A Failed Relationship is a Failure of Leadership


Who’s fault is it when a relationship fails?

Two words for you: the man’s.

Usually.

failed relationship

Note: a relationship failure is something different than letting a relationship decline and die, or just breaking up with a girl, because you’ve lost interest or other things in your life have taken precedence or she’s let herself go and is no longer meeting your requirements for someone you’ll keep around in a relationship capacity.

In that case, while a female observer would still consider it a “failed relationship”, from the standpoint of the male it probably isn’t (unless it’s a case of her letting herself go... then, maybe it is, if she was what you wanted before that but stopped being it after it). In that case, it’s just a relationship that didn’t work out.

When I say “failed relationship” here, what I’m talking about is a relationship that you really wanted to work out... but it went belly up anyway.

Is it ever the woman’s fault?

Yes, sometimes. Rarely. In the case where the relationship is a female dominated one because the man has yielded to her the role of captain aboard the good ship Relation... in that case, he is following her lead, and the direction the relationship goes is up to her.

Even then though, I’m torn... because most women who lead don’t want to do it, and resent men who make them do it as weak. If I’m the officer of a military unit and I hand over my command to one of my subordinates, who then goes on to lead us right smack into a disaster, am I absolved of all blame, or do I still take some too?

The large majority of the time, across most kinds of relationships, it’s the fault of you, the man – and nearly always, it’s a failure of leadership that causes the relationship to fold.


failed relationship

One of the most irksome kinds of comments we receive on this site come from whiny men weighing in on some of the relationship pieces (and especially on the one about why women test men) to let us know that we are wrong, men shouldn’t have to do everything... it’s the WOMAN’s fault when relationships fail! These men want relationships!

Which is kinda like saying well, I went to high school but failed out, therefore it’s the high school’s fault, because I wanted to get a diploma and they just wouldn’t give it to me.

Or, I started a business and it failed, so it’s society’s fault, because I wanted it to succeed and for me to be a billionaire but people refused to buy my products and make that happen... therefore it’s their faults and not mine.

The similarity between the high school student, the business builder, and the man in a romantic relationship is that all of them are pursuing something that reacts to them, in, yes, a sometimes difficult-to-fathom or hard-to-predict way (especially for the very inexperienced of men and/or those with bad mental models and without proper guidance in these arenas), but nevertheless, react to them it does.

Because, in relationships, this is how women are: watching you, observing you, and REACTING to you based on what they see; the good, the bad, and the very, very ugly.


A Failure of Leadership

Solon, the famed poet and statesman in ancient Athens, has many memorable quotes, but one of his more interesting ones is this:

A people always minds its rulers best
When it is neither humored nor oppressed.

What Solon is saying here is that the happiest subjects are those whose rulers neither:

  • Give them everything they want and cater to their every whim, nor
  • Give them nothing they want and cater to none of their whims

To this I would also add, “Nor neglected, too,” since neglect is neither humoring nor oppression, but leads to people coming to despise their rulers (or simply just drift away from them) just the same.

And in a relationship, the subject-ruler dynamic is in fact alive and well.

But wait! you say. I am a modern, sensitive, equality-minded man! I thought women wanted to be treated as equals!

Or, perhaps, you say, Women are so vocal about wanting their equality; let’s just give it to them! I will treat them the same as I’d treat any one of my friends, and expect that they want and need and require nothing more from me than any of my male friends would, either.

Both of these are out-of-touch with reality and seek to give women “equality” when this isn’t what they want.

The man who considers himself equality-minded and not wanting to lead his woman inadvertently ends up being led by her.

Meantime, the man who throws his hands up in frustration at women and proclaims that he will treat them just like men doesn’t end up in many meaningful long-term relationships anyway, because he’s too bitter or defiant to figure out what women want and give it to them (and from what I’ve seen, he usually ends up, ironically enough, committed to a woman who ends up leading him just like the first equality-minded guy does).

No woman wants to be with a man who is subservient to her... or even “equal” to her!

She wants to be seen as equal in the workforce, in academia, and other places where she seeks to make it unrelated to romantic or sexual pursuits... but when it comes to those latter two, you’d better bet her bottom dollar that what she wants from a coworker is not the same thing she wants from YOU.

Many men do not realize this, or are unable to, and thus they don’t lead.

failed relationship

Yet even among men who DO realize that women are in search of a leader, failure is very common.

That failure comes in one of the three forms discussed above:

  • Humoring her,
  • Oppressing her, or
  • Neglecting her


Why a Failed Relationship Failed

Lets grab a closer peek at each of the possible excesses that lead to a relationship failing.

  1. Humoring. Humoring is the sin of the nice guy, whose girlfriend, lover, or wife is so important to him that she’s become his mission – and he must do anything and everything to ensure he doesn’t lose that mission. Whatever she wants, he’ll get it. Whatever she needs, he’ll deliver to her. Whatever she requires of him, he’ll provide. His life is one of service... to her. And while she may enjoy this at first (especially if she’s rebounding from a string of sexy bad boys who didn’t ‘treat her right’), she will always quickly tire of it, and tire of him. And before long, she starts to ask herself what she’s doing with a partner who’s so far beneath her that he bends to her every effort to control the frame, anyway.

  2. Oppression. On the flipside of the nice guy’s humoring comes the oppression of the man who also views it as very important to hold onto his woman, but sees the only way of doing that as being strict, unbending control, rather than trying to endlessly please his way into her never wanting to leave. Often this man has come from a background of tough guy friends and relatives himself, and he’s never learned any means of compulsion except by force – you do what I say, or else. His force may be verbal or emotional, and not ever physical – but he still pushes the women in his life to constantly submit. Eventually they get too far into ego depletion, come to resent him, and look for ways to exit and go lick their wounds – or fight back and take revenge.

  3. Neglect. Neglect is in the gray zone of “is it a relationship failure or isn’t it”? Certainly, the relationship did not work out... but if that’s because you didn’t want it to, is it really failure? Perhaps not. Neglect comes about when a man loses interest in a woman he’s seeing, and simply begins putting progressively less time and emotion in her. He doesn’t try to please her; he doesn’t try to control her. In fact, he doesn’t really do much of anything with her... and eventually the two of them just drift apart, sometimes with her fighting to get some kind of reaction out of him – anything – but sometimes with her just saying, “Well, was nice while it lasted, but I’m bored now too,” and exiting stage left.

Any one of these done to excess spells doom for a relationship, every bit as much as it does a kingship.

Humor her too much and she’ll come to view you as her inferior, leaving you (in boredom) to go find a man who is her superior, and more worthy of partnering up with over the long haul.

Oppress her too much and she will eventually lash out in rage, resentment, and vengeance, undermining you and seeking to wrestle free from your controlling grasp.

Neglect her too much, and she may try to reinterest you but, failing in that, will eventually just shrug her shoulders and walk away herself.

The first two of these you might’ve recognized as similar to what we talked about in “How to Get Your Girlfriend Back”:

  • “Screw you, jerk!” is quite similar to what happens with oppression
  • “Yay, I’m free!” is quite similar to what happens with humoring

But why does a woman view a man who humors her too much as a boring snooze... or a man who oppresses her too much as an insufferable jerk?

It has to do with the lack of balance in the picture; because, you see, a good ruler lies at none of the extremes of humoring, oppression, or neglect, but rather somewhere in the happy medium between the three that combines the elements of each into a far more attractive combination.


failed relationship

A good candle to light the way for the aspiring leader is perhaps to think of leadership thus:

  • Give her enough breathing room to feel her decisions are her own, yet

  • Provide enough of her relationship needs that she feels content, while

  • Disallowing her from overstepping her bounds within the relationship

But before we discuss these, first let’s get out of the way many men’s reluctance to lead.


The Reluctance to Lead

Relationships are probably one of the biggest things passersby complain about on this site. They seem to be among the most jarring, cognitive dissonance-generating topics we discuss.

I believe that part of this stems from men who aren’t very good with women in general holding out the hope to themselves that if they can just manage to land a great girl SOMEHOW into a relationship, at that point they can hang up their spurs and ride off into the sunset and from that point forward it’s automatic wedded bliss.

I think the other part is that Western society and media today takes care of so many of the decisions a man was historically called upon to make for himself that a large portion of Western men never have need to develop any leadership traits throughout their lives.

Western society is also quite different from many ancient societies; while most societies shamed men for acting unmanly or indecisive, Western society has flipped this, hoisting up womanly virtues like cooperation, inclusiveness, and compromise. Arguably, these values may be better suited to a highly industrialized civilization where men don’t need to sally out into battle every couple of months or years as most men have throughout most of human history, but they aren’t very conducive to healthy male-female relationships.

This is the part of the article where I say “grab the reins or get off the wagon”; either you’re going to say to yourself, “You know what – I may not WANT the responsibility of leadership right now... of being the one who has to be the buffer between the winds of uncertainty that make up real life, and the desire for guidance and certainty a woman will want from me, but this is what’s needed and this is what I must be,” or you’re going to reject it and say, “No! I shouldn’t have to do that for a woman,” with the implication, since one partner MUST be the buffer between the uncertain real world and the clearer relationship world, that you will be yielding the reins to her.

If your path is the latter – I won’t lead; I shouldn’t have to lead; she needs to do her part – there’s no advice I can give you, other than find a woman who is high in empathy and will be gentle toward your emotional needs.

If yours is the former, though – if you embrace the path of the man to lead, first the women he has around him, and then, perhaps, later on, his business, his family, his tribe, his cause or his country – if that’s your path, then I invite you to continue on through this article, and let’s examine how best you can lead the women (and others) in your lives and reach a happy end.


The Leader Usually Gets Crucified

One other ugly caveat, before we jump in: it’s always the leader who gets the blame.

If you’re a student of history, one of the things you will consistently be amazed by is how often great men who do great things for their societies are cast out by those same societies (e.g., Themistocles saved all of Greece from the powerful, invading Persian Empire with a legendary maritime battle... then later was falsely accused of being in cahoots with the Persian Empire, and forced to flee for his life), frequently assassinated and having their families murdered as well.

It’s not that bad when a relationship doesn’t work out, but the man pretty much always gets the blame.

This is because the leader is the one who accepts full responsibility. He’s the one who says, “Put this thing on my back; and if it works out, give me the glory and the rewards, and if it doesn’t, the ignominy and the deserts.”

If you’re risk averse, that probably doesn’t sound all that enticing, but it just goes with the territory, and it’s something you must make peace with. Unless your woman was a saint, you will nearly always face scorn on the failure of a relationship, whether it fails after 3 weeks or 4 decades.

And while truthfully there will be all manner of seemingly random things that intervene in your relationship, the fact remains that your guidance and leadership is the #1 thing that determines how it all plays out.

Would she have cheated if she was both completely satisfied with your relationship AND had tremendous attraction and respect for you as a man?

Probably not... and in the rare case she still would have anyway, you need to pick better.


#1: Give Her Enough Breathing Room

failed relationshipThis one’s simple enough to say, but depending on where you’re at with women might be harder in practice:

You must give her enough space that she feels neither smothered nor controlled.

Just not so much that she feels neglected.

Easy to say, hard to do, right?

In fact, you will tend to fall on one side of the divide or the other – either too clingy/controlling, or too hands-off, depending on how fully wrapped up in your own mission you are (or how dangerously close she is to being that mission).

Generally speaking, it’s better to be a little more hands-off and then reel it back in and spend quality time with her than it is to be a little more clingy/controlling and then have to give her some freedom.

In the one case, she chases you for more affection (you’re a little too hands off); in the other, she struggles to separate herself from you (you’re too clingy or too controlling).

This one’s mainly a mentality thing, and there’s not much you can do technically to control yourself here; if you don’t have legitimately a purpose in your life than her, and you aren’t otherwise in possession of absolute abundance, it’s going to be hard to dial it down.

You can use hard rules to keep your emotions checked for a while, but in relationships your inner self bleeds through... which is what makes relationships easy for the guys who are already pretty solid on the inside, and a real pain for the guys who’ve still got work to do.

If you want some practical steps, they include:

  • Don’t go crazy texting / calling / messaging her. Personally, I never write girls first unless it’s been weeks since I’ve seen or talked to them or I want to set up logistics for them to come over. That’s going to be a little different for everyone’s personality style – if you’re a bit more emotionally involved than I am, maybe you call her once a day at a certain time each day, but I wouldn’t go too much further than that. Relationships are for face-to-face, not correspondence, unless you’re away fighting off barbarian hordes.

  • See her slightly less than she’d like. If she wants to spend every day with you, for example, you should probably stick to 3 to 5 days a week max (assuming you’re in a pretty committed relationship but not living together). If it’s a newer relationship and you aren’t seeking commitment, usually better to keep this substantially lower, in the range of once or twice a week max – see “How to Start a Relationship with a New Girlfriend.”

  • Invite her to some things, but never pressure her to come. When people try to wrap others into relationships with them, a lot of the time they start by inviting them to things, and then waiting around with visible anticipation for the response. If you’re going to invite, it should be offhanded and casual (not a big deal), and you should try to be as uninvolved in her response as you can get... try not to think about it too much in advance if you’re getting worked up about it. The less pressure she feels, the more she ends up feeling that her decisions to invest in the relationship are hers, and not simply reactions to your pressuring her.

Those are a few quick fixes, but if they’re unnatural for you, you should probably be working on things like your mission and your abundance mentality first and foremost, before you start worrying too much about running the perfect relationship.


#2: Provide Enough of Her Relationship Needs

This one I and other articles on Girls Chase have discussed extensively on the site in various other articles – see:

... and dozens more.

If you want the broad brush overview, read “What Women Want.”

This sounds super complex when you’re starting out, but once you’ve deprogrammed yourself from what society tells you women want (and that’s a real mixed bag of relatively effective stuff and horribly ineffective stuff) and get the gist of what women actually want, they become pretty simple.

Here’s the long and short of it: women want men (over the long term) who:

  • Make them feel accepted and valued
  • Make them feel sexually desirable
  • Make them feel secure to be with a strong and dominant leader
  • Make them feel challenged to continually flirt and chase and re-attract him

All of that gets handled almost automatically if you are a.) with a woman you genuinely really like, yet b.) also have a mission of great importance to you that trumps all else.

Until then, you have to simulate it, but you should always bear in mind that that’s the object: reach the point where you are the manly, sexy, dominant man who is just within her grasp and makes her feel great when she gets him, but whom she’s never certain she unconditionally now possesses.

All while, of course, never supplicating.


#3: Disallow Her Overstepping the Bounds

This is another one we’ve already discussed plenty on here and I won’t repeat much:

... and plenty more.

The gist here is that you are not controlling a girl... but neither are you letting her run slipshod over you.

Instead, you are fine and happy with her while she is fine and happy with you, but the moment she starts acting up, you communicate your indifference (if in a casual relationship or early on in the relationship) – see the “Women and Drama” article for this – or you very quickly get to the heart of the matter and settle it (if in a longer term relationship) – see the article on operant conditioning for how to do that.

There must be consequences, and you must be willing to walk away (see “I Don’t Chase ‘Em, I Replace ‘Em” and “How to NEXT a Girl”). If you aren’t able to leave if you must, you will not be able to enforce rules and boundaries – be very aware of that going in.

The one not able to walk away from the table isn’t the leader. He’s the one who’s led. Hopefully you won’t have to play this card... but just having it in your deck makes all the difference in nearly everything you do when it comes to checking boundaries. You just can’t communicate the same level of certainty and determination (the kind she’s looking for in a man) if you know, deep down, that you’ll never really back it up.

By the same token, you must also be focused on “resolution” as rapidly as possible. Deal with an issue, then resolve the bad emotions and get on with things. Leaving open fuming in a relationship is what creates an air of oppressiveness, and it’s what drives women toward seeking outlets for the resentment that builds – it stops them from needing or wanting revenge. Deal with outbursts rapidly and expertly, and get things back to positive emotions soon after it’s done.


Your Relationship, Your Charge

Absolving yourself of the need to lead doesn’t make the problem go away, any more than throwing the covers over your head when a gang of machine gun toting home invaders are pointing their gun barrels at you makes them disappear. Just because you can’t see their guns doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get shot.

A relationship is a project that you control, command, and steer. A well-run relationship is a partnership, where you’re the captain and your girl is your first mate. You’re in charge; she provides valuable support, suggestions, and counterpoints that help you lead better. But you call the shots.

failed relationship

If you find yourself in a relationship with a woman who makes a crummy first mate, then either you did a poor job picking her out, or you did a poor job keeping her happy enough to want to continue doing a good job after.

Inexperience relieves you of the blame in either case, but it doesn’t leave you any better off. So – get your experience up, and learn this.

And if at the end of this article you still feel like saying, “It’s too hard! Why does the man have to do anything! What about equality?!” all I can say is:

“Life’s tough, ain’t it?”

But you roll with the punches and before long all that stuff that seemed really hard before is child’s play to you now.

So don’t despair; repair (your damaged relationship game) and go crank out some awesome connections and great first mates.

Chase

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

Good Post Chase


I think this post is definitely one of your best Chase. Although, in comparison to your other posts, it is a bit obvious, and general once you have experience; it does highlight a mistake I've seen quite a few men make. I'm in college and recently spent an entire year in an on-campus dormitory. I'm now fully cognizant of just how bad most men's "relationship game" truly is.

To give my own example, I met a girl midway through the year who really taught me just how true the stuff in this post is. The guy she was with had been heavily involved in social organizations, school, and work when they met. As the year went on, he got bored of school (as we all do eventually) and lost the other 2 for various reasons. At that point, she became his mission, and he was both clingy (wanting to spend all his time with her) and oppressive (telling her he didn't want her making new friends). I came into the picture right as this shift in their relationship was taking place.

After he met me he considered me a threat and tried his usual tactics to keep us apart. The only difference was I didn't really take it personally (like everyone else) when she told me he hated us hanging out. What I found most amusing about the whole thing was that the harder he squeezed her, the more she was driven to me. I didn't have a real desire to be anything more than friends with her but; ironically, it got to the point where she was in my bed verbalizing her desire to have sex right now.

Long story short, he eventually got his job back, joined some new clubs, and when finals rolled around he wasn't nearly so clingy. They are now back in a relationship and she has fallen in love with him all over again apparently lol.

David Riley's picture

College Relationships


Hey Anon,

I had a similar encounter with a girl, my freshmen year in college. She was dating a very artsy boyfriend and was very clingy. She on the other hand, was a heavy flirt such a heavy flirt she was almost reluctant to tell me of her man. Her dorm suite was right next to mine and I would see her often. We would go get food in the dining halls, and she would tell me how weak of a man she thought he was. At the time I was like damn. I didn't have a real interest in her because I knew at the game my game wasn't strong enough. She would come over my room a couple times with friends, and I would feel her body up as time went on. Even got a kiss at a time. I would tell her I only thought she was being and nice to avoid a pitfall.

Long story short, she broke up with the dude, and started checking out all her options. She was relentless. Her boyfriend was in shambles and she took him back for some reason of pity. It didn't last long cause she dumped him again. Apparently he cheated on her. The ironic part was she was cheating on him the whole time. He saw me as a threat, but I told him I was the least of his problems.

Just Dave

Anonymous's picture

Sigh. I think Will Smith puts


Sigh. I think Will Smith puts it quite eloquently in Pursuit of Happyness when he tells his son (also real son in real life), "You want something? Go get it."

That quote has resonated with me for quite a while now. Gurus of self-improvements at large pow-wows often do the following to make a very strong point: they ask the audience if they want a $100. Of course many people say yes. Then the presenter takes out actual cash and say: You want it? Come get out.

At this point, many people chicken out. Only a small handful actually walk up to the stage in front of thousands of people and get it.

So, this article is a "brain-sneak" in the sense that if we want something, we have to absolve others of blame and know that we ourselves are responsible for our own fates (freeing ourselves from the victim mentality), and we have to go get it. If we want to start a business and make it successful, we have to go get it. If we want a girl, we have to go get it.

Now, go get it!

David Riley's picture

Exactly


Hey Anon,

That's the biggest thing that a lot of guys don't realize, making moves instead of waiting around. Life is all about risks at times, and many times those "risks" can reap huge rewards. People are afraid of challenges and failing so they never attempt to. Or like you put it they chicken out. When you actually seek to make things happen you feel more in control of your life. Life can become very boring and mundane waiting for opportunities to happen. Life is a lot more interesting as a go-getter.

Just Dave

90210's picture

Chase, do you think the book


Chase, do you think the book "Men are from Mars, Women from Venus"
is accurate in (long term) relationships?
I had a look at it and disapproved with some stuff cause it sometimes emphasizes
on being fully committed to your partner, which I don't think is the best thing to do.

Chase Amante's picture

Men are from Mars, Women from Venus

Author

90210-

Haven't read it! So can't really say. If I'm not totally shooting in the dark, I think the main premise is "men and women think about things very differently", in which case I'd say that's very accurate in many situations. Men and women are a lot of like in a lot of ways, but some of the things that men value most (respect, honor, keeping your word, etc.) are very different from the things women value most (affection, support, masculinity, etc.).

Chase

90210's picture

Yeah, the book explains a lot


Yeah, the book explains a lot about how men and women
think in situations and how they react.
It provides a detailed understanding of the male and female mind, as well as,
things to do to score points with your partner.
I guess you can give it a try though the book gets quite boring at times ;)

90210

Kody's picture

Hi Chase and Dave, in all


Hi Chase and Dave,
in all your articles, you have always stated the importance
of eye contact and covered several posts , the last one being "...make your eye contact piercing.."
My problem with eye contact is that my eyes are not "sexy".
My eyes are bored and expressionless, even a warm smile looks odd...
Not so good, right? You have got my point and please help me out.
What would you do if it you were stuck with this annoying problem?

David Riley's picture

Movies and Emotional Thought


Hey Kody,

Here's the thing when looking at something or somebody, you want to look at them with the emotion you want them to feel. If you want someone to feel fear, look at them if fear. If you want a girl to look at you and "Damn, you are sexy." Look at her with a look of "I'm about to rip your clothes off." When you put emotion behind your stares as well as matching facial expressions, its a powerful tool. If you need help getting the fundamentals of those looks, movies are your best bet. You can learn a lot about having an emotional stare. Facial expression often says what our words don't. This is why women won't believe every man when he claims to be an alpha.

For sexy looks I would recommend James Bond.
For funny/witty looks Robert Downey Jr.
Brad Pitt is another good example for sexy

Remember to relax your face and practice in the mirror. Don't think so hard and just let the emotions come to you. You have to feel it and not force it. When you try to force a smile, it never comes out right. Practice smiling whenever you can. I remember I you to walk with a grimace when I was a teenager. I remember spending time practicing smiling and it worked. Girls became more receptive of me and people wanted to be around me more. Hope that helps.

Take care,

Just Dave

Kody's picture

Thanks for the reply ! I'm


Thanks for the reply !
I'm going to definitely work on theses!

Anonymous's picture

Is it possible to fix aloofness in others, by changing myself?


How do I fix aloofness both in myself and in others? Most other people I interact with I seem to get a cold, aloof, distant, intimidated kind of feel. Even if I smile and do my best to be warm, I still get that feeling of suspicion and/or intimidation. Leading the conversation is certainly something that I have to do almost all the time...

Maybe because I didn't grow up in America, I have a subconscious expectation that conversation with people should be warm and engaging, and that if I sense any coldness or aloofness that I should get away from the conversation because I'm bothering the person...but maybe since so many people around me act this aloof way maybe my expectations of how others should react to me is wrong...and I need to tamp them down.

Any tips on how I might fix what I might encountering (aloofness) ?

David Riley's picture

Connection and Link!


Hey Anon,

One of the best things I can tell about avoiding aloofness is to build a solid connection with people. One of the best ways to do that is by deep diving. When you talk to someone about a really strong interest they have, they open up. They become more relaxed and they become more at ease. People will talk all day when you talk to them about something they really care about. Another thing I would say is talk to people about yourself. Find ways to relate to them. When you find common ground, it lessens the chance of aloofness.

Here's a helpful article on handling aloofness in women.
Handling female Aloofness

Take care,

Just Dave

wow's picture

hmm........


Dude, seriously have to disagree with you here. The analogies you give are false, misleading and contorted. The dude seeking to become a billionaire knows he is take a huge risk, with low probability of success, i.e., he understand the risk reward trade off. He is different to the million of drones who seek the safe, secure, steady well paying job (nothing wrong with those types). Zuckerberg owns a quarter (?) of Facebook, he doesn't share it equally with every person even remotely involved in its creation or development. Sheryl Sandberg doesn't get as much because she came late and didn't partake in the risk.

The dude who gets his high school diploma - same thing. He and he alone gets the benefit of his diploma - he doesn't share the benefits with the teacher or principal. You did the work, you took charge, you get the results - fair enough.

The reason people in leadership positions get more is the relationship between power and responsibility - more risk, more responsibility, greater rewards for getting it right. Whether the CEO or the captain of the team, prestige, decision maker power, money, salary etc all accrue as a result. LIve by the sword....the tradeoff is understood.

So if we extend that to a relationship (which you are doing) can you honestly say that the 'captain of the ship' (the man) is getting more benefits in a relationship as a result? What does a man get from a relationship? How does it compare to what women desire? We all know women have more biologically based needs than men - and its rawest, resources, emotional support, his seed, a man gets his sexual needs met and passes on his genes. Day to day in real life, women have a myriad of modern needs more than a man. Its indisputable, you know this.

Further, in society today, culture, media, law are firmly on a woman's side. Women are constantly encouraged to be entitled and follow their base desires. Women initiate 2/3 of divorces and almost universally get legal custody of children, not to mention sympathy and support of friends family and society. Previously men had an incentive and motivation to 'man up' and take charge, because there was an effective counterbalance - society rewarded them and protected this inherent biological law of nature.

Yes you should go after what you want, but where's the motivation? Where are the additional benefits accruing to you as 'captain' of the ship? Due to women's hypergamy, this effort is the bare minimum required simply to get what you want. In doing so, her greater needs are met. In event of relationship finishing, women will instinctively blame men regardless of what you do, in part due to innate biology, but also to preserve their position in social hierarchies and politics.

What you are saying is like sacking the coach because the players failed to perform? Yeah, its the easier call to make, but their is only so much the coach can do, he's not out their on the field. Women are not automatons, they have some agency. To flip the script, what if a man cheats - is this women's fault, or do men have agency to control themselves?

I really think you lose credibility with articles like this. It feels that you only write these to justify men's constant effort (and thus, reinforce the existence of girlschase).

Chase Amante's picture

Analogies / Motivations / Paradigms

Author

Wow-

“So if we extend that to a relationship (which you are doing) can you honestly say that the 'captain of the ship' (the man) is getting more benefits in a relationship as a result? What does a man get from a relationship?”

Actually, yes.

You may not UNDERSTAND what these are at first blush, but if this was not the case, men would be the ones initiating all the breakups and divorces out there… when in fact women file 70%+ of the divorce cases and probably initiate 80%+ of non-married breakups. The very nature of that statistic states “the average woman takes less value from a relationship than the average man” - otherwise, they’d be hanging onto those relationships desperately and it’d be the men filing all the divorces and initiating all the breakups.

There’s also things like the length of the rebound/recovery period (longer for average man than for the average woman) and levels of romanticness vs. practicalness (on average, men are a fair bit more romantic and less practical about their relationships than women) that speak to men’s stronger need for relationships (on average) than women.

We can speculate on why this is… but perhaps that’s for another post.

“Yes you should go after what you want, but where's the motivation? Where are the additional benefits accruing to you as 'captain' of the ship?”

You’re confusing the purpose of this article.

This article is not a “Here’s what you should want!” article where I tell you what you should be after. I don’t write articles like that, nor do I concern myself with what other people “should” want. People want what they want.

This article is a “If you want to ensure your relationship is a healthy one, here’s how you do that” article.

Kinda like if I wrote an article called “How to install a carburetor and not have it break down” and someone replied “Why should I even install a carburetor - I ride a bike!?!?” Answer —> link him to the article on how to maintain bicycle gears instead. Mayhap he stumbled onto the wrong post.

”What you are saying is like sacking the coach because the players failed to perform? Yeah, its the easier call to make, but their is only so much the coach can do, he's not out their on the field. Women are not automatons, they have some agency. To flip the script, what if a man cheats - is this women's fault, or do men have agency to control themselves?”

If the coach is in charge of both coaching AND recruiting, and his performance is assessed over a long enough period (maybe 5 to 6 years?) then YES.

If all he does is coach and he’s been with the team 2 years, that’s not a fair comparison, because he has no control over the players he gets, and hasn’t had enough drafts and free agency cycles to bring in the players he wants anyway.

In a relationship, the man picks the woman he’s in that relationship with - he recruits his team from scratch. And after that, the team follows his game plan (or, if he’s a crappy coach, rebels against his game plan and ignores it).

If a coach picks an entire team from scratch and lays out the game plan for that team, and the team goes belly up over the course of three seasons in a row, while each of the players of course should continue to examine his own performance and look for weak spots to correct and strengths to enhance, if I’m the one running the team it’s not the tight end I’m worried about - it’s the coach who put the whole team and playing strategy together from scratch in the first place.

As for the woman’s responsibility for the man’s cheating - again, yes, she has responsibility there.

Men cheat either because they’re inveterate sex hounds and want to sleep with / inseminate other women, or because they’re not getting enough attention at home. While I’d encourage men to be responsible for their own actions, just as I would women, ultimately, if a woman finds herself in a relationship with a cheating man, she needs to ask herself the same questions a man should be asking himself if he finds himself with a cheating woman: “How did I pick this person for a monogamous relationship in the FIRST place… and what did *I* do (or not do) that contributed to this outcome?”

“I really think you lose credibility with articles like this. It feels that you only write these to justify men's constant effort (and thus, reinforce the existence of girlschase).”

I’d be happy to lose credibility with anyone who wants to claim a passive role and wait for life to give him what he wants. Those people don’t make for good readers; they rarely/never buy anything; and they aren’t really the kinds of people you want in your life in any capacity regardless, because they mostly just mope, complain, and lament.

Anyway, you and I seem to be operating from different paradigms, Wow.

Mine is “I am an actor who acts upon the world.”

Yours appears to be “I am acted upon by the world.”

Those two paradigms will never see eye to eye, and especially the second will always feel dissonance dealing with the first, since he will fear being acted upon by him. There’s not really a solution for this - the latter can become an actor, or he can choose to insulate himself from actors, but those are really his only choices. The actor certainly will never go back to being a passive recipient of life’s random rewards and punishments; that’s far too boring a life once you’ve known what it is to control and direct your own life and outcomes, and you can’t exactly plug yourself back into the Matrix once you’re out regardless.

Chase

Danny's picture

Unfortunately, Chase is correct


Unfortunately, Chase is correct about the divorce rate. Here is a reliable link. I understand how you feel cuz I have been mislead by the mainstream's culture before I read girl chase. The mainstream advice's and cultures are fairytale & when I first discovered the reality is not what I known of, I got upset too. However, facts are facts....you can't live inside a matrix forever either, right?

http://www.divorce-lawyer-source.com/faq/emotional/who-initiates-divorce...

blogster's picture

absurd....


Just to follow up, this caught my eye:

“Put this thing on my back; and if it works out, give me the glory and the rewards, and if it doesn’t, the ignominy and the deserts.”

This is absurd. When, in the history of modern relationships, has this phrase been uttered, or even thought? Really? And what is the glory and rewards SPECIFICALLY? I am genuinely curious so Id be interested to hear. Do you get a quarterly bonus from your woman? And how do this compare to what the woman gets (whose needs are higher)?

In the most formalised form of relationship (marriage), the punishment (as seen by women initiating 2/3rds of divorces) is half your assets and custody of your children. Is this really a risk worth taking when 40=50 percent of marriages end in divorce? I'd like you to respond to this also. In less legalised relationships, she can simply find a better deal.

Women want you to do more, be more in non-casual relationhips...but for their benefit. Women by nature can't see equilibrium, they seek dis=equilibrium.

Chase Amante's picture

Excellent Relationships / Standards / Endings

Author

Blogster-

"This is absurd. When, in the history of modern relationships, has this phrase been uttered, or even thought? Really? And what is the glory and rewards SPECIFICALLY? I am genuinely curious so Id be interested to hear. Do you get a quarterly bonus from your woman? And how do this compare to what the woman gets (whose needs are higher)?”

Have you ever led a truly outstanding, EXCELLENT relationship with an extremely desirable, all-around elite woman?

There are things more rewarding in life than leading an excellent relationship with an excellent woman exceedingly well, but neither is this an insignificant victory.

No one is doing any comparison to what the woman gets. You’re analyzing from a “justice mentality” perspective, which is unrelated to anything in the article. I did not discuss what the woman gets from the relationship, nor what is required of her. There are plenty of other articles on this website that deal with this:

This is about what is required from YOU, IF you want the most excellent relationships you can muster.

"In the most formalised form of relationship (marriage), the punishment (as seen by women initiating 2/3rds of divorces) is half your assets and custody of your children. Is this really a risk worth taking when 40=50 percent of marriages end in divorce? I'd like you to respond to this also. In less legalised relationships, she can simply find a better deal.”

This also has nothing to do with the article. If I’m reading your comment correctly, the message is, “Marriage is too risky, so it’s better to go your own way.” That’s a life choice, and everyone’s entitled to his own. This article is for men who want relationships with women, and want them to be excellent.

The “threat” of marriage is also mainly one for, again, men who have never learned to lead. Why is it that the men you see get utterly screwed in divorce/alimony/custody court - P. Diddy, Tiger Woods, etc. - are paper tigers you KNOW from watching them on screen get bossed around by their women, whereas men who are genuine leaders in their relationships - e.g., Donald Trump (while his first divorce was poorly handled at the outset, he made out okay at the end, and learned from the experience) - come out of these with both far more favorable terms AND (often) warm to very warm relations with their exes?

It’s not coincidence. I’ve done divorce - it was nothing but a pleasant experience. This is leadership too - leadership in the end is every bit as important as leadership in the middle of a thing. The men who do not cultivate the ability to lead find themselves picked over by the vultures, and usually have selected as partners entirely the wrong kinds of women in the first place anyway.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Follow-Up


Thanks, but deep-diving only works for me to a point. My experience is while deep-diving might get a person to open up and become warm in a given interaction, I still have to take the initiative usually to make people warm with me again.

For some reason unless the person themselves is a confident operator I have to take the initiative 9.9 times out of 10 to go make someone who I deep-dived and had good conversation with warm again. Even though they sometimes take initiative with other people...I see it with coworkers, neighbors, and even some women I've picked up. Like if I reach out to them first then they're warm and want to talk, but if I don't take initiative it's a cold/aloof/indifferent type of treatment. It's like it's expected that I initiate.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from people, but I've been used to other people taking initiative some of the time when I was young and not in USA, but I feel as I upgrade my fundamentals: my confident and dominant posture/looks; my frame control, and so on, as a result, nearly no one I encounter (unless they're quite confident) takes any initiative to talk to me first. Some girls like I've picked up clearly like talking to me, and respond nearly 2-3 seconds after I text, but if I fail to text them first they never reach out at all, but if I text them first to meetup then they're all for it.

My question is, is it expected that as a seducer that you must take 99% of the initiative to go and generate conversation/excitement with other people? Vs having them come to you some of the time?

Maybe some Americans are just more passive than I expect, I never stopped to think about it until recently...but as I gain more insight and understanding, I'm starting to notice some patterns.

David Riley's picture

Introvert vs Extrovert


Hey Anon,

Depending on if you're dealing with an extremely outgoing person, you will have to initiate most of your interactions. Unless people are genuinely instructed to interact with strangers, they don't. Most Americans allow they do crave affection and community have been conditioned to stay to themselves. We've been told "Don't talk to strangers." from a young age. This makes sense to tell a six year old so they don't get kidnapped. However, adults don't understand that it's okay for them to interact with other adults and people for that matter. People are to caught in their own lives to have a true interaction at times. People think, "I got all these virtual friends, I don't need new friend."

Other people like myself enjoy interacting with new people. I say to people on the street and greet them in a warm manner. It all comes down to if you're meeting a shy person or not. I've had some people come up and interact with me, or chat to me while in line, its nice. Now sometimes I don't feel like being bothered and let the conversation die off. It's nothing against the person, I could be tired, hungry, or cranky. People moods fluctuate quite often for no reason at all. I wouldn't take it personally.

Take care,

Just Dave

Anonymous 's picture

This is bull


We men have to spend all this time improving ourselves, and what do women have to do? NOTHING! I don't care if you say "life is not fair" blah blah blah, it's still bullsh*t.

Even the guys over at ReturnofKings think that it's ridiculous:

"They say that we’re pathetic; which admittedly, we are. We spend hundreds if not thousands of hours trying to increase our sexual appeal to women, learning how to best utilize our looks, learning how women think and how best to make a pleasing impression upon their minds. In short, we who practice game dedicate a good portion of our limited time on this Earth trying to please women, which really is pathetic compared to what a woman has to do to ‘game’ men; essentially just be thin and show up."

Zac's picture

You're right.


You probably right.

Women are ridiculous, but hey, if you built yourself to be a high quality male, Just don't ever get married and settle for a less deserving women. You don't see Lewis Hamilton having a relationship with somebody from the streets!

Have your standards. :) If you want to get married or do what most famous people do (do not get married), have a child and divorce her at 30. Then remarry. Protect your assets.

You must remember that she's trying to do a good job by illusioning you for resources. It's the same thing for men, by seducing women, too. It's biology, you know. :)

Zac

David Riley's picture

At Least you Know


Hey Anon,

I know how you feel, and the bettering yourself is a long and tedious position. The thing about it is at least you know what women want. A lot of guys lives their whole lives and die never knowing. No one ever said getting girls was easy, but it does become easier overtime. It's like any other skill, it comes down to how bad do you want it. To the best you lose sleep, you go crazy, and you want to cuss people out from time to time. Growing is hard and incredibly painful at times. I've personally been hitting the gym to bigger and stronger. Honestly it sucks, but lately I've been seeing results and women checking me out.

It's ironic because I started lifting weights again to attract women, now I just want to look good for myself. When you're out working hard focus on hard bad you want to get better. When you want success as bad as you want to breathe, you'll get it. You're in a different league then most guys. See you're getting mad and frustrated, but you haven't quit. Here's the thing, women can only get so high in the hierarchy. Women bitch and complain about the men you can't have. The crazy thing is one day you wake up and you are that man.

Stay focused and encouraged,

Just Dave

Chase Amante's picture

Advice for Women

Author

Anonymous-

You appear to have read a different article, or not read this one.

There is nothing in this article that remotely suggests what women should or should not do. As for my personal sentiment on the matter, selection of the right partner is TREMENDOUSLY important... which is why we have (and I personally have) devoted so many articles to exactly this:

Regardless, this article is an instructional article for men, NOT for women.

If this was menchase.com, I would be laying out for women all the things they have to do to keep a man. That is NOT what this website is, however.

I will refer you here for what you are apparently searching for - lots of instructional articles here for women on how they may best act in relationships to ensure healthy relationships and retain the men of their dreams:

Chase

Mickey's picture

BULL +1!!!


The anonymous poster is right. It is nothing but an exercise in futility trying to meet women when most women are hostile and will not give a guy the time of day.

Chase Amante's picture

Futility

Author

Mickey-

Sounds like you need to get out more.

Chase

Mickey's picture

MYTH!


Or, maybe the lie that "there's somebody for everybody" is just that.

Franco's picture

It is a Lie


There's MORE than just "a" somebody for everyone. I can name three women off the top of my head that would make great lifetime partners, if a lifetime partner is what I wanted at this point in my life.

It's a numbers game, so you need to get out more.

- Franco

Mickey's picture

Ain't happening


It's not a question of getting out more. I've only stopped looking for something that just isn't there.

Anonymous old guy's picture

this plus Cody's white knight taking GC to leadership o Mansphre


Thanks, keep going

Next: if you succeed how to LTR and stay game hot...

Xeno's picture

Great article


Hey Chase,

Quite frankly i''m shocked by the critical comments attached to this article. Maybe negative comments such as the one's above occur frequently but get moderated. Whatever the case may be, this is a top shelf article.

You're an unconventional voice in a forum (the internet) where the same talking points get mimed by almost everyone. The bureaucracies think that a system will save us. See No Child Left Behind, etc. But unless education is hitched to desire (knowledge to sex), the plans will fail, men won't be formed. GC is the only cite I know of which attempts to address this massive oversight. Please continue to create these kinds of articles.

Xeno

David Riley's picture

Doses of Reaility


Hey Xeno,

Glad to have some awesome feedback, one of the things that I admire is seeing a full range of comments on the comment section. It really helps distinguish the guys who want to make their own progress vs. the guys that want handouts. Sometimes guys are just frustrated and come here to vent. As mad as I may be about something, I'm personally always looking for a way to improve myself. No one ever told me life would be easy. It was actually "Life is hard and will attempt to tear you down, but you can either let it or battle against it." I've enjoyed my good moments and hard some challenging ones as well. I remember to keep the perspective though that everyone has challenges. This keeps me grounded and to keep moving forward to always get better at what I'm doing.

Edit:

I would also add that it's hard to hear that a relationship failed because of something "you" did. However, I love hearing that because it keeps me from making the same mistake twice. I use to date the same type of girl over and over, until one day I got sick of it. I started screening girls extra hard and wouldn't date just anyone. I was able to have happier relationships with higher quality girls. It was awesome to be able to have a high quality girlfriend I could vibe with and not fight with as much. It gave us less headaches. If the relationship came to an end, I wouldn't mope about it. I would be happy it happened and go find another awesome girl.

Take care,

Just Dave

Anonymous's picture

Leadership is good but I don't always feel like I should have to


I get all of this leadership stuff from a logical stand point. I know I have to lead... in the beginning before I get her as my woman, I have to be persistent and aggressive if need be.

But from an emotional stand point one thing I realized recently, is that sometimes I feel like I shouldn't have to always be leading some independent woman around. Because before she met me she was perfectly able to make her own decisions. I feel like I don't derive a emotional reward to continue to lead certain women around. I know someone has to step up to the plate and assume responsibility to make things happen. But for women that I am lukewarm about, but they don't AMAZE me, I don't feel like these kinds of women will notice my leadership abilities and say to me "god you're a good leader, god you're masculine and I love your dominance and planning ability." I feel like a lot of women don't realize that it's a lot of effort that goes in to being a good decision maker/energy bringer, and what they don't know they can't comment on, or even if they did know all the hard work that it takes to be a good leader, they don't say anything.

They get to sit back while I try to make life more effortless for them... and maybe this is just what a man has to do these days to get girls... I don't think it's fair.

I know logically that if I fail to lead (and this is a constant thing) what usually happens is the relationship tends to wither and die. Women are waiting on a man's initiative and really do respond to a man's energy. Only the rare girl repeatedly comes up with ideas on her own initiative to go check out cool places or whatever. Most women I meet tho live boring lives (even though they try to tell you otherwise) and seem to respond well to a man who is the bringer of energy, venues, excitement. They come along for the ride...

While I don't mind being THE energy bringer of the situation, I have the kind of subconscious functionality where I only WANT to do it for a woman that amazes me... for all other women, it just becomes a sex/conversation situationship. If she wants to hang out somewhere besides her place or mine, then she'd better tell me otherwise I don't care to ask (most of the time unless I actually want to take her somewhere with me). I guess I feel like I am giving away a part of my personality (leadership and the value it brings) to a woman that isn't deserving of it...

I might like the time we spend together but if she doesn't amaze me I don't care to lead. That's the best I can explain this emotional phenomenon that I've just started to notice. Maybe you can help me with this...

Have you guys ever discussed/looked at how/why a man would feel incentivized to actually lead a woman (in areas besides making sex happen: e.g. as hanging out in cool places, going on trips, setting the tone for the relationship, and so on.)?

Maybe the answer to my worries is simply screen out all women but the ones who AMAZE me and then my problem will go away. The problem I am finding though is as I work on self-improvement more, and as I meet dozens of women, most girls I meet just don't amaze me. I'm like meh most of the time... and a man still has to get some pussy even if what he's finding isn't AMAZING...

Franco's picture

Answered Your Own Question


Anon,

Was going to reply to this one, but you answered your own question:

Maybe the answer to my worries is simply screen out all women but the ones who AMAZE me and then my problem will go away. The problem I am finding though is as I work on self-improvement more, and as I meet dozens of women, most girls I meet just don't amaze me. I'm like meh most of the time... and a man still has to get some pussy even if what he's finding isn't AMAZING...

Chase emphasizes that you should only be in relationships with the women who ARE truly amazing. If you feel at all "lazy" and "indecisive" about whether or not you want to spend time with a given woman, then she is not amazing, and you probably shouldn't invest more time in her other than inviting her over for some casual sex for the night (if that's what you want and if that's what she's okay with).

They get to sit back while I try to make life more effortless for them... and maybe this is just what a man has to do these days to get girls... I don't think it's fair.

If you think that high caliber women really just sit back and do nothing, then you really have no idea what it is high caliber women will do for a genuinely amazing man who can lead.

My current girlfriend cooks for me, buys me gifts, plays video games with me, and accompanies me to just about ANY "boring" sport event that I choose because of the amount of respect she has for me and my leadership qualities. Here's a good quote from me:

"The amount of effort a girl invests in a relationship with you is directly proportional to the amount of leadership qualities she sees in you."

This can be rather ironic, too, because the more she sees you as a "leader," the more she'll actually want to TAKE the lead to do things to PLEASE you so that you'll continue to lead her through a happy relationship.

On top of doing all of the aforementioned things, girls who keep themselves attractive will continue to hit the gym, stay tan, and wear attractive clothing because they want to keep YOU around.

As a general statement to all of the comments above that have negative opinions about relationships with women: you have to first understand what it's like to run a relationship as a leader and correctly from the start to understand what it's like to have a high caliber woman invest MORE effort than you do in the relationship. If you've ever seen a relationship where it seems like the guy is an asshole and seems to pay little attention to his girlfriend while his girlfriend does just about EVERYTHING to keep him around, then you've seen what it's like to have a girl respect you as a dominant man and a leader in a relationship. Until you've experienced an attractive, amazing girl doing just about everything for you (including, but not limited to, cleaning, cooking, dressing sexy, working out, going to events that you want to go to, buying you gifts, etc.), then you have no idea what it is like to run a successful relationship. Your experience with "failed" relationships has led you astray in your thinking about what control you have in the relationship -- and if that is the case, then I feel sorry for you. You are missing out on one of the best experiences you can possibly have in life.

- Franco

Anonymous's picture

Thanks for the reply...


Thanks for your words. You said you have a girl that cooks for you, buys you gifts, plays video games with you, and accompanies you to just about ANY "boring" sport event that you choose. This is great, it's good to have a girl that does this.

But for me, these things are the minimum that a girl that likes me should do because she wanted to make me happy. What the real problem for me that I'm finding is, and Chase has spoken about this before in his "3 Flavors of Sexy: Brooding, Smooth, and Talkative Vibes" article is that girls (even those who may be classified as so-called "high-caliber" and desired by many other men) may feel deeply connected to me, but many times I feel only the slightest of connections to them. And this is something that I did not expect to have happen to me.

And when I feel little to no connection with a woman, no matter how amazing a logical choice she might be, I just don't FEEL AMAZED or EXCITED in my heart. And then I get bored after a while...and more willing to walk away if she starts any shit.

What I've found that amazes me, though, is someone with the kind of personality where she can go above and beyond the ordinary by introducing some unpredictability and excitement and uncertainty and teaching me new things, new ideas, new phenomena. To make me wonder, to be a creative type. For example, a woman could excite me by sometimes proactively coming up with cool ideas of what we should/could do and can take the "lead" a little bit on occasion to make it happen. For me it's the uncertainty of what she's gonna do next that excites me...and makes me say to myself, I really dig this girl's style.

I find that when I have to be the energy source, the one who goes to the cool places, the one who is the more fun one of the relationship, the one who provides the excitement, the one who deep dives more often than not, I get bored after a while. I say to myself exactly how am I learning/benefiting profoundly from this situation? Most girls I meet, even if they have good careers and are ambitious (there's alot of ambitious women in my city), most of these career girls tend to live boring lives (even though many'd disagree and swear their life is the most special one around) and seem to respond best to the man (out of all the potentials) who is the most fun and exciting...who leads and she "follows."

Maybe I'm just different than most people I meet in terms of how my emotions function, but I end up getting bored really fast these days...I guess I feel I don't really need people, especially since I've been thru and overcame alot of traumatic experiences (aftermaths of natural disasters, robbers, killers, like some real scary shit) and I have to constantly put myself in check to not listen to my emotions telling me to cut a person off, to give 'em a chance, to see their positive side even if I find them less than awe-inspiring.

I auto-reject fast (in part because this part of America that I live in is filled with tons of intolerant women), and I have to keep pulling myself back to center because if I were to just listen to my emotions, I'd just cut out after a woman starts making "mistakes." Or I'd stop providing most others with the kind of value I provide them (excellent convo, invitations to cool places, a very good listening ear, an adventurous mind to go explore and learn about new places/topics/culture/art, etc). Patience and tolerance is something that I've had to learn to have... so even I may stick around with a woman that I don't feel all that connected to.

But my real desire is to find a woman that makes me FEEL alive and energized and connected.

Anyway thanks for your words.

Franco's picture

Girls Are No Different


Anon,

Your issue is here:

I find that when I have to be the energy source, the one who goes to the cool places, the one who is the more fun one of the relationship, the one who provides the excitement, the one who deep dives more often than not, I get bored after a while.

Well, guess what the issue is here? Girls feel exactly the same way. The problem with roles in society is that the man is ALWAYS expected to be the one to lead when it comes down to the nitty gritty. The most adventurous women aren't looking for non-adventurous men to MAKE adventurous; they are looking for men who are even MORE adventurous than them and can take them on a journey they couldn't do themselves!

It's an entitlement issue if you feel like the woman has to be the one to lead in the relationship. I don't think you completely understand how little effort there is on my part to lead this relationship because it's just burnt into my personality. For individuals who don't have that natural leadership quality, they are going to be fighting a constant uphill battle against the men that are actually attractive to women -- the ones who lead and take them on exciting, unexpected adventures.

Now, that's not to say that your desire to not lead women is all that bad if you aren't looking for a long-term relationship. If you really don't want to lead women constantly (besides to the bedroom), then having one-night stands or flings is probably something that suits your personality and style. If you're wanting a girlfriend, then you need to accept the responsibility that comes with having (an amazing) one.

In a more extreme light, here's what it sounds like you're asking for:

"I want to own and drive a Ferrari, but I don't want to have to make payments for it."

We would all like to own a Ferrari, of course, but we can't expect it to just fall into our laps and stay there without putting any effort into it.

As a final note, it COULD just be that you still haven't met some truly amazing women that inspire you to keep them around. To put it in perspective, I was approaching women, on average, 1-2 days a week every weekend for an entire year before I met my girlfriend. If you're expecting to find these types of women every other time you go out, then you're setting your expectations too high. Instead, when I was single, my mantra would be: "I'm going to find an extremely sexy woman to have sex with tonight. If she ends up being absolutely amazing girlfriend material, then that's even better."

- Franco

Anonymous's picture

Entitlement is expecting to


Entitlement is expecting to get something (because of some inherent right) without expending the required energy, time, hard work in return. This is not my problem.

Your point about "the most adventurous women aren't looking for non-adventurous men to MAKE adventurous" makes sense...adventurous women have cool ideas and maybe the women I've been finding aren't as adventurous as I'd like and that's why I get bored.

It's not a leadership issue, it's I like to sometimes seek novel situations to learn something new from. I have no problem in expending the required effort and stepping up and leading and deciding and choosing ALL the time. But if I am expending the required effort for a woman, and providing value to her life to make her happy, I get bored after a while if she doesn't or can't return the same or better value in kind on occasion (can be 1/5 of the time).

Why? Because I like to be able to respond to another person's energy and build off of other's perspectives, ideas, thoughts, desires, wants. I like to learn something from a person that I probably wouldn't have ever learned had I not interacted with them. So if I am ALWAYS the one who always comes up with the adventurous ideas of what to do/try, who chooses, who decides, and I ALWAYS do things my way, then to me I'm not learning nearly as much as I would be learning as compared to a situation where a woman comes up with some of her own ideas too... and even better if she can make things happen on occasion.

It's still leadership if you allow someone else to come up with an idea and to do their idea instead of one of yours. Because it's still a choice that you make as a leader to do an idea; either it's one of yours, or one of what the other person wants to do. As leader it's your job to see the benefit/risks in various ideas, even those that are much different than your own.

Anyways, I see what the problem is. Thank you!

Franco's picture

Final Words


@Anon:

But if I am expending the required effort for a woman, and providing value to her life to make her happy, I get bored after a while if she doesn't or can't return the same or better value in kind on occasion (can be 1/5 of the time).

As a last note here, this is fine. As long as you are the one who ultimately is leading most of the time, then that's all that really matters, especially when it comes to drama and relationship issues. Also, if you're finding women that won't take the initiative to come up with things at least 1/5 of the time, then it sounds like you've just been with some pretty mundane ones.

As a good example, my girlfriend wanted to go to a convention that really excited her last weekend, and she had suggested it a week or two before that. I decided it would be new, fun, and different. I agreed to go, and we booked a hotel room by the venue in advance and spent the weekend together doing something new, and it was a great time. The only reason she did this though is that she really loves and respects me, and she wants to keep the flame going as long as possible. When this happens, she'll go out of her way to make the relationship grow and last as long as possible. =)

@Boyo:

All of the things a girl does for me is just an added bonus of being in a relationship with an amazing women -- it is not the primary reason. Amazing women bring something new to the table that most women don't, and what you consider to be "amazing" can very well be different from what I consider amazing. She might have a lot of experience in a hobby that you share an interest in, or maybe her sense of humor is exactly like yours, and you can constantly be sharing inside jokes with each other. It might even be that she's just superior to all other women in the bedroom, and having sex with her for a long period of time trumps picking up new women that don't show much enthusiasm in the bedroom.

It's really a matter of having some personal connections with a specific girl that are unique and match your own. These girls generally are hard to find, but when you do, they can actually be very easy to bed because THEY usually feel the connection with you, too. Of course, the issue that arises here sometimes is that some guys get TOO infatuated with the connection before they actually close, and then they take things too slowly and never seal the deal, causing the girl to either (A) lose interest or (B) boyfriend-zone the guy and never sleep with him, ultimately never leading to a relationship (except in very rare cases).

- Franco

African boyo's picture

a quick question


Hi franco

Theres alot of great takeaways from your comments and chases article is true about the responsibility of leading lying with the man however i have one question,and maybe this can be explored in a future article,what does a man gain from a relationship besides being cooked for and receiving sex. I mean you can get cooked and cleaned for by a maid and if youre a high value guy sex is harder to turn down than obtain. It seems to me that relationships are there to be provide a stablr source of sex when your skills are not really up to a decent level. Thats just my opinion. Hopefully you have another perspective and can enlighten me as to the tangible benefits you get from a relationships

Franco's picture

Boyo, seem my response above


Boyo, see my response above to Anon for an answer to your question as well.

- Franco

luc's picture

assholes are rarely great leaders


[i]if you've ever seen a relationship where it seems like the guy is an asshole and seems to pay little attention to his girlfriend while his girlfriend does just about EVERYTHING to keep him around, then you've seen what it's like to have a girl respect you as a dominant man and a leader in a relationship[/i]

I find the choice of your words interesting.

I think it was a staple of this website that "asshole" is a step lower than a mature, very socially calibrated man.

I would think that an "asshole" would have more difficulties in keeping an amazing woman around.

Franco's picture

You are correct, Luc.


luc,

I think it was a staple of this website that "asshole" is a step lower than a mature, very socially calibrated man.

You are correct; an asshole IS a step down from a very confident, socially calibrated and genuine man. The point of this wording was to show that an "asshole" is a step up from a nice guy, or a guy who won't lead. Here is the scale from left to right (worst to best):

Unconfident Nice Guy -> Unconfident Asshole -> Confident Nice Guy -> Confident Asshole -> Confident Genuine Man

As you can see, "Confident Asshole" is still above the rest of your options, but "Confident Genuine Man" is at the top of its class. Also, you'll notice that "asshole" is always one step above "nice guy."

I would think that an "asshole" would have more difficulties in keeping an amazing woman around.

Also very true. As a matter of fact, that is their biggest flaw. Although they generate huge attraction from women through their confidence and aloofness, they also eventually send women into full-rage auto-rejection at some point causing the girls to eventually break up with them. This is sometimes through cheating or just not providing enough of her basic needs to keep her happy.

Even THEN, it's actually easiest to get a girlfriend back if you were more aloof instead of more clingy (another example of "Asshole > Nice Guy"), but most assholes never learn where their mistakes are (or care to learn), so they end up in an endless cycle of pissed off women and eventually settle for the (usually less amazing) ones who just put up with all of their shit. =)

- Franco

David Riley's picture

Complacency


I really like the conversation going on between Franco and Anon. I'm making my own comment separate as to not disrupt the flow of the conversation. I have but one observation. It seems to be a battle for most to not become complacent in a relationship with the girl. Most guys say to themselves, "I've done enough to win a girl over now I can rest and stop working so hard." Unfortunately, the woman normally sees this as the man losing interests. She may try to reignite his passionate flame that he once held for her. However, she will become disappointed and bored when her feelings aren't noticed. This is why women cheat and grow distant from their men. Some women may even initiate a break up to the surprise of their men. Women are creatures of change and despise when things become stagnant.

Men love when they establish order and can take a breather. Believe I enjoy conquering something and resting myself. However, I don't rest forever. I begin seeking my next challenge. I become thirsty for my next conquest, doesn't always apply to women. It can be anything for me music, my career, or even my writing. I don't make the girl my mission like some men attempt to do. I'll write poetry or take up a new skill. I recently went paddle boating for the first time, it gives me something to talk about. Women love when you're constantly trying to upgrade yourself. A man should always be looking for ways to improve himself. This separates the great men from the average men.

Just Dave

DM's picture

To All the Whiney Men


I just want say, everything I have ever read on this site is Gold. I check this site daily to see new articles. The fact is the authors on this site KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Some of it sounds unconventional because most of us guys are coming from flawed ways of thinking. We are told to be white knights, put them on pedestals, and make our needs come second to theirs. I was a pro at that lifestyle, and all I got was a slew of really close female friends. "You're like my brother!"

Becoming good with women is a skill. And like most skills you won't be a pro in the early stages. Chase himself mentions about how he was bad with women at first, and now I believe he's reached the ultimate goal.

The steps I have taken away from everything on this site is this:

1. Leave your ego at the door. Getting rejected isn't the best feeling, but you need to embrace it, and figure out why it happened. Instead of, "Girls don't give us the time of day." Figure out why. Maybe you're not as cool as you think you are. Fix that.
2. Seek knowledge, and know that you don't know everything, and don't just read stuff and take it to heart. TEST IT. ( BTW if you do it right, testing the stuff they say on here works...Fast too.)
3. Always be progressing. Set goals, and challenge yourself
4. NEVER, and I mean NEVER take what a women says to heart initially. For example, all of the girls I've hooked up with on the first date tell me they "Don't do that. It needs to mean something."...yeah
5. Handle your shit well when things don't go according to plan. A lot of times I'll fail with a girl, handle myself in a cool calm way, and she'll be like, "Wait a minute. What are you doing tomorrow night after all?"

Honestly though, you frustrated, fed up, white knights, "Why should I have to-" Type men are making it WAY EASY FOR ME TO HAVE SUCCESS. When women encounter me now they are excited, relieved, and damn near ready to follow me to the end of the Earth because I "Get them" Not the way popular media want's you to get them but the way THEY WANT YOU TO GET THEM....So As long as you guys are polluting the dating pool, I charge high rates for mine because it's not all that easy to find and they love it....And my pool is just getting better.

Thanks,

DM

David Riley's picture

Co-Sign


What DM says is gold and the example of what will come to anyone that sticks with the program. If you're expecting to read an article and go out have girls flock to you, you're living in a dream world. Anybody that has achieved success knows how hard it is. You have to work for it. The beginning stages of any new skill is rough. Instead of getting mad, learn as much as you can and practice. This is why I encourage men to get the basics down. When you get your fundamentals down, talking to women becomes so much easier for you. The only true failure is never to try. DM, I'm glad to hear about your success. Thanks for sharing your story.

Take care,

Just Dave

Anonymous's picture

Blame


Hey Chase. People always blame the leader if something goes wrong but if something goes right they will probably point out that they had something to do with it. So isn't blaming the leader a form of victim-mentality?? I think that a man should be a leader but I politely disagree that it's all the man's fault. Isn't the dynamic between a man and his people different than the dynamic with his woman? Because she is only one person and "his people" are multiple people. I think that the man has to take charge but the woman has to know how to follow. That is why if a relationship goes downhill it's both of their faults if they both wanted it to work out. For example, in soccer there is an offense and a defense. Clearly, the offense of a soccer team is leading and the defense comes into play only when the ball goes far enough. If the team loses, it's not just the fault of the offense but also of the defense. In reality, for a relationship to work both the man and the woman have to take the blame together. Because of the way society has conditioned women, most will take the blame, submit to men saying it is their fault and etc. In order for the relationship to work the man also has to admit he was wrong too and he is to blame too. However if you tell a man that's it both of their faults, in his mind he will still think "This still means it's her fault. I will just say that yes it's both of our faults to her to make her feel better." But he has to believe in his mind that it is also his fault. Most men will never admit they are wrong and most of this website's readers are men. I see why you would say that it is the man's fault. By reading this article on the Internet written by a successful fellow man and not hearing this from someone he knows, a man is more likely to think about and analyze his own deeds. At least the man who wants to self-improve and is open. So ultimately if the team loses, it is the fault of the whole team and each player has to turn his gaze on himself. Between any two people who fall apart, an argument begins with one thing but the other person continues it and keeps it rolling. It's a cycle. This is true even for children. Mature adults should be able to stop the cycle by both saying "I'm sorry it was my fault too. I said/did some things that were not the right things to say/do given the situation.

David Riley's picture

Responsibility without Consequence


Hey Anon,

While I agree with you sentiment for the most part, I will say most women want responsibility without consequence. When things fail no one wants to take the blame, they're constantly looking for a scapegoat. This is why women will blame men for the demise of the relationship. Even if she is 100% in the wrong as well as you being 100% in the wrong, she won't admit it. Now a lot of guys will say "Not all Women are Like That". While that is true it's an extremely small number. Like you mention in today's society women are the "victims". This is why they find it so easy to blame men. Women actually use to be more cooperative and share the blame with the man, and they generally got a long quite better. Regardless, a man still had to have a form of direction.

I wouldn't say blaming the leader is a victim mentality. Because the leader takes on sole responsibility for the success and failure of his ship. Now like you mentioned people will feel as though they helped the leader if he's successful. Very rarely do you see people stand by a leader if he fails. This is simply because no wants to be shamed for failing. This is why women admire strong men who can lead because they know what they are getting themselves into. Now ideally it is possible to run into a woman who admits she is wrong. It's very rare though. They genuinely help and support you. They want you to succeed and don't be you up for failing. Rather they thank you for trying.

Just my thoughts,

Just Dave

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