PAYING women to go on dates (not just dinner)

Anyone familiar with this concept or have done this?

Let me explain. I found out about this site called whatsyourprice back in 2011 when it was brand spanking new. The whole concept is that "generous" members (typically male) pay "attractive" members (mostly female) to go on dates. Similar to auctions where someone would bid for a date with someone at a fair/charity and get to go on a date with them, but this is done in the online dating format. On the site a girl can wink at me and I can send her an offer which she can either accept, decline, or counter-offer. I can wink at a girl and she can decline the wink or send me an offer. I went on one date in 2011 with an Asian girl that was more on the average side and agreed to pay $60 from the site which I did at the end of the date. It did feel awkward just handing a girl cash like I was a John or something, hahaha.

Before I joined the site I had been using POF and Okcupid on and off since 2008. I even tried a subscription to Match and a Yahoo dating site earlier than that but cancelled my subscription due to lack of results. POF and Okcupid were better alternatives since they are free but my luck there was horrible. I only managed to go on one date (my first date ever in my life) and I really was not attracted to her at all. The sad thing is she liked me a lot but she was on the heavy side and I just felt no attraction at all. In retrospect I could have just gotten some experience and possibly have had a first GF and lose my virginity with a real girl instead of an escort (which I ended up doing at age 25 since I was so sexually frustrated and depressed). Anyways with the traditional online dating sites, I really never got any flirts or women messaging me. I would send a bunch of messages out and never hear back from any girls. Some "nice" girls would chat back and forth with me but it never led to anything and we never met up. I really tried to lower my standards and go for women I normally wouldn't be attracted to. That was the mistake I made with the one date I went on. I believe my height (5'5") had a lot to do with my low success rate on those sites. I live in Orange County and a lot of the women are extremely shallow and will even display on their profile that you have to be at least 5'10" and White (even non-White girls, especially Asians would even have this preference!!!!) I am Eurasian by the way and typically was attracted to White girls. Now I am more into Mid-Eastern women, Latinas, and foreign White girls from Europe. I can't stand OC White chicks.

Arrrggghhh I couldn't take it anymore so the whatsyourprice site seemed like a good option at the time. The tables were completely turned. I went from being completely ignored on the traditional online dating websites to having constant flirts from beautiful women out of my league. Granted a lot of the women there are looking for sugar daddies but many still get grossed out when a 60+ guy is trying to date them or proposition them with a mutually beneficial arrangement, so going out with a younger guy willing to pay was somewhat enticing. I started using this site heavily in 2012 and up to the present. I have had the ability to go on dates with 7s, 8s, and 9s and typically will pay $100 - $150 for their company. Kind of cheating, but it was hilarious and kind of a social experiment to see the stares my date and I would get while at a restaurant. I remember going on a date with a Russian model that looked like a Megan Fox look-alike and was 2 inches taller (probably more with the boots she was wearing) than me and this guy kept starring at our table probably wondering "how the hell did that happen!!!??"

The downside, I have found out the hard way is that many of the women see the site as a business. They are serial daters and just go for first date funds and to have a free meal. Others are looking for a sugar daddy that will pay their rent, school tuition, and buy them things. I have met a few that were more genuine but I screwed things up with them since I had no concept of game, let the attraction window expire, and was too aloof (I used to wait 1-2 weeks after a date before contacting them again and this lead to auto-reject most of the time). Even when I did hear back I think I made the second meet too complicated and would not lead and make decisions. My text messaging style was really boring and matter of fact which I learned kills intrigue and interest to reply back. I did not engage in sprezzatura at all! My messages were always long winded and 2-3 times longer than anything they text/messaged me which I also found out was bad. Hate to say it but I most likely came of as a "creepy" guy after the date. During the date I was probably labeled as a "nice guy" and then when I texted and did not hear back, I would keep following up and not get the hint which made me creepy. I would then go into a deep depression.

In conclusion, what do you guys think of this site and the concept of paying hot women for dates? I'm pretty sure this goes against all Chase talks about, but it has at least given me experience talking to super attractive women. Most of the women on there are models, aspiring actresses, college students, and many are foreigners (Europeans, Brazilians, etc.) Things have improved for me a bit. When I first started, the date typically ended with a hug which she usually had to initiate, hahahaha. Then finally this aspiring model actually kissed me at the end of the date which got me really excited. I was so naive and thought I sealed the deal and was going to have a model as a GF. After our text communications died I got really depressed since I really wanted her and she was so hot (looked like Olivia Wilde). The next first was having my first second date! When the communications died from that I went into another deep depression since I kept thinking when am I ever going to meet a hot young Persian girl fresh from Iran again?! The next first was being invited over to a girl's house for the first time which happened during a second date. She was two years older than me and I chickened out, we just ended up sleeping in her bed together with her dog sleeping on its bed on the ground. Biggest blue balls experience ever and it was because I hardly even tried to work past her defenses. She kept touching me and I touched her once and she moved her hand and that's all it took for me to give up, LOL. I'll end it here before embarrassing myself anymore. Hoping my next first, will by my first lay from that site and/or outside of it.

The first step to improving yourself is to recognize your mistakes which you have done.

If you get out on the street and learn day game you will find some girls who will date you without you paying. Think of it more as an opportunity for the both of you to get to know each other with something simple and low costing than an expensive formal date.

Forget about websites that just want to make money from you by taking advantage of your naivety.

Good Vibes said:

The first step to improving yourself is to recognize your mistakes which you have done.

If you get out on the street and learn day game you will find some girls who will date you without you paying. Think of it more as an opportunity for the both of you to get to know each other with something simple and low costing than an expensive formal date.

Forget about websites that just want to make money from you by taking advantage of your naivety.

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Very true.

For some reason day game terrifies me. I never even talk to random dudes in public let alone beautiful women. Being an introvert makes things extra difficult as I don't even put much effort into pursuing friendships and spend most of my time alone even at work. This is going to be a major challenge but I'm sure will be well worth it.

I guess I have gotten a little spoiled from using whatsyourprice. Like I mentioned I have been able to go from not dating at all to dating hot chicks right off the bat. I did not have to date average or below average girls and went straight to the super hot ones. Cheating in a way since I did not have to work my way up to meeting/dating hot women, but I really wasn't ready. I would still say it was a good experience just learning how to talk to hot women since in the past they were just people you starred at and seemed so out of reach. I have gotten used to joking around and deep diving with them to a degree which 2 years ago I would have never thought possible.

There are a lot of bad apples (gold diggers, narcissists, users) on that site though like I mentioned. Others rationalize that they get so much messages on regular online dating sites from countless numbers of guys and with whatsyourprice they know a man is serious if he is willing to pay for their company. It helps narrow things down (or so they say, ahahah) and maybe meet guys they would have not considered in the past. The founder claims men are getting the "chance" to meet beautiful women, where they may never have had the opportunity on regular dating websites or real life. You have to pay for subscriptions for the non-free online dating websites anyway so I myself rationalized that I can setup a date with a hot chick within a week for $100 or pay $29.99 on Match or eHarmony and maybe not get a date for 6-12 months. I have to say it is tempting but still not great for getting myself out of my comfort zone in the long run.

I don't know anything about that website but it sounds like an even bigger false economy than traditional websites.

The girls are in it for money, do you really want that? I can't see anything coming from a website like that unless you have serious cash to keep a girl interested.
I think your major problem is that you seem to have not been with many women yet expect to have a Persian Model girlfriend? It's just not realistic my friend, I mean, it could happen and I hope it does for you but most guys are not that lucky to get the girl of their dreams right off the bat and I don't think paying for it is the way to go. It's not real success.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, I'm just saying it because I feel you need to get out in the real world, set more realistic goals for yourself and work your way up to meeting better and better girls, but you need to start from the beginning and just start meeting girls for real! As you improve they will like you for YOU. When money is involved it's just not for real.

While the things you can learn on this site are so great, I don't think they apply to this sort of dating... I mean... I when you talk of auto-rejection from not following up quick enough... was it really that or was it because she didn't see another pay-day coming soon enough.
In the real world the things you learn here are for real and money is not involved in squewing peoples impressions and logic.

Best of luck man.

Here is a woman's perspective, and I am guessing that I am probably a good bit older than you, so will try to help'..As a woman that has dated in real life, online, sugardaddy dating, as well as whatsyourprice.com, Estate, is very right in that these women are just after 'easy money'. However, I do not care if you have day game, night game, holiday or full moon game, if you are 5'5", below average looking(per what you stated), and not only want a woman far out of yor league, but a model to boot? Not going to happen. Ever. Unless...you date these women on 'whatsyourprice', or its sister site, 'seeking arrangement' and set up some sort of arrangement to pay for their time with you. Of course, there are women who are goldiggers off this site too, but if you are looking for smoking hot model types, then expect to pay for their time or help support their lifestyle on an ongoing basis. It is what it is. I am not the hot 25 year old that I once was, so I do not have as many offers as I used to, but I am still attractive for my age, still get offers and have had sugar daddy's my age(one a little younger)and a little bit older. I know what I realistically can get and accept that. If you are getting perfect 10 models to give you a chance for $150, then that isn't a bad deal, really...most of my dates from that site have never been below $200, and I am not smoking hot anymore(and it was strictly a date, nothing more)...Anyway, not to be harsh but if you want the truth, then you have to be realistic in your expectations. It is scientifically proven that most people marry and have relationships within their own 'attractiveness league', for a reason. Also, it is true that more men than women will 'date up' and 'marry up', but once again a money incentive comes into play and most often it is because the man has some sort of monetary perk, or better lifestyle, to offer the woman. Although, I have a couple of female friends whose husbands are quite a bit more attractive than they are, but it seems to work for them. Not everyone is superficial and has to have a stunning bird, but they have a lot in common(value systems, intellect, goals..ect.). Anyway, I totally get why you want these hot model types(especially, since you have limited experience with women, so you are trying to make up for lost time, probably), but just know that they will be more than willing, if you offer to 'help them out'. Sure, you should try running day game(or night game, or whatever game when you can), but these sort of 'arrangements' cut out all that time and effort. Furthermore, both parties are getting something out of the deal, so there are no hurt feelings or resentments. I will get flack for saying that these hot women on 'whatsyourprice.com' are being manipulative, but how is that manipulative but 'running manipulative game' is not? Most women these days are privy to 'manipulative' game', if that is what is being referenced. Unless, you mean the more straightforward type of game, in which the woman is down for just hooking up too, which is perfectly fine. But, really hot women are usually looking for a, 'Brad Pitt type', not a, 'Danny Divito'. However, in you OP it seems that you are looking for a serious girlfriend and lots of sex with a hot woman. This is possible, as stated, but you have to have the $$$ to keep her interested. Good luck in your search.

I don't want to offend anyone here but I just feel like helping or encouraging the OP with this style of "game" is not really a solution in the long run.
The results or non-results from something like that just have no bearing on real life. We're all hear because we got to a point in our lives when this all felt a bit hopeless and we began to change things.

Getting Hot Persian Model Girlfriends? Heck, if it was easy, we'd all just have one and never need any of this site. But it's not easy, if you're inexperienced, it takes work.
It's not impossible though and I don't agree that it HAS to take a lot of money... actually, any money at all. If that is the case, you don't want that girl.

If you're starting from the start you have to have some perspective and be realistic though. I went through a phase and I know also friends of mine where it's like a girl has to be Super hot for you to be interested in approaching her but the catch is because you are not used to doing it, you won't approach her BECAUSE she's so hot. You just need to get it out of your head. If it's a girlfriend you want, you'd be surprised how little looks matter at the end of the day. I've met some really hot girls who's personalities just sucked or they were complete wasters or stuck up their own ass and it was incredibly unattractive. I've also met girls and dated girls who were modest about their looks, infact they were awesome girls but didn't flaunt it and they were some of the nicest girls I've ever met.

It feels like you think you can buy a hot model girlfriend or else you are resigned to an overweight, unattractive girlfriend... you know women are people too and come in all shapes, sizes and sorts right?

Hmm, well some of your points might be true, in limited circumstances, but are more likely the exception rather than the rule..I don't care if you work 24 hours a day to get a hot Persian model, if you are 5'5'', do not have the looks/charm or money, then it will not happen...a really hot Persian model is going to want someone equally hot, her height and at least a level or two beneath her attractiveness scale, if all other variables are removed from the equation(money, fame, power..ect..). Women want the hottest person they can get too(just as men do). And, if they are model hot, then they can and will have their pick of men. Sure, women can be more forgiving when it comes to the looks department, but at the end of the day the men most likely need to possess great personalities, fame or money to make up for this discrepancy in looks. The OP only wants girls that are waayyy out of his league- this is why 'whatsyourprice.com' has allowed him to have experiences with model types that he otherwise would not have had, up to this point in time.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule when a good looking woman(who probably has a kind heart and is not superficial, in the least)will date a man who is much less attractive than her, but the couple will always get the, 'how did he get HER??' comments and looks, just as the original poster described from his model dating experiences. Also, in the long run, as stated before, there is the social psychology aspect of 'matching hypothesis', which is also known as the matching phenomenon. Most people pair up within their own attractiveness level/ background/ educational level. This is a proven fact and I did not make the rules, but it is what it is.

There is a 'game plan' to get women way out of one's league for casual hook ups(usually, younger, more insecure women), but it will probably not last long, and when it comes to relationships(as the OP seems more interested in than just hooking up), then the original poster should probably try improving his looks and social skills, first(gym, eat healthy, be active and get out with groups of people as much as possible, join running clubs..volunteer).

I believe...I read on another post that this particular poster might have Aspergers...this is another hurdle for him, unfortunately...I have experience with dating a lawyer who had Aspergers..Although EXTREMELY intelligent, it was very hard for him to communicate face to face, within our society's general accepted social norms(reference- Sheldon, from the Big Bang Theory). He would tell me how people would constantly, 'run away from him', after getting to know him...Those with Asbergers have trouble lying and manipulating people, and prefer to be honest and direct(but get really focused on one thing, which could play to his favour if he focuses on improving his looks and social skills). Also, the man I dated with Aspergers could write very well and was extremely smart. I could be misinformed, but have heard this is a typical trait with this condition. The OP should play on the intelligence aspect of this, if it applies to him, as many hot women do get wet for a highly intelligent man.

The OP just needs to be realistic, though, too...if he wants a relationship, then he needs to accept what he can get or improve his looks/ personality/ game, and get a little better quality of woman. Just like, Estate, said...he is not necessarily destined to end up with an overweight and unattractive woman- there are all sorts...perhaps, not models, but not fat either. Maybe, the girl is a 6 and you are a 4...is that sooo bad? Maybe, she sucks dick really well, hehe..jk. Other than that, if he still must have models, then I see nothing wrong with 'whatsyourprice' or 'seekingarrangement', in the short-term, in order to get some experience and hot sex with women way out of his league. Just know that these relationships can and do develop feelings on both sides, and it is not always just about the money, but definitely does open the doors to these women and compensates for them not dating on their own 'attractiveness scale'.

So approaching and learning to meet and interact with women in REAL LIFE is the EXCEPTION?

I give up.

No..not at all. I meant if he wanted to get model type women in everyday life, then that would be the exception happening..Of course, he should try and approach women, whenever he can. It is hard with Aspergers, though. That is why I mentioned, at the end of my post, he should try to work on social skills, gym and get out and about and talk to people whenever he can.

Thank you both for your in-depth feedback.

I did not only date models on whatyourprice and there are many girl-next-doors there too. The Persian girl was not a model ; she was a 21 year old university student from Tehran, Iran studying microbiology and living in CA while going to school. She was more cute-beautiful than hot, but definitely very pretty and seemed a little socially awkward herself. I did not feel as intimidated by her as I did with many of my other dates from the site. Before her I usually dated women in their mid-20s to early 30s that were usually very outgoing on the date. She was my youngest date (7 year gap between us), 5’3”, petite, and she was also on the shy side and seemed kind of childish. I felt like I could make fun of her almost, hehe but at the same time she was also more intelligent than the average girl I have dated there. She was not an aspiring model or actress so I actually liked that, and like I said she was really gorgeous but in a cute way (she will be probably be hot when she is a little older).

When I first started with the site I used it more out of curiosity. But by the fall of 2012 I made the decision to begin a mutually beneficial relationship and tailored my profile with that in mind. In the beginning I filtered out all the members that selected NSA, mutually beneficial relationships, married dating and was hoping to “start” something as if all is normal. During that time frame the dates were completely platonic and they had to initiate the hugs. I changed my objective by fall 2012 and decided to “break bad” and become an entry level sugar daddy and started to wink at girls that selected mutually beneficial relationships as their dating preference. So yes I was willing to pay an allowance to weasel my way into a relationship with a beautiful woman. It’s interesting to see what women really think they are worth though on that site! The Olivia Wilde look-alike model I received my first kiss from on that site thought she was worth $150. Other girls that are like 6s and 7s will think they are worth $200-$250. Like I mentioned I usually spend between $100-$150 and $200 at the most.

The thing that was really getting me mad was that I kept failing with women on the site even though I was willing to support them financially. I was like “I can’t even do that right!” I believe I beat around the bush with the topic though, so what I had written in my profile did not necessarily mirror my actions. With this world of dating like you said I should have verbally offered to help them out. However with the date I mentioned that invited me over to her house for the second date, there was no real monetary expectation she had with me. I definitely did not fit the caliber of men she dated since she mentioned being engaged to a Wall Street banker at one time and I was 2 years younger and just making a modest income. I visited her just 2 days prior to her moving out of state, so I think she potentially saw me as someone to hook up with that night but I chickened out and acted asexual. It also didn't help that we smoked cannabis together which made me cautious and reserved.

Lastly I'm no Danny Devito!! I think women always envision short men as being stocky and fat, but I'm really thin (120-135 lb most of my 20s). I did get to a point where I was skinny fat though and I had a gut but was skinny but with no muscle tone everywhere else. I have been using kettlebells diligently for almost a year straight. So compared to the past, I have lean muscle definition in both my upper and lower body. The kettlebell seems to help develop the "sexy" type of muscles, which is why a lot of women use them I think, even though their roots lie with Russian body builders. I have a "V" shaped pelvic/core muscles now, which is cool and has boosted my confidence a little. Plus I got Lasik so I don't wear glasses anymore. I'm not that bad looking and would say I'm at least a 5. I mostly get "your cute" or "you look so young for your age" versus being considered a sexy looking man. Women that are 7s can drop down to a 5 without all their makeup on, which I can attest to and when all things are equal my attractiveness level and features would be on par with theirs.

Estate said:

I don't know anything about that website but it sounds like an even bigger false economy than traditional websites.

The girls are in it for money, do you really want that? I can't see anything coming from a website like that unless you have serious cash to keep a girl interested.
I think your major problem is that you seem to have not been with many women yet expect to have a Persian Model girlfriend? It's just not realistic my friend, I mean, it could happen and I hope it does for you but most guys are not that lucky to get the girl of their dreams right off the bat and I don't think paying for it is the way to go. It's not real success.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, I'm just saying it because I feel you need to get out in the real world, set more realistic goals for yourself and work your way up to meeting better and better girls, but you need to start from the beginning and just start meeting girls for real! As you improve they will like you for YOU. When money is involved it's just not for real.

While the things you can learn on this site are so great, I don't think they apply to this sort of dating... I mean... I when you talk of auto-rejection from not following up quick enough... was it really that or was it because she didn't see another pay-day coming soon enough.
In the real world the things you learn here are for real and money is not involved in squewing peoples impressions and logic.

Best of luck man.

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Estate you make many valid points which have haunted me throughout the process. I am not that naive about the whole thing. There is a touch of stubbornness involved which you both pointed out. Since I have not had luck at all with women in the real world I have used this as a shortcut to get attractive women since I've waited so long. I am not dumb enough to believe they would actually care about me, I just want to find someone that can "tolerate" me and my antics. I have used escort services in the past, but I usually felt lonely and unfilled afterwards. Yes it's fun for the hour you see them but just knowing that they are watching the clock and getting ready for their next client takes away from the fantasy. Plus after the encounter I am back alone again. So I wanted to solve this problem by getting into a mutually beneficial relationship where I pay the girl an allowance for companionship for however long our arrangement lasts.

I started reading Chase's articles in April and I have noticed improvements in my interactions by applying some of the techniques. I used the text message article tips while texting dates and it seemed to improve my ability to get a response back and arrange a second date which was near impossible in 2012. It is true that many of the ladies probably stopped responding because I was not promising enough of a benefactor, but others I really think were due to my many mistakes made. I have a knack for getting myself in those "shoot your foot" situations and making women go into auto-reject mode. Yes this is a bad way of meeting women compared to meeting them in real life and developing game and I am in full agreement with that. I just am pretty sure that I could have had some hookups, flings, and arrangements made if it weren't for my poor social skills.

Chase did post an article about dating narcissists and I would say 90% of the women on there ones so in a way I could be learning things from the experiences. He did mention that narcissists go into auto-reject faster than average so my aloofness may have ruined some opportunities. Like I said I would wait 2 weeks many times to recontact women after a date. It is possible that being in a relationship with a narcissist will force me to strive for success and not just be satisfied with being an average Joe and making a modest income my whole life.

I believe...I read on another post that this particular poster might have Aspergers...this is another hurdle for him, unfortunately...I have experience with dating a lawyer who had Aspergers..Although EXTREMELY intelligent, it was very hard for him to communicate face to face, within our society's general accepted social norms(reference- Sheldon, from the Big Bang Theory). He would tell me how people would constantly, 'run away from him', after getting to know him...Those with Asbergers have trouble lying and manipulating people, and prefer to be honest and direct(but get really focused on one thing, which could play to his favour if he focuses on improving his looks and social skills). Also, the man I dated with Aspergers could write very well and was extremely smart. I could be misinformed, but have heard this is a typical trait with this condition. The OP should play on the intelligence aspect of this, if it applies to him, as many hot women do get wet for a highly intelligent man.

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You nailed it! Asperger's Syndrome alone is a hurdle even with the other factors out of the equation. Women really do seem to really run way from me when I try to pursue them. I don't even know how to go about making friends to be honest. The ones I have found me, not the other way around. I can't really say I have a friend that I made on my own, which makes finding mates and even just female (and male) friends very difficult. I feel that I am a very genuine person and I do prefer to be honest and look at a situation from all angles. People with Asperger's typically have dull facial expressions and don't smile much but I am different in that regard. I always smile and often too much and at inappropriate times so I have wrongfully been accused of being a smart ass or trying to cause trouble in the class when I was just daydreaming to myself. I constantly get asked "why are you smiling...what so funny?" and this has happened on dates too. When I was young the teachers would always remark how poor my posture was, I always walked looking at the ground, and did not make good eye contact with people. I often get accused of speaking too loudly in places where you should whisper or lower your voice. I am the office loner and always eat by myself listening to my iPod.

Yes we can get really focused on one thing and often it can be something obscure. I remember as a kid I developed a narrow focus for World War I. Anytime I went to the library I always searched for any book about World War I I could find while other topics would be secondary and not as important. I focused on years a lot, so I would think WWI started in 1914 and I will turn 30 on the hundred year anniversary of the start of the Great War (how cool I would think to myself). Or I would get really interested in a certain sound made in music, not necessarily caring about the song as a whole or even the lyrics. In the early/mid 90s I asked myself how do they make that shimmery watery sound in their guitars??? Songs like Come As You Are You from Nirvana, Cranberries songs, The Rooster by Alice in Chains, lots of 90s alternative HA! It remained a mystery to me until I started buying guitar magazines and figured they were using chorus/flanger peddles and heavy doses of reverb. I also would wonder why I wasn't born left-handed and it actually really bothered me. I would count the number of left-handed people in the class and try to see if there was anything different about them. I ultimately ended up experimenting with it and it took about 10 years before I could write fluidly with it, so now I am partially ambidextrous. Seem to think about things no one else gives a rat's ass about.

I put a lot of focus this year into using the kettlebell. I created an Excel spreadsheet with formulas that tallied up each repetition I did for each individual exercise. I also added an area for pull-ups an push-ups. For some reason tracking numbers in this fashion made me more motivated to use the kettebell. I could see that in one week I did 568 combined repetitions of some sort and by Week 12, 6000+ I have been tracking numbers since last October and it is cool to see the difference it has made and just knowing how much reps I have done in a year's time using the kettlebell and doing push-ups/pull-ups.

I see I was right about you being able to write well And you seem like an interesting and quirky guy with some of your life experiences you have written about(some girls do dig quirky guys!). I am a bit of nerd, so I really enjoy reading about history(especially, WWII and Europe). If only a face to face date was as easy as writing about yourself and your experiences, right? I totally get it...and I apologize about the Danny Divito reference, as I love 'It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia', and just thought of him as an 'example', albeit, a bad looking example, but was just making a generalization regarding looks on a shallow level. I was doing that with the Persian model thing as well...I did not mean you 'literally' only wanted models but perhaps were getting depressed a lot over not being able to pull 'model type looking girls' way out of your league(life is too short for all that depression!). It seems you have become fixated on having a certain type of woman as your girlfriend, but do not give up. I know the man I dated with Aspergers mentioned having had this depression over not being able to keep close relationships, or even friendships...I really felt bad for him as not everyone is educated on this condition, and do not know how to 'handle' the person. I know he would say things that I did not want to hear sometimes, but it was refreshing to be with someone so honest too In a world where people can be a bit 'fake'(in US and southern US, especially) blatant honesty can be a refreshing breath of air. So, people can view this as negative or positive. Your not being able to lie or cheat on your partner(probably) would be quite a positive for many women, no? Socially awkward can be a hurdle but is not the end of the world, in regards to your dating life.

Okay...I do have to disagree with all the women on that site being Narcissists..I have an experience with one of those too and I can tell you that I did not meet him on that site but in the real world. Narcissists are everywhere, due to the 'me generation' and parental neglect from their childhood(most likely). They are empty people who will never truly be happy. Just because a woman is self centered or is 'in it only for the money' does not make her a narcissist. Narcissists want validation..CONSTANTLY. And they usually do not want money involved in the equation as they are trying to validate themselves in other ways that do not include money. Anyway, I digress but I am no narcissist. I have been in beneficial arrangements because I like the direct approach and do not like being manipulated or led on, and the men I have seen want the same in return. To me, it cuts out all the wondering and waiting. If I met someone on there, or in the real world that I fancied enough to settle down with, then I would. But, at this point in my life I am looking for 'direct' and 'to the point'. Women my age do not have time for men just trying to play games or whatnot. I started it because I had taken custody of my two nieces last year, and did not have time for traditional dating. I also needed financial help from a sugardaddy, due to my increased responsibilities. However, Im sure there are plenty of 'not so nice, good or caring' women on that site...but they are not all bad. I knew another girl on there whose husband left her for someone else, then she started taking care of her grandmother..She probably did want something to validate her a little, after being dumped...but she also was looking for something simple and straightforward.

Also, I like you and you seem like a really good guy who is just new to this whole 'arrangement' thing, so I will not take umbrage with your following comment:

"It’s interesting to see what women really think they are worth though on that site! The Olivia Wilde look-alike model I received my first kiss from on that site thought she was worth $150. Other girls that are like 6s and 7s will think they are worth $200-$250. Like I mentioned I usually spend between $100-$150 and $200 at the most.''

While I can see the average Joe male reasoning with this thought, the truth of the matter is this is not always the case. Also, you must be more specific with the price parameters and when you reference, 'their worth?'. Do you mean, $150, $300, 'per date', 'per meeting' or 'per week'? I am not model looking anymore(I used to get asked all the time when younger, but not anymore..lol) but 'just looks' are not always the only variable considered. I enter arrangements based on more than just 'my looks' equaling 'my worth'. Let me explain..if you are looking for the hottest/ smartest girl you can there are those who are drop dead gorgeous, smart, highly educated, well travelled..ect...but these girls are probably smart enough to know their worth and demand accordingly(whether it be an arrangement with money involved, or the real-world where they are waiting to snag the hot investment banker dude). There are also men who only desire arm candy and do not care about a woman's intelligence level. She could be dumb as a rock but the man does not care. This is fine and good, and there is an arrangement for everyone. However, there are those very successful businessmen, who are in the 'arrangement world', and some seek a little more than just 'looks'...These men want an educated woman who has experienced life, is successful, does not have to have sex to make a living but just enjoys the perks of a having a sugar daddy(or, the excitement it can bring). This woman is probably a little older, well-travelled, very educated(Masters and higher), cultured and worldly. Many times she might speak two or more languages. This type of woman would be considered(in the escort world) more of a courtesan. A 'true courtesan' is a woman who demands more money than even the high end escort(look up prices of high end escorts and then 'true' courtesans). These women can hold their own in intelligent conversation with CEOs, managing directors, high level government officials, diplomats, celebrities..ect, ect...However, generally, courtesans only have three or four men that they spend time with(or less), while an escort might see many more. Courtesans demand much, MUCH higher prices, even though they might be much older and not as 'hot' as your average 22 year old super hot, high end escort. Most of these women were also raised in well-respected, and well-to-do families(such as, the daughter of a diplomat). A similar situation can exist with this sort of woman in the sugar daddy dating experience. Sure, some men only want the hottest woman they can get for a quick lay and to be seen out with...However, certain sugardaddy's are looking for more of a traditional relationship(just no long term expectations or drama) with someone on their educational and intelligence level. The whole package, so to speak. For example, I have had many dates in the sugar dating world for more than what you talk of paying. I had an arrangement with a managing director of an investment firm who paid me $300 per date(sometimes more). This went on for three or four months...we never had sex. He was paying for my company and wanted to help me out with my lifestyle. He did not even want sex right away as he wanted a 'classy woman' who he could have good conversation and nice dinners. Of course, it eventually would have led to sex if we had continued the arrangement, but I had to move for my job. My point being that his particular desire was to have a traditional type of dating experience...He could have gotten a 10 to date him for that price, with no sex involved..she would have been much hotter and younger than I was..but he chose something else. I liken it to going to Baskin Robins, or even starbucks as there is something for everyone. I am attractive, but not even close to a 10 or a 9...I am educated with a Masters, have worked abroad in Europe, have travelled a great deal..and modest, hehe. Well, not trying to brag about myself but just using it as an example that everyone has a flavour. There will be someone who wants your flavour as well. Everyone has a type..and there is someone out there(maybe, even with Aspergers too, who would be your perfect fit).

I have no problem helping you out if you have any questions, or need advice. I think you have a lot to offer someone, whether it be in an 'arrangement' or out in the 'real world' with someone you meet at the coffee shop.

Cheers

oh yes, I got on my soapbox for awhile there. I forgot to address your point of arrangement dating and how you mentioned, "you cant even do that right". Do not be so hard on yourself. There is no handbook of what to do at first. If you are still interested in setting up an arrangement with a girl..here is my advice. No..do not wait two weeks after a date to bring up the subject of starting an arrangement, unless you are not interested in her, of course. If you are interested in the girl, then try to bring up each other's expectations on the first or second date, or in a text or phone call(if you are not comfortable with speaking of it face to face), a day or two after the first meeting. That way, you are not wasting each other's time before hopes are up. Also, my advice is to be picky and date around on(seekingarrangement..or anywhere else, if you can) preferably, as most of the girls on there do not require a first date 'payment' for a meet and greet, to see if there is interest on either party. Be picky with who you meet as you can tell who is in it only for the money and who wants a connection as well. I cannot just get into an arrangement with anyone..I am picky in that I must be physically and emotionally attracted to a person before I decide whether or not to pursue things. It is just like regular dating for me, but with perks. I would never date anyone I wouldnt off the site. Ask her 'what she is looking for, exactly, from the site' and what type of allowance she desires. Some women on that site do not want an allowance, but perhaps, just want help with school tuition or books, when needed. For example, if you email a girl before you meet her...and ask what she is looking for..and she responds with an amount before even getting to know you a little..then she might not be what you are looking for. The girls that want to meet and see how they click with you before speaking about money or an arrangement, are more likely to be in it for more similar reasons as you.

Thanks again for the feedback Isis.

You are a bit of a nerd, haha. It is rare to encounter a woman online in a forum who is as long-winded as I. I like World War II too but I always felt World War I was underrated and not talked about as much. Sometimes when I get depressed I think to myself "here I am complaining about not making enough money or never having a girlfriend, while millions of young men died between 1914-1918 in the trenches before their 20th birthday." Anyways I did realize that I often look for a certain type of girl and get infatuated with the idea of her besides judging her by her actual personality. For example in the instance of the Persian girl: I liked the fact that she was from Iran (typically Persians stay with their own kind so it would be cool to have her), that she studied microbiology, that she was a libertarian, that she was shy and slightly awkward. However I seemed to ignore the fact that she really didn't say thank you for anything during our 3 dates. She also didn't even really seem to care if I got home safely, compared to some other women that requested that I text them when I make it back home to make sure I am safe. I didn't mention previously that I traveled quite a distance to see her (the first time driving the other time flying) which also added to my anger over the failure to setup an arrangement between us. Some of the other women I dated wanted to know that I got home safely when I just traveled 30-40 minutes to see them. Not sure if that is a common courtesy thing women do when they get older and younger girls just don't think of those things. I have been guilty of getting infatuated with women, just because they have something rare like red hair and freckles, or that they like a non-mainstream band that I like. I get obsessed over the idea behind them and I think I logically fall for them because they meet the criteria of being unique in my eyes. However again as I mentioned a fail to see the whole picture behind them and may like them a lot even when they exhibit bad behaviors that an alpha male/high status man would not tolerate. The logical infatuation will turn into an emotional attachment over time and then I can't stop thinking about them. Chase's post on that subject helped me see the error in my ways in addition to the one about getting to attached to something before the sale is even made.

I do hope that I can find a woman that will appreciate my quirkiness and brutal honesty. At work I do have the reputation as being someone that is very objective and matter of fact, which is a positive trait in that environment. I have also worked in auditing before because of my attention to detail and willingness to critique employee behavior. I have not told any of my dates or co-workers that I have Asperger's Syndrome but I have disclosed that to a few escorts. I mean I don't really have to try and impress them because the deal is already done. The funny thing is that honesty allowed them to open up to me. I had an appointment that was meant to be an hour which turned into a 4 hour meeting. After the deed we spent the whole time just watching youtube music videos together and talking about life. I have had 2 escorts feel comfortable enough to get into my car to go hang out and chat for awhile, which my friend thought was hilarious. He was like "only you would get involved in a situation like that." He is more of a wam-bam-thank-you-mam type of client that won't talk to the escort at all and will be out the door in 30 minutes. The one from whatsyourprice that invited me over during the 2nd date did something similar in regards to unmasking herself to me. I think I am naturally attuned to deep diving since as an Aspie I hate small talk, so I go straight to talking about deep things. Even though we did not have sex and I just slept beside her in her bed (blue balls!) she felt comfortable taking her makeup off and telling me all about herself.

I do believe she was a narcissist that was going through her own depression. She constantly needed validation of her looks and kept asking me "why did you want to see me?, I am so ugly without my makeup, what made you interested in me?" We looked through her picture albums (various years) on her computer and the focus was always about how she looked in the picture and her insecurities about getting older. In a way this was mind blowing for me. For one this was the first time sleeping over at a woman's house through the night (spent 28 years sleeping alone at night, I actually got insomnia because it was so strange), secondly it was strange to experience a woman opening up like that to me, lastly it gave me a whole different perspective on the power of makeup. I never really thought about makeup on women before and just assumed that is how they always look like. As a man I pretty much look like how I do when I get out of bed in the morning. Just got to brush my teeth, get dressed, and walk out the door. It was weird that this happened and then the escort did something similar during our appointment (all within a months time). Both of them kept saying they loved me (huh?), showed me personal pictures of themselves (validation I suppose), and analyzed out loud our compatibility. The escort was like "you'll get bored with me, you're too smart and logical and I know you will want more." The funny thing is both of these women were older than me!

I actually was not putting down narcissists per say and probably was exaggerating when I said 90% of the women on whatsyourprice fit that personality type. Probably not something the pickup artists will want to hear but many women have had it and want to directly "get" what they want or at least on the short term. It is well known that women crave security and want to be taken care of. Many of the young women seem to constantly mention they are tired of meeting douchebags and feel that their male peers are too immature and not driven enough. So they have the ability to meet successful or promising men straight off the bat and yes I agree that some women see the idea of dating a "sugar daddy" as exciting. I think that part of the problem is that I am pretty young compared to many of the benefactors on those sites. When a young women thinks of getting into a relationship with a sugar daddy, they picture a successful man in his 30s and 40s that has a leadership role and is simply maintaining his lifestyle. Chase touched on this on his article about older men dating younger women. As a younger guy that is not in a leadership (alpha male) role, I would only serve as someone that is only potentially promising and would be potential risk. I try to think that well wouldn't a young woman rather date me (a young man willing to pay) than some 60 year old guy?? In regards to the question you had about women setting their worth via offers on whatsyourprice, I meant their first date price. I have never gotten into a situation where I paid the date a per week or per meeting offer. Maybe that is where I went wrong?! LOL I did not pay my second dates anything, just covered food, drinks, etc. I just thought it was interesting how a model thought $150 was worth her time for a first date, while others thought $250 was worth their time for a first date. The model was no air-head either, she was actually pretty clever and quick-witted. I am fully aware that there is much more to a woman's worth than her looks alone. As you may have picked up from my writings, I would not be happy with someone that is not intelligent or creative in some way. My ideal girlfriend would be a beautiful artist or someone similar to the Persian girl (but with a better attitude). I am even attracted to certain types that are not deemed as beautiful by the media/society (e.g. pale redheads with freckles, strange fetish of mine).

No worries. I like helping and you remind me of the guy with Asbergers I dated. I always felt bad about him because I ended things, due to him being very stubborn about something..but I did not do it in a very nice way, and I still feel bad about that. I did not know how to handle him...Are you sure you are not him? Haha, he loved redheads as well and had a fetish for them too(I have dark brown/ auburn hair but will sometimes add henna or manic panic to make a brighter red). Maybe, it is an Aspie thing. Hey, there are some really hot redheads in mainstraem media..I always had a girlcrush on Julianne Moore! What exquisite bone structure and hair she has! And some of her more recent movies..well, she is not afraid to get freaky on camera..if you have ever seen, 'Chloe' or 'The Kids are Alright'..or, even Boogie Nights, from the 90's.

And yes, while I tend to be direct and straightforward in business and my personal life, I do enjoy writing...often writing long and boring posts that no one wants to read, haha(I tend to prefer reading non-fiction but do love Fitzgerald and his beautiful prose, so go figure). And yes, WWI is overlooked more...(prob due to WWII being more recent and the atrocities done to the Jews)...even though the Germans made so much trouble both times. I still have to go back and re-read every so often, in regards to how WWI even got started, as I forget the details. I do hate reading about the trench warfare, though...yes, those poor men indeed...

Anyway, yes the Persians will tend to stick with their kind(more so, due to their religion/Islam..most often). I am currently seeing someone(if you can call it that) in my real dating life(although, I rarely see him at all because he is always working..He is a partner at a law top 5 law firm)...I dont reccomend getting serious with someone in that positon, if you enjoy seeing them at all, hehe). He is half Iranian. While we have not even come close to being intimate, unfortunately(he is very socially awkward..I wondered if he had Aspergers too, but I think he is just socially inept), but he is one of the most thoughtful and kind men I have ever dated. I wonder if I am wasting my time with him as his family probably expects him to marry a muslim(even though he claims he does not practice his religion). I hope I do not offend anyone by saying that, but have had other similar experiences(not so good) with men not being upfront with their culture and the pressures upon whom they are expected to marry. Many times men of that culture will want to experience the more 'liberated' westernized woman, but would never settle down with one. Well, anyway, I brought the Iranian lawyer up because he will not allow me to pay for anything..ever. He sent me to visit him when he worked in DC for a month, and put me in a very nice hotel. He did not try having sex with me..we have been dating and talking for six months, but rarely see each other as he is always flying around the world for work. He seemed to be much more concerned with my well-being and if I was taken care of, more than any other 'American' man I have been with. However, he was born and raised in the US- I reference the way he dates and his cultural background. He told me that it would be insulting to him, if a woman tried to pay for anything while in his company, and that is how he was raised, due to his culture. I am not saying this belief is right or wrong...Although, with this sort of mindset, do the men also value women as less than their equal?...Probably not the man that I am dating, as he works with so many women in his firm, but who knows? I did not ask him. My point is...Maybe, the Persian girl was used to being treated this way(if she has been dating men from that culture, perhaps?). And, it probably is due to her being younger as well. Of course, I was raised to always thank someone for dinner, their time..especially, if they travelled that far to see me! But, I believe I read where you mentioned she had just moved to the US, from Tehran, recently? If so, maybe she was raised to expect the man to go to all this trouble. I do not know, but am giving her the benefit of the doubt. The mindset can be different when dating in that culture.

In regards to the women you saw, who you think might be narcissists..The escort and the woman from WYP, who kept showing you pictures and asking why you messaged her...They sound very insecure and probably quite self-centered..And who knows, maybe she is a narcissist. I am no psychologist, obviously, but do enjoy reading research journals and articles on such topics. From what I have read, 75% of narcissists are thought to be men. I have read other articles that say 50-75%, but my point being that the general belief is there are more men than women with this particular psychological disorder. And they are not good people, so you should know that. A true narcissist is an EXTREMELY messed up individual. And yes, they can be insecure with their looks(usually deep down, but try not to show it...usually), but that can also just be a narcissistic trait. Most everyone has some type narcissistic trait(s) to a certain degree. I know I do. However, many people just assume someone who has a few traits is a full blown narcissist. Please, dont make that mistake as a true narcissist really is a different breed. The guy I dated(who even confessed that he was a narcissist..before I knew much about the subject), was a horrible person...He lied about being single(he was married). Not that every man who lies about being married is a narcissist..I do not mean that and obviously not the case. Narcissists are habitual liars, though. They enjoy lying and getting you to believe their lies is part of the enjoyment for them. They enjoy likening themselves as if they are in a movie and you are part of their crazy script(they see it like that, anyway). Also, they HATE to be ignored or shown indifference(the worst possible thing you can do to them). If I pulled away from this man(or, he imagined I was), or showed him less attention, then he would freak out and literally call me over and over(to the point of it being psycho). Their being ignored goes back to their childhood, when one or both parents showed them little or no attention(or, the other extreme, where they were only showered with constant attention and taught to only love themselves). They enjoy causing chaos with those around them(the chaos they cause makes them feel important and 'proves' to them they 'matter' and 'exist'). They like to think of themselves as an 'actor' in their own little delusional world/movie, and they are the lead(along with those in their world only being used an extension of themselves to give validation). Any attention, bad or good, is attention all the same, and gives them their supply. It makes them feel like they 'are existing'(even though they have to have constant supply to feel that they truly do exist and are important in this world). They are often loud and known to yell and cause scenes(in work environments too). They always must call the shots and be in control. If I tried ending things with this person, then I would be harassed constantly(how dare I try to end things- that was HIS job when he saw fit). However, if they end things, then they do it very cruelly..the same indifference that bothers them so greatly is their preferred method to give someone that no longer is needed or valued as a source of supply- or, they move on to someone who is perceived more worthy to use and discard. Then, and only then, can they can move on, as they called the shots. A person might see all this attention that they give, in the beginning of a relationship as, ''wow, this person must really like me to pursue me so hard and not give up on us'. But, that is the thing..they hate easy and it is ONLY worth it to them, if it is hard. They do not take a hint..it only motivates them more and makes you seem appear not worthy to them, which makes them want you more. There is persistence, but then there is the type of person who, if they feel or 'imagine' they are not liked by someone, or told 'no'...that just drives them nuts and they focus on changing this percieved narcisistic injury, by getting the person to give them attention, do what they want..some sort of supply for them. It is all a big game to this person. They do not know what love truly is and only say it as 'stepping stone' in a relationship. It has no true meaning for them..just another thing to say and pretend to 'go through the motions' in order to appear like a normal 'good person who is loving'. It is a very unhealthy person, indeed. They are often referred to as 'parasitic' because they only use people who benefit them for their source of supply. They are users of the highest degree and do not care about anyone else's feelings and lack empathy for others as well. There are intellectual type narcissists(who seek supply from their intellectual achievements). These types of narcissists are often asexual and believe they are 'above' the 'act of sex', as that is for the 'common man'. Then, there are the types of narcissists who are not as intelligent, who cannot achieve their supply through this avenue, so they go the route of sexual conquests. They do not feel like a 'man' or a 'complete person', unless they they get their supply by 'conquering' a woman, sexually(which, in their mind..then slowly degrades her and devalues her). Both these types of narcissists are misogynistic(prob due to their mothers as well), and have a deep seeded hatred of women as they are frustrated by them because they need them for supply, but hate to be dependent on someone who is not really worthy of them(esp. if they cannot get what they want from them, but at the same time hate them for it as they need women to give them their narcissistic supply). They hate going through the changes in life, such as marriage and children, as that is for that is what a 'common person' does and they are above that. Yet, they will do it anyway and constantly cheat on their spouse or break the law, as they feel they are 'above rules and laws of any kind'. The guy I was with, who was a narcissist, was the most horrible person I have ever known..He would constantly say he wanted his old life back. I found out that he had just had a baby as well. I get that most men cheat on their wives, have flings or affairs..and I understand that..but this is another type of cheating..it is used to validate them and make them feel worthy and relevant in this world. Sad for their wives and children, as the children are used as extensions of supply as well. And yes, you are correct- the women who are narcissistic are insecure of their bodies and fixate on their looks. That is a sign of narcissism..but then again..aren't most women in westernized societies? There are so many personality disorders to choose from..bipolar, histrionic(which many women are). There is so much pressure on women to look a certain way..and they are judged so much more on looks than men. So, maybe she was a narcissist..or, maybe she was scared of getting old and losing her looks. As they say, and it is cliche but true, 'the more you have, the more you have to lose'. However, you should be glad it did not work out with this woman long-term...sure, maybe she would have been a good lay, and nice sexual experience..but you do not want someone who is that insecure and only wants to talk about herself and her looks as a girlfriend, or future wife, right? I am aging and losing my looks too, but so what? I still look better than most women my age and am a happy person, and thankful to have my health and to be so blessed. If someone doesn't like the way I look, then good..be gone with them. And that goes for other aspects of my person. This comes with age and I wouldn't say I had that attitude in my 20's..I was more insecure back then, even though I looked better. Funny, how some of the prettiest girls are the most insecure. And haha..too funny..of course we look better with makeup(not too much, though!) and hair done, silly! Too funny...yes, you definitely haven't experienced waking up next to your girlfriend with acne and a mud mask on. Not sexy, but if she is a good girl and you know how attractive she can be, then you wont care. Thats love, my friend, lol.

Oh yes, if I haven't bored you enough already and interested...Sam Vaknin is an old but good read on the subject(he is a self-proclaimed narcissist himself. http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistsmalefemale.html and a good article on male and female narcs
http://amseaman.wordpress.com/2013/...ism-and-gender-and-the-evangelical-worldview/
I havent read the post on here you mentioned, regarding narcissists, but I should look at it sometime.

Okay, so as far as travelling and flying to see these women...I would advise you to find someone closer(especially, if you want to have sex at least once a week...I mean, in a regular relationship or that dating site. Long distance anything is harder, even when unlimited funds are part of the equation. Or, I suppose at least get one set up close to you first, maybe..to get more sexual experience under your belt? Well, for what you seem to seek, anyways. Use your money that you would have spent travelling to pursue women in your area..unless, there are not many attractive women in your area? Hopefully, that is not the case.

Cheers and sorry for my ramblings on!

Fuck me dead, is this a type a-thon or something? What ever happened to quality not quantity.

Isis, can men get payed for dating lonely women on this site?

Lucidity, I guess if you don't get layed on these dates you can use the girl to get you pre-selected. Just find another girl looking at you with your model date. Then go over to her and ask her to save you from this model who is obsessed with you and has been chasing you for ages and ask the new girl for her number....but a better option would be to learn to be a PUA.

haha, well my post wasn't meant to give quality advice on PUA, obviously.. It is about some other topics mainly, so don't bore yourself with reading it. I was trying to help someone in a special circumstance. I would never write such a long response on any usual PUA topic on here....

Yes, there are lonely older women on that site...so, have a go and see what some old lady with saggy tits will pay you for some fun ;0 Well, she might have nice perky ones too...who knows, as I haven't looked at the older women on there looking for man candy...

He has Aspergers..look it up. It isn't as easy for him to use PUA tactics as it is for the average guy.

This is a really long thread, and I've only read snippets of it, so forgive me if I've missed anything critical, but just want to weigh in here with this:

People wanting to date in their "attractiveness league" - absolutely true... women don't get dolled up to date ugly men.

That said, maybe 80% of looks (unless you're terribly, horribly deformed!) is within your control - fashion, hairstyle, facial hair, posture, facial expressions, eye contact, movement speed, gestures, body positioning. Women know this very well; most men do not. The difference between a "hot" woman and a "not hot" woman is nearly always hair, makeup, clothes, posture, and facial expressions, and likewise for "hot" and "not hot" men. More on this here: "How Much Do Looks Matter for Romantic Success?"

(here's Jessica Alba with and without makeup... and she's probably one of the better looking stars sans makeup in Hollywood



If you want to date a bleached blonde beach barbie, she's not going to date you if you look like a pale office worker who wears khakis and pocket protectors. She wasn't born bleached, tanned, and scantily-clad; she made herself that way, because she's targeting a certain profile of man (cool, outdoors-y surfer dudes). You can get away with not having washboard abs (though these will certainly help your cause a good deal), but you're going to need to change your dress style and a lot more if you want these girls and you're the pale office dude. You must be what the kind of woman you want wants herself in turn to get her.

On paying for dates - I've known a bunch of different men who paid for sex, and what I've seen is this: a man's level of bitterness and cynicism about women is directly tied to his proportion of using working girls vs. landing non-paid for women. That is to say, a man who's been with 100 women on the merits of his process, personality, and fundamentals alone and who then goes and sleeps with 40 prostitutes is still going to be okay and have healthy views about women. But a guy who's slept with 10 women on his own and paid for sex with 80 women will have very cynical, unhealthy views about women, and will make a lot of claims and have a lot of opinions about women along the lines of, "Women don't really want sex... they want stuff in EXCHANGE for sex," or, "All women are whores; the question is how you're paying for them." These views typically seep over into life in general, and lend these men's lives a stale, depressing air of fatalism and defeatism.

I realize that paying for dates is not quite comparable to paying for sex... but it's pretty close. Actually, it might even be worse; you're spending the same amount of money, but the reward is even less (you don't even get sex). Sure, you'll get conversations - but your brain doesn't care about the logical "facts" of the encounter; it only cares about cost and reward, and forms emotional impressions about the world based off of these. If your brain begins to see "Pay to get date with hot women; no sex results" as "the way things are", it's going to very soon place attractive women so high up on a pedestal that you'll never be able to get them down, and you're more or less damned to a life of dating less attractive women who feel like they're "in your league", or "hot" gold diggers whom you can afford to pay - you'll just behave too bizarrely and uncomfortably around attractive women you AREN'T paying.

I've seen this happen with different guys - there's a point you pass where it's basically game over, you're cynical for life, and you're either going to wife up a gold digger if you have the money, or a fugly girl if you don't, and those are your two choices (which might have been different had you ditched paying and focused on upgrading your own personal attractiveness instead).

Anyway, see this article: "Women on Pedestals."

Lucidity, I'd ditch these dates, and focus on leveling yourself up until you're getting these girls on dates because they want to go on dates with you, instead of because they want the paper in your wallet plus a free meal.

Chase

Re: PAYING women to go on dates (not just dinner)ro

Chase..you make a couple interesting points, but I disagree that paying for dates is even worse than paying for sex...He has been paying for very hot girls that he would not have had a chance with, otherwise($100-200 per date)....their dates could have gone on for hours(he was paying for date, not 'per hour' as I asked him to clarify). Do you know many 'sex workers' that take $100 to $200 for long dates and are attractive?. These women are not sex workers, so Im sure he knows it is like a regular date(sex may or may not happen..that is the dating world). Most high end escorts are much, much more, and charge 'per hour'. And yes, only paying for a woman's time may very well lead to misogynic tendencies..but truthfully, they were probably already there to start with before someone had to 'resort' to paying for sex(in regards to sex workers, anyways...). They are usually very frustrated men who are angry with women because they think, 'how dare they not have sex with them'(if sex workers are their only means for sex). I do not think this is the case with the OP..He has Aspergers. Of course, if you can pull really hot girls for dates and sex, then by all means go for it. But, this particular poster has a hard time making friends..much less getting women off the street to sleep with him. I did not notice he had Asbergers until I had responded to his post a couple times. Of course, this makes a big difference in him using PUA. Not to say that he can't, but certain aspects of it will be much harder. I am all about men having confidence and using PUA to improve themselves and confidence levels...but his inability to read social cues and situations..It is a different ballgame. He seems like a really good guy, though, so I hope you could give him some advice geared towards somone with that type of hurdle, perhaps.

Also, there is more than just makeup used in Hollywood/ professional pics..It is called airbrushing. However, most men I know say that they prefer very little makeup. No man wants a totally different woman when they wake up the next day. But, of course most women look better with it..Ive known everyday straight men that voiced how they wished they could wear it on occasion(due to acne..hehe).