Are You Giving Her Sex or Trading for It?


In the article on using astrology with girls, 340Breeze had a solid comment with an interesting part that I’ll quote in part here (because it’s pretty long):

Ultimately my question is: when interacting with a woman on a FIRST ‘date’ what is the BEST step by step process where the interaction with a woman ends essentially with the following proposal being issued to the woman: “I’m willing to give you A, but ONLY if you give me B?” where A = (what women value: dominance, sex and orgasms, scintillating conversation, active listening, etc) and B = (all the sex I can stand)? This proposal should be made on EVERY date, but the problem I face is, I don’t always know how to do it in a socially savvy and SMOOTH way on EVERY woman I take out. Because of this lack of finesse, I get nervous (mainly with the less sexually confident women) and hesitate, not because I’m afraid of her saying no, but because I’m afraid of my lack of finesse. This is illogical because who cares if some girl gets offended by my request, but my subconscious mind is fearful because it wants me to be as SMOOTH and subtle as possible. But at the end of the day, if she’s not giving up the vj and FAST then what’s the point in speaking to her?? I want to communicate to women that if they don’t give me sex FAST then I’m uninterested. I could just come out and say it explicitly, but maybe there’s a better way?

There’s a core worldview here that I think is pretty important to address, because it’s one that I see a lot of guys having, particularly when they’re newer, but even plenty of intermediate and a few advanced guys, too.

That world view is the “sex as trade” world view, where the man offers the woman things she values, and in return the woman provides the man with sex.

giving vs. trading

And to be fair, this isn’t an “incorrect” way of looking at things – it’s as valid as the next perspective. There are men who use this perspective in effective, elegant, and consistent ways. However, there is another perspective, and it is one that, in my opinion, makes intimacy with women a much easier and less daunting thing to pursue and get.

This perspective is not thinking of sex as something you receive from a woman in exchange for things you give her, but rather, something that you give her... in exchange for her meeting your requirements.


Giver or Trader

I divide people’s overall interpersonal interaction styles into “giving” and “trading”, and have for years. The breakdown is as follows:

  • Giving is granting someone a gift, favor, benefit, or boon with no expectations of receiving something back. It’s a prosocial strategy, and one stemming from a belief that by giving others good things, you are creating allies, building foundations, and investing in a positive long-term outlook for yourself

  • Trading, or transactional, is granting someone a gift, favor, benefit, or boon with expectations of immediate return. It’s a transactional strategy, focused principally on acquiring objects or achieving ends, with little to no concern given to the construction and maintenance of a long-term relationship with the other party involved

Most people use giving strategies with those they’re close with (good friends, family, partners in a relationship, other trusted people), while reserving trading strategies for strangers, acquaintances, and others they’re interacting with in one-off transactions they won’t see again.

Extremely prosocial individuals employ giving with everyone, even pushy salespeople; extremely antisocial individuals employs trading with everyone, even close friends and family members. This leads to extremely prosocial individuals often getting taken advantage of by unscrupulous strangers and acquaintances, and it also leads to extremely antisocial individuals taking advantage of close friends and family, and burning bridges with them.

Assuming you are at neither of the extreme ends of prosocial or antisocial behavior, though, your normal way of interacting with others is going to tend to be giving with those you know well and want to know well, and trading with those you don’t.

The challenge with new women you’re meeting, of course, is that trading is quite normally a high-tension, adversarial style of interaction, and women rarely feel comfortable disrobing and lying in their most exposed positions in front of men they’re engaged in high-tension, adversarial interactions with.

So how do you solve this?


Transactional Exchanges

It’s very possible for you to approach fast sex from a transactional perspective and get it consistently. Advanced trading strategies involve a man advertising himself very openly as a top shelf sex partner, and offering to trade good times for good times. If a man’s style is sufficiently well-constructed and fluid, there’s very little adversarial tension built up between women and him, and by being very clear about what he’s out for early into his interactions, he screens out the women who won’t be that open to what he has on offer and screens in the ones who will be.

Getting good at transactional sex exchanges is harder to learn than the alternative. It’s a high form of finesse game; it’s like being a great salesman. You’ve got to be able to sell the customer, without the customer feeling like you’re selling to her.

I won’t spend too much time talking about it here because the purpose of this article is to show you an easier perspective to get good with women with, but I do want to go out of my way to point out that this is neither a wrong approach, nor an ineffective one – in fact, for short-term sex, a well-oiled trading strategy is generally going to be faster, cleaner, more efficient, and often do a better job at setting the appropriate expectations (that is, that this is a one-off deal) without the extra footwork a giving strategy requires to do the same.

However, when you’re still learning, trading is a more difficult path to success, and by starting with this (rather than learning it later on down the line), you can often be shortchanging yourself some early results – and momentum.


Giving Exchanges

The alternative to trading is giving. When following a giving strategy, you don’t seek to find a woman who wants to engage in an equal trade with you for sex (or anything else); rather, you look for a woman whom you deem worthy to bestow the gift of your sex upon.

giving vs. trading

If you’re thinking you’d have to have an ego the size of a house and/or be totally delusional to see your sex as a “gift” to give to deserving women, don’t worry. That’s a pretty common first reaction to hearing this advice. When I first came across it some 8 years ago, I immediately thought, “That sounds awesome, but how on Earth am I really going to believe that?”

Let’s talk about the mentality itself first, and how you can get it second.

Actually having this mentality, you view your sex as an incredible, orgasmic, life affirming experience for a woman. When you enter into a woman’s life, it is to pluck her from the doldrums and mediocrity and ordinariness that is her day-in and day-out existence, and pull her into your world of excitement, intrigue, adventure, and infinite possibility... even if only for a night. And sexual intercourse is the ultimate culmination of the build up of this transition into your world for her; you end a breathtaking adventure into your world for her by entering her and putting all that excitement and intrigue and mystery into her through good, passionate, satisfying sex.

You will do it because you love women, and you view a beautiful woman living an uninspiring and ordinary life as one of the deepest tragedies the world knows, and you derive great joy from being able to lift a girl up out of her gray world and into your one alive with vibrant colors. And even when you have to set her back down into her world the next day and go on your way, you will leave her with a little more color in her world, and some idea about how to discover more.

This is how I genuinely view the sex that I give to women (though I certainly didn’t always); I see it as a great gift I give to women who are deserving of it, and I feel sad for the girl who does not get to experience it if things do not work out, viewing her as someone still lost in the confusing, gray maze that is her life, and whom I failed to reach and impact.

When you value your sex this highly, and view what you are doing for women simply by interacting with them and progressing things forward with them this way, it gets very easy to convey to women a level of dominance, attractiveness, and raw power it’s difficult to any other way.

Which, in turn, amplifies attraction – and close rates – a ton.


But Isn’t that Egotistical?

Well, I suppose it is!

And that’s a good thing, because, as we discussed in “A Devil May Care Attitude: What It Is & How to Get It”, pride is the single most attractive expression a man can have. Women love pride; not the kind of fake pride they show you in the movies, where some guy is trying to fool himself and others into believing he’s something he isn’t, and he looks tryhard and ridiculous, but actual, real pride... where a man is just solid, poised, and constantly looking like he knows something nobody else does.

Women may tell you they want to be treated “like equals”, but they’re talking about the treatment they want at school, in the workplace, in organizations, and from a legal rights perspective.

On dates and in the bedroom? They want male authority figures.

And there is little that sets you up as an authority figure quite like sitting with a woman and speaking and smiling with her in a way that communicates to her in crystal clear terms that you find her sweet, endearing, cute, and will give her something she will tremendously value... and yet that there is nothing she has or can do for you that you much need.

You are purely the giver, not the receiver. You are doing her a boon.

This “being able to give without needing anything of her” is very attractive to women, and they can positively smell it on you – because your behavior with them is very different from that of the man who is looking to trade (other than those men who are very skilled with this style).


Is She Worthy

The main component of the giving approach to sex is deep screening to find out whether a woman is someone “worthy” of having you bestow your gifts on her. This is very important – far more important for a giving approach than a transactional one – because how easily or not you give away your “gift” determines how valuable that gift appears to be.

If it seems like you give away the gift of your attention and sex to any girl who stumbles into you, it’s not really a “gift” at all – it’s more like the cheap handout some street hawker is trying to force on passersby – nobody values it, and nobody wants it either.

That’s why deep diving is so important for this interaction style. You can do without it if you’re running a transactional pickup – that’s one where it’s more or less just two people feeling each other up to see if they want to trade sex. When you find yourself in those situations, or with girls who are in a very transactional mindset, going giving can actually wreck your chances – where that’s the case, you want to set too much rapport aside, lest you come across as someone uninterested in cutting a deal.

The rest of the time though, you benefit much from good, probing, insightful rapport.

Being a giver of sex, rather than a trader of it, is especially necessary if your fundamentals aren’t on lock quite yet, or you don’t have other glaring attractiveness advantages (very good looking, lots of money to throw around conspicuously, preselection spilling out of your pants) to make up for said lack of fundamentals. In a situation in which a woman may not be willing to trade you for fast sex, she may very will still accept sex from you – provided it feels like an exclusive enough gift, and provided she feels like she’s getting it because she really has earned it.


A Gift Worth Giving

In addition to screening, you make your gift more worth giving (and more worth being received) by using the other things on this site to make yourself more attractive and dial up her desire for sex from you – things like Byronic personality traits, intrigue, emotional cresting, and chase framing.

When you position yourself as sufficiently challenging, to the point where you are just within a girl’s reach, while simultaneously screening her hard, qualifying her well, eliciting her values, and ultimately allowing her to win you over, all while not seeming actively to want something from her, she will begin to feel as though she has worked very hard to earn the thing you want to give her.

She’ll feel like she deserves that thing you want to give her... that she has it coming.

giving vs. trading

That thing, of course, is an incredible night – one that will be wonderful for her life.

When you take this mindset, your outlook on sex shifts – instead of looking for a woman who will give you sex, then feeling frustrated when you cannot find one (because you want/need something, and cannot get it), you instead look for a woman to whom you can give the gift of sex – a woman who is worthy of it, who passes your screens and meets your standards, and who is not so uptight or set on capturing you as a friend or a boyfriend that she cannot allow herself to accept this generous gift.

The emotion you feel when you do not find such a woman is sadness, that so many women must make do without the life and color you can bring into their worlds, and then you continue looking for women who are worthy of and ready for receiving you into their bedrooms and lives.


“God’s Gift to Women”

As a side note, this mentality is the basis of the “God’s gift to women” phrase you hear tossed about sometimes.

“There goes Jim... he thinks he’s just God’s gift to women.”

When you have this mentality, and adopt the giving mindset toward sleeping with girls, you come to have exactly that “God’s gift to women” belief.

But despite the ego/pride of it, it is not some sort of belief in yourself as superior to, or above the other men out there, or the women you go to bed with. Rather, it’s a very healthy, strong belief in YOUR value as a man, and what YOU offer to women.

As for how you get it – it’s part conditioning your mind to think this way (visualization helps), and part upgrading your ability to give pleasure and witnessing the pleasure you bring to women’s lives, in terms of inspiration, bonding and listening, and really good, sheet-soaking intimacy. Once you have trained yourself to think this way, and you’ve actually seen it, in the women you’ve been with, again and again, it’s hard not to just think this way all the time... sort of like how the business consultant who keeps stacking up cost savings for his clients pretty quickly comes to view himself as some kind of cost saving guru, just because, well, that’s what he is.

My advice on adopting this mindset is to focus not on what you can trade women for sex, but instead just on providing the most incredible, magical, memorable experience you can for the women you meet, filled with hope, connection, and plenty of orgasms. The more focused you are on the woman’s experience, the less affected by any specific outcome you become, and the more likely you are to actually get that outcome.

See yourself as a servant of women’s sexual needs – because I assure you, most of the other men out there aren’t doing so fine a job (see: “A Study of Sex Duration in America” – the average duration is about 3 minutes). That means there’s a tremendous amount of unmet need among the women of the world – might you be one of the select men suited to help fill it?

Give of your emotion and sensuality and sexuality to the women around you, and you will find an easier path toward having those gifts accepted than you will most of the time by looking to trade them. We are skeptical with those who wish to trade us, and spend much time haggling and negotiating; but with those who want to give us a gift, provided the gift seems sufficiently exclusive and feels like something we’ve earned, we don’t bother to question why they want to give it to us, or haggle on price or terms – we just accept it with a smile, and thank them for the gift.

Always,
Chase Amante

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Comments

Blue's picture

A gift worth accepting?


I am a girl and I like your site a lot! It's like a free pass into the boy brain :)

I for one cannot stand the "trader" attitude of some men. I mean it's not really much that they have to offer, how can they want something in return? A woman wants excitement and intimacy and orgasms, just as men do. The difference is when they get together in sex, men almost always get what they want but do women get their due? The answer is usually no! With the average man wanting to talk 5 minutes and perform in bed 3 minutes, there isn't much time for anything to happen for a woman. Plus women put themselves into more risks; pregnancy, STD, violence, etc. So if you want to show that your gift is worth accepting, show some quality of person, be funny, warm, exciting, be something!

RedPill Chick's picture

I'm a girl too


I'm also female and yet on here because I love learning what turns me on. This site has actually made me realise why I like dominance so much (I was beginning to worry I had daddy issues despite having a wonderful relationship with my dad).

Almost all my friends complain about the same thing you have. 3 minute wonders! My question to you is why are you not letting them please you first. Most times I'm getting intimate with a man that's the first place he is heading to lick me out.

I'm curious what I'm doing to make him head there and why yours is getting his satisfaction in 3 minutes and not considering you. Let's brain storm lol

Chase, come and teach the men of Sydney. They have NFI!!!!

Chase Amante's picture

Good Traders

Author

Blue-

Indeed. The trading approach can still be effective, done right - though usually that requires having a strong sexual presence and either hinting or outright stating that you are good in bed in ways that are believable to women (i.e., not saying, "I'm really good in bed, you know" or "You don't want to miss out on the best night of your life!"). I use this in more rapid interactions, where it's clear it's more or less what the girl is looking for, and some of our other writers use it as their primary style - Alek has a good example of it in his threesome how-to article, where he focuses mainly on just getting into a lot of (very fun) sex stories and little sexual adventures with the girls.

Trading's tough to pull off at the lower levels though, because, as you noted, most men don't have a whole lot to offer there... and those that do often haven't learned how to present it in a way that's believable to the women they meet, and sufficiently distinct from what all the other guys who can't really deliver say, too, which can be tough, so they end up sounding indistinguishable from the other lame guys out there who legitimately are worth passing over for girls.

Chase

340Breeze's picture

Clarifications and a Few Questions on Low Attainability Women


Thanks for the article. I like the perspective. I like the giving attitude. I've been trying to incorporate it more into my being because I've noticed over the years in living in America that most people never say hi to me to first. And even when I do say hi, it's harder still to get a lot of people to open up to me in non-superficial ways until I give something of myself. This is my life. If I give nothing then I get nothing. Nearly no one around me ever takes any social risk in being my friend until the point where I do something interesting, help them, or make token self-disclosures.

I think maybe we have a difference in opinion of what "transactional nature" means. You seem to not enjoy using this term "transactional nature" when talking about seduction because you interpret it as a means to an end, that a person wishing to transact has a specific purpose in mind (which may be sex or money or status or power or otherwise), and the only reason why that person enters into any interaction and acts in charming ways is to facilitate that purpose; i.e. to manipulate, if you will. So maybe the term has a negative connotation since some people view seduction as manipulation and they say seduction is wrong and shouldn't be taught. So if this is the perspective you're coming from when advising against using the term "transactional nature" to characterize seduction then I can see where you're coming from.

However, the way I interpret the term "transactional nature" is as an emotional value exchange. The things I say, do, talk about, etc.; i.e. the value I provide and the way I present it makes you excited (or at least intrigued hopefully), and in return, you might do things, introduce me to new concepts, stories, etc. which make me feel excited and warm. Then from there we have a positive-reinforcing feedback loop, where we both feel we're better off in life having met each other than we would have been otherwise. This is my model of "transactional nature" where positive emotions are exchanged.

If you look at how I phrased the transaction: “I’m willing to give you A, but ONLY if you give me B?” where A = (what women value: dominance, sex and orgasms, scintillating conversation, active listening, etc.) and B = (all the sex I can stand)?" you will see that part of the value exchange described there included me "giving her sex" as you touched on so eloquently here in this article. So the giving attitude (as you describe it in your article) has been part of my mental model formation all along. I guess what I was trying to say is when a man handles his fundamentals; he's going to inspire positive emotions in a woman. So to me, in this way, his dominance, sexiness, convo ability, charm, etc. are being used in an emotional exchange. Say I meet a girl, and by interacting with me she feels positive emotions, and she also feels DESIRED, and in turn if she trusts me and gets horny. Then she will be more likely (than she otherwise would be had I never said a word to her) to have sex with me. But the key point is, I had to act (to give good emotions) to get her to say YES to sex that I planned to give her. To me, this is a transaction (give to get). But the thing is, no matter how tight your fundamentals are, no matter how good your game is, even if you give certain girls good feelings, they still resist you and waste your time. So what I was trying to get at by my comment was, assuming a man has already handled much of his fundamentals, and women value what he gives her (i.e. she feels good in his presence) then the next question is how to be PUSHY about giving sex, but in a socially savvy way. It's all about finesse. I already have some ideas on that front. I'll relate to why I was asking about finesse below.

As you know attraction is emotional, it's not within our conscious control. But there are different tiers of attraction. Some girls inspire EXTREME attraction, because they're attainable, and they have a unique combination of looks, facial features, body type, voice tone, attitude, ambition, intellect, wit, and the way they fucking look at me! These girls I'm willing to persist for a week or two to get them despite heavy testing. Why because to me, they're a rare breed. So I don't mind putting in the work...But then there's been other women still who I may have had some level of attraction, but what I really feel for them is "meh, devil may care what happens." With these women, I don't persist too much if they erect barriers toward intimacy. I just don't want it that badly. These kinds of women (the ones who inspire a lukewarm response in me) are the ones who I need help with using finesse, especially when it comes to being PUSHY with them (and after they’ve shit-tested me or erected barriers toward intimacy). I'll get back to this later.

What I've learned when reflecting on my past transgressions is that the girls who I end up being REALLY attracted to, were the ones that EFFORTLESSLY seduced me with their BEINGS first. Just by them showing up, I was already intrigued. And then as soon as I said hi to them, their confidence and sexiness and smiles and warmth in receiving me were mesmerizing. The way they looked, smelled, behaved, thought, and presented themselves provided me with just the unique amount value where I couldn't control being excited. The conversation was extremely interesting broad and personal (both about her AND ME!) and it felt like I did not put in a whole lot of work to make things happen. In fact, I could just go off of the deep rapport we shared, sprinkle in a little sexiness and then persist on taking her on an adventure toward intimacy. So I agree wholeheartedly that when you find a girl that you just click with on all the right levels, it doesn't feel like a transaction. It feels more like fate, like let's do this NOW. This is how things FEEL! But from a logical standpoint, emotions are being traded back and forth (she makes me feel good so now I want to make her feel good, and so on). But anyways, with these girls, my finesse is natural. I just know what to say; I don't need to think on how to be pushy, or how to be socially savvy with them. Things just happen.

But what prompted the whole post however is I don't meet a lot of girls who have this ability to seduce me effortlessly with their being. I like being a giver of good feelings, but the problem I face is that my default state of operating around most people is usually nonchalance. Yes I like to feel excited, but most girls I meet, I'm like "meh, devil may care." But when I'm in nonchalant state, I can't genuinely give good feelings because I just don't care if you feel good or not. But women who don't meet my standards are still girls too and they still need loving. And I remember reading in one of your articles a while back that sometimes men need to lower their standards in order to upgrade their abilities with women. So in an effort to lower my standards (which I have no clue how to do it), I needed to learn more about finesse. Why? Because I don't know how to turn off my emotions (which is disdain when I'm near auto-rejection) to deal with a woman's testing and resistance. I already feel as if I'd be doing her a favor if we were to have sex (since she's below my standards), and then when she tests me or throws up resistance or feigns indifference or has a ridiculous attitude or acts as if she's superior to me or whatever obstacle she puts in the way of intimacy, I quit. Immediately. Like done. And I leave. It's like how can I persist with a woman who I don't even like anyway? I guess that's the ultimate test of a man's allegiance, see if he persists thru shit tests or if he leaves. I guess I fail their "tests." So with these women, who don't particularly excite me, I currently lack the desire and the finesse to persist thru any mistakes they make or thru any hard testing they may do. I just drop it like it's hot. Why? Because I don't give a fuck about the outcome! But one can never learn too much finesse, can they?

So I guess a better question to ask is: how did you emotionally allow yourself to lower your standards to the point where you could even approach a substandard woman (in terms of looks, etc)? And given that you did approach a sub-standard woman, how did you persist if she had low attainability issues (e.g. she shit-tested you heavily or gave you ridiculous attitude or acted superior to you)? I know you say girls are silly and cute, and that it’s no big deal, but for me, if I am indifferent to someone or something, I don’t get mad at them to the point where I respond with vehemence. Instead I get annoyed, and I need a compelling reason why I should focus any more attention on them/it.

It’s been my experience that most women give *me* some sort of resistance, but not always. With girls I really like, resistance is nothing. But for girls who I am nonchalant about, I don’t have the urge to expend any more energy than I feel I need to. So in anticipating that a substandard woman will have low attainability (i.e. give me resistance, heavy shit-tests, or have a ridiculous attitude etc.) I already know I’ll reject them on the spot if they do. Just get bored and stop talking. If she chooses to reengage so be it. If it’s on a date I’ll walk out if she pisses me off. So two questions: 1) what is your mental and emotional attitude on pursuing women below your standards; and 2) what do you do if a substandard woman has low attainability – do you persist or autoreject?

Again thanks for the time you take on this site. It’s been amazing upgrading myself. At first it started out about trying to get girls. Then I realized screw getting girls, this hard work is for me (and my future kids when I get them)!

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Franco's picture

Clarification


340,

After reading your long response, I admit I was a bit puzzled. It seems you were implying that you have great success with women you like and then fail with women you don't like.

...I'm not sure what the issue is here.

Are you implying that you want to learn with sleep with women you don't like for the sake of sleeping with more women? Personally, and I think most others can relate, I came to this website to sleep with women I do like. Any women that I slept with prior to the high quality women I sleep with now was for the sake of learning so that I could sleep with the higher quality women.

Unless maybe I'm mistaken and that you're saying that you can sleep easily with highly sexual women and struggle with more conservative women? In that case, I noticed you mentioned being "pushy;" in order to become persistent (a word I prefer over pushy, which generally has a negative connotation even though you're accomplishing something positive), you need to take action and actually try pushing boundaries. Say that sexual innuendo you normally wouldn't say; manhandle kiss a girl when you're finally alone with her; take a girl's hand and put it on your cock when you've been making out on the couch for a few minutes. These things become MUCH easier to do once you get past the initial barrier of just DOING them because you see the results they give you, and if executed correctly, they give you positive results.

Anyway, I hope I wasn't too much off the mark here, but clarification would be great.

- Franco

340Breeze's picture

Thanks for the insights


Thanks for the feedback Franco.

What I'm saying is for me, there are two kinds of girls. Those that have a strong initial effect on me (within the first 5 min I can tell this is a woman I must have) and those that don't. I've always been the kind of guy who needed some sort of interaction with a girl before I could tell if I really liked her or not. I learned from a long time ago to not go off of looks alone. And I've never had much of a problem getting girls that I really liked. In fact, for girls that I really like what happens is there is something about their being that seduces me first and then inspires me to in turn seduce them. They have a strong effect on me because there is something about their existence that is intoxicating to me. Within the first few minutes of conversation, they seduce me without even having to try hard. Maybe it's their outlook on life, or their wit, or their conversational ability and how they are interested in my interests too, or how they look at me, or their mental attitude and virtues or their confidence in themselves, their sexuality, their flirting game, etc. These kind of girls simply seduce me... just by me being in their presence. They inspire excitement in me, and what happens to me is that I feel as if I JUST HAVE TO HAVE THEM! For these kind of girls (doesn't matter if they're conservative or sexual or not) the seduction becomes FUN, like a theater. It doesn't matter if they give me any resistance because if they do resist me, I naturally and effortlessly find creative ways to win.

But the problem has always been that the ones that I am neutral and lukewarm to (who might be fine looking women) are the ones that I have problems with. And for me, I don't feel excitement for most girls that I meet. In fact, most girls I meet (at least here in my American city) I get this lukewarm, nonchalant feeling. Maybe it's a cultural thing. But the thing is, when I am lukewarm, I have to warm up to them, and I don't have strong willpower to persist if lukewarm girls give me ridiculous attitude or shit-test me heavily.

Many of the guys where I am from don't hide their sexuality at all, unlike here in elite America where things are much more subtle and nuanced and subject to interpretation. Difference in culture. When I was in junior high school (yes that's 12 and 13), there were guys back then who were way more aggressive with girls at that young age than I've seen since, especially in my later years while living here in this American city (for the most part). You guys talk about day game! There were some guys back in junior high who were so bold that they'd move on almost anything that walked during the day without worry or care about rejection. They didn't care if a girl was way older than them or not, they'd still try. It was a daily routine. For them life wasn't about capitalist accomplishments. Instead it was a more carefree attitude and a big part was all about who could get the most girls. Guys who could get the most girls were called "pussmen." Go figure.

Their aggressive and sexual attitude rubbed off on me of course, and although I was never as aggressive as some of them, I'd say I reached around a natural intermediate level before I came to this site. Many of those guys seemed to like women just for the sake of them being women. Personality was secondary. They had low standards for girls that they would hook up with. But I never had low standards at all. I always had to FEEL something for a woman. These guys could persist despite a woman (that alot of guys would deem as substandard) shit-testing them or acting coy or whatever. For these guys, it was all a game, all the thrill of the chase. But for me on the other hand, I could only persist with girls that I really liked. For others that I am lukewarm to, I autoreject if their attainability is too low.

The question really is the optimum patience threshold (i.e. how long should a man persist before he says screw this?) Maybe it's subjective and different for every man. But for me, I fear that I may stop persisting with some girls far too quickly. This doesn't happen with the girls who I really like because with them, I have a high-threshold for pain and I naturally persist hard and long. But for other girls that I'm lukewarm toward (i.e those that I don't feel a large amount of excitement for), my threshold for pain is very low. And if these girls have low attainability issues then I have little to no inspiration or patience to persist in the face of their tests. The second things become too difficult, I quit, cut bait, and move on.

But I was pondering recently that maybe I am shooting myself in the foot by being so trigger-happy in leaving lukewarm girls (with attainability issues) behind. I thought maybe if I have more patience and got to know them better, I'd slowly warm up to them, and then maybe I could get them to the point where they take off their masks, and maybe I might find a woman with amazing qualities. But I currently don't have the urge to wait to discover whether or not a woman that I am lukewarm toward is amazing or not, especially if she is shit-testing me or giving me hella resistance or acting like she is superior to me. I already feel like I'm doing her a favor by spending time with her and if she is giving me attitude or isn't getting with the program, and fast, then I'm done. Next.

But I've observed that not all guys think like this. Some enjoy the thrill of the chase with almost any woman. But for me, I only like the thrill of the chase with select women; i.e. those that inspire excitement in me. So my question to Chase (or you or whomever else would like to chime in) how much patience do you have with girls that you feel lukewarm toward (those that you want to lead toward intimacy), especially if they erect barriers to seduction? When do you drop them and move on? For me, depending on my mood, I persist at most twice and after that I'm done. It's weird, when the girls who I like resist me I like it. But for the girls that I'm lukewarm toward, when they resist me (especially if they do so in an abrasive or cocky manner) I get offended. In fact my neurons scream: "auto-reject this b*tch now, let's go find someone else!" But I'm trying to work on this.

So if you do choose to persist with women (with attainability issues) that you feel lukewarm toward, do you feel feelings of auto-rejection? If so, how did you come to override these feelings of auto-rejection and persist (say up to 12 times) with such girls? Like I said, some guys can do it. They enjoy the thrill of the chase with MOST women that they meet. But this is not how I'm wired. But I've been thinking, maybe I've been thinking about the problem all wrong, maybe there is a way for me to feel an emotional urge to persist a little harder with lukewarm/low-attainability girls. It's all a reward problem, and I don't feel as if the effort that I must expend to overcome these girls' resistance is worth the reward that I will get if I do.

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Franco's picture

Competition


I might be off the mark here, again, but I'm going to take a shot here.

It sounds like you're a lot more worried about what other guys are doing when they go for girls rather than what you're doing. If other guys want to go for every single girl because they enjoy the "chase," then let them do that. It is obvious through your message that you do not enjoy chasing women that you have no interest in, and if that's the case, then there's no reason to.

You'll often find that there's usually a "spark" right off the bat with women you really know you're going to enjoy. It seems like you recognize what this spark is. If you only want to engage in sexual relationships with women who give you that spark, then that is completely your choice. Just because other guys get kicks out of chasing girls regardless of their personality doesn't mean that you should be feeling the same way.

I've had several situations with girls where I've suddenly decided to stop moving things forward because they were SO dull. It was like talking to robots. They might be interested, but they just have no wit or personality and they answer questions in ways that don't excite you at all. At that point, I usually have to judge how "hot" the girl is and decide whether or not it's worth my time pushing forward (because she will turn me on when she's naked in my room) or cut ties with her because she's below my standards in the looks AND personality department. You always have a choice.

Anyway, don't let other guys influence what you think you should be doing. If you don't find chasing boring girls enjoyable, then don't do it. My only point I wanted to make is that, if you're not sleeping with any girls at ALL, then you'll want to reconsider being so quick to cut ties with girls because the experience is ALWAYS valuable, regardless of whether or not the experience was actually extremely enjoyable. The experience will help you move things forward with girls that WILL be very enjoyable.

- Franco

Chase Amante's picture

Giver with Girls You Don't Click With

Author

Breeze-

You’re similar to me in that when there’s a girl you just CLICK with, it’s easy. Whatever it is, you meet that girl and that is YOUR girl, you will get her with a modicum of fuss, pretty reliably. For me, the hardest part was learning to get those girls who you don’t immediately click with, and who give you resistance. My reactions for a long time to this were always, “What? THIS girl is rejecting ME? I don’t even LIKE her… she should be GLAD I’m pursuing her!” or, alternately, just, “Meh.”

Eventually what I realized is that this feeling is very often mutual, so just as when you’re “meh” about a girl, she’s usually going to tend to be “meh” about you. I spent a few years trying to figure out how much of that is under your control - for instance, I spent time reconditioning my preferences to have a lot more warmth toward bleached blondes, with whom I had a lot of mutual coldness before, and once I’d thawed out my attitude toward them, they thawed out theirs toward me, and I started getting a lot of girls who previously would’ve turned their noses up at me instead letting down their guards around me and being really soft and sweet and feminine and warm.

For me, this was transitioning from a lower-level version of the trading mindset - “All right, hey, I’m a pretty awesome guy, and I’m offering you sex, so you ought to be happy about that” (that’s different from the mindset of a guy running the trader mindset at the upper echelons - there, it’s more or less outcome independent, and instead it’s “Hey, here’s what I’ve got on offer - if you like it, let’s trade good times with one another; and if not, no worries, we’re all cool people! Maybe it’ll work out with your friend and I instead!”) and into a giving mindset - “I don’t know how this girl’s going to feel about me, but I’m just going to throw a bunch of warmth and smiles and sexiness at her and make her life better, and if she likes me, that’s good, and if it isn’t, at least I’ll have made her life better regardless.”

The hard part is, as you say, building enough tolerance to rejection that you don’t mind putting good emotions onto a girl. In your comment response to Franco, you mentioned trying to gauge how patient you ought to be; for me, the key is just escalating investment, and if she won’t comply with some key aspect of compliance, I will persist / do a hard push then and there, but if she absolutely is a brick wall and not bending, I’ll wish her well and go meet someone else. If it’s a date, I’ll say okay, and end the date. Nicely, considerately, but at that point it’s over. The mentality there is this: I’m giving her of myself, but it has to be on my terms. Since I’m the one doing all the giving, I also get to control the pace and direction of the interaction, and if at some point she decides that she doesn’t want to go along with things, I’ll read that as her saying the value I’m giving to her isn’t worth her time enough that she’d like to continue on with me to [whatever the next step is], and it’s time for us to part ways and her to find a more valuable use of her time, and me to find someone for whom my value is more valuable.

A good way of thinking about it is the mentor who gives you advice, but wants you to try out specific things. Even though he is giving to you, if you refuse to do the things he is telling you to do, he will rule you to be someone who doesn’t truly value his advice, and he will wish you well and move onto a menthe who actually wants to do what he tells them to do. So, even though he is the giver, as the receiver you must do things on his terms in order to continue receiving value from him.

That’s contrasted with a trading mindset, which is where I give you a piece of advice in return for you giving me a piece of advice, and we’re coming at it more from a position of equals than the giver mindset, where one person is giving and directing and the other person is accepting and following.

When you run up against resistance to your leadership here, it’s best to persist (hard push) if you can, and if still no dice, cut bait and move on to a more willing recipient of what you have to offer.

SO… there’s a lot you can do with resetting your mentality in the direction of being a giver. Visualizations help quite a bit; for this, you want to visualize meeting the kinds of women you’d normally throw your hands up with, and instead meeting them, and being warm and exciting and sexual with them, and having them receive you very well. My guess at why this seems to work is that it softens your subconscious reactions to these kinds of girls, whom otherwise you’d give yourself away with an early or instant “meh” reaction they can read all over your expressions and body language, even if you think you have a good poker face.

Softening your edge + ramping up your fundamentals toward non-love-at-first-sight girls goes a long way toward making them more compliant with you and being more willing to go along with you as you advance your interactions with them. Ultimately though, to pull off the giver approach, you need to be prepared to give of yourself while continually escalating the interaction, and persisting for the girl to go along with you or alternately wishing her a sad farewell if she will not. (the “sad farewell” part is fun; girls will sometimes re-approach you after one of these, and be much more compliant, once they have a moment to go off and think and compare you to the other men they’re meeting and realize you were providing all kinds of awesome things for them and all you were asking for is just for the girl to keep coming along with you - that’s not so much to ask ;)

Also, I'd stress that much of the time those women you aren't that into are cold with you isn't because they think they're out of your league, but because they think you're out of them. That's why softening your edge works; because if they think you think you're superior to them, and then you ACT (even if it's subtle) as though you believe that, because you do, they'll be difficult and reserved from the get-go in order to preserve their egos (so that when the inevitable disappointment comes, they can tell themselves it was their decision). When you soften your edge with them, and focus on warmth, sensuality, and adventure, they feel comfortable letting their guards down with you, and you get a lot less resistance.

Chase

340Breeze's picture

Thanks man!


Thanks for the insights! This is exactly what I needed...to reframe the problem.

I'll keep it in mind to be warmer and see how much it helps people (in general) open up to me. Thing is, with me, it doesn't take me long to open up because I'm not all that worried about looking bad in front of other people and having them reject me. I've been teased, ostracized, insulted, etc when I was younger and I had to learn how to deal with those emotions of rejection (on my own) from a long time ago. But alot of people (women) don't think like me.

So for me, it's not even in my conscious mind that I need to take the edge off because I've already seen and conquered dealing with assholes. So this is my challenge, to be on the other side, a caretaker of emotions. I've been told by a few women that I'm intimidating, and they always say they don't know why exactly... I'll see how this goes!

Thanks again man... there's nothing more paramount than helping another human being upgrade his mental models.

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Jonas's picture

some stuff regarding this article


Hello, Mr. Amante

I read many of your articles past 2 months but I think this one should be labeled as for more advanced people. I mean, information written here is based on the fact that you have a certain level of game. Your whole site feels to me like a shop in some game. You have these techniques, "mindset breakers", how tos, believes, strategies and planning, practical advice. And you just have to pick it out based on what you need. But you dont see that "to unlock and fully use this item, leve 85 is required".
Thing that confused me is "newer guys". I am 23-year-old virgin and you want me to think of it as a gift to other girls? Well, this question may be stupid to you because I am sure you did not mean it that way. But newer means someone who is not really sure of what he is doing. And you seem to want him to believe in something he does not trully believe himself. It is not like wood chopping where you just tell him, you are doing it right, believe me, because you know it does not really matter how he slashes that trunk, yet he is not sure because you slice that shit perfectly in half, your technique is top noch. I mean, someone could ask him, if he can chop wood, and he could say yes, because you showed him how, but he cant start to be like you and my perspective is that he needs to be like you, to chop that perfectly before he can chop it for others. In business world, they always tell you - do not wait until your product is perfect, just get it out there. But the point I am getting to with this big metaphore is - this guy has very little sex experience if any, and he competes with many others, with a endless supply for any girl of other guys that can offer her the same if not better. I think for a reasonably good looking girl it is not THAT easy to just get sex as you say but I am sure there are some that just know how to get it. It depends on her own game, she needs to refine it over the years but my guess would be they usually hope you will make it happen because they are not really sure how to get you themselves. But just gorgeous girl gets to talk to many guys, she can choose. And the condition I have - a sense of fairness towards others, I dont want to look like a scam, so I know as a virgin my first sex with a girl will not be great. Therefore I cant just "act like a pimp" (exaggerated).

Also, that part about about how women want to be equals it created a thought in my mind. The reason many guys think wrong what women want is because they take what she says, apply subconsciously their primal point of view as a guy that women = sex objects, thefore everything she says and "wants" needs to be met in order for them to get sex from her?

At the end I realized how I am this kind of giving person, but as a friend. My parents, grandma and some other people like teachers and these - that right now seem like have no real authority to say - called me a good, kindhearted person. So I wanted to show my goodness which made me collect many seats in friendzone.

Anyways, I am exactly the opposite now. I always thought of myself as the second violin. I saw these other dudes that were greater than me. I am a team player, I do well at sports but I am not the guy who leads the team. I can just try as hard as I can, get my shit done and hope for them to see it and maybe get inspired or I dont know. I also played some Korean online game where you had to grind hard. I had time, so I could put it in because I am nerd, but there, I was someone among like 600 people, I made videos, I helped people, some even (it sounded stupid to me) wanted to be like be because "I was their idol". It was easy because I was just sitting there and clicking on mouse and keyboard. But I cant do it in life as it is because I really suck at life. It feels like I had to build PC with my own hands first, starting with nothing, than I could somehow get internet, download that game and than keep playing. If I won some huge amount of money I would do everything I could to help others, I would just make sure my life situation is the same as it is now and then would just offer other people what I found out they lacked. I would make it my personal mission to just find what they need and make it happen. Like they always wanted to go to Japan so I would left plane tickets with hotel reservations, everything taken care of in an envelope and put it in their mail box in front of their house. But I am ranting now a lot.

How do you really change this mindset - that life is hard? I heard that a person just has to do a lot of shit before he can trully trust in his abilities. I am skinny, skin problems, but am tall and fairly well dressed. However, my social skills are bad, I cant have fun as other people because I was raised as a sports player. Train hard, do this shit, follow routine, and I cant "just relax". Contrary to that I read, I sometimes play games because it falls under my "management of tranquility" but group social interations are not relaxation for me because I am introverted. But I feel I have a potential to be social. However, I come from a background where I am a follower, I know how fucked up as a person I am, no charisma, not really fun to be around aht these kind of things and my overall skills for LIFE are not really that great. Becaue kicking a ball or throwing it or running really fast does not help me to lets say get work visa to USA and work in California as a lifeguard as my friend will this summer. Well, maybe that physical part I could do, but that over all catering. It comes back to what I stated before - I judge people based on experience and I cant just tell myself my "sex" will be better than this guy, where in reality I had never seen a girl naked. So simply said, do I just need to get off my ass and go out and get the experience, while focusing on certain things each couple of months. Accept every invitation for social gathering, even tho I dont feel like it because I would be awkward there and such?

sorry for not using ' in words like don't, let's and so on, it takes quite a lot of time on mz keyboard to type that :-)

Thank you and have a nice day,
Jonas

Chase Amante's picture

Starting Out

Author

Jonas-

Good point here. I realize it can be difficult to get a bead on what you should be focusing and what not when you’re starting out. This is definitely an article for more advanced guys… you won’t be able to pull this mindset shift off with few or no experiences with women yet.

The part about guys thinking everything women say are just requirements that must be met to get to sex is a great observation. This does seem to be how many men think: “Oh, she wants to be treated as an equal? Okay! As soon as I can show her how much of an equal I treat her, we’ll be rocking the bed posts!” When you don’t have a good understanding of how another person thinks or the way her mind or desires work, you’ll tend to look for any signs and patterns you can get your hands on and interpret them every which way.

If you’re a giver by nature, as a friend, you’ll have an easier time transitioning into a giver mindset with seduction. The easiest way to do this is to say to yourself, “I’m going to focus to learn on, instead of providing value by being a good friend and someone who does nice things for people, I’m instead going to focus on providing women good, exciting emotions, through sexual tension, inspiration, and emotional contagion.”

And when you start out at this, you will suck, and you’ll be horrible at it, and you’ll beat yourself up at what a crappy job you’re doing of bringing emotions like arousal and excitement into the lives of the women you meet. And you’ll go through feeling like some kind of a clueless failure, and it’ll be frustrating, and you’ll think you’ll never get it.

But, if you keep focused on it, and keep persisting at it, and keep chipping away at it bit by bit, you’ll start noticing after a while that you’ve just started getting better and better. And then one day, you realize you’re amazing at it, and it’s not even something you try to do anymore - now it’s just automatic.

Learning any new thing is hard at first, and the things that have social rejection built into their learning curves are among the hardest. Skill-building has all the hard stuff front-loaded into the very beginning, because the very beginning is where you suck the most, deal with the most rejection, see the least (usually, NO) success, and are the farthest from where you eventually want to get to. Once you climb out of the “beginner hole” though, everything after that just gets easier and easier, because compared to where you started out at, you just become progressively more adept, more powerful, and more liberated.

When I started, yes, like you, I started accepting every social opportunity that wasn’t going to put me in danger or get me arrested. Party invite? Yes. Go to a club with someone? Sure. Go to this random event for charity? Yeah, okay… let’s do it. Scary overseas trip when I don’t like traveling? Sign me up. Saying “yes” to everything you can (within reason) can dramatically change your outlook, and put you into all kinds of uncomfortable social situations that force you to adapt. You start out much more awkward than everyone else, but after a while, you become so well-versed socially by doing all these crazy things that NO one else does (other people do a few of them each, but they mostly stick to “their” areas, and turn down all opportunities outside of them - you, by contrast, dabble in EVERY area, and eventually become comfortable in all of them) that you outclass everyone else socially.

Maybe think of real-life skill-building like a reverse of the online gaming world. In video games, it starts off pretty easy to progress, but then gets slower and slower and more and more brutal as you level up. In real life, it’s the opposite - it’s really slow-going and very brutal when you start out, but as you go along it gets easier and easier and more and more fun. The biggest part of success is outlasting that tough stretch at the very beginning - if you can make it through that and acquire the base level of skill you need to reach the point where working on your socializing is “not too bad”, you’re set from there.

Chase

jake's picture

Hey Chase, This is an


Hey Chase,
This is an uncomfortable question for me to ask and most likely for you to answer but....... ever since I saw a porno where a guy licked a girls butt. I just can't get it out of my head how erotic it is. Do girls actually like it, is it safe?
Sorry ot ask.

Nick's picture

Hey Jake,No worries, this


Hey Jake,
No worries, this kind of stuff is actually starting to become less taboo and yes girls love, it is wild, different and when you are rubbing her clit while fingering her d or g spot its like no other feeling for her!
Anyway, if the girl has no stds the worst you will most likely get is e-coli to my knowledge, which is like going to taco bell and getting foodsick. You could also get pink eye if you touch her brown eye and then rub your eye with the same finger so don't do that.
So, just check with a sniff first, if it smells stay away from there! If it taste like pennies stay away from there(it should taste like normal skin,doesn't have a taste) and just to be safe I would personally only allow this privilege to your girlfriend. I do this and never experience any difficulty afterwords getting sick.
If your girl doesn't clean as good down there as other girls, then do it right when she gets out of the shower, give her amazing orgasmic sex, then afterwords tell her in her ear how you love how clean and tidy she is down there and how you love how she tastes. She will start making a real effort to keep clean after that.

Cheers and much success,
Nick

Flames's picture

A good attitude


I'm firmly in the giver frame of mind and always have been.

I don't really understand the trading mentality TBH. With that mindset either one of you is usually going to be 'disappointed'. Either the girl is going to think she traded herself off 'cheaply' with the guy thinking he's got a bargain. Or the guy will end up wanting more than the girl will give. It doesn't sound too healthy to me either way.

That's just my perspective on it anyway. :)

Regards
Flames

Chase Amante's picture

Trading Done Right

Author

Flames-

Trading can still be effective, but it requires a higher degree of skill than what a lot of guys using it employ (usually found by doing trading less skillfully long enough to figure out how to get it to work).

The way you want it to go is by being very upfront about what you can provide, and doing so in an appealing and convincing way, and then going above and beyond to deliver on that. The delivery is the important part in the end game of trading - if you deliver more than promised, you're guaranteed a happy customer ;) And if you're a more experienced trader, you'll typically go into your interactions with no expectations, which makes it hard/impossible for you to be disappointed.

That said, I agree with you that most guys you see employing a trading style aren't in those upper echelons, and they use it in a way that leads to disappointment on one person's end (or sometimes both). Once a guy is legitimately free of expectations, and goes above and beyond providing whatever expectations he set the girl to have, you end up with a situation where an even trade is made and a good time is genuinely had by all.

Chase

Blue's picture

RedPill Chick


Never put a label on yourself because you like something sexually!

Biologically, you like dominance because it is a display of testosterone levels of a man which in turn interprets into stronger offspring, survival likelihood, etc. Your brain has a little spot where it just picks up on the "testosterone indicating" behaviours and communicates that to your "pleasure areas", then you think what he did turned you on. (I'm a neuroscientist)

Maybe Men go for licking or fucking in an instant because they think if they are not fast enough we'll shut them down! As if there is a window of opportunity loool Or they're horny beyond their control but I have examples of men in mind that are not out of control horny but still want to be quick. In either case it doesn't feel like a gift they're giving, but like a thief in the night who's steeling what he can't otherwise have.

Guys, have any ideas??

jayjay's picture

that sounds like a good


that sounds like a good reason though I am not in a specialized field, also lots of guys especially newbies put tons of pressure on themselves, trying not to cum, they think about it so much in the act they can't help themselves, some mens desire for a women is so strong that it clouds their thoughts and they forget about the girls needs, some men are just jerks and only care about themselves, most reasons though I think are do to inexperience and not actively trying to work on being better at sex.

Personally I world just avoid losers Blue and that will take care of most of those problems. =)

And yeah thinking on it maybe what you are saying is correct that man has to impregnate a women as fast as possible before another man does and that could have been a huge problem thousands of years and men of today still have those instincts that would have helped them so long ago.

Franco's picture

Guys Just Don't Have a Clue


Blue,

Unfortunately, the answer to this one is that there are MANY answers. To be honest, 95% of guys out there don't really know what they are doing when it comes to sex.

Some guys are just trying to get their rocks off and either (a) don't think you care or (b) don't know how to get you off. Some guys have just followed the same pattern that (they assume) worked with one girl who might have been inexperienced and think they are doing a good job. Some guys have been told how to do things by friends or siblings because they heard it was good. Some guys just imitate what they see in porn. Some guys just don't know that orgasms for females are important. Some are under the belief that not every female can orgasm!

There are so many different reasons why a guy may not perform the way you hope a man would in the bedroom, and most of them just have to do with being uneducated and/or lazy. This is why this website has been such an invaluable source of information -- it has listed exactly what it is that ALL women want, and it gives you the EXACT steps for giving it to them. This website is the handbook to women, and it's unfortunate that not every guy has one (although I guess that makes us few, elite individuals VERY fortunate)!

Anyway, most guys never think of sex as "stealing" something from you, and the ones that do... well, you should cut ties with them immediately. No one likes thieves!

Find a man who's a giver in the bedroom; as for me, my girl never goes home without at least a few body-melting orgasms. I always make sure my girl knows I'm a sex god. ;)

- Franco

Flames's picture

Actually, that brings up a


Actually, that brings up a point.

Quite a lot of women don't actually tell a guy what they're in the mood for, I'm usually fairly good at working it out, but a lot of guys think that what works for one women sexually works for them all.

And the girl just lays back, then complains about it after to her friends. :)

Regards
Flames

Anonymous's picture

Advice please


Last Saturday night I got an anonymous (in that the number calling appeared as Private Caller on my phone) call from a girl who immediately initiated phone sex with me. She didn't give me her real name when I asked who it was, but her voice sounded familiar to me. I went along with it anyway, but it was awkward and I was unprepared for it, but it got steamy after a while. Eventually she said she wanted to meet up with me and have the real thing, the only thing stopping me was the logistics: we lived on opposite sides of town, I don't have a car (saving up for one), it was negative temperatures outside and frostbite was a concern so I could not walk, and she was only willing to meet halfway between our locations (over 3 mi from my place). Eventually we just reluctantly decided to have more phone sex, and after 20 mins and a second orgasm on her end she gave an excuse to hang up the phone and I encouraged her to call me again, which she said she might (I'm worried that she won't). I've narrowed it down to who it could be and I found her on Facebook, but it says she's in a relationship. I also have not spoken to her in a few years prior to this. I'm not even 100% sure it was her who made the call, the familiar sounding voice and her general location were my only clues.

Anyway I didn't post this to brag, I have a question for anyone who can give me some advice. As a 19 y/o virgin guy I would VERY much like to sleep with her, but I'm not sure how to get to where she would agree to meet up for sex. I recently aquired transportation (use of a friends car) and what I believe to be her phone number. My question is should I initiate surprise phone sex (like what she did to me), wait for her to MAYBE call me back, should I talk to her on facebook (and what should I say?), or was that the only chance with her I might have had? I'm turning here for advice because I don't have much/any experience with girls, and I feel pretty hopeless. I do know how desperate this makes me look...

This site ROCKS and I hope it continues being as active as it is for a very long time!

Chase Amante's picture

Mysterious Phone Sex Caller

Author

Anon-

Anything you do from this point is probably a pretty iffy play, but you seem aware of that, so at least that's good.

Not having had this happen to me (or knowing any stories similar to this one), my speculative guess would be that she's someone who gets off on the thrill of dangerous-ish behavior that's still sufficiently safe that she doesn't think she'll be found out. I would bet that had you been able to drive and go meet her, she would have backed off and not given you an address (or not shown up had you left to go meet her somewhere); however, the best shot at getting her out would have been before the second round of phone sex, where she was asking for more; that's the point where you'd want to say, "That's all you get over the phone - if you want more, it's going to have to be in the flesh," and then make her come meet you if she wants to continue the interaction. Once you de-escalate from, "Let's meet up!" to, "Let's go back and do more phone sex," the interaction is going backwards and you're winding down and away from sex. Once she climaxes again, she's finished and no longer needs you (good general advice for getting a girl all the way to sex: you may get a girl close, but don't actually allow her to climax until your penis is inside her).

If I had her phone number and was pretty sure it was her, I'd go about things personally by finding a way to call HER with a blocked number, at around the same time of day / same day of the week, and just do the same thing back to her she'd just done to me; use a different name, and the same escalation process. I'd then get her very excited and aroused, but not allow her to climax; wouldn't suggest a meetup, and instead would wait for her to, and tell her things like, "I have a car now, but I don't know if us getting together is such a good idea... if we do, I'm going to completely ravish you, and I don't know if you can handle that," and just keep building it up until she's begging you to come see her very much.

Of course, there's a good chance that you call her and she plays dumb; "Uh, what? Who's this? Umm..."

But, hey, if you're calling from a blocked number yourself, no real risk there to you, and it's probably the best shot you have. You never know... although if you pull it off, I do hope you leave a comment or share on the boards; I'd be curious to see if this one goes anywhere!

Chase

Dr. Gonzo's picture

Foreplay


Chase; as always, great article. I had a quick question, though. When I'm getting intimate with a girl in bed, I usually start with her on her back and I begin to slowly run my hands around her body barely touching her skin so she gets goosebumps; then, after that, I usually go with kissing up and down her body (literally from her neck, ears, stomach, to pussy even with her pants still on). Are there better ways that you employ for seducing a girl prior to sleeping with her? Also, what is the proper amount of time (ballpark) for performing cunnilingus on a girl before proceeding to intercourse? I have sometimes found that it backfires to bring a girl to orgasm by that method prior to sex (she is no longer eager to engage), but I have also experienced the opposite where she goes crazy soon thereafter. What is/are the most successful method(s) you've employed? Thanks, Chase.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Foreplay

Author

Dr. Gonzo-

Hey, long time no see. Yes, I like running fingers very lightly on a girl's skin too... most women seem to enjoy this a great deal. One of the most enjoyable ways to use this is cupping your palm over the cusp of a girl's breast, fingers spread out, and lightly dragging the fingers up and to the cusp until they all lightly close in around her nipple and stroke it as your hand pulls back. Just about every girl finds this very arousing.

Teasing is the biggest arousal switch there is. If you want to turn a girl on like crazy, kiss around her nipples, pussy, other sensitive bits, etc., and act like you're just about to kiss / lick the sensitive bit... then don't. Keep moving, kissing and licking elsewhere around it. This drives a girl wild, and by the time you finally give her some satisfaction and go to work on the part in question, she's already moaning.

I don't do a whole lot of oral, so I might be biased against here, but if I'm going to do it, I don't usually do it for more than 5 minutes. Partly that's because I'd rather be having sex with her, partly that's because after 5 minutes my tongue feels like it's going to detach from the bottom of my mouth and fly out of there, and partly it's because if you do a good job of it and go much longer than this, she's likely to orgasm from oral, which, yeah, sometimes the girl goes wild after, but other times (largely depending on the girl and how excited she is) now she's just going to be lower energy about sex and hard to make climax. This, too, is a tease, because you get her close to climax... and then you just stop. And then you start having regular sex, but now she's even more warmed up, and cums easier and more powerfully than she would have otherwise.

The longer the building up and teasing is, the more excited she'll be - if you're riding around town making out with her and playing with her body between dinner and drinks, but constantly pulling away from her and cutting it off and telling her that's all she gets, that's it for now, she'll become insatiable. The hardest orgasms I've gotten from girls have been the ones that followed a protracted build up outdoors like this, where the girl wasn't sure or not whether we were actually going to end up alone and shagging. By the time you get her alone, she's ready to blow her top already.

Chase

Funman's picture

Giving/ Paying for first dates etc


Hi Chase,

1) I know you are not an advocate of paying on first dates. However, I have heard a lot of girls say “if a guy asks me out, he should pay”.

2) If you meet a girl for something simple like having 2 drinks or a cup of coffee etc, would a girl view you as a cheapskate or a non-classy guy, who doesn't pay for something which is inexpensive?

3) Does paying on a first date, makes a guy look weak? Would it hurt sexual chemistry? Would a girl not view the guy as a “lover” just because he paid for a coffee/ 2 drinks?

4) Currently when you go out on first dates with girls, do they automatically assume you will not pay?

5) Have you written an article on Sexual chemistry? How to create sexual chemistry on dates , what things men do to destroy sexual chemistry in an interaction?

Funman

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Giving/ Paying for first dates etc

Author

Funman-

I've heard a lot of girls say that, too. Including many of the girls I've asked out who paid for me and then slept with me immediately after that on the date. I think the main point of confusion here is that going out with me is not something that women consider a "date"; the term date seems to be reserved in most women's minds for meeting with potential long-term candidates... something that I am not.

So, I suppose, if you are competing for the boyfriend role, that probably makes more sense. If you're someone she just views as a sexy guy she might sleep with or be friends with, but definitely not date, the rule goes out the window because you don't fit nicely into the boyfriend prospect box.

Whether you will look weak or not paying for drinks depends somewhat on how you present yourself overall. If you present as the stylish-but-vagabond world traveler, as I like to, racing to pay for a girl seems incongruent, since neither am I made of money, nor am I courting her for a prospective long-term role. However, if you're an older guy, well-established, courting a woman, not paying may well come across incongruent here; in this case, you'd want to pay. It depends on you and the situation.

Most of the dates I go on, women seem to either assume that there's no way I can or should pay for them, and if I did, it'd be weird; much of the time, they feel as though the value differential demands that they pay - that is to say, I spend the whole date providing so much emotional value that asking me to pay would be like someone coming to help you move into your new apartment, and then the two of you going out for dinner after and you asking him to pick up the tab. It'd just be weird and awkward.

What you're calling "sexual chemistry" I call "sexual tension", but it's the same thing: the building up of that buzz of excitement and anticipation that occurs as it becomes clearer and clearer that something sexual can and possibly will happen between two people. There are a variety of articles on the site dealing with building up the sexual vibe, but this one's a good catchall primer: "Sexual Tension: 7 Ways to Make Women Excited and Randy"; and, for dealing with things that kill the mood, see this one: "Emotional Cresting: What It Is and How to Use It."

Chase

Wolf's picture

Willpower


Thanks for the advice chase, I wanted to elaborate more on the one situation from my last comment about the past. The part was about the people talking trash from about the past. These guys are not my friends, these are guys I see around and they just bring up shit, like remember that embarrassing time this happened back in middle school? Haha. I just wanted to know how to respond to it? Do I say that didn't happen or do I try to beat them up?

And do you also think you can make an article about developing willpower? Thanks man

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Willpower

Author

Wolf-

Sure; noted on the willpower article.

On the annoying guys, I'd just tool them back by playing dumb every time and making them work and work and get no satisfaction:

Dude: Yo Wolf, remember that time in sixth grade when Bill pants'd you?

Wolf: Nah, man, what happened?

Dude: You remember - I know you do. Bill pulled your pants down in front of the whole school! No WAY you could forget that shit!

Wolf: Naw, I don't remember, man. Can you tell me the story?

Dude: You were standing in the recess yard, and Bill walked right up to you from behind and was like, "Pants'd!" and yanked your pants down, and your goddamn underwear went right with it! Everyone saw your greasy balls!

Wolf: I don't remember that, but it sounds epic. I'll catch you later, man.

Just every time, play dumb. "Huh?" "Nah, I don't remember it." "Can you tell me? I don't remember." "You'll have to tell me what happened man, 'cause I don't remember it." "Nah, still don't remember it." Don't accuse; don't act like it's coming back to you; just keep saying you don't remember it, and keep asking him to tell you the story.

Eventually he'll wise up and realize that you're tooling him back by playing dumb and forcing him to put in all that extra work telling you a story you already knew, or by talking about stuff from a long time ago that you treat like it's irrelevant, and he'll feel like a fool. So long as you just keep playing dumb and acting like you never remember and just keep asking him to tell you about it, you win.

Chase

African boyo's picture

Relationship skill


Hi chase

I just wanted to get your opinion on what the end goal or success criterion for devoloping the skill of running relationships. In purely pick up terms the end goal is absolute abundance and in the skill of sex its consistently providing orgasms. Im just interested in finding out what you think the end goal is for developing the ability to run relationships.

Chase Amante's picture

Relationship End Goal

Author

Boyo-

I'd consider the end goal of getting good at relationships to be the ability to build great, healthy, positive relationships with women, while accepting that no relationship will last forever (it may end in 4 months when you move overseas, or 4 years when you find her sleeping with the pool boy, or 4 decades when you have a stroke and pass away; but one way or another, some day it will end), and being totally okay with that. Essentially, outcome independence for relationships: I will stay in this relationship so long as it is good for both partners, and as soon as it is not good for both partners, we'll end, and we'll end it without too much turmoil.

I'd also consider the ability to end relationships with minimal damage to either party, and to avoid the "destroy each other at the end of the relationship!" phenomenon many people go through, as a paramount skill to be learned.

So - relationships are wonderful, amazing, and necessary; but they're also impermanent, and you can never "own" or "possess" another person, and if things change, at some point, no matter how in love you are at the beginning, later on down the road one or both of you may want out, and that's normal. It might be 3 months in; it might be after you've had a few children and it was good for a while but now the magic just isn't there. It might not be until you hit middle age, and realize that you're no longer on the same trajectory in life anymore. Most people cannot accept the impermanence of relationships, and fight as hard as they can to believe in building something permanent and everlasting; when you can let go of that and be at peace with the uncertainty of your future relationships (maybe your next one will last until the day you die; maybe it won't), you'll have gotten there.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Video Analysis


Hows it going Chase,
I have just found your site a little bit ago and have started taking your advice on social interactions. I have been going out testing your material and have been looking at videos and movies and really trying to examine what is going on and how characters and people interact with each other, the battle of frame control, people putting others down and how they respond and so on so on.

Now I have watched this one interview and it has Russell Brand in it, and he is known for being controversial, extreme personality, how sexual he is with women in front of an audience, and his show and tour, though also witty and eloquent.

Now the video starts off with the anchors already showing some sort of bias I want to say, the main girl opens off with a comment like she is above what Russel does. Right from the start it seems the anchors already made their judgements The whole it just the anchors seem to be teasing him and what he wears, Russell is shown to throw some stuff back, also teases and compliments the girl in blue to keep her on her toes and makes them nervous, and at the end I am not sure if they are laughing at him or they are laughing for being nervous?

The video title states that Russel owned them, is it that way or the other way around? Unfortunately, I am very new to this stuff, social dynamics and a thorough second by second take of what actually happened from you if you have the time =), the direct and subtle details, and what would of been the optimal solution for Russel to take when meeting people who have already made a judgement on you, it seems these type of shows just try to bring people on they can roast for their own amusement or ratings and not good and enlightening discussion? It would really help me.

Heres the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5WGYQ45SKU

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Video Analysis

Author

Anon-

Yes, Brand did an excellent job turning around a skeptical / hostile interview situation in his favor. The interview started off with him positioned a fair distance from the three anchors (he's kind of out in space there at the table - if I was him, I would've repositioned myself once the camera were rolling to be closer to the lone female anchor), and the male anchor actively trying to tool him on his appearance, accent, and a variety of other things. Brand started acting really bored when the male anchor started talking at one point, then interrupted him to talk about something more interesting ("Oh, look at all the people! What are they doing back there?").

He also spent most of the interview in "meta" - that is, telling them what they are doing and verbalizing the metaframe of the interaction. This is challenging for most people to learn how to do, but it instantly places you in control of an interaction when you can do it (e.g., pointing out that the male news anchor is focused on the superficial when he should be finding out more substantive things; asking them if this is what they do for a living when they all run out of things to say and are stunned; pointing out the female anchor's stroking of the bottle, which is a subconscious sign of sexual arousal).

The short-haired female anchor becomes flustered, excited and aroused because she isn't used to being so dominated in a non-hostile way by an otherwise attractive man on her own turf (she probably isn't used to seeing that male anchor be so deftly socially outmaneuvered either - watching two men fight and one dominate another can be very exciting for women). My bet would be that the long-haired, younger female anchor is excited as well, but we don't hear much from her so there's not much to go off of here. The way she jumps to Brand's defense against the attacking male anchor by throwing herself in the way ("Do you find my accent confusing?") is a very knee-jerk, immediate response and tells you reams about whose side she's on emotionally, though.

Thanks for reminding me about this clip. I've been meaning to write a post on going meta, and this interview with Brand is a perfect example of this.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

which women are in transactional mindset?


Hi Chase,

reading your article, I realize I lost some women because they were probably in transactional mindset. I felt strange because it was like - the more rapport we had, the more she rebeled. One even got into argument with me. I rejected her then, but now I run through it... what if she was very attracted and I just did not get it?

Please how do I recognize that the woman is in transactional mindset? How should I change interaction with her?

Thanks, David

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