There's Always Another Man in Her Life


another man in her lifeAt the start of the new year, there was a thread on the boards with suggestions for new articles this year. Zac suggested one on the tendency of women to always have men in their lives... and that this should never be an obstacle for you when meeting new women.

It’s a curious thing for me to think about. This concept is one I spend zero thought cycles on myself, and it always strikes me as a little odd and funny when I see men talking about it now... mostly guys on the boards talking about their concerns about approaching: but what if she has a boyfriend?

Not just boyfriend, though; but what about that guy she’s talking to? Or, yeah, I see her by herself right now – but what if there’s someone else nearby? What if she has a lover and I don’t know it?

The fact is, EVERY woman you meet is going to have SOME guy in her life, in SOME capacity. There is some man who is important to her who is “limiting” her choices in men in some way.

The thing about approaching though is this: you’ve got to learn to disregard these men as abstractions and approach away, anyway.


another man in her life

Just because you don’t see him, doesn’t mean he isn’t there.

From the start of my seduction career, I made it a point to come across as completely open, accepting, and non-judgmental as I possibly could with girls. Especially after sleeping together. What I wanted was to learn as much about women’s true natures as I possibly could... because most of what I knew was from books and television shows, and I knew that every one of those carried the slant of the writer.

I quickly found out that human relationships are a very messy thing. What I expected going in as a novice was that the women I would meet and sleep with would be:

  1. Completely single, and
  2. All looking for relationships

My assumption was, if a woman sleeps with you, it’s either because she’s totally single and thinks you might make a good boyfriend, or because she’s totally single and you seem like you might make a good fling.

Instead, what I learned was that there are always men of moderate to significant importance in the life of every woman you meet.

Sometimes, women will tell you directly about these men, if you help them to feel comfortable enough.

Other times though, these men are invisible.


God, Father, Lover, Crush

Every woman you meet has a man influencing her, guiding her choices, and making her more inclined or less inclined to date and sleep with other men:

  • Her boyfriend
  • Her husband
  • Her lover
  • Her crush
  • Her father
  • Her brother
  • Her god

another man in her lifeThis can be an alien thing to realize when you’re a man starting out. It may be the case that you have no woman in your life at all who is affecting your mating choices and activities. And, especially when we’re inexperienced in a thing, we tend to fill in all the blank holes of our (lack of) understanding of that thing by projection of our own selves... in this case, sexually and romantically inexperienced men usually assume that women are just like them.

When you are as I was starting out, and you have no women influencing your day-to-day life, and you don’t otherwise have a highly developed mental model of the opposite sex, you will find yourself assuming that girls are like you: totally single, uninfluenced by anyone else, every decision they make completely of their own volition without having to take into consideration any complicating variables.

But in fact, there’s probably not a woman on Earth who is uninfluenced by some at least moderately important relationship with a man in her life. There’s just no getting away from it.

It might be that a girl has a boyfriend (though just because she says she has a boyfriend doesn’t mean she absolutely does); it might be that she has a secret lover she’s told no one about.

It might be that there’s some guy from her school, work, or social circle that she’s crushing on in a major way, and dreaming about getting married to and having babies with (or just having him come scoop her up and give her a night of passionate, sheet-drenching love making).

It might be that she talks to her brother almost every day, or that she has lunch with her father every week and talks about life with him.

It might be that she’s a religious girl, and her relationship with her god is one of the most important relationships in her life.

You might find such things out, either on a date or after you first sleep with a girl, if you both make her comfortable and have a girl who likes to talk about herself openly and dislikes secrets.

With a great many women, however, you may well never know.


another man in her life

The men who are close to a woman have an assortment of different effects on her:

  • They can alleviate some of her needs
  • They can drive her to meet men like them
  • They can drive her to meet men unlike them

A bit about each of these below.


He Takes Care of Her Needs

This is usually when a girl has one of the following:

  • A very good friend or brother who provides emotional reassurance
  • A boyfriend or a husband who provides relationship security
  • A father or father figure who provides life direction
  • A lover who provides sexual satisfaction

Generally speaking, the more of a woman’s needs that are already being satisfied by other men in her life, the less ajar the door into her life (or panties) typically is. Do keep in mind that women’s levels of need are all over the map, depending on their emotional state at the moment, and their emotional personality overall (secure and in control, or insecure and crazy/needy? Someone who needs lot of attention, or little? A girl with a low sex drive, or one that’s through the roof?).

One of the things you’ll run into among girls who have boyfriends or husbands but who are still open to sleeping with you (as opposed to girls who have these but are uninterested in taking a lover on the side on) is that they’re very often much easier to sleep with than single women. Why? Because they don’t have to worry about whether sleeping with you impacts their chance to get relationship security from you... they’re already getting that from their current partner. That makes the whole “should I sleep with him or not?” call an easier one to make.

Conversely, women who are in need of emotional reassurance and/or direction in life in addition to sexual satisfaction can be easier to sleep with if you’re capable of providing these things (that is, an emotional connection, and inspiration), though they’ll be clingy or needy after sex often times because you provide so much different value to their lives that they’re far more afraid of losing you than they would be had you only provided value to them in one of those ways.

In my opinion, when you’re looking for a girlfriend, you want one who is not in need of emotional reassurance because she’s emotionally solid herself and/or has a centered relationship with her family or close friends.

When you’re looking for a quick fling, on the other hand, her needing emotional reassurance can only help your cause, but you’ll have an easier time of things if she isn’t looking from relationship security from you – either because she’s already got it with someone else, or because you’ve taken yourself out of the running for the boyfriend role.


He Drives Her to Meet Men Like Him

another man in her lifeIt sometimes is the case that a woman has a father (or father figure), brother, or close friend whom she holds in very high esteem. If he’s her friend, she may also find him attractive, but they aren’t together for whatever reason (could be that he’s in a committed relationship; or, maybe both are shy and no one’s ever made a move).

As cited in the article on doing well when meeting a girlfriend’s family, the research on female sexual imprinting shows that women with positive relationships with their fathers growing up select men who look a lot like their fathers. Anecdotally, I’d add that women with strong relationships with their fathers also choose men who resemble their fathers personality-wise, too. A similar form of sexual imprinting seems to occur with other very close men she’s had positive relationships with.

The result of this is, if you remind girls a lot of men they have good relationships, memories, or experiences with, you’ll often get a sort of “free pass” with them – they’re warmer to you, more receptive to you right away, will test you less and comply with you more.

In this case, you benefit most from reminding a woman of the men closest to her, and she will be more inclined to get to know you if you remind her of the men she cares for.


He Drives Her to Meet Men Unlike Him

The opposite scenario is that a woman doesn’t like the men closest to her; she has love-hate relationships with them, or even just all “hate” ones. She ends up seeking a man who is the polar opposite of her father / brother / friend / partner. Most women who cheat on their boyfriends and husbands are seeking a man who is unlike their partner, because they are unhappy with him (though in the case of high sex drive / highly experienced women who are straying, it can be the case that the girl is perfectly happy with her man, but just needs a dash of novelty – in which case, she may cheat on her guy with a guy who reminds her a lot of her guy, because that’s her “type”).

Where this is the case, a woman will look for men who look nothing like the men close to her she has bad relationships with; she’ll look for different personality types, although she can have love-hate relationships with them, too... for instance, the girl who’s father was negligent and rogue-ish will seek out safe relationships with stable men, only to lose respect for these men and break up or cheat to find negligent, rogue-ish men, whom she dislikes but sleeps with anyway, only to leave in order to find a more secure man to pair up with once more.

When you meet women with troubled pasts with men, you’re usually best served by emulating the men these women have the most emotion with in your actions, while seeming like their opposites in your words. This normally means being an aloof asshole body-language and voice tone-wise, while saying lots of nice things.

You want to remind her subconscious of the man she has a deep and painful, but familiar, relationship with, while consciously striking her as someone totally and refreshingly different (obviously, women with troubled pasts you want to cross off the list as potential girlfriends – don’t go sacrificing yourself to save some damsel in distress).


another man in her life

Aside from the limited emulating of preferred character traits mentioned above that you can do after eliciting values from a girl about the men in her past, not that much.

You have no control over who the other men in the lives of women you haven’t even met yet are, or what sorts of relationships they have.

You have no way to know that that woman walking down the street has a father she’s close to, or a good male friend, or a supportive brother, or a boyfriend, or a husband, or some fellow she’s crushing on hard.

The only thing you can know is that every woman you meet has another man in her life.

Period. End of story. You won’t meet a blank slate... they aren’t out there.

If you’ve been using the “Yeah, but what if she has X male figure in her life?” as an excuse to not approach, you’ve got to drop it, because every woman around you has some kind of important male figure in her life.

Every girlfriend I’ve had had a close male friend, men she was going on dates with, or a family member she was close with when I first met her. Plenty of other girls I’ve slept with and didn’t get to know nearly as well as those I’ve had relationships I never the less heard about from them or found out about later having lovers, boyfriends, or husbands at the time we got together, as well as men who were chasing after them, guys they had crushes on, and the like.

Every woman has men in her life in some close capacity at all times. There just aren’t women that go live reclusive lives without important male figures in them just because. Even the strongest, most independent women you’ll meet have men in their lives.

So set this one aside, quit worrying about it, and go approach some girls.

Yes, they’re all going to have men in their lives; and those men will influence their reactions to you in some way it’s impossible to predict before you meet them.

And that’s why you’ve got to go meet them: to find out if they’re one of the girls being influenced to find you more attractive, or if they’re one of the girls being influenced to find you not so attractive. You don’t meet the former without wading through some of the latter... that’s just how it goes.

There’s always another man in her life. Don’t stress it – just put soles to pavement and go say “Hi” regardless.

You may just be exactly the kind of man she’s inclined to enjoy meeting.

Chase

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

high value problem


Hello Chase,

I joined a new gym and there are a few girls I find attractive. Some work there and some are members; some I find more attractive than others. Do I need to be careful about how I go about attracting these women so that they don't see me flirting with or dating other girls there (whom they might know)? And for girls that I'm only minutely attracted to, should I turn off my sexiness (even if I thought they were cute but didn't want to pursue them it would be strange to flirt with them but never escalate to anything else)? It's like when I'm "on" I can't turn it "off" and I just have to be sexy towards every female: young, old, family members too! feels kinda gross actually.

Chase Amante's picture

One or Many?

Author

Anon-

Whether you go for one girl or many somewhat depends on your strategy. You'll usually have better luck landing the girl who's the leader / most dominant woman there if you primarily focus on her. However, if you're the outgoing sociable guy who flirts with everyone, you'll usually have an easier time landing several of the girls a bit further down on the status hierarchy (though a much tougher time with the women higher up, who feel much less "special" than they would if you spoke only to them).

Sexiness is best left on, in my experience. Even if she's older / not your type, being a little sexy with her is just good form; she's more likely to think well of you, to say nice things about you to the other girls, and to not try and cockblock you later. Just don't get her TOO excited, to the point where she starts actively competing for you, if she isn't a girl you want.

Also, if you haven't seen it, check out this article: "Gym Pickup: Dos Don'ts and How to Meet Girls at a Gym."

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Openers Questions


Hey Chase

Hope you could answer a few questions I have on opening.

My general understanding is that:

During day game when your not going to be with x girl for very long it's good to state intention go direct and get the ball rolling, show her why the hell you are talking with her.

But during night game perhaps in a bar/club, surely your intention is somewhat already stated, I mean most girls must know that when a guy is introducing himself and talking to her in a club that he likes her.

So during night game is going direct/stating intention as important? Surely situational openers would be just as effective here?

What about during day game when you are about to open a girl who you know has time on her hands and so do you (for example sitting at tables in park or something eating food) will going direct here not leave that girl feeling a bit trapped incase she doesn't like this man who obviously likes her. Would situational openers and starting a convo whilst slowly adding hints and frames to the interaction be most successful?

My understanding is that stating intention early an going direct is best used on a girl you won't be spending much time with an when you are in an environment where intention isn't already stated. Is that correct? If no please advise :)

On another note can you advise on the likelihood of the 'are you single' opener ending up with you looking a bit boyfriendy because of course you are talking about being single and all that jazz, does it not leave you looking concerned about her relationship status as opposed to not caring? Please advise how to best use this one.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Openers Questions

Author

Anon-

Yes, your reads on these are right.

Direct you'll mostly use with women you're meeting in faster paced environments where you don't have much time to make an impression; e.g., women walking on the street, browsing in a shop or grocery, cashiers when you're just in line for a moment or are on your way out of a place, girls you're approaching by walking up to in the middle of a nightclub, etc. For more laid back approaches, like a girl waiting in line in front of you at a checkout, or sitting down sipping her coffee, or leaning back against the bar, you're usually better off going situational (although you can still use direct here too, especially if you're just passing through and you yourself won't be hanging around; if you're hanging around no matter what and she is, better usually to go situational so it isn't a direct blowout / awkwardness if she doesn't bite).

As for "Are you single?" it's also context-based; I'd suggest using that one the same as you'd use a direct opener. If you can't come across forceful and strong when you say it, better to go situational than to pull out the big guns and have them be deflected.

Chase

Jake's picture

Day game


Chase if a man is good at night game, does it makes sense that most likely he will be good at day game?

Because - during day game most of the numbers you get will come from quick short interactions which involve a bit of banter whilst relying majorly on your fundamentals. Things are a lot less complicated and if your a man with good fundamentals you will surely find day gaming a very straight forward process?

Whereas night game there are many more variables to add to spice up the interactions etc - chase framing, deep diving, moving her, escalation windows etc etc.

For pure numbers surely day game is easier than night game, would you agree?

Day game for me is all about getting numbers and following up on them to see which ones hit, this is a very easy process

Compare that to night game where you actually have to seduce a girl then and there.

I just want to know if my logic is correct, please let me know if I am miles off, thank you chase.

Chase Amante's picture

Day Game vs. Night Game?

Author

Jake-

Overall, it's reversed - if a guy's good at day game, he'll have an easy time transitioning to night game; conversely, if he's good at night, day can often be a struggle to learn. I'm assuming a skilled day gamer who's focused not only on getting phone numbers / dates, but who also goes for same-day pulls and tries to take women he meets on the street home or go to their place then and there when he can swing it.

Main reason it seems to be this way is it just requires a set of balls of steel to break social convention, stop women walking down the street, get them to drop their plans and come with you, and sleep with them in the middle of the daytime. When a guy who knows how to do this goes to nightclubs, the only additional things he has to worry about are the social dynamics of groups of people, but even then, it's fairly straightforward for someone conditioning by day game to be able to pick out which girls are interested and peel them off their groups. Conversely, night gamers tend to devise a lot of game strategies that just don't work on the street, while street strategies translate fairly well to night game. It's also just less anxiety-inducing to approach a girl in a dark place where the point is talking to strangers, vs. running up to a girl in the bright of day, where everyone's stone sober, can see what you're doing, and used to minding his own business.

If you reserve things to just taking phone numbers, you could probably make the case that day game is easier and switching from night to day is the easier transition, yes, provided you aren't too bothered by the difference in anxiety and social context. For actually going all the way and taking girls as lovers, though, the day gamer has an easier transition to night than the night gamer has to day.

Chase

Sam2's picture

Women and occasional abstinence from sex


Chase,

Great piece of writing!

How long is it possible for a woman to stay out of any sexual relations with men?
I am asking you this because of a research I read on this topic about the women of my country.

The results were shocking: 75% of the women between 25 and 35 years old have no erotic partner and find resort to masturbation. Apart from this, I know from personal experience that women run through "on" and "off" phases reagarding their sexual availabilty, while, us, men are pretty much always sexually available.

On top of these, in another article I read that men have 20 times more testosterone in their blood than women. This means that a man's day off from sex equals to a woman's 20 days off from sex; and a man's 20-day break from sex equals a woman's 400-day break from sex (!)

With these thoughts in mind, my question would be: yes, women might always have a male figure around in the general sense, but how often do they have a man in their lives in the narrow sense (i.e. a man to have sex with)? If the above observations are valid, then women seem to be biologically stronger in dealing with their sexual desires and actually better at living without a man in their bed...

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Women and occasional abstinence from sex

Author

Sam-

It depends a lot on the woman, the culture of the country, and where specifically / what environment she lives in, and what her friends and going out patterns are like.

I've had girls I've slept with where I'd been the first man they'd been with in years, and I've had girls who've never gone more than a few weeks without sleeping with someone. Generally it seems like women of "normal" sex drives and lifestyles will go variable stretches without sex; sometimes negligible amounts of time, sometimes stretches that drag on for months, half a year, or more.

Women go through phases just like men do; a woman may have a long stretch where she's focused entirely on school or work, only to suddenly get the urge, and start socializing with gusto however she socializes (parties, group outings with friends, etc.), which is basically when she's in "mate-finding mode." Men do the same things, and you may have seen it in yourself.

Estrogen increases sex drive too; it isn't just testosterone. Someone saying one day off from sex for a man is like 20 days off from sex for a woman probably hasn't spent much time hanging out with groups of women; it only takes a few times of listening to drunk girls complain to their friends that, "I want to get laaaaaaaiiiiiid!" for you to realize that the female sex drive is not so alien to the male one. Mix in a few relationships where you've set the girl up to pursue sex with you, and pretty soon you realize that women are every bit as horny as men... the big difference between the two is that for men, almost anyone within reason will do, but for women, most men are a turn off, and actually dampen their sex drives. A woman needs the right man to come along, wake her drive up, and restore her hope in men (and sex).

Chase

The M's picture

Men, reason


Hi Chase,

How about men - do they always have someone important in their lives, and does that person tend to be male or female? And if not, why are women different? Just curious.

Best,
The M

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Men, reason

Author

M-

Depends on the man, but there are a lot of men who go long stretches without any important woman in their lives.

The main reason why you can find men with zero important women in their lives while it's next to impossible to find women with zero important men in their lives is because both men and women want members of the opposite sex in their lives, but only women have members of the opposite sex regularly competing for roles in their lives.

If a woman, for instance, is a bit of a recluse and is focused on whatever she's focused on that isn't people, men will still find her anyway, and do everything in their power to integrate themselves into her life in one way or another.

Conversely, if a man is a bit of a recluse and is focused on whatever he's focused on that isn't people, no one's going to come looking for him. Women are waiting to be approached, and they're getting whatever men approach them; the man who does no approaching usually gets nothing added to his life.

In practice, women also tend to be more outgoing and more people-focused on average than men do, which only makes it easier for them to meet new men too. There are a lot more men living their lives in computers, video games, and Internet porn than there are women living their lives through these; and even the women who are usually have throngs of computer geek fans, all desperate to win the heart of that one cool gamer girl they know.

Chase

Velour's picture

Conservative vs. Liberal


I met a girl I like and we’ve been together a few times. She seems cool and is independent and non-needy, non-crazy. However, she says that her family is very conservative and she herself is religious, which I am not. I’m wondering how important is it for a relationship to work that the two of you see eye to eye on social issues and religion?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Conservative vs. Liberal

Author

Velour-

The most important factor here is going to be whether the two of you are biological liberals and conservatives or not. If you're on the same side of the coin, it could work; if you're not, it probably won't.

People who are biologically conservative, according to John Haidt's moral foundations theory, value all of these things equally:

  • Care/Harm
  • Fairness/Cheating
  • Liberty/Oppression
  • Loyalty/Betrayal
  • Authority/Subversion
  • Sanctity/Degradation

... while people who are biologically liberal strictly value:

  • Care/Harm
  • Fairness/Cheating
  • Liberty/Oppression

So, what happens is, liberals place a great deal more importance on caring for others, avoiding harming others, keeping things fair, avoiding cheating, and maintaining liberty while avoiding oppression than conservatives do - twice as much emphasis, generally. Meanwhile, conservatives place as much emphasis on maintaining loyalty, avoiding betrayal, respecting authority, combating subversion, and upholding sanctity while preventing degradation as they do the others, where liberals view these things as valueless.

It ends up being that liberals and conservatives both view one another as crazy or morally bankrupt, because both are viewing the world through different lens and view the others as failing to value as important things that are clearly extremely important. A liberal thinks a conservative is morally bankrupt for not caring as much about the suffering of others as he does; meantime, a conservative thinks a liberal is morally bankrupt for trodding all over the sanctity of things she thinks must be kept pure without so much as a moment's thought.

(worth noting that you can be one thing biologically and belong to another side politically / religiously, so these aren't necessarily cut and dry indications that a person is or isn't another thing - you can take a quiz on this at YourMorals.org if you want to see where you and her stand, or just ask her some choice questions yourself to find out)

I've noticed repeatedly that the relationships I see that are the strongest are between two liberals, or two conservatives, and the ones where it's a liberal and a conservative tend to be short-lived and contentious. So at least in that regard, you more or less need to be oriented toward the same set of values internally, even if their expression through religious or political party affiliation are different (or the same!) externally.

Chase

Lu's picture

Genuine interest vs Looking for anything


After a strange situation with a girl I had been sleeping with, something I had never thought of came to me: when does a girl have actual interest in you, and when is she just looking for emotional reassurance, quick, good sex, or any other number of things? I feel like this girl in particular was really looking for anything fast (we are both in the military and the environment is conducive to neither relationships or quick flings) but she had just happened to have strong feelings for me after having sex. It wasn't long until she changed her mind though, and ended up losing those feelings and finding someone else. Is there a way to tell between a woman who just wants to hook up with any man she finds sexy enough, and a woman who is only interested in you? Doing so, I believe, would make for much stronger long-term relationships, rather than committing to a girl who has strong feelings now, but runs off the second your relationship has a problem. A post or response would be much appreciated. Thanks and keep up the good work!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Genuine interest vs Looking for anything

Author

Lu-

That is the question, isn't it! While we all tend to want someone for whom we are very special, the fact is, everyone is looking for others who provide some sort of value to their lives - it's just that some of the women you meet are better at making you feel like it was you they were looking for all along, while others are less skilled at this.

I had a girlfriend once who fell for me quite hard, as girlfriends tend to do, and was soft and warm and helplessly in love with me. She was an otherwise strong and accomplished and successful gal, if also very quiet, ladylike, and demure, so this seemed especially special of a connection to me. Our relationship ended quickly though... more my fault than anything... but she came into my life again a little while later, and I put her and a friend of mine together since I don't date exes and I thought my friend would be a good match for her. Well, lo and behold, my buddy and I compared notes, and she followed exactly the same processes with him that she had with me.

I've asked my more honest girlfriends and had them admit that the way they've treated me is pretty similar to the way they've treated other boyfriends. People just are who they are; the way she behaves with you, and what she wants from you, is always going to be pretty similar to the way she's behaved with previous boyfriends, and the way she'll behave with future ones, too.

The only way you can really get a girl who isn't looking for you to fill a specific role in her life (something I've always been averse to, too) is to find women who aren't looking for a man, period, and especially not YOU... when you take women as your lovers who aren't all that interested in you to begin with, that's when you get the girls who end up falling for you for you, rather than looking for you to fill a certain role in their life. Of course, that supposes you like the challenge of landing women who aren't all that into you, and don't mind the bumpy road that is an early stage relationship with a woman who thinks you're almost certainly all wrong for her... :)

Chase

Jake's picture

Perfect timing!


Great article, Chase! I actually had a few of these thoughts last night when I set up a meet with a girl this weekend. She happens to be someone I haven't seen in quite a while and I know from running into mutual friends, that she's still in a relationship (relationship security).

I've been slowly improving my conversational skills thanks to you and the other righteous dudes who write these great articles and she has made no mention of said boyfriend. I finally feel I have moved into the realm of the lovers category with her.

What Up's picture

"Special Occasions"


So Valentine's Day is tomorrow and I'd like to ask:

Should you be giving "special treatments" to women in particular days such as anniversaries, birthdays, or Valentine's Day? How differently do you or should you behave if it all? What exactly is the best course of action for these days? Is it the classic gift-giving, lovey-dovey stuff that is popularized? Or is there a certain way to work around this where you don't do anything special and the woman thinks no less of you?

Sincerely,

What up

Chase Amante's picture

Re: "Special Occasions"

Author

WP-

This response is a bit late for Valentine's this year, but check out these two articles for future occasions:

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Chase, concerning facial


Chase,
concerning facial expressions, I've got a problem :
for example, when you wrote about "cute and sexy look" you
mentioned how to do it:( playful smile, eyebrows up or down,
eyes peaking from corner of eyes ect......................)
However, when I try do the cute and sexy look, i follow the instructions
on how to do it but it just looks so weird on my face. what's the problem according to you? when you started using those expressions, did it look
good at the very beginning? Maybe is with my face or the shape of my eyes, I just don't know. I've got this problem with ALL the other expressions. Help please.

Chase Amante's picture

Facial Expressions

Author

Anon-

Hard to say over text. Sometimes though, when you're trying something new, it looks weird to you because you're not used to seeing yourself that way, or hearing your voice like that, or whatever you're trying. The field is the best teacher - I'd suggest taking your new facial expressions for a spin and trying them out meeting new girls for a week or two. Pay attention to the receptions you get and see if they're improved. If so, you're probably doing things right, but just not used to seeing your face looking that way.

Chase

Rc's picture

Frames


Hi chase

When I am talking to a girl, I find deep diving and connection building to be pretty straightforward, I think I'm good at that, but many times I find it very hard to add chase frames/sex frames to the convo.

It's like I can't find anything the girl says and throw it back to her with a sexual spin on it or a way to imply she's trying to get me. Sometimes there just seems to be no way to actually get that frame/sexual piece of humour in.

Sometimes it's do able, sometimes a girl will say something and I think ah I can put a sexual spin on that or I can make it look like she said something in order to make me like her, but not always.

My question is, how normal is this and can I get away without chase frames etc when there is just no way to add them? Just how important are they.

I always give off a sexual vibe via my body language, voice, speed etc etc so do you reckon sometimes this is enough without getting verbal to solidify your sexuality.

It's annoying because I really love adding a bit of wit/implying a girl is chasing me to a convo it's good fun and with most girls gets good reactions. But sometimes there just seems to be no way to add them.

Thanks very much chase

Chase Amante's picture

Adding in Chase Frames and Sexual Framing

Author

RC-

It's pretty normal to have some girls you just won't use any verbal sexual framing with. I suppose it comes down to whether the problem is that you can't come up with sexual innuendo, or you can but it just doesn't feel very conversation-appropriate.

Some girls just aren't very good fits for getting sexual with verbally. For these girls, keeping your vibe sexual is usually enough. If a girl is sarcastic, witty, teasing, flirty, etc., though, she's usually game for innuendo.

If it's the case that a girl's a good candidate for chase framing, for instance, but you're not coming up with anything, just reinterpret whatever she next says about herself as a ploy to get men pursuing her. e.g.,

Her: I've always wanted to ride horses.

You: I'll bet you have. [said in a sexual tone of voice]

or

Her: I'm such a whiz at baking muffins.

You: Is that what girls are doing to lure in the boys these days?

or

Her: My dream is to go help starving children in African villages.

You: No coincidence that these villages are in the same places little old ladies from Britain go for their sex tourism.

... and you're off to the races.

Chase

Troy's picture

labels


Chase

There is a great article written by you on here "Tactics Tuesdays:What Happens When You Label People (or Let Them Label You)".

I've read this article several times and to me, it makes a whole lot of sense. I've been labeled all my life without realizing it and now it shows up in my daily tasks and environments that i put myself in. Ive been doing some serious self analysis of lately and ive been spotting a lot of little things that i do wrong and which have put me on the back bence socially speaking. One thing that ive seen the most that is holding me back greatly is "Labels".

As a young boy, i can remember my mom saying repeatedly a few of these labels:

"You are a weird boy"
"You are completely stupid"
"You are crazy and a idiot
"You will never amount to anything in life"

Also, as ive been going through school, ive heard all these same phrases above about me and ive been ostrasized from ever since i knew myself. It has let to me being depressed, feeling helpless and trying to commit suicide several times.

What ive realized is that THE LABELS GIVEN TO ME FROM AN EARLY AGE TO PRESENT HAVE GROWN ON ME AND CAUSED ME TO BECOME MORE LIKE WHAT THE LABEL SAYS I AM AND WHAT THEY WANT ME TO BECOME.

I now realize that this has been stifyling my growth and if this continues, i become more like what people want me to become. One thing in the article i refered to above that stuck out to me was this anecdote

" This kind of "stick" can be useful sometimes. If you're the crazy person ranting about some opinion that nobody else shares and no one wants to listen to, you'd do well to heed the warnings of those who are labeling you an outsider, and figure out what you need to change to stop attracting that label. "

For good reasons as you stated there, it can help a whole lot when you have people around you telling you what you are doing wrong and having them as a free guide to shorten your learning curve, function as sub-mentors and assist in self-analysis when you sit down and know what was done wrong instead of bursting your brain trying to figure out alone.

Chase, my friend, i've been failing a whole lot lately to the point where i hate going out in public especially school. I feel like a TOTAL FAILURE. Girls look at me as the cute guy with not much common sense, quiet and has a weird vibe while guys at my school look at me as the stupid, mad, crazy, weird, weak and silly boy who can be easily used as teasing bait, bullyed and socially ladder climbed with little effort.

Well despite all this, ive made 4 male friends and a few acquaintances with some of their other male friends that have been by my side but of lately at school i suspect my friendship with most of them is diminishing. I've picked up on a trend that i make some friends and they are very supportive for awhile then eventually they grow tired of having me around and start spending less time around me until they eventually avoid me completely.
What ive realized lately is that the stage where my friends are starting to avoid me little by little is now starting. I hate when people come and go out of my life so what ive decided to do starting today would be to stop spending so much time around them and just socialize more with other guys and girls at school. This way, i can continuously improve without causing ostracism, but still get good criticism to see where i messed up and what i can fix.

Do you think this idea is recommendable? What can i do to prevent ostracism by my friends now when they are getting tired of me?

Back to the subject on labeling.
When someone is being labeled, they are forced into the box that has been decided for them. Well the negative boxes ive been labeled and forced to that are affecting me currently are:
-Stupid
-Mad
-Crazy
-Silly
-Weird
-Slow on the update
-Slow to learn
-
-will amount to nothing good in life
-gay

these are the labels that are holding me back from progressing. sometimes i just wish there was a magic button i could push and instantly come across as MORE NORMAL. The problem is that i got a extremely late start at 16 before i started seeing some success. As a kid, i would usually be in the school yard by myself while everyone else played together so i grew up as a loner.

Everything is not bad because even though i suck socially and with girls, ive always considered myself a gods gift to women. Lots of girls like me even though i dont yet know how to turn that into results with them. its just for me to learn the hard piece of the equation.

However, im being labeled negatively and ive realized that i actually am adopting the negative traits listed above (except being gay: that was a very offensive rumor a wile back but ive managed to almost kill that rumor).

Questions:

1) How do i combat labels when someone label me?

2) At school or wherever i am at that people see as a certain identity/label and i cannot currently change the label immediately, how do i manage to deal/live with the label?

3) My biggest concern is adopting traits that ive been labeled as example: people call me weird enough times and i become more like that label. How do i block out negative labels from reaching my sub-conscious and changing my behavior to match the label decided for me?

4) From i was a little boy my parents constantly scolded me for the slighest mishap by calling me stupid and no good (and to be honest, i actually believed it most of my life) and i acted even stupider when i look back now. what can i do to combat this label?

5) Do you know of any way i can spend time around people that see me as a negative label and still not let it affect me to become more like the label decided for me? (not that i want to spend time around people that see me negatively but it happens that i might end up having to interact with them).

6) I dont talk much naturally because of deep seated fear so ive been working on becoming more talkative since you wrote the article on "the 3 vibes:talkative, smooth and brooding" and ive been getting negative reactions. Im asking stupid questions from what people tell me and i should think before i talk. how do i think quickly and intelligently before talking and also avoid thinking while im talking and sounding stupid?

Negative labels have been altering my personality and behavior all my life and i need to combat this. overall, how do i prevent and stop labels from changing my personality. persons have also called me a really "smart" guy too and what comes to mind is your article on "Are You Smart?it Doesnt Much Matter Either Way".

What i see you write here is turning out to be really true based on my experiences. no wonder i have such deep social anxiety.

Thanks for the reply in advance.

Troy

Chase Amante's picture

Troy- I can't tell what's

Author

Troy-

I can't tell what's happening with you that's making other people dislike you, since I only have your information to go off of here and it seems you don't know yourself. The big picture view though is that when people check out it means they feel like they're losing value being around you. I suspect from your difficulty figuring out exactly what the problem is, your extremely analytical / tons of questions style, and the "people like you at first but less and less with time" thing you encounter that that's almost certainly Asperger's. I haven't dealt with that myself and am not the one to recommend strategies for fixing it, though we have had several guys on the discussion boards who have dealt with Asperger's and gone on to be pretty socially successful.

Combatting labels is down to either labelling people back, then defining the term so that it sticks to them / matches their traits, or ignoring it - pretty sure we talked about those before already. Combatting them mentally yourself is best done by getting yourself away from the people who are the sources of the labelling as much as possible, and having some other source of validation in your life instead - something that is your "real" you, that you identify with, and take pride in. Could even be a secret hobby, like music or art or writing or a sport or computer programming or a martial art. Something you do that you get progressively better at, and that those passing judgment on you cannot touch.

I don't know much about having to live with labels; I mostly have long fought these off the moment anyone tried labeling me with anything bad (if you let it fly, you let it stick, and then it just gets worse and worse), though I did go through a time from maybe fourth through sixth grade where I got labelled a lot with negative labels. For me, then, I just removed myself as much as possible from everyone else, kept very apart, and focused on reading my books. My view was, if I'm not wanted, I'm fine to go off and do my own thing. I have no need nor desire to stick around and take abuse; I'll leave, and they can abuse each other instead. As for labels affecting your subconscious, I'd recommend taking strong, continuous action that opposes the label to constantly prove to yourself and anyone who's really paying attention that you're not what they say you are. e.g., if you're called weird, go lift weights; most guys who body-build can't really be called weird. If you're called not normal, go play basketball; sports are one of the most "normal" things you can do. etc.

If you spend time with people who think ill of you and label you, it will affect you in a bad way. If you must do it, go in ready for a fight, and attack them back the moment they label you. Keep doing it until you figure out how to win in "labelling matches." Read up on moral superiority - labels are basically shaming battles. Be better at shaming them than they are at you, and you win.

As for how to be talkative successfully, personally, I spent time hanging out with people and mostly just keeping my trap shut while I listened to what they talked about, how they talked about it, how long people talked for, and the like, before I started talking myself. I'd probably recommend you do the same. Keep in mind the old saying: "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Mostly, I'd recommend just toughing it out until you're out of high school, which is just a strange place in general. Focus on working on your social skills outside of school - get a job, extracurricular activities, the like. All these things help tremendously, and let you work on yourself outside of the fishbowl.

Chase

TORNADO's picture

Will this ever end...


Hey chase. Its been quite some time since I posted due to major shifts in my life hence this would be a little long post. If you are out of time you can jump straight to my questions below.

I had a bad time with a girl for a year which apart from the obvious reason of self growth made me move to the US (Pittsburgh) from India.

That being said I had a great start. I had many girls approach me. I live with roommates, but I still could manage to get a couple of them home, which for me atleast is a big deal as I could do none of that back in India.

Recently though, I have again I guess been focusing on one girl which has left the other girls frustrated (one girl made a study date plan inspite of me telling her that I only waste time and got pissed when I dropped the bomb on her for this gal).

This "special" gal reminds me of the previous messy one I had back in India.

Like you described, I digged out a little information and yes she has two important men in her life. She misses her dad a lot and secondly her crush who is stringing her. Both are miles away from her.

That being said, all she does is whine and complain about how she is unable to cope with college (this reminded me of your negative people article).

Obviously, at this point after reading your blog for a while and my own personal experience, I concluded that this gal has friendzoned me. (She loves western guys like you and sometimes calls indian guys cute too and oflate its been difficult to move her out).

Ok my only frustration is that the previous gal back home was 2 years younger to me gave me this reason of me being older to her and like a godfather figure. This gal is 2 years older to me and says I am like a kid to her. What the F....

Coming to my questions:

1) This girl said something about me being sarcastic and defensive. Should I drop these two traits?

Saracstic situation:

Gal: Am I that bad to be alone here?
Me: Nope, ur the bombshell of this college
Girl: Ugh

Defensive:

Gal: M sorry I cant. I have so many assignments
Me: Relax gal, its not like I am gonna get you drunk and take you home to my bed
Gal: You are so defensive lol

2) I am in the US as you know. I got approached by some western women in a party when I was in NY. How do you recommend I approach western women. You always give advice to western guys on how to approach asian gals. Just wanted to know how is it for an indian guy to approach a western gal. I tried clubs but to no avail. Is it just me or are the western gals in NY a lot easier than the western gals in PA.

3) Someone advised me to use craigslist and plenty of fish. I unfortunately havent been getting any results. Do you recommend any other method? I feel I am still new to day approach although I did get a phone number of an indian gal when I commented on how I liked her bobbing her head to the radio. But nothing happened after that.

I am loving it in the US so far. Hoping things go my way soon.

Chase Amante's picture

Adaptation

Author

Tornado-

Glad to see you've made some progress, though sorry to see you slipping back to your old habits. Gotta break that stuff, man.

Comments:

  • Girls never give you real reasons when they reject you, just whatever's the most convenient. These can include you're too old, you're too young, you're my friend, I don't date [X] guys, anything. The reasons they give you are irrelevant; girls who tell you you're too old will go on to date men much older than you, and girls who tell you they only date white guys you'll see a week later with a black boyfriend. Their reasons are irrelevant. Look at where you're messing up and fix that instead

  • Telling a girl she's the bombshell of the campus is big time supplication, and a one-way ticket to the friend zone. Read this article: "How to Be an Asshole – and Become Adored by Women." Then, after you've read it, probably read it again a bunch more times until it's fully sunk in - you need this.

  • Never use the word "relax." If a girl's flipping out at you, tell her to knock it off; otherwise, just don't tell people how to feel. It makes it feel like you're trying to control them. Also, never tell people "it's not like I'm going to..." and then talk about something that describes you as chasing after them; if you joke about you chasing, you are chasing. Do the opposite and use chase frames; imply the girl is chasing you, not that you are chasing the girl. One is sexy and funny, while the other is un-fun and puts the girl on a pedestal.

  • Approaching Western girls you'll use the stuff all over this site. Start with this article, it has links to plenty more that will help: "How to Approach a Girl Wherever You Are (Easily)." As for PA girls vs. NY girls, depends on where in the state you are; Pittsburgh is a rather insular place, and except for maybe the Carnegie Mellon area doesn't get too many internationals. I'm from the Philadelphia area, and didn't know much about Pittsburgh or care about it until university, but when I went to school in the middle of the state, I suddenly discovered that people from Pittsburgh hate people from Philadelphia (people from Philadelphia don't really know anything about people from Pittsburgh, conversely, or have opinions on them). They just don't like "outsiders" all that much, it seems like to me. Philadelphia is better, though still a bit insular compared to New York, which is more metropolitan. I haven't spent much time in upstate New York though, aside from a few trips to Buffalo and Niagra, so might be more insular there than in the City.

  • Check out my guide to POF if you're going to do online. I'd recommend sticking mostly to going out in-person; takes a little while to learn, but the skills are invaluable. If you can learn on day game, do it; it's easier to switch from day game to night game if you wish to do so later than it is the reverse, and the caliber of woman you'll meet is higher by day than it is by night.

Anyway, that ought to straighten you out on some of the things you can do better at, man. Enjoy the U.S., and fix the things you can fix - you'll start seeing more and better returns, I'm sure of it!

Chase

THE_ROCK's picture

Hi TORNADO , I am from India


Hi TORNADO , I am from India and living in the USA. Previously had the same difficulties you had with girls. After reading Chase's article on becoming a romancer I changed my styling,voice etc to come across more as a man with sex appeal. This has helped me with girls in clubs Work, , POF , markets etc .Once you have established yourselves as Man with sex appeal the rest is easy . Hope this helps

Juan's picture

Moving fast


I have never been in a relationship before. I went on my first date a couple nights ago at a dance club, i knew that i may have seemed awkward at first during the date. But as the date went on i was more smooth, and suave thanks to reading the articles on this website. Anyways i tried to move fast with her, and getting closer to her,and bringing the sexual tension as well. I also told her that i wont leave without a kiss, and she then got more intimate with me. But she refused to let me kiss her and idk why because the night went so smooth and i know she likes me. I do want a relationship with her. Do you think i moved to fast? I think she didnt want me to move so fast. But i did kiss her on the cheek to try and change her mind, but with no success. Do you think i did everything right?

Chase Amante's picture

First Date

Author

Juan-

Congrats on your first date! You did fine for a first experience. If you felt like things got smoother and suaver as you went, you were probably doing very okay.

Generally speaking, for improvement:

  1. Party / nightclub dates are the least favorable kinds of dates you can do - see this article: "The Party Date: Don't Do It."

  2. Kissing in public is usually to be avoided, though when you're learning it can be worth doing just for the experience. Here's why you usually want to avoid it though: "How to Kiss Girls in Public and Have It Go Great."

  3. See these articles on running your dates more smoothly and making it through the dating process:

Follow the strategies there and see if you can set up a second date. Even if not, you've now got a date under your belt, and plenty more to come. Most importantly, remember to keep your cool - it's easy to flip out and start chasing a girl if she's a little aloof after a date. Keep your head on, and you'll have the best shot you'll get at seeing her again.

Chase

Anon33's picture

emotional reassurance and relationship security from different g


In a situation where the best guy friend is providing her emotional reassurance is this the reason it complicates one from moving from lover to boyfriend. Even though as a boyfriend and providing relationship security, her constant seeking emotional reassurance from her guy friend never gets her fully emotionally committed in the relationship. Would you say this combination never works for the boyfriend? Add to the fact that one of them may have a crush on the other.

Chase Amante's picture

Emotionally Reassuring Guy Friend

Author

Anon33-

Yeah, that's a weird one. On the one hand, that makes it a whole lot easier for you to keep her as purely a lover! On the other, if you really want to be more than that, you're going to end up feeling pretty annoyed.

I've had girls who had other men they used for emotional reassurance when we started seeing each other, and the tendency is for them to gradually let these guys go as they get deeper into a relationship with you and begin to bond with you more. The best approach seems to be just don't worry about it and keep holding up your end of the bargain as a lover, and eventually the good sex works its pairbonding magic and makes the girl start exploring more and more whether she can make you her everything and ditch these guys who don't have the direct line to her heart (via her vulva) that you do.

Chase

Anon33's picture

Completely true on being


Completely true on being lovers and it became too annoying that I spoke up too soon. More because it was so confusing that the interactions were obviously inappropriate. Things got better but eventually came back to the way it was.

What things do you consider emotional reassuring?Were any of your past girlfriends physically escalated, flirted, and emotionally attached to the emotionally reassuring guy? Or what other needs are being fulfilled here? Felt like it didn't even have a chance to become something serious or maybe I needed more patience.

Finally from your experience, what was the timeframe before the 'magic' happened and the ditching began? When it's that annoying you just can't wait for it to be over!
Thanks for all your do!

Balla's picture

Sex as the Reward


Yo chase, I was reading through the articles and two comment responses really caught my attention. It was were you said to switch up on a girl if you don't get a response, were you say to text then call and vice versa. I never even thought about that, I lost at least 10 girls not doing that, I'd just text then wait a few days then text then cut contact.

1. Why does that work with girls? Texting then calling and vice versa?
2. Why have you never told me this? (ha ha)

Then what really caught my eye was when you replied to this article about marriage in nyc or something like that. You said you have your women do stuff for you and you give them sex as a reward. I really need to apply this to my game because I think me chasing sex makes it 10x harder for me to get. I remember hearing the same advice from tariq nasheed and he said make girls do so much for you that they'll try to have sex with you to not do anymore work for you. See, this is why I only listen to you two guys, I agree with everything you both say and hearing the same good game from two different people means something. I know you say to get investment from them, like looking at the jewelry on their hand and deep diving, but how do I get them to do more?

1. How do I get girls i just met to clean my crib, do my chores, pay for my meals?

2. I know you'll say be a sexy man, but what do you say for them to do it? How do you tell a girl I want you to do such n such and have them do it?

3. And when you're in a relationship, how do you make the girl work harder than you while you sit on your ass? How'd you pull that off?

Can you answer these questions and make an article about getting girls to do things for you that they will want to fuck you just so they don't have to it anymore and that they can get rewarded from it?

Thanks playa

Chase Amante's picture

Switching Correspondence Mediums, Sex as the Reward

Author

Balla-

I think it's mentioned in one of the articles on here, though I don't recall which. If anything, I've said it a few times in comments sections, though I know those are easy to miss!

Switching correspondence styles works because it breaks any negative compliance a girl has with you. e.g., she didn't respond to your text… you text again… she remembers, "Oh right, I didn't respond to his text last time," and doesn't respond again; conversely, she didn't respond to your text… you call… she sees you calling and doesn't even think about texts, just calling, and says, "Oh! It's him. Let me talk to him," or listens to your voicemail and if your voice and phone game are tight, you can reset her attraction and get a call back / text back. There's also some chance of you picking a different medium that better suits the girl; maybe you text first, but she isn't a texter, but is a caller, and when she gets your call that's more her style and she's more comfortable with it.

Re: girls doing stuff for you, it's all about value - what is it she wants about you that she can't get from anyone else that's making her work so hard for you? Deep diving and understanding her at a level most guys don't is a very big part of that; sex is another one. The Law of Least Effort is yet another; and a big piece of the puzzle is what's in this article: "It's Not Your Investment in Her; It's Hers in You."

Getting investment is simply about escalating investment, while providing validation back based on a deep understanding of the girl, and good sex. It's also based very much on operant conditioning; you reward when she does something good, and withdraw when she does something bad. Operant conditioning trains people to follow the rules you implicitly set out fairly quickly.

I probably won't do an article expressly on getting girls to do things for you just to get you in bed, because that's a little too close to pimping girls, which is just too easily abused, especially by guys who are newer and greener. If you do the other stuff on this site, and you focus on getting good with women and really understanding them and really providing heaps of value to them, you'll reach a point where it all ties in together and you'll understand both how to do stuff like this, and how to be responsible with it, too.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

speed dating


Hello Chase

what is your opinion of speed dating? can it be seen as a good way of combing through lots of girls who are open to hooking up with a guy? You know, a combination of day game and club circumstances in which girls can be fun to talk to and sober?
or you'd say such guys who show up at such events are rather pathetic and lack their own ways? Can you think of any code of conduct to come off cool and not needy and just have fun?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: speed dating

Author

Anon-

Never have tried it myself, though I had a buddy who did once and found it to be like shooting fish in a barrel. He said the girls were only just okay, but all the other guys were terrible, and he ended up writing down four girls as "yes"es and getting all of them. I also had a time when I arrived at a nightclub just as it was opening up, and discovered a group of three really cute girls standing around with name tags on, who told me they'd been there for a networking event, but it was disappointing... a nerdy-looking guy having a drink at the bar by himself I talked to after them told me it was speed dating. The only people it looked like were having fun was a pair of portly people, also still with their name tags on, dancing out on the dance floor.

That's just two anecdotes, but if I had to go out on a limb that's probably what they're all like everywhere, I would think. Again, I'm guessing though. But if it's an accurate guess, then if your fundamentals are tight and you're an attractive guy, probably all you need to do is go, sit there, do your usual thing with girls, and you'll have the whole contingent of women there writing down your name because nobody else comes close to qualifying.

Chase

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