for my behaviour- i am pretty much confident guy ( with girls even more after i find this site ), so i am faaaar from a wuss with no backbone, but i am not some arogant jerk – bad boy,i am friendly and warm person who likes other people and like to help others whenever i can.
Few days ago i overheard some females in bar talking about relationships, and one of them make a statement that good guys are for serious relationships, and bad boys are for great casual sex.Her female friends comments : "yeah totally !!!" By my logic that is as if she was saying that good guys cant give her great sex, only bad boys can rock her world in bed, but in return for his lacking in sex department good guy will give her some great relationship in return. Why on earth do they think this way???!! So based on their thoughts, just because i am doctor, who is respected in his community, and friendly, and have manners, i must be awful in bed, i am lousy lover ??! Lets be honest and logical here. If you have two guys, first is short overweight men, drink to much, smoke to much, doesent take care of himself, and second guy is strong, muscular, sporty guy, it is safe to presume ( and only presume ) that second have more strenght, endurance and experience and will be far better in bed.
But in situation where you have ordinary looking normal guy, and ordinary looking "bad boy" , how can she tell bad boy will f.ck my brain out, and this good, normal guy will be lousy lover.?!How can she presume that ?
In a last year i begin to aply some of your rules ( thums up, you are awesome ), and they give me much more succes with girls then before, but there are still some great, good quallity girls which want to play some hard to get, i am prude little angel games with me.
Same girls had quite a few first date sex, or one night stands, but guess what - NOT WITH ME, with me she is good princess. Few years ago they would fool me around, but after your advices no more LOL !!! If i don’t bed her by the third date maximum, her and i are over, that is my policy now.
My second question is about these “little angels”. They try playing hard to get, and then after third date with no sex, i don’t want to waste my time any more, she gets angry with me.”Why don i try little harder, why i give up so easily?” And then when i explained to them that i don’t want to be some logical choise for her, some second best consolation prize, future husband etc, but i want to be lover first, and if that grows into relationship great, if not its not the end of the world, they are angry even more !!!.I also want to be a guy she has no problem sleeping with after first date, and when she clearly showed me i am not one of those in her mind, i want to stop waste my time and move on to some other girl. I wish you could see their look in that moment .As if they think – “how this sweet nice guy exibit this bad boy behaviour and attitude – how dare he ?!”
Whats up with that? Please try to explaine female psychology behind these 2 questions, because i cant understand it at all. Thanks in advance.
P.S. keep up great work !!!

Chase Amante's picture

Boyfriend Zone

Author

Mark-

Women generally find (and you'll generally find too, if you pay attention to men) that men who work hard and have good careers and are "good guys" tend to have more conservative attitudes about sex, and tend to be a lot more discriminating about the kinds of women they let into their lives in anything like long-term capacity.

The girl wasn't saying, "An ugly bad boy with a crappy job and a boring personality is GREAT for sex!" What she was staying instead was, "A charming, sexy bad boy with an engaging personality is great for sex!" and, "A nice, supportive, good guy with a good career is perfect for the long-term!" From talking to women, these categories are usually pretty reliable; if a guy's a charming rogue bad boy who's confident with women, he's often good in bed, while if a guy seems like a friendly nice guy, he's usually not.

I'd say you sound like you're more someone who doesn't cleanly fit either category - so don't take it personally what those women were saying; they probably weren't picturing a sexy, charming guy who is ALSO a good guy with a good career. That kind of guy is a woman's "dream man", and she'll both assume he's going to be good in bed AND that he's going to be pretty discriminating about women and she should play it slow to avoid blowing it with him or giving him the impression she's an easy girl unfit for a long-term relationship.

See these articles on dealing with the boyfriend zone issue:

... also, these articles, on making things happen faster:

On the girls you cut things off with - rather than getting in a fight with them, which doesn't do anyone any good, why not try date compression? If you're already in the boyfriend zone already, might as well run with it, and just give the girl the drawn-out dating experience she's expecting - only, in a much shorter, faster time table:

The main issue here is that your presentation to women is set up in a way that you create a certain kind of expectation - it's just how you come across. But the impression you give to women is not the impression you WANT to give to women, so they are not responding to you the way you want them to respond to you. The main issue here is tweaking your presentation so that you're conveying to women the things you want to convey to get them thinking of you how you want them to think of you - see the articles above, and also the one that just went up by Richard for more on expectations:

Chase

Kyle's picture

Get this


Love this website chase! Alright, here's the situation: I meet a girl on Monday at a church activity. Goes great, she into me, she's a professional ballet dancer. I move her around, we hang out with some friends for a while, it's all good. She asks me to take her rock climbing. We go Wednesday, all good, make out later, etc. I'm dating several girls in this fashion right now. I get her chasing me, she invites herself over to cuddle and watch a movie, we make out, good deal. Here's the interesting part.
Her roommates know whee she is, they start texting her that some cute boys next door are looking for her, she texts back that she's already with a cute guy. They try a few more times ( dick move, they're 18 and naive), but it's fine. Toward the end of the movie, she realizes she has homework due in the morning, says she needs to leave, not certain of her intentions I just said, "ok, see you later" and show her the door. She takes my hand, makes me walk her home. As we're leaving, one of these tools calls her and asks her to come home (roommates gave him the number), she says she's coming home, but only to do homework alone in her room. He says he's gonna meet her en route, she says thanks but no, don't do that.
So we're walking back, she's all over me, we turn the corner to her complex and there's a grade A toolbag with 2 roommat and some girl. The proceed to jump us and surround the girls I'm with, so I decide in the moment to just put my hand on her lower back and guide her through, with a smile I just said "hang on guys, she'll be free in a minute", walk her to the door, she gives me a hug and discrete kiss, I feel like a man, and walk home.
Of course the tools are butt hurt, and start telling her when I'm gone that I'm rude and shouldn't let me embarrass her like that, blah blah blah. She tries to give me an out saying "they're cool, they just said everyone has a dick night". I just told her we can talk about it apin person next time if its bothering her. 3 days later, we go out again, and she mentions it casually. I explained that in a reality I was the only one being considerate, in fact the only one who wasn't rude, I apologized only that she had to put up with the guys busting her balls, but explained that I handled the situation like a I handle everything else in my life. On my terms.

Today I see her at church trying to catch my eye flirting with toolbag guy, I ignore her and make cute new girl friends.
I'm ready to just tell her those guys are probably more suited to her anyways, she young and inexperienced and should go date a bunch of guys, and as always, provided an out: if she wants to climbing sometime or grab a bite, she's got my. Otherwise, see ya later. Opinions?

Chase Amante's picture

Girl Defending Guys

Author

Kyle-

This girl sided with them against you, which needs to be challenged by you for you to not lose her respect. As soon as she says, "They're cool, they just said everyone has a dick night," she's said, "They are cool, you were the dick." What you need to reply with here is, "Wait, what? I thought I was being the cool one and they were the dicks. Did I have that wrong? Maybe you can explain this to me, maybe there's something I'm missing socially." Then she'll tell you why she thought they were in the right and you were in the wrong here (my guess: you were all outside and she figured it was fine to stop and socialize, but you shepherded her past them instead of being cool and talking, which looked weird and unfriendly / unsociable / afraid of the risk of them stealing her away from you).

Kissing, in any event, is a low-commitment activity, and girls who are kissing but not sexually active will frequently flit about from guy to guy, kissing and flirting with different guys, because it's fun and it doesn't mean anything. Girls who ARE sexually active have kissing as Step 1 on a short road to sex, and when it isn't followed immediately after with physical intimacy, their escalation windows close. I don't know which camp this girl falls into, and what different nuances there may be in a church situation, but women are women, and it sounds like she's now trying to make you jealous, which means she's going into auto-rejection because she feels like you had her but didn't take her... in order to protect her ego from the feeling of being rejected, she needs to get you jealous and chasing after her (and then she can safely move on and tell herself, "Okay, that's better; HE didn't reject ME; *I* rejected HIM"). I would NOT tell her "text me anytime", because that's the free pass she's looking for - she just taunted you by calling you a dick and flirting with someone else in front of you, and you're going to tell her to text you any time?

Just ignore her and meet other women until she comes chasing after you, at which point you can allow her to slowly win you back over... if she's persistent enough. Or else, just let her go - she's clearly using the other guy to make YOU feel emotions, which means you're the important one to her here, and he's just a tool for her to use.

Chase

Estate's picture

Chase, Great insight as


Chase,
Great insight as usual. I feel I'm pretty aware now when I am chasing vs. when a girl is chasing and quickly become better at setting the interaction up so she is chasing...

... but there are still the exceptions like above where you feel you are chasing and need the "hard push". Speaking to a situation recently with 2 different girls. Basically I got their numbers, they seemed interested but the interaction wasn't long enough to really sell it to them. It was just due to things going on at the time, there wasn't any way around it, either get the number or forget it completely.

Anyway, obviously I end up in a situation where all I have is their number and now I need to "sell" it to them to meet me. Is there really any way to do this? No matter what I have to initiate contact and basically convince them that meeting up will be great. They don't know me well enough so obviously the texting is positive but a little lukewarm at first.

Is there a way to sell yourself this way? I mean, the obvious answers would be to either write it off since I am now chasing, or in future, make sure I have built enough attraction before leaving with the number... but given that's not the case... is there a strategy? Or can I just write these girls off as lost?

Chase Amante's picture

Two Lukewarm Girls

Author

Estate-

If a girl is TRULY lukewarm, this can be the rare exception-that-proves-the-rule where you want to propose a party date or some other kind of meet up in which it's not just you and her and is something fun and exciting and high value.

If you want to be REALLY sneaky, you invite her to a really cool party on short notice - something that she'll be happy you invited her to - with the expectation that since it's short notice, she probably won't be able to make it... then, having created some good feelings and established yourself as a man with value to offer this way, you can text her to meet up for a quick drink the following week, and once you've got her out you can show yourself off and let her find out what kind of man you are and get her excited about you for you, instead of you for what you have to offer in terms of party / connection / entertainment value.

Chase

Mark's picture

female point of view, advice


Thanks Chase !

imar311's picture

Hey Chase hows it going?


Hi Dani here i have a concern, you see im starting to do direct cold approaches on the Street at day and at night and im getting good resposes but i just cant seem to get the girl hooked, like i stop them ground my opener and compliment and introduce my self often, and throw in an assumption or two, i mean some girls seem to open up like straight away and asking me questions, buts thats most of all at night.. and i kind of feel like they want me to pull but i dont really feel confident enough to do that! now, in the day they tend to like the compliment and all but they just dont stay to chat when i throw in assumptions and i dont know what to do to not make it look like im chasing them basically.

Thanks in advance Chase,

Dani

Victor Danilo

Chase Amante's picture

Street Game

Author

Dani-

Street's a little hard to get adapted to at first, but it's fantastic for giving you both a great deal of flexibility (in terms of being able to meet women wherever you are) and higher caliber women to meet.

You can't always not chase in street, at least at the outset; street's a little like doing mass approaches in nighttime venues, in which you're more or less going to be directly walking up to women in plain view of them and other women, and it's clear you're approaching and at least starting out as the pursuer. So it's a somewhat different dynamic than what you can build with more relaxed or "natural" approaches.

The #1 thing for street is leveling up all your fundamentals as much - when it's clear you're assuming the role of pursuer at the outset, your appearance / posture / clothes / hair / voice / smile get a closer look than when you're comfortably falling into an open - if they're good enough, a portion of women will give you strong favorable signs right away to help you out and encourage you on in what is a relatively difficult thing to pull off (they imagine).

At night, I much prefer walking a bit with women, and asking if they're hungry / grabbing some late night food with them if they don't seem REALLY excited, or just proposing an after party and taking them home. During daytime, you can propose getting a coffee, or, if you're really smooth, just keep walking and talking and invite her to come with you to help you pick out a gift for your mother or sister (e.g., a CD or DVD), or do your grocery shopping, then pull her home to help you cook dinner.

If you're not going for same day / same night pulls, it's reasonably easy to connect fast and ask for the date, then the phone number - or, if you're in a hurry, you can use the two minute number close talked about here: "How to Get a Phone Number from a Girl Every Time You Ask."

We have a serving of articles on the site that discuss street - I'd recommend checking them out if you haven't already:

... those should help iron out a few more kinks, as well.

Chase

imar311's picture

Yeah thanks Chase ill get to


Yeah thanks Chase ill get to it.. liking your book by the way, im on the value chapter now. (Y)

Victor Danilo

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