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One of the pieces I promised sometime back was a write-up on identities, and the role these play in your social interactions, seductions, dating, and relationships.
Identity is a huge, important topic with vast implications for how you move through society, but it isn't one that's much talked about because it's difficult to conceptualize, and more difficult still to nail down.
Nevertheless, having a grasp of what your identity is today, and what you'd like it to be tomorrow, helps shine a little more light on the direction you're headed in socially, and being aware of the different gradations of identity allows you to accurately pinpoint where you might be going right with a given identity, and where you may be going wrong.
So, join me on this journey through the looking glass, and let's examine the sometimes-strange and always interesting topic of your social identity.
Comments
Jealousy and a girl is resisting.
Hi Chase,
I have a question regarding jealousy and asian women.
There is a chinese girl in my graduate degree program who I could tell had some interest in me at first. I cut off contact and asked her out a month later because I was legitimately busy.
She at first had some hesitation, but agreed enthusiastically. After the date, I didnt follow up with her till 4 days later because she was extremely busy with exams.
After I asked her out for dinner,
she replied about 24 hours later:
"Sorry I dont think I have time this week. Thanks for asking me ^-^"
I currently have been able to get a lot of girls attracted to me and have been dating around. I believe the problem here isn't my level of attractiveness but rather either autorejection, loss of interest in me, or her just playing games.
Would it be a good idea to wait until Monday to ask her out again?
Also, she and others usually go to weekly dinners which I dont attend (to not get friendzoned).
I have an extremely attractive friend who I have built sexual tension with, would it be a good idea to bring my friend there or would it cause her to autoreject (if she hasnt already?) Thanks Chase!
That One Girl
Anon-
Based on the number of comments I'm seeing from you on this girl, and the fact that things don't seem to be going anywhere (and she doesn't seem all that interested), I'd say the best article to recommend for this situation is this one: "I Don’t Chase 'Em, I Replace 'Em."
Chase
What makes a woman (or people
What makes a woman (or people in general) leave someone for someone else? If a woman in a relationship with a strong, fun man meets a man who is strong, fun AND sexy, successful, funny will she leave the former for the latter? Which traits are best and how can we apply this information to ourselves?
Women Leaving
Anon-
If in a sexual relationship already, see these articles for perspective:
... if not though, and if things had been moving steadily toward the two of you getting together, then suddenly fell apart, it's almost always these:
Chase
@ Jealousy and a girl is resisting.
Coming from a Chinese girl herself, DO NOT invite that attractive friend of yours. That's suicide. The Chinese culture is very different from Western. Reliability, Intelligence and Consistency are viewed much higher than physical attractiveness, sexual tension or game playing. Playing those game may land you girls from predominantly western cultures, but not Asian ones. If you showed you are interested, I guarantee she is silently observing your behaviors. If you do invite the friend or come across as anything less than sincere (in flirtatiousness, behaviors, or even an image of a player), I guarantee she will cut you off and move to safer and more reliable (perceived) pastures.
Nice in theory, but...
Sadly, there are too many women who are open in their hostility to guys, enjoy destroying guys' confidence for the fun of it, and wear their so-called "bitch shield" like a badge of honor. If that's not bad enough, they DARE you if you approach, and MOCK you if you don't. So, what's a guy to do?
Bitter Women
Mickey-
First question I'd have is, is this based on extensive field experience (e.g., you've approached, say, 200+ girls in the past year or so)?
If so, your vibe is almost certainly very off, and you're striking women as creepy (just another way of saying "that's a guy I don't want anything with but who wants something with me and can't take a hint"). That's very correctible, but you have to spend time perfecting your fundamentals (i.e., passive attractiveness) and bettering your social calibration (i.e., being able to read the signals women are sending you). These articles are probably some of the best to start with for that:
If, alternately, you're not that experienced yet, but you've picked up some opinions off the news or the Internet (as can happen), I'd rather suggest this article to put what those sources might be saying in perspective:
Chase
Can't say I agree
Admittedly, I probably haven't approached 200 women in the last 20 years. Frankly, there are too many women who are unapproachable, believe that guys bring nothing to the table in any relationship, and would rather dive headlong into a pool of acid before believing anything positive about any guy.
In addition, when one is hit with the "men suck/men are dogs" mentality every freakin' day, you'll have to forgive me when I say that I'm a little hard pressed to believe the myth that there's someone for everyone.
I also admit that my confidence went out the door years ago, and pick-up success hasn't come close enough to me to laugh at me. Unfortunately, once one's confidence is shot, all the feel good "rah-rah" speeches in the world will never bring it back.
Welcome to MY world, friend. Sorry, but I just don't believe.
Mental Models
Mickey-
Well, the point of this site isn't to "teach the unteachable", so to speak - the basis of this site is, "Here's some stuff, go test it out, and see if it works for you," but when the attitude is, "I won't test it out, because I know it won't work!" there's really not much left to say. The stuff here's more for the people who come in saying, "I want to learn; tell me what to do, and I'll go do it until it works or I find a better way."
That said, I would point out that if you're not meeting women, then you're either getting your ideas about "how women are" from an insular group of man-hating women you're around on your day-to-day life (in which case, it's probably time to change jobs or social circles), or you're spending way too much time reading sites like Jezebel.com... which, I can assure you, those women in real life are nothing like their fierce online personas. I've had my fair share of girlfriends who had little time for Internet comments, but if they were on them probably would look as "man-hating" as anyone else... but in real life, bowed as quick as any other man or woman to the man with the highest level of dominance in the room.
They're paper tigers.
Anyway, as a guy who has, at times, approached 200 women in a week, in most major American cities and a number of cities in Europe and Asia, I can tell you from repeated, frequent first-hand experience that at least in those three regions, most women are every bit as feminine and submissive as you could want once you have your fundamentals handled. Though I will grant you that they didn't always seem that way when I was still starting out and *I* was not the most attractive option out there... your perspective on things changes mightily as the way others treat you does - but THAT doesn't change until you give them a reason to treat you differently.
If you're in want / need of a kick in the tail: "How Victim Mentality Can Stifle Your Life – and Luck with Women."
Chase
A different perspective
Chase:
I'm not asking you to teach the unteachable. I'm just pointing out that not all of us have had the same amount of success, or luck, or whatever. I applaud your success, and all others who've enjoyed a successful run. However, for every team who wins the World Series, like this year's Boston Red Sox, there is another team that finishes dead last, like this year's 112 loss Houston Astros. Similarly, for every guy who his successful at approaching/having a relationship/getting laid, there is a guy who doesn't get out of the dugout, let alone get to first base.
Again, that's the reality. So, I live with it. I'm off to find a prostitute now (LOL).
P.S. I never heard of jezebel.com until now.
Female Identities, Charity, and Helping Fearful Friends
Hey Chase very practical and useful article as usual. It was relatively easy to identify my two identities (athlete and social butterfly) as I always knew what I was just didn't know all of the strengths/weaknesses in terms of attractiveness to the opposite sex. I have three questions. First, are female identities pretty much similar to male identities? An in depth article on female identities like this one would be interesting (even though I'm sure you touched on some female identities already). I also remember reading a while back that you don't support charities, why not? Last, but not least, how do you help your friends get girls? Two of my close friends are genuine good guys but just afraid to do things like cold approach? We're in college so there is no shortage of women and they see me approach and get girls but they just won't approach! They claim they want a girlfriend and I would love to see them have an amazing girl but how can I help them achieve success?
Re: Female Identities, Charity, and Helping Fearful Friends
Bolt-
Yes, female identities are more or less different shades of these, although I'd say you find more women on average sticking to the "regular girl" identity than men - breaking out of the "standard" identity sets is somewhat risky and can lead to one becoming a social outcast if not done properly, and girls tend to have more at stake (their reputations - not normally as large a concern for men) and thus tend to take less risk.
My thoughts on charities I shared in this comment: "Streamlining Discovery & Donating to Charity."
As for helping friends get girls - well, you'll spend some frustrating time and energy trying to help these guys, but you'll eventually come to the realization that if they really want it, they'll shut up on talking / complaining about it and will either just ask you to tell them what to do, or they'll go figure it out themselves. Otherwise, you stop bugging them about it and let them be, because no amount of pushing will change them when they don't want to change. It'd be sort of like one of your pals trying to figure out how to get you to put on a lot more muscle, or take up the flute - even if you told him you'd sure like to have another 20 lbs of muscle or be amazing at flute, if you aren't motivated to do the work to get those things, it just ain't going to happen.
Chase
I have questions on the quiz article
Hey chase I left some questions on the diagnostic quiz article, guess I was too late since you're answering on here, but could you please answer those for me? Thank you.
Questions
Wolf-
I just checked it out, and there are about 90,000 questions on there... can you sum those up into three short questions or so (or, alternately, jump on the forum or snag an email or phone coaching package)?
Chase
Hey Chase, Really glad to
Hey Chase,
Really glad to read this article, it's something I've asked people about before.
Personally I identify strongly with 2 of those Identities but mix in stereotypes and it becomes a complex matrix :)
The article confirmed a lot of things I've been thinking about but I still struggle with the concept of actually imposing a certain identity of myself on others. What I mean by that is the following:
- In my day job, I do have a certain Identity. I guess it falls in line with the Businessman you outlined. Or at least similar. That's what I am known as, seen as, viewed as.
- However, outside of the dayjob, nobody would ever suspect me to be the above. Once I leave the office I have other interests/priorities and without basically ramming it down their throat, people view me more on a stereotype due to my nationality.
The reason it bothers me is this... In a lot of stuff I'm a high achiever. Not in a braggy way, but I work hard at what I do and am very professional about how I work and conduct myself and my life.
On the other hand, I feel like it's a constant uphill battle to portray that identity. Someone meeting me for the first time will often quip at my accent and immediately downgrade me in their ranks until... as you mentioned... I literally am chipping away at it before they start to realize "Hey, this guy really isn't portraying that stereotype of when I first met him, he's quite different to that"... and it's something I've even had people I've met SAY to me in recent months. The hard part though... is having to constantly chip away at people... I'd much rather better convey my personality right off the bat than be stereotypes and then working my way back.
Identity Conveyance
Estate-
Indeed... that's something that's very frustrating until you crack that nut. Identity conveyance is actually a skill in its own right, because what you're trying to do is quickly and clearly differentiate yourself from all the vanilla-flavored masses in ways that are not boastful, overly obvious, or tryhard.
What you do with your fundamentals is a big part of it - I've had a number of friends good with women who wore their hair very long, because shoulder-length hair is an instant signifier of "rebel" or "artist", and polarizes women right away (some women hate it, other women love it). Things like peacocking fall in this category - the clothing and accessories you have on help people quickly put you in a box. Other things like your speaking voice, facial expressions, and body type also do this - e.g., put on a good set of muscles and you're probably a tough or an athlete; be fairly but not overly muscular, and you're likely a rebel. Be very skinny, and you're an artist or an intellectual; get a little husky, and you're probably a regular guy, or maybe a businessman (though that latter can also be trim, and occasionally quite fit, too).
Conversation is another big part of it... if you want to be seen as an artist, you speak softly and dreamily; a businessman, you speak loud, direct, and to-the-point; an athlete you joke around in loud and a little-too-rough ways; a rebel, and you talk about how off-the-mark most people are in the way they view and interact with the world.
This is, incidentally, one of the things that makes switching between multiple different identities in different parts of your day challenging if you want those identities to be strong identities; while you can switch some aspects of an identity, it's much harder to completely shift your nonverbals and communication style, and these will follow you around. When you're trying to optimize these for two or more primary identities, you'll tend to drive toward the middle road, which ends up making you come across more as a middle-road guy everywhere you go until people get to know you better and see evidence otherwise.
Chase
Some interesting stuff...
I was reading thru Karen Owen's "fuck list" just for kicks and laughs the other day, and there were a few illuminating bits of info. I don't know if the events in question actually occurred, but assuming they did, I think it's worthwhile to have a few takeaways as proof of what women really want.
First, was that she found multiple men attractive... so guys should always remember that women don't necessarily have eyes for just one guy alone... and even if she is a relationship with you, doesn't mean some other man's presence won't strongly impact her. Which is why you guys on here harp about having your male look down tight...having girls already excited to meet you without you even saying a word...
Second, since this girl was just enjoying herself (Present-hedonistic time orientation) imagine how quickly her attraction would fade with a man who failed to be dominant and sexy and Fast!! Imagine a man who thought (incorrectly) that the way into her pants was to try and get a relationship with her first? Since she had all those experiences with all those guys, and since she was quite self-aware, she'd get bored fast with a male who didn't excite her sensual side! Look how she responded to the aggressiveness of some of the guys (who's male identities are athletes, in tune with this article). Some of those guys were bold and sexy right away with her, with a devil may care attitude. Notice she didn't shoot them dead or get upset with them or left bc of their aggressiveness. So I think regular guys just need to understand that it's far far far easier with women by just being bold (but respectful enough) and effortlessly having a good time. Practice being bold all the time!! Women seem prefer it!! The less sensitized to failure you are...the easier a time you will have to just do what you want. No one is going to kill you (usually) for being bold with a woman. For me I'm working on having this kind of attitude by default. Some days I exude it, other days I need to warm up into it. But what throws me a curveball sometimes is when a woman isn't yet warm to me... and when am bold and sexy with her I can see a look in her eyes and that she isn't offended, but she's too shy or quiet to really respond. (this happens to me primarily during day game when they have no liquid inhibition reducers in their systems). Tension builds and I usually just get bored and leave...even tho i know I shouldn't and I should persist... I need to work on this.
Third, was how she responded to being sexually dominated in an aggressive manner by subject #9 (she claims she didn't know that she liked the domination before it happened...but after it did, she LOVED IT and ranked Mr. 9 aggressive performance a 12/10). Although some guys think girls don't like that kind of stuff, there's a reason why 50 shades of Gray, et al, has done so well with the fairer sex. It pays to just do what the fuck you want with these women... while keeping their needs in mind of course.
Fourth, was how she responded to the first interaction with subject #12. This guy girlfriended her by treating her warmly, giving her intense (sexy) eye contact, made her feel alive and like a woman...and what resulted? She ranked his first performance at the top of the scale.
Fifth, was her response to men's penis size. Usually when asked, women say (lie??) that it doesn't matter, or that as long as a man knows how to use it he's fine. But some girls either don't know or won't admit (esp. when other people are potentially judging their reputations) what their real sexual sides are or what they REALLY like. They hide!! It took me a while to get used to this lack of sexual confidence...since girls where I am from tend to be a bit more bold earlier in the interaction. But the job of the seducer is to adapt and already know what women want, and to have the talent to show them what is possible.
It was illuminating to see how much this chick learned about her likes/dislikes based off of the interactions with the various "subjects." She didn't know what was possible or how her emotions would respond to them until she experienced various things. So it pays for guys to fear being sexually boring and moving slow more than they fear rejection or fear a woman walking away from sexiness. Because as this Owen chick has shown, if a woman has dealt with a couple of aggressive outlier males in her past... if you are "lesser" of a man than them, chances are she won't feel the same feelings with you that she did with them. And with a lukewarm, experienced, self-aware, present-hedonistic chick (who has male options in her fone) on your hands, she will likely go incognito on you without warning or explanation.
Now clearly not all women behave this way, but all women have feelings, and will more likely than not enjoy being stimulated and will not want the stimulation to stop (provided the man remains respectful enough).
Karen Owen
These are some great takeaways, Breeze. There's a LOT of stuff here that's going to strike many (a majority of?) men as surprising, groundbreaking, or epiphany-inducing (or, perhaps, dissonance-producing).
Many of these are really things that would apply equally well to men, too, and are in fact just human traits - being attracted to multiple different people at once, not wanting people for roles whose expectations don't match those roles and are going to fail to satisfy one's needs in those roles, thinking you know exactly what you want until you realize there's something you really want that you had no idea you wanted until you experience it, valuing connections above all, and having everything more or less matter to -some- extent, even if in polite society you'd claim otherwise.
One of the funniest things to realize in seduction as you start getting good is that understanding women really boils down to understanding that they're exactly like you, except with their preferences leaning in slightly different directions and their expressions and behaviors squeezed somewhat by society. They seem like the most alien creatures in the world when you're a beginner, but when you're good, it's just, "Ah - they're just like me."
Chase
Female identities
Hello Chase,
I was curious, but are there female specific identities that would mesh with the particular identities on this list better than with others? Can some of these identities also be female identities?
Thanks
What about the Nerd
What about the Nerd stereotype? The type that women don't find particularly attractive at all and if you're lucky they might befriend you but that's about it?
Love these kinds of
Love these kinds of posts.
I'm a combo of intellectual and businessman, but I have yet to fully allow my natural strengths to come out and work for me
Portraying Secondary Identities
I first want express my gratitude for this site, it has helped me through a lot of things and has taught me much.
So my first identity is definitely the intellectual. I have more or less always been this way, and it is more pronounced now that I am entering graduate study (with me blowing through my undergraduate and most people taking more than four years to get a bachelors, I am probably at least five years younger than most graduate students here).
I feel that the secondary identity is that of the rebel, as I have always been a non-conformist and questioned the status quo. The problem is that I feel people don't see this side of me unless they are somewhat close to me. So I guess my question is how do I portray my secondary identity of the rebel to people I don't know without it being perceived as "fake?" As in how do I help to integrate it into my primary persona and not have it seem as if I am two different people?
Thanks again,
JD
dissociative identity disorder
Hey guys at GC i am actually good at picking up, but i have one mayor problem that im not really sure how im gonna get past it. you see i was diagnosed with Borderline personality disorder, and i have this problem where everyday at some stage of the day i feel like im not me anymore, like if someone just threw a stun grenade at me and i dissociate from reality... sometimes i even start fearing the worst might happen and i get all edgy and shit.. and sometimes i feel like if i was gonna LOSE my identity and somehow become someone im not, sometimes i feel like im turing gay.. and i get scared as fuck, my arms literally start to shake.. and then i get all anxious and shit like if i was having approach anxiety.. you see im a very outgoing guy, and i can comfortably apporach ANY women, ill admit sometimes i do feel approach anxiety but mostly when im VERY VERY attracted to the women im about to approach... more like exitement id say,, well anyway the point is that i have this identity problem where im not sure who i am or what i stand for.. and sometimes it attacks me in the middle of an interaction with a woman and it sucks coz like i can tell shes picking up on sumting wierd thats happening so i want to have a solid personality with only on identity and feel normal everyday... i think i might be traumatized by something i cant really remember or make it out any way id love to hear from you guys.
Cheers.
Victor Dan.
Stuff you may want to consider
Hey Chase, I see some conflicting material in this article, maybe even on this website as a whole. You start out with the assumption that reality can be viewed as something outside of yourself. The same is assumed in every science, but because of the openmindedness of your research (along with the subjects' philosophical importance). You begin to touch evidence conflicting with this assumption. For instance, it's just a matter of perspective for saying: "People's perception of reality influences reality" instead of "people, when they felt like they were perceived in a certain way, acted accordingly". I am certain you must have thought about the possibility and implications of abandoning the scientific dualistic (logical) perception of reality. If you did, what I'm going to say won't be a surprise:
Why would you instill a logical mindset into every reader, if this is the thing that influences reality, limits reality (=limits the person). More specific for this article: Aren't you afraid that by describing these 9 types of man you restrict reality (by restricting your own) to produce only 9 types of man?
You could say that these 9 types of man were already existant in the world, but this statement can't be made without assuming the same dualistic view of the world.
You always talk about evolving your belief system and that's why I typed this reply. I'm still figuring it out myself (tried not to come over as if I think I know it all).
The tough guy
Are there really women who don't have a thing for the tough guy? If he's more masculine, aggressive, and dominant then he's naturally more attractive to women.
Congruence with the steryotipe
Hey Chase!First of all a its a pleasure reading your articles so thanks for all this info..I have a very rebel self image (and i tend to attract lots of girls just by it)but the thing is that i not allways put the "behaivour congruence"( like not beign a hardcore crazy cool motherfucker all the time) and some woman just lose that initial spark...What can i do about it? Here are some pictures of me today ( you helped me archieve it ?)
https://ibb.co/mFeJtv
https://ibb.co/cL6gDv
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