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"It's odd that men feel they must protect women, since for the most part, they must be protected from men."
- Abigail Duniway
"It's odd that men feel they must protect women, since for the most part, they must be protected from men."One of the true but uncomfortable facts of life is that men and women treat each other the same way they treat other resources -- food, money, shelter, possessions. "You are mine," goes the thinking, much of the time. Or, alternatively, "You should be mine."
You'll see this in women to some degree, both with guys they want as providers and with guys they want as friends (curiously, women don't seem as fixated on "keeping" men in the lover category), but where you'll really see it a lot is with men -- particularly, the kind of man who doesn't get the kind of success with women he needs to feel that women are an abundant resource.
That kind of man is what you might call a "white knight." And he sees it as his mission in life to "save" women he views as "damsels in distress" -- only to make them his, of course.
If you ask me, this "pretend heroism" is a particularly sleazy way to try and get girls.
I'll share a personal anecdote: while I was out of town a few months back, my girlfriend, in a stressful position then, took to confiding in people about, well, everything that could possibly bother her. And, of course, as often happens in relationships, one of the primary things she confided about was me.
As it were, one of the folks she confided to turned out to be a real white knight. He was a photographer on a shoot she did; while she modeled, she also talked. And she vented about me. And this noble, heroic man, he decided that my girlfriend needed to be "saved" from me.
"I have to be honest, while we were shooting photographs today, I felt something for you," he told her in an email message afterward. "I want to take care of you," he continued. "This guy, your boyfriend, he doesn't realize what he's got. Maybe because he's too young -- he doesn't know how to value a woman as amazing as you are. I would treat you so well," he told her. "I want to take care of you after you break up with your boyfriend."
Sigh... I go away for a few weeks, and this is what I get, huh? Here he comes to save the day.
Comments
Wait a minute...?
Hi there,
and thanks for the interesting post again. There is one thing, though, that gives me the creeps:
"Ban him from her life. You may have to tell her to stop talking to this guy and cut off all contact with him."
Just like that? When having someone as your girlfriend, are you usually in such position that you can just tell them what to do and they'll obey? Because, if some guy tried to TELL me something like this, honestly, I would RUN.
To me, it seems somewhat ironic that you write this, after having just said in the same post that you don't want weak women as your girlfriends. If a woman is not weak, and if she, as you point out, can take care of herself, why would she let her man decide who she may talk to?
But I'm probably misunderstanding you here. Maybe you can explain. :)
Re: Wait a minute...?
Hey Woman-
Well, keep in mind that I'm writing this for an audience of guys, not how I'd talk to a girlfriend of mine.
So I won't look at a girlfriend of mine and say:
although actually, that would be kind of fun to do ;)
The way I phrase something like this with a girl is like so:
You're right, I do very much like strong women, though even with strong women I expect them to stand by me as good girlfriends. And generally speaking, even the strongest woman will stand by her man and heed his word if he does a good job getting his point across and why it's necessary for both of them and their relationship together, provided she respects him enough.
So no, I'm talking bluntly in the post here and not spelling out all the details of how such a conversation would go. But quite honestly, if I did find myself dating a girl who wanted to welcome into her life men who were whispering poison into her ear and she refused to stop talking to them after I told her to, that'd be a gigantic red flag to me and she'd get the ax in a hurry. Just as I'd expect a girlfriend of mine to point out someone who was a poisonous influence in my life and ask me to stop having that person as one of my influencers too.
Always have an eye on who's influencing the people who're close to you, because those influencers can reach unwelcome tendrils into your life through your friends, lovers, and confidantes...
Chase
Rep vs concern
"Always have an eye on who's influencing the people who're close to you, because those influencers can reach unwelcome tendrils into your life through your friends, lovers, and confidantes..."
I find this interesting, concerning rep vs not caring what people think. For sure I've landed on the ignoring them side, but I'm not sure this was the right move, and has resulted in people talking about me over the years constantly.. Things fester, and spread. At the same time being overly concerned or concerned at all seems a massive mistake. Do you have any articles on this?
I think handling the situation early on when you notice it would have been best. Saying something, then leaving it. Yet at the same time saying something vs not making a big deal out of it. Implementation is hard though.
Thanks for the reply
Hi again,
nice to hear more of your views. I think I get your point. You're right when you say that a woman should stand by her man, and I guess, at the end of the day, she wouldn't WANT to have someone as her friend who's constantly talking crap like this. Why would she? It would get annoying for her soon enough.
I just feel that you have quite strong opinions here. I mean, should you really be so afraid of other peoples influence? ("Afraid" is not the right word, sorry, as a foreigner I'm having some trouble with my English here. :) ) What I'm trying to say is, even if she's having someone as her friend, she doesn't have to believe everything he says. Can't she use her own better judgement? I mean, if I was in a good relationship with a man and someone like this appeared, I wouldn't necessarily kick him out of my life, not even if his true intentions were pointed out to me. I might, for sure, but not right away. I think I'd first try to talk to him, something like "Listen, I don't agree with you and I don't like it when you talk like this about my partner". And if he didn't believe me... Well, that would mostly be his problem. He'd be the one to suffer, trying to get me when it's not going to happen. I'd take it as his foolishness and nothing to do with me. So if, in spite of this annoyance, he would have some good sides in him, for which I'd still like to have him around, I wouldn't end our friendship.
Sometimes, you can disagree with people very strongly somewhere and still enjoy their company. Even if someone is trying to pull off the kind of stuff we're talking about here, simply seeing them as bad people and pure poison seems somewhat overdramatic to me. Even if it sure is annoying as hell. :) And if my man was very eagerly trying to get someone like this from my life, even in a polite way like you're describing here, I cannot help feeling a little suspicious. Why so afraid? Doesn't he trust me? Doesn't he think I can choose my own friends? And doesn't he think I have a will of my own if he's imagining that I'm ready to change my opinion of him and of our relationship just because some guy is talking crap?
But yes, there are limits. And I doubt if the friendship with the guy would last very long if he didn't finally agree to shut up. :)
Re: Influences
Hey again, Woman-
Aye, I do have strong opinions. I'll caution that this is one of those things that will always come across as grating to members of the opposite sex.
For instance, when I see somewhere on the Internet that a woman is saying, "I would NEVER date a man who blah blah [something I do]," my emotional gut reaction is to get defensive and dismiss her as some fool who doesn't know what she's talking about.
I think there's this intrinsic feeling we have that members of the opposite sex should accept us for exactly who we are, and if they don't, they're wrong. That tends to come out quite strongly on the Internet, where people state their opinions, and others either agree or become offended.
What you'll generally see is that the more someone needs a relationship / partner, the more willing he or she is to put up with things that are risky or potentially detrimental. For me personally right now, I don't particularly need or want a relationship (actually, my plan for the year had been to stay totally single all year and save myself the hassle of a relationship), so I'm in the position that if I'm with a girl who starts leaving doors open to people who can come mess my life up, either she can shut the door on that person or I'll shut the door on her.
Yes, I'm extremely wary of girls I'm seeing leaving the door open to other men who are working to get them or working against me. I know how the game is played; I've been on both sides of the coin. What happens when that door is left open is that either:
I have probaby about a month's lost productivity cumulatively due to dramatic outbursts from my girlfriend this year. One lost month in probably the most crucial, important year of my life for building my businesses: this is the one year that determines whether I succeed at laying a foundation that allows me to become really successful, or whether I fail and go get a desk job and lead an ordinary life for the next 60 years, which to me is not far from eternal damnation (or life in the suburbs).
If you've ever seen the movie The Count of Monte Cristo, there's a line where Dantes is figuring out Msr. Villeforte's motives where he says, "A politician like Villeforte would've rid himself of such acquaintances long ago." While I'm not a politician, it's kind of like that; I'm super selective about who's allowed in my life right now, and who the influences are on them.
When you're incredibly busy and you have a very high standard of person in your life, you really, really, really do not tolerate having people in your life who are going to screw with that and drive you off-course and mess that up. So, while it would be really nice and polite of me to try and hope and trust that a girl could handle things on her own and that it wouldn't screw my life up, I'm at the point where I really don't have the time or the bandwidth or the inclination for hoping and playing wait-and-see. I'm at capacity on how much stress I can handle right now, and if some girl wants to lay another level on that by opening doors to unpleasant people who want to screw things up for me, I'll shut the door on her if she won't shut the door on them.
Is that mean or selfish of me? I think it's a lot more mean and selfish of a girl to expect that she can open a lot of doors to low quality, unpleasant people and expect that I'm just going to be a pushover nice guy and put up with that.
So, I hate coming across sounding harsh and inflexible, because I certainly do try and make an effort to be, but if you want to know the full reasoning behind why I'm saying what I'm saying, that's effectively what it is: I'm just at the point where I'm not willing to tolerate even the uncertainty of "maybe" someone screwing my life up just because it's nice of me to do so.
Chase
Nicely Put!
Hi Chase,
I agree with a lot of what you're talking about here, though I'd describe those "White Knights" with a different term. "Fake White Knights" sounds more appropriate, if only because they're being VERY selective on who they help. If they do things like opening doors for beautiful women, but won't do so for say a disabled elderly woman, that's a dead giveaway that they're frauds. It's like you mentioned in your post - these frauds just want some sex or want to make a woman their property (don't we all?). That's not to say that there are genuinely good guys, the "True White Knights", who are immune to the "Damsel in Distress" trap...I've been there, done that. I just don't like cowards who only do good things just for a quick love-making session!
On the whole fighting off the Superman Syndrome part, I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said, Chase. I've had two long-term relationships with women who were damaged goods to the extreme extent - one who was sexually abused (also my first love), and the other was a homing beacon for sexual deviants. Both were damaged in their own ways and for whatever the reason, I was drawn towards saving both of them. As a result, I went through some crazy and dangerous roller coasters that I'd rather not repeat again. If this were a video game, these experiences fall would under Hard Mode.
Anyhow, I got lucky with my first love in that it turned out to be a really life-changing, positive experience for both of us. It's a little hard to describe, but it was a miraculous case of "two wrongs do make a right" - we were both messed up at the time, yet somehow we "fixed" each other up. The two of us parted on good terms and are now in much better shape than we were many years ago. I wasn't so lucky with my next relationship though.
I met the next damsel during a filming project (she was an actress) where I was in charge of the production crew and filming the whole thing.This new woman was superficially complete - beauty, brains, finances, and even had a charm around her. In addition, she struck first and stunned me when she correctly deduced (on our first conversation, no less) my ability to lead/empower others. Hearing that made me feel like I just won the big lottery, and I wanted to get to know her more. After a few days, the only things I noticed were that this woman attracted unwanted attention and she had some issues to deal with.
So I decided to give her a shot and it was good at first. But, I slowly realized that this damsel wasn't quite the perfect package as I had thought. She attracted more drama than I thought, expected too much from me, would put a frown on my face, and when it mattered most, was never there for me. I denied these realities because some part of me wanted to give her a chance to better herself, just like my first love was able to do. In the end, this damsel couldn't do that and broke things up in a really nasty blindside.
The blindside mentally scarred me so much, to let her in my inner sanctum and place so much faith on her, that I spent the next year trying to work myself to death. Thanks to some caring co-workers, I was able to stop myself from doing just that in time. I haven't been in a relationship for 2.5 years since then, but now I've learned my lesson. Don't date damsels who really are succubi in disguise, and go for the strong, positive, energetic women who can lift you up!
- A
Re: Damsels in distress
Hey ADP,
Ouch, yeah, pretty amazing how much a girl going through some drama can mess things up for you, huh?
Interesting to note that the second girl was an actress. I've had a fair degree of interaction with actresses myself, and I've noticed that a great deal of them do seem to be damaged goods. I'd wager that the motivation that drives them to become on-screen celebrities and to go into acting as a career is the same thing that drives them to be dramatic and seek out attention from people in general.
The strong, positive, uplifting women it is, brother. Here's hoping your next relationship ends up being with a gal just like that!
Cheers,
Chase
I'm surprised you recommend
I'm surprised you recommend these solutions on handling these white knights. I would think that the best course of action for them would to simply apply the Law of Least Effort here and blow them off.
If a girl is telling me about a guy that's actively pursuing her, why not just smile and say something like 'I wish him luck.' And if she seems to hype him up a lot and maybe even get dramatic and bring him up in a fight, you can say something like 'I tell you what: go date your amazing white knight and let me know how it goes.' and leave. Why not do that? Isn't one of the keys to a successful relationship showing that you don't need her? That you're able to walk away at any time and continue your life no sweat?
Honestly, if a girl was sitting there telling me about a new amazing guy she met and how he treats her so well and then accused me of not treating her as well, the last thing I would recommend is to get defensive over that drama. Right?
Thank you Chase and Ricardus,
Thank you Chase and Ricardus, for everything!
i was once this guy im
i was once this guy im ashamed but now that i know i will change i became lyk this needy aftr an accident that left a large scar on my forehead making me always uneasy and insecure my mom always tried her best to build my self esteem makin me dependent on people who boostd my ego,i read paragon project crashcourse which after a few success i went into a major nose dive n lots of depression thnx 4 helpin recoverin guys lyk us out n helpin us get a 2nd shot in lyf!God bless ur work!
Recovering super hero
As someone who used to go through life thinking I had this magic ability to "save" damaged women, I'd like to offer half an ounce of sympathy to men who are still trapped in this mindset. Solving problems is a "manly" thing to do. What better problem is there than a beautiful woman who is obviously riddled with issues? It's a moronic attitude to have, to say the least. At three different points in my life I've tried to "save" girls (not stealing them from other dudes, just believing I could take these emotionally scarred women and "fix" them) and those are exactly the three women who have managed to crawl into the deepest crevices of my mind and absolutely screw with my thinking. Every other woman I've ever dated (i.e., healthy, together, self-reliant) has given me no problems whatsoever and even though those relationships did eventually end (I move around quite a bit so I'm not exactly a picture of stability myself), they ended on good terms. I think society puts this notion in the minds of men that women need to be saved from a very early age and it's tough to break out of it (technically, I broke out of it almost ten years ago and then recently a troubled girl managed to get me to forget everything I had taught myself about this issue and I am still recovering from the emotional damage she did to me with every bullet point you listed [flakiness, etc.]).
So, long story short (too late), let's not forget that these "white knights," as goofy as they may seem (and underhanded, with respect to the ones who go after other dudes' girlfriends), are just suffering from one of the many misguided social programming mechanisms that only further complicate things between what should be the most natural relationship of all--the relationship between man and woman.
So basically, what i gathered
So basically, what i gathered is, label people, avoid certain types that can prove to be problematic for you, go towards ones that benefit you. Window shopping for mates.
There's no love in self preservation.
People are people, not items..take each relationship or person for what/who they are, without the generalizations..
an anon's .02
I wouldn't consider these
I wouldn't consider these points to be generalizations. Obviously not all girls are DiD's and not all guys are 'white knights', but these ARE personality traits in people. Also, I haven't met many of them that only have one or two of these things: they come in a package.
These girls are always in Crisis Mode because they haven't gotten the fairytale ending yet (which they won't be happy with, because then there's no more lifelong goal, now is there?), so they make terrible friends that continually drain energy until you have none left. Probably doesn't end too well for the boyfriend, either.
The guys, if you're lucky, are simply annoying gnats if they lock onto you/your girl. If you're not lucky, they'll nitpick any and all problems in life until you're miserable, which in turn makes everyone else miserable too, until he's finally chased off or loses interest.
I don't really support telling your girlfriend what to do in life (telling her not to see him anymore? Please tell me you do this with lots of logical facts on why her life would be better without him.) but his character profiling is spot on.
The links in the article are
The links in the article are taking us visitors to /content/content/page where it should be only /content/page. There's a bug for you.
Links
Anon-
Thanks for pointing that bug out - all fixed now.
Chase
The other side of the coin.
"They readily put the blame for their issues on you." - This is a point that confused me greatly when I started to distance myself from a girl I work with, because her constant 'needs' and favour asking was grinding my gears, she was clearly using me under the guise of 'I'm attracted to you', (despite being happy in a long term relationship). When I put a stop to it she actually acted like I was in the wrong for not doing shit for her. Unbelievable! I actually had started to have feelings for her and had somehow become her 'go to guy' for her problems, but due to her unavailability I did the right thing and ended the friendship instead of taking it further (which there was certainly a window for). This just lead her to react badly towards me, and she moved on to another guy very quickly. A painful lesson learnt about 'damsel in distress' women from a guy not trying to mess with other peoples relationships.
However one point I would like to make to you Chase which is quite poignant. You are looking at this from the perspective of the disgruntled boyfriend having his girl manipulated, however most guys who play the 'white knight' role are not deceptive schemers, they are individuals who had highly dysfunctional childhoods in which they were expected to carry their Mothers emotional burdens. They had highly codependent relationships with their Mothers or parents where they were expected to act as an emotional support instead of the Mother giving the support to them. This is not uncommon and is sometimes referred to as 'emotional incest'. It creates a pattern of behaviour in adulthood where the guy feels it is his responsibility to act as an emotional support/savior to women, and any women who seems distressed for whatever reason will trigger this psychological pattern within him in a major way.
Interestingly it is actually this codependent dynamic between Mothers and Sons that has given rise to the PUA community, as this behaviour ultimately results in guys getting walked all over, which turns them bitter towards women. So instead of addressing their core issues surrounding this they instead devise a way to 'game' women in cynical scripted or rehearsed ways that gets them their desired result. Ultimately they are still codependent, adapting their behaviour towards the woman's 'needs', but in a much more effective way that caters to the women in a way that will get them laid.
I know this from personal experience but thankfully have enough self-awareness not to fall into the PUA trap, or get completely sucked in to dysfunctional relationships due to my issues. I choose instead to break down the walls in my own psyche, recognize the patterns and change my behaviour to a more balanced functional way. It has been eye opening and sadly has made me realize just how many toxic/dysfunctional behaviours and relationships I have been involved in.
Just wanted to share that with you, I hope you read this, as I enjoy your site and find some good knowledge on here.
Thanks.
White knight
I can readily identify with the damsel in distress type. I've been involved with such a woman for a few years and only recently did I realize what was really going on. When we met, I was immediately attracted to her, physically and emotionally. After knowing he'd for a while, We became closer and started to become more involved. I was really interested in making her my long term GF, although now I realize I was probably just being needy and possessive. Over the course of time, I came to understand she had financial issues and I wound up paying for many of her expenses. At first I did this out of concern for her welfare, but after several years of continually paying her debts, I began to grow resentful. I realized I was doing this to keep her happy so as not to lose the good things in our relationship ( closeness, common interests, romantic feelings). I was obviously in a state of denial, suppressing my own doubts in order to receive her love and affection.
The other thing I noticed was when I would try to complain about her financial irresponsibility, she somehow would always try to excuse her actions or even try to turn the tables and make it seem like it was my fault. Like "if only you were there at the time, I wouldn't have spent so carelessly ." No matter how many times she promised to change, it didn't happen and every time I bailed her out, I felt guilty about it. She seemed to have this idea that since we were lovers, I should accept her even with her faults
And, like Chase said, when I finally couldn't take care of yet another personal problem of hers, she found someone else. Interestingly, this didn't work out and after months apart, she returned to me, again asking for help. I actually made the mistake of falling for this again, then began to realize what I had been doing. And I slowly came to the realization that it wasn't just get with the problem. I had a problem with myself as well. I sacrificed my time and money in order to maintain a relationship with someone I had a romantic attraction to. In the end, I gave up some of my self-respect..
Hmm
"The moral of the story though, is that there are guys out there who're like this, and they're lonely, and they're desperate, and they don't care what relationships they destroy or whom they burn in their rush to "save" these poor damsels in distress they fancy."
This is somewhat true, but at the same time, there is a certain sickening Machiavellian undertone to the bedding and subsequent fucking of a girl who breaks down in tears at hurting her boyfriend of 4 months, and the apparent shallow flightiness of her emotional excitement afterwards is even more disgusting. To be frank: I think you're an asshole for your blatant disregard of their relational dynamic, as though you are just playing a self-serving 'game' of sexual and emotional gratification, and I think she is weak-willed and duplicitous for her indecision and inability to resist her impulses (something I have actually noticed in a lot of women which makes it really difficult for me to respect them as equals).
I understand that I have much to do with regards to self-improvement particularly in the social and dating arena, and most of your articles are tremendous food for thought to me, but there also seems to be a certain competitive self-centredness inherent to the reasoning of many people that I find both tiresome and distressing. It seems to be one step removed from sociopathy and is emotionally exhausting for someone with my natural inclinations to adapt to.
What if hes a friend
What if this white knight happens to be a friend? Well I'm not particularly close to him but hes a close part of my social circle. I just got into a relationship with this girl and we both met her around the same time. She is already seemingly close to him and he is in a position of trust. He used to do things like take her and her sister out to dinner and visit them a lot. I don't think he is contacting her as much since we got together, but he is still around and still a big threat.
There isn't anything really going on with them, but I feel like I can't just say something about him because she will just dismiss it as nothing. He is not skilled, but lonely, desperate and prone to being obsessive. Seeing as he is a part of my social circle and I knew him way before she ever came into the picture. I can't say anything about not seeing him or talking to him anymore. And the big thing that bothers me is he is usually a pussy when it comes to girls. Being super nice and buying them gifts and whatever. But with her they have a playful banter going on and for whatever reason he is more sociable and assertive with my girl.
What can I do without coming off as some jealous, possessive guy and try not to cause a stir within my group of friends?
You see, a white knight
You see, a white knight doesn't end up with a woman like mine -- a strong, independent girl who's perfectly fine taking care of herself -- try thought he might.
Sigh
Damsels in distress
How can you accurately classify one as being wholly a damsel in distress? I don't see why guys can get away with being 'cynical and pessimistic' and it coming off as alluding some sort of mystery and attraction, but it not having the same effect with girls who are the same way. These past two years, I'll admit, I have acted like a damsel in distress... not in a romantic, sexual way, as my romantic life is non-existent; I am 18 years old, and could be said to be 'trying to find myself', would I say that I am disloyal? Absolutely not! On this topic, I will blow my own trumpet and say, once I accept someone as being trustworthy, I am as loyal as anything. The reasons I would classify myself as being a damsel, is most probably my extensive reading list growing up. But I don't think it's a valid assumption to say I am a complete damsel; I would also classify myself as being strong and independent; I detest to display any kind of weakness to be masses, but would only show them to the few genuinely trustworthy people I know, but they happen to be men... which would, I guess, go against my argument of not being a damsel, but they don't see me as a potential partner, they are just sort of 'mentor' of my life at this moment. Like I said earlier, I am going through a stressful period, and I find it difficult to make decisions that I have no prior experience in making, but these 'men', there's only one I have some kind of contact with at this moment, but I feel the need to tell him, or 'catch him up' on what has been happening, so he can further advise me. I am not a damsel, I just need some help at this moment...is that so bad?
I know what I want in a life partner, someone who can take care of me, but allow me my independence in the things I want, and if I need help, to be there to possibly provide me with solutions of how to go about fixing things. I want someone strong enough not to be mentally 'dragged' down with my negative outlet of 'problems', but just to lend me an ear when I wish to express myself emotionally.
The thing is, my problems cause me stress, yes, but that's only one part of my life, I can be very happy about a book I just read, or some news I heard or being happy with him, and that's separate to my feelings of sadness over my stressed situation. People know women are multi-faceted, but they paint them with 'one brush' so to speak, as being in just one category.
I don't know if you think I am a damsel from what I told you, but I am tired of waiting for someone to 'save' me from the situation I am in; in addition, me wanting to be 'saved', has nothing to do with romance, if an employer of the field I want to go into, saw that I had potential and wanted to 'save' me, that would be amazing.
P.S you spoke about how in a rational world, if you saved a woman, she should see the effort and be eternally grateful (I'm paraphrasing here), I think I would be eternally grateful and appreciative if someone who was 'my type' including not being an arsehole, saved me. And I am pretty sure I would be eternally grateful and appreciative to my husband for treating me right and giving me gifts even when we're arguing about something.
Thanks for reading this, sorry for it's length
xoxo
AnonymousGirl
So accurate, thank you so much for the answers
Omgosh! So accurate. I have to change and need to get rid of my superman syndrome. No wonder I ended up with my ex-gf who's a damsel-in-distress. We broke up because she found a white knight and I caught them with their nasty messages and they're secretly seeing each other.
My mistake was I did everything I could whenever my ex has a problem. I thought that will prove something to her. But now I'm wrong. I realized I'm always stressed, I always get the blame, and all I received was deceitfulness and disloyalty.
Anyways, thank you so much for writing this article. I knew there's something wrong but I couldn't pinpoint before. I was ignorant about relationships. I learned a lot and next time I will be careful. I will focus on attraction and will find the right girl. And now I don't regret my breakup with my ex because it will end up worse if I still stayed in the relationship. She was a user, liar and cheater. After getting the answers here, I forgive her because now I can finally move on..
Thank you.
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