The 4 Stages of Every Friends with Benefits Relationship


In Colt's piece on female intrasex competition, several commenters asked about the problem of getting a girl into a casual relationship, and keeping her there. To quote Sam, one of the commenters there:

Very few of them were ok with a strict lover arrangement. All others wanted more than that and whenever I had the nerve to show or say to them that I was not into more than a lover arrangement I simply lost the girl either because she would cut me off or because I would not further pursue her.

The problem, of course, is that "friends with benefits" is not an end goal for most women. That is to say, a casual sexual relationship - where you are a lover and nothing more - just ain't enough.

friend with benefits relationship

You can maintain casual relationships for varying lengths of time, depending on a number of factors, mainly having to do with the stage in her life a girl is at, and your value relative to hers in the relationship. We'll talk more about both of these below.

But the main gist of this article will focus on the four (4) stages that every friends with benefits relationship must follow:

  1. The Fun Stage
  2. The Relaxed Stage
  3. The Restless Stage
  4. The Decision Stage

... and the varying details on each.


friend with benefits relationship

Below follows quick primer on what the four different stages of every friend with benefits relationship entails, from fun to relaxed to restless to decision.

Today, we're starting with the what, and wrapping up after with the why.

Here's stage #1.


Friends with Benefits Stage #1: Fun

The fun stage is the first initial foray into the new relationship you take with a girl. You've gotten her into bed, the two of you have slept together, and now you're seeing each other, maybe on a booty call basis, or maybe on a more rapidly gelling regular schedule.

Either way, the fun stage of a friends with benefits relationship is defined by the uncertainty of this new relationship, and the excitement of it.

friend with benefits relationship

The uncertainty stems from these questions:

  • How far will this relationship go?
  • Might it transform into a passionate romance?
  • Is the sex going to get better and better?
  • Will you meet one another's friends?
  • How long will this last?

... and the excitement is related to the high uncertainty / unpredictability levels coupled with exploratory sex with a new partner. Even if all you're doing is missionary, it's still at least somewhat exploratory, because she isn't used to you (and sex with you), and you aren't yet used to her (and sex with her).

During the fun stage, some girls will fish around to see if they can finagle you into more committed relationships; some will pelt you with questions like, "What are we?" and, "Are you seeing other girls?" and, "Where do you see this going?" Meanwhile, others (usually a smaller minority of others, unless you're in, say, a particularly liberal social circle or university setting) will be totally fine with the setup - they've done this a hundred times before, it'll seem like. They know the drill.

Even though there's not much pressure aside from (sometimes) the girl trying to steer you toward something more serious, the fun stage is nevertheless an important stage for the relationship - because this is the stage where you're setting the expectations and the precedent that will impact the course of the remainder of your time as friends with benefits with one another. Do a bad job here, and the arrangement can be in for a bumpy road - or end prematurely.

Normal lifespan for this stage: about 3 weeks.


Friends with Benefits Stage #2: Relaxed

The relaxed stage is when everything seems perfect. The drama (and much of the excitement) of the fun stage has passed, and you and your friend with benefits have fallen into a routine - you know what the deal is with her, she knows the deal with you, your expectations are more or less in line with one another's, and you're both having a great (or, at least, good enough) time together.

The relaxed stage is the stage that every man wishes his friend with benefits relationships could just stay in forever. If only he could cryogenically freeze them in the relaxed stage, or give these relationships some kind of drink from the fountain of relationship youth... things would just be perfect.

friend with benefits relationship

During the relaxed stage, your friend with benefits comes over to visit, the two of you chat for a little bit, and then you have sex.

If you're running things properly, she maybe brings some food with her when she comes to visit, and she leaves shortly after sex, provided you want her to leave.

You really, honestly treat her like just a friend of yours... whom you sleep with.

And best of all, she's totally, unequivocally FINE with it, and COOL about it.

She never causes drama.

She's always happy to see you.

She comes over and provides sex whenever you want.

Everything is just so damn peaceful and relaxed.

Why can't women be this way all the time?

The unfortunate thing for the man here is that a relationship like this perfectly meets the needs of most men out there... but imperfectly meets the needs of their female companions.

So, while she does enjoy it for a while, a woman's emotions are things of majestic impermanence; and, like the sea, at some point the tides will change, and what were calm waters before become first turbulent, then tempestuous.

Normal lifespan for this stage: about 2 months.


Friends with Benefits Stage #3: Restless

The restless stage is the first sign you start getting that your nirvana of romantic tranquility and unlimited sexual access to this nubile belle, free of concession or commitment on your part, is not much longer to last.

During the restless stage, you begin to pick up on a mood shift in your friend with benefits.

friend with benefits relationship

This sometimes starts out with her being sweeter than usual, even more accommodating, and even nicer. You wonder what's up. What's up is that she's following the "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" line of reasoning - you haven't proposed a more serious relationship with the current relationship setup so far, but maybe even she makes herself into an even better catch, you'll realize what a great girlfriend she'd make and will put her in that role instead of just keeping her as a friend with benefits.

While the sweetness boost doesn't always happen, the fall off that follows it (assuming it doesn't result in proclamations of love) does. When this occurs, she becomes less calm, less accommodating, and less available than she previously was. She begins to slowly but surely withdraw from the relationship... but when you ask her if everything's still fine, she tells you it is (or, if she's bold, tells you she just needs something "more serious than this" or "needs to know this is going somewhere").

The problem here is women's inherently restless nature. While a man will look for a relationship setup that makes him happy, find it, enjoy it, and worry about it no more, a woman will look for a relationship setup that makes her happy, find it, enjoy it for a while, and then want something completely different (and usually, something more).

Women are designed, biologically, to always seek more from their mates:

  • More attention
  • More comfort
  • More security
  • More passion
  • More involvement
  • More conversation
  • More adventure

... more everything.

And a friends with benefits relationship, stable, minimal, unchanging thing that it is, is the absolute antithesis of this. A friends with benefits relationship is the ultimate "man-friendly relationship." It's designed to give as many of the benefits of a sexual relationship (sex, companionship) with as few of the drawbacks (drama, time commitments, culling of freedoms) of a committed romantic relationship as possible.

In other words, friend with benefits relationships take what most men like about relationships, and throw out what they like least, and say to women, "This is the kind of relationship we'll have."

Why do women agree to this? We'll discuss that more below. For now, the main point to keep in mind though is this: FWB is ideal for you... it is NOT ideal for her.

And because of that, while it may be your dream to keep her in an eternal friend with benefits relationship that never changes, never becomes more involved, and never falls apart, it simply isn't a dream that's going to be realized with 99.95% of the female population out there.

Normal lifespan for this stage: about 1 to 3 weeks.


Friends with Benefits Stage #4: Decision

Ah, decision time. Right when you were thinking how great it is to be in this nice, calm, pressure-free relationship. Now, suddenly, you're being asked to decide - or compelled to.

During the decision stage, a woman is talking herself out of a friends with benefits relationship - and giving you a "last shot" to realize that she's the one for you, and hold onto her.

friend with benefits relationship

She can't just jump ship, because by this point she's pretty invested; she needs to gradually wean herself off of the relationship, and get far enough away from it that she can examine it with a clear head from a more objective point of view (it feels like).

Often during this stage, you'll hear things like:

  • "I don't know if I can keep doing this if it isn't going anywhere"
  • "I need to start looking for someone more serious than you"
  • "This is great, but I'm starting to realize I need more than a casual relationship"

These are her ways of prompting you to propose a solution - something along the lines of, "Then be my girlfriend."

Of course, if you're legitimately having a friends with benefits relationship (and not just following the template we discussed in "How to Start a Relationship with a New Girlfriend" to ultimately end up with her as a girlfriend), you don't want her as your girlfriend - if you did, you'd have her as a girlfriend, not a friend with benefits.

The decision stage is when you do one of three things:

  1. Let her go calmly and peacefully, with understanding and without protest
  2. Struggle to hold onto her without giving in, to keep things what they were
  3. Capitulate to her need for a more committed relationship and give her one

#s 1 and 3 are the "solutions"... #2 only delays the inevitable and gives you a little more time to figure out what you're going to do, but is not in and of itself a solution.

Ultimately, she's reached a point where she's unhappy - and you've either got to give her what she wants, or let her go.

Normal lifespan for this stage: anywhere from 1 hour to 1 week.


friend with benefits relationship

Wouldn't it just be swell if friends with benefits just stayed in the fun or relaxed stages forever?

Asking this is silly though - and it betrays a certain naïveté about what women really want out of relationships.

True, women want to be with the strong, dominant, alpha male - but they don't want to be in relationship limbo with him forever... any more than even the nicest of nice guys wants to hang out in the friend zone for all eternity.

And, women aren't nice guys. Even the homeliest of them has options. They almost never stick around in unfavorable situations too long once they realize things aren't going the direction they want and need them to.

But if a woman isn't necessarily happy with a friends with benefits relationship, why's she even enter into one in the first place?


Reason #1: She Wants It... For Now

Some of the women who enter into friend with benefits relationships do so because they are free spirits, and they legitimately want a casual sexual relationship at the time they enter into it (and nothing more than that, either).

These are genuinely:

These are the women you'll have the longest friend with benefit lifespans with, because, at least at the outset, your goals and their goals are aligned.

These girls just want to have fun... and if you're engaging in FWB, most likely so do you.

Of course, time changes everything, and as she invests more and more of her time in you, she's usually going to come to want something serious with you... or, she may decide that she definitely does not want something serious with you, but she almost certainly does with someone - which means she's going to be looking for a boyfriend candidate, even while keeping you around to satisfy her baser needs.

Either way, don't be surprised when she either begins acting a lot warmer, then a lot cooler, and confesses that she wants something serious with you now or this isn't going to work... or she announces that she's seeing someone now, and won't be able to keep seeing you in this capacity, but she really hopes you'll stay friends.


Reason #2: It's Her Strategy

The other reason women enter into FWB relationships is because this is simply their strategy for roping a man in.

It may be that this is her standard strategy, and she's just always friends with benefits with men first before gradually working her way into a relationship... or, it may be that you just seem too high value and too hard to get for her to feel confident about getting you into a relationship any other way.

If it's her standard strategy, that usually means self-esteem issues for her, and low confidence levels - confident women have little trouble making most men pledge commitment to them fairly early on.

If it's a strategy she's running unique to you though, and you are a powerful, dominant fellow who finds that most women resort to bending the rules for him because that's the only way they can get him, well, that's kind of just part and parcel with dating you, and you realize by now that it reflects nothing on her ego and everything on the practical realities of dating a guy like you, and the value imbalances this includes.

At some point though, if the friend with benefits relationship still hasn't turned into a real relationship, she's going to start feeling like her strategy is not working, get upset, and burn out of the relationship.

In this case, the reason the casual relationship ends is because the casual relationship was never her desired outcome in the first place... it was, rather, just a means to an end.

And if she starts feeling like that end is out of reach, she then starts feeling like it's time to throw the towel in and try again with someone new.


Where Value Differentials Come Into Play

Your value (or, your desirability) compared to hers determines the nature of the friend with benefits relationship, as follows:

  • If you're of roughly equal or lower mate value, she'll enter into a friend with benefits relationship with you to have her sexual needs met while she waits for someone better to come along

  • If you're of slightly higher mate value, she'll enter into a friend with benefits relationship with you if you insist, but she won't stick around in it long if it isn't expressly what she wants - you're not high value enough that she's going to waste much time waiting for you to give her a serious relationship

  • If you're of significantly higher mate value than she is, she'll enter into a friends with benefits relationship with you and just tough it out for a while, because she knows you're out of her league, gets an ego / status boost from being with a guy like you in any capacity, and is willing to stick it out longer in hopes that you become comfortable with her / attached to her / let your other options dry up enough that you kind of fall into or settle into a relationship with her

For this reason, the longest lasting friend with benefits relationships you'll have are the ones with women who's leagues you're clearly out of. This includes women who are:

  • Much less attractive than you are

  • Of much lower social status than you are

  • Significantly less socially skilled than you are

Note that I didn't include "much poorer than you are"... because even if you're a multimillionaire and have a casual relationship with a woman who's destitute, if you're not also attractive and dominant, or otherwise providing some other kind of value (e.g., paying for lots of things for her) that more or less renders what you have with her not a pure friends with benefits relationship, resource differences do not much move the line on friend with benefits relationship longevity.

Rather, it's all about how you stack up with her. If you outclass her in sexual market value, you can pull off longer-running friend with benefits relationships.

That doesn't mean you have to be Brad Pitt and she has to be Quasimodo. She could be beautiful but shy, while you're so dominant and powerful compared to her that you're leagues above her.

An example of one of the more extreme value disparities I've seen: a very handsome natural friend of mine mostly preferred to sleep with and date chubby and/or ugly girls. His explanation for why he chose them, when he could and did get far prettier girls too, was that attractive women are "too high maintenance", and indeed, his multiple ongoing relationships with homely women lasted on average 6 to 9 months - a healthy bit more than the more typical 2 to 4 months of a standard friend with benefits relationship.

Maintaining a constant number of friend with benefits relationships means keeping your pipeline full - just as Ricardus talks about in "How to Date Multiple Women (with Zero Drama)." Unless you're dating down, like that friend of mine did, you're going to have high turnover rates among your friends with benefits - it just isn't a relationship most women remain in for any lengthy period of time.

Maybe think of an FWB relationship as test driving a new (or used; as you like it) car - sure, there might be a couple salesmen out there who are super cool and will hang out in the passenger seat and let you drive the car wherever you want to take it; and, there are salesmen out there who are desperate to sell you that car, and are going to be a lot more lenient about how many miles they let you put on it and how long they let you drive it for; but most salesmen just aren't going to let you drive the damn thing to work, park it there all day, and then drive it to the happy hour after work to go get sloshed with the boys.

You've got a limited amount of time to test drive - and once that time is up, you've either to got to buy, or hand the keys back over and get out of the car... because the free ride is over.


Don't be Alarmed: Friends with Benefits Do That

So, don't beat yourself up about your friends with benefits quitting the relationship after a few months; that happens.

If it's happening to you a lot faster than a few months, and regularly, that's probably a sign you're setting the wrong expectations with women (i.e., they think you're going to be a boyfriend to them), or you need to do a much better job screening out girls who are looking for Prince Charming.

It can also be that you need to up your value as a lover enough that women want you in that capacity... if you're not yet a sexy enough man, women may sleep with you to nab you as a boyfriend, but may not be all that interested in you as a lover. Hank with the six-pack abs still does a better job than you in that department. When this is the case, the solution is the same as for getting women in the first place: get back to work on your fundamentals, and work harder to turn yourself into the kind of man women want to have friend with benefits relationships with.

friend with benefits relationship

Most of the time, what men end up getting distressed about is just the normal progression of FWB relationships: these just aren't relationships that last. That's because they don't serve women's needs over the long term; while they may make a girl happy in the here and now, over time, every girl gets restless, and every girl needs more.

When addressing your casual relationship situation, keep the four stages in mind:

  1. The Fun Stage
  2. The Relaxed Stage
  3. The Restless Stage
  4. The Decision Stage

... so you won't be surprised, and enjoy them, anticipate them, and don't sweat them, and always remember to keep the pipeline full, and you won't worry when girls announce they need something more and can't do this anymore... because you'll know, that's kind of just how it goes.

Always,
Chase

Related Articles from GirlsChase.com

Comments

340Breeze's picture

Thought's on FWB's


Happy new year man! Great article as usual.

Even before I knew what I was doing with women, when I was still nervous around them, I always kept them at arm’s length, I never fully committed, I always wanted more, I never could satisfy with just one woman. Maybe something was missing inside of me that no woman could ever fulfill. Unfair to them now that I think back on it, but I sought FWB's by default. Sometimes I didn't even want FWB status at all; I just purely wanted the benefits without being friends at all, and I had the nerve to get mad at girls when they got mad at me for requesting this arrangement. Kind of ridiculous. I’ve changed. A little.

But thinking back on my early days with girls, the only time I ever felt like I SWOONED back then was when a rare girl came along, unexpectedly, that was gorgeous intelligent and extremely exciting. I said goodbye to my default FWB strategy and welcomed her as my first GF! But even back then I didn’t instantly jump on having a relationship with her; I guess I had an intuitive understanding to wait things out a little. But it's kind of interesting how that all played out because there were all those women that I met that I was relatively indifferent toward and didn't care one way or the other whether or not they wanted a relationship, because my mind was already made up not to have one. Then suddenly one appeared on the scene and she effortlessly caused my indifference to evaporate... without warning... and I suddenly felt feelings for a woman that I'd never felt before. I loved the enthusiasm.

But thinking about your article though, I have a few questions.

1) If some women (even the women perceived as rare and exciting) are used to having to go thru a FWB first, wouldn't they be suspicious regarding a man's attractiveness, preselection, and other female options, if the guy confesses his enthusiasm and adoration and commitment much too soon? Without her first having to experience the uncertainty of whether or not the new liaison will develop into something more, and her having to do some work (e.g. advertise how cool a gf she would make) to get what she wants? Guess it makes sense then to keep your composure, and even if a woman makes you SWOON try your hardest to remain non-plussed. Like it’s not really that big a deal. And put her to work if she wants to keep you, especially in case she's been a victim of FWB's before (meaning she's used to having to work for being someone's GF).

2) This leads to my next question. When it comes to a man sharing his enthusiasm with his new woman (especially one who effortlessly makes him SWOON), what's a good strategy? Use non-verbals to communicate warmth? Wait until she first shows signs of being enthusiastic, but not before? Like what’s a good way of letting girls know early on that you REALLY like them without them feeling like they’ve WON!? Or should you even bother in communicating how much you really like them, especially if you're getting all the sex you can stand? Why expend more effort? But it's kind of annoying worrying about holding enthusiasm inside for strategy’s sake, especially if you have no qualms in sharing how you feel. But at the same time it'd be sad that employing a losing strategy in the timing and presentation of your enthusiasm (that she effortlessly instills inside of you) causes her to want to puke. Why lose when you don't have to lose from bad presentation? Guess it just pays to try and see what works and what doesn't work, since each woman is different. But if you have any ideas, it'd be cool to see what you have to say.

3) And why do you think some attractive women are so high maintenance? Is it because they get so much male attention, that if they start to feel less special from being in a FWB for too long, resulting in an itch to move on to one of the other readily-available male options? Seems like your natural friend found a strategy to minimize his effort and maximize his results (when considering the commodity services that women provide).
Or are they high-maintenance in part due to their desire to compete with their friends/other women (aka 'the keep up with the Joneses effect'). So if a man wants nothing more than FWB (meaning his woman probably doesn't feel all that special), and this man isn't her 'secret lover,' and her friends/other women advertise to her how special they feel when around their "boyfriends," and these women ask her: "so is Johnny your boyfriend yet," wouldn't that also put pressure on her emotions to seek a relationship or move on?

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Chase Amante's picture

Cautiousness, Enthusiasm, and Women's Motivation in FWB

Author

Breeze-

Neat experiences here - nice to hear from a guy who jumped into it right from the beginning (it's a change of pace for me from reading the comments from guys who just want to know "how do I do this?").

Yes, women who've gone the FWB-to-LTR path before, or who've otherwise dated men who ramp things up fast without reservation, do tend to be more suspicious of men who plunge too quickly into things - they view them usually either as inexperienced and naïve or, worse (from the woman's point of view), emotionally capricious and intemperate, and liable to have their emotions flip again with them losing interest at a moment's notice. Guys who are very fast movers in relationships tend to be emotional men, and the relationship will often end as suddenly and explosively as it began. It's exciting the first time or two a girl experiences it, but she becomes cautious pretty fast; or, if she's been conditioned to expect she has to earn a relationship, she'll also be skeptical from Day 1 with a relationship fast-mover.

If you can legitimately gush with enthusiasm and make the praise genuine, this can be effective at winning over even a lot of very skeptical girls. Men with borderline personality disorder, for instance, do this effusively, and they're very charming for a great deal of women, because they come across like the perfect passionate romancer. I couldn't tell you exactly how to use this style, as it's different from what I'd recommend to most guys, except to say that among my friends who indulge in large doses of praise and enthusiasm, they seem to have a "dawning realization" at first ("Hmm… you're actually really good at [X]"), followed by gradually heaping increasing amounts of praise and enthusiasm on the other person. I'd caution you to be very careful with this though, as 1.) it conditions others to become dependent on your approval, which is going to make them needy and weak around you, 2.) people who've been around those who heap on praise and enthusiasm tend to be skeptical, because they know it doesn't last, and 3.) when the enthusiasm subsides (as it always does), the girl ends up feeling like something has been lost from the relationship, you don't care about her as much, and you'll start dealing with increasing amounts of problems from her.

As for women not wanting to stay in FWB, I don't think it's male attention so much as it is that the FWB relationship has fulfilled its role, and it's time to move on. If you imagine a world without contraceptives and what role friends-with-benefits would play in that context, it'd seem to largely be one where a woman offers a man sex to try and net him into a long-term relationship, OR she sleeps with a man because he's so legitimately high value compared to her, even if he won't provide for her. If it's for a man who will provide for her young, once she realizes she's not going to get that from him, it's time to move on and find a man she can get it from, before the clock runs out on her beauty, youth, and reproductive years. If it's for his genes, well, he's got a several month window to impregnate her while she locks down a nicer guy who can take care of her and keep her clothed and fed and protected, which, if you look at a lot of girls' patterns, there are a LOT of them that very quickly follow up FWB relationships with serious relationships with "nice guys"…. they seem to be following a strategy of "give the sexy guy a 3-month window to impregnate me, then pair up with a nice guy who won't question whether it's his child and who will provide for me." Of course, in today's world, we have contraceptives, but people still follow their patterns.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

if the guy knows that I like


if the guy knows that I like him, but proposes FWB instead because he doesn't want a relationship, does that mean he is trying to take advantage of the situation? He definitely seemed interested and genuine at first, and is very caring and helpful with work, because we are co workers. However, he doesn't flirt at all anymore through text messages, and doesn't text or call me to initiate any kind of communication besides work, if necessary. this is after FWB conversation, when I initially proposed let's just be friends. Why is that?

Anonymous's picture

Transactional Value in Seduction and Relationships


Have you ever touched on the transactional interplay between the various purposes that both men and women want from each other?

Let me explain what I mean. Based on this article, you imply that women tire of the FWB arrangement with men because those women have a purpose for some unknown male to fill. Women want things such as (More attention More comfort More security More passion More involvement More Conversation More adventure ... more everything). And when they realize they won’t get that they get what they want they get frustrated and they bail out.

But the only reason why some of them even entered into the FWB arrangement in the first place was in the hopes of getting their entire panoply of needs met to the “T”. Not necessarily meeting yours (conversation and sex). But women are the choosers.

So it seems like the whole reason why they embarked on the journey with you in the first place is for what they thought they could get…and when they realize that they’re not going to get as much as they feel entitled to getting, they protest and end the FWB arrangement and go find some other man that is willing and able to fulfill his end of what she thinks the transaction should be. If this is the truth, then this is another reason why men shouldn't necessarily feel all that special just for being born and existing and feeling entitled to having girls liking them!! Because as can be seen by your article, if you fail to give girls the transactional value they desire, then they usually bail out eventually. I guess this one more refutation to the statement that so many guys seem to make “but she should like me for me!”

jack's picture

All humans require value in


All humans require value in their relationships, no matter what those relationships are. Self-sacrifice is not a human ethics. The thing is that woman have pluralistic sexual strategies or short-term and long-term needs. Those needs are often met by different men, at least when women are in their 20s. FWB offers women the option of having their short-term sexual needs met; i.e. their "good genes" needs or the ability to have sex with a more dominant, more confident man with higher psychological strength. In essence the "alpha". Women will then get their long term commitment and comfort needs with less confident but more caring men; i.e. "betas".

But women can also use the FWB to try and lock down a man of high value. They can try to convert a short term lover into a long term boyfriend. Thus the FWB serves a multitude of uses for a woman. But in the end, as with all relationships, needs must be met. And FWB arrangements do not provide for a woman's long term need. Thus she must enter into another "transaction".

Chase Amante's picture

Transactional Value

Author

Great analysis by Jack in his response here.

The transactional nature of all relationships is a fascinating subject, though not one I believe I've gone into too in-depth on its own on the site. The most relevant articles might be the one on throwing people under the bus when necessity demands or convenience allows, and the one on value imbalances.

All relationships at the core can be boiled down to an exchange. When I discuss the different kinds of exchanges in this sense, I usually differentiate between pure transactional ("You give me this concrete thing, I give you that") vs. relationship-building ("I'll build my relationship up with you, in the hope/intention that you'll do likewise and we'll have a mutually beneficial relationship"). By this definition, I'd define a purely transactional exchange as I give you $50, and in exchange you help me set up my Internet; compared to relationship-building, which would be I give you $50, because you're my friend and you need a loan. The expectation of the second type of exchange is that by giving things to you and doing things for you, over time, we're going to have an increasingly strong relationship, and you'll begin returning value to me. If enough time goes by and I feel like my overtures are not being sufficiently reciprocated, though, I begin to believe that my relationship-building exchanges are not working, and grow disillusioned with the relationship.

Relationship-building exchanges are much harder to quantify and qualify because they take so many forms and lack a clear outcome - e.g., I can't say, "My relationship-building exchanges have been a success if [X] happens," because [X] may happen but not the way I want it to, or only after I've put in way more than [X] is really worth to me, and what not. It's still at the core a transactional exchange, but it's a messier transaction because it's less defined and relies more on a gut, intuitive sense.

In the case of the FWB relationship, after several months go by, the woman begins feeling intuitively that her relationship-building efforts are not being reciprocated, and begins to feel like she is wasting her time, and instead of feeling good about contributing to the relationship, she begins feeling bad. So, she starts withdrawing, and then she exits.

Chase

jack's picture

Chase, Awesome post. But


Chase,

Awesome post. But here's another suggestion. Could you write a post on the life cycle of mLTRs? They are the more complicated relationship arrangement; essentially an open girlfriend set-up. My guess is that you have a lot of experience with these.

Chase Amante's picture

Lifecycle of mLTRs

Author

Jack-

Sure can do - I'll add it to the list.

Chase

Danny's picture

YES!!! DO IT DO IT!! Chase (>3<)


Dear Chase,

It must be really AWESOME to read a post on how to have Multiple Long Term Relationship simultaneously! Or at least a Life Cycle Analysis on MLTRs would at least help us recognize how to start this interesting interaction with multiple high quality girls we have in our lives.

Look forward on this

--Danny

JS's picture

Is kissing without logistics always bad?


Hey Chase,

I'm a bit confused on what you think of kissing a girl when the logistics don't allow you to bed her right then and there. I'm mostly talking about social circle game but this has popped up in cold approaches as well. In this scenario, should I view going for the kiss as abiding by "move fast" or as a detrimental act that would release the tension and only serve to have me sorted as "potential boyfriend".
In https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-go-her-place-smoothly-even-if-you... , for instance, you said "haven't kissed her [...] or done anything else knuckleheaded like that". Did you mean having kissed her was knuckleheaded, or not having kiss her?

Finally, the main reason I'm asking is because I'm afraid I'm entering early boyfriend zone with this girl in my social circle who I made out with, wasn't able to bed on the same night due to awful logistics (can't sleep with her at my place), and now having a hard time beating her "long term boyfriend" cautiousness. Although I would definitely appreciate input on that specific case (I read the early boyfriend post, but am not sure how having repeatedly made out with her places me there), I mostly want to avoid this happening again. Was it a mistake to have first made out with her, rather than waiting for more promising logistics?
I really can't thank you enough for the positive change reading this site has given me. With women and in life. Stay safe and good luck in anything you decide to take on.

JS

Chase Amante's picture

Kissing in Public / Sans Logistics

Author

JS-

I normally recommend against kissing in public or outside of the place where you're going to sleep with a girl unless you know just what you're doing. It causes girls to "peak" sexually, and if you don't deliver the goods after this, it's interpreted as you having initiated sexual escalation but having failed or been stopped by her (or her having gotten her fill or lost interest).

That said, if you want to know how to do it properly, or what a deeper explanation of why not to do it if you can't do it properly, see this article: "How to Kiss Girls in Public and Have It Go Great."

Chase

340Breeze's picture

Proactive Asshole vs Reactive Asshole


Since I already commented on this article, I'll comment on another one here.

So I was reading your asshole article and I couldn't agree more. The path toward dominance is freeing yourself from attachment to people's approval and it's hard to do that if you're too polite and not asshole enough. It's so much easier and COMFORTABLE to do what you want when people's approval and them liking you aren't hidden subconscious goals of yours. So it's good to adopt the mindsets of going after what you want first and telling whoever doesn't like it to pound sand while of course not going out of your way to piss people off. So your message is only do it when necessary.

That's what I want to focus on.
Much of your advice on the technical side seems to be reactionary and on the defense vs proactive and on the offense.

For example, in technical recommendation #5 you say: disagree with people. By implication this means someone must first have a position for you to then disagree with. Reactive. Likewise in #2)you say when people fish for compliments bust their stones. Very funny. Very assholish. But still reactive, since if you take your advice literally, if people don't first fish for anything then there's nothing for you to bust on. Similar reactive arguments can be made for most of the points except #4. Not saying this is bad but just an observation.

So my question to you is, is your message on being an asshole then: "the best way to go about being an asshole is in response to other people?" What are your thoughts about going on the offense, being proactive and bringing some asshole energy when you feel like without first having to wait on other people to respond. Do you have any technical recommendations for going about being an effective proactive asshole (whether playful or sexual) or would you recommend waiting until someone first acts for you to react like an asshole, if necessary? Or would being a proactive asshole violate sprezzatura and make you have to expend more effort (being an asshole) in getting what you want (sex, etc)?

Just a curiosity of mine.

Cheers,

340Breeze.

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Proactive Asshole vs Reactive Asshole

Author

Breeze-

Interesting questions on the nuances in this comment section (this and your previous comment).

I think a good way of thinking about the asshole mentality (as I define it, anyway) is "if everyone was totally in control of himself and properly socially calibrated, no one would ever need to act like an asshole, ever." The asshole is more a reaction to 1.) people trying to get "stuff" from you (whether approval, or validation, or social status, or what have you), or 2.) people trying to nudge you out of the way so they can get "stuff" from someone or something else.

The strongest "proactive asshole" example I can come up with is Steve Jobs's management style. Jobs management style was to aggressively challenge anything he found lacking - e.g., he'd tell people things sucked in blunt terms, or were terrible, etc. This is active challenging, being abrasive, and is something you'd probably term proactive asshole behavior. It's dicey, because it's polarizing behavior - you alienate a lot of people, but certain people absolutely adore you. If you're good with it, it can make you look quite powerful. However, because you're putting the effort out first, it's easy for someone who's a bigger asshole than you to come back and tear you apart IF you're inaccurate in your criticisms OR he's not open to hearing them and just wants to put you in your place.

You might also say that stating your own opinions can be very proactive asshole. I very much try to make the articles I write here as accessible to a broad audience as I possibly can, but I still have people who come on here and say, "You're an asshole for talking about women this way," or "You're an asshole for teaching this." Any time you tell it like it is, there are always going to be people who are offended, and the less you sugar coat things, the more of them there are.

For purposes of seduction, I'd suggest keeping your "proactive asshole" under wraps most of the time, and just employing it defensively. However, if you start getting hints that a girl you're talking with is going to agree with your opinions, you can start making strong opinions and criticizing people who think differently, and if your read is right, she'll become very excited, very quickly. The reason I don't recommend this more is because most of the women you'll meet will have enough opinion differences with you that throwing around your opinions too loudly scares most of them off.

Then again, you can always use it as a combined screen/magnet - scare off the women you wouldn't get along with anyway, and attract to yourself the ones you absolutely would.

There's also general bullying / teasing other people, what I term social ladder climbing; if you find yourself doing it to or around a sufficiently socially aware person, he'll turn it back on you at twice the strength, and if you do it around a sufficiently socially aware woman, she'll read it as a sign you're of upper middle class social status or so, rather than elite. So this form of proactive asshole is generally avoided, unless you're around all lower status, less socially attuned women, who may mistakenly find it an impressive show of dominance.

Chase

Gem's picture

Not Building a Reputation


Hey Chase,

Do you have any tips on not building a reputation (or extra unwanted attention) getting girls in college?

There was a Ricardus article I remember reading a while back where Ricardus mentions a guy who would always notice him walking with a different girl and would smile and say "you never fail man, never!". I've been having a similar sort of thing happen to me lately as I've been more regularly movingn/pulling girls away from the library.

-Gem

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Not Building a Reputation

Author

Gem-

The post I'd direct you to would be Peter's article on this from his social circle series: "Killer Reputation Management for Your Social Circle"; although, the whole series (4 articles) is good if you want a solid handle on reputation management in social circles in general.

When it comes to specific venues, you'll go through that if you have favorite venues; the best thing to do is make friends with the people who are regularly there, and once they know you more personally, if they're cool, they'll usually hold their tongues so as not to mess you up. If they still keep doing it, it's easy to lean in the next time you see them and say, "Hey man... I don't know if I'll meet a girl today or whatnot, but if I do, can you not call stuff out? It kinda ruins the vibe. You can always high five me the next time you see me!" Being a little more discreet / less animated in your approach helps this too, as does going at different hours of the day and different days.

Chase

Troy's picture

Site Navigation


Chase,

I saw a comment and your reply in "The Wrapping and Present " article, about site navigation and there being a "site map". Well i want to share a few thoughts/Ideas:

1) I think there are ten categories here: phone numbers, sex e.t.c.. . maybe you could have a map with all articles in there categories where you click on one of the links and a map comes up with all the articles in a nice pattern (example: a cell phone pattern/picture with all articles relating to phone game dropped along here).

Think of when you would google a 3d map of the world and how you would see the buildings, roads and water bodies.

2) Or maybe a 3d map similar to what i said above.

3) I think a lot of men like video games so a map that is like a video game might be interesting. An example would be something similar to "grand theft auto" (or any game you see fit that you like). It could be like a challenge where you have to play a part of the game as a character who is completely unattractive to people (and girls) in every way but he goes through the game and upgrades himself. There would be a few patterns that he would have to choose (similar to the mini eBooks example: the first few tasks he has to tackle are stop chasing women, get over approach anxiety and get over victim mentality).

The game could be like a learning experience where the readers here play the game and sees a rough look at how there game character improves himself and at the same time the reader would have to go out and practise his skills instead of sitting at the computer all day playing a girlchase game on upgrading his CHARACTER skills instead of actively going out and getting better plus a homework guide.

This idea of mine about a game/map might be too much work for now and your technician might not be able to put a game together to do this. However i thought it would be interesting and maybe in the future when you get a game expert producer that you could work on this. What are your thoughts ON ALL this?

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Site Navigation

Author

Troy-

The map with different icons on it is a neat thought, yeah. At some point, what I really need to do is go through each of the articles and re-categorize them... the categories we've been placing articles in have gotten kind of arbitrary, and some key categories don't exist (e.g., we should have a separate "sex" category, but all the sex stuff has been going into "relationships", etc.). The part of the site is just a little wooly and in need of a good combing.

A game is an interesting concept; I've turned over a few ideas in my head over the past few years, but we're not close to being in a position where I could hire some talented game designers to make something that would work and be engaging and teach at the same time. I think an app is a better fit than a straight-up game, at least at first... the challenge is building one that gets guys actually doing assignments in real life, and not just with their noses in a video game. You can play through all 32 of the Romp games and help Jake "find the slut" (as they put it there) and still be no better at meeting women in real life, for instance, fun as those games are. So the question is, can you build something that people genuinely enjoy playing, and that gets them to improve their actual skill base at the same time?

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Help


Hi Chase, hope you can help me with this problem I have.

Basically, I am unsure what I want and undecided between two lifestyles/relationship arrangements.

One half of me really desires a personal, connective lasting relationship with a girl - the other half wants to experiment and keep things casual, developing connections and exploring the physical side of things with multiple women.

I am at the stage where I understand relationship dynamics and feel in control of my own destiny so to speak, but I am stuck between two minds. Hope you can advise me how to come to a conclusion etc.

It's so hard, I think it would be lovely to have a relationship with a girl and only her, providing we felt the same and loved each other. I understand the intense emotions die down, but the simmering love and affection can be maintained if the chemistry is suited.

But also, the lifestyle of a seducer is appealing, gaining more experience with women, all the excitement etc.

I just don't know how to decide. There is really nothing that leans me towards a particular side. I don't feel pressured by either or belive that one is more right that the other etc.

But it's like if I were to find a girl I loved, how could I turn my back on that? At the same time I would be turning my back on loads of invaluable experience...

I know you'll probably say, if I feel I could do with more experience then I should gain that first, but I ask you:

How can you turn away love for a girl?

Also I feel no matter how much experience I gain there will always be more to had. One other little way of improving myself with women etc. I don't feel as though I will ever reach a stage where I feel completely 100% and so ready to give up learning, because there is always something new to learn.

Would appreciate your advice.

I worry about finding a girl who is perfect for me, but turning my back on it all and regretting it later. But at the same time I worry about getting myself all sucked into a relationship, and then thinking, man I totally should have just kept things casual and had some more fun over the last two years.

Chase Amante's picture

Path

Author

Anon-

Both paths have much to teach you. I'd recommend keeping things not overly serious until you find a girl you're absolutely crazy about - and then, when you want that, you can do it. If your goal was "become legendary with women", I'd tell you otherwise... but that's kind of a niche goal, and not one that is really what most guys are after.

I assume you're still pretty young. When you're young, love can feel like this great big magical thing that is not to be missed out on, and fighting it really is quite taxing. Your first few relationships you tend to assume will of course last forever, but once you've gone into and come out of a few of them, your mentality changes, and you realize that a girlfriend is not a wife. At that point, once you have some relationship experience under your belt, you'll have come out on the other side from the intensity of an early relationship, and you'll say to yourself, "All right. I don't want to do THAT again for quite a while. Let's go keep things light and casual for now."

And then at some point eventually you'll probably start craving the closeness of a more serious relationship again. People are cyclical in this way.

So, I'd say... don't worry about it too much. Try not to get stuck with the first girl who comes along just because she's there and she's "good enough", but if you meet a girl who's great, there's no reason not to take some time off and explore a relationship with her. Most people go through a good number of relationships before they retire from the game for good, and even many of those who settle down into a marriage "forever" end up back single again 5 or 10 or 15 years later, picking up right where they left off. The older you get, the less permanent everything begins to seem.

Chase

Royce's picture

Age Problem?


Awesome article Chase! I'd like to get your opinion on younger guys(-17) sleeping with older girls(18+) and the potential risks, benefits, and whether you'd recommend it or not. Seeing you have exceptional amounts of experience with women and probably with life/law because you're in business, I thought it would be best to ask you. Thanks

Royce

Chase Amante's picture

Re: Age Problem?

Author

Royce-

Not much light I can shine there, except to say check out the laws for your state / country - you'll want to make sure you're not putting the girls you're getting together with at any legal risk. Last thing you want to end up with is some girl ending up in prison because she decided to take a chance on you!

Chase

African boyo's picture

Good feeling addiction


Hi chase

From reading your articles and my own experience ive realised that getting a girl attracted to you is about providing good feelings and remaining scarce. I had a question about good feelings specifically as the only ones i know are to provide laughter and good sex. My question is is there anything more than those two. I was thinking i could add being romantic to the list but it seems a bit tryhard and may come across as me investing more than her.could you please list the other good feelings that get a girl hooked on someone

Chase Amante's picture

Different Kinds of Good Feelings

Author

Boyo-

Yes, absolutely, all kinds of good feelings, including:

Some of those you might not necessarily term "good" (e.g., scarcity, competitiveness, etc.), but women love the thrill of them, and chase you down because they feel them - you get to be a the real life equivalent of a horror movie or a roller coaster ride... you give them sensations that electrify them and make them feel alive, and because of this, they want you more.

Laughter is a good feeling, but it's a defuser of tension - it's only one side of the equation. You must build the tension first, then release it with laughter. Too much laughter without the requisite tension just leads to a "that guy is funny and always makes me laugh" feeling toward you, instead of a "damn that guy is sexy... and he doesn't take himself too seriously, either" feel, which is what you want.

Chase

Anonymous's picture

As a Woman


You are kind of an asshole, but you are absolutely correct---and I don't mean that as an insult. Just pointing out the literal.

I agree with most of what is being said, but there is one variable being left out, which is the older lady and younger guy. Which actually throws off dynamics intensely.

Most of my twenties, I spent a lot of time being that broad who would try to make the ole' FB my boyfriend. This really didn't work out. It never has, it never will when a woman tries this route (although someone told me 1 in 5 turn into that). BUT I find that even when women know they are wrong, they will still sometimes make bad decisions---be it from lack of self-esteem or just being stupid. Or drunk. Alcohold can affect this.

We know we do it, though.

Anyway, after my last long term relationship ended (7 years), it was a bevy of change and emotion. Personally, I was just not in a place to rapidly sleep with tons of dudes to get over it. Emotionally---not even close to wanting to be with someone again; To have to think too much about someone else's needs and thoughts. Sometimes you just don't feel like it.

So I started banging a guy I work with (I am 33 and he is 23.) And it's perfect. As someone who can get easily jealous, I have used this as an excercise for that amongst other things. And the fact that there really can't be much of a future at this point (It's not in me to take away this guys' livilihood even if he did "think" he loved me). NO way, no how. But, and I was wasted the first time I hit it with him, it was really, really good sex. And three months later it still is. I mean, the dude can lay it down.

Honestly, it's great. And sometimes hilarious. I mean, biologically as women, we do get emotionally attached, but I have experienced what this feels like, without it really being truly valid.

This all being said, I really just wanted to say something as a woman. I think most women engage in these situations for every reason you mentioned, I am not doubting that...BUT I am kind of over reading about how the only women who engage in these have self-esteem issues, etc. It's not everyone.

Sometimes women just need a temporary situation that fulfills that sexual need without having to even think about having real feelings for someone else. Obviously these have their own issues, and that's a whole other post.

Anyway...

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • HTML tags will be transformed to conform to HTML standards.
  • You may insert videos with [video:URL]

More information about formatting options

Image CAPTCHA
Enter the characters shown in the image.