Nice People Need Hard Rules


I was talking to a friend last night who'd been railroaded by a cluster B girlfriend of his - a girl with borderline personality disorder (he hadn't realized until years in), which, if you're not familiar with it, is a real crazy-making personality profile that makes the affected individual completely mistrusting of everyone, causing her to undermine her long-term relationships by focusing on getting concession after concession after concession, wearing down the people around her and inflicting a reverse-winner effect on them that depletes their testosterone, willpower, and energy reserves and causes them to crash emotionally.

nice people hard rules

The silver lining of being around people like this, though, is it makes you realize exactly where your weaknesses are: it shows you the chinks in your armor that others can use to gain leverage over you, to whittle you down, and to take control of you in ways you didn't realize you could be controlled.

I've gone through it, and it's been among the most educational periods of my life - because what was previously a vague awareness that you were just a little "too nice", a bit too much of a softy, and a little too much of a pushover, suddenly gets thrust into focus as exactly how dangerous small weaknesses like these can be around people determined to get things from you.

And, eventually, it leads you to the ultimate realization that nice people need hard rules.


nice people hard rules

I was never a "nice guy." I wasn't a pushover with women who let them walk all over him and friend zone him. Even when I sucked with girls, if we weren't going on dates or more, and it wasn't moving forward, I punted and went and did something more interesting with my life instead.

However, for a long time I was aware that I had a weakness of not knowing how to deal with especially pushy people. Usually I just steered clear of them altogether, because I knew I had a weakness here; the few times I went against my better judgment, I'd invariably end up getting burned. That only reinforced the need to create distance with people like this.

I hadn't grown up around them. I hadn't been exposed to people like that at all throughout most of my life. And when I met them, I felt like a bunny rabbit crashing into a rhinoceros. It wasn't very pleasant.

After I graduated from university, I began to surround myself with increasingly aggressive, pushy people, because I wanted to learn from them:

  • How were they so certain in pushing for (sometimes crazy) things?
  • What were the specific techniques they used to GET these things?
  • How did they convince other people to give them what they wanted?
  • What did they do if things didn't go their ways at first?
  • How did they deal with various kinds of resistance?
  • What MADE them so pushy and demanding?

... but I still kept clear of the real hardcore manipulators.

The ones I could just tell when I met them that they were pulling strings and making people dance like puppets around them. I knew I was going to get slammed even just letting them into my life a little bit.

And one day I sat down to figure out why.


Emotional Profiles and Hazy Boundaries

One of the things I realized about myself was that most of my decisions were made by following my gut. Very few of my decisions were rule-based "I should do X in Y situation because I know this leads to Z, while NOT doing X leads to ABC bad thing" decisions.

Most of them were just, "Hmm, I don't know... okay - let's do that, I guess."

But when I looked at things I was good at, all of those decisions were made with clarity and certainty. I was confident, sure, and very decisive.

So, to stay safe, I mostly kept myself around people I knew would not try to take advantage of me, and who had similar moral / ethical frameworks that I did:

  • They believed in building for the long-term over getting in the short-term
  • They valued loyalty and friendship over wins, money, and immediate gains
  • They experienced guilt, remorse, and weren't the types to screw people over

... and I had a few low- / no-empathy people around me, but they were not "extractor" types, and were, rather, more long-term-focused low-empathy people who were professional, upwardly mobile, and ambitious, as opposed to scrapers and clawers who viewed everyone as either a mark or a competitor.

I noticed that during the occasions when I came into contact with the scrapers and clawers, I'd always come out with scrape and claw marks, because they had very clear ideas about what they wanted from me... but I did not have clear ideas about what I wanted from them.

I'd be there, thinking "Maybe I can learn something from this person..." and they'd be there trying to work themselves into a chink in my armor and find a way to start sucking my time, money, or energy out.

They just worked differently than I did... thought differently... saw the world differently.

And until I understood it, and built up some reference points around it, I knew I was always going to fear it, and be vulnerable to it - perhaps at times in the future when would be least convenient for me, too.


Rules: The Moats and Fortifications Around Your Castle Walls

Having rules that you strongly believe in, and ferociously adhere to, protects you from those who would use emotions to sway and control you.

Everyone around you is using emotions to sway and control you:

  • Your family
  • Your friends
  • Your girlfriend
  • Your teachers
  • Your bosses
  • Your priest
  • Your colleagues
  • Some girl you meet at a bar
  • The girl who's friend zoned you
  • The girl who's chasing after you

Heck, every article you read on the Internet - including this one, and every other one from me - is designed consciously or subconsciously to push at least a few of your emotional buttons.

This is because emotions are a shortcut to another person's decision making.

The decisions you make are truly made unconsciously. One of the more Twilight Zone-like findings of modern neuroscience has been that your conscious mind does not become aware of a decision you've made until as much as 7 seconds after the decision is actually made:


What you think of as "you" (your consciousness) is, in fact, little more than observer and interpreter of what the REAL "you" (all those other cells in your brain) is doing.

And conscious you doesn't have a very good grasp on how the REAL decision maker in your head (subconscious you) is making its decisions.

The fact is, subconscious you is very influenced by emotional arguments - especially ones it doesn't have good refutations for, or solid evidence or emotional arguments against.

Subconscious you is also easily preyed upon by those who know how to hack emotions, wear down resistance, and create doubt and uncertainty.

Of course, if you're in a clearly-bad-for-you situation, you can always just leave (and probably will, or probably will not put yourself into that situation in the first place).

However... if you're a little bit ambivalent about it... if you're a little bit unsure... that opens up the door for someone with more solid frame control to come in and use that little bit of uncertainty as a wedge to get in and direct your decision making in a specific direction.

And because when that happens you effectively end up relinquishing control of your decision making to another individual, if you're not being extremely careful about whom you relinquish control of your mind and decisions to, and you don't have hard rules in place to override your emotions and protect you from letting the wrong person hijack your brain, you can quickly end up with a pillaging horde walking right in through the front gates of the castle that is your mind and life, and walking back out again with well nigh anything it wants.


nice people hard rules

Realizing that you need rules to keep you from being taking advantage of by the completely unscrupulous is one thing; recognizing what those rules are, and, then, believing in them enough that you adhere to them no matter what, are something else.

Sometimes people who are looking to take advantage of you are awkward strangers you get a bad vibe from, and you know to stay away... sure. That happens. Just listen to your gut here.

But more often, they're people who come across as very charismatic... charming... worldly. They take an authority-figure like "don't worry, I'll look out for you" vibe, or, alternately, a "oh woe is me, life is so hard, won't somebody please just save me?" vibe - either of which can lower your defenses (depending on your emotional disposition), and get you thinking of this person as either a protector, or someone in need of protecting.

Then, look out - you've just trusted the care of your life and your resources to someone who wants to take and has about as much concern for your future well-being as he does his worst enemy's, or you've taken on a new "project" to help and save, who is, in fact, a bottomless pit of temporal, financial, and emotional neediness.

And then you, my noble friend, are thoroughly hoodwinked.


It's Not Easy Sticking to Rules

nice people hard rulesThe major problem with hard rules is that if you haven't been burned repeatedly before, it's hard to really adopt rules like this. Knowing what rules to follow is useful; but putting your foot down hard and refusing to budge from them takes a certain amount of past pain to motivate you.

Otherwise, you're likely to experience the doubts that those who want you to do as they say are likely to inspire you in you; you'll say "Well, I know usually you're supposed to follow this rule, but this guy is my friend" or, "Yeah, but she's my girlfriend; SHE certainly wouldn't..."

The problem with this is that, as Drexel pointed out in his article on cluster B disordered women, the kind of people who will do this to you do NOT think like you do. They're not following the same value system.

And that's largely because of a lack of empathy.

So, while you may be thinking, "Okay, well, if *I* did this, I'd feel a moral obligation to make sure X; therefore, I think it's safe taking Y risk that my friend is pushing me to take, because he'll make sure if he puts me in a bad situation that he helps to pull me out."

Someone who's low empathy, though, if you end up in a bad situation, it doesn't matter how you end up there - if you aren't useful to her, even if she's responsible for you ending up in stuck in the quicksand, she's just going to leave you there, disgusted at your weakness and uselessness, or totally having forgotten about your plight and happily having moved off in hot pursuit of her next emotional, sexual, or financial payday.

Crazy people don't care if you're in a bad place because they put you there. The fact that you're in a bad place and need a lot of help is just off-putting, or makes you boring... now it's time for them to move on and find someone more useful and interesting to take your place.

However, should you get yourself sorted, they'll be more than happy to come back and act as if nothing's ever happened and you were always #1 to them.

People who will take advantage of the empathy you have and they lack are not playing by the same rules as you are... even if they will try very hard to appeal specifically to your empathy harder than anyone else, using arguments that work with you that'd never work with them in a million years because you and they are on a one-way street.

Here's how you know if you should abandon rules or not:

  • If it feels like something is wrong - it is

  • If a friend is pushing you into something you would not push someone else into

  • If there is clear gain to the other person from you complying, even if he/she repeatedly shifts the spotlight away from this and/or adopts moral indignation if you bring it up ("How could you THINK such a thing?")

  • If you are being constantly reminded of good deeds and how good this person is for your life (if you have to say it, it isn't true; if she's working hard to remind you that she's a good thing for you, she probably thinks/knows she's the opposite)

  • If he is so intent on winning no matter what that at no point does he ever back off completely... he must get a win, no matter how small

If you see any of these signs, break out the rules, no matter how close to a person you feel or how awesome he or she seems.

It's very different between, say, a friend inviting you to go skydiving, which scares the heck out of you but you know is good for you and you know the friend has no ulterior motive, and a friend telling you to invest a lot of money that you don't have with him because he's a brilliant businessman (Look! Here's all the evidence!) and you'll be a fool if you miss out on this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity - and he won't listen to your objections or give you any kind of reprieve.


The Hard Rules

Here are the rules I've learned to follow, religiously, with ALL people, no matter how wonderful they are or how close we are:

  1. Never make a remotely important decision tired. When you're tired, run down, exhausted, or burned out, and someone's pushing hard for you to make a decision, refuse and leave. "Sorry, I don't make decisions when I'm tired," you can say. Then refuse ALL efforts to get you to decide on ANYTHING.

    People who are skilled at finding the chinks in your armor will look for the smallest hole - they'll just try to get you to agree to the tiniest thing they can ("Okay - well, just agree that you're going to think about this hard tonight and have an answer for me tomorrow, okay?"), and use that as leverage to open the discussion back up into driving toward getting what they want ASAP. Give them no satisfaction, no closure, and no agreement - you make NO decisions when tired... none. No exceptions. Sorry. Come back tomorrow and if I'm rested we can talk.

  2. Never agree to last-minute changes without taking things back to square one. One of the most insidious negotiation tactics I've encountered is people like this waiting until a deal has just been made, the contract's being written up, and everyone's in signing mode, and then they ask to slide in one last term - often something highly favorable to them, and highly not to everybody else. The instant anyone does this, throw everything out and go right back to square one. Start all over again.

    The individual in question is counting on you being tired of haggling and ready to get it over with to just fold and accept this new term. Instead, you must throw out the existing agreement and go right back to negotiation, from the top, as if no agreement had been reached at all. Or, better yet, recognize that someone doing this is far more interested in putting together a win-lose agreement than a win-win one, and just call the whole thing off.

  3. Use time limits. Whether picking up a girl for that night, going on a date, or negotiating an agreement, anything where you are trying to achieve a certain outcome with people who may or may not be interested in achieving the same outcome, I recommend you use time limits to prevent yourself getting dragged into a war of attrition, which is usually favorable territory for practiced manipulators. Someone who's good at bending others to his will is very careful about always staying on the offensive, which is mentally taxing to the opponent, but has few cognitive costs to him.

    It works exactly the same way with girls who are "not sure" about you much of the time, too - some women who really want you as just friends or biding your time in the boyfriend prospect bin while they date around with more sexually appealing options will deliberately slow things down and seed confusion and doubt to trip up your progress toward a sexual relationship and put you into the defensive position of trying to make sure they "like" you (rather than trying to make tangible forward progress with them).

    Instead, get in the habit of having time limits in mind for all important things you do, e.g.:

    • Move a girl within 5 to 10 minutes of talking to her

    • If you're going for phone numbers, grab these fast, then move on

    • Kiss her within 10 minutes of getting her home alone with you

    • In a contract negotiation, have a one-hour time limit, let the other party know it, and at one hour EXACTLY, pick up and leave, no matter how "close" you seem to be - you can resume it the next day and take another crack at it (or not, if you don't really care)

    ... essentially, anything where there's any risk of bad things befalling you by letting your time be wasted and dragged out, use time limits, and be non-negotiable on them. People who benefit from delaying and foot-dragging and slowing you down are not people with the same end goal in mind as you - and they're not the ones you want to be spending your time on. Give them a time limit to get with the program, and bounce if they won't.

  4. Toss emotions and focus solely on results. Your emotions will lead you down the garden path much of the time, by telling you it feels like something is "close" or "good", and therefore it must be this. That's how you end up in situations where you're caught up on some girl you can't stop thinking about for far too long, despite the lack of tangible progress, and how you end up with people who are value suckers around you who keep trying to tell you what great additions they are to your life, despite the lack of tangible gains.

    You need to have an idea about what "tangible progress" and "tangible gains" look like FIRST, of course. If your idea about women's sexuality is one of "girls will only have sex after extended, 6-month-long courtship periods, and only with men they think are great guys who they trust completely and know would never hurt them", it's understandable why you'd be willing to stay on the hook not getting anything for a long chunk of time.

    You must be focused on results, but if you have a poor mental model about how something really works, what it takes to get results, and what those results will look like when you have them, you'll need to spend some time studying the thing first to learn this, before you're able to know what results to expect, and demand them.

  5. Don't suffer projection. One of the most confusing and bizarre things people like this will do is project themselves onto you. Because they lack any real empathy, they figure that their disadvantages are others' disadvantages, too: they expect that even when you protest you're telling the truth, you must have some ulterior motive, and that it must be every bit as difficult for you to get inside of their and others' heads as it is for them - that the world must be as confusing and nonsensical a place for you as it is for them.

    A major reason why empathetic people get caught in bizarro land with unempathetic people is that they try very hard to see the world through the unempathetic person's eyes, and the world seen through the eyes of an unempathetic person is a very crazy, upside-down, impossible-to-understand place full of cruel, heartless people whose plans cannot be fully understood, but rather only reverse-engineered as best possible, yet who no doubt mean to use the unempathetic person, and thus must be used themselves before their evil plans can be hatched. An unempathetic person basically views himself in a constant race to use others before they use him - a sad result of projecting his own manipulative tendencies onto others that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as he turns friends into enemies again and again.

    The moment someone begins accusing you of things you know are not true, get very suspicious - it's very often projection.

    And projection is always a very bad sign. Call it out when you see it - then get away from the person who's guilty of it.

  6. Help and "save" people by giving them things to do - not by doing them yourself. When you're high in empathy, it's easy to fall into the trap of trying to be the savior, and lift heavy boulders and move mountains for those poor suffering souls around you. The needy and the unscrupulous will use this tendency of yours to enslave you to them, constantly suffering, and constantly in need of your work to make their lives better. You will never be free of them, and they will never be "saved."

    There's a line at the start of the movie The Incredibles about this; Mr. Incredible is opining on the fact that every time he saves the world, it falls into danger again - sometimes, he says, he'd like it to "just stay saved." Yet, we know this isn't true - he needs to be a hero every bit as much as the world needs to be saved.

    If you want to be a hero, that's noble; but the only sensible way to do it is to give people things to do, and tell them to go do it. You cannot FORCE someone to lead a better life. You cannot live her life for her. You can only give her tools, and help her come up with goals, and after that, it's got to be on her. If you use this way of helping people, you can help as many people as need your help, without burning yourself out, because you're just providing the insight, and they are doing the work. If you try to do all the backbreaking work yourself though, the only thing you'll do is break your back. She will continue to need saving, even after you've give it everything you've got.

  7. When all else fails, replace - don't chase. We talked about this rule quite extensively here: "I Don’t Chase 'Em, I Replace 'Em."


Making Exceptions

So - when should you make exceptions to your hard rules?

Never. Under no circumstances. For no one.

Why? Aren't there exceptions to all rules? Certain people to let across the bridge and over the moat?

nice people hard rules

Okay, first, understand this: no rule is perfect. And if you've reached a point where you don't need a rule, you can throw any one specific rule out.

For example, in Cody's article "How to Take Girls Home with You", he discusses a very slow seduction process whilst alone at home with the girl - something several other of my friends employ as well. Cody most definitely does NOT follow any time limits that say he must kiss a girl within 10 minutes of bringing her home - because he doesn't need them.

I'd wager he probably still has some subconscious time limits, like, "Start playing with her in bed within 30 seconds of climbing in with her," or something like that. Whatever his rules are, they're adjusted for what he needs.

However, when you have rules - until you throw a given rule out altogether (in order to adopt another approach you've decided might be more effective), you cannot violate them.

Why not? Because the people who push, ask, compel, and inspire you to violate these rules are almost always the very people you have these rules in place to protect you from.

That's right - the same people you're using these rules to guard against are the ones who make you feel like you don't need to use these rules with them.

Therefore, no exceptions. Even if you want to because you feel bad for the person, or because he or she is such a great [whatever]. Find another solution that doesn't involve you violating one of your rules instead.

You can throw a rule out if it no longer works, or if you want to try something different.

But make sure that's a logical choice made freely and independently, and not one made under the pushing and prompting of someone who wants to make you think your rules are silly... and anyway, hey, come on, we're great together! We don't need those rules!

There's a reason you need them if you're an empathetic person - and it's to protect yourself against the people who want to break down your defenses and rob you of whatever value of yours they see and covet.


How Much Protection Do Good Rules Offer?

The right rules, religiously adhered to, can offer you a lot of protection from people looking to use you as their personal handkerchiefs, ATMs, or gofers. The better your rules are and the more strictly you follow them, the more you'll find you're able to be around these people without being sucked into the black hole.

That said, do not underestimate people who are looking for the chinks in your armor. If someone is determined enough, unless you are exceptionally experienced with everything she's doing and are constantly five steps ahead, sooner or later she's going to find something you haven't seen before and use it as her "in".

And once she's in, she can start whittling away at you... a little bit at a time... a little bit at a time... until there's not a whole lot left.

Get good rules in place, and follow them unerringly.

Even still, when you find yourself around people you can tell use others around them without a shred of remorse, start creating some distance - because no matter how good you are, the closer you are to them, the more you are always in their sights as a big, juicy target - just as soon as they can find a way to get to you.

A final caveat, before I send you away from this article all paranoid and depressed:

Most people are not like this.

Most are good, ordinary, normal, empathetic people, who feel bad about hurting other people and will not do so.

Your hard rules are simply there to protect you from the people who are like this. They're few and far between, but they've got a sting that hurts.

Make sure you carry around some antivenin.

Always,
Chase

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Comments

Danny's picture

Preselection, and Implicit Value (Pg 126 on your ebook)


Dear Chase,

I have a question on your ebook. It's a topic on preselection and Implicit Values. First, thank you very much for responding my question on "Should I tell a girl that I am virgin?" in the previous post. Yeah...you are correct, it will make the girl think I am not preselected by other women if I tell her b/c she would think "Why wouldn't other women want u" etc.

In that case, how about telling girls about your EX-gf (Or imaginary Ex-gf) then? Of course, we are NOT gonna say it explicitly, which will make it sounds like we are bragging. We need to MAKE IT SUBTLE and turn it into implicit values like what your ebook said.

Is it okay to do things like this:
1] Telling lies & say you have multiple Ex-gf and give good reasons for break up.
Ex): My ex-gf was an international student from Japan, she was my my language buddy. But she has to go back to Jap. Another ex of mine was from Korea, she taught me lots of Korean Cultures, but too bad I took a job at Seattle and she had to go back to Korea. Sometimes, it's suck to meet the right people in the wrong condition.

2] Tell your wing-women to flirt with you on Facebook Message intentionally and let the target see it. Of course, treat the wing-women lunch or dinner afterward, lol. In the FB public message board, those wingwomen need to chase u and flirt with you and you need to act like you are pushing them away.

I remember in one of your articles, you mentioned that you cropped a picture that have you and a girl in it. You intentionally cropped the girls out, but leave a subtle hints such as her arm or her hair. Your intent is to show you are taking picture with a girl, but no one can see that girl's face.

What's your thoughts, Chase?

Again! Thank you very much for everything. Your ebook is amazing, worth the $$ and I am still digesting right now.

Chase Amante's picture

Past Relationships

Author

Danny-

Glad you're enjoying the book!

I'm not personally a fan of talking about previous relationships, as I've always felt that this is just too much communication that you are a "relationship guy" - e.g., you're a guy who "does" long-term relationships. At that point, you're now fighting the boyfriend designation. It also feels a little too anti-intrigue to me; instead of her wondering something like, "Hmm... might he have a girlfriend RIGHT NOW?" she thinks, "Oh, okay; he USED to have a girlfriend, but now he's single; just like every other guy."

However, I know plenty of guys who like talking about exes, and I've seen plenty of guys do it and still succeed at picking girls up and getting them into bed. So, you can do it - it seems to be most useful if you're an "out there" character who needs to be brought a little more down-to-Earth for her to feel more comfortable with you / feel you are attainable.

If you're going to do it, I wouldn't reel them off in a list; maybe mention one only, if it's relevant to the conversation. As with anything, use baiting, and let her draw out information from you if she wants to know it (e.g., why you and the girl are no longer together).

I'm not sure how you're using Facebook - sounds like some kind of group messaging system? - so can't really say there... it doesn't sound like anything Facebook had back when I was using it (2006 to 2010). If flirting there is something girls do normally anyway and it won't look odd or out of place, you might try this; if it isn't, and is going to look strange or contrived, just find some other way to build preselection instead (have girls post pictures with you, post on your wall, etc.).

Chase

V's picture

Are you your past?


Hey chase, its freaking crazy, I haven't been on here for like a week and I was just thinking about people who I thought were my friends that took advantage of me and I want to get revenge on. Anyway, I've been burned so much before that I can sense when someone is trying to do me wrong in any situation.

I just want to share a little of my story with you and I wanted to ask some questions.

The thing im dealing with now is getting over the past and what I went through. I was raised by females and my mother is very empathetic, it rubbed off on me and growing up kids were nice to me and everything was laughs smiles and good times, until when I got older people became evil and I never knew how to deal with it because I was new to this way of being treated, people would always try to mess with me but I had to stop it, because I knew if it would continue it would never stop, I lost countless friends because they took advantage of me. My empathy was strong and I thought everyone was my friend, no one guided me on not trusting people and standing up for myself, I had to learn it on my own the hard way.

People told me a few times in the past that I was soft and I was too nice, but I couldn't help it, I wasn't around people that were cold, I was around people who treated me well and I treated them the same. So I got older and colder from all the experiences under my belt, and now im viewed as a badass, don't mess with me guy, im not trying to be a tough guy or gangster, I don't want people to be afraid of me like they are now, it's just after all the bullshit it changes you and you realize you can't be all laughs and smiles or else people will try to fuck with you and think you're soft.

I still laugh and smile, but im mostly a cold angry gruff edgy intimidating person, im grown now and don't have time for the bullshit and my attitude is don't fuck with me or im fucking you up.

1. I just wanted to know are you your past? Like I never used to be so edgy and rough, I use to be all smiles and nice, my past changed me.

Basically what im saying is, I know you can reinvent yourself, because this is what this site is all about, I feel like people will think im being a try hard, since I was never like that before. Am I my past? Or am I my present?

2. I think about people who did my wrong in the past and I want to beat them up and make them feel like little bitches for fucking with me. I wanted to know how can I solve this problem of me wanting to get revenge? I don't want to have these negative feelings that are so strong.

3. How can I get revenge?

Thank you

Anonymous's picture

You need to step past your


You need to step past your past and program your own future (meta-programming: thinking of thinking of thinking....) Recognize your cognitive process that you go through when these thoughts arise, and realize two things:

1. It doesn't matter. Nothing matters. All is folly. Think of your death if you want clarity. If you died tonight, would you realize the futility in those thoughts? If so, stop. Meditate. The only reason one thinks of revenge is because we've learned to think things are important. It is not. We are not important. That leads me to my second point:

2. We are just specks of dust against the backdrop of infinity. We are all the same, yet we are all alone. Don't believe me? Look into quantum physics. We are energy and the only thing keeping this 'reality' together is our awareness, both collectively and individually, but therein lies the root of all problems. Look into the 8 circuit model of consciousness and really think about it in relation to your interactions. Understanding how your brain biochemistry works and that is separate from your thinking and feeling (emotions), but intricately tied together, will allow you to start thinking on a meta-programming level.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Are you your past?

Author

V-

Thoughtful response from Anonymous. A few additional thoughts:

People view you through the lens of precedent: the precedent you've set with them, and what you've allowed them to get away with or not before. If you want to change yourself, it's always easiest building new social circles or starting from a new town. I'd probably suggest beginning the change with your old circles - you'll face the most resistance there, and be forced to really fight through the resistance to get the changes in place, which makes them ironclad - then, once you feel fairly certain you've progressed, start building up new circles (if you start building new circles before you make any changes, you're liable to end up with the same old precedent, just with new people - change takes time before it becomes real).

I have a note down for an article on street smarts - I think that was originally from you, too, V. So yeah - avoiding people trying to target you as a mark of any kind will be a part of that, no doubt.

People telling you to stop acting - just ignore them. If they're very persistent, be relaxed about it, and say, "Just chill, dude. It's a personal development program. It's all the rage. You ain't always gonna be gangsta forever, are you?" and let them think of you as some silly dude on some personal improvement kick and leave you alone about it - better to have them every now and then say something like, "Man, you still doing that X thing?" than them consistently calling you fake. And read this article:

As for wanting revenge - beating people up is petty. Leave them in your dust. Get focused on upgrading your life so much that 10 years from now they'll be looking up at you from where they are (probably the same place they are right now), wondering how you got to where you are, and thinking, "Damn, that man is lucky. How'd he do that?"

Chase

V's picture

This article is kinda different than I thought


This is a great article, but I thought it would include more things, like not to laugh or smile to much or they'll think you're soft. Don't act this way or whatever. I guess this is more of a mental side of it. Do you think you can make a physical side article telling us what actions we should do and not do so people will not try to take advantage of us or pick on us?

And how so you stand up for yourself and beat the fear?

Thank you

V's picture

I forgot!


My bad chase one more thing, what do I have as a comeback when people say, " stop acting that way, you know that's not you you're being fake" for when they see the new me, what's a good comeback for that?

Jonas's picture

What to do, after I state my rule outloud


Hmm, now I wonder if I am not this person. But my analysis tells me, I do it with people I invested a lot while they did a little. Because my judgement in this area is really poor. So I expect them to see the imbalance, therefore them doing something for me and if they do not I get.. "different" with them. Quite shocking realization actually :-/

The article was quite well structered but I miss one thing - what do I do after I say that "this is my rule, deal with it" kind of line, what topics do I bring up? If it is a girl I am seducing, am just friends with, or a guy. Or should I just wait for them to reengage? I do not want them to start thiking like I in opposition to THEM but only to what they are saying or offering. Which is based on what happens after the encounter. I understand that if they start talking about something ok, I should be warmer to show them my good face and vice versa.

Jonas

Chase Amante's picture

Re: What to do, after I state my rule outloud

Author

Jonas-

When you explicitly state "This is my rule - I don't break it, sorry", it's either going to come after you've more politely and obliquely tried to say "no" or take the conversation another direction, OR it's going to come because someone is hitting you with something you have zero interest in or patience for dealing with.

At that point, s/he's either going to respect your limits, or not. If so (any normal / reasonable person), you'll get a, "Okay, sorry, let's not go there," and then a complete topic change.

If the other person's a bulldog who wants what he wants, you'll get protests or efforts to break your rule - in which case, you'll have to excuse yourself, "Hey, sorry, that's my rule, I don't break it, and it seems like they only way you see to move forward is me breaking it, so it's time for me to leave," and then get out, because at that point it's a war of attrition - you're the rock, he's the lathe. All you can do is sit there and cling to your rule while he works to wear you down. Instead, just get out.

The final option to be aware of is the person who sidesteps the rule and says "Let's find another way." Sometimes this is someone who will work with respect to your rules to help you get what both of you want; other times, it's someone trying to break your rule anyway, only without explicitly saying so and by rewording her attempts to do so. Be mindful of what she's asking for - is it really another path, or is it just a more subtle violation of your rule? If it's the latter, restate your rule, say "Sorry", break things off, and leave.

Chase

Y's picture

Rules


Profound piece Chase. My personal development journey went to a whole new level when I accepted the subconscious to conscious decision making as a first principle to how we all work. A hard fact to digest at first, but when it really sinks in the importance of rule based approaches like yours for emotionally weakened positions becomes hard to ignore.

Accepting that fact leads to understanding how central hard habits are to personal development, and how important it is to be mindful of situational and thought patterns. I'd consider the principle that you explored here to be as fundamental to personal and social development as your Law of Least Effort is to seduction. Definitely on my short list of 'laws of self development.'

Again, a very fundamental article man, thanks.

Cheers,
Y

Anonymous's picture

This kind of people are


This kind of people are called "Sociopaths", the masters at manipulating.

Here are some characteristics to watch out for

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Anonymous's picture

Hi Chase. Thanks for another


Hi Chase.

Thanks for another great article.

As I read it, I cannot help but think if my father is one of these people that I should distance myself and set hard and fast rules.

I visited him recently, and he thought he could get a free washing machine out of me by saying he forgot his credit card. I asked him plainly and flatly why he would ask me to take him to look at washing machines with the intention of buying one, only to have "forgotten" his credit card. I told him that I will not pay for it and put my foot down. I knew I was being manipulated. Guess what? Suddenly, he produced a credit card from his wallet!

I wish I could say this was an isolated incident, but there are many other situations like this. We would be having dinner and when the bill comes, he proposes that I pay for everyone at the table as I am working and he is retired. Not once in the entire time I was with him did he once take his wallet out to pay, not for any meals or even just coffee or desserts. My mother would offer to pay but my father would protest and say that I should pay instead. I would give give him a dirty look and say, "Sure, I'll pay...for only myself." I ended up paying several times.

I know I sound a little cold towards my father but the fact of the matter is I never once got the impression he wanted anything good for me. Everything in my life that is good, and that includes my education, my mother has always pushed for and pushed him into paying. He was always about saving a buck rather than giving his offsprings new experiences or exposing them to new things in the world. Consequently, I grew into a clueless and experience-less adult, still playing catch-up.

He was diagnosed with lung cancer and had almost half his lungs cut out. You would think this would have been a life-changing experience for him. Nope. Same old negative ball of energy. It saddens me to see him this way. I have been trying to give him the tools to be a more positive person and to cut out the complaining in his life. Personally, he has never once strived to become a better person. For example, he could have achieved much more potential if he had gotten an education but he elected to sleep most of his free time away. Even now, we try to push him into going back to school or volunteer to give his retirement years more meaning, more purpose, or just more of a social network outside his family. Instead, he insists he is happy the way he is--at home, just reading the paper, watching TV, or sleeping the afternoon away. Every time we bring up the subject, he tries to change it by looking around, as if he is no longer paying attention or starts talking about something else.

I know I sound gullible, playing a white knight and savior to someone like this. At some point, I have to realize that some people just refuse help.

I love my dad, but I find it really hard to like him. Even though he is getting up there in age and could depart this life soon, I have no desires to visit him outside of the once-a-year visit during the holidays. I feel emotionally drained and physically sick every time I see him. He is what you call an emotional vampire and suffers heavily from the victim mentality.

He may have been a father, but he was never a dad.

Nuncle's picture

Great Article


If you have empathy you assume that everyone does and so you assign good motives to bad people.

Even if they're blatantly being a total dick you think "well I'm sure there's a reason for this I haven't worked out yet" or "well that's just the way they are, they don't actually mean anything by it"

It's astonishing, looking back, at some of the bare-faced, completely calculated lies I have accepted just because my brain has told me "well s/he seems calm and sincere so I must have got it wrong", as if lies are only lies if the liar carries a big placard saying "I'm a liar"

I think empathic people beat themselves up unnecessarily when they get stung like this. It's not that they're weak, it's just that (as Chase says) they have a different way of thinking about things. Although because they are modest and self-critical it is quite easy for the unscrupulous to frame it to them as weakness.

I agree you do have to get really burned before you gain the motivation to deal with it, and to realise that different people have very different mindsets to yours.

Anonymous's picture

off topic and being beaten.


Hey Chase,

off topic question. I once confronted the wrong guy. I mean am the typical nice guy but I still don't like to be walked over. One guy in the night club who is alot taller and alot more ripped(muscled) has done a situation where it was disrespectful to me. I told him that what he did was not cool and stupid. The result was being pushed hard in the chin. Though I didn't fall it hurt like hell. Now that bothered me in many ways. Number one who am suppose to protect a girl I like if am so weak. Second I hated the fact that I got intimidated by him and I was psychologically dominated of,course he was stupid, aggressive and a bully hwo can't even talk even though he was still popular with girls. All boxing I learned didn't help even though I did it for only 2 years and I am feather weight. Though Fighting in this situation would have been lose lose even if I would beat him but the fact that I was Weaker, the fact that I was intimidates, the fact that I wasn't even able to block his hits or stand up made me question myself. I go to the gym, I have muscles, I know how to box(a bit). Problem is am still small and skinny guy with muscles and I have been weak for long time of my life. So what can a guy do and if a guy disrespected mw infron of a girl that is important to me what can I do. I am nice but my weakness and weak vibe make people cross me. So what is your thoughts.

Chase Amante's picture

Fighting and Intimidation

Author

Anon-

Not sure what kind of fight / combat conditioning you have, but the kind you want for those situations is real sparring in the gym. Boxing's not bad, and it teaches you to hit hard, but it's also a sport, and you're normally in controlled conditions when sparring - a ring, with equipment on, with a referee to intervene. Doesn't condition you mentally so much for real world street fighting. I took Kenpo karate for 3 years as a teen, and never used it once in a fight, nor did I ever feel any less afraid of getting pummeled in any of the fights I was in for knowing it, either.

I take Krav Maga now (if I had to suggest a martial art of real world conditioning, it'd either be that or Wing Chun - just make sure you find a legit school and not a calisthenics program), and a lot of our conditioning is things like shouting at each other ("You talking to my girl?!"), shoving each other, even some bare-knuckle hitting each other (not full force, but you still get some nasty bruises), standing with your eyes closed and then being attacked from any direction, and various things like that to simulate the off-balanced nature of real world fighting and condition you to not be phased. Very different from what we used to do in Kenpo.

Eventually, there's little substitute for just real world fighting experience - I had a bodybuilder friend who used to roll with a bunch of high level MMA guys, and these guys would just roll out in a big group and goad other people into fights so they could have a reason to go kick their asses ("Hey - that dude swung first. We were just having fun and teasing him a little bit") - they just loved to fight, and stacked up real world experience after real world experience. Of course, that's never 100% safe - you never know who's packing a weapon, or who's got a posse of 6 guys you didn't even know were there.

If you really want to feel confident dealing with fighting situations, I'd suggest taking a street fighting course like Krav or Wing Chun that will condition you for it.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Near auto-rejection + going abroad for weeks?


Hi Chase,

Not really related to the topic here but I wonder what would be the best way to move forward if you were in the following situation:

I moved too slow on the first date (missed escalation windows, didn't realise they'd happen that fast!) and by the end of it already sensed that she's near auto-rejection (though still get some minor compliance and interests).

I should be able to turn things around by the next date but the problem is for work reasons I have to travel abroad for 3 weeks very soon and there is no time to set up another date before then.

In this case, should I try to plan another date with her in advance (3 weeks from now?) or should I just cut contact for now, risk auto-rejection + waning attraction, and come back strong after this?

I'm very interested to hear what you'd do from your experience.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Near auto-rejection + going abroad for weeks?

Author

Anon-

Tough call on the right move here. I wouldn't plan anything in advance, because she'll almost certainly plan to flake on it as soon as she starts feeling sour on you, and then her flaking gets set in stone for her, mentally. Personally, I'd just go radio silent for 2 weeks, then drop her a note 1 week before I got back letting her know something really cool / intrigue-building about where I was and telling her I'd like to grab food with her when back in town - when's good? and just hope that a little time and a little intrigue is enough to get her out on a second date to try and turn things around on.

Chase

jj123's picture

Time Limits and Women


Chase

Thanks for the article. When instituting time limits in a dating scenario -- rather than only bedding her -- what sort of rough time frame should be in place, in most cases? Thanks.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Time Limits and Women

Author

JRJ-

Wasn't sure if you meant time limits in dating prior to sex, or time limits after...?

I suspect these articles may be what you're looking for - on dating prior to sex:

... or, alternately, on relationships:

Chase

Dave's picture

Great, useful article, as


Great, useful article, as I've always been the type of guy you wrote that piece for. I'm just wondering, why are there such people? What's wrong with them?

Chase Amante's picture

Personality Types

Author

Dave-

Psychology is an inexact science, but much of our personality flaws seem to be tied to experiences in childhood. e.g., the "people pleaser" types tend to get their approval as children from making emotionally needy parents feel good; the "pushy / value taker" types tend to be abused and/or neglected as children and learn that the world is cruel and they must fight for everything they want, because no one will give it to them.

Really drives home the importance of early experiences when you study emotional profiles like this - their effects reverberate down through the halls of one's life.

Chase

Big Bro's picture

Thanks


First off thanks for all the great advice on your site it has helped me a lot with girls and relationships in general
but most of all thanks for this one My room mate is a sociopath and these rules are going to help me a lot in dealing with him hes tried everything you just talked about.

Consulting Detective's picture

Chase, in one of your


Chase, in one of your previous articles you talked about a girl who you were friendzoned or kinda chasing (I can't really remember because it was a while and looked around the site but couldn't find the article I'm talking about) and lost interest in you. But when you moved on, she started chasing you back.
Does that mean that even when attraction has an expiration date it can come back?

Chase Amante's picture

Renewed Attraction

Author

Detective-

Well, that one was something of a special case, since although I was largely friend zoned, i was still making out with the girl, getting her shirt off, sucking on her breasts, etc.; I just couldn't get past that point, despite dumping time into it. And, the way I ended things painted it very clearly: she didn't want to date me, so I was going to go date someone else - and then I was out of her life. It pretty clearly left her with a great deal of doubt and uncertainty, because I'd allowed her to attach herself quite firmly to me before, and suddenly the guy she was spending more time and emotional energy on than anyone else was just gone; then, when she finally reconnected with me, I already had a replacement girlfriend (preselection). The feeling I instilled in her was, "You had me - and then you lost me." So, as soon as she found out I was single again, she chased HARD to try and get herself alone with me to sleep with me.

Dealing with flagging or lost attraction has a great deal to do with how important you were to the girl before, what caused the attraction loss (was it because you didn't do anything? Or you DID do something, you just did it too slowly? The first - zero action - is far worse), how you ended things (did you give her a strong, clear feeling of loss with a clear but socially graceful understanding that her lack of putting out was the reason for the loss?), and whether and how much you got preselection going on after the fact and let her see it; the best, obviously, is if you go get a girlfriend much hotter than her, and tell her you're off the market. That drives home the feeling of, "Oh crap, I had an awesome guy in my hands, and then I let him slip away - WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME??!!" that drives her into a frenzied panic of chasing the instant things change and she has an "in" again.

Anyway, in my case, I did NOT sleep with that girl, because I knew I'd built up so much emotion in her that she was going to become extremely attached... and anyway, the girlfriend I'd gotten after her really HAD been far superior to her, and I wasn't going to get sucked into a relationship with an "okay" girl just because I'd allowed her to up my investment and fool my emotions into valuing her higher than she was worth. Just be careful with this stuff, because when you're chasing, and then she's chasing, it's very possible for emotions to get blown out of proportions, and people to end up with people they really aren't such a great match with.

Chase

The Next Best Thing's picture

The Tables Have Turned


Hey Chase! First and foremost thanks for all the help, it's changed the way I interact with people and helped my success with women a ton, thank you. Now, I have a problem Chase.... the other night I had a mishap in the bedroom, needless to say I let the girl down. Whatever, these things happen, but now I find myself trying to get her back in the sack and show her what I can really do! I see her in class all the time and my ego won't let me jus write her off. How do I act around her after a mishap like that? Do I play it cool like nothing happened or admit to the mishap and hope for the best? It's hard for me to act sexual around her now since she's seen all my cards already, she doesn't believe I can satisfy her. I've tried to imagine what would James Bond do in this type of situation lol How do I get her back in the sack? Thanks Chase!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: The Tables Have Turned

Author

TNBT-

I haven't been in that situation expressly (I had a stretch years ago where I lost a few girls like that, but I only ever saw one of them again afterwards, and sort of botched the re-meet), but I think these days if it happened, I'd just go up to the girl and say, "Hey, so I think I figured out what happened the other day, and I'd like another shot. I'll make it worth your while - I've got some making up to do."

Essentially, let her know you know you let her down, and want to make it up to her - the two of you got to the point where you were naked together, so a lot of the niceties can be dropped now and you can just be straight with her. When you tell her "I'd like another shot" and "I've got some making up to do", you're also handing off the power to her, which helps, and is exciting - now she can think about ways she can demand that you make it up to her (e.g., oral sex, positions she likes, etc.), and feel a sense of being in control with a guy she often doesn't get to feel (and it's not because the guy is weak, but rather because he's giving her a one-time pass to ask for what she wants).

Chase

phelwan's picture

Good Read!


I just got out of a short relationship with a narcissistic woman. She was very beautiful, savvy and smart. I knew and felt something was up with her from our beginnings. However, I have a good sense of people and their intentions so I was able to remain steps ahead of her. She was very unempathatic like all narcissist. I remained in the relationship as a learning tool and it was very beneficial. I was able to learn a lot from her. She was super dominant and manipulative. After having set rules to protect myself from being burned I eventually gave her a dose of her own medicine. I had to "cut sling load" and I vanished from her life. Thats just sometimes what you must do. I was empathetic and she was not. As a person that has solid rules like myself you will always win. She blows up my phone every day suffering from the lost attention. With narcissist and those alike you can only learn from the "chinks in your armor" that you allow them to feed off. Chase is right, you must have rules. Most importantly YOU as a person come first so protect yourself. Without personal rules you are just a doormat.

Phelwan

Anonymous's picture

A hopeful request


Hi, Chase, master of seduction!
I am just fond of all your articles, especially about the professional way of seducing women you teach your subscribers.
I've been reading this site for about a year, so I haven't found a full example of a seduction. I've seen a conversation example, but a pick up example, not(a full one).
Coul you do ine in the future?
Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Example Seductions / Lay Reports

Author

Anon-

I might suggest these articles:

By Ricardus (partial reports mixed with teaching):

By Alek (detailed reports with some teaching):

I also have two of my own detailed reports in the appendix of How to Make Girls Chase, and we have a Field Reports Board on the discussion forums here that's chock full of great reports, including a number of lays that are stickied near the top of the board. If you haven't checked these out yet, I'd recommend it - there's some quite educational stuff there!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Question. Do unconventional


Question.

Do unconventional relationships tend to work out? I.e. different ethnicity (even different culture from the same continent) or a younger man with an older women (even just one year apart)

-jack

Chase Amante's picture

Unconventional Relationship Success

Author

Anon-

That's a good question, and not one I feel equipped to answer at the moment - I've seen too much conflicting research, and don't have nearly the sample set of anecdotal references I'd need to feel confident making an educated guess on it.

Much of the research I've seen centers on similar people with similar backgrounds, interests, values, and personalities having the strongest, most durable, and longest-lasting relationships. I've seen one study claiming that mixed-race couples divorce more often than same-race couples, and another study claiming the exact opposite. And I haven't read anything on the stability of mixed-age couples.

I'll tell you what I will do is mark this one down for an upcoming article, and then delve into the research a lot more deeply and see if I can find some answers for these questions. They might be out there - I just might not have come across them yet.

Chase

D's picture

Chase, how do you turn down


Chase, how do you turn down someone you like, or who's close (a relative, a friend, a girlfriend, ...)? Do you just figure that if they really like you/are your friend, they won't be mad at you?

Chase Amante's picture

Turning Down People You Like / Are Close To

Author

D-

Get good at providing some small token gesture in return to alleviate the feeling of a total rejection.

i.e.,

Friend: Dude, come to my [lame party] Friday night! It's going to be so [lame]!

You: Dude!... I can't make it. But tell you what, let's grab dinner early next week - it's been forever.

Friend: Yeah, all right man... how about next Tuesday?

or,

Sister: D, can you help me finish my physics paper on rainbow gravity?

You: Um, that's kind of like not really my area of expertise, but I just read something interesting about that recently - let me forward you the link. It might help.

Sister: Okay. Thanks D!

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Chemistry


Chase,

Another great article! I was wondering, can you write or point me to an article you or someone else has written on "chemistry". You know, that feeling where you and the girl you met get along great; she gets your sense of humor, you guys just have an understanding etc..
I had a situation where I met a girl, there was and still is physical attraction but there is just no "chemistry". I feel like she doesn't get my sense of humor and she says and does stupid things that annoy me. Is "chemistry" something that can be created ? Or is it just one of those things you either have it or you don't, even if there is physical attraction.

Thanks Chase !

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Chemistry

Author

Anon-

This'd be the article you want: "Love at First Sight."

What causes it, though, is anyone's guess - one of the great mysteries of the universe, so far as I'm concerned!

Chase

V's picture

Reject myself before I get rejected/ easy approaching


I don't day game cold approach chase ill be honest, I mostly do club approaches but I rarely go because im busy. I really can't do this approaching thing because to me it feels like a big presentation, you study about, think about it, get excited about it then when the big moment comes you get stage fright. Its just too much and you also think about all the steps you might miss and think its all over of you slip up.

Anyway, my mindset really is, I reject myself before I can even get rejected. How do I get out of that mindset?

How do I make approaching easier?

Thank you

Chase Amante's picture

Approach Anxiety

Author

V-

Every guy goes through that. It's approach anxiety - consideration, excitement, then stage fright / choking / chickening out. I can't say anything else aside from repeating what's already in the articles on the site about it here:

It's like all fear - there's no way to "think" your way through it... the only way is to just grab your balls and go do it, and screw your fear, worries, or apprehension, because life's short, and the fearful man gets left behind.

Chase

Trenton's picture

Small School Blues


Hi Chase. I go to a small school (300 people) and my grade only has 33 people in it. Even though I just moved here last year I know almost everybody in the school on a first name basis. The worst part is however that i'm friends with every girl in my grade and the grade below me. The girl that I like and would absolutely love to ask out, im 90% sure has friend zoned me.

We talk all the time in class and even sit by each other every day. Unfortunately however your jealousy static didn't work as she is the type of person who makes friends with everybody and who no one hates. So even when I went and started hanging out with other people she only ignored it.

The situation that i'm in is one I've been in many times before as I often move. I don't however, just want to just let another pretty girl get away so that another Quarterback as#hole can steal her away from me again just because he has money, and is the Jock of the school. I feel that the only way to dig myself out of the hole that i've dug for myself is to just ask her out. And since the size of my school is so small the fact that I asked her would spread like wildfire, (something that I haven't faced before as i've always gone to schools of more than 500 people in my grade alone) and this is something that I REALLY want to avoid. I'm unsure wether to just accept friend zone status and take what I can get or to just blitzkrieg the line and to just Flat out ask her out.

I would love to have your opinion on my situation, and if you have any, advice on what I should do. Thank you for your time, and please keep up the good work for helpless guys like me.

Sincerely
Trenton

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Small School Blues

Author

Trenton-

Sounds like you're still in high school, which is not really my area of expertise... afraid I was far too much of a loner and rebel in my teen years, and the dynamics there are not something I have experience with. I could give advice, but there's a good chance it'd be bad advice, as it'd be mostly speculation or extrapolation from post-high school experience; and when you're speculating or extrapolating you very frequently wind up off the mark.

We do have some guys on the boards who are a bit more experienced in that arena than I am - one thread in particular by one of our more prolific posters on there right now might be a worthwhile read: "High School Pick Up." There's some content there by Richard on meeting girls in high school itself - might help unstick you from where you're stuck right now.

Chase

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