Breaking Rapport: You’ve Been Doing It Wrong


In "20 Ways to Talk to Women and Make It AMAZING", Flames requested an article on rapport - specifically, one on making it, and breaking it. Here's that part of his comment:

Oh and if we could have something on rapport, both making and breaking. I've had a few girls break rapport recently and it left me thinking wtf? :)

Regards
Flames

break rapport

Breaking rapport is a classic pickup technique for controlling the flow and direction of conversations. It's used as a sort of a "forced redirect" when things start traveling down a conversational road you don't want them to go down.

However, one of the ways it's traditionally been taught is to be used not purely as a redirect, but as a punishment for women who are being aloof, uncooperative, or trying to move things backwards.

There are more ways to use this, though, that both enhance the fun and energy of your conversations - and quickly get women qualifying themselves to you.

The focus in this article is mainly going to be on breaking rapport yourself - though if you're paying attention, most of the extinction examples we use later are really about dealing with women who break rapport with you, first - so we'll cover both sides of the coin about Flames's question about the subject in this one.

Let's see what they are.


break rapport

First off, an example of what standard rapport breaking looks like:

Her: What do you do for work? [boring question]

You: Are we really going to get into these boring questions? [redirect]

Her: [laughs] Okaaaaay... what would you like to talk about?

Something like this, actually, is not bad. In fact, this can be a really fun way to reroute a conversation and snap a woman out of autopilot.

Here's another of the more productive variety of ways to break rapport:

You: What do you do for fun?

Her: Mostly just chat with my friends on Snapchat or Instagram.

You: So in other words, you're a total gossip girl.

Her: [laughs] Yeah, I guess!

That's a rapport break - it's jarring, challenging, gets the girl to laugh at herself, but not unpleasant, and it's better than just about anything else you can do there.

All this is fine and dandy, and we'll go into how to do this properly later on in the article - and what precisely differentiates breaking rapport from making rapport.

But what I want to cover first is the habit of a lot of newer guys of using rapport breaks as efforts to punish - and often failing at it pretty badly.


Socially Inelegant Rapport Breaks

Here's what using rapport breaking to punish inelegantly looks like:

Her: Hold this for me?

You: Bad girl. I'll bet that works great with the nice guys who are desperate for your approval.

Her: [big smile] Sure does.

We'll talk about why that's bad in just a moment.

Here's another one:

Her: I don't like [black guys, white guys, Asian guys, tall guys, short guys, etc. - basically, something describing whatever you are].

You: Good thing too, because you and I would never work out.

Yeah... that's pretty awful a response as well.

Here's one more:

You: Let me have a sip of that drink?

Her: Sorry, I don't like sharing my drink with strangers.

You: Adorable. I'll bet you scare 95% of the guys off with that act.

*shivers*

Okay, let's talk why these are bad. If you have some sense of social intuition, you probably felt it - each of these is cringe worthy for various reasons.

If you're a social beginner and steeped in normal PUA tradition, you'll see examples like these used relentlessly by other beginners and think they are the way to go - they look close enough to what more advanced guys are doing, after all.

But there's actually a number of big differences between these "punishments" and what a guy with a firm handle on breaking rapport will do.

Here's what they are:

  1. He does not punish by complimenting her. Review the examples above; girl behaves bad, and guy responds by... complimenting her. Don't think so?

    1. In the first example he tells her men are desperate for her approval
    2. In the second example, he implies he was weighing her for a relationship
    3. In the third, he calls her "adorable" and implies lots of men chase her

    Each of the above examples contains emotional validation for the woman - she removes validation from the man, and he gives validation to her. This is the very definition of chasing women.

  2. He does not punish by giving more attention. Bad behavior is not countered by continuing to give women attention - all this is is leaning in while they lean away. Again, chasing.

  3. He does not punish by calling her pet names. Calling a girl "bad girl", "naughty girl", "troublemaker", "cute", "adorable", "sweetheart", or anything else like that is not a punishment - it's flirtation. And if you're flirting with her while she's insulting you or being difficult - yep... chasing again.

If you've been breaking rapport like this, it's time to quit doing it... because you're only shooting yourself in the foot with girls. When you break rapport this way, you get viewed as the "cute" one - the one who's just trying so hard and is so adorable in his persistence... that maybe she should be nice and admit him to the friend zone.

I see newer guys do this all the time, and they either get women who are disgusted with them ("Ugh, seriously?!") or women who are playing with them like cats and mice, flirting harmlessly with them and leading them right into just friends territory.

There are far more effective ways to use rapport breaking than this. But before we talk about them, you need to understand what it is we're trying to do, exactly, when we break rapport.


What Breaking Rapport is All About

break rapportAll breaking rapport is really about at the highest level are

  • Keeping things fresh, and

  • Keeping things moving in the direction you want them to go / avoiding tangents

The functional effects it has on women are

  1. Challenging women,

  2. Being unpredictable / unexpected, and

  3. Extincting bad behavior when it crops up

That's it - just those handful of things.

It is not about punishing bad behavior through actively challenging that behavior - we talked about this in "Operant Conditioning in Your Romantic Relationships" - if you punish through aversive stimuli (which is what those three inelegant examples of rapport breaking were doing above) using positive punishment here is reward a because it gives her attention... its effects are the opposite of what the punisher is hoping they will be.

Instead of being discouraged from behaving this way, she ends up feeling encouraged.

Rather than cutting and moving on from a negative thread, you've just amplified it.

Oops, right?

If you're getting bad behavior, yes, you want to discourage it - but positive punishment is not what you want, unless you are under clear and direct frontal attack. Anything shy of that, and you're probably just giving her what she wants - more attention and more validation.

The way we break rapport properly as a punishment is through extinction (another technique discussed in the operant conditioning article, and one we'll discuss more in this post)...

... and we can also use rapport breaks just generally to challenge women and be unpredictable throughout the course of a conversation without them being preceded by bad behavior beforehand (e.g., to accomplish other objectives in conversation, rather than purely as punishment).

The best way to think about a man using breaking rapport properly, in my mind, is as "the charming skeptic."


break rapport

Your average nice guy goes into conversation with a woman not daring to break rapport. His every conversational effort is to build rapport at all costs... even if that means looking fearful to challenge her, or in desperate need of her approval - which, often, he does.

The proportion of a conversation you devote to building rapport vs. breaking rapport is going to differ based on the girl, the situation, and what point you're at in talking to her - obviously, you'll be breaking a lot more when you're in the middle of playful banter than you will in the midst of pulling her home.

But you'll never be at 100% rapport building, even with the most submissive, delicate of women - even with them, you'll want to break a little rapport... even if you must take care to do so gently.


Broken Rapport as a Pattern Interrupt

When you break rapport, you break the thought pattern a woman was in prior to the point of breakage. She was expecting the conversation to continue going in a certain direction, and that she'd continue feeling - and continue amplifying - whatever she was feeling as things went along.

You will, therefore, be using rapport breaking as a means of getting off of topics and emotions that are not furthering the cause of the interaction, or have begun to stale - you break rapport in the interest of keepings things fresh, and keeping things moving.

An easy way of thinking about the mindset difference between the beginner who's using rapport breaking wrong, and the pro who's using it correctly, is this:

  • The beginner cares what the girl is thinking: he breaks rapport because he thinks it will up her attraction for him and further the interaction - and he also breaks it the wrong ways and for the wrong reasons, because he's trying to use it as a tool to make her like him more

  • The veteran cares about whether things are moving forward or not: he doesn't care about making her like him more - he's an attractive guy; he KNOWS she likes him, and anyway, whether she likes him or not is irrelevant - whether she'll invest in him and move through the interaction with him and set up a date or go home with him later is what matters

Because of these differences in mindset and different objectives for their rapport breaks, the beginner and the veteran naturally use them differently.

The beginner tries to make women like him by breaking rapport.

The veteran works to interrupt unhelpful conversation or thought patterns a girl is in, and redirect her back on the path through seduction.

What we want to do when we break rapport is the latter, rather than the former.


How to Break Rapport When She's Unimpressive

Forget about trying to make her like you. That's what your fundamentals are for.

If you break rapport properly, it's true - women will be more attracted to you. Proper use of rapport breaking is plainly and simply good game, and it's just how attractive, dominant men talk with women.

The first kind of rapport breaking we're going to examine is the rapport breaking you do when a girl is just plainly and simply being really boring and ordinary and NOT trying to impress you.

Let's go back to the examples of good rapport breaking we used earlier and examine what's good about them:

Her: What do you do for work? [boring question]

You: Are we really going to get into these boring questions? [redirect]

Her: [laughs] Okaaaaay... what would you like to talk about?

break rapportNow, if you were going to use deep diving here, you wouldn't go this route - instead, you'd just turn the question back on her, and start diving into her answers.

But what if you could tell the question was nothing but polite conversation, and she didn't really care about your answer? In fact, she didn't seem to care about talking to you at all?

If you were getting that vibe, going straight into deep diving - rapport - wouldn't be the recommended path. You would, rather, want to get her excited about talking to you, and get the conversation moving in a fresh direction - you'd want to break rapport.

Here, all rapport is really doing is recognizing how she actually feels about the communication she's giving you and feeding it back to her.

You can tell she's bored by the conversation she's in with you and the questions she's asking you. So ask her if you really have to do this whole boring-questions thing, and her reaction is laughter, a pattern interrupt... and relief. She didn't want to talk about those things anyway; now the two of you can discuss something far more... interesting.

How about our second example?

You: What do you do for fun?

Her: Mostly just chat with my friends on Snapchat or Instagram.

You: So in other words, you're a total gossip girl.

Her: [laughs] Yeah, I guess!

In this case, rather than try to build rapport on a rather inane, impersonal topic (nice guy: "Oh yeah, I use Snapchat all the time... it's so much fun!"), we poke a little fun at her for - you guessed it - being boring.

"Yep - you're just another boring gossip girl" --> that's the communication here. Now, it's said in a clearly warmly teasing tone of voice, and you'll be smiling at her as you say it, so she knows you're just joshing - but here, rather than stroking her ego for being boring and ordinary - which is what almost every man she meets does - you poke a little fun at her for being boring and ordinary.

You will not do this if she is actively trying to impress you. That's the difference. If she tells you she models, and you can tell she's really trying to build up her value and impress you, you're not going to rapport break nearly as hard (or at all, depending on how she conveys it) - instead, you might do something like this:

You: Do anything artistic?

Her: Actually yes - I model!

You: Ah, very cool. Print or runway?

Her: Mostly just photo shoots. I'm nothing special yet.

You: Everybody starts somewhere!

Because she was qualifying herself to you here - she was working to answer your question and build rapport - you reward her by showing interest and amplifying the thread, rather than breaking rapport and teasing her, as you would if she said something clearly low effort in a bid to dodge the qualification, as with the Snapchat girl, or if she was doing something she herself clearly felt was boring and half-assed.

Be mindful of her effort and energy levels. If she's nervous or excited or working hard to connect with you, do not break rapport.

If, however, she's bored, dismissive about answering your questions, or otherwise uninterested in impressing you - rapport-break away (with light teases - we're not insulting anybody here; see "Teasing a Girl the Right Way" if you need more clarification).


Rapport Breaking as Punishment

If the examples of rapport breaking above were more teases to snap women out of autopilot and get them working again in interactions with you, the rapport breaking you'll be using with women who are being bad is of a different sort; this sort is behavioral, not verbal - we'll be using extinction.

That looks like this:

You: Do anything artistic?

Her: I'm not really in the mood to answer a lot of questions right now.

You: Eh... [eyebrow shrug... followed by skeptical look as you slowly turn your body somewhat away, facing in another direction]

That's an example of dealing with strongly negative behavior. You won't always get her re-engaging you after this, but the hit rate is still higher than the inexperienced guy's scramble to tease or neg her for rejecting him.

If you're in a social environment, you'll have the highest return hit rate here, especially if you go off and amass a bunch of obvious preselection and social proof right after... girls who dismiss you this way, then see you well liked by everyone else and competed for by attractive women tend to regret having been dismissive to you, and will re-approach you, or be much, much softer to your next approach a little while later.

(note: you don't have to rapport break here; you have other options, like make the bold move, assuming she's just cranky-horny and needs a man who will pick her up fast, and see if she'll bite: e.g., "Okay, I can see you don't want to small talk - me neither. Tell you what - let's go on an adventure, right now" - low hit rate, but when it hits, you're so in...)

What about if you get something less extreme?:

Her: Hold this for me?

You: Actually, I've got to run to the bathroom real quick. But if you'll watch my drink for a minute, I'll hold that for you for a minute when I get back - no roofies...

Here, you break rapport by not directly responding to the request, and instead answering with your own request. However, you tie it back into the original request, and do so in a socially graceful way that doesn't leave the girl feeling rejected or insulted.

Another example:

Her: Hold this for me?

You: Can't; my hands are busy [show her your hands in your pockets, or holding food / drinks, etc. - then laugh]

Her: You're a dick! [laughing]

You: That guy might be a better bet. He looks like a really nice, considerate person.

Her: [laughing] Will you hold this, pleeassee?

You: You can leave it here next to me. No promises that it or I will be here when you get back, though.

Her: [mock frustration] I'll just take it with me. But I am coming back!

You: I look forward to it!

Here, you break rapport not by teasing her, but by rejecting her request in a humorous way.

Also, unlike the bad example response earlier ("Bad girl. I'll bet that works great with the nice guys who are desperate for your approval"), he doesn't avoid giving her an answer - he tells her "Can't" right away, then continues to humorously refuse to take responsibility for the item. In that bad example from the start of the post, the man seems to stall out of fear of saying "No" - and the girl senses this, and knows she has him.

The punishment here is simply denying her a level of investment she hasn't earned from you yet (for whatever reason; maybe the two of you don't know each other well enough, or maybe she's asking you to watch something for her while she goes off and has fun or flirts without you - something you pretty much can't ever agree to if you want to be seen as a sexual man in any way).

The communication is, "I like you... but not that much."

Remember: charming skeptic. If it doesn't move things forward (and especially if it moves things backwards), don't do it.


Rapport, Broken

Most jokes are rapport breaking - chase frames, sexual frames, and the like, all break rapport and serve as pattern interrupts. If you recall from "Spell Broken: Big Mistakes That Shred Conversation", you'll be using rapport breaking periodically throughout your deep diving as well, to prevent your conversations getting too top heavy with emotion, then crashing.

Not so much that you're unable to connect with her... but just enough that you retain control of the level of emotion she's experiencing, and it doesn't start feeling like a psychotherapy session.

Breaking rapport thus has all kinds of uses, done right - at the core, it:

  • Keeps thing fresh
  • Keeps things moving in the right direction, and you and her off tangents

It makes you more attractive by:

  1. Challenging women
  2. Making you unpredictable
  3. Extincting out bad behavior (instead of chasing it)

You just want to be mindful not to use it inappropriately - don't try to build up women who've been rude or asked too much of you; don't chase them; and don't try to "punish."

Just ignore the stuff you don't like, say "no" to the things you don't want to do, and tease her if she's being boring (or to defuse the tension if things are getting just a little to deep, emotional, and intense).

And keep in mind that you don't break rapport to get women to find you more attractive - that's just a byproduct.

The reason you do it is to keep things moving forward.

Ever forward - that's the mantra of the true lover of women.

Chase

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Comments

Anonymous's picture

Flirt back when she's acting rude or aloof?


Hi Chase,

Very good advice here but in another article of yours, you said that when the girl is acting superior, rude or aloof later on in the interaction, you should simply flirt back as though it's just a game and doesn't bother you at all.

Can you possibly clarify and maybe elaborate further upon the differences between the two scenarios here?

Anonymous's picture

Also


I find testing unattractive although I know I need to get over this. However, is there a way to distinguish the difference between a girl who's testing with a girl with a bad attitude? I was dating a girl and whenever I experienced anything negative I couldn't tell the difference.

Chase Amante's picture

Girls with Attitude

Author

Anon-

Yes - sorry if that's confusing. It's a matter of degrees… the bad behavior I'm talking about in this article is when a girl is being genuinely cool toward you, vs. the flirty aloofness of later-stage interactions (see the subheading "When Girls Act Superior Later On" in "What to Do When Girls Act Superior, Rude, and Aloof") or the warm/neutral rapport break you use when she's behaving that way with you early on (in the section of that article titled "When Girls Act Superior Early On").

Testing vs. bad attitude is somewhat nuanced, because there're a lot of things it could be:

  • She could be testing to see how you react, and laughing inside but have a mean pokerface on the outside

  • She could be legitimately not a nice person and just be behaving cold

  • She could be very horny and simply not have patience for a man who's taking things too slowly

Sometimes you can tell the difference, but you can't always. The best thing to do is simply assume she's horny and wants sex now, and start escalating her investment and the interaction itself. Worst that can happen is she says "no", and she's weeded herself out - if she instead complies, it's game on.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Flake management...


Hey Chase, your last couple of articles have been quite interesting to read and process..

Although i have a different question in mind, something about flaking.

Example: Long story short - I set up a date with a girl, and 1 day before the date or on the day of the date she says she can`t make it, she has some important stuff to finish.

I usually say: "it`s okay, no biggie, do your thing and let me know what was it about" - usually..

But the last couple of girls that did this, i just answered: "It`s okay" or just "no biggie" ..

Two worded answer or sometimes just "okay" ...

Now is it possible to be to nonchalant, to releived in your answer to make her go into auto rejection or to simply scare her away...

What i am asking is, is it possible that she may feel my answer as nothing and to think that "i really am not that into her and it is the same thing if we go out or not."

If so, and can you please give some help here: some sentences which you use, when a girl flaked you or said that she can`t make it..

Thanks.
Regards.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Flake management...

Author

Anon-

Message length is very important here. Very short message responses are basically adding a big element of randomness into the text dialogue; there's a certain chance they make the girl crazy about seeing you, and a certain chance they cause her to auto-reject hard.

If a girl legitimately likes you, and is legitimately sorry about flaking and feels bad about it, and she sends you an explanation, and gets back something very short, like "okay", that can result in auto-rejection, yes. What happens essentially is she thinks this is a big deal, and feels very bad, and flakes and hopes you'll be okay with it, then gets back a one-word answer and feels like you don't really care. It's sort of like a cold bucket of water dumped onto the flame of her passion - "Oh. Guess I was the only one here feeling that way."

Alternately, if she was kinda sorta interested, a one-word response may make her shrug her shoulders and go, "Whatever... I'm not going to bother trying to reschedule this if he's that apathetic." Or, it might intrigue her, and make her think the guy single-word-messaging her is such a badass that HE shrugs about getting flaked on, and now she's excited.

It very much depends on the girl.

When I'm flaked on, I'll usually reply (depending on the message I get) with something akin to, "Yeah, no worries. Hope everything's okay. Let me know when you're free to reschedule." Just very plain, neutral, and non-emotional. That's largely because I know I made a good enough impression on her the first time around that if I'm just chill over text, she will eventually meet up with me in person, and then I can work my magic. Polarizing the text is not so useful to me - getting some girls really excited at the cost of losing other girls who were interested but had life intervene is not such a good deal, since I would've gotten those girls excited anyway once I had them in person, and not lost the other ones by staying calmer.

Alternately, if you get a lot of flakes that just never result in dates, you might be in a place where you'll still benefit from polarizing some women in your favor at the price of losing others. I'd be careful about getting too reliant on a technique like that though, because as you improve your fundamentals and become more consistent with women, things that polarize too much tend to become more of a liability than an asset.

Chase

Sam2's picture

When Skeptical Look/Counter-request fails


Chase, sometimes I feel you mass cold read us. :)

I have been guilty of breaking rapport the wrong way with a very specific kind of women: hot, testy, rude, simple-minded, border-line uneducated and of significantly lower social status than me. These women seemed immune to the perception of high status other women had for me. I felt "defied by women they didn't deserve to defy me". Is it possible that these women try to overcompensate for all the status imbalance between us? Mind you, it is these women that shake me emotionally.

However, I remember two cases where I accidentally used the right way of breaking rapport during dates with women I had previously made out with and I again hit the same wall with them:

1) She was being rude by saying my name is not a man's name. I gave her the skeptical look turning my body away. Her reaction: "Oh are you sad now? Are you going to cry as well?"

2) She was asking me to do a translation for her. I told her she didn't do anything to deserve this. Her reaction: "You are really so much about take-and-give, aren't you?"

What is your take?

Thank you

Chase Amante's picture

Re: When Skeptical Look/Counter-request fails

Author

Sam-

On the status / auto-rejection issue, I'd recommend checking out the article I just got up: "You’re Not That Special (and Neither is She)." Sounds like exactly the girl-rejects-guy-she-feels-commodotized-by, guy-gets-miffed-at-being-commoditized-back scenario I used as an example.

A girl asking if you're sad and going to cry - she's just a smartass, and she's one you deal with by being even more of one back. So when she asks you if you're going to cry, you just turn it into sexual humor: "Yeah - here, take off your shirt, I'm going to need to use it as a hanky."

She'll probably respond with something about how you can use one of these napkins, and you'll say no, that's not enough, I've got a lot of tears coming; I need your shirt.

First rule of improv is never say no - it kills the humor. So if she asks you if you're going to cry, just say yes, and escalate the fun with a dash of sexy.

Translation - depends on your phrasing, but make sure your tone is sufficiently playful when you say something like that. Assuming it is, I'd just reply to the take-and-give statement with something like: [leaning in, and in a very sexy voice with a hint of a smile and strong eye contact] "You have NO idea!"

Chase

Zac's picture

Strong Negative than usual


Chase,

What are the chances of post drama if she's strongly negative than usual. Given an example a girl friend last two weeks where i felt she was totally dismissive for no reason. I haven't met her in awhile, Does she wants to get hit on? because she tried to hold my hands later on while i'm in a conversation.

and practically i was in a public place so logistics would only meant i have to walk out with her when there's an event. So it's a no no.

What's your stats on girls whom you laid with this kind of situation? Does it have post drama? or am i totally wrong in reading the girl and the situation.?

Zac

Chase Amante's picture

Drama with Social Circle Girls

Author

Zac-

I won't sleep with girls in social circle who are acting this way... if they're that way with you and you HAVEN'T slept with them, just take that as a 5% sample of what it's going to be like with them after you do.

This girl sounds like she was probably horny and wanted to sleep with you, and annoyed because she felt like you weren't going for it. Logistics don't factor into how she feels... they will PREVENT her from LEAVING if the situation isn't favorable for it, but bad logistics won't cause her to curb her desire / auto-rejection. It's a case of, "I want it, and he's not giving it to me, and who CARES what the reasons why are?"

Women don't feel a responsibility (usually) for making sex happen. Their responsibility is signaling to the man that they want it; the man's responsibility is sorting the logistics and taking care of women's emotions and social and other concerns.

Chase

Josh V's picture

Breaking rapport with girls that I already know


Hey Chase,

You answered a previous question for me before and it really cleared things up for me. Thank you. Now with regards to breaking rapport as punishment or just to keep the conversation more interesting. Can I use breaking rapport with girls I already know, like acquaintances, just for practice ? If a female acquaintance tells me to hold a drink for her so she can go chase some other guy, should I break rapport just to practice using it ? Or am I doing more harm then good, hurting our friendship or something like that ?
Thanks again.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Breaking rapport with girls that I already know

Author

Josh-

When you introduce new behavior - especially control-taking behavior - with people you already have established precedent with, it always feels weird and off and not natural. She's going to wonder what's gotten into you, and why you're suddenly acting this way... because you are NOT this way. You are another way.

You usually won't get very useful reactions from female friends by trying things like this with them, if you already have much established precedent to the contrary. Your best bet for learning how to break rapport correctly and naturally is trying it out as you go with women who are still just getting used to you, and either dropping female friends whom you no longer enjoy your relationships with, or simply accepting that it's always going to be different with them than it is with newer women you meet, and that's okay.

Chase

Marcel's picture

Negative Challenge


Chase,

Thank you for bring further distinction on Break Rapport!

We should also be mindful in what ways she communicates to us Negatively.

Ex: About to Approach her ..
She: Ugh! You smell! (Attitude)
You: Your Pussy smells! (Smirk)
She: What!? (Lit)
...

Troy's picture

up and away


Hey Chase,

Im working my way through the getting started beginner ebook and my work is going very slow for me to improve at a rapid rate. My questions are:
1) How do i control my state, stop feeling crazy or weird when i am extremely tired? The reason is because i have loads of school studies to do plus not to mention me having to go to school from 6am in the morning, i have to go to my sport training 5 days a week and i reach home from school and my training at 8:00pm at night.

Now i dont know what to do anymore because im always tired with constant work and little sleep. I can only find the time on friday afternoon to do some day game, otherwise i try to talk to girls a lot at school since i am there the entire day. Also, when i am talking to people i give off a weird/sad/nervous vibe since im always tired. How do i deal with constant tiredness ( and i cant find the time of day to get more sleep ) and control my vibe that i give off to seem normal?

2) I have a severe problem that has plagued me most of my life and i want it to stop now! I have found that people somehow just love having me around at first but then after they get to know me a little or by how they see other people treat me, they start to verbally/insult abuse me and try taking advantage of me. The main problem is that trends are hard to break so people mainly subscribe to how others around behave towards us. Its the same with preselection and social proof. How do i break bads trends that people have for me when a large social circle like at your job sees you as a certain identity?

3) How do i stop making enemies out of people when i use moral superiority against them? Everytime i fight back people they insult me harder, laugh at me or fight me. What are the things to avoid doing to come across as annoying, stupid or making enemies so easily? I dont insult/laugh at people and i love peace so i dont get why people cant just stop hating on people. Maybe i am too nice. Could you do an article on "Avoiding Making Enemies" if you dont completely oppose to that idea. I think that while using moral superiority, being too bad or nice is not a good thing and it would make us aspiring social successes to know the road blocks to avoid making enemies!

Thanks Chase and have a great Christmas Season to come!

Troy

Troy's picture

GOSSIP AND CONVERSATION


Hey Chase, im here today sitting down and there is this girl that i frequently see in my social circle but she is always with her friends and im not the very socially gifted guy. The main problems that are holding me back are:
1) I struggle to come up with good conversation
2) My conversation is awkward.
3) Girls give me extremely short answers when i try to deep dive. i try finding interesting things to ask and talk about but they give back short answers whenever i ask
4) People tell me that i am asking too many questions even if its our first minute of conversation and i only asked them 5 questions
5) I get this feeling that girls dont enjoy my company.
6) I have a feeling that i want to change but i dont deserve it and i will turn back to my old way within no time.
6) I get uptight when it seems that girls might like me but that they wont want to be with me or i wont be able to hold them for even 1 day. how do i deal with this mindset problem?
7) when people make rumors about me and a girl that i like hears i feel that it ruins my chances, makes the girl see me as weak or undesirable. how do i deal with persons spredding rumors on me to a girl?

how do i deal with these problems? Thanks Chase
Troy

Chase Amante's picture

Questions

Author

Troy-

I'm afraid I can't be much help with the tired one - when I'm VERY tired, I usually just don't socialize much, or I put myself out there and if any attractive girls start hovering nearby (i.e., approach invitations), I draw them in and work with them. I might recommend trying to find ways to get more sleep wherever you can get it, stealing little naps here and there - sleep's vitally important for everything from learning to mental health, and without it, life kind of just sucks harder in so many ways. The times in my life when I've gotten the least sleep have also been the times when my performance in everything has been the worst, and I've most often ended up in bad situations through poor decision making.

If you're making good initial impressions but it's devolving into poor later treatment, it sounds like you have probably hacked how to make great first impressions but struggle to keep up with normal social interactions as these mature and become more complicated. I might suggest looking into Asperger syndrome; the problems you're talking about (good first impression, poor later one; people finding you annoying, but you can't tell why) are all common scenarios encountered by people with AS. Ultimately the way around it is just learning more and more of the rules of social nuance and calibration, and adjusting yourself to be ever more socially competent and "normal."

As for changing impressions when you have people around who are accustomed to seeing / treating you another way, that's 5x as hard, because you're not just reinventing yourself, but fighting massive precedent. Sometimes it's best just to grin and bear it until you can get out of that situation and head somewhere fresh to start over and build a new reputation for yourself from scratch. A bad reputation is one of the worst and hardest things to have to overcome.

I'll make a note on "avoiding making enemies." One good piece of advice though is "don't fight groups." If one person is attacking you, you can deal with that; if 2 or 3 or more people start ganging up, you're going to look like more and more of a fool the longer you stick around and let them pile on. You're best just shrugging it off and acting bored, or chuckling and saying, "I'm not sticking around for this abuse - I'll catch you guys later," and taking off.

Chase

Angus's picture

Making a girl feel as if you're out of her league!


Hey Chase! Great article!

In the article on how to make a girl fall in love with you, you mentioned that one of the key aspects of making a girl fall in love with you is to make her feel as if you're out of her league.

Could you please give a quick brief overview on the things you can do and the stories you need to tell to make her feel that way?

Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Out of Her League

Author

Angus-

That's largely an element of your fundamentals and your overall vibe - there's a LOT that goes into it; it's not any one thing.

A good place to start may be these articles:

Chase

Royce's picture

Age


Hey Chase, I'm in high school and I have no problem cold approaching women out of school(mall, stores, etc..) but the women are usually around 18-22 which is a couple of years older than I am. I have a pretty solid build and voice as well as facial hair and women always think I'm just around their age so when I do hit it off with one, I can usually keep it going. So my question is, should I just say I'm around their age and just go all the way with them ot tell them the truth which I have tried and it resulted in them either becoming friends or not talking at all. Btw, I do also talk to many girls in high school. And if you need an article for high school, I'd be glad to share some experience I've acquired through high school.
Thanks,
Royce

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Age

Author

Royce-

Age is one of the few areas I'd recommend just straight up fibbing about when you're younger - see this article for detail: "Younger Men and Older Women." It's just too polarizing to people and you're too unlikely to get a fair shake at anything based on your real number if it's low relative to hers.

And, cheers for the article offer on high school. This is one I've decided to throw on the back burner, simply because I don't want to get one up unless I know it's a guy who's slept with a LOT of girls in high school (very easy to give misleading advice if you're part of the way there but not all of the way there), and also because I'm not 100% clear on the legality of giving sex advice to minors... I think it's probably just better to stay away from that altogether for now ;)

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hi Chase, I was just


Hi Chase, I was just thinking... with all the advice and demand for it out there, is every guy out there going to become a stud? Realistically, what % of guys are studying this stuff and out of them, how many of them are going to make it to the point where they can pretty much get any girl they want?

Chase Amante's picture

Stud Rate

Author

Anon-

It's fairly low - not because they CAN'T do it, but because most men simply aren't driven to.

Some guys really only ever want to find the girl of their dreams and that's it. So, they get good enough to do that, then get her, and they're thrilled.

A lot of guys get into game thinking to themselves that they want to be that great Casanova, seducing all the hardest-to-get women all over the world, but a few months or a year in they meet a girl who checks off all their boxes and they settle down into an exclusive relationship. And that's fine... many times as we get farther along into a journey to somewhere we wanted to go, we find another path branching off in another direction and realize we'd like to go down that road even more, so we do.

The percentage of guys who really get seriously good with women is pretty small... probably a lot less than 1% of the guys who read or try much of this stuff. Most of them are guys with some kind of extreme-ish personality disorder, in my experience - they may be very emotionally needy and need constant validation in terms of new partners; they may have difficulty forming long-term commitments; or they may keep themselves away from women they consider high quality, and instead sleep with a succession of lower caliber women, who aren't able to wrap them up into relationships. The chunk of men who are "normal" and get very good with women is even smaller... they're out there, but they're often the guys who are "naturals" who got an early start and just have really high sex drives - they just NEED a lot of sex.

Whatever the case, you need some kind of strong driving motivation to reach that point, and most men don't have it - or, they lose it once they meet a girl who really clicks for them. That's neither good nor bad; it's just the way of things.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Glasses


Hi Chase, just a quick question:
Are glasses a turn-off for most women? I'd be glad if you did a post about something like that.

Thanks!

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Glasses

Author

Anon-

In my experience, you will get approached by women more when wearing glasses, and these are particularly useful if they offset what would otherwise be a cut-and-dry stereotype for you - e.g., I had a muscular, surfer/gym-dude type of friend with spiky hair and who loved busting on girls, but would always wear glasses and women found him very charismatic. The glasses of course weren't solely responsible for this... but they seemed to help, vs. the few times I saw him out without them.

When on occasion I've worn glasses out, I've seen similar reactions from some women - some girls treat me worse with them on, but others seem drawn toward me. It seems to be something that polarizes (i.e., some girls love it, some girls hate it).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Moods and consequences


Hi chase, I used to be really sexually stifled but have become comfortable letting my inhibitions go. When I'm feeling sexual it's all I can think about all day but it eventually leaves. Sometimes I'll see hot women and I'll be attracted but I'm somewhat apathetic and don't have the feeling where I "have to have her." I remember I was on a date once and I didn't even try to have sex her even though she clearly wanted it because I just wasn't in the mood. Furthermore when that sexual state leaves I have a very time hard time finding it again and requires a lot of conscious effort. I'm wondering if this is more of an identity and mindset issue or if it has to do with other factors such as diet, lifestyle, natural flow of hormones, stress etc. Sometimes my libido just disappears and that starts a negative snowball effect into other things like confidence and dominance setbacks. For this reason would it be bad to tie things like confidence to sexuality e.g. " I'f im not fucking girls and oozing of sexuality and masculinity I'm not a man?"

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Moods and consequences

Author

Anon-

Yeah, if it's not something you see as a problem or one you want to fix, I'd disentangle that from identity then. There's no need to get flustered about things that aren't important to you overall.

There are plenty of ways to define a man. Isaac Newton and Nikola Tesla both died virgins; and you'd probably be hard pressed to say that either of them were not "men." Look for a definition of masculinity that fits your worldview, and define it as such, and I suspect you will be just fine.

Chase

Michal's picture

Hello, Chase Quick


Hello, Chase

Quick questions:
Value does not matter that much during seduction but once you want to keep the girl in your life, it is needed much more, right?

Offering myself to others, my time, is it good or bad? For sports, help, advice. I mean if they really do something good just tell them "Hey, you know what, if you need someone to help you/join the team/talk to, you can contact me. I dont promise anything, I am just letting you know." One thing is offering myself, second is actual delivery.

Honesty - be honest about things if it helps me and others and keep my mouth shut if it hurts me or someone else? Rule of thumb? I was always very honest, sometimes I feel it is not good to be honest, but I do it anyway. I am currently trying to tone it down.

I had another question, a contradiction in a certain concept here on your site but I can't remember now what it was... nor what it was connected with. Hopefully I will remember. So maybe next time.

Michal

Chase Amante's picture

Giving, and Honesty

Author

Michal-

Your value matters more in relationships, yes, but what that value is is very different depending on you and the woman. e.g., especially early into a relationship (first 3 to 6 months), I prefer to let my primary value be sex and conversation - I'd recommend you don't go overboard helping girls with anything, and don't even take them out to dinner / movies / parties, etc., that much or at all. I talked about this a good bit more here: "How to Start a Relationship with a New Girlfriend."

Basically, think of it like this: she's going to feel whatever emotions she's going to feel, and whatever you give her at the outset of the relationship she will anchor those feelings to, and you will then need to provide her virtually forever to prevent them going away. If all you give her is sex and conversation for the first 6 months, then you never have to give her more than that (more or less) to keep her happy going forward (assuming the relationship also progresses). If you give her help, advice, loads of time, take her to nice dinners, take her to movies, and take her to parties, and also sleep with her and talk with her, she's going to anchor all of her emotions to those things, and if any of them go away at some point in the relationship - 6 months or 16 years later - she's going to feel like the relationship has changed and become less good. You obligate yourself from the start based on what you give her in exchange for her emotions.

As for honesty, yes, I'd recommend be honest to a point, but dance around issues that are going to cause problems. That's going to differ from girl to girl. Some girls will want to know everything about you, too; other girls will maintain policies of "I won't ask what I don't want to know", and you probably don't want to pop that bubble for them, because they've put it there for a reason.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Eye problem


Problem needs adressing..

I have a medical condition that i simply cannot change and need another opinion on this subject.

Ever since i was a little boy, the nerve on one of my eyes was damaged and my one ( right ) eye moved towards my nose.

The thing is often times that is unnoticable, but when i am sick or especially when i drink alcohol, my right eye moves way towards my nose.
That way i cannot make a good eye contact because frankly, the girl won`t know where i am looking at and it is quite awful situation to be in.
I know this and i cannot change it, for now.

The thing i want to ask is this: Is it a good idea to tell a girl that i don`t drink alcohol because of my problem with my eye.
Basically i want to adress this to the girl, as a way for her to feel some empathy towards me and also not to be startled or feel awful when she sees me
looking at her with one of my eye going the other way..

When i am positioned to her side i have no problem with this, but when i am straight at her, it is a problem as it is causing me a great deal of distraction.

I feel nervous about her noticing my right eye going another direction, i break eye contact way to much, i start thinking to much about it which makes me lose focus and concentration.

General opinion, or your own experience and knowledge on this - anything i can use to calm myself down and feel better, and also to change the way i look at them when i am with them..

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Eye problem

Author

Anon-

Yes, I'd just make it a very nonchalant "not a big deal" thing when asked why you don't drink alcohol. I'd just say, "Oh, I have this eye thing where my eye sort of glides over to my nose and looks all weird, mostly when I drink... it's freaky. Anyway, rather than scare little children, I just opt not to drink."

Then when she notices it on her own later, you just say, "Yeah, sometimes it happens a little even when I don't drink. Just be lucky I'm not boozing right now, because it'd be like HERE!" [and gesture dramatically toward the other side of the room or something absurd]

Basically, just be "whatever" about it, make light about it, and then go back to whatever you were talking about before, as if it's the most natural thing in the world. So long as you don't treat it like a big deal, if she likes you, she won't either.

Chase

jake93's picture

This happened to me last weekend...


At a very famous club in LA last weekend, I met what I thought was THE most attractive girl at the club that night. But I was left frustrated by what ensued.

There were 3 of them in the group, all really hot. I felt particularly attracted right away to this one blonde girl. I met her about an hour later in the smaller, less crowded room where my buddy was DJ-ing. The 3 of them sat down directly across from me and my friend, I smiled and strode straight across the room to meet them.

I said hi to the blonde girl I was interested in, who was easily the hottest girl at the club that night. I just told her that I thought she was very cute and that I'd like to introduce myself. Going up to all 3 of them directly like that was daunting, and now that I've read some of your posts, maybe I should've gone for a more indirect approach had I known better. But fortunately, she was really nice, very open and welcoming. After some light exchange I asked her if I could sit down next to her, to which she replied "of course"! At which point i was thinking to myself, I'll bet no other guy had gone up to talk to them simply because of how hot and intimidating they looked, especially with all 3 of them together. Her being open to me must've had something to do with that. I'm sure that had I given myself any more time to think it over I would've psyched myself out of approaching too.

Just as I thought things were going good, the 2 other girls all of a sudden got up and dragged my girl away with them, as she said "oh i gotta go!" and left in a confused hurry. A few minutes later they came in with a whole bunch of other people and their group got bigger and bigger, people started popping bottles, getting drunk, and they met up with what seemed like their long lost friends, and I didn't have enough energy anymore to open their group and approach her all over again. Oh and plus I found out that they were all from Seattle.

But what was frustrating was this: They were sitting at the table next to mine the entire time and "my" girl clearly didn't have anyone that she was romantically interested in in the group, she looked more and more bored as the night wore on, playing with her phone constantly for 10 mins at a time. And nobody else from the club approached her either, I mean, nobody. Partly i think it was because she was so locked in to her group, it made it difficult to approach her, as it was for me. But she clearly was open to meeting someone, and she clearly wanted to meet me! She kept checking me out throughout the night, and I felt like she still wanted me to go talk to her, but she didn't make it any easier to approach her because she was constantly surrounded by her friends.

So that was my night, there was great potential for both of us. But she ended up just getting drunk with her friends, a perfectly attractive girl who dressed up so good, to be let down later because nobody even approached her. And I ended up frustrated, more at just the general social dynamics in clubs (I wasn't drinking). What do you do in a situation like that? How do you go about opening her or her group again after they had left, without seeming desperate and clingy, and especially after they left and came back with a huge group, whose energy is way up there and clearly just there to pop bottles and get drunk with friends?

Chase Amante's picture

Approaching and Reopening

Author

Jake-

I'd probably have recommended something not as direct on opening, yeah. From the sound of it, she was mildly intrigued, but you were probably closer to the "he's a cute, decent guy" than the "he's an absolute sex pistol" designation (her replying, "Of course!" to you asking to sit is something girls will do when they see you as asking for their permission / they are higher status; her simply announcing "I gotta go!" shows no real concern about losing you, which a girl who's very into you / views you as higher status will feel - she'll refuse to go, or she'll be upset and worried about it). The "walking by and suddenly noticed her" open from this article is probably my top recommendation here: "Approaching Girls Sitting Down."

For reopening later when she's bored checking you out in a big group, your best bet is waiting until you catch her looking bored and staring at you, then waving her over increasingly playfully and insistently (think: "Come ON!" with a big smile and dramatic gesturing if she waves "no" at first to your more casual invitation) until she complies. That way, instead of you having to go join her group and navigate all those people, you have her come to you; and rather than you chase, you have her coming to you - more or less even footing, since you were inviting, but it's in your favor since she's doing the work of crossing the room and going to you while you remain where you are.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

What should a girl do when infatuated?


Chase I've started seeing this very attractive man. He's been a friend of a friend's and I met him a few years back, but I've just started getting to know him this past week. Anyway, in this short time we have been seeing each other a lot. Spent the entire day together, hung out at his restaurant, spent a few nights together. He's incredible in bed, charming, very easy and comfortable to communicate with...lots of fun too! We hit it off right away and since then, I haven't been able to get him off my mind.

He's been treating me very well, but no doubt part of this is just his nature. He is intuitive and very good with women in general.

He also got out of a long term relationship a few months back. (Could this still hold any impact?)

I myself am rarely so attracted to a man. I find I'm having to remind myself to give him the freedom and space that he obviously values and needs so early on.

Is there anything I can do to not mess this up? I'm usually very easy going, fun, and independent and do very well in relationships when my feelings are not so strong.

I know he likes me, enjoys my company and is attracted to me too. But like I said, he is such a skilled communicator, that my feelings probably have a lot to do with his nature and person, rather than an intense mutual attraction so early on? I don't know. That is my rational to keep myself from letting my emotions get the best from me.

As of now, I'm keeping my cool on the surface, while my heart may be turning to mush already! Any advice for me? Anything I can do besides spending time/energy trying to calm my thoughts/actions?

Oh and one more thing, he has to talk to beautiful women for his work (and they flirt with him etc.) and when I watch these interactions I'm overcome with crazy jealousy. Completely abnormal for me! Yikes.

Help? :)

Chase Amante's picture

Re: What should a girl do when infatuated?

Author

Anon-

It's hard to say with absolute certainty without knowing more about the guy, but most men who are skilled charmers are used to girls falling all over themselves for them and it gets boring / easy to lose interest in the girl when that happens. The ones who drive them crazy are the ones who maintain their poise, intrigue, and mystery - the nuts that aren't as easy to crack.

One of the better ways to avoid falling for someone is to simply minimize thinking about him… every time you find yourself doing so, divert your thoughts elsewhere, to something else interesting. Could be some situation at work, something on TV, something your friends told you, or even some other guy you're crushing on.

Seeing someone else can help a fair bit here too, though I don't know if that's something you want to do or feel good about doing.

Coming out of a long-term relationship, you will usually seek the opposite of whatever you just left - so if he left a girl who was too clingy and boring, he'll want someone aloof, hard-to-get, invigorating, and cagey. Alternately, if he left a girl he was trying to settle down with but felt like he couldn't get, he'll want one who's softer, easier to handle, and more pro-commitment. Of course, once the rebound period is over, he'll usually go back to his usual tastes.

If I look at the girls I've fallen for in the past, they've been the ones who've been alternately passionate, romantic, and caring, but also expressing constant doubts about "us" from the very beginning and forcing me to work to convince them there's a future for us. From what I understand of their relationships, most men typically fall a lot harder than I do for them too (since most men aren't actively trying to avoid or control this process).

At least for me, the mix of passion and affection combined with uncertainty and doubt is quite often an explosive, intoxicating mix that's very difficult to stay on top of.

If I had to extrapolate, I'd say too many of the "in-love" women give guys a lot of slack and don't pressure them out of fear of losing them, which creates no urgency and none of the roller coaster emotions that really build investment, while too many of the "not certain" women don't give guys enough of a reason (passion, vibrancy, excitement) to want to allay those doubts in the first place.

Powerful connection + risk of loss is a killer combination… then again, if that's not your natural emotional state, you might be becoming something you aren't, which may or may not have consequences for the relationship once you've already got him but then knock the games off - that very much depends on how "untamable" he really is.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase please answer!


Hey Chase!

Here is my situation. I like this girl from my class, she is really beautiful, yet insecure, quiet and shy. If you are familiar with 8 types of women personality, she is connoisseur.

Every guy in the class thinks she is hot, but she doesn't feel that way I think. She is reserved, doesn't go out at all, is quiet between classes and seems a little bit cold sometimes. Has few "unpopular" girl friends. Her parents are really strict and don't allow her to go outside (clubs, parties), not even on the last school trip.

I decided to sit with her during one class. All the guys went nuts and started teasing me and giggling in the back rows. When I said I will sit with her one guy said: 'And what will you achieve?'... I talked with her for a bit during class (can't talk a lot, because she is worried about teacher being mad at her), made fun of myself (that female teacher is in love with me), talked about school and upcoming tests (I read that forconnoisseur type school is not boring subject, as long as you ask for her opinion).

One of the guys passed by me and threw a paper on which a heart was drawn and it said 'hihihi'. At that moment she went totally shy, I mean totally. Her body language changed, she didn't talk to me anymore, only if I asked her something. I said to her that they are just being immature and that they think that when someone sits with a girl, he is always trying to seduce her. She didn't response, or maybe she said something like 'I know.' (I don't know what she said, because I was mad at them).

Later at the end of the class those guys were teasing me more. I believe that those were all cockblocking attempts and that they were really jealous.

Guy that said 'What will you achieve?' also said to another friend (that friend told me this) that 'I won't suceed anyway and that I'm already friendzoned so it doesn't matter, if they throw a paper with heart on it.'

I don't think I'm friendzoned, because I always stand up for myself during the classes even if teachers says something to me that I don't like. I don't take shit from anyone. I complimented this girl a couple of times. I try to be funny with her although she is shy and as I said before school subjects don't seem boring to her as long as her opinion is envolved. So I think I'm not friendzoned.

What do you think? Are they just showing their true faces and being jelous jerks or what? Am I friendzoned? What would your advice be to me to get her?

Thanks A LOT!

Chase Amante's picture

Girl in Class

Author

Anon-

It sounds like you're in high school, which is kind of a strange environment, and not one I really have any experience meeting women in. I can't really give you any specific situational advice that'd be anything other than pure speculation.

That said, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about what other people THINK the situation is - they're usually just jealous, I agree. I'd also avoid flirting with girls in clear line-of-sight of other people - you're only adding social pressure to the girl to save face socially, perhaps by rejecting you (see this article: "Granting Social Status; and, Not Getting Thrown Under the Bus").

If you can meet her and get to know her and ask her out somewhere that's not clearly in eye- or ear-shot of everyone else, that's probably best, although I'm not entirely sure how you'd do that in a close school environment where everyone knows everyone else and acts childishly around boys and girls speaking with each other.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Showing interest is it important


hey chase, read and realised how far i have come with my conversation with girls after finding this site. Could understand what you were trying to say. Anyways my question today is related to what my female friend told me a week back. Nowadays I am able to spark an initial attraction with almost 80% of the girls i talk to. I can get away with almost anything i say and getting numbers or deep diving is absolutely no problem for me. But problem arises as soon as i show interest. It is so surprising that as soon as I think .. hmm may be i like this girl that things start changing. One of my very good female friends told me even before i told her that there should not be sexual feel to my interaction. What she meant was i could be sexual framing but it should not look as though i want to have sex with the girl till i take her to the room. She said its the thing that turns her on. she is intrigued by such guys . I tried practicing but still i couldnt dampen it. May be the eye contact may be the smile she said girls could sense it and that i would do tremendously better if i managed to control. Any suggestion if the theory holds true and if so how to control it.

Chase Amante's picture

Sexual Interest

Author

Anon-

Right - you want to hint at it, and intrigue her, in a somewhat circumspect way, without outright showing clear interest. You want to make her wonder, rather than make it crystal clear - if you make it crystal clear, you kill all her curiosity and interest in moving things forward.

Fortunately, this isn't a huge problem to fix, just one that needs some tweaking. I'd recommend these articles to check out:

Chase

Michal's picture

Hello, I guess I remembered


Hello,

I guess I remembered the contradiction but I am not 100% sure.
It is about "playing it cool". You suggested that (example ahead) if a girl flakes on you, you should play it cool and dont worry if you run into her and just try another time. And in some other situations you suggested keeping your cool. Mostly with chasing.

Now the opposite, paying for dates. I once made a girl upset by this because I told her I am not going to pay for her, because in my perspective it looks as if she was there only because it was "free" and her only investment was her time. Compared to that I had to invest my time while also the time I had spent on making the money. She then said "give us a minute" to the waitress (because she was standing there) and argued with "I think that you invited me sooo.. you pay" - Nothing rude, with a little smile too, but I felt it was upsetting for her a little. At that point I wanted to hold my frame BUT she was really great and I was fighting my inner voice saying "you know what, I will pay now, you will pay next time," to save the situation and the girl for next date. Instead, I told her, she should look at it from my point of view and if she was there and had a good time, she should not be so upset about that and just pay for her coffee. But because she is, it tells me, she did not enjoy the time, so she at least wanted to save the money. And she followed by "You are the man here, you pay." Which I understood as it is my duty, that she expects that, and at that point it was over for me because of that whole year I read your site made me change my perspective so I just told her that I am not paying. I tipped the waitress the same amount as her coffee and I made my exit with goodbye.

The thing is, she was really great. And I would not mind paying really. I just wanted to make us equal. And hold the frame. Or maybe you saved my ass by getting me out of something that would have ended up pretty badly some time later where I would have been more invested. But I liked her, she liked me and this whole thing destroyed it and I have never seen her again. I understand that "you invite, you pay" I was raised by that rule. So maybe I should have said: "Well ok, next time you invite me." *wink*

I guess I made the right choice by leaving her there (at the point where it was clear she might be crazy before that last comment of hers) but I just dont know how to distinguish the moments where you "CAN" take it personally like flakes against this real and obvious slap in the face "You are the man, you pay" thing.
Difference is - and I know that - you cant be sure she flaked because of you. But with "you invited, you pay" which is still in encoded in me and I would normally pay, you can take it in many directions - further to we-split, playfully further, deny, playfully deny, accept, playfully accept, ...

I just dont understand this "keep your cool" policy. Maybe because I am not cool and dont really know how I should be. But what I mean that there are situations where you can her actions and statements differently and taking the right path is crucial.

Michal

Chase Amante's picture

Paying for Dates

Author

Michal-

Splitting the bill is one thing, but you NEVER want to get into an argument with a girl on a date… it's absolutely deadly, 99% of the time. Women are attracted to men they view as superiors… and you don't argue with your superiors (usually). You wouldn't argue with a beautiful woman you were desperate to have, would you? Likewise, if she's arguing with you, she knows you're not the man for her.

If you don't know how to split the bill effectively, this isn't something that's life or death. And, if you are taking girls on proper "dates" (which is what this sounds like), then you're not in the lover category and are instead auditioning for the boyfriend role… in which case, she's absolutely going to insist you pay (much of the time), and will rule you out if you do not. Boyfriend candidates compete on provider value - can you provide at least as well for her as other men (and either beat them in terms of provider ship, or in some other way - e.g., your fundamentals)? Or can you not?

That said, you handled this situation in the best way you could once it'd already started to save face and not lose any more respect. Had you yielded and told her she could pay next time, I guarantee there wouldn't have been a next time, and she'd have thought less of you. By the time it's reached argument status, it's done and not coming back.

Essentially, if you want to break expectations of you paying on dates, you want to kill any thoughts about you being a potential boyfriend, and you want to make the date as casual and natural as possible.

If you're still worried about the bill, just leave it on the table when it comes and keep talking casually as if nothing's happened. Eventually she'll bow to the social pressure and pick it up. Just keep talking to her as if you haven't noticed, and she'll get awkward and ask you what you should do about the check.

If she even asks this, though, she's probably either considering you for a boyfriend, or is not interested - you'll have to do better at making it into the casual / lover category with the next girl.

Chase

12Mark12's picture

problems to fix


Chase do u think that the reason I dont have success with girls is because I dont show them any attention. I mean some girls are just thirsty for it. Some would even get mad when I dont show them any. but with any girls I kno or meet its always tension between us. Its hard for me to get along with girls who have big egos sometimes. Any tips on handling this would help

Chase Amante's picture

Showing Interest

Author

Mark-

Yes, absolutely - you've got to show interest in women... you won't get very far without doing this. Without it, you'll send all but the most obsessively interested in you women straight into auto-rejection.

I'd recommend these articles for starters:

Chase

thedesignertom's picture

I'm stuck


Hi Chase,

I've asked this girl out at college (I'm in the UK so college is kind of the same as high school) and I couldn't get her phone number because she said her phone was broken, but she did say that she yes when I asked her if she wanted to get something to eat.

I used the direct opener and it worked better than I expected, so thanks. My problem is that I don't see her around college a lot and if I don't have any way of contacting her expect talking to her face, how can I set up a date with her or move fast if I'm limited to the amount of time I'll be able to speak to her.

I think I'll be lucky if I get to talk to her for around 5 - 10 minutes a week, that's one of her problems.

Thanks
Tom

Chase Amante's picture

Dates Without Phones

Author

Tom-

I'm pretty skeptical when I hear "my phone's broken" - it's usually just a lame excuse - but occasionally it is true. The thing to do here is, if she agrees to the date anyway, say, "Okay, your phone's broken - how do we coordinate?"

Then let her give you ideas for corresponding to set up the date. You typically want to do this right when she's said yes to meeting up with you, otherwise it becomes something of an awkward game of cat and mouse (and she may have since thought better of her "yes", but now has to play dodge because she's already thrown it out there).

So, usually best to grab an alternate form of communication then and there - email's usually an okay second choice if phone is out... at least it's not a hangout for her friend zone guys to fawn over her like social media - you usually don't want to be associated with those guys in her mind.

Chase

Tommy's picture

When?


chase is there a way to figure out when to make the next step in the seduction? say for example i'm at the gym, i flirt with the girl in passing who works at the gym and she flirts back in a way that I can tell she's at least a little interested. asking her out or going to find her to build rapport that same day seems a little too desperate so it's better to slow game and slowly talk to her more and more. but how do know when attraction expires? does it depend how interested she was even though we didn't even really have a conversation or would she be disappointed I didn't escalate things? I planned on slow gaming and letting the good first interaction marinate in her mind but then we walked by eachother later unintentionally and it was a little awkward.

Chase Amante's picture

Gym Game

Author

Tommy-

You'll want to treat her as a regular in this case - see this article on gym game, and skip to the section on picking up regulars:

"Gym Pickup: Dos Don'ts and How to Meet Girls at a Gym"

Chase

Petr's picture

Girls from past + flirting vs. complimenting


Hello,
I recently changed my wardrobe, haircut, facial hair, moving pace and I try to talk more slowly too. We had a highschool reunion and many girls were giving me attention and even some I had crush on. I am 23 now. Thing is, some of them were kinda bitchy, I used to be just friend for some of them, and one particular once in a group conversation really awfully laught about me and her being together because someone brought that up. It was really bitchy, kind of "this loser and me? The gorgeous one? Bwahaha." I cared about her that time and this really woke me up.

Now. There are many scenarios in my head.
1) have a conversation first about how come she is interested now. And just test her if she is bitchy or not
2) My pride is telling me I should not be even talking to her, that I should turn her down. If she did not get any class over the years and is bitchy still, I would just turn her down harshly.
3) My awareness understands that I was a loser and now as I matured I am more desirable to them. Which forces to override my pride and just go ahead. So then...
4) my penis tells me I should fuck her - after that
a) just leave
b) see where it goes with her

I am a nice person, I dont really feel well by thinking about just harshly telling her something like - you know, I used to care about you, but then you showed your true bitchy face. So please, leave me alone and go back to your group of fonies.

I spoke with one of these girls (I am saving the one I had crush on) but she could not admit that she finds me more attractive and that she just wants me. Nothing pointing out my weaknesses or trying to even point out the change I have gone through. Which is disrespectful to me.

Thing is, that with the one I had crush on, I dont thing pride is that important. It is either I get together with her for a night or not. But I still can not decide what to do with them.

Oh, and now something popped in my head. Difference between flirting and complimenting. I find flirting as an "under the radar complimenting" and I am not sure if full time flirting is ok. My guess is that compliments are for more serious talks and flirting for lighter, earlier conversation, where we are just playing. But I could not find much on this comparision here.

Thank you, Petr

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Girls from past + flirting vs. complimenting

Author

Petr-

I'm not clear on whether this insult happened years ago, or just recently at the reunion.

If recently, I'd leave it alone. Girls who insult you are either girls who are mad at you and in auto-rejection, or they're just socially miscalibrated people who aren't able to differentiate between teasing and insults (or, are throwing you under the bus to gain social status over you). When that happens publicly, the best thing you can do to save face is turn her on her heels:

Guy: Weren't you guys together in high school?

Girl: What, us? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You: Is that funny?

Girl: Us being together? Yeah... like, seriously?!

You: Wait - what's funny about it?

Basically what she's doing is implying to everyone else that she's socially superior. By calling her out on it, you essentially state that you reject that attempt by her, and ask her to qualify the statement. This makes it no longer clear that she is socially superior, and puts her in a very delicate situation - she's now forced to justify her ladder climbing. If she states outright that she is superior, and you shrug it off, she actually looks inferior. The best thing she can do here is shrug it off and try to change topics.

If the insult was in the distant past though, I'd forget all about it and sleep with her if you want to sleep with her and not be a dick about it. People are confused and socially uncalibrated in high school, and they throw people under the bus for social status in ways that they never would and may well regret (if they even remember it) as adults.

Also, as discussed in this article: "Granting Social Status; and, Not Getting Thrown Under the Bus", even women who like you will throw you under the bus if backed into a corner and this is the most socially expedient thing to do.

If it's something from the past, it's neither worth worrying about, nor holding against her.

If it's something she just did though, then she still hasn't come very far from her teenage years, and is probably socially stunted even into adulthood - not the kind of person you want to be involved with in any real way.

Chase

Gem's picture

Hey Chase, you had posted


Hey Chase,

you had posted http://www.girlschase.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2750&p=12417&hilit=... on the forum and I had really benefited from that post.

I’ve been reading a good deal from this lately because recently Ive been wanting some good advanced mentors in seduction but have been mostly lacking here.

There was a post here by Zan that I wanted to talk about: it’s something that I have felt very strongly, for a long time now and he summarizes the overarching quandary of it well:
____________________________________________
Every now and then I wax philosophical about this whole PUA stuff. What I mean
is - why do we feel the need to constantly be on the make? Something from our
childhood? Not enough attention from our mothers? Slight misogyny? Or are we
born with it in our genes?

You have to admit that true, natural PUAs are relatively rare. That's why they
are so fascinating to both guys and girls. Maybe 1% of the male population or
something. Most on this forum are in that percentile, while others on this
forum are very desirous of learning the techniques.

I think we must be born with it. After all, no matter how much an AFC admires a
PUA and wishes he could be like that as well, we are a breed apart. Most guys
do not have the intestinal fortitude or emotional makeup to become a player.
And quite frankly, there are a very large percentage of guys who, contrary to
the laws of evolution, have no interest in anything but a monogamous
relationship. Do you ever wonder what separates us from them? Chemical
differences? I dunno.

I've been doing this for probably a lot longer than you guys (I'm now 38), but
I cannot remember a time since I was in 1st grade that I didn't constantly
chase girls. I have always adored them.

In fact, just for context (and since this is anonymous), here is a bit about
me. As I said I am 38. I have a 14 year old daughter (I got a girl pregnant
when I was 24). She lives with her mom but stays over at my house 3 - 4 days
per week (limiting my social nights somewhat, but I love her, so fuck my social
life).

I have always been a player. Until just recently when I discovered this site, I
didn't know any of the terminology or techniques. I just did my own thing,
which is very similar to the stuff here. But I sure have learned a lot since I
started to lurk here a few weeks ago. If I had known SS back in my 20s, I would
have been extremely dangerous So good material, guys.

In my 20s, I did pretty good. In fact when I was 28, I slept with 86 girls in a
single year. You can call bullshit if you want and flame me, but I don't give a
shit what you think and I am wearing my flame retardant suit BTW, I'm not
the only one who keeps score, am I?

Then when I turned 29, I met this 17 year old that I started dating. We ended
up living together a year later(gasp from the crowd) and then 3 years ago, we
got married (crowd shudders and faints). Anyway, we were together 8.5 years. We
split up in January of this year, and that is why I am now participating on
this forum.

Just so you don't think I was too smitten by oneitis - when I started dating
her, I was actually dating her and her 18 year old best friend at the same time
- and I mean at the same time. Full on threesome for six months. And for any of
you guys that fantasize about two girls at once, by all means do it, but NEVER
FOR A LONG TIME with the same girls. I hated it. They were both emotionally
attached and it became one huge mind fuck. Never again.

So I eventually dumped the friend and continued seeing the one who I eventually
married. We had two or three 3ways with women over the years (my wife loves
women), but other than that it was oneitis with her.

I have always been comfortable talking to beautiful women, but I have to admit
I am now a little rusty. I've only been with 3 girls since we split up. You
guys have inspired me greatly.

I have no idea what the point of this post is. I am a little drunk and so I'm
rambling. I am just wondering about all this PUA stuff right now. I am getting
back in the game slowly. I have started to model scout again for my old agency
in Los Angeles (I live in Canada). No better way to meet ladies . In fact that
is how I met my wife and her friend.

Anyway, enough. Just wanted to know if any of you guys ever wonder about this
or not.

Flame away...

Zan
___________________________________________
What is it that separates the guy who actively just wants many women from the status quo? In my lifetime I can count on my fingers the amount of true naturals who have this drive to get many quality women and have been at it from early grade school or so on (less than 10, I can think of about 5 including myself).

I think here the distinction isn’t that you are born a natural but that you are born with a heightened desire to get more girls and this drives you to go out and learn to do so? It’s some weird phenomenon and makes it very tough to be exclusive to one girl but it’s a part of me too so I accept it as that you can say.

What are your thoughts on this?

-Gem

Chase Amante's picture

The Drive

Author

Gem-

From everything I've seen among various guys, it's maybe half and half heightened sex drive vs. personality disorders, with some mix in between.

e.g., some of the most prolific men with women I've known have been borderline personality disordered guys, or otherwise very emotional men - these are guys with lay counts in the 300+ range who are just absolutely prolific, but who are mortified of commitment and "date down" to avoid ending up with women they'd be genuinely afraid of losing. Men who are low empathy (socio / psychopaths - who aren't all serial killers; many are, rather, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and other similarly very successful leaders) are another prominent group (again, BPD and NPD men fall in here), and often pursue sex as much for the feeling of conquering and beating the competition and winning and controlling as anything else.

And there are just guys with very high levels of natural testosterone - the guys with the crazy 2D:4D ratios who were dosed with heavy amounts of T in the womb, and take steroids / have giant muscles, which are things that infuse large helpings of testosterone into the bloodstream, and testosterone is what drives a man's sex drive and partner counts. There was even a study that found that you could predict a man's lifetime sex partner count by measuring the size of his biceps - the larger the biceps, on average, the higher the total partner count.

That's what gets you rolling. I think once you reach a certain point though, it's just easy to stay single and sleep with more girls, because the fear of being alone (scarcity) that underpins the majority of men's desires to settle down simply isn't there, and the ability to get new women who are the sort you like is so easy that it's kind of a no brainer. The high of sleeping with someone new is always higher than the high of sleeping with someone you've been seeing for a long time.

So, I'd say it's just some large driving force to get you going - high natural testosterone levels, or a disordered personality that pushes you into seeking sex for validation or power - but then eventually it just becomes something that's easy and fun to get, and you lose the desire to settle down (if you ever had it) that most men experience after trying and failing to get laid repeatedly with girls they really like and start making lifestyle compromises in order to get those girls.

Chase

Mann's picture

Girls being insulting


Hey Chase,

I really likes your article, and I have a question. I have a quite small voice for a guy my age. i don't usually get laughed at about it but recently I was chatting with a girl i had known for about a month on phone. She let me talk to her friend who was around and she started making fun of my voice, and in a sarcastic way, later complimenting it. she got the group of girls laughing. How was i supposed to deal with this or "punish" her for this behavior?

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