Her Ex-Boyfriend’s Still in the Picture: What to Do?
A commenter on "Why Chasing Women Doesn’t Work" writes:
“just over a two months ago i was intruduced to a girl by a couple i know, started off texting and getting to know each other. when we first met it was fantastic, got along great , we have met up every weekend since. As we have got to know each other a bit more and opened up to each other, she has a few issues with one of her ex partners who she left for stealing from her. (she was engaged to him )
she is in the process of talking to him again and getting her stuff back, but now i feel on the outer with her , hardly talks to me ect. i feel ive done somthing wrong i dunno, it all started great ,told each other how we feel , she stated she isnt ready for a relationship 'just yet', which i respect and kinda understand. I dont no if i should keep trying to talk to her or just give her a break and wait till she gets in touch with me .”
Now, for this commenter's situation specifically of course, the problem's compounded by a lack of moving fast enough and attraction expiring. Those will cause the slow death of a potential relationship every time, ex-boyfriend or not.
But when her ex-boyfriend is in the picture, this is particularly exacerbated - because everything you have the might be good with her is less good, and everything that isn't the best gets worse.
Ex-boyfriends, in any way, shape, or form, are invariably bad news for any kind of relationship you want to get going with girls.
I generally advocate being non-jealous, non-judgmental, and jealousy-free with the women in your life. And if you aren't there internally yet, you still want to do your best to keep up appearances - your internals will catch up with your externals eventually.
But when a girl's got her ex-boyfriend around in any capacity whatsoever, that's one of those times you really want your alarm bells to start going off, big time.
Not out of jealousy, mind you, nor possessiveness; but out of plain old regular danger awareness.
You Never Really Fall Completely Out of Love
If you think back about ex-girlfriends you've had - or even girls you just had crushes on, flings with, hooked up with, or had an infatuation with - you'll almost certainly feel at least a twang of emotion.
There's still something there.
And if given the chance, you might very well take those girls back to bed again. You might even take them as girlfriends again.
It might not be the best idea.
You might very well be aware that you ought to replace them, not chase them.
But, given the right circumstances and scenarios in your life and theirs, you might still do it anyway.
That's because you never really fall out of love. Not completely, anyway. But there's another side to that too: our predilection as human beings to look back on the past through rose-colored glasses.
Women work exactly the same as men do in this regard, and a woman's as liable as a man is to look back on a partner she split up with after extensive fighting and drama and eventually throwing her hands up and giving up on the relationship and remember much more of the good things than she does the bad.
There's also a certain "known quantity" aspect to this - a man is known to her; he's not a stranger. She knows what she's getting with him, and what to expect. And if at some point she begins to miss this, she knows exactly where she can go to get it.
The Setting of Precedent
I'm not really into kinky sex all that much - exhibitionism, unusual positions, role-playing, any of that - but I do some of it at the start of every relationship. And I'm really a pretty nice guy by default - a little inconsiderate, perhaps, but more because I'm busy than that I don't care - but at the start of every relationship, I'm a lot more of an asshole than I need to be.
Why's this? Because I want to be the hardest, toughest, manliest, most sex-crazy man she's been with. I want that precedent.
Because with every girl you have as a girlfriend, you're either the slickest, hardest, sexiest, baddest hunk of man she's ever had... or you're not.
And if you're not, well... you'd better hope the guy that is doesn't set his sights on his ex - and your current - again, because he'll set a fire in her loins that you simply cannot set.
I was out once at a rooftop lounge with a friend of mine in Los Angeles. This friend had something of a thing for Japanese women, and we happened to meet a pair there and got to talking with them. The girl he was talking to was covered in tattoos, and when he and I were talking later he mentioned the fact, and then mentioned that in Japan, women really don't like getting tattoos, and that for a girl to be that tattooed up, she must have had a Yakuza boyfriend - members of the Asian mafia will make their girlfriends get tattooed, something that marks them as outsiders to society, and undesirable to the majority of men, as a way of marking their territory... a means of staking their ownership.
"I pity whatever guy ends up being that girl's husband," my friend said. "She's never going to be as invested in anyone as she is in her mafia ex-boyfriend."
Drama and fighting and problems in a relationship are turmoil and hell when you go through them, but the more drama a woman goes through with a man and still stays with him, the more invested in him and committed to him she becomes, and the more important to her he becomes and the larger his significance in her life becomes.
Whenever you meet a girl who tells you she fought with her ex incessantly, it isn't just a sign that she's almost certainly going to be quite the drama queen if you ever get together... it's also a sign that she still harbors deep, profound emotions toward this man.
Because of this:
- If a man isn't worth the drama, a woman will leave him once it starts
- Likewise, if she stays with him despite drama, she'll reason he must be worth it
This reasoning is not a logical conclusion. Rather, it's a powerful, deep emotional one - one she has no control over, that is completely illogical and irrational and viscerally compelling.
If he was the sexiest, baddest bad boy of her life, or she fought with him incessantly and had big blow ups and scads of drama but they still stayed together a while anyway - or both - he'll occupy a special place in her heart - and a special place in her sexual fantasies and dreams, more or less forever.
Even if she does the breaking up, he ends up being, to some extent, "the one that got away," or, "the one she could not tame."
How'd you like to go up against that?
We just talked about women's need for different kinds of friends in the piece on female friends - there are friends women have to provide security, friends they have for social elevation, friends who are close friends of theirs, and friends who are potential mates - the love interests of the friend stable.
An ex-boyfriend who's still in the picture provides three of these needs:
- He's insurance against her ending up alone (security)
- He's someone she has a close, intimate relationship with (close friend)
- And he's someone she's already had a romantic and sexual relationship with, and will, given the right circumstance, be open to having one with again (potential mate)
The only one ex-boyfriends (usually) don't qualify under is social elevation - although sometimes girls will use their ex-boyfriends as stepping stones to find new boyfriends through the man's social circle, so on occasion they can be.
But what's it really mean if she's letting the guy hang around?
Why She's Keeping Her Ex-Boyfriend Around
If a girl's keeping her ex-boyfriend around, it's not because she can't make any other friends. And it's not because they had such a great relationship as partners that they ought to just keep on having that relationship as "just friends" once they're no longer together.
No - she's keeping him there for a very specific set of reasons:
-
She doesn't want to let him go. This may be because she knows he's still really devoted to her, and he's a very nice back up plan to have. If nothing else works out and she can't find a better guy, well, she's always got him to go back to. Or, it may be because he made such an indelible impression on her that she doesn't really believe she can find someone better than him - rather, she's just playing the field and biding her time, hoping he'll come around and realize he's meant to be with her.
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She isn't really committed to finding a replacement. When a girl's made up her mind that she is absolutely finding someone better than her ex-boyfriend, she'll drop him like a sack of rocks and start hitting the dating scene like nobody's business. I've never seen a girl truly committed to replacing her ex who also kept that ex on speed dial. Just doesn't happen. You can dwell in the past, or get working on the future - but you can only pick one.
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She thinks no one else really measures up. This one's the scariest one for you if you like a girl and she's keeping her ex-boyfriend around - she may be comparing you to him, and finding all the places you aren't exactly like him (and holding them against you). Sure, if you use one specific person as an absolute metric for perfection, you'll never find anyone else who's quite the same - except for that one specific person, that is.
It's really not because "they have such a great connection that she just doesn't want to let him go."
She keeps him there because she thinks she might want to get together with him again at some point.
How Does Her Ex-Boyfriend Impact YOU?
There are a couple of ways a girl's ex-boyfriend still being in the picture affects you, getting-together-wise:
-
Your time horizon for sleeping with her gets chopped. However quickly he slept with her, you need to sleep with her the same or faster. That means, if he slept with her on two dates, you'd better do it by Date #2 at the absolute latest - or else for the rest of her life, she will know deep in her loins that he was more of a man than you will ever be, no matter what else you ever do with her to prove otherwise. Like our commenter at the beginning of the article - moving fast is more vital with a girl with an ex-boyfriend kept close to her heart than almost any other kind of girl.
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Your escalation windows get smaller and margin for error reduced. Because she feels like she doesn't really need another man - after all, her ex-boyfriend is still around - how long she'll wait for you to pick up on her signs and take action drops dramatically. Attraction expires very fast with girls still in contact with their ex-boyfriends - they have zero real need for a replacement, and grow tired quickly of the dating game with men who can't act on their signals with great haste.
-
Your need for sprezzatura shoots up. There's one man in her life she already likes - her ex-boyfriend - and he isn't trying very hard to win her back. You get compared directly against him - thus, if you appear to be working harder to land her than he is - this guy who may not even be pursuing her at all anymore - you lose points and look weaker and less attractive by comparison.
... and there are also some ways that the ex-boyfriend being in the picture affects you, relationship-wise, too:
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She never fully commits to the relationship. So long as a girlfriend of yours remains close with her ex-boyfriend, you're dealing with a girl who's one foot in, one foot out of your relationship. She'll tell you she's fully committed if you ask, but what you want to pay attention to are her actions, not her words - and her actions will show you she isn't quite as affectionate as other women you've dated are, she isn't quite as ready to cast her lot in with you as wholeheartedly as other girlfriends you've had have been, and she isn't nearly as prepared to say, "Screw everyone and everything else - I'm with you!" How can she - she is still, at least to some extent, devoted to another man.
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She's difficult to maintain relationship control over. So long as a woman feels like you don't have an out - she's the only girl you're spending time with - but she does, she'll tend to view the dynamic between you and her as you being more committed to the relationship than she is. And that simply does not change, no matter how dominant a man you are, how calm, cool, and collected you remain, or how much relationship experience you bring to the table. Her spending time with another man she's had a sexual and romantic relationship with and you not spending time with another woman you've had a sexual and romantic relationship with immediately puts her in a position of dominance in the relationship. Additionally, women know that men don't want their girlfriends spending time with other men, no matter how nonchalant their boyfriends are - doing so is a blatant signal that, "I call the shots here and we do what I want, not you."
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She's a substantial infidelity risk. You can take every precaution to prevent cheating in the world, but if you're letting a girlfriend spend time with her ex-boyfriend you might as well save your effort and go play a video game or something instead. I can't tell you how many women I've heard rail to high heaven about how insulted they are that their man would possibly not trust them with their ex-boyfriends, and how many women I've heard meekly admit how bad they feel about yelling at their boyfriends to stop being so worried because nothing would ever happen with their ex-boyfriends, and then they slept with the guys again. Everybody thinks she's a saint until she actually does a deed.
Ex-boyfriends introduce a whole lot of trickiness into the world for you, and if you want women who are still involved with their ex-boyfriends in one capacity or another, you need to make certain you realize this going in.
How to Handle Girls with Ex-Boyfriends
The answer here is not, "Go beat the guy up," nor is it, "Tell him to stay away from your girl," nor, "Tell your girl to knock off contacting him." Both her and him are two separate people whom you can't expect to change, and who have a relationship between the two of them that they'll resent you sticking your nose into, even if that affects you.
Rather, the answer is, "Know what you're getting into, and make your peace with what you'll need to do and be prepared to tolerate, or don't get into it."
Sometime back, I started dating a girl who was fairly close to an ex-boyfriend of hers. Men had been wining and dining her for years but she'd turned down every single one of them. At one point her ex-boyfriend came to visit her from the city he was in, and they slept together; other than that one time with him though, she hadn't slept with a guy between breaking up with him and getting together with me.
When I met her, I had an instinct that I needed to land her very fast if I had any shot of landing her at all. I didn't know she had an ex-boyfriend she was still in touch with at the time - I could just sense the need for urgency with her, more so than with most women. So I did. But throughout the first 6 months of the relationship or so, she never fully committed to it - she was always one foot outside the relationship, and I was her secret lover.
I was fine with that, though - my philosophy these days is, I'd much rather not make a girl fall in love. I'd rather keep her emotions as neutral as possible. I used to go for wild crazy love, but you break a few girls' hearts and it wears on you a little bit. I'd rather reduce the odds I break more hearts as much as possible, and that means not letting women feel as powerfully toward me. This girl in particular, I thought she was fantastic, but I was also fine with her leaving if she felt she needed to leave - my focus the past few years has been business projects, and relationships aren't a huge concern right now.
Eventually she did end up telling the ex-boyfriend she had a new boyfriend, and he got upset and cut contact with her because he'd been courting her for marriage and felt like he'd been wasting his time, and that was that. After that happened, you could see the change in her toward me - less aloof, less ready to leave at a moment's notice, much more invested in the relationship.
My advice to you if you're facing a situation with a girl who's in
close contact with her ex-boyfriend is this:
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Don't get involved with her if you're going to fall in love. If you're already very experienced with women and you're able to have relationships without them becoming the big emotional roller coasters they are for most people, you'll be fine; you know how to not fall in love and you won't take it personal if she isn't 100% committed to your relationship. If that isn't you though, you're going to end up going crazy over this girl who's crazy over someone else - be warned.
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If you do get involved, be comfortable with her leaving. You need to assume that at some point there's a relatively reasonable chance she picks up and goes back to him - that might be because he's sexier than you, or it might be because he makes her feel more safe and secure than you do. It can happen whether you're a nice guy or a sexy man; depending on where she is in life, she'll want one thing more than another.
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If you're already involved, make your peace with the fact that she isn't 100% yours, or set her free to go chase down that ex-boyfriend at full tilt. You can hope she cuts things off with him eventually, or that he does with her, but much of the time that doesn't happen - she won't cut things off with him unless you find a way to do a better job fulfilling whatever need he fulfills than he does, whether that's wild, crazy, manly sexiness (and sex), or safety and security. And even if you do, unless you do it in a very natural, Law of Least Effort sort of way, she'll pick up on you catering to her in the relationship and it'll damage attraction... bad for you... good for her ex-boyfriend.
It's okay to date girls still spending time talking or chatting or hanging out with their ex-boyfriends, but only so long as you aren't really looking for anything super serious. If you are, steer clear.
And if you have a girl who starts talking to her ex-boyfriend after being with you for a while and never having been in touch with him... well, just consider that a vote of "no confidence" in your relationship, and start preparing your exit strategy. She's already in the process of courting other options - perhaps you ought to be as well.
'Til next time,
Chase
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Comments
Excellent article quick Q
Excellent Article Chase. Question. my current girlfriend before myself has only had 1 other boyfriend and she is 25 (she is the shy,inexperienced, and conservative, but beyond gorgeous mind you ;) ) And before we became offical her ex boyfriend started contacting her and talking to her online, he would always initiate. And she talks to him. He will even contact her at 3 A.M when he sees her online to start a convo and she convos back. Now we have been official for 2 months and she still talks to him. She even asked me "does it bother you that I talk to him?" to which I responded (laugh) "go ahead and talk to him, like he has a chance" to which she looked at me kissed me and said "true". Heres some info. Took him 4 months to sleep with her, and it took only 3 weeks for me so I got that well covered. Did I answere her question correctly. What exactly should I watch out for in this, I know you outlined it in the above article but I was wondering about other warning signs or things I should be worried about.
Thanks.
Cheers, The Tool
Responding to "Does It Bother You?"
Tool–
You may say I’m being oversensitive to social details here, but that’s sort of what happens to you after years of picking up and plunging your head deep into the world of social dynamics.
The normal advice when you get “tests” like this is to shrug it off. The past few years though, I’ve started thinking this is bad advice, and makes you look more like the “nice guy” who’s trying to squelch his own desires and be overly accommodating.
These days when you’re getting the, “Hey, does it bother you that…” my recommendation is to respond with a mildly humorous but weighty caveat. Like so:
Said slightly tongue-in-cheek, you effectively disarm the “threat” of him as a sexual challenge by bringing out into the air the question she’s REALLY asking you – “Are you afraid I might cheat on you with him / leave you for him?” By showing you are relaxed enough about the situation to joke about it openly you tell her you don’t see the guy as a threat at all and understand exactly what she’s asking you, which kills a lot of the intrigue and allure for her (if there was any).
You’ll notice she kissed you after you said, “Like he has a chance,” which is a reassuring gesture – something she’d do with a man whose emotions she was taking care of, rather than one she saw as dominant over her in the relationship.
The main warning signs to look out for with this sort of thing are a withdrawing of emotions, a reduction in passion, and a more skeptical / dominant / rebellious attitude toward you. Generally, the more of this you see, the less she feels she “needs” you and the more she’s begun to question why she has to be with you or listen to you at all. It isn’t a sign that something is definitely happening (until it gets acute), but it is a sign you’re on the road there, once you begin seeing these things occurring more regularly.
Chase
Thanks Chase
Thanks alot Chase, This Makes alot of sense. I apprecaite the feedback
prom date 2
so I took the oputininty i had today and I almost didn't take the chance but I said to myself that if I don't take the oppurinty I might not get another one in the future.so of course I took it. welli deep dived on her so that when I asked her about prom eventually she would not think that it was a big deal for me.as the conversation progressed I found out that she was a pretty smart and intertimg girl.so the bell rang as we walked go to whgere we would go to oiut separate classes I asked her if wanted to go with me to prom and she said something about she was considering going with ex-boyfriend but she doesn't know.so to avoid her making a split decision right there(we both had class to go to)I told her to think about it and we parted ways.
now since I am a very busy guy I don't have time for thing that might not workout.my plan is going to be based on her desion.if she says yes then I would get her number and set up a date asap.if she says no I would ask her if she is single then I would say that relates to we might as well go out and see how this goes kind of thing. also since I don't know her ex if she says yes how should I react and if she says no how would I react to her possible just friends Reponse?
cheers,
anonk
The "I Don't Know" Response
Anonk–
Normally, an “I don’t know, I [whatever],” is a polite brush off – it’s a way of her saying “no” while allowing you to save face. My response to an answer like this tends to be something like, “I understand. Well, I’m sure you’ll have a great time!” and then moving onto the next girl (I spent years leaving these windows open to see if girls giving these, “I don’t know… maybe…” responses would later come around, but they never do – she’s either interested or she isn’t).
At this point, it sounds like this girl isn’t interested enough to want to go out with you right now, so I’d suggest you focus on getting her interested – focus on getting some preselection going and run a jealousy plotline. After a little time passes and you’ve (hopefully) dialed up her interest, you can try asking her again.
Or, better yet - ask some other girls to prom instead... you might be surprised at who says yes!
Chase
impacts
Chase I think I could argue the fact that every girl you do something with gives you an emotional "twing" I think it's more like the ones that you shared positive moments and what-not with, and some more than others ( in my case theres a girl thats been on my mind since forever) but I can also recall how theres some girls ive hooked up with that i barely remembered or girls that i had a relationship with which i dont really remember at all or dont remember positively
Impacts
Anon-
I can see how that'd be true - I suppose it depends how you view the women you share moments and relationships with.
In that light, perhaps we'd amend this post to "anyone you've been intimate or had a relationship in the past with that you've cared enough about to bother staying in contact with." There are a few occasions where you'll see someone totally reset emotions and not care in the slightest about a former lover or partner dating and sleeping with other people, but it's very rare and it takes a certain kind of person and a certain level of exposure to the former partner flirting with / dating lots of other people.
For all intents and purposes, it's safe to assume that if a girlfriend is in contact with an ex of hers in any way, she still has some feelings for him.
Chase
Hi Chase, Read through this
Hi Chase,
Read through this article and the one about girls with current boyfriends. I'm with you on not selling your soul and going after a girl who is completely in love. But the question soon becomes- how do you know when a girl is totally in love with her boyfriend? Is there a forward way to ask (eg; "Listen, I am going to ask something. I need you to answer honestly. Are you completely in love with your boyfriend right now? I like you, (name), and I know you like me too.)
Can I assume the flirtatiousness and clear signs of interest mean that she is not? Maybe she's a tease? Or, ABOVE ALL OTHER DOUBTS ABOVE, is it best to just roll the dice, make that bold move like a kiss, and find out what happens next? Everything would become black and white then: either she we get together (and that love question is answered) or we don't see each other again.
Swimmer
Identifying Girls Who Are In Love
Swimmer-
Girls in love with their boyfriends won't flirt heavily, and their reservations around moving things forward with you will always be centered on their relationship. So you won't hear a protest like, "It's too fast for me!" Rather, you'll hear one like, "I can't - I love my boyfriend!" She'll also mention her boyfriend early and often - if she's really in love with him, he'll be a big, important part of her life, and she'll speak of him much and clearly hold him in high esteem.
Girls who aren't in love with their boyfriends conceal them from you or mention them only in passing, and if they do get to talking about them they'll either refer to them disdainfully or in a "he's a good little puppy" sort of way that makes it clear they're the dominant party in the relationship and they do whatever they want (including whatever they want with you).
Chase
Very interesting, I've often
Very interesting, I've often been the ex-boyfriend she was still involved with. One time I was on the other side, I was the sexy one, but he had the money and she was a golddigger.
The Sexy Side
Dale-
Yes - that's one of the big benefits of being the sexiest man of her life. You more or less have access to her whenever you want, pretty much for the rest of her life. At some point, moral questions enter in - where do you draw the line and risk disrupting this girl's latest serious relationship? I've had some really interesting conversations with guys who fall in the super-sexy category about this - it seems to mostly come down to the guy's own family background with relationships. If he came from a stable home, he won't touch girls in serious relationships because he doesn't want to ruin a "good thing" for her, but if he didn't, he doesn't see anything wrong with sleeping with an ex of his whether she's about to get married or already married or whatnot... she's still his, she'll always be his, even if she doesn't quite realize it. I think this is because the guy from a broken home assumes that all serious relationships break down at some point, so why deny her and himself their passions and desires for the sake of something that won't last anyway?
Gold diggers are a different animal altogether... they really have a different emotional view on relationships. Relationships are more about practical considerations than they are emotional ones - it's all about what she can get, rather than what she feels.
Chase
Eliminating Awkwardness
Hey Chase,
My new friend is having trouble with chicks so I directed him to this site. He says its great but he searched around and couldn't find what he was looking for. So he wishes for a post on eliminating awkwardness. He is kinda of awkward with people in general( I get along with him well enough though) and wants to eliminate the bad vibes he gives people that make them uncomfortable and want to stay away. Anyway that would be awesome if you had the time to make a post like that for him.
Thanks,
Nick
Re: Eliminating Awkwardness
Nick-
I'll put it on the list. Meantime, a few posts that might be worth checking out for him:
Each of those deal with awkwardness in social situations in one way or another.
Chase
Her best friend is a guy
Hey Chase,
So I've been with this girl for the past four months and things are going great. Last month her best friend (a guy) moved back to the same city. They'll hangout once or twice a week. Sometimes she let's me know and usually it only comes up if I ask her what she did last night. He does have a girlfriend that's 3hrs away that he doesnt see often.
This past weekend the 3 of us hung out at the bars and I noticed some strange things. As we were standing, she was arm and arm with him while at the same time holding my hand. She had her purse up to her should which she never does just to do this. I noticed and let let go of her hand. Then we decided to move inside and I took her hand. Walk us in. She said she needed to hold his hand so we don't lose him but the place wasn't packed. I let go of her hand again and could tell she was reaching for me. After awhile inside we decided to move back outside. Once again she held his hand while I was holding her hand and leading the way. I had to shake her hand off this time as she was trying to hold on. I felt really uncomfortable during this whole hand holding thing. She finally realized and was all over me for the rest of the night. When we dropped him off she got out of the car since she was driving and gave him the longest hug. Looking back at the night when we picked him up, she was pointing to something to pickup in the car and she called him babe. At dinner she was flirty with him and playfully stuffed this candy in his mouth because she thought it was funny. The night after I asked her what she was doing and she said she was having dinner with him.
I keep doing a reality check to make sure I'm not being insecure and I've shared this with my friends for feedback and they all agree it was strange and something to bring up with her. I don't think I'm being insecure so I'm checking with you.
What are you thoughts? Am I overreacting and should not say anything. If I do say something I dont want to come off jealous, insecure, not dominate, controlling etc. What should I actually say?
She did just found out that he's moving again out of state. Or am I making excuses again.
Guy Friend
Anons-
That's kind of a hard situation because you don't actually know to what extent she's gone with the guy or to what extent she thinks she might go. He could be a former lover, he could be a guy she has something going on with now, or he could just be some guy she's close with whom she enjoys flirting with and gets a rush out of knowing he finds her attractive.
This is a "red flag" behavior for me, simply because it means you're going to have to devote a lot of your time, emotion, and mental cycles paying rapt attention to every little thing she does and trying to interpret it and figure out what it all means. And unless you hire a P.I. to follow her around, you'll probably never know for sure what the whole deal is.
Tell this story to a girl, and you'll get girls saying, "Oh, come on - I'm the same way with my guy friends!" You'll also, if you have some very honest female friends, here a few, "I do this with my guy friends - and sometimes when we're both a little drunk we hook up, whether I have a boyfriend or not." But not all - some girls get off on taking things right up to the line but not going over - it makes them feel powerful, like they hold great sway over these men who are almost there with them, but don't quite get there (until a guy who knows what he's doing comes along... I talk about seducing one of these girls in "Walk the Line").
Regardless, there's always some element of sexual tension and attraction among close opposite sex friends (no point asking them about it though; they'll deny it all day long) - the bigger questions are how high are the friends' resistances to acting on that attraction and how often do they put themselves in situations where something can "just happen."
In my experience, the women who are very chummy with other men in front of their boyfriends are usually open to doing things with those men given the right circumstances. I've had girls who'd hold my hand and flirt with me in front of their boyfriends get drunk and start kissing me in front of their boyfriends (back when I was still running social circle game and not moving as fast).
It's really just not a good situation to be around. You'll never be able to be absolutely certain of a girl's fidelity in any relationship, no matter who she is - there are always things that can happen without you having the slightest idea of it. All you can really go for are likelihoods and chances.
As far as what to say... there's really nothing to say that does you any good. If something's going on, she'll be annoyed at you for bringing it up and not knowing your place. If nothing's going on, she'll be annoyed at you for being weak enough to think she prefers other men to you, and it might even suggest to her that she SHOULD prefer other men to you - if even YOU doubt your own staying power, why should SHE believe in it? Your actions need to serve you - you can start letting her see you flirt with other women in front of her, but then you risk turning things into a competition and having it really get ugly.
Really, you can't change a girl's behavior - she is the way she is the way she is. All you can do is watch it, gauge it, and decide if it's acceptable for you or not - and if you can accept it, you stay with her, and if you can't accept it, you find a different girl who's just as good as her but who behaves herself more in accord with what you're looking for in a mate.
Chase
Hi Chase, thanks for the
Hi Chase, thanks for the article, it was very enlightening and hit home quite a lot.
I'm currently in a situation where-by my current girlfriend is best friends with her ex boyfriend of 8 years. They both play music together and meet up on a regular basis. She says there is no chance of them being together again, and that he has been her guide/guru and see's him more of a father figure. For latter part of their relationship I know they weren't having sex which lead to an amicable break-up but they have remained close partly due to what they invested in terms of music but mostly I think because of a inherent dependence on one another. Its true that if you ever bring up their relationship she turn's on you faster than you can imagine. I've been seeing my gf for almost 6 months now and while a do trust her fully, I know that she will never be able to relinquish the control that she allows her ex-bf to have on her. For that reason I think we will inevitably break-up, half so I can have some sense of dignity back and to be in a relationship that were both committed fully to, secondly just out of plain curiosity to find out what happens next with them! I do wish things could be different as she's an amazing girl, its just a shame that some people are unable to let go of the past! If you have any extra advice it would be greatly appreciated.
cheers
Tornado Girl - my Kryptonite
Hey Chase,
I have an interesting, tornado of a situation and I want to see if you can assess it. I never actually checked out these dating advice sites until this girl came into my life and gave me a head/heart ache. I'll give you a brief background about myself, as this girl really took me out of my norm. I'm a descent looking guy, fit and I have a stable well-off job. In my high-school and uni days, I was never really great with girls, because I lacked confidence. However, as I started building my "portfolio" with women, I became somewhat of a player (I would be seeing 2 - 3 girls at once) and I found that I was being chased (so I'm pretty good at picking-up/sealing the deal now)! However, I realized I'm not really into that kind of life style, i wanted to find someone special and I wanted to stop hurting others.
Last summer I met this girl (call her Girl X) through sports, in the beginning I did not think much of her. Few weeks later I found out that she lived two doors down from my apartment and that is when we began talking (she moved back home soon after though). I also met her bf (when she was not around and not knowing they were going out) who lived in an apartment close by. He added me on social media, we exchanged numbers, etc., but I did not develop a relationship with the guy.
Me and the girl began texting everyday and we hung out once in while for lunch/dinner. I later found out that she had a bf or a bf she was on a "break" with, so I confronted her and asked her if she was still going out with the guy, and she said no. We hung out more and I began developing feelings for the girl, so I cut off all contact with the guy and deleted him from my life because I felt guilty. The issue was that they were fresh out of a break-up and she told me CLEARLY she was NOT READY. Furthermore, she made a point saying that she wanted to remain friends with him and they would talk/txt everyday. I guess this is where my ego complex came in and made me want this girl even more, lol. So I stupidly started investing more and more into this girl, we ended up hooking-up pretty quick, but I put so much of myself out there that I became very emotionally involved. And that's when shit started hitting the fan, we would be in a consistent tug of war of hooking up, enjoying each others company then her running away or me pushing her away resulting in not talking for a week or two weeks. I was seeing other girls during those breaks, but I couldn't get over this girl and EVERYTIME me and her met-up we would end up hooking-up. So the girl was getting the best of two worlds. The comfort, the support, the love from her ex-bf and the physical and sense of pursuit from me (I was used for sex, lol). We did this break-up get hook-up thing for about 3-4 months with her ex always in the picture, but I finally said I'm done and we stopped talking to each other for several months (they hung out at times, he went to her birthday, took her to dinners, etc. during the whole time I saw her). (the story continues)
So after I stopped talking to this girl I start doing my own thing, I was devastated, but once I got back on my feet I started seeing other girls and I dated these two wonderful girls. I wasn't ready and I told these girls I wasn't ready, so I was seeing them at the same time, and I was happy that I had my freedom to chase and I had girls on the side when I needed.
This is when the story turns a 180 again. So side fact that I forgot to mention, I became very close friends with the guy friends of Girl-X. I find out through one of the new girls that I was seeing that Girl-X was checking up on me because she was asking if I was dating the new girl. I didn't think much of it as I thought she was still with her bf and I haven't seen her in months. But a couple of weeks later I go to this party and I see her there... We act normal, have light chit-chat and she tells me she has broken up with her bf for good now and she hasn't been with him for two months (so calculations they got back together for a month and broke off again). We end up at this club together as a group, but me and her ended up breaking off and being alone for the rest of the night. We don't end up going home together as I was scared of being hurt again.
She texts me a couple of days later and friendly me, starts talking to her again (light chit-chat), but I confronted her and was like hey Girl-X, I'm seeing other people right now and I want to make it work, so I just wanted to make it clear if we talk I just want to be just friends with you. Long-story short, we end up hooking up again lol. I don't know why, but I really like this girl gahhh. I was still seeing the other girls at the time, but I noticed myself pushing them further and further away for Girl-X. I confronted Girl-X and said I don't want drama again and she reassures me this time is different as she just doesn't care about her ex anymore. I asked her to take down some intimate photos of her and her ex and she ended up doing it after a small fight (I know it made me look insecure, but it bothered me).
So currently me and Girl-X are pretty good. I have been steadily making her invest more and more into me, but at times I feel like she is holding back. Also I have a feeling she still talks to her ex from time to time (that weasel made sure he dug himself into her friend circle). I see her liking his photos once in a while on social media, and him doing the same to her, I don't like to creep, but I see it (social media is the worst!). She says that he and her are over and he is ok with it, but I know from a guys perspective that he would take her back in a heart beat if he could (not to be vain but the guy is ugly, but he does have alot of family money, makes me feel poor lol)... BUTTT Apart from that, there isn't any other red flags, which would make me hesitate in jumping into a relationship with this girl (sounds dumb I know haha). We both like each others company and we started holding hands and hanging out with her friends (don't hate I like holding hands!). I feel like this time is different from last summer and I feel like I should give her a shot. It's been a month and a half since we started seeing each other again and I want to ask her to be my girl. I told her my best girlfriend is coming to town and she was really up for meeting her.
I have never had a girlfriend before lol (lots of brocken relationships), and I do want to make it work with this girl. So do you think I should take the plunge and ask her to be my girl and give her a chance (I know I would have to live with some baggage) or should I just keep at where I am right now, hanging out, but keeping my emotions at arms length. Thanks Chase for reading, I know its helluv long, but this girl crushed my big ego once haha and I honestly don't know how to move on past the I'm seeing you and f***ing you phase of the relationship to something more lol
Slept with her multiple times and she won't decide.
Hey Chase, thanks for the article.
I've been seeing this girl for about 2 months who is constantly contacting me to hangout with her. We have been seeing each other quite a bit and she slept over one weekend and stayed till the next evening. She came back on Sunday and spent 6 hours with me.
The problem is, she says she remains friends with all of her exes (which is true) but the problem is, the most recent ex has been contacting her (they broke up only 4 weeks back) and they have hung out a few times. She tells me whenever they hangout and when I tried to tell her that I don't want to be a rebound, she assured me that I'm not.
However, whenever I try to bring up the fact that I want to make it official, she says "I haven't decided yet." She hasn't told her ex about me because she said he is her best friend (they dated 3 years) and he will leave her life if he finds out, and that she doesn't know if me (who she's been seeing for 2 months) is worth sacrificing someone she dated 3 years.
She *said* she doesn't have feelings for the ex anymore but I have a hard time trusting her. I don't know what she wants as we act like a regular couple but she just doesn't want to call it that yet.
What should I do? I am already seeing other women on the side but she doesn't know this. Do I explicitly tell her that I will start seeing other women until she makes up her mind?
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