Reactions from Women, or Results with Women?


reactions-from-women.jpg

I intended for this to be a shorter post, since I’ve put up a few long ones in a row and I didn’t get much sleep last night as I’m still rocking a jet lag (so much for my claims to not be affected by that… it’s good though, I’m waking up early in the morning and cranking on stuff I want to work on, so my jet lag has actually made me more productive). We’ll see if I’m able to write something concise this time, just to shake things up a bit and throw everyone a curve ball. A short article from Chase? Bet you weren’t expecting that!

Well, so, I touched on reactions a bit in “Learning from Reactions: Developing Social Calibration” two months ago (to the day, actually… how about that?), where I mostly stressed how you can use reactions to learn social calibration, but also mentioned that you don’t want to make reactions too much a focus of yours. This post is going to work on explaining why that is.

This is kind of a simple topic, but it’s one almost no one ever thinks about. It’s one of those things you point out to a guy and you watch his face light up like he’s just had a small epiphany. That’s something of a favorite pastime of mine: looking for those ideas that feel simple and intuitive but that no one ever stops and considers... then making people stop and consider them.

Back in 2006, when I first met guys in the pick up community – aside from the training I took with the guy I’d personally credit as the most talented seducer I’ve ever seen, and aside from the friend and wingman I took on when I moved to Washington, DC after a year and a half of going out alone – and continuing on as I met more and more of them, I noticed them doing something I found both mystifying, and personally frustrating: they were entertaining girls.

They’d approach women high energy, be very playful and fun and lively, and do all the work. The women would sit back and enjoy as these men labored to display higher value and tell impressive stories. And the women would laugh and flirt and smile and touch the guys and act excited. And then, once the they’d done the best job they possibly could and exhausted all of their fun / interesting / entertaining stuff, the women would… drum roll… smile, tell them it was nice meeting them, and then casually walk off.

And then these guys’d call it a job well done and go do it to the next girl. They collected tons of reactions out of women, but women kept walking away, and walking away, and walking away. Success seemed like a distant goal for these guys, a land they were trying to slowly make their way towards a little bit at a time.

I tried the entertaining thing very briefly when I’d first discovered the pick up community at the end of 2005. I spent about a month using opinion openers on girls in nightclubs and trying to tell impressive stories. And they got me a lot of excited girls, but it didn’t seem like the right kind of excitement. I couldn’t put my finger on what it was at the time, but these days I can tell you what it was I was sensing, and what, apparently, a lot of guys new to meeting women don’t pick up on until much later in their seduction careers.



Going for Reactions

Sometimes I think I must have entered seduction with a stronger social intuition than most guys; and that might be partially true, but from training guys what I tend to see is that most men have social intuitions that work just fine. They just don’t listen to them.

If you point something out to a guy he wasn’t paying attention to socially before, he’ll quite often go, “Oh, yeeaahhhh, so thaaat’s why XYZ happens when I do ABC.” It clicks, he gets it, and it makes sense. The fact that it clicks shows he must have been picking up on the fact that something was amiss; he just wasn’t paying that feeling much (if any) heed, is all.

What happens when you don’t pay attention to your intuition is that you make mistakes and things go awry. That’s as true for meeting women as it is for choosing which school to attend or not getting jumped in the wrong part of town. I’m convinced most men have a little voice in the back of their heads telling them not to entertain women, but they rather ignore that voice and go on ahead with it anyway because they don’t consciously realize the error in it or can’t see any alternative.

The problem with reactions is that they feel like success. “That girl was flirting with me!” a guy will say. “She was playing with her hair like crazy!” “She couldn’t keep her hands off me!” “She made out with me in the bar!” “She was staring at me hard through our entire conversation!” Well sure, yeah, that sounds like a great night.

Whenever I hear a guy saying stuff like this now, though, my instinctive first thought is, “Okay, cool; but, did he shag her?Because if the answer is no, I’m willing to bet you that a week from now, she will totally have forgotten sitting there for an hour starting intently at him and playing with her hair. She won’t remember anything about it.

Now, disclaimer: I don’t want to say looking for reactions is bad. There do give you some indication you’re making progress, so they’re not all bad, and especially early on if you’re starting out at a beginner’s level, you need to look for positive reinforcement like reactions because it’ll probably take a little time as you work on your fundamentals before you’re able to reach a point where you’re able to start generating results with women regularly.

But the big, overall point I want to make is this: reactions from women do not equal results with women.



Reactions Do Not Equal Results

In early 2007, I was getting more bold with women and pushing for things earlier in the interaction when I thought I might be able to pull them off, and I started being surprised at some things. Women who were being attentive to me, who were playing with their hair, smiling, gazing into my eyes, who seemed for all the world to be interested in me, sometimes would refuse to move with me. And sometimes they’d even refuse me their cell phone numbers.

Later that year I also began getting bolder with girls who weren’t as openly receptive to me, and I was intrigued to note that sometimes, women who gave me no outward sign of interest would go along with me and continue letting me progress things forward despite their lack of external indication of attraction for me.

Both of these things were a little strange, but eventually I got used to them, got used to pushing things forward regardless of whether I was getting reactions or not, and targeting my actions toward generating results with women rather than reactions from women.

What did I count as results? By “results,” what I was counting was anything concrete I got from girls that progressed an interaction forwards. Hair-tossing and eyelash-batting need not apply. These days, here’s what I’d consider “results” now:

  • A girl moving with you when you invite her to move with you.
  • A girl moving to sit somewhere alone with you.
  • A girl deflecting difficult social situations – like pushy friends or needy male suitors – specifically in order to spend more time with you.
  • A girl joining you one-on-one on a date (as opposed to hanging with you at a bar or a party or with friends).
  • A girl coming home with you.
  • A girl getting intimate with you.

To me, those are results. Going for anything else is distracting you from moving the interaction ahead.

The problem with those distractions is, though… those distractions are what many men go for. Many men are aiming for getting girls to toss their hair back, or laugh, or touch them on the arm. Many men are aiming to get women flirting. Many men are aiming to get girls to grind with them on the dance floor. But that girl who’s doing those things is just as likely to walk away a minute later, because those things alone do not equal commitment to you and the interaction she’s having with you. Those things can very well simply be all in good fun.

I’ve seen lots of guys doing showy “flash” game that gets girls acting hyper and bubbly and energetic and bouncing excitedly up and down. But I’ve rarely seen those guys go home with those hyper, bubbly, energetic, bouncing girls. Usually, after the girl’s had her fill of good feelings, she rejoins her friends and bids a fond farewell to the man who was entertaining her, thanking him for a fun-filled evening.

He feels as though he’s accomplished something, because the girl seemed so happy. “I’m getting better and better at this!” he thinks to himself. “Women love me!

But because he’s basing this off of reactions, that’s what he’s training himself to get: reactions. So he gets better and better and better at getting girls hyper and bubbly and energetic and bouncing excitedly up and down. But he doesn’t really get all that much better at taking girls home and sleeping with them, because he isn’t training for that.

He isn’t training to get results. He’s training to entertain. He’s training to get reactions.

He also isn’t being sexy, he’s being fun and entertaining, and the two are very different. If your aim is to get girls flirting with you and be partying with girls and having wild dance-a-thon types of nights, you should work on being fun and entertaining first and foremost. If your aim is to take women home and get together with them and become lovers or make them your girlfriends, you should work on being warm and sexy first and foremost.

It doesn’t have to be hard. You really shouldn’t have one woman walking away after another after another like the entertainer guys do once a girl’s hit her “fun quota.” Once you start pushing hard for results and pushing to make things happen, rather than pushing to get reactions, you start getting farther along in interactions more quickly on a more regular basis. And all it takes is training yourself to get results.



Training for Results with Women

Again, reactions aren’t bad; they’re just misleading when it comes to gauging efficacy at actually getting results.

I’ll give a few examples.

In my stint as a tire salesman, sometimes a customer would seem really gung-ho and excited about tires, and then not buy them. He’d excitedly tell me he’d think about it, then take off, never to be heard from again. Other times, a customer would be totally silent as I pitched a tire to him, and I’d feel like I was talking to a wall, but then I’d tell him we could get him right in and get him done in thirty minutes and we could start right now, and he’d say, “Okay,” and voila, I’d have a sale.

I also spent a few months as a middle school and high school teacher, and something I’d see there sometimes would be kids who’d be nodding and saying, “Oh, I see,” dead serious and looking for all the world as if they totally grasped what I was talking about. But when I’d call on them to answer questions, some of them knew it, and some of them were clueless. Other kids would sit there silent as stones, not giving me any feedback at all while I lectured, but when I’d call on them, sometimes they’d prove to be more knowledgeable than the kids who were nodding so emphatically.

Reactions do not equal results. I really want to drive this home. Just because she’s flirting with you doesn’t mean you’re going to get together with her – and just because she isn’t doesn’t mean you aren’t.

The only way you train yourself up to be a guy who produces results is to continue to push for results, irrespective of reactions. Pay attention to reactions, but don’t use them as an absolute metric and instead push on anyway. We touched on this a bit in “When in Doubt, Forge Ahead”; you must get into the habit of pushing to move interactions forward no matter how a girl seems to be reacting to you. She should be the one who decides whether she wants to go along with you or not; you must be the one who offers her the option.

These days, I am so unconcerned with reactions that I do almost nothing with women that’s reaction-generating. I don’t go for flashy openers; I go for really, really chill, very under-the-radar ones. Even when I open direct, it’s very… chill and natural. I’d be thrown off if a girl reacted crazily or energetically to one of my openers, actually; I’d probably think she was a psycho.

Don’t deny a woman the opportunity to be with you simply because she doesn’t seem to be reacting the way you think a girl who’s interested should react. She might be shy, or not especially gregarious or flirtatious, or maybe she’s in her head that day, or maybe she’s behaving more conservatively because people who know her are around, or maybe she likes you a lot and is scared of messing it up if she acts too interested, or who knows what the reason is. Whatever it is, you don’t want to miss out on a cute gal who digs you simply because you were too busy looking for reactions to go get results.

All right, well, this post didn’t turn out quite as short as I’d hoped, but it’s half the length of the last one if that counts. I’ll close it out on this note: that to be the guy who gets results with women, you need to be the guy who forges ahead without much concern for reactions.

Reactions are great for training your basic social calibration and basic-level meeting-women-skills; once you hit intermediate and advanced though, you need to drop reactions and specifically target results. Once you start doing that, you’ll begin seeing a steady upward trend in your success with women, and I guarantee once you start seeing that trend, you’ll heartily agree that better results with women trump better reactions from women any day of the week.

Yours,
Chase Amante

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

Excellent post. I'd like to


Excellent post. I'd like to add my opinion of why a lot of guys prefer to be entertainers in social situatuions; its because guys don't want to come across as threatening. Society and the media go out of their way to paint real men as dangerous; therefore most men find it safer to be cute and silly rather than masculine.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Excellent post. I'd like to

Author

Hey man, great point, and one that ought not be overlooked. There's definitely a strong fear of being a threatening, dangerous male in the West that sends men scrambling for the opposite extreme to avoid that label. Good call on that one, and thanks for commenting!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

So TRUE


SOOO TRUE i play it soooo cool for this bullshit media impression that I am viewed as a potential rapist because I have a penis, but you don't get pussy points for playing it cool. I haven't.

Dr. Asian Rake David's picture

Hey Chase, Excellent article


Hey Chase,
Excellent article here, as usual.

Some allowances can be made for total beginners, though, as they may have never even gotten "reactions," let alone "results." So it would make sense that they'd get all giddy when she gets giddy over them. But yes, they should be taught early on to aim for results (most easily gauged by compliance/investment).

Always a pleasure reading your writing, my man!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Hey Chase, Excellent article

Author

David! What's up brother? Hope the New Year is treating you well these days!

Way cool to see you on here, man; appreciate the reply. For sure, beginners do often need to go off of reactions -- may be the closest thing to a metric you have to work off of when you're just starting out. Investment is a great additional results metric that I probably should've included in that list of what to look for, now that you mention it.

Great to hear from you, man; hope it's a good year for business in Singapore!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

When you're not getting reactions


I'm usually cynical about these kind of websites but I have to admit I am impressed with all the good sense you talk. I'm definitely a beginner at seduction, I'm still at school and despite my social skills, have never got anywhere with a girl. While I'm sure this is partly because I'm not meeting enough women, I often find that I'm not even getting reactions, and can struggle to keep a girl's attention for enough time to move a conversation forward. Do you have any advice?

Anonymous's picture

help


im taking your advice which is good. i over did the text messages and proclaimed my love with long messages after she didnt text back and she would reply that she was okay and i was just silly that she is in her own head she still calls me love we have been talking for about 1.5 years everything was good till now but she really wont text back and when i offer to hang out she says her phone really wasnt working but yet she says she really cares for me and misses me.. i think the radio silence should help out. i was the energtic guy but i just want to know where do i go from here? how do i fix this and when she does text back how to i go about asking for just a hangout or date like i really like her but ant trying to mess this up anymore than i have already thanks in advance.

Lithium's picture

Hidden feelings


Hey chase, thnx a million for the blog nd posts, they have really been a guide and a formula to a lot of issues guys tackle. I have this issue i need u to throw some light on nd help me out with. Therez this preety gurl i met at a place nd the conversation was going smoothly though she rarely smiled. Later on, we met her mum and i was getn along with her as well, we all hung around a bit, did a little shopping and i proceeded to head to her mumz place(The gurl doesnt live with her mum). after a bit of talking her mum began to tell me some not very nice things about her daughters life and how she wanted to help her get a better life by sending her outta the country. she did scold the gurl a little in front of me and after a while she nd the gurl had a fight nd i tried to resolvd issues but to no avail, which ended up in the gurl running home out of anger. and since then she har refused to pick my calls. Honestly i dont know where to go from here. yot advice will be most useful.

Sfguru2008's picture

Yo Chase, Excellent article.


Yo Chase,

Excellent article. I've never looked at it this way. Especially by the sentence: "Don’t deny a woman the opportunity to be with you simply because she doesn’t seem to be reacting the way you think a girl who’s interested should react".

Currently I had a first date with a woman and she gave me mixed signals like described in your other post (holding arms, eating out of 1 plate, teasing back and forth, deep diving). I was looking for indicators of interest hoping I would see the cue to advance faster. At a certain point we were talking about dancing. She rephrased "dancing" twice like implying something. I took that cue as "let's go home". And I think I screwed up there.

I drove her home and parked the car. Chit-chatting for a bit, hoping she would invite me in (I already went inside when I picked her up). In other words, I didn't charge forward but was waiting for a indication. I didn't progress forward and went home. I didn't even kiss her because during the goodbye she literally said (and I have never had this one before) when coming forward "kisses on the cheek".

Hopefully I will get a second chance to progess faster. Any tips on this? I will probably see her this weekend and want to be intimate with her by then. What I will certainly use are your "move faster, 10 minute in kiss, and don't wait for her reaction the way I think she should" advice.

Many thanks for the reply

Note: this is a socially calibrated girl. She's 30 and has game to be honest but she is fina as hell!

Anonymous's picture

Not sure if she loves me


Hi, there's this one girl i really like but i feel that she doesnt love as the same way i love her.... Well when im talking to her shes having good reactions and replies, but i always got to start conversation with her and now im starting to have no more topics to speak with her, and i feel like im loosing her right now, and I just want to know how she could get more interrested about me and that she starts talking to me more often...

Anonymous's picture

The Non-Reactive woman is my Biggest Challenge!


Great article man. I've seen some women give me reactions, and more recently, others give very little reactions to any flirting or chase-framing that I do.

So when I get reactions, I already know how respond and win. My auto-pilot takes care of this. But when I get non-reactions my mind goes blank and I have no clue to how to proceed. I have lost control, and as such, I cannot yet convert such women into a win yet...

But my issue here isn't a lack of reactions on a pickup, but lack of reactions on a first date. If I'm on a date, and I am enjoying her company and she's enjoying mine (deep-diving, teasing, humor, etc), if I then naturally start flirting and chase-framing, if I don't get any reactions, my subconscious throws up red-flags and says STOP! SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT!

But what you are saying is that some girls will like a guy so much that they don't flirt back? If so, WHY?? It could be shyness, but I've encountered some girls that don't appear to be shy still not reacting! Even though they are smiling and clearly enjoying themselves with me.

I'm trying to understand as much as I can. And so you suggested that it could be the case that a woman may like a guy so much that she doesn't want to flirt and potentially drive him away. Why would this be true?

It could also be that she is very aware of what she's doing (creating tension/playing hard-to-get). All I know is recently, I've met some women like this who aren't very outward in their reactions. Have you ever devised a "test" to see if the reason is it's a woman who's shy/afraid of reacting, or if she's basically just "testing" you to see how strong you are? Reasons can help my on-the-fly adjustment of behavior.

But the problem I have is I currently lack the inspiration to turn up the heat when women I like on a date don't flirt back. When woman elects not to react on a date, it feels like any continuation of chase-framing or flirting/giving compliments would mean I am chasing after her, being too try-hard. I already tried this line of behavior and it's not working! So now I'm clueless!

So my automatic response is to auto-reject and dial down the flirting, the chase-framing. And to set up a friend-zone vibe in my mind. When they don't react, it's just not fun, not exciting, not dangerous! But the thing is I may be walking away from some amazing women just because they aren't as exciting. (I know some girls walk away from men for this reason).

And so I need preparation ahead of time for mrs. non-reactive. This is my greatest challenge right now (since I just walk away from them). Even if I know they have great qualities, it's just that my emotional system isn't invigorated to chase them harder or keep them around when they don't react. I don't have the skills to tip the non-reactive situation into my favor. So I need to attend to this situation like a master. Perhaps you can help!

A solution could be to just tell them matter-of-factly how their lack of reaction makes me feel. I haven't tried this, but I feel like this would kill the mood with women who are already a bit nervous anyway. There is the chance that it could inspire her to change and "keep up with me" but she could also just auto-reject. Who knows? Or if she really is holding back intentionally to "test" me, then telling her this would certainly make me look weak. Like I need her permission (reactions) for me to man up and escalate! But again, assuming such women are socially adept, and they do like time spent with a me, wouldn't it be more fun to simply flirt back and give subtle clues to how they feel? You know to inspire me to escalate, since that's what they really want anyway? Maybe some of these women just like being dominated and will only do things with guys they like WHO also escalates and dominates without any help or clues from her at all. You know since she has abundance and can find another more debonair chap who will escalate regardless.

So maybe the solution really is like what you said, not to call them out but instead move things forward anyway pushing for results, touch them, pull them close, kiss them, invite them home, do what the heck I want (with respect of course), and not worry about rejection. But currently, for me it's soooooo hard to. I just feel out-of-place escalating on a woman that doesn't respond flirtatiously at ALL to my charms. I get an icky feeling, almost like rape if I would escalate on this woman. Maybe I'm too nice! But I feel like I'm missing some piece of information/conditioning on the male-female dynamic. Any suggestions?

But maybe it's like you say, try regardless of reactions and if she says stop, then stop. And don't equate her lack-of-reactions to meaning "stop, and don't ever escalate on me!" It takes a strong, debonair chap to do this. To not care about reactions (which for me currently are like a go-ahead signal). So this can potentially be the ultimate test of masculinity! If this is true, and certain women intentionally don't respond to flirtation just to see what I will do...then these women are good!!!!!! But I strive to be better!!!!!

Anonymous 's picture

We had fun, you did everything right. Something didn't click


Chase,

I've been reading much of your lessons today having stumbled upon your website by accident. I find your advise quite logical and enlightening. Here's my dilemma: I met this gorgeous russian girl through Match.com in early January. She is 34 with a 14 year old daughter. I am 45, never married, no kids. She has been in the US for seven years. We texted frequently and had phone conversations which seemed to go very well. The subject of sex was even broached during this time but I kept it cool. We both admitted to a having a connection right away.

We met for drinks about two weeks after first making contact via Match.com. I was nervous and I believe she was too but after a couple of glasses of wine I loosened up. I am very observant to body language and noticed that she faced me while we talked and she had touched my leg a couple times during the hour long meeting. I forged ahead with this signal and became more relaxed as the conversation progressed. The restaurant was closing so we had to leave. Just before leaving I gave her a small box of truffles which seemed to impress her. When we got to the parking lot I made my move to kiss her. We kissed passionately for a couple of minutes before she pulled away and said she had to go. On her way home she called me and we talked for a few minutes more.

Following this first "date" we continued texting daily. She would text me good morning and goodnight. This made me feel like she really liked me. We talked on the phone on her commute to work. She has a very strong russian accent so the conversations were difficult to understand at times. We arranged for a second date at an upscale, romantic restaurant. We talked, drank lots of wine and seemingly had a great time. When asked, she said the date was at least an 8.5 on a scale from 1-10. She is incredibly beautiful and sexy but she does have a sarcastic and very emotional personality. After dinner we made out in the parking lot with lots of kissing and my caressing her sexy torso. I wanted to have sex with her that night but it didn't happen. I'm not sure if I should have pushed the envelope further? I didn't want to come across too aggressive.

Things still progressed after that night...texting and talking on the phone. I did see some unattractive personality traits begin to appear. One time I asked her on the phone to call me to say goodnight when she got into bed and she replied that she hadn't seen her daughter all day and that I'm not a priority. This made me mad but I kept my cool.

For our third and fourth date I took her to see two live performances. She is very much into live performances. I've invested quite a bit of time and money with this girl so far, but still no intimacy. An interesting note: after the fourth date concert we drove to get something to eat. She mentioned out of nowhere that her best friend was having boyfriend problems and that she would happily buy her a vibrator to help her get over him. She then mentioned that her best friend's boyfriend also wanted to go to a swinger's club. In your opinion, was this a subtle hint that she wanted me to take her to a swingers club or was it just conversation??

After the forth date is when everything turned to crap. Her texts were much more infrequent and cold. I asked her what was wrong and she texted me that she would talk to me after work however, she never did. I played it cool and did not text her for a week. By the way, this was during the week of Valentines Day.

After a week of no communication, I texted her. I was very, very pissed off that she would just ignore me after my spending so much time and money on her and my being a gentleman whenever we were together. However, I kept my emotions at bay and simply asked what was wrong. She said we had fun and that I did everything right but something just didn't click. She couldn't explain beyond that. She said we could be friends for now if that would work for me.

I asked her if she would allow me to take her out again to drink some souvenir wine we had gotten from the last concert I had taken her to. She replied "we can do that."

A month went by without a word from her. I refrained from texting her because I felt very rejected and that she no longer had any interest in me, so why bother texting her? I finally broke down and texted her last week. I asked her if she had any plans for the upcoming Saturday as I wanted to drive to the keys and asked her if she'd like to go. She texted me back within a couple of minutes saying she had to work. She then said "first of all hi, how r u :-)" I was quite surprised to hear back from her so quickly after a month of silence. She said she couldn't leave for a whole day because of her teenage daughter. Not sure if I believe her excuse. I would think she could have someone watch her daughter for a day, but whatever. I told her to bring her daughter along but she does not want to introduce her to men until needed.

Unfortunately, I'm really crazy about this girl and am wondering and hoping if there is anything I can do to turn this around and get her to be interested in me again??? I feel there is hope considering she answered my text last week. She has not texted me and I have not texted her since because I'm not sure of my next move and I don't want to chase someone who has no interests in me. Call it stubborn pride. Also, because she is russian I'm wondering if cultural differences are into play as to what to do next.

Please tell me if there is any hope and if there is hope are my chances good or poor that I can turn this around and what I should do to make it happen???

Thank you!!!

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