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Sometimes you’re out and about and you meet a girl and take a number from her.
And for whatever reason, she isn’t all that attracted to you.
Yet for whatever reason, she still gives you her phone number.
And then for whatever reason, she agrees to meet up with you.
But you can sense this one is going through the motions.
It might not quite be the friend zone yet, but it’s pretty darn close. And she doesn’t even know you.
So what do you do... just meet up with her anyway and hope you can change her mind?
Well, you CAN do that... but if you don’t have a game plan for it, it’s like opting for a few games of Black Jack when you don’t really understand how to play Black Jack.
There’s some chance you walk away with winnings, but most of the time you’re only going to waste your time, probably going to waste your money, and if your ego’s wrapped up in it you may well take a self-esteem hit too.
So let’s set out some strategy for those “friend zone” dates, and talk:
- Prevention,
- Treatment, and
- Cure
Comments
Made for me
This is exactly what I kept facing!
Thanks Chase!
Chase
Freakin love you bro. Thanks for everything
First Date
Hey Chase,
I don't really have the issue of being friend zoned much. But this article made me think about something we always preach. The general idea is that we should go for first date sex. I'm a fan of this, but I've notice my chances of bringing a girl to bed skyrocket when I do the informational date first and then set up a date where I can seduce her. Many women have an idea of not having sex on the first date even if the guys comes off as the lover and not the provider. Sure, many girls do have that first date sex, but I think having the informational date first gets rid of all the preconceived notions she might be afraid that you're going to have against her if she sleep with you on the first night, even if you convey that you're a sexual man.
I've even had girls say while we're hooking up something like "not on the first night" when I go to get their pants off. Even with persistence, I will often lose to her in this scenario. Simply going for the informational date completely seems to get rid of this problem.
What're your thoughts on this?
Also, do you believe men who have "provider-type" jobs should not mention them to women upon initial seduction unless it comes up (i.e.: lawyers, doctors, etc.)? I have one of these jobs and I find that it brings my value up too high, even though I'm a sexual man and look the part of a sexy bad boy. Women are surprised when I tell them what I do, because I really do look like the bad boy type. Is it perhaps good to convey what I I do AND be the sexy guy? That way she gets the bad boy who she will want to convert to a provider, and thus the chase begins?
Your thoughts and insights are always greatly appreciated. You really are the best in the game, Chase.
Cheers,
Evan
My experience with mentioning
My experience with mentioning a job from your list is an immediate increase in percieved value, that often led to a slightly awkward moment. Softer girls get selfconscious and I felt like I had to up attainability immediately, which wasn`t too smooth.
Some more aggressive poorer girls especially from eastern europe tend to get a "Jackpot!" look. After that it feels like the interaction is no longer about me and her, but about her imagining telling her friends about her now increased social status.
When I was more needy I tried cocky/funny and tell some obvious lie about my occupation like Astronaut or Adult Industry. This did not work.
Nowadays I am more of a mindset to "own who I am". I dress more buisiness like and more and more avoid to aproach girls with obviously much lower status. Just too much effort to play around who I am.
My advice is to go for the girls you think are "too good for you". Either model looks, or academic backgrounds. In my experince these are actually easier, once you get into the process.
Being congruent and aggressive works then. Moving fast is no longer a problem. Especially women who are fully aware that they can have most men no matter what, do feel less need to prove that they aren`t "easy". Simply for reasons of competition they are obviously not.
First-Date Sex, Prestige Jobs
Evan-
Great comments from Some Guy in the reply above mine.
I’ve found (since I used to have a prestige job as well) it’s better to keep that job in your back pocket and bring it out for girls who are similarly high prestige to show them you’re on a similar level to them. Like Some Guy notes, it makes things easier with these girls than it is with others, primarily because they just don’t meet a whole lot of attractive guys who ALSO have their ducks in a row career-wise/income-wise.
With girls who aren’t from a similar socioeconomic background or don’t otherwise have some high prestige thing going on about them, I focus on describing myself in terms of artistic inclinations I have (e.g., I’m a writer, I’m a traveler, I’m a dreamer, etc.), and just mention whatever I do for money in vague terms. e.g., in my old prestige job I’d describe that as “I help businesses optimize the way they do things,” which sounds somewhat interesting and important without making me sound out-of-their-leagues.
These days I often still say the same thing, just not mentioning that the business I optimize happens to be my own (since it seems like if you tell a girl you’re a business owner, she either thinks you’re a starving entrepreneur or a multimillionaire business magnate, and I don’t want to be seen as either of those guys).
If I was a lawyer I’d say, “I put the bad guys in jail,” or if I was a doctor I’d say, “I keep people alive.” When she asks for clarification (“What, like a lawyer?” or “What, like a doctor?”), I’d just say yeah, then change the topic / ask her about herself. Because you didn’t say it, it’s not so much an attainability thing – you’re humble.
As for the informational date, then sex-date deal, I suspect it’s either how you’re conducting yourself on these dates, or it’s a confidence thing. If the former, then you’re probably not building enough of a connection OR creating enough of an “experience” on the first date to get first date sex. If it’s the latter, you may just be thinking, “This isn’t going to work,” and it’s leaking through in your comportment and generating pushback. So long as it’s working for you and you’re happy with it, I don’t see a problem; however, if you want to change it, I’d take a little time to try and figure out if it was a technical problem with what you’re doing, or a psychological problem bleeding through into your actions.
I’ll tell you for me, even before I found the pickup community or studied anything from other guys going for first-date sex was my M.O., and still today the vast majority of my lays are either SDL/SNL, or first-date sex. If you get the “but it’s the first date!” resistance, all that typically means is you didn’t make her feel connected enough, or you didn’t make her feel excited enough… so do better next time ;)
Chase
Hey thanks for the new
Hey thanks for the new article. I needed some advice. This girl is who is my sister's friend whom I had a crush for very long time. I asked her if she would come for a treat then she asked who else is coming. Basic after that I ignored her for 1 year then I was shifting from that place I asked her again since it was farewell, she said is sister is coming I said no, she trouble me around or ask second questions we agreed on a Saturday she said to call her. I didn't call her on that Saturday but on Monday night didn't pick up,, I saw roaming on street towards her home. I was like fuck her. By the way, my fundamentals are better then just OK. I know you people have a lot on your plate but reply fast today is Thursday. Thank you pushpendra
Friend zone?
I've been on Girlschase for a while and have learned some pretty awesome stuff over the years. These new articles you've been writing I think are fantastic. I have been reading between the lines for years dabbling between different material from countless seduction and pickup artists. I've always been sort of a natural were as many woman are always around me and laying women is pretty easy if I choose to lead my night down that path, were If I actively search for a woman to take home that night I usually can do it; but consistently enough I stumble on lays just by accident which I always find fun because that mean my fundamentals are solid.
I find these new articles interesting because pickup/seduction is usually predicated on taking some sort of signal from a woman and acting on it, fully exploring these signals triggered by woman escalating all the way through until your taking the woman to bed. These new articles have awaken the idea that its perfectly ok to enjoy one monogamous relationship. I am in a situation where I have this one woman who calls and texts me every day and night consistently. She just got out of a relationship, so she claims she wants to be single for a while.. She buys me food, drinks, and even payed for a few dates but me being a gentlemen I pay most of the time and force her not to pay. We hang out pretty often, at times she brings the conversation sexual but when I explore those signals she shoots them down wit no explanation. She touches me often, and asks me for back massages. She is very consistent, which is something I find attractive in a female and usually catches my attention. I thought id turn to my good old pals at girlschase for some help. This has been going on for about 3 weeks going on 4. Its weird because normally girls would have just went to bed already especially after these kind of signs. Any advice id love to hear a response from someone.
Re: Friend Zone?
Raven-
I had a situation that was I suppose similar a number of years back with a girl. In her case she seemed to be somewhat sexually reserved and thought I was a playboy. She also thought she needed to play hard to get. So she stretched it out a long while.
Eventually I told her I needed to go hit the dating pool and couldn’t really devote time to her anymore, and a few weeks after that I took a great new girlfriend for a while and spent most of my time on her, and avoided this other girl. The older girl started throwing herself at me at that point and trying to invite herself over to my place, etc., but by then I was afraid she’d get too clingy if we slept together so I shut it down. I haven’t given a girl nearly as much slack since; if it doesn’t happen quickly, I’ll already have moved on.
At least in this girl’s case, she seemed to not be terribly good at judging people, and was aware she wasn’t a good judge, so proceeded cautiously as a result of that. To the point where it was simply too cautious for me, I cut her off, and then she chased hard. Not sure how applicable that is to your situation, but it was an unusual situation for me, and the closest I’ve got for what you’re dealing with.
Chase
The Control Element
Hey Chase,
Thanks for the article again, bro!
It's so true about flaking. Flaking on girls and they will go cold. Sometimes a second chance and they go super warm, stick their necks out further in getting you out. Flake again? Fat chance in seeing her after that!
Had some supporting experiences of that too myself unfortunately. Now, I only invite them when I'm sure I can make it, and for the time I'm unavailable, I just don't contact them, go silent (as opposed to trying to do rapport or banter since that always go awry from my experiences). Worse part is sometimes they forget us altogether if too long has past since we met them.
Just curious, speaking of girls giving you conditions for the date, how do we maintain control?
1. Sometimes they counter propose logistics over text
"I don't like x, let's go y"
which is fine I suppose. It's a decision made together after all.
2. Sometimes they change last minute
"Hey.. I can't make it to x, let's change to y?"
Sort of a half-flake
3. Sometimes they suggest what to do on dates when you meet them.
Obviously, we have to get her used to our leading. So I guess here we do a "thoughtful look" then say, "Ok, that's not a bad idea"
But what do we do when she keeps suggesting things continuously?
Direct
"Let's go watch a movie!"
Socially adroitly / submissively (good!)
"Do you want to go watch a movie?"
In which case, it means I really want to watch a movie, but you're the man, so you make the shot.
Which I guess the correct response is same as above (saying yes essentially, but in a powerful way)
The bottom line is "avoid arguments as they kill attraction" but don't be a pushover.
Making that fine line, tips?
4. You two cook together but you suck at cooking
I had an idea of doing this at her place. But I'm terrible at cooking and being at her place, gives her full control (i.e. she tells you what to do, where to get condiments and tools, etc.). Not that conducive to getting her used to your lead, but great logistics
5. Location Friendly date
When we meet girls at school, at work, at somewhere, and she wants to meet at the same place, such as school, or at work, or whereever you two met and could see people either of you know (not covert!),
I always had a feeling these are "safe dates" because there's an undertone of friend zone in there.
"Let's meet at school!"
might as well mean
"Let's be friends!"
Correct me if I'm wrong
It's funny, I tried meeting them at school (note: "meet") then move them to a different location from there. After all, they said "meet"; they didn't say "stay" ;) (Literally told them that. Sassy!)
6. She suggests things to do when you two are at x, you two end up walking around
Similar to previous one
"Let's go to get sushi instead. It's just over there!"
7. "Separate"
For who should pay on dates, you mention about leaving the check there, and keep talking as if nothing had happened until she picks it up or asks what to do with it and you two go dutch.
What if it's a fast food and the cashier asks right away :
Together or separate?
I usually say "Separate" without shame ;)
I also notice some girls will start getting their wallets out before the cashier even asks. Good sign I think.
Re: She listens to her gal friend
So let's say her, me and a mutual friend all met in class (equivalent starting point). She asks for our opinion. I suggest something and the friend also suggests another, but she chooses her friend's suggestion.
It feels like she weighs the friend's opinion and decision on what path to take heavier than mine. Red flags are up that she's unattracted instinctively, but what do you think?
That's all I can remember for now.
I remember jotting these down in my logs, but my computer recently died and a year of logs are all gone. Never knew a tablet PC's hard drive can last less than a year.
What are your thoughts and advice, Chase?
Thanks,
Lawliet
Control
Lawliet-
Negotiate on terms.
e.g., plan is to meet at X bar. Girl says, “Hey, I don’t like X bar. Let’s do Y bar.” If you like Y bar, say, “Cool, Y bar it is.” If you don’t like Y bar / it isn’t conducive to dates, say, “Oh man, Y bar, haha, oh no. Okay, compromise pick: how about Z bar? That’s a nice cross between X bar and Y bar.”
Yes, a “Let’s meet at school!” message is “Let’s just be friends.” It’s a polite brush-off.
I wouldn’t say “Separate” to a cashier. Bad undertones there. I’d just say, “I’m paying for the burger and she’s paying for the fries and milkshake,” or, “I’ll pay for mine,” or, “Can you bring me the check for the [whatever you are having yourself]?”
Chase
good strategy again.
again chase, strategy/tactics are on point. forcing her to reveal her hand (which women are generally reluctant to do) without anyone losing too much face, is a great approach. i've learned over the journey several tactics to determine where she stands, based on "watch what she does, not what she says".
One I've found is spot on is physical contact (which you have mentioned before). when women baulk or freeze up to light physical contact, its time to go. it's worth remembering that as men we generally have only one reason to meet a woman; women can have multiple, so we must smoke out her true agenda.
Touch for the Reveal
Blogster-
Indeed. There are times it makes sense to not force her to reveal her hand (like if she’s clearly on the fence with you, but you know what you’re doing and aren’t otherwise in a hurry / afraid of wasting time), however quite often it’s the more efficient option with girls who’re neither here nor there.
Touch is a great revealer, yes. It’s still possible to sleep with girls who shrink back from your touch, but it’s an uphill battle, and only worth doing if you really want to challenge yourself. Otherwise, if she’s treating you like your fingertips are icy, time to bail.
Chase
The Myth of the Friend Zone
Ovid is considered along with Virgil and Homer and was one the three great poet/thinkers of the Roman-Greco area. He probably seduced more women in a month than most self-proclaimed gurus do in a lifetime.
In his "Artis Amoris" he writes:
"Let Love steal in disguised as Friendship. I've often seen a woman thus disarmed, and friendship ripen into love."
Guys who condemn the friend zone do not understand it's nuances, how to exploit them, and basically need the instant gratification of the easy score.
The greatest failure of the philosophies of "pick-up-artists" is their universal condemnation of what they consider is relationship purgatory.
In a poll referenced in Psychology Today, 62% of opposite-sex friends report sexual tension. A Match.com poll revealed that 62% of platonic friendships crossed over the line into a sexual relationship. In that same poll, 94% of the respondents reported that they believed it was possible for a friendship to evolve into a romantic relationship.
Nuances of Friend Zone
Christian-
Yes, it’s absolutely possible to sleep with girls from the “friend zone”, but there’s also a big difference between how a guy like Ovid or Casanova operates in the friend zone and how Frank the sensitive modern man who’s only had one girlfriend before and doesn’t understand women operates in it. The friend zone can be very different places for different kinds of men.
Most of the guys looking for help on the friend zone on Girls Chase aren’t saying, “Women find me very sexy and want to sleep with me. How can I use the friend zone to sleep with women who might otherwise be closed to me?” They are instead often saying, “Women do not find me sexually attractive and they toss me into the friend zone to stave off my advances. How do I get out of the friend zone / stop this from happening?”
We get a fair few guys who come on here, use the material, then sleep with girls they were formerly in the “friend zone” with because once they get their fundamentals in shape, start meeting other women and building abundance, and demand their “friend” respect their time more, she starts seeing them as a sexual option – more like an Ovid or a Casanova.
On the other hand, there’s a moral imperative to get the guys who are not yet able to do that out of situations where they’re obsessed with girls who are ignoring them and dating other guys, because they’re not going to get those girls (yet). It’s important to get guys tackling the right areas for where they’re at with girls if we want to get them results.
Chase
A playa for life!
Just read your article about settling down Chase, lots of questions.
1. The main reason I do not want to get married nor have kids is because of what you wrote for reason number 3, guys get screwed by the system, I've seen it so many times, and do not want to go through it. im not cynical about marriage, i just feel i really dont need to do it, I feel if a person wants to stay with you, they will ring or not, just because you get married doesn't mean you won't get divorced or separated. so I feel having kids is more important.
What are other non emotional reasons to not get married ?
2. How do you not end up lonely if you end up not getting married, whether you want to be a player or a person just sucks with women he doesn't even have the option? what if someone doesn't find a mate, or doesn't have kids?
I do like the idea of having someone to grow old with and have your kids to take care of you, most importantly I want my legacy to continue even if I don't get married.
3. I'm at the first stage right now, but I'm not no young teen, I'm close to 30, does that mean that it will take me longer to get to the wanting to marry stage or does it speed up because of age?
4. I'm still not where I want to be with women, that is 1 of my other biggest reasons for not having kids or marry, I need to sleep with more women, I need to conquer this, and can't see myself getting married til like 50 if I have to. My question is how can I make this possible? how much time do I really have if I'm close to 30?
5. I really want to get better and sleep with more women, I'm desperate about getting better and not looking back with regrets, I still approach at clubs and parties, but I just get numbers and no sex! Idk what to do! What can I do to get as much experience as I can before 40? I want to be a playa for life!
6. Do u plan on getting married again? do you have kids? plan on having kids?
are you gonna be a playa for life?
thanks
Settling Down, Learning Too Slow
SZ-
Well, if you get lonely, you’ll probably will get married (or into some kind of mostly-permanent arrangement), so I wouldn’t worry about that one too much. Either you won’t be lonely and you’ll stay single, or you’ll start feeling lonely and pick a gal.
First stage length is dependent on upbringing (were you raised with an abundance of choice?), environment (do you currently have an abundance of choice?), perceived potential (do you suspect you can get much higher caliber women than you currently get?), and experience (do you feel like you need a lot more experience / have a lot more dating/living to do still?), from what I can tell. Mix all that in together and you can start to guess, roughly, when you might proceed to the next stage.
I’ll tell you anecdotally though, guys who are 30+ and unhappy with their results with women don’t seem to last too long on the singles market. That’s because as soon as you finally get a girl who feels like she’s at the level you think you should be dating at, she feels like such a godsend that you decide to wife her up. That doesn’t happen to every guy, but I see it happen to lots of ‘em. The lower your abundance, the more an unusually high caliber girl will tend to hook you in. The one exception are the guys are 30+ but recently divorced… they’re somewhat immune since they just came out of a marriage situation.
As for approaching, do 100 approaches a week and invite 2 women home each day. Do that for two months. Keep a journal on it. If you’re not substantially better at the end of those two months, I’ll be very surprised.
If that seems like it’s too much to start with – did you complete the Newbie Assignment yet? I know you’re on the boards, but I didn’t see a journal by you, so assuming you haven’t done that yet. You can start there instead if you like. But from what I’ve seen you say before, you’re not getting either the volume or the methodical learning (i.e., working on one piece until you get it down, then working on another, then another) to see much improvement. If you just hit the basketball court a couple of times a week and only take a couple of shots each time, you’re not going to be on the All Star lineup anytime soon.
Chase
Learning too slow
Chase, I just realized right now that I'm learning too slow. Things are not happening fast for me at all. I've been on this sight for years and it has helped me a lot, I got a lot more girls and got better at handling situations a lot better, and it helped me move fast and get some lays too.
but I realized that being on this site for a few years I should have way more lays. I have been clubbing a majority of the time and have been sleeping with women from work. All of my lays have came from work, I never slept with a girl from club game, and I still have yet to try day game for whatever reason, I just can't get mentally around it.
I'm sitting here thinking, "damn I have been on this site for years, and have gotten club make outs, numbers, but never a date nor sex from these club girls."
I have been hitting the clubs hard! and I still try to now when I can, but I'm more or less in the same spot I was in since I have been going to clubs for the past few years.
I have always slept with girls within social circle before reading this site, but after reading this site it made me 100x better at it than I was before, I got better at getting girls from clubs as well, but I have not been fucking new girls as I should.
There was a point in time where I would get a number from a girl every time I went out to the club, I'd say maybe 50 numbers in a year, and I did not even get 1 date, but I still persevered.
Is the fact that I'm not doing day game messing me up this much?
does day game really matter that much?
That's the only area where I haven't tried, I just can't get myself to do it, but I have been trying social game and club game.
I should of gotten at least one lay off of the 50 club girls, I have Been stuck for years at getting layed from women out of social circle.
Please tell me what I can do to speed up my learning right now and finally get more lays under my belt.
Thank you.
To explain further
To explain more about it... I only meet girls mostly at clubs and at my job there is no girls at all, so basically if I don't go to the club, I don't meet any girls, when I go out as well I don't see too many girls.
How can I meet more and solve my problem from the first post?
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