Quit Letting Girls Off the Hook So Much | Girls Chase

Quit Letting Girls Off the Hook So Much

Chase Amante

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Chase Amante's picture

I’ve seen a sickness in men, and it is chucking out validation like bread at the duck pond.

Here, I’ll show you what I mean.

Let’s say you compliment a girl, and she refuses it. Like so:

You: Your hair is spectacular.

Her: Oh, actually I haven’t even combed it today, haha.

What do you say next?

If you’re like most guys, you let girls off the hook with something along the lines of:

You: Well you can’t even tell. It looks awesome.

letting girls off the hook

Or, let’s say you text a girl, ask her out, yet she declines (in a nice way). Like:

You: Andie, let’s go to this wine tasting they’re having Thursday night!

Her: Oh no, I sooo want to go, but my parents are in town this week! I have to spend time with them!

How do you respond? If you’re like most guys, it’s something like:

You: Oh man, well, I’ll miss you, but have fun with your parents!

Do you sense anything slightly wrong with these responses?

Is there an almost indecipherable air of excess ‘niceness’ in them?

That excess niceness you’re picking up on is validation – and letting her off the hook.

Comments

Aleksandar's picture

I am writing in reference to "the winners effect" both on testosterone levels as well as psychologically.
This has bugged me for a while now and i really need some advice here, be it from the moderators or fellow commentators that have had to deal with this.

Basically the situation is this: I am trying to make a win in every situation i find possible. Be it an argument, objectives completed or simply tasks done on time.
But, often i stumble upon alpha males or people clueless to life and stubborn that simply won`t budge and won`t allow me to get a win in a certain scenario.

My question is this: in a scenario ( eg argument ) when i know i am right and i have won the argument, but the other person ( or persons ) simply won`t roll over and will continue to discredit my argument as invalid, should i push even further to make them realize they are wrong or should i just simply smile knowingly that i am in the right and they are in the wrong, build up a win in my mind and walk out of there ?

Simply put: in a situation where the obvious winner is me, but they won`t acknowledge it, should i push more or smile and leave?

How will this effect me in the long run, will this be a genuine win?

Would be grateful for an advice here, as this really hinders my progress at the moment.

T's picture

I have some questions (and please answer them to yourself)
Why is it important to always keep right?
Is it a topic to hold out against an examination or is it an abstract topic (like e.g. an discussion about freedom where different oppinions are the "truth" depending on the point of view)?
Do you really think in a discussion is one the "winner" (I dont talk about politics :-) ?
What if your point of view isn't his (or hers)?
Why is it important for you to "win" ?
How important is the topic for you? (Me e.g. always intervene at once when somthing comes up like "men are....... men should..... something I have learned from feminism :-) ....and as for me the devil may care about what follows then....)
and last but not least:
Where do you know that YOU are right?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Aleksander-

Very much depends on the situation.

But I’ll tell you, most arguments are emotion-based, not logic-based. Which makes them well nigh unwinnable without battering your opponent emotionally.

There are really four kinds of arguments, as I see it:

  1. Arguments resolvable by testing (e.g., “Does this pickup line work?”)
  2. Emotional arguments you must win (e.g., power struggles)
  3. Positions you should seek to understand (e.g., respectful debates)
  4. Arguments you just need to get out of (e.g., non-public disrespectful debates)

If you can test it, test it. Just say, “This is stupid, why are we debating this, let’s go and test.”

If it’s not testable and it’s an emotional argument you must win to win a power struggle in a relationship or save face in front of an audience, then in that case sure, use the full heft of moral superiority and blaming, argue dirty, and then once the opponent backs down you can extend an olive branch and discuss calmly and rationally.

If it’s a calm, reasonable debate, it should NOT be about winning – it should be about understanding why you and this other person differ in views. For instance, if he says “X is a pox on society” and you say “X is a good thing for society”, rather than try to “win” you are best, if he can debate calmly, to say okay, WHY do you think X is a pox on society, and seek to understand his perspective, and gradually compare it to yours and find out why he thinks what he thinks and why he thinks X is bad and what his experiences have been that have diverged from yours.

If it’s not a calm, reasoned debate (e.g., the other side insults you), and there’s no need to win it to achieve a victory in a power struggle or in front of an audience where you might otherwise be perceived to have lost, and thus lost face and influence, you should simply pull the plug on it, either by telling him you’re not interested in having an emotional back and forth where you call each other names, or simply stating you see no point to the argument since he clearly has a deeply held belief and so do you and the two of you will not resolve this by yelling at each other. (in that case you’ll tend to come out testosterone neutral, at least from what I’ve been able to tell from my own reactions walking away from disagreements like this)

So I’d say win if you must win (to emerge victorious in a relationship power struggle or to not be seen a loser in front of an audience), but otherwise either seek to put things immediately to the test and let reality determine the winner; seek to understand the other party’s position and come to mutual agreement; or, if the other party cannot be respectful, and it’s just going to be him sliming you and you sliming him, call him out on this, and leave the discussion.

Chase

Zac's picture

I like to add another way to do it.

You: Andie, let’s go to this wine tasting they’re having Thursday night!
Her: Oh no, I sooo want to go, but my parents are in town this week! I have to spend time with them!
You: Ar.... (raise voice in ascending where she can feel it but it's neutral), it's okay.

Not sure if it works pretty good because i never count how things work out, with that ascending voice thing. I only remember parts of it where they are cool with it.

Zac

Ambiance's picture

Chase-

You've done it again. Here's another article that fits perfectly with a sticking point of mine in the most timely manner. I had mostly discovered the non-verbal response to a compliment refusal, but the text rejection has been a big problem for me, and I've lost a number of girl's respect after otherwise knocking their socks off. Never again :) your writing continues to inspire.

-A

Alexander's picture

Same here, I was just about to write this same comment lol.

Byron's picture

Chase,

I've noticed that I use hm or mhm a lot more recently, even in texting girls, and it polarizes them (either frustrating them or making them invest more).
I wanted to ask about the elite talkative and elite smooth types. I have three different personas that I slip into according to my mood, one is a very brooding one, which is what I started with when learning game, and I am trying to transition out of it into either smooth or talkative. The others are smooth and talkative, which I cannot decide between. All three are in beginner/intermediate stage, with I think brooding and talkative being more effective than smooth is thus far for me. I know you've written an article detailing each type, and I think that it has shaped many of our perspectives on our own styles, especially on the boards. I was wondering if you could write an article, or article series, detailing each type more specifically, especially in how to get there, and what the elite levels of each style of game look like, as well as various differences in fundamentals, reactions, etc (basically a more in depth version of the previous article).
Then again, I am sure you are very busy, it is just a suggestion, and I look forward to the new product whenever it is released!

As always, thank you for your life-changing advice,
Byron

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Byron-

I’ve actually built a lot more detail on the smooth and talkative types into the new course already, with an entire lesson (about 40-60 minutes of video and probably 50 pages in the book for that module) devoted to it [it’s a pretty big course]. Will be plenty of discussion, demonstration of different types, and whatnot. We’re in the process of settling on shoot dates right now; already have our location picked out.

I will add your request to the article queue as well; might be something I return to and crank out an article or two one of these days (I’m still trying to get myself interested enough to finish this series on leaders and followers…!).

Chase

KevinL's picture

Hey Chase,

In your article on what to do when a girl flakes, you mention that you should be cool with it and be on her side instead of getting pissed or getting cold. Would you agree that the exception to what you discuss above is when a girl flakes: that's when you should be nice and cool with it?
Otherwise, don't obviously be so nice and compliant.

Cheers,
Kevin

Lawliet's picture

Hey Kevin,

I'm not Chase, but from what I seen, it's more of "being genuine" than being nice.
There's an article on here called the "Genuine man", you should definitely check that out. It has lots of good info!

If you genuinely feel bad for her, showing it is fine.
However, if you're being "nice" just so you don't hurt her view of you or in hopes of getting rewarded, then that's... the "nice" described in this article.

When do you act nice?
It's simply a question to ask yourself, "Do you act because you feel it? or act because of avoiding social repercussions - her disliking you?" In the article, the first set of nice responses aren't done genuinely.
How do you know this?

Well first scenario, you're giving her a compliment. A compliment for god sakes!
And not only does she not thank you, but she's dismissing your compliment (by disagreeing with you). It's actually really rude if you think about it. If someone is rude to you, will you say, "Oh! Ok! You're welcome!"

In the second one, she's making it difficult for you when you're making effort to set up an amazing experience with each other. Just imagine you're setting up the best party in the world and you're inviting your closest friends, and they only tell you, "I'm busy" in response, how would you feel? On top of that, this girl is just someone you met once.

When you see things in a "genuine" or "nice" sense, it starts becoming a lot more clearer. Hope you got something out of my little rant! For more info, check out genuine man series on this site! And "Why do girls not like nice guys" in March 2016.

Just my two cents!
Lawliet

Lawliet's picture

Hey Kevin,

Sorry about that. I think you mean in the context of "When she flakes" article, and how Chase describes to not make it a big deal vs. "letting her off the hook" concept here.

Therefore, when to "let her off the hook" as in "When she flakes", instead of berating her and when not to let her that off easily.

That I have no idea and good question!
Lawliet

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Kevin-

Yes, flakes I advise you to err on the side of being unambiguously magnanimous about it.

The reason for that is that if she’s flaking, she has no idea how you’re going to take it, and is going to assume she’s inconveniencing you. She’s been nice enough to agree to a date with you, and if you’re giving her the benefit of the doubt she was intending to come out with you but had to back out for whatever reason.

So you want to remove any suspicion she might have that you’re resentful or bitter about her not being able to make it. You want her emotion to basically be, “Whew! Okay, he’s not upset,” because that’s your best chance at a reschedule.

If she thinks you may be upset, she’ll think she may have ruined your day/plans, and she won’t want to see you again because now it’s awkward.

Important to be cool, calm, and a little on the nicer side with flakes (usually) than you would be with some of the other things girls aim to be let off the hook for.

She’s also done more for you in agreeing to the date and planning to go on the date – that’s a fair bit of investment. The girl who’s just making an offhand comment or isn’t even available for a date in the first place gets less of your magnanimity and is let off the hook less.

Chase

Marcus the MAN's picture

Superb article Mr. Amante.

Quick question... is there a way to make a girl invest even more in trying to win you back after you use the incredulous response and drop the conversation? Like you said the social pressure on her should be intense, but is there a way you can even take more advantage of that? What would you do to even put more social pressure on her? At your leisure, please respond.

Big fan of you and your methodology Chase, always will be...
-Marcus

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Marcus-

Yes… but… it depends very much on the situation and the girl.

The easiest way to do what you’re asking is to do it with a playful attitude.

e.g.,

You: Your hair is spectacular.

Her: Oh, actually I haven’t even combed it today, haha.

You: Hmm. [skeptical look, pause, turn your head away slowly] Neeeever miiind... [said playfully/dramatically]

Her: [laughs] Soooorry! I’m just being honest!

You: [mock frustration] All I wanted to do was pay you a nice compliment, but no. Clearly I should not have said ANYTHING.

Her: I really like the compliment! Thank you!

You: [look at her scoldingly] Hmph. Well, anyway... [change topic]

If you do it like that, and you’re extremely playful in your delivery of the follow up line and behave in a mock-hurt way, she can laugh and give chase a little and invest more.

It’s a little more silly than I like for myself, but if it jives with your style (and I know some guys who do this kind of thing), it can work well.

The important thing to remember with this is that you cannot seem resentful about it. So if you do it in a playful way, what you’re really doing is being ‘pretend resentful’, which makes it funny since you’re taking what others might normally do in that situation and role-playing in a humorous way. Then she role-plays chasing you, in a humorous way – but even if it’s humorous, she’s still doing it, and the chasing is enforced. You then get to reward her for her chasing and give her progress in the courtship (“Oh, okay”), which is now framed as what she was seeking.

Chase

MAN's picture

Thanks for the response Chase... I appreciate it!
-MAN

Lawliet's picture

Hi Chase,

Hope everything is smoothsailing for you right now!

Re: Article

If she shows consideration for you (not at the current text, but before), would we give them the same implicit text end?

So let's say...
You text her, and then she doesn't reply. A few days later, she tells you she was on a trip and then asks what your schedule is and then you two can meet up.

You give her some choices for this week and she says she's out of town this week and will be back next week.
I debated with myself on this one: "Should I just toss it right back at her and tell her to let me know when she's back or show some sort of consideration (or validation re: this article) since she did earlier?"

I ended up wishing her to have fun, but to text me when she's back (sorta balancing the consideration for her with now she has to do more work) instead of just "Have fun!" end. Attainability? (with consideration to how I cancelled two dates because of severe flu and fever - I called this time so she can hear me sick!)

After reading your article, starting to doubt if I did the right thing though.
Am I on the right track?

Re: Retail
I took your advice, finding a good speed that's deliberate but also not too slow.
But it's hard to do so when retail is all about fast and reactive.
Customer looks over to you and I jump to it or someone walking and I walk out of the way without being asked (obviously, they're customers and I'm serving them).

Although it's bad habit, I notice a lot of my mishaps and reactiveness much more now. I now know much better what unreactive vs. reactive means and feels like.
And being aware of what's the wrong thing to do, I try to constantly remind myself the moment it happens so it doesn't fall under common ground for me.

Then after work, it's back to elegant and sexy!
Looking things on the positive side, I learn a lot my shortcomings, but of course, retail isn't the best on the long term.

What do you think?

On the other hand, I do see lots of women. Lots in the supermarket!
Worse part is, I can't approach them at work!

Given how I fall in love at first sight so easily (low standards but still cute + empathy), it gets me so frustrated! And frustratedness = horny!
No wonder angry girls are horny! Anyways...

Advice on that? ;)

Lawliet

Lawliet's picture

Speaking of which, when we throw the ball back into their court, I'm guessing it's really really bad to switch back to grabbing the ball again, let's say, inviting her again after telling her to text you when she's back.

Then that makes "Throw the ball into her court" a very cautious move, don't do it until it's really appropriate regardless whether it was offhand or not, you will still be throwing it in her court. Once we do it, there's not coming back?

Sort of a "Last make it or break it attempt"?
But girls are forgetful...great, now I'm not sure if I should act as if nothing happened and text her out to something else!

I might try to see what happens anyway since I know she's invested (she gave me a gift or so when we met, something from her purse? I was taken aback when it first happened but that was a month ago).

Simply put, do we ever grab the ball back from her court?
Or is the TBIHC move a "final all-in" deal?

Thanks,
Lawliet

Lawliet

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Lawliet-

If she’s telling you when she’s available, then you just say “cool” and schedule with her for then.

I can’t really give you career advice, other than to say if you can do something in sales, do it. Elsewise, I have those two articles up on the boards I’m sure you’ve seen by now:

As for throwing the ball in her court, yes – you’re to forget all about her after you do that. If she texts you to meet up later, it’s back on. If she doesn’t, meet new girls.

Ideally you won’t be doing it until you’ve made an impression on her and she will WANT to get back in touch with you after a time. If girls aren’t reinitiating, improve your first impressions, improve your text game, and improve your phone calls if you’re using calling.

Chase

Jared's picture

Hey Chase,

Great article. It follows on for me after an unsuccessful venture I've very recently experienced with text game. I've been flaked twice through there with this girl I really tried to get to become my girlfriend. The first time I was furious but kept the anger in and let her off the hook. I tried again some days later and though she was all 'yes' to the idea of a second meet up, she flaked again on the day. Now I decided not to let her off the hook, risked knowing I was going to lose her saying the following: "I see you're a very busy girl. I'm going to stop taking initiative and let you tell me when you'd like to hang out." She didn't sound happy at first and then she texted me more afterwards but then everything went dead cold. It's been like that for 2 weeks now. I'm trying to get over the fact that I lost her, or more specifically, never stood a chance. Seriously, how is text game such a minefield especially when you have to be so careful what you say and what you do. Thanks!

Jared

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Jared-

That’s more or less how it is learning anything new.

You first start out, and you just plain suck. You try to do everything carefully, and you still fail. It’s frustrating – how can ANYBODY do this right?

Then as you gain more experience, the pieces start to fit together better for you. You still make mistakes, but after you make them you’re increasingly able to look back and say, “Ah. I see what I did,” and then the next time you do it better.

Eventually you reach the point where everything’s predictable, you’ve seen it all before, and the thing that used to be so difficult becomes a piece of cake.

At that point, it’s no longer about being careful, it’s just you know from experience that trying X or Y or Z is a waste of time, yet if you do ABC she’ll probably come meet you, and be excited about it to boot.

So, I realize it’s frustrating, but try to take the long view. You lose some great girls now, but you’ll get better ones later once you’ve honed the various parts of what it takes to get them, whether that’s the first meet, the texting, any phone calls you do, etc. (and all of those feed into and influence each other – the better the first impression, the less spectacular your texts must be; the better your texting, the more you can compensate for a mediocre first impression; the better your calling, the more you can balance out unimpressive impressions and texting; etc.).

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Hey Chase,

Great content on the site. Thanks for setting it up.

In the article "What to do when girls flake", you advocate acting like 'it's no big deal' and even making excuses for a girl when she flakes. In my mind, the information in this article conflicts with the WTDWGF article. Would you mind clarifying?

Personally, I've always felt a bit wary of letting a girl off the hook too easily and especially making excuses for her. At the same time, I see the importance of not losing your cool. My own intuition, combined with your own good advice, tells me that the answer lies somewhere in the middle. ie. When a girl flakes, express disappointment in her but don't go over the top. Your example above - "Bummer :(" - seems about right.

Right now, I'm having quite a bit of trouble with girls cancelling/flaking on plans. I always weed out flakes before the actual date, but its still a substantial issue for me. Any further advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
R

Kaelos's picture

I agree with this - it contradicts his previous writing here: http://www.girlschase.com/content/what-do-when-girls-flake

However, that article was written in 2011, so I'd definitely take Chase's advice now over his advice written 5 years ago.

Also, he specifically says "Do make excuses for girls where need be". In his example, the girl was extremely apologetic. So the advice of making excuses for her is only "where need be". Otherwise, don't make any excuse for her.

Ah, bummer :( seems to fit this pretty well unless she's blowing up your phone with apologies and wanting to reschedule immediately with you.

What do you mean when you say that girls cancel/flake on plans? They stand you up and never show up? Or the day of the date they text you to say they can't make it? Give actual example(s) of texts you get from them.

Author
Chase Amante's picture

Anon & Kaelos-

Right – the thing with a flake is she’s actually invested in spending the time to agree to a time/date/place with you and (presumably) was planning to actually meet up with you. She’s then had to cancel, which not only ups the tension, but makes her feel like maybe she’s really messed your schedule up or dashed your hopes.

For those reasons, I’d suggest you usually let girls largely off the hook – it’s just a bigger deal, there’s a lot more tension, and she has no idea how you’re going to take it. If you send her an ambiguous response, she’s a lot more likely to think, “Oh man, he’s really mad at me,” and go into hiding / not want to try and set up a meet with you again.

So, for lower investment incidents, like her refusing a compliment or refusing a date request, absolutely give her an ambiguous response and make her deal with the tension.

However, with something where she’s likely to be a lot more nervous and fear she’s really ticked you off, and she’s already invested, better to err on the side of being a little too nice to reassure her that you’re grateful for her investment thus far and aren’t holding a grudge against her.

Also see my response above to Kevin:

Flakes vs. Not Letting Her Off the Hook

Chase

Anonymous's picture

Thanks for the reply Kevin, Chase,

That's clarified things. So the reply depends on the investment level of the girl and the attitude of the girl when canceling the plans.

Low investment (of the girl), blasé attitude - not off the hook
Higher investment (of the girl), concerned attitude - let her off the hook

That makes sense in my situation as the girls I was talking about were mainly online and nightclub number pulls which I would consider low investment on the girls part. Always going to be a low percentage play anyway.

Cheers,
R

SZ's picture

any other book recommendations like the one u told me about fighting?

Author
Chase Amante's picture

SZ-

  • Sun Tzu, The Art of War
  • Hagakure (The Book of the Samurai)
  • Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
  • Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince

Those are all more or less about warfare, statecraft, and strategy (except Five Rings, which is very much about one-on-one fights with opponents), but they're highly applicable to brawls and street fights too.

Geoff Thompson also has some recommendations of his own in Dead or Alive, but I've not read those. Sounds like some of them are practical guides to brawling and street fighting, like Dead or Alive, and worth checking out, though.

Chase

Jimbo's picture

Great article, Chase, as usual. I don't know what it is, but there's always a vibe of genius to your writing and ideas that makes one go, "Woah, so true!" Nothing makes me mancrush on a dude like that kind of genius (no homo).

Anyway, there are couple of subjects I'd like you to consider sharing your thoughts on:

1. What we can take away from this whole 50 Shades phenomenon. Last week I found out even my grandma read it, and saw the movie! It seems that every female on earth from cradle to grave has read it. What's with this thing? Is there something we should know about it? I can't bring myself to read or even see it because romance bores me, but if you have, please consider writing on it.

2. That whole MGTOW movement. It seems to have gained steam lately. Their two main talking points are: - Women want to spend their prime years screwing around bad boys and then when they become less desirable they want to settle down with a good man to provide for them. So screw it, I'm not gonna be neither! - Marriage is a trap wherein in a woman grabs her man by the nuts because of all the divorce laws that favor her hugely nowadays and also because of her greedy nature. So screw it, no marriage from this guy!

Paulisplowking's picture

Thanks for another great article Chase.

Just a quick question, this advice seems kinda the opposite to what you said about dealing with flakes. Telling them something along the lines of "no worries, I hope everything's is okay! Let's reschedule another time" and acting totally indifferent.

The text example you gave here kinda seems the opposite.

Thanks again!

Paul.

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